Masterful Magic (HBP Chapter 26, ’The Cave’)

Summary

MuggleCast: Masterful Magic – HBP Chapter 26, “The Cave” (May 20, 2026)

Episode Overview

This episode of MuggleCast is a deep dive into Chapter 26 of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince – “The Cave.” The hosts, Andrew, Eric, Micah, and Laura, explore the symbolism, literary themes, and magical mechanics of one of the book's most intense chapters. Their conversation ranges from Voldemort’s psyche and parenting metaphors to the literary history underpinning the cave setting, and of course, the powerful, emotional cave scene between Harry and Dumbledore.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Magic, Setting, and Symbolism

• Masterful Magic

  • Micah opens by calling the chapter “a masterclass in magic” ([01:30]).
  • Eric points out that the complex enchantments and protections Voldemort places around the Horcrux showcase next-level magic that even Harry, by the end of the series, couldn’t surpass without Dumbledore ([23:03], [24:42]).

• The Cave as Womb and Incubator

  • Eric and Laura delve into the symbolism of the cave, linking it to literary representations of the womb:
    • “The cave itself… feels like it’s representing a womb, or a place where life can grow and flourish.” – Eric ([05:47])
    • Laura expands, “Caves very commonly highlight themes of origins, fertility, and transformation, AKA acting as a womb of the earth and literally the opposite of everything Voldemort is… The cave in Half-Blood Prince acts as an inversion to the standard artistic metaphors.” ([06:25])
  • The hosts discuss how Horcruxes, particularly the locket, can be perceived as Voldemort’s progeny, and the cave as an “incubator” for this twisted life form ([08:57]).

• Parental Imagery & Voldemort’s Legacy

  • “Are Horcruxes the closest thing that Voldemort has to children?” – Eric ([08:57])
  • Laura: “The only life Voldemort ever sets out to create is actually just self-preservation of his own soul… There’s no progeny, no concern about carrying on his bloodline… It’s all about him.” ([10:14])
  • Micah: “He treats them with this kind of twisted parental pride… But unlike a parent, he doesn’t love them as separate beings; they only matter because they are him.” ([11:18])

• Oedipal Subtext & Maternal Connections

  • The cave and the locket are linked to Voldemort’s mother, Merope, with an Oedipal undertone.
    • “It almost feels like an unintentional replication of his own conception and his mother’s pregnancy…” – Laura ([13:33])

• Liquids as Motif in Half-Blood Prince

  • Eric shares an insight: “Half Blood Prince is really the liquids book, if you think about it… Potions, poisoned mead, Felix Felicis, love potions, drinking from the Pensieve, and of course, the potion in the cave.” ([20:11])
  • “Blood is necessary for childbirth, just like it’s necessary for them to enter the cave.” – Eric ([21:14])

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2. The Horcruxes: Progression, Protection, and Parallels

• The Difficulty of the Cave Horcrux

  • “This is the hardest Horcrux to find, and not only find but destroy. It has such strong ties to his mother… Are we meant to take anything from that?” – Micah ([14:10])
  • The group discusses how protections become less intricate with each Horcrux added, suggesting Voldemort may have become less careful as he progressed ([15:33], [27:14]).

• Sentimentality vs. Strategy

  • The conversation probes whether Voldemort’s choice of location (the cave of his own childhood traumas) and object (Merope’s locket) was sentimental or simply strategic:
    • Eric: “There’s something to… a reverent form of protection that he chose this item for this location.” ([12:57])
    • Laura: “It’s clear that he carries a lot of resentment towards his mother… He’s literally going to protect this life with death by surrounding it with death in this earth womb.” ([18:39])

• Comparison to Other Horcruxes

  • The protections for Horcruxes are inconsistent; the cave is the most sophisticated, while others are “just sitting somewhere anyone could find them” ([26:45], [28:53]).
  • “He was willing to gamble with the diary… so it’s clear… he wasn’t just thinking about backup opportunities, but maybe sacrificing a piece of his soul for something greater.” – Laura ([28:17])

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3. Dumbledore, Harry, and the Nature of Trust

• Could Harry Have Done it Alone?

  • Eric asks whether Harry could have triumphed without Dumbledore: “Could Harry ever, and I mean ever, have beaten the cave?” ([23:03])
  • Andrew: “Only Dumbledore could do this… This is a good learning lesson for Harry. That is the point. It’s a great bonding moment as well.” ([23:53])

• Dumbledore’s Mastering of Magic

  • “This is the last chance we get to see Dumbledore in action. We can really begin to understand why he was the only one Voldemort ever feared.” – Micah ([25:11])

• Dumbledore’s Trust in Harry

  • After experiencing the potion’s effects:
    • “By the end… Dumbledore says to Harry, ‘I am not worried, Harry. I am with you.’ …It says so much about just how much he trusts Harry.” – Andrew ([37:04])
    • “Harry’s the only one Dumbledore can kind of control in that way. He can’t tell McGonagall, ‘Hey, look, you will continue force feeding this to me no matter what.’” – Andrew ([38:23])

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4. The Potion Scene: Vulnerability and Subtext

• Analyzing Dumbledore’s Suffering

  • The hosts read and interpret Dumbledore’s pleas while drinking the potion, drawing out possible meanings—childhood trauma in the cave, Ariana’s death, and Hogwarts ([40:21]–[48:19]).
  • Micah theorizes: “Part of me wondered if he’s channeling the children who Tom Riddle took advantage of during his trip to the cave… It wouldn’t be surprising that Voldemort would have included this within this concoction.” ([40:47])

• Famous Quotes

  • “I don’t want. Don’t make me.” ([40:23])
  • “It’s all my fault. All my fault. Please make it stop. I know I did wrong. Please make it stop. I’ll never. Never again.” ([45:22])
  • “Don’t hurt them, don’t hurt them, please, please. It’s my fault. Hurt me instead.” ([46:43])

• Dumbledore’s Vulnerability

  • “It’s so hard to imagine, isn’t it? Somebody physically restraining Dumbledore.” – Eric ([42:39])
  • Laura: “It almost feels like a sleep paralysis thing… He actively wants out but he can’t fight it.” ([44:50])

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5. Odd Connections & Fan Moments

• Liquids and Drinks
  • Running joke: “This potion is just Malört?” ([51:47])
  • Andrew: “Maybe Harry should have tried Accio Dasani. Accio Gatorade.” ([04:31])
• Relevant Memes & Fandom Lore
  • Andrew recounts that at Potter conferences, “they used to hand out condoms that said ‘protect your wand’ on the wrapper.” ([10:03])
• Listener Participation
  • The “links line” brings in fans’ suggestions for what they would say if forced to drink the potion—ranging from “Never gonna give you up” lyrics ([53:26]) to memes from the books and TikTok viral moments ([45:00]).
• Reflection on Endings and Loss
  • The episode ends with the realization that they're “about to be down a Dumbledore” and Harry is once again nearly alone in the face of an uncertain task ([33:09]).

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Memorable Quotes with Timestamps

• “This is a master class in magic to me, this chapter.” – Micah ([01:30], [24:42])
• “The cave itself… feels like it’s representing a womb… and literally the opposite of everything Voldemort is.” – Eric ([05:47])
• “The only life Voldemort ever sets out to create is actually just self-preservation of his own soul.” – Laura ([10:14])
• “He treats [his Horcruxes] with this kind of twisted parental pride… But they only matter because they are him.” – Micah ([11:18])
• “Half-Blood Prince is really the liquids book, if you think about it.” – Eric ([20:11])
• “Could Harry have ever, and I mean ever, beaten the cave?” – Eric ([23:03])
• “By the end… Dumbledore says to Harry: ‘I am not worried, Harry. I am with you.’” – Andrew ([37:04])
• “Don’t hurt them, don’t hurt them, please, please. It’s my fault. Hurt me instead.” – Dumbledore quote ([46:43])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:18] – Reference to prior episode and Dumbledore needing water after the potion
• [05:47] – Symbolism of the cave as a womb (Eric & Laura)
• [08:57] – Discussion over Horcruxes as Voldemort’s “children”
• [13:33] – Oedipal reading and maternal connection
• [20:11] – “Half-Blood Prince is the liquids book” motif
• [23:03], [24:42] – Could Harry have succeeded without Dumbledore?
• [37:04] – Dumbledore’s trust in Harry and the intimacy of their partnership
• [40:47]–[48:19] – Deep reading and fan theories on Dumbledore’s suffering in the potion scene
• [51:47] – Joke about the potion being Malört
• [53:26] – Audience Rickrolls with “Never Gonna Give You Up”
• [55:14] – Quizzage question and episode outro

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Episode Tone and Style

MuggleCast maintains a balance between insightful, often literary analysis and irreverent, meme-inflected humor. The hosts’ banter brings both academic depth and fandom fun, making the episode engaging and accessible while also illuminating the Potter texts through close, collaborative reading.

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Final Thoughts

This episode highlights The Cave chapter’s layered complexity—its literary echoes, magical innovation, and deep emotional stakes. The hosts expertly weave together themes of parental legacy, trauma, trust, and the burden of destiny, all while maintaining their signature warmth and fandom camaraderie. Listeners gain new lenses on one of the series’ most symbolically rich moments and are primed for the final arc of Half-Blood Prince and the lead-in to the series’ final book.

Transcript

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[Micah]

This is a masterclass in magic to me, this chapter.

[Andrew]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Finally they're being nice to me right before I die. Damn. Welcome to Mugglecast, your ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

And we're your Harry Potter friends, gathering to talk about the books and the movies in the upcoming TV show. So follow us in your podcast app and you'll never miss an episode. Every Wednesday and this week, make sure grandpa gets enough thirst quenching water because we are discussing a big chapter, chapter 26 of Half Blood Prince, the Cave. Before we continue, we announced last week Mugglecast Collectors Club Year 5 is here. We have six beautiful new sticker designs

[Micah]

that Finn is excited for those stickers.

[Eric]

Oh wow.

[Andrew]

We have six sticker designs this year for everybody. Maybe the most beautiful set of stickers yet, so don't miss out on these. The form is open now for patrons and you have to Sign up by June 10, 2026 and fill out the form to get this year's stickers. If you are just joining us and want previous year's stickers, don't worry because next year we're going to be making our remaining inventory of past stickers and the Collector's Club card, this beautiful club card where you can put all the stickers if you want. These will all be available for purchase in 2027, so if you missed out, don't worry. Patrons will get a special disc on the stickers next year by the way, if they wish to order the older ones. And the Collector's Club joins many other benefits on our Patreon. So check it all [e-mail] mugglecast without further ado, it's time for chapter by chapter and we're discussing Half Blood Prince Chapter 26 the Cave yes, yes, yes.

[Eric]

I love the episode title in which we last discussed this. It was called Next level Magic episode 417. It was released May 13th. So everybody get ready for the hay fever and allergy season voices that we all have as we talk in this clip about potable water. What you're looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I've collected.

[Laura]

It is from Mugglekast episode 417.

[Micah]

Dumbledore needs some water. He needs some refreshments after having drank this nasty ass potion. And Harry tries as he might to summon water.

[Eric]

He's like, oh, I know this one. I know this one.

[Micah]

Yeah, he's got to go down to the lake, dip the cup in and get some water from there. By the way, would you really want to drink this water? Like, let's talk about this for a second. There's thousands of dead bodies that are floating in this water. It's probably salt water too, on top of it, because I don't think fresh water is coming in from anywhere. This is. This is pretty gross water.

[Andrew]

Well, look, it's better than nothing. Even though it's still pretty bad, I feel like this would just put him in worse health. If you're drinking water that includes dead bodies stewing in it, I just know that can't be healthy. Maybe Harry should have tried Akio Dasani. Akio Gatorade.

[Eric]

He's in the nearest village like that.

[Andrew]

Maybe Tom has a little mini fridge of Gatorade sitting in the back of the cave for this exact situation.

[Eric]

I mean, the poke,

[Laura]

this memory is everything.

[Andrew]

Eric, you cut yourself off.

[Eric]

I had to. I had to. So yes, we're here to talk about an amazing chapter. And during the read through and just after it occurred to me that there might be Another level of sort of textual analysis that we can do, particularly with the setting of this chapter. And I'm gonna reach out to Laura for the assist here because in conversation we've kind of figured out that there is something to point out. And I just fancy the way that Laura is with words when it comes to it.

[Laura]

Oh, thanks. Shucks, thank you. No. So go ahead.

[Eric]

Yeah. In particular, the cave itself. If we think of it, you know, it's this resting place or this hiding place for 1/7 of Voldemort soul. And if we think of it as a place where his soul is. Is existing, then we can kind of see it as almost an incubator. And so it turns out there's some imagery of the cave that feels like almost like it's representing a womb or, you know, a place where life can grow and flourish. So, Laura, say more.

[Laura]

Yeah. Well, first of all, I like Eric, and I had such a good conversation about this over text message yesterday while Eric was prepping this document and everything. And I got really excited because, Eric, when you started pulling in the imagery and, like, how the nature can be really representative of like a womb or an incubator type space, I was like, holy crap. Eric's right. Because art and literature have always drawn metaphorical comparisons between nature and the female form, with caves very commonly highlighting themes of origins, fertility and transformation, AKA acting as a womb of the earth and literally the opposite of everything Voldemort is. When you think about what a womb typically represents, and given Voldemort's background and origin, I think, Eric, you're totally right to consider how the cave in Half Blood Prince acts as an inversion to the standard artistic metaphors and literary analysis that often applies to this type of landscape. So you brought up the point about what's being incubated here. Right. It's a tiny life form.

[Eric]

Yep. And unnatural. Right. An unnaturally developed kind of evil inversion of it. Like, it's unnatural to split the soul. It's even worse to encase it in a container. But then it's being stored here as if it's. You know, we know that if anybody interacted with the Horcrux, what happens with the real locket in the next book? It grows and it can sustain itself and it can gestate into something bigger. And I'm just getting a lot of, like, life and, like, newborn energy from this cave. And at first it started out when I was reading this chapter, I just thought I could make, like, a joke or two because Dumbledore's like, we must penetrate the innermost level and Are you ready to get wet, Harry? And it's just like this funny little kind of joke to be made about this old man showing this young kid how it's done. But then I was like, holy shit. There's actually like this whole, like literary history of this happening. And so I, I'm glad that we could bring it to discussion. And, and having Laura's buy in was crucial.

[Laura]

Totally. Well, you, you asked a really good question here, which is.

[Eric]

Yes. So if we're thinking about this, if we're thinking about this imagery seriously, then it becomes, you know, the question of what, what do we, what does this relate to everything else? So the first question here. Are Horcruxes the closest thing that Voldemort has to children? Yeah, we're not talking about cursed child. Get out of here, Delphi.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, she was unplanned. No way. She was not intentional.

[Eric]

She was an unplanned pregnancy.

[Laura]

A hundred percent.

[Andrew]

It happens even to the Dark Lord.

[Laura]

Yeah. And like, this is, you know, this is why Egypt is so important, boys and girls. But I think it's so interesting,

[Andrew]

both

[Eric]

of them cover your wands.

[Micah]

Yeah, I think there's so many.

[Andrew]

I know, we could do a whole show.

[Eric]

Let's get them all out.

[Laura]

Like, we can totally do this. Like, really elevated, like literary analysis of like, the cave is a womb. And I think that we can also go to the gutter with it if we, if we can find the right moments for it. But quick.

[Andrew]

Can I just say. Quickly, quick. Fan of memory. At the Harry Potter conferences, they used to hand out condoms that said protect your wand on the, on the wrapper. Oh, but hey, good.

[Laura]

Yeah, you know what? Very needed. But anyway, I, I think it's, I think it's so interesting that the only life Voldemort ever sets out to create is actually just self preservation of his own soul. Right? Like, there's no, there's no progeny with Voldemort. There's no concern about carrying on his bloodline. Which is so interesting because as a descendant of Salazar Slytherin, you would think that that would seem to be something that somebody of his mindset would be really like gung ho to do, but he's not. It's all about him.

[Andrew]

Yes, these Horcruxes are definitely his most precious possessions. He does not love anybody. We know this. The closest being he might love is Nagini, who is a Horcrux herself.

[Eric]

Yeah, part of himself. He's flattering himself here I agree.

[Micah]

He. He treats them with this kind of twisted parental pride. His Horcruxes, you think about it, he hides them, he protects them, and he invests enormous importance in them.

[Eric]

Right.

[Micah]

But unlike a parent, he doesn't love them, to Andrew's point, as separate beings, they only matter because they are him.

[Eric]

Yeah, he's extending his own. Like, kids are a great way to leave a legacy behind and to live forever. They say the same thing with teaching. You never know where your influence lies. So teacher is immortal and that. But Voldemort wants to literally be immortal. He just. He's like, I don't need children if I never die. If part of me is out there always, literally me out there always, I won't need any of this. And so the Horcrux has become basically like his children. But putting. Putting it where he puts this one, the locket, and knowing where that locket came from. I'm gonna skip questions chronologically in the doc, but this really reminds me of Merope and the idea that this is his mother's cherished possession that she hated parting with, that. This locket, which was recovered, you know, from his shitty old boss, Borgin and Burke, and recovered from Hepzibah Smith to really represent his mother. And then if we see the cave as like a womb, it's. It is almost sort of like a reverent protect, like, form of protection that he chose this item for this location. There's something to it.

[Laura]

Yeah. And I think what's so interesting about it, too, is that it's probably unintentional. Like, I wonder if there's some kind of, like, undercurrent of, like, an Oedipal. Shoot. What's the word? I'm thinking of? Complex. Excuse me? An Oedipal complex here. The obsession with the.

[Eric]

Oh, I thought you were talking about marijuana.

[Laura]

No, no, no, Oedipal. Oedipal, yeah, I know.

[Eric]

You know, we rarely reference the Greeks on this podcast, so when we do, I just assume we're talking about drugs. But.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, I mean, they often, I think, partook. But I think it is so interesting looking at the fact that he brought something of his mother's that was intended to, you know, seal his own immortality to this unholy incubation chamber. It almost feels like an unintentional replication of his own conception and his mother's pregnancy. Like, I just think there's a lot of subtext we could read into here.

[Micah]

It does make me wonder, though, too. This is the hardest Horcrux really to find. And not only find, but destroy. And it has such strong ties to his mother. Are we meant to take anything from that at all? Or as you're saying, Laura, is it just happenstance that this is where the locket is?

[Eric]

Did Voldemort feel something toward his mother after the initial, you know, shock, or is he just disgusted by her, her weakness? Because remember, at 11 he just assumed that his dad must have been the wizard because his mom, if she were magical, wouldn't have died. And we know that Tom doesn't understand love or how love works. Merope probably had some other issues, but she essentially died of heartache. She didn't want to live because her love, this man that she had given love potion to and conceived a child with, left her when he realized what she had done. And so this loveless union that produces Tom Riddle, a boy who later a man who does not understand love, ends up inverting all of this nature stuff to preserve his own life and does so in a way that is just very reminiscent of, I guess, origins.

[Micah]

I'd also be curious of timeline as to when exactly Tom puts the locket Horcrux here. I mean, we know, or at least we learn, I think in Deathly Hallows that Kreacher was part of this experiment in terms of the placement of the Horcrux. But I'm kind of thinking now, was he more protective? Like, was, was he. Was his approach to hiding his Horcruxes more thought out earlier on? And then he just becomes more and more absent minded as it relates to where he puts them. Like he, he doesn't put as much care or as much thought into the protection around them because we see that, you know, I know we obviously have to complete the story in Deathly Hallows, but it seems like Harry is much more able to find and destroy them in the next book than, you know. This took a lot of work. Presumably this took the whole year for Dumbledore to find this location.

[Eric]

I do want to talk about kind of the implications as we compare to the other Horcruxes. But still getting back to the cave really quickly and talking about like, often Mother Nature is thought of as female and this natural cave seems a perfect setting to harbor something like this. Now I wonder if Voldemort like had to add an extension charm or something because the cave is like massive. But like these things exist just in nature of like, you'll never see them. Underground caves can span for miles and there's like whole cave systems and we're just, you know, above ground, we don't. We don't see it or we don't know it, but it really speaks to like, the vastness of the. The world a little bit and just the amazingness of nature. The fact that a place like this could have been. It just exists inside with a, you know, maybe he put a door on it and couple magical protections. But I wonder if the cave was largely untouched besides that.

[Andrew]

Probably.

[Laura]

Yeah. I mean, we know that he spends some time in this cave as a child too.

[Andrew]

His little hideaway.

[Eric]

And that's the thing. It has like, as. Like, I think we're asking the question, like, is, was Voldemort at all ever once sentimental toward his mom? But this is also a place where he just tortured some kids. So everything about. Everything about. And the locket, yeah, it's a relic of his mom's, but it's mostly a relic. It underscores the Slytherin connection. Like Dumbledore said about Nagini, like, this is Slytherin's locket. And so there's quite a lot about this Horcrux and this locket that has nothing to do with his mom specifically.

[Laura]

But something I'll say, I think does have to do with Merope. That might have inspired why Voldemort was so protective around this particular Horcrux is we have to remember that Merope got ripped off when she sold Slytherin's locket. She had no idea the value of what she had. And so she sold it for like, what, 10 Galleons?

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

And Voldemort had to be pretty resentful of that. It's clear that he carries a lot of resentment towards his mother for a variety of reasons. Um, but, you know, he knows what it's worth. So again, it's really, really interesting imagery to. For him to take something that his mother recognized was her last most prized family heirloom, but she still didn't know what it was worth. And so he's like, I'm literally going to protect this life with death because I'm going to surround it with death in this earth womb. Which is another comparison I find really interesting. If we're like. If we're doing the literary analysis of this place as like a metaphor for the only kind of incubator for life creation that Voldemort could ever conceive of because he's incapable of love and understanding the importance of it. The fact that he brings this, this last piece that he has, the only piece he has that is Reminiscent of his mother to be here in this cave where he not only tortured children when he was a child but now he has infested it with literal death to try and protect his own life. I just think it's so fascinating.

[Andrew]

Incredible, yeah.

[Eric]

Also getting in and out. Here's an interesting kind of question. In order to get in, they have to spill their blood. And in order to leave, they have to ingest the liquid. And I was chatting with Meg about this and something that she said which is just worth bringing up here is that Half Bud Prince is really the liquids book, if you think about it. She said, and this is a weird. It's a weird thing to hear, read out loud. But she says, Harry becomes great at Potions, which are liquids. Ron is poisoned with mead. Dumbledore gets Mrs. Cole drunk on gin. Felix Felicis is liquid luck. Romilda Vane is trying to get Harry to drink a love potion. Harry and Dumbledore are always diving into the liquid, slash gas. Pensive, Dumbledore has to drink the potion to get the Horcrux. Dumbledore pours mead for the Dursleys. Harry and Dumbledore drink wine with Slughorn at the Random Muggle's house. It's just so many liquids. And blood is in the title too. And blood is necessary for childbirth just like it's necessary for them to enter the cave.

[Micah]

He also, Voldemort spills others blood in order to preserve himself.

[Laura]

But again, I think it's such an interesting inversion if we want to keep. If we want to continue along this line of reading to say, you know, in order for someone to get in here and ultimately take this life that is being incubated within it the man just needs to cut his hand, right? And that. That's all you gotta do. Whereas, you know, the woman's experience of creating life is significantly more traumatic. Like, so, again, it's just. It really feels like if you were to sit Voldemort down and be like, hey, where do babies come from? He would have such a simplistic, lacking in any kind of empathetic perception response to that question, which really, it makes this whole cave scenario make sense. Do I think that Voldemort sat down and was like, yes, I'm going to set out to intentionally create this, like, metaphorical incubator for my origin story? No, but I think it's an important part of the way that the story is told that this is like. It is a subtextual piece that points to Voldemort's Entire origin and the way that it shaped his mindset in the way that he approaches life totally and its importance.

[Micah]

And to build off of that too. I think there's symbolism in that. The only way for one to gain entrance to Voldemort's inner world is through pain. It goes all the way back to his conception, you could argue.

[Eric]

So I mentioned earlier, the headmaster is showing Harry how it's done without Dumbledore. The next question is, could Harry have ever, and I mean ever beaten the cave? I mean, this is why the previous discussion was titled Next Level Magic. The type of magic that Dumbledore is using to like, for instance, find the chain that pulls out the boat is so advanced and above Harry's skill level. Even if we look forward and say the end of Deathly Hallows, Harry still could not have beaten the cave with everything that he learned and everything they knew. And neither could Hermione. Yeah, the only person, like, we've never seen magic like this. The closest we've come is what Snape does right after Draco is sect in Soundbird where he's muttering, muttering and murmuring. Yes, it's nobody else.

[Andrew]

It's. It's really cool. And by the way, the full cast audiobook, I'm listening to it as we go through chapter by chapter because the Half Blood Prince one recently came out and I had said that initially I wasn't really into Hugh Laurie as Dumbledore, but he's grown on me a lot. And this is a really cool chapter to listen to. But anyway, you know. Yes, only Dumbledore could do this. Harry definitely could not, like, feel out the magic like Dumbledore is. Oh, but maybe her mind, let's say Dumbledore wasn't in the picture. Maybe Hermione would have found Harry some device that can like track magic or sense it, something like that. But no. Ultimately though, this does end up being a good learning lesson for Harry. That is the point. We're just training Harry here. And this is a great bonding moment moment for Harry and Dumbledore as well. But I'll get into that a little bit later.

[Micah]

Yeah. Building off the title, the last time we discussed this chapter. But this is a master class in magic to me, this chapter.

[Andrew]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Finally, they're being nice to me right before I die. Damn. Yeah, you guys feel a little nostalgic right now. A little sad. We're about to leave Dumbledore.

[Micah]

If not for Voldemort, we wouldn't see this from Dumbledore. So you know, you got, oh, so you, like Voldemort.

[Eric]

Got it.

[Micah]

But to your point, Andrew, this is the last chance that we get to see Dumbledore in action. And I think we can really begin to understand why he was the only one Voldemort ever feared because of just how good he is. In this chapter.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And also in this chapter, Dumbledore's like, oh, I know this boy too well. He's being so predictable with some of these moves. I taught him everything he knows.

[Eric]

Right? Like Dumbledore is absolutely critical of Voldemort's whole thing. He's like, oh, this is so obvious and this is so callous. But then at the end of it, when Dumbledore has been deeply weakened by taking the potion, Dumbledore is forced to concede that it was in the end a well designed kind of trap and hiding place that one wizard alone, even Dumbledore alone, wouldn't have been able to do it. And so the next natural question that I have is in terms of all the books and in terms of Mike, you were saying this earlier that the other Horcruxes that sometimes seem haphazardly placed on top of a shelf in a room of requirement where Harry's been hundreds of times already, does this cave that ends book six set an unreasonably high expectation for us as readers? In terms of Horcruxes and how they are protected, how they are guarded and how difficult the task ahead for Harry is.

[Andrew]

It is surprising how uneven the Horcrux hiding is. Some just accidentally get destroyed, others are just sitting somewhere anyone could find them. And then there's this one that's allegedly a, an alleged one that's a tough nut to crack. So no, I don't think really it's an issue. I think this is again an opportunity for Harry to become prepared for the road ahead. So in that way it's good that it's this difficult.

[Micah]

There's definitely almost like a progression of difficulty, but it works in the opposite direction. I think there are ones that you can look at like the locket and the cup that are extremely well protected in terms of, and I would say the locket is, is the hardest probably of all to, to retrieve. But let's not forget inside of Gringotts there's a dragon also down there and there's a curse placed on the vault itself. So I think that maybe at one point Voldemort was extremely intentional about how he wanted to protect certain Horcruxes. And then just as time went on. The more he created, the less he really focused on. On the actual protection of them. Just because he had so many, he thought, oh, well, you know, there seems to be a bit of that going on.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, I mean, he was definitely willing to gamble with the diary, which we talked about a couple of episodes ago. So it's clear that he, in wanting to create seven pieces of his soul, he wasn't just thinking about giving himself seven, like, you know, backup opportunities, but maybe giving himself, you know, more opportunities to maybe sacrifice a piece of his soul in order to obtain something greater. Like reopening the Chamber of Secrets, for example.

[Eric]

Yeah, it's just very lucky that Dumbledore took Harry to this one. And it's, it's not like. And it's not like Dumbledore knew where all of them are or were and didn't do anything about. It was like, I'm gonna get Harry to this one. Because he couldn't do it on his own. But no, if the Horcrux weren't, in fact fake that they pull from the basin here, which we're about to get into, this would have been. The only way that Harry could ever have succeeded is if Dumbledore specifically took him to this one. And Dumbledore specifically fixed this and got them through this. So. So it is interesting because I think that going into book seven, I was expecting a lot more of this. And yet, to Andrew's point, like, some of them are destroyed accidentally. Even the diadem is accidentally destroyed. It's not like the diary was. Harry just happened to have a Basilisk fang near him and he accidentally destroyed it. Somebody happens to cast what endless fire in order to kill the diadem. But like, some of the ways in which the Horcruxes get destroyed are vastly different than the intention that was set behind the protections of this one. So it's, it's, it is uneven. I guess this is, in the end, the best word for it. But do we, going forward and looking ahead, like, we understand that unfortunately this, this locket was a. Was a fake, was a duplicate. And it's an extra gut punch that we go into book seven without having Dumbledore there to guide us because he was so instructive and informative. And I kind of expected his, like, feeling the walls magic style to have to be something that is learned. Or maybe like, if Remus Lupin was going to join the trio on their quest, maybe he heard hell of some kind of magic like this. Like, I fully expected that to come up again. And so I was slightly disappointed when it didn't. That we, it turns out we don't need to know everything Dumbledore knows, magic wise.

[Laura]

Yeah. I guess this for you is kind of like what the Department of Mysteries was for me. Because I was like, oh, I love that comparison. That we were gonna go back to that and that was gonna be relevant. And it was like, nope.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Cause it's so interesting, right? Our brains are just like the possibilities are wild and they just blaze through it. Even Gringotts, which is. Yes, you're right. Like Micah, that's like probably comparable level of security protection but that this one was designed by Voldemort and that one was designed by Goblins and whoever else. And so it's, it's equal protection. But they don't have that sinister mind behind them planning like what you have to do to get through getting out of Gringotts is a tall order. But the way that Harry and co just kind of, I mean for all their planning, in the end it's just a slap, dash, run guess, you know, hope for the best.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Style of things. The same way they do everything.

[Andrew]

But this, like I was getting at earlier, is Harry and Dumbledore's last great adventure. It helps Harry prepare for the road ahead. So it wasn't all a waste. It ultimately was A, an incredible scene as we'll talk about more shortly. But B, it's very meaningful in hindsight that Harry and Dumbledore had this one last opportunity together. Dumbledore trusted Harry to go with him. He trusted him to do the hard work when Dumbledore needed his assistance.

[Micah]

It's about time he trusts him.

[Andrew]

Yeah, but Micah, it's. What do you think here?

[Micah]

Yeah, it's a tough bezoar to swallow right in that because. And we'll feel this in a couple of chapters, but Harry is more or less right back where he started before going to the cave. And I know that without going there he wouldn't ultimately be able to track down the real Horcrux. But the RAB message doesn't give him anything. And so as somebody mentioned, we're about to be down a Dumbledore. I think Eric, you mentioned that. And Dumbled down.

[Andrew]

Dumbled down.

[Micah]

We're Dumbled down and beginning the hunt for. For four Horcruxes with very little intel on where they might be located. Like it seems like an insurmountable task. And I think the easiest Horcrux probably if you were to go through and kind of like rattle them off for him to find is actually Nagini because he knows where she is. She's with Voldemort. But the others, the the cup, the diadem and the locket. Anybody's guess in terms of where they might be.

[Eric]

We'll get into more of Harry and Dumbledore's interactions in the cave after a word from these sponsors.

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[Andrew]

Eric, I really like how you named this upcoming segment.

[Eric]

Oh yes, thank you, Andrew. We're back to talk about the Secrets of Dumbledore. I you know something about that. That phrase just rings to me. It's like, oh yeah, he's got Dumbledore has many things. He has many trinkets in his office. But this is not a discussion on those. This is a discussion of the types of secrets that Dumbledore has kept. Not just from Harry, but probably from everybody. Probably very few people know anything about Dumbledore, really. And the same way that in the previous chapter when we were talking about last week on Mugglecast, we talked about how Dumbledore kept the re revelation that Snape was the one to overhear the prophecy from Harry for Harry's whole life. The potion that they have in the cave removes the inhibitions that Dumbledore has. He sees something. Dumbledore experiences something. He sees people. He's begging and pleading with people. He is admitting fault. Another thing we've never seen Dumbledore do.

[Andrew]

Not once.

[Eric]

Like, you know, if you accuse Dumbledore of something he tells you, don't for a second assume that things are unprotected. I know everything. I'm great. I care. And yet we see him so humbled by this experience. And so my question and the interest in calling this the Secrets of Dumbledore is that quite apart from whatever Dumbledore's wishes were going to be, he is forced to relive something. And Harry is forced to be a witness to whatever is going on here. And whatever is going on, I think points to some real trauma in Dumbledore's

[Andrew]

yeah, and reading this now we know that he's hours from death, which I think adds to what's spilling out of him. He knows he doesn't have too much time left. So even though this is. This potion is clearing his inhibitions, maybe he also has that in the back of his mind that, you know, I don't have much time left. And he's reflecting on his life and it's hitting him really hard, I think,

[Eric]

even though they're so close to death, this moment and what Dumbledore made Harry promise to follow his orders, you know, to the T. Nothing short of that. Like, this is a bonding moment for Harry, having to do the unthinkable and force Dumbledore to keep drinking the potion that is clearly causing him indescribable agony.

[Andrew]

Yeah, and we're gonna read a few lines that Dumbledore says here in a minute. But first I just wanted to bring up that by the end of this, Dumbledore says to Harry, I am not worried, Harry. I am with you. And he said something similar about his trust in Snape, last chapter. But what does it say about his relationship with Harry that he was willing to have Harry witness such a painful experience for him in drinking this potion? Did he, did he know he was going to experience such a thing? He knew it was going to be difficult. Maybe he didn't know exactly what was going to happen, but he felt confident that Harry could be there for this. And I think that says so much about just how much he trusts Harry. But it also makes me wonder, is there anybody else he would have brought along for this experience?

[Eric]

Oh, if Harry said no. Harry said no.

[Andrew]

If Harry said no. Yeah. Like, who else does Dumbledore Trust this much? McGonagall would be my first inclination. Snape, you think Snape?

[Laura]

Yeah, I think McGonagall would try to talk him out of doing it this way, though.

[Micah]

Really?

[Laura]

I think, Yeah. I mean, I. It's really hard for me to think about who would be next up on the list and willing to say, yep, I will come with you, no questions asked. And I will do exactly what you tell me to do, no questions asked.

[Andrew]

Like, that's the key, isn't it?

[Laura]

Yeah. He's the only one.

[Andrew]

Harry's the only one that Dumbledore can kind of control in that way. He can't tell McGonagall, hey, look, you will. You will continue force feeding this to me no matter what.

[Micah]

Yeah. I think there's probably almost like a sympathetic nature to most other characters where they would stop at some point because of just how terrible of A situation this is to witness. Whereas also, Harry is a. He's a teenager, but he's a child. And there's something to be said for taking instruction from an adult. And he's willing to do that. And he probably goes farther than I think anybody else, maybe, with the exception of Snape. I still think Snape would have been somebody who would have obliged in this situation. He understands potions also. But, yeah, I'm hard pressed to think of another character that would sit through this and be party to what happens to Dumbledore. Yeah.

[Eric]

Yeah. So, so let's talk about. Now. I, I'm, I'm blown away because I often think that everything that Dumbledore is saying is, can be, can be taken from multiple angles. Right. So, you know, I don't want. Don't make me. Can mean things like, don't make me drink this potion. I don't want to drink this potion. Or when he says things like, it's all my fault. Don't. Don't hurt them, hurt me. You're thinking, could this be relating to Ariana? Could this be relating to something in his past that he's really like? If he's. If basically the potion is doing what dementors do and making you relive the worst parts of your life and really sit with that. What in Dumbledore's past could they be evoking? But, Micah, you have low key blown my mind here.

[Micah]

I didn't say anything.

[Eric]

Not yet. Not yet. I'm queuing it up because for this first quote that we want to go through. I don't want. Don't make me. It says in the book. Dumbledore panted and then spoke in a voice Harry did not recognize for he had never heard Dumbledore frightened like this, as terrifying as that is. Becky, you have a theory?

[Micah]

I do. Part of me wondered if he's channeling the children who Tom Riddle took advantage of during his trip to the cave. We know that they didn't come back the same and there's probably echoes of what Tom did to them inside of this cave. And so it wouldn't be surprising to me that Voldemort would have included this within this concoction that he put together. I do think there's like a progression as we go through that. We do enter into moments of Dumbledore's past. But here I do think it's possible that this is one of the children. He's saying to Tom, like, I don't want to do this. Don't make me do this, whatever this is, I don't know, but the potion could be.

[Eric]

This blows my mind. I don't think I've ever thought about this. So if the potion is making whoever is drinking it relive the moments of torture that happened to the children that that riddle did.

[Laura]

Yeah, I love that.

[Eric]

Yeah. So the next quote. This is from the book. Harry stared into the whitened face he knew so well at the crooked nose and half moon spectacles and did not know what to do. Quote, don't, like, want to stop, moaned Dumbledore. And Harry is forced to say, you can't stop, Professor.

[Andrew]

We can't stop. We won't. Yeah.

[Eric]

And I think.

[Micah]

Is that Chapel Roan, too, or.

[Andrew]

No, that's Miley Cyrus.

[Eric]

It's Miley.

[Andrew]

But I think these first three. The one we just read, and I love Micah's interpretation, too, and this one and then the next one. I think Dumbledore is also in a bit of a transition period. As he's taking this potion, he's transitioning into what he ends up experiencing in a few minutes. That's sort of my read on this.

[Eric]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to. I don't want to. Let me go. That. That's the interesting thing. Even just this line, I don't want to. I don't want to. Let me go. It is so hard to imagine, isn't it? Somebody physically restraining Dumbledore.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

And where to, where he has to say, let me go. Dumbledore is Dumbledore. There is. There is. No, you can't. It's hard to imagine anyone ever having or getting a hold on him that facilitates him to say, let me go.

[Micah]

But is it Dumbledore? Like, again, is it Dumbledore going back

[Eric]

to the kids in the cave?

[Andrew]

Or it could be Dumbledore thinking about he's going to be dying soon. I don't want to die. I don't want to. Let me go. Get me out of this already.

[Micah]

The other.

[Eric]

But, like, the.

[Micah]

Yeah, the other piece of this, too, that, I mean, we talked a little bit or alluded to this earlier is like, creature goes through this as well. Like, could this be, like, almost like, does it absorb the experiences of the people who actually drink it?

[Laura]

Maybe, Maybe. I mean, we've definitely seen how. I mean, the real locket, Horcrux brings out the deepest insecurities. And I mean, for Ron, certainly. But it. It's definitely a bummer for whoever's having to wear it. So if you think about the Horcrux, if it was here for what, 10 years or so before Regulus came in? Like, think about the damage it did to the surrounding environment just by being there.

[Eric]

Wow.

[Laura]

So, yeah, I mean, that. I think that reads perfectly into the narrative of, like, anyone who has ever befallen something horrible in this cave. The Horcrux probably just took all of that in and is foisting that upon whoever is stuck drinking this potion.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Yeah. So. No, no, no, no, no. I can't. I can't. Don't make me. I don't want to again. How could anyone make Dumbledore do anything? He's Dumbledore. It's terrifying.

[Laura]

It almost feels like a sleep paralysis thing. Like the fact that he. He actively wants out and doesn't want to be doing it, but he can't fight it.

[Andrew]

As an aside, this scene has gone viral on TikTok from the movie. And the caption is, when you have an unlimited drink package on your cruise and you have to keep drinking. Oh, go this one. I w. I was on a cruise and I did the unlimited drink package a couple weeks ago. I should have done that meme since this was coming up in our chapter by chapter reread.

[Eric]

Okay, that's hilarious. So the next. There's more words to analyze. This is a longer sentence. It's all my fault. All my fault. Please make it stop. I know I did wrong. Please make it stop. I'll never. Never again.

[Andrew]

Yeah, this.

[Eric]

What the hell is going on here?

[Andrew]

Related to Ariana? I think this, in the next two

[Eric]

passages is somebody threatening. Because, like, I think a popular theory and the operating theory, the last time we discussed this was that Dumbledore is reliving a moment where he was in conflict with Grindelwald over Ariana.

[Andrew]

Yeah, well, I mean, it could be a mix of things. It's all my fault he feels guilty for the death. Death of Ariana, but also make it stop. I kind of think he's just referring to stop making me go through these memories. Stop.

[Eric]

Like this exact potion.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Stop making me drink this. Even though I have the unlimited drink package.

[Eric]

I paid for it and I regret everything I know I did wrong in buying it.

[Andrew]

You must keep drinking.

[Eric]

You must, sir. You must.

[Laura]

Professor.

[Micah]

To me, this is the point where if we were to take on the kids in the cave theory, the Amy and Dennis theory, like, this is where it switches, right? This is where it goes over to being about Ariana and. Yeah, it's tough to read.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah. Don't hurt them. Don't hurt them, please. Please. It's my fault. Hurt me instead. This is a side of Dumbledore we don't often see too, because Dumbledore at times is perfectly fine with, or at least decides to cause harm to others. Um, so the whole hurt me instead aspect of Dumbledore doesn't necessarily track for me. And it's weird to hear him say, don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please. Because again, who would have this level of power over Dumbledore to be causing harm when Dumbledore doesn't want that to happen? The only person I can think of is Grindelwald, right? Because if there was this boy that Dumbledore admired and it turned out that he was a real slime, which sister Preach, you know, And Dumbledore feels trapped and unable to either get himself out of that situation, or if he feels unable to act against Grindelwald and cause him harm, then he would feel trapped and he would start saying things that sound a lot like these quotes to my mind.

[Micah]

I remember one of the other theories at the time, before we really got to learn any more about the backstory of the Dumbledores, was that it was possibly somehow related to Hogwarts and the students there, that either something happened in the past or perhaps he's looking ahead to the future. I don't know how the potion would. Would allow for that, but we know the school's about to be invaded by Death Eaters in just a couple of chapters.

[Laura]

It also makes me wonder, you know, because we talked, I think, last episode about, you know, what was the inspiration for Dumbledore wanting to be so fierce about Horcruxes not being taught in the Hogwarts curriculum. And we talked about, you know, maybe he. He sees. He saw already the connection between Hallows and Horcruxes, and due to the history that he helped create with Grindelwald, maybe he's been carrying this anxiety for decades that someone's going to come along and be inspired by what we had initially set out to do. So maybe he feels responsible for this current conflict in a way makes sense to me.

[Eric]

So let's move over to odds and ends. Wrapping up our discussion here, we mentioned that, of course Albus is forced to concede that it was a pretty good charm. And I'm glad actually to that Harry does. Again, he kind of fumbles with the. He breaks the lake surface in order to get Dumbledore come to and gives him the dirty water. But in the end they make it out, right? They make it out. And so do we have any Other connections that we found or made.

[Micah]

I would just say the. The one thing to keep in mind is he makes this comment that one alone could not have done it. And so as we are thinking about what is to come with the remaining Horcruxes, the. Well, specifically as it relates to the locket and knowing that it is going to be found out to be a fake, this knowledge that Dumbledore drops, that's very subtle. That one alone could not have retrieved should have hopefully stuck with Harry. I don't really think it's. It does, but it's a nice little nugget by the author.

[Eric]

Oh. Because the fact that Dumbledore is. And I trust him 100%. His assessment that no, not even I could have done this alone means that there were two people, not just one. So two potential leads who know the situation with R and B. That makes sense. That makes sense to me a lot. And looking forward, it could be a metaphor for the rest of the series that no one person can do this task like not just Ron and Hermione, but also Crab for some reason and you know, Neville can all take part in destroying Horcruxes. So. All right, well, we asked over on our links line a very fun question. Good job, Andrew. And the question is you are drinking from the basin and going through all the feelings. What are you screaming to the person who is forcing the liquid down your throat?

[Andrew]

So I'm one of these people who's very squeamish with like things I don't like. And I would just be doing those Voldemort noises when he's battling in deathly hallowed, just f my life, that type of thing.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

How about you, Eric?

[Eric]

I would say. Can I get a health drink please? This is. This potion is not a health drink.

[Andrew]

A chaser. Give me a chaser.

[Eric]

They gave the chaser. Yeah. Oh, God. This is exactly how I feel like when I had Malort for the first time.

[Laura]

Awful.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Eric]

I'm glad we all have that experience.

[Laura]

Do we all? Can we declare canon that this potion is just Malort?

[Andrew]

Sure. I found a place in Vegas that actually has Malort and I got free shots of it because I was like, you have Malort? They were like, yeah, you want some? Here you go.

[Laura]

They were like, yeah, nobody wants this crap. You can have it for free.

[Eric]

Yeah, that's why they give it away. The only time a bar gives something away for free is when it won't sell.

[Micah]

For the those listening who may not know what Malort is, Eric, it's a Wormwood infused.

[Eric]

I. I guess if I could call it a beverage would be a very generous credit. The. It's got a lot of history and it is tied to Chicago. Essentially, the story, or one of them about the guy who created it is that his dad had this degenerative illness where he couldn't feel or really taste anything. So he com. He infused this drink or this beverage, this liquid, let's just call it that is so unbelievably offensive to the senses that his father could enjoy a good alcoholic beverage. And that became Malort. Wow, it sounds enticing. That's the story that was told to me that got me to drink it. Don't.

[Micah]

Well, on that note, I went with, is this despair ethically sourced?

[Eric]

Excuse me, Garcon Garcia, did you ethically source this?

[Laura]

And I said, is this treatment in network with my insurance?

[Micah]

Yeah,

[Eric]

not for the first time this month you've asked that question, right, Laura? No. American Health Care over on Patreon.

[Andrew]

Zachary pasted the whole never going to give you up, never going to let you down song.

[Eric]

Oh, my God, we got Rick rolled.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we got Rick rolled. But I'll just read a part of it. We're no strangers to love. You know the rules and so do I. Full commitments. What I'm thinking of, you wouldn't get. Get this from any other guy. I just want to tell you how I'm feeling. Kind of make you understand. Never going to give you up, never going to let you down. It goes on and on. Thank you, Zachary.

[Eric]

Thank you for that. That's our first Rick roll, I think, that anybody has ever sent in. Robert says, Harry, did you put your name in the Goblet of Fire? Did you ask one of the older students to do it for you? Are you sure? I love, I love if Dumbledore would scream that. He says, maybe not the most original choice, but I couldn't resist. All right, so you just goblet rolled us, Robert.

[Micah]

Rachel said, I lost the game.

[Laura]

And John, this is. Wow, such a good one. Yeah, such a good one. John says, everybody shot shots. Shot, shot, shot, shots.

[Andrew]

And Ben said, how dare you steal that car. I am absolutely disgusted. Your father's now facing an inquiry at work and it's entirely your fault. If you put another toe out of line, we'll bring you straight home. Yeah, that would be a fun one, actually. If you have feedback about today's episode, you can send an email or send a voice memo to mugglecastmail.com Also, you can reach out via the Spotify comments, YouTube, social DMs, whatever is convenient for you. And next week we'll host a new episode on the upcoming Harry Potter TV show, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. We'll update everybody on what's going on there. And we will also finally offer a review of the full cast Harry Potter audiobooks. It's finally time, so stay tuned. Visit mugglecast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And don't forget the Mugglecast Collectors Club Year 5 is open now for orders, so don't wait. And now it's time for Quizzage.

[Eric]

Yes, we'll recap last week's question and the winners on a few episodes from now. But this week's quiz its question. With a span of over 426 miles, made of limestone, where is the world's longest known cave system located? Submit your answer to us on the Mugglecast website. Be sure to pay attention. This week there are two questions for Kwizzi to answer. One's right above the other on the forum on themugocast.com Kwizzitch page. I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Micah]

Bye everyone.

[Laura]

Bye.

[Micah]

Sam.