No Honor Among Snakes (OOTP Chapter 32, 'Out of the Fire')

Summary

Podcast Summary: MuggleCast – "No Honor Among Snakes" (Order of the Phoenix, Chapter 32: 'Out of the Fire')

Release Date: July 15, 2025
Hosts: Andrew, Eric, Micah
Guest: Pamela

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Introduction & Guest Welcome

In the episode titled "No Honor Among Snakes," the MuggleCast team—Andrew, Eric, and Micah—welcomes back their guest, Pamela, a friend of the show and fellow podcaster. Pamela steps in for Laura, who is temporarily unavailable, and the hosts express their gratitude for her filling in.

[02:04] Pamela: "It's a big responsibility, man."

[02:07] Eric: "You have to be all voicey and reasony. It's garbage. Utter garbage."

Pamela humorously acknowledges the challenge of maintaining the show's dynamic in Laura's absence.

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Milestone Discussion: Umbridge's 'Suck Count'

A significant moment in the episode is when the hosts celebrate reaching a milestone—the 100th time Dolores Umbridge is criticized for her actions in "Order of the Phoenix." The team recounts how they previously discussed this in episode 470 titled "Silky Smooth Snape."

[07:22] Eric: "Episode 470 calling around a buffoon. That puts us at 99 times that Umbridge sucked in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix."

[08:10] Micah: "Yeah, you do."

[08:11] Pamela: "We still have a couple more chapters."

This milestone underscores Umbridge's antagonistic role in the series and sets the stage for deeper character and plot analysis.

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Chapter 32 Analysis: Harry’s Vision and the Ministry’s Security

The core discussion revolves around Chapter 32, where Harry experiences a vision of Voldemort torturing Sirius at Hogwarts. The hosts delve into the plausibility of Voldemort and Sirius infiltrating the Ministry of Magic during a workday, considering the Ministry’s security measures.

[10:20] Andrew: "I may be playing devil's advocate through a lot of this discussion because I wouldn't be surprised to know that Voldemort did somehow get in. Maybe by himself, maybe through some of his associates."

[11:40] Pamela: "I think that the one thing Hermione is really forgetting is that at this point in the story nobody believes Voldemort's back."

Pamela and Andrew argue that the Ministry’s lax security is a result of widespread disbelief in Voldemort’s return, making it easier for him and his allies to breach facilities like the Ministry. They highlight Hermione's skepticism about the vision’s authenticity, contrasting it with Harry's urgency rooted in past traumatic experiences.

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Character Dynamics: Harry, Hermione, and the Order

The hosts explore the intricate dynamics between Harry and Hermione, especially focusing on Hermione's role in questioning Harry's impulsive decisions. They discuss Hermione's logical approach versus Harry's emotionally driven actions.

[13:12] Eric: "Harry, he just wants it done so fast. That's, that's the big thing. Right? He doesn't trust any adult to be like, yeah, let's go."

[15:02] Andrew: "It's too big of a lure, it's too obvious of a choice."

The conversation acknowledges Harry's traumatic past, emphasizing his instinct to act swiftly to prevent further loss, even when Hermione advises caution. They debate whether Hermione's pragmatic approach is a necessary counterbalance to Harry's impulsiveness.

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Kreacher’s Betrayal and Harry’s Oversight

A pivotal point in the discussion is Kreacher’s recent injuries and Harry's failure to connect the dots regarding Kreacher's allegiance, betraying Sirius and the Order.

[25:00] Micah: "He knows there's no love loss there. He's really upset that he has to answer to Sirius all the time."

[25:42] Andrew: "Is he at the Department of Mysteries."

Pamela and Micah express disappointment in Harry for not recognizing the signs of Kreacher’s betrayal, such as his bandaged hands—an indicator of self-inflicted injuries typical of house elves who have betrayed their masters.

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Umbridge’s Manipulative Tactics and Snape’s Role

The hosts analyze Dolores Umbridge’s interactions with Severus Snape, highlighting Snape’s subtle undermining of Umbridge’s authority and his refusal to conform to her demands.

[43:32] Andrew: "Yeah, and that part must be true, right? Oh yeah, yeah. That it would take a month."

[45:17] Pamela: "He's just calling her stupid in, like, 20 different ways."

Snape criticizes Umbridge’s incompetence regarding the use of Veritaserum, showcasing his disdain while maintaining his position within her circle. This exchange emphasizes Umbridge’s desperation and Snape’s covert resistance.

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Hermione’s Deceptive Brilliance

A standout moment is Hermione's masterful deception to secure Harry and her friends' freedom. The hosts commend her ability to fabricate a convincing story under immense pressure.

[35:03] Micah: "That was pretty good thinking on your feet."

[35:29] Andrew: "Yeah, well, and Harry did compromise with her by checking in on Grimwald Place, so there's that."

Hermione’s quick thinking is juxtaposed against Umbridge’s inability to see through the deception, highlighting Hermione’s crucial role in the trio’s survival and mission.

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Umbridge’s Relationships with Other Characters: Draco and Snape

The discussion extends to Umbridge’s relationship with Draco Malfoy and Severus Snape, illustrating her dependence on them and their respective motivations.

[37:39] Andrew: "He's still completely a jerk."

[42:22] Eric: "So there's no honor among snakes."

The hosts critique Draco’s blind loyalty to Umbridge and his burgeoning ambition, which ultimately undermines Umbridge’s own schemes. Snape’s interactions with Umbridge further reveal his strategic resistance within her constraints.

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Critical Insights: The Role of Trust and Deception

Throughout the episode, the hosts emphasize themes of trust, deception, and the complexities of loyalty within the wizarding world. They explore how characters navigate these themes amidst mounting threats and personal agendas.

[52:45] Pamela: "He's so like, he leads so much with his heart versus his head that."

[54:14] Micah: "She just wants information at this point."

These insights shed light on the morally gray areas the characters inhabit, highlighting their struggles between personal loyalty and overarching missions.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Andrew on Hermione’s Skepticism:

  [11:40] Pamela: "I think that the one thing Hermione is really forgetting is that at this point in the story nobody believes Voldemort's back."

• Eric on Harry’s Urgency:

  [13:12] Eric: "Harry, he just wants it done so fast. That's, that's the big thing. Right? He doesn't trust any adult to be like, yeah, let's go."

• Micah on Kreacher’s Betrayal:

  [25:00] Micah: "He knows there's no love loss there. He's really upset that he has to answer to Sirius all the time."

• Pamela on Snape Undermining Umbridge:

  [45:20] Eric: "He's just calling her stupid in, like, 20 different ways."

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Conclusion

In "No Honor Among Snakes," MuggleCast provides a thorough and engaging analysis of Chapter 32 of "Order of the Phoenix." The hosts, along with guest Pamela, dissect the intricate plot developments, character motivations, and thematic elements that drive the story forward. From Hermione's strategic brilliance to Umbridge's desperate tactics and Snape's covert resistance, the episode offers listeners a deep dive into the complexities of the wizarding world. The inclusion of notable quotes with timestamps enriches the discussion, making it accessible and insightful for both avid fans and newcomers alike.

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Stay Tuned!
Next week, the MuggleCast team will continue their chapter-by-chapter re-read of "Order of the Phoenix" with Chapter 33: 'Fights and Flight.' Don’t miss out on more thought-provoking discussions, trivia, and insights into the magical world of Harry Potter.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the episode's core discussions.

Transcript

[Pamela]

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[Andrew]

Welcome to Mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Andrew]

We are your Harry Potter friends talking about the books, the movies, and the upcoming TV show. So make sure you press that follow button in your favorite podcast app and that way you'll never miss a week with your Potter people. And this week, we really want to ask Kreacher what happened to his hands because we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 32, out of the Fire. And joining us for this week's episode is friend of the show and fellow podcaster, Pam. Welcome back, Pam.

[Pamela]

Hey, everyone. It's nice to be back.

[Andrew]

It's always nice having you on. Thank you for filling in.

[Pamela]

Thanks for being here. Yeah, I'm always down to try and fill the very big shoes that Laura.

[Andrew]

Leaves behind whenever she's off the Laura seat. Well, we. We appreciate that you're willing to step in when. When Laura can't make it.

[Pamela]

It's a big responsibility, man.

[Eric]

You have to be all voicey and reasony. It's garbage. Utter garbage. Yeah.

[Pamela]

Got to keep you boys in check.

[Andrew]

Mainly Micah. He's the troublemaker. Yeah, but this week, Micah is going to stay in check because he's coming to visit me tomorrow. So he knows that he's going to be in trouble.

[Pamela]

He knows you're going to put him on a timeout if he doesn't behave.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. If he wants a free from. From dinner back to his hotel tomorrow night. He has to be good.

[Micah]

I was gonna say embarrass me in front of my colleagues or something along those lines.

[Andrew]

Oh, I can do that, too. It's Vegas. I can make a fool of myself on the Strip. Sure, that sounds pretty easy to do.

[Micah]

Don't you want access to the pool or something like that?

[Andrew]

I do, yeah. So we both have an interest in being good to each other today.

[Pamela]

That's so funny.

[Eric]

Devious. Very devious.

[Andrew]

Pam is also a co host of Millennial and what the Hype, which we plug at the end of every Mugglecast episode. So make sure to ch. I thought also we would be remiss if we didn't mention that we are recording on July 10th and the Order of the Phoenix movie was released 18 years ago this week. July 11th, 2007.

[Eric]

18 years. It came up recently that I do not remember exactly the circumstances which had me seeing this movie. I don't remember what country I was in at the time, because July of 2007 was real messed up. I was everywhere, and I don't have a memory. I don't know exactly where I'm gonna have to dig through.

[Andrew]

So you put it in a pensieve. Maybe that's why you can't recall.

[Eric]

That explains it. That explains it.

[Pamela]

Did you ask. Somebody must have seen it with you.

[Eric]

I. If you've seen Order of the Phoenix with me in theaters, please, listeners of the show write in, let me know. It's funny because we talk about. This was the summer of Potter, right? We had book seven, came out just a month. Two months of Potter movie five.

[Pamela]

Yeah.

[Eric]

And at episode 100 at the Waterstones, you know, live London show for the seventh book, we talk largely about the fifth movie because we'd all just seen it, and I've seen it at that time, but I don't remember where. I don't remember how unbelievable.

[Micah]

And I actually think it was a running joke when we did the live show in Philadelphia that I had not seen Order of the Phoenix yet. I think it was the only one that was on panel.

[Eric]

The whole site, I think so.

[Micah]

I still haven't seen it, actually.

[Eric]

We had that campaign. We had that campaign to get Micah.

[Andrew]

To see the movie, and now there's a new campaign. Who saw Order of the Phoenix with Eric?

[Pamela]

Please find out.

[Eric]

I don't have photos of me. You know, usually I take a photo outside the theater next to the poster.

[Pamela]

Oh, cute.

[Eric]

I got to figure it out, you guys.

[Micah]

This is eating me on that panel in Philadelphia.

[Eric]

No, I was in New Zealand. At the time.

[Andrew]

I'm glad you bring that up, Eric, because next week we're going to record a bonus Muggle cast in which we relive those glorious two weeks in Harry Potter history where the fifth movie and the seventh book came out within. I think you said a couple weeks. I think it was like 10 days. Within 10 days of each other, which is just nuts. So we'll talk about that. We've got some stories to share from those crazy couple of weeks, and hopefully.

[Eric]

I have a story to share by the time we record that bonus.

[Pamela]

Hopefully by that point, someone's written in.

[Eric]

And said, I'm a detective. I have to figure this out.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Well, jumping back to present day, we'll discuss Order of the Phoenix in a moment. But first, we just want to remind our listeners of a couple of things. If you love this show and want to help us keep it running as reliably as a pair of stealth censoring spells outside of Umbridge's office, we invite you to become a member of our [e-mail] mugglecast and by supporting us for as little as $5 a month, you can get instant access to two bonus Mugglecast episodes every month, plus ad free episod, our recording studio, a personal video thank you message from one of the Mugglecasters, and a lot more. And if you're looking for other ways to Support us, visit mugglecastmerch.com to buy official gear. You can also leave us a review in your favorite podcast app and tell a friend about the show. And speaking of gear, we received this nice message from Kirsten, who, when she recently placed an order, told us, hey, my son is 20 years old and I've been listening since the days I was pacing back and forth with him as a newborn. Thank y'.

[Eric]

All.

[Andrew]

Well, thank you, Kirsten. Oh, that's really sweet. And we turn 20 next month, so we've been around for as long as that kid and hopefully he turned out better than we did.

[Eric]

How do you measure a thing like that?

[Andrew]

I don't know. Bring him on the show.

[Eric]

We'll.

[Andrew]

We'll figure it out. You can visit mugglecast.com for quick access to all of these places that I've been mentioning. You can also find our contact form there. Okay, now it's time for chapter by chapter and we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 32, out of the Fire.

[Eric]

We last discussed this chapter on episode 470 of Mogulcast. It was titled Silky Smooth Snape, which is one of my favorite titles. It's the milestone moment. You guys ready?

[Micah]

Oh, three turns should do it, I think.

[Eric]

Good luck.

[Micah]

What the. Episode 470 calling around a buffoon. That puts us at 99 times that Umbridge sucked in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.

[Andrew]

Is there one more?

[Micah]

Possible.

[Andrew]

I think there might be at least.

[Micah]

One more in this chapter. And how appropriate, given the conversation we've been having about her bias. She calls Hagrid a half breed.

[Andrew]

That's 100.

[Micah]

That is 100 times that Umbridge has sucked in this book.

[Andrew]

Oh, my gosh.

[Pamela]

We did it.

[Eric]

I'm a bitch.

[Andrew]

All the bitches back. Well, congratulations, Umbridge. You suck a lot.

[Micah]

Yeah, you do.

[Pamela]

We still have a couple more chapters.

[Andrew]

And more to go in this chapter.

[Eric]

Mysterious Thing Time.

[Andrew]

I can't believe we counted 99 times and then we played the bitches back. I totally forgot all of that.

[Eric]

It was a milestone. Yeah. So this is a reminder every week in the show Notes, we do put a link to the previous chapter by chapter that we did only five years ago for this book. And we had some segments there. Oh, boy, did we. Including the Umbridge suck count that are worth revisiting if you do want to listen. It's basically like getting a whole extra discussion about this chapter by listening to those old episodes, but they are fun to go through and pull these clips from.

[Andrew]

Love it.

[Eric]

So, all right, let's get into this chapter once more and we're going to be talking about the whole jig, the whole situation that's happening here, which is that Harry is rushing frantically after his vision during his History of Magic Owl, where he envisioned that Voldemort had and was torturing Sirius and was going to kill him. His rush to get to London, and the kind of hold up in having to convince Ron and Hermione that what he saw was real. And there are signs that what he saw was not real. We're going to talk about those for this first part of this chapter discussion. And you know, Hermione in this chapter kind of rubs Harry the wrong way at times. But looking at the chapter from a slightly removed point of view, she has some good points here. Namely, her first point here we're going to discuss is how Voldemort and Sirius Black, the two most wanted men in the wizarding world, would have gotten to the Ministry, into the Ministry. It's a work day. People are still there. These are people that if they just waltz in the front door, Eric Munch is going to spot you and be like, hey, you. Stop. You know the Juan security guy? He's going to see it. Everybody else is going to look in the atrium. What's that?

[Andrew]

I may be playing devil's advocate through a lot of this discussion because I wouldn't be surprised to know that Voldemort did somehow get in. Maybe by himself, maybe through some of his associates. I don't think it would be that surprising in hindsight to learn that he did somehow sneak in. He could have maybe transformed into someone else. He was working with people on the inside to help him get in. So, you know, I'm very split on, like, who's right between Harry and Hermione. But with a question like this, at least I do feel like Harry has legit reason to assume that Voldemort really did break into the Ministry.

[Pamela]

I'm kind of with you there. I think that the one thing, the one big thing Hermione is really forgetting is that at this point in the story nobody believes Voldemort's back. That's been the message that the Ministry has been peddling. And so if they don't believe that he's really back why would they be expecting him to pop up? And in that regard, I would assume that security was much more lax before the point in which they had to concede that he was back for real. Oh, so it's probably. I mean, like. And not to jump super far ahead but Harry, Ron and Hermione don't have a problem sneaking into the Ministry later on.

[Andrew]

You know what I mean?

[Eric]

Yeah, we don't really get a fair assessment of any wizarding building like security until Harry, Ron and Hermione have to break into it. And every single time, it's really easy. Like, even in.

[Pamela]

What we've learned is that the entire wizarding world is a security nightmare, not just Hogwarts.

[Eric]

You know, some flaws in there, it's bad. I really like your point about they're not on the lookout for Voldemort because they're actively. They've actively, like, been hobbled by the government's stance on him.

[Micah]

Right. And. And that's where I would say it's. It's not two of the most wanted, it's just one of the most wanted in Sirius because as Pam said, Voldemort really isn't on the Ministry's radar at this point. But still, the fact that Sirius could get in undetected and, and I would even say, like, presumably Voldemort didn't lure Sirius there. How'd he get him in and here's another piece that the trio don't consider. Sirius would never be on guard duty. So, yeah, there's a. There's a lot that they're not thinking through here. And I do think, though, that Hermione makes really great points. She's spot on. But the one sticking point is that Harry experienced something very similar to this with Arthur just a few months prior to. And if Harry hadn't experienced it, Arthur would likely have died. And the author actually considered killing Arthur in Order of the Phoenix and opted instead for Sirius. So, you know, this is something that is fresh inside of Harry's mind.

[Eric]

Well, it's a good point about guard duty too, because Arthur was basically. Voldemort's been dreaming about this door all year. So because Harry's been dreaming about it and so it makes sense after a year of thinking about it, he would have found a way to get in, right? And get to the weapon that everyone's talking about and find a way to get serious there too. It seems reasonable, even though to Hermione, like, it's a work day. How would he do this?

[Andrew]

Yeah, well. And to the point about the very real attack that happened on Arthur, Harry is keeping that in mind. And that vision was real. It wasn't just a dream, it was a vision. But since then, he has also lost Dumbledore, Hagrid and now McGonagall. Now all three of them are out of Hogwarts. These three parental figures are out of Hogwarts. And now he's potentially about to lose Sirius too. Forget it. There's no time to. To. To dilly dally. We got to go to the Ministry and not lose Sirius next.

[Eric]

Here's a question then. And Hermione also raises this one, bless her. Why Sirius specifically? It's kind of random, isn't it? He's a member of the Order, but he's not been routinely here. There's not really a chance for Voldemort to have, I don't know, stumbled on Sirius accidentally. It's kind of unlikely that if this was the day that Sirius was like, I'm gonna take a walk, I can'. Being at home with Kreacher, that Sirius would have run into Voldemort. So. So why does it just happen to be that surrogate father figure that Harry would most want to save and most break all of the rules and put himself and his friends all at risk to rescue? Why is it serious, specifically? I guess Hermione's point is it's too good to be true. You should consider that this is fake on the merit of it's. It's really unlikely.

[Andrew]

It's too big of a lure, it's too obvious of a choice. Yeah, I think it goes back to the point I was just making. Voldemort, by picking Sirius, is going straight at Harry's heart to the point where he doesn't even want to really take time to think about if this is a real vision or not. He's lost quite a few people in this book already. At least they're no longer at Hogwarts, so he doesn't want something similar to what happened to Arthur happened to Sirius. I'm really on Harry's side through all of this. He might not be thinking clearly, but I understand why. I don't blame him for it.

[Pamela]

I would also argue too, that they all know that Sirius is getting restless and stir crazy and even Hermione knows that he's really reckless. They cover a lot of that in the context of the book up until this point. Even so, I just don't think that, like, yes, would it be weird for him to be out on a walk? Probably. But also, it's not anything that you can't imagine Sirius doing sneaking out just to get a bit of fresh air. So I don't even think they question that.

[Eric]

Yeah, it works on multiple levels, I think because of like you're saying, Pam, like the buildup of Sirius's sort of suffering. I think that also propels Harry to want to save him because it wouldn't be right for Sirius to go out this way after spending a year all cooped up and all of a sudden, his first day out, he's being tortured.

[Micah]

And killed by Voldemort and Harry's just overwhelmed. At this moment, he's borderline irrational in his thinking and you could just feel the emotion that's building in him throughout the course of the chapter when Ron and Hermione are not telling him what he wants to hear, which is, hey, let's get out of here and go to the Ministry. But there are other options. Harry just doesn't consider them in the moment. The biggest one, which Harry, you know, finally clicks in his head a little bit later on in this chapter, is Snape. Regardless of the, you know, the fallout between the two of them, he's still a member of the Order of the Phoenix that is at Hogwarts, but there are other members of the Order he could go to Molly, Arthur Lupin and. But in the moment, of course, like you're not thinking rationally Right, so I can see where he's coming from too.

[Pamela]

Yeah, he just wants it done so fast. That's, that's the big thing. Right? He doesn't trust any adult to be like, yeah, let's go. Right now. They're all gonna pull Hermione and be like, well, let's think about this logically. Let's make sure he's not anywhere else before we go traipsing down to the Department of Mysteries.

[Eric]

Well, I'm so glad Hermione does this too. Like, I am, like. Because I don't think it's the equivalent of just having us be disappointed later. I think that this due diligence is necessary. I think that that can be a lesson that we all can learn. Because even though it doesn't necessarily change the outcome, we do ultimately make sure that all the people we're lugging along to this are all equally interested, I guess because they all like their buy in comes as they see that we did take these extra steps. It would be wrong for Harry and I know he'd probably go on his own, but it would be wrong for these people to get all caught up if they didn't do that due diligence and then go and risk their lives in the, the Department of Mysteries. So at least they tried an alternative, a single alternative before doing it again.

[Micah]

Part of the reason why Harry does want to act so quickly is because of his prior experience. You think about how quickly McGonagall reacted and then Dumbledore reacted and they were able to get to the Ministry in time to save Arthur. He's probably thinking, if we don't act literally within these next couple of minutes, Sirius is as good as dead.

[Eric]

Well, I mean, Voldemort actually in his vision said, we have hours, don't worry about it.

[Micah]

That should have been the tip off.

[Andrew]

No rush, Harry boy. No rush, Harry boy. Yeah, take your time. This week's episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Let's talk about workplace stress. It's now one of the top causes of declining mental health with 61% of the global workforce experiencing higher than normal levels of stress. So many of us have that boss who, like Dumbledore, might need to be providing some better leadership. Most of us can't wave goodbye to work, but we can start small with a focus on wellness and vacations and weekends are great, but ultimately they don't tackle the root problem. Therapy though, can help you navigate whatever challenges the workday or any day might bring. A therapist can help you dig into the problems you're experiencing and work with you to develop solutions that will create long term success. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, Having served over 5 million people globally and it works with an App store rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Unwind from work with BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com Mugglecast that's BetterHelp H E L P.com Mugglecast On WhatsApp, no one can.

[Pamela]

See or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat, we're trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast. Your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Eric]

Here'S the interesting thing, and I love this detail. There's a point in this chapter where it says that Harry's scar was hurting or throbbing, but Harry notes, and this is sort of an unconscious thought, that his scar is not hurting as much as when Voldemort was torturing Avery, which happened earlier in the book. Avery of course, gave bad intel as to a way to get the prophecy, and Harry's noting of this just, you know, ah, damn my scar. At least it's not as bad as that other time. The other time was real, and this vision of Sirius being tortured is not. If Voldemort were actually torturing Sirius, it would probably feel exactly the same to Harry as it did when Voldemort was torturing Avery. It's cool that Harry's scar is that super sensitive, and if Harry had somehow been more attuned to his scar and what it means and how often he feels, or if he didn't have a million other things going on right now, he could probably suss out based on this fact alone, that this was a fake planet Vision. Even if he hadn't taken a day of Occlumency lessons, I think Harry really could have maybe guessed. Because when Voldemort's casting an unforgivable curse and is mirthful and is causing so much pain, Harry feels pain too, because of the connection between them. Yeah, this is more of an echo of pain. This is fake.

[Andrew]

You fake Pain you get. You got me on this one. I agree with this. It's almost like an extension of Occlumency and the lessons he could have been taking. Dumbledore Snape could have been teaching him on how to read the pain and decipher pain coming from Voldemort because of a real vision or feeling from Voldemort or pain that's coming or mild headaches that's coming from Voldemort because of. He's, he's making up a vision for Harry to see.

[Eric]

Right. And, and there have been years where Harry's scar has hurt. Like all year. Like all last year, I think it was throbbing. Or all this year. Like he, it's, it's, you know, you still got schoolwork to do. You got to kind of push it away. But had Harry had a mentor to say, actually pay attention to this because it's telling you something like, like, yeah, it's annoying and it hurts and it's, you know, you want to pretend it's not there. You could learn something from this. And I, I just think it's a cool bit of the writing that shows that there is actually a method, you know, because this is, this was a forced vision that Harry's scar hurt when it was happening, but is not continuing to throb the way that it would if Voldemort were actually torturing Avery. And we're getting up to Umbridge's office now. We finally break in with our team, aided by Ginny and Luna. Hey, girls. And we finally get to Grimmauld Place via the Floo Network and we see Creature. The one thing that I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive Harry for is pursuing this line of questioning with Kreacher. Because when he finds Kreacher, Kreacher has these pleased looks on his face and triumphant glances that he's making. And his hands have recently sustained injury and are bandaged. We know house elf language. We know how house elves work. If anybody knows how house elves work. If any wizard knows, it's Harry. Because the bandaged hands come from self inflicted injuries when you've betrayed your master. We've seen Dobby do this for two, three separate books now. And it's a problem. Harry doesn't connect the dots here.

[Micah]

Yeah. And Harry, I think, also forgets that Kreacher has zero loyalty to him. Kreacher can say whatever Kreacher wants in this moment. And truthfully, the only person he needs to have loyalty to, even though we know that he hasn't been loyal to Sirius for a while now. Is Sirius. Right. Like. And. And so the fact that Harry is so willing to believe what Kreacher has to say surprises me a bit. And it's almost like Harry dangled the carrot out in front of him by using the words Department of Mysteries, because.

[Andrew]

Is he at the Department of Mysteries.

[Micah]

Right. Otherwise Kreacher would have just left and then Harry wouldn't have had that piece of information. So I'm disappointed in Harry in this moment. He's definitely letting his emotions get the best of him.

[Andrew]

But I guess, again, to play devil's advocate here, I think Harry, evidently, it's the only person at Grimwald Place. Nobody else is coming towards the fireplace. That's all he's got. He has. He really has no choice but to believe Creature.

[Eric]

So I didn't even want to do this. Yeah, no, Harry didn't even want to be here.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

And so he's doing the thing. He makes contact with somebody. Somebody says no. And then Sirius is. Because we know Sirius is actually just upstairs. I think minutes later, it transpires that moments later, Sirius goes, what? Did I hear something?

[Andrew]

You know, I guess if you want to criticize Harry here for something, it's just like scream a couple times to see if serious actually does hear you from further upstairs. But time is of the essence here, too. So Harry doesn't really have time to decide whether or not Creature is lying.

[Eric]

Well, this is the problem. And. And again, it's. It's clever writing because they know that Umbridge is suspicious she's likely to not spend as much time away from her office as she did the last time. Time is of the essence. Harry doesn't even want to do this. He's only doing this to please Hermione. And so when he gets the quote confirmation from Kreacher that Sirius isn't there, he's heard everything he needs to hear. But the signs are there, unfortunately, the signs are there that Harry has no reason to crush Creature to begin with. It's a great point, Micah, but when you look at the bandage hands too, something is definitely off. Something is just very definitely off.

[Micah]

Love and his just overall demeanor. Creature's never happy.

[Pamela]

Well, I think that's why he. He believes him, because he is happy.

[Andrew]

Because Sirius might actually be in danger.

[Pamela]

Right. Exactly.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Pamela]

He knows there's no love loss there. He's really upset that he has to answer to Sirius all the time. So I'm honestly surprised Harry doesn't just, like, chuck himself into the fire because he would Already have been in London at that point.

[Eric]

Any faster, Right?

[Pamela]

Exactly.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Pamela]

He's so like, he leads so much with his heart versus his head that. Yeah. It's actually very surprising to me, reading back, that he wouldn't have just jumped in.

[Eric]

They all could have followed.

[Pamela]

Yeah. Unless, like, does Floo powder, does it have like, memory? Could Umbridge have traced it back to Grimmauld Place?

[Eric]

Oh, maybe. Maybe then it would be like, revealed to her through the Fidelity's charm.

[Andrew]

But if that's the case, then she would know anyway.

[Eric]

Right.

[Pamela]

Yeah. His head was there, so maybe it doesn't.

[Micah]

And if I'm not mistaken, isn't Sirius tending to Buckbeak?

[Pamela]

I think you're right.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Eric]

Yeah, he's. He's just upstairs.

[Micah]

Creature attack. Buckbeak. I want to say, you know, this was all part of his plan, wasn't it?

[Eric]

That I don't remember. He's definitely in cahoots with Bellatrix.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

And there. There's an. There's an instance of double talk too, because Creature mentions his mistress and you think he's talking about Wahlberg Black, but actually he's talking about Bellatrix.

[Andrew]

One theory I saw online Micah, was that creatures hands are bruised because he was dealing with Buckbeak. So. But then that doesn't really make sense. He's. His hands are bruised because he was lying, Right?

[Eric]

Yeah. I think it's all the time that he spent with Bellatrix planning or plotting or working out what they're gonna do to entrap Harry. Because I think it's later confirmed that Bellatrix or somebody tells Kreacher, you may see the Potter boy and he may ask where Sirius is. Lie to him. Something like that.

[Micah]

Yeah. Hedwig's theme in the Discord is saying Kreacher did injure Buckbeak, so that could be where he got the injuries to his hands. In part because Buckbeak isn't just gonna lie down for Creature.

[Eric]

Right.

[Andrew]

Did Kreacher bow? I doubt it.

[Eric]

You know, the sad thing is, honestly, it's these. This. I would say these men, Creature and Sirius have been locked up all year. They share this connection through Regulus that they will never learn about while each other are still alive. They could really repair their relationship. Like Sirius could gain an appreciation for his brother if Kreacher were to ever tell him what happened to Regulus. And I don't know, I see this great emotional catharsis that could have happened had they just talked to each other because the Creature reveal that Harry finds out about, you know, and the reason that Kreacher comes around on the trio is because of this love that he has for Master Regulus. And, you know, that's something that Sirius really and Kreacher could have buried the hatchet on had they had a little bit more willingness, I think, to communicate about why they don't like each other. And there is a moment in this chapter where Hermione errs and stumbles a little bit. One of her. In her attempt to disprove why Harry should not be going to London right now she suggests that Harry has a, quote, saving people thing. This goes poorly, pisses Harry off and kind of pisses me off as a reader. But what does she hope to accomplish by pointing this out, I wonder?

[Andrew]

Yeah, because it can't be, oh, you know what, Hermione, you're right. Let me change who I instinctively am and let my godfather die. Great idea. Having a saving people thing isn't inherently a bad thing and it gives Harry a purpose. So I don't get why Hermione is saying this other than to slow him down and try to make him think a little more clearly. Ultimately, Hermione is right, so we have to voice that. But you also understand why Harry does have this saving people thing. He lost his parents right in front of him. Sure, he was a baby, but he lost his parents. I do wonder if he's trying to return the courage that his parents held for him when they saved him.

[Pamela]

It also just feels like she says this in a way to explain, feels displaced almost just because I think that the implication is that Harry likes being the hero. And I don't think Harry likes being the hero. I think he just feels like somebody's gotta do it, so it might as well be me. And, you know, she plays into this, too, when it's helpful to her. I mean, it's not really the same thing, but, you know, when they start the da, da, she's like, harry, it has to be you.

[Eric]

You have to be the leader.

[Pamela]

So, you know, it's like leader and hero kind of synonymous in my head. But, yeah, I think that, like, the implication is displaced here because I think that she kind of means it as, like, he enjoys the attention. And then when he connects it to what Ron said after the Lake Task and Goblet of Fire, it kind of riles him up even more because Ron was also hinting that he just likes being the hero for the sake of being the hero.

[Eric]

You're right. That just incenses him for. And, you know, the lake thing is below the belt we just went through the fire and there is no indication at all. We even polled people and they disagreed with me but, but it really seems like doing the right thing, you know, seems like everyone was going to let those kids drown. It really did seem that way.

[Pamela]

They put it into the, the riddle. They're like it what was lost won't come back if you run out of time.

[Eric]

So you know like genuinely the fact that he's like the fact that reminds like you shouldn't want to save somebody goes against everything that even she would want I think to communicate really. Here's the other thing and this is where I'm gonna blame kind of Dumbledore a little bit. But like there are so many instances in which Harry has been forced has been set up to be the only person who can save these folks. You know thinking about Ginny in the Chamber that whole entire year that the Chamber of Secrets was open the school was gonna close. Muggleborn's kids were gonn. Dumbledore put them all with the least competent dada teacher we've ever seen or heard from. This would have been a year to get a competent teacher in or backup who could have found the Chamber closed. It prevented Ginny from ever getting trapped down there destroyed or captured. The diary Horcrux 5 years, 3 years ago now at this point in the book and because they didn't do that it had to be Harry going and rescuing her at the last minute. So I don't see this as a fault of Harry's at all that he is the kid who steps up more often than not. He will lose something dear to him if he doesn't. Yeah. And so I think this serves only to embolden him to actually go through with the rescue.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Maybe Hermione just doesn't want to go to the Ministry of Magic and go into the Department of Mysteries.

[Eric]

She's a real problem with her future work. She's not interested.

[Andrew]

Right. Being friends with Harry sucks. I have to keep helping him save people. This is a lot of effort. I just want to study and wrap up the school year and start thinking about year six.

[Eric]

You know it is helpful that all their exams are done though because it's like what, what are you going to do now? You're just waiting around.

[Pamela]

She's like yeah, I'll go with you if it checks out.

[Eric]

Yeah. You're just waiting a week or two for the Hogwarts Express. Like nothing's happening after this. This is, this is the senior week. Like crazy, you know, parties and stuff.

[Pamela]

No, Hermione is like very loyal. I know we're kind of joking around here, but I do think that it is like, you know, it's a show of loyalty that even though she won to make sure somebody's doing their due diligence, she has no problem with, you know, tagging along if it all checks out. So.

[Andrew]

Yeah, well, and Harry did compromise with her by checking in on Grimwald Place, so there's that.

[Micah]

Yeah. I do like the fact though that all of these examples are mentioned because it made me think specifically of Prisoner of Azkaban. And I know we try and connect the thread from time to time. Connect the threads from time to time between books three and book five. And Harry does run off to save Sirius in Prisoner of Azkaban as well. He uses the Time Turner to go back and save him from the Tormentors and then free him from the Tower. So getting a little bit of a repeat here between Harry needing to save Sirius.

[Eric]

Love that.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Eric]

So let's talk about Umbridge now. And you know we were, we were talking about, we were talking about Hermione in like a why did she do this? Sort of way. But in the back half, Hermione is solid, impressive, completely flawless in I think her execution in hoodwinking Umbrage into basically freeing her and Harry to go into the forest. And I mean she plays her like a fiddle. And I'm interested in catching up on Umbridge. Cause this is one of the last chapters we'll have her. She has sucked a hundred times in this book. Aww. Yeah, we're not gonna miss her. But it's one of the final chapters so let's talk. Yeah, she'll be back even worse. But let's talk about her dynamic with some of these other characters. So the big thing that sticks out to me in this chapter is Draco Malfoy. He's this kiss ass sycophants who's still like only has eyes for Umbridge here but he's an important part of her enforcement team. I think she feeds off of his loyalty and his like overstated, over dramatic allegiance to her. And yeah, I think that Draco really is perfect for Umbridge as to be like her student deputy.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And she's everything he currently wants to be when he grows up, I think. Powerful, powerful, bossy, breaking the rules to get ahead, willing to torture a child. This is stuff Draco currently looks up to. He matured. I don't think he would want to be this in his adult years, but right now he really Admires Umbridge and.

[Eric]

That'S an interesting thing too that you said Andrew too because you know we're getting into book six next and book six is when he really gets in over his head, starts to regret etc. Etc. It this chapter is a really great check in to show that Draco is still however like currently still super power hungry. He hasn't yet been burned by power or seeking it. He's still a jerk. He's just still completely a jerk.

[Micah]

Part of it too is who is feeling the wrath of Umbridge here. I think that Draco has gone through most of the first few books feeling like Harry is the superstar of Hogwarts and that in seeing him knock down a few pegs here by Umbridge along with the rest that were caught. Right. He has no love loss for Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville, Luna, I'm not really sure but I presume he doesn't like her either.

[Eric]

I don't think he has an opinion. I don't think he knows what to make of her.

[Micah]

Yeah but there is something to be said for that, right? Like you're, you're mentioning how he's just kind of nonchalantly in the corner like hanging out, taking it all in, enjoying every minute of what's happening and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact of just how Harry has been treated in front of him over the course of the last several years at Hogwarts. It's like Gryffindor always triumphs and if I were him, I'd probably be sick of that too a little bit.

[Eric]

Well, but he had does hard work. Nobody works harder than Harry actually. No, he does. That's not true. I feel like though Harry has like rightly been given the credit that he's been given. Not in Draco's eyes surely, but he.

[Micah]

Came in on a pedestal even if he didn't put himself on that pedestal.

[Eric]

Famous Harry Potter.

[Pamela]

It's kind of rich of him to be upset about that because like Draco Malfoy is the ultimate Nepo baby. Right. And I think that he, he wants to be on the pedestal and it kills him that he's not there but he would have no problem being in Harry's position and the proof of that is in this book when he gets, you know, he signs on to be part of this inquisitorial squad and suddenly he does have all this power that he thinks Harry has always had to point out.

[Eric]

Yeah, it just shows that getting all that power that he's got doesn't make him happier because he's still a miserable kid. Which is interesting. But the other aspect of Draco and Umbridge, and this comes in with their relationship in this chapter, is that Draco is not quite quick enough on the uptake of. To disguise this look of, I guess, greed when the weapon gets mentioned. When Hermione mentions the weapon and Umbridge is like, take me to it. And Hermione's like, you gotta shed some of these kids. And she's like, hell no. They're to my deputies. And then Hermione says, well, it's this huge weapon and I hope that everyone uses it on you. And Umbridge looks over and Draco's looking greedily about it. And Umbridge thinks twice and it's like, you know what? Okay, maybe I don't trust my own inquisitorial squad enough to be around a weapon that is volatile and uncertain. And this is this alone. Hermione's masterstroke here. But Draco's own, like, obvious power hungriness works against him and works against Umbridge because she ultimately does decide to go it alone. And this shows how, despite having, like, perfect power now Umbridge is the strongest, most powerful person in Umbridge. Bureaucratically, she doesn't trust her supporters, her nearest supporters, at all, because what they have isn't real. What they have is a shared desire for cruelty. They don't really have the bond that's gonna, you know, Draco, if given a chance to get a weapon, would he give it to Umbridge without, like, using it himself if there was such one? Like, like maybe not. She can't take.

[Pamela]

This is where, like, I think this is where stereotypical house traits really come into play. Because, you know, it's helpful to her that she has all the Slytherins behind her because she can create this little troop of cronies to do her bidding. Because she can't be everywhere, right?

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Pamela]

But then she also knows exactly how Slytherins work because that was her house at Hogwarts too. So she kind of knows that. It's like, you know, it's at. At their core, stereotypically, they're out for number one. And just like she would be.

[Eric]

So there's no honor among snakes.

[Pamela]

There you go.

[Eric]

Let's talk now about Umbridge's relationship to Snape, because here's another Slytherin. This is a Slytherin that does a solid in this chapter by completely and again, masterfully, silky smooth. Snape, we should call him, comes in and Umbridge is so Helpless. She is reliant on him. She knows that Snape too is cruel. Snape has no love for these children, especially for Harry Potter. And she needs Snape to get more truth serum because she needs more information from them. And it's fun to see that not only does Snape not help Umbridge, but he, I want to say, berates her. But he makes her feel foolish for her actions in the past. Like she used the whole vial of what he gave her. Even though we do know that what he gave her wasn't real truth potion. He's like, you don't have the stuff I gave you this whole stuff. And oh yes, I'll get this for you. It's gonna take a month.

[Andrew]

Yeah, and that part must be true, right? Oh yeah, yeah. That it would take a month.

[Eric]

So like sure.

[Andrew]

It does surprise me that Umbridge is getting so mad at him because what he is saying to her is very valid. It would take too long to generate new stuff and you used up all of my old stuff. And I think she's just mad at herself about thinking a little more ahead about having more Veritas serum on hand that she could have acquired outside of Snape. You would think she'd have her own Veritas serum suppliers outside of Hogwarts. And I think she's just mad that she didn't think about this. But I also wonder what else could.

[Pamela]

Have told them to keep brewing it? You know, she could have more, you know.

[Eric]

Well the thing is if there's. If only three drops will have you pouring your heart out. And he gives her a whole vial, right? Like you know, I guess she absolutely shouldn't have used the whole thing. But she was short sighted and maybe that's desperate.

[Andrew]

One part that rubbed abridged the wrong way. But what else could he have said here that would have satisfied her other than sure? Here's more I just happened to have on hand because you didn't you use up my full supply.

[Eric]

Well and this is the cleverness of Snape too because he's like even in order to sell his position to her even further, he starts talking about poisons and he's like well you could poison Potter if you got rid of all the Verit serum but come to think of it, you might kill him before you get any answers. It's like she's. She's literally buys. She. She buys the whole thing because she's desperate. She doesn't have any way of making this work. And Snape is not objecting to her morally. He's not saying you can't poison him. You can't.

[Pamela]

He's just calling her stupid in, like, 20 different ways.

[Eric]

Yeah. Right.

[Micah]

It's a flex on the part of Snape. Because really, this conversation shouldn't be happening in front of students. He shouldn't be sharing that she used Verum on students in front of of those students. Right. And so that's why I think he's utilizing the moment to maybe get back at her a little bit for the way she's probably been evaluating him throughout the course of the year. But I did want to point, like, I thought that this would have been an ideal moment for Snape to pull a Dumbledore's Got Style moment because he is the most gifted wizard in the room at this time.

[Eric]

Him.

[Micah]

What he should have done following Harry's cryptic message about Sirius is dismiss the Inquisitorial squad. They're all Slytherins. They all should listen to him at the end of the day and then take out Umbridge himself. Then he could go and relay a message to Dumbledore about what just happened. I mean, there's so many other ways this could have played out where Snape could have been a bit more heroic, but he just chooses to walk out.

[Eric]

That's a good point. I didn't really think about that.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I guess that's a knock on Snape.

[Eric]

I'll tell you what, to his credit, though, he does get crab. Is it to release Neville a little bit? Because Neville's turning blue and he blames it on.

[Andrew]

Yeah. That was very thoughtful of Snape.

[Pamela]

This is extremely thoughtful.

[Andrew]

Don't choke him.

[Micah]

Because he doesn't want to do the paperwork.

[Eric]

That's his excuse.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I'm with.

[Eric]

I have to believe that somewhere deep down, he. He also doesn't want to die. It's just about the paperwork. It's just about the paperwork.

[Pamela]

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[Eric]

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[Pamela]

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[Eric]

How about snacks?

[Pamela]

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[Eric]

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[Pamela]

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[Eric]

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[Pamela]

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[Eric]

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[Andrew]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

[Eric]

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[Pamela]

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[Andrew]

But one other knock against Snape I want to add is that that when Harry says he's got Padfoot in the place where they're keeping the weapon and then Snape claims to Umbridge that Harry's just speaking gibberish. This should have been very clear to Umbridge that Harry was relaying a very real and very cryptic message to Snape that Snape understood. As much as Umbridge despises Harry, I think she should be smart enough to realize that Harry is capable of relaying something to Snape or any professor. That should have been a major red flag for her. Maybe it was. It's not really said in the moment. She's definitely suspicious. But that, that would have been a moment where if I were Umbridge, I'd be putting the cruciatus curse on Snape and trying to get the answers out of him about what Harry just said to him.

[Eric]

Yeah, makes sense to me.

[Andrew]

Come on, Umbridge.

[Eric]

Yeah, she's not thinking clearly either in this, in this chapter at this moment. So let's talk again about her relationship now with Hermione because there is some women hating women moment. There is some superiority complex. Umbridge really gets a ride or thrill out of Little Miss Question. It all suddenly having the one being the one who has to give her answers. She's on a power kick and she, I don't know, she doesn't recognize Hermione's fake tears because it thrills her to think that she has reduced this powerful little feminist to tears. You get that? It's like Umbridge is just so thrilled to be on top that she doesn't see the very kind of obvious to everyone else deception going on here.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, I, I, I can see that. Yeah. She's so excited for any information because she's not getting it from Harry, she's not getting it from Snape. Finally, Harry's about to be tortured and she's so excited that Hermione's breaking. I can see why she's buying it.

[Eric]

Is that's her only card, really, is to threaten more pain or more discomfort. Umbridge is all talk and not, not a great deal of bite. She does have the might of the Ministry behind her and she could get the Inquisitorial Squad to make their lives sort of miserable. But, like, at the end of the day, she's hoping that applying pressure will cause somebody to break. That's what it happened with Marietta.

[Micah]

And it works.

[Andrew]

Air quotes.

[Eric]

That's just her M.O. you know, is essentially to threaten until somebody breaks and gives up.

[Andrew]

I assume the answer is yes. But would she have actually gone through with the Cruciatus Curse?

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so.

[Andrew]

Just check.

[Eric]

I think so. Because here, the only thing that's, that needs to happen for that to go forward is for no one in the room to stop her. Like, and the Slytherins don't care. Like, the Slytherins are ready and probably equally interested in seeing the Cruciatus Curse performed on somebody they hate.

[Andrew]

So I'd be interested to see how Harry or Hermione respond to it. Do they, what spell do they cast to defend against.

[Micah]

Well, they're all restrained.

[Andrew]

Oh, they're all one man, I forgot about that. All right, never mind. But Harry's gonna physically attack Umbridge.

[Micah]

Well, Harry has shown an ability to resist the Cruciatus Curse. Right? Or was it Imperial?

[Eric]

No, I was just thinking that too. I was just thinking too.

[Andrew]

But yeah, it's, it's another unforgivable curse.

[Micah]

We talked about this. Well, I mean, it's.

[Eric]

But he resisted the Death Curse too. You know what? We haven't yet seen this, but I wonder, I wonder if Harry would have a resistance, a darn inborn resistance to Crucio.

[Pamela]

Well, I think it would take more than one hit for him to actually give it up. And that would frustrate her even more. So it could have turned brutally ugly at Hermione hadn't Stepped in.

[Eric]

Well, Harry doesn't have a plan either.

[Pamela]

No, no, no.

[Eric]

That's why it's. It's so brilliant that Hermione is able to come up with this. This lie. Because Harry, yeah, after a few rounds of Crucio, might be starting to let the whole thing slip.

[Micah]

Well, I mean, if he can even talk, I don't know what kind of state he would be in after that. And we talked about this the last time we discussed this chapter. But I do think it's important to mention the only other person who has used the Cruciatus Curse on Harry is Voldemort. He did it in Goblet of Fire. And so now you have Umbridge. And so we got into this whole debate, who's the worst, Voldemort or Umbridge? And for Harry, too, it. It's building up, right, because imposter Moody tries the Imperious Curse on him. Right Now Voldemort does the Prussiatis Curse. And then of course, Avada Kedavra comes in. Deathly Hallows. So Harry is felt the brunt of all three killing curses or unforgivable curses, and has survived.

[Eric]

He's a master of Unforgivable.

[Micah]

He's the master of death.

[Andrew]

So the master of curses and death.

[Eric]

Oh, man. So, yeah. So I think, are we aligned? That pretty much Umbridge is like ambition in her own greed for the answer, especially for a weapon, blinds her. To. Like, she doesn't realize that Hermione isn't actually crying tears.

[Micah]

She just wants information at this point. Like she's been clamoring for something that Dumbledore has been doing under her nose the entire year. And now Hermione has finally given it to her. And that's what I think this is about.

[Eric]

Yeah, I'd guess jokes on her because Dumbledore hasn't actually been doing anything all year.

[Pamela]

Right.

[Eric]

If you really think about it.

[Pamela]

Very busy keeping Harry in the dark.

[Andrew]

Very busy ignoring Harry.

[Micah]

I love how she notes, though, that Dumbledore's not just at some bar.

[Pamela]

She doesn't even question it further than that because she's like, these are stupid children. Of course they'd just be trying anything blindly. Yeah, you know, it's like that's why it works so well.

[Eric]

But I bet he is at a bar. I bet he's at the Hogshead. Like, wouldn't be surprised, chilling with his brother or maybe a nephew or something, you know, we don't know. So here's a question regarding something else in the chapter before we wrap we mentioned that Harry has very few people to go to. He can't go to McGonagall. He doesn't think about Snape. This raised the question for me about why there are other teachers at Hogwarts who aren't in the Order at all. And I'm thinking particularly of Flitwick, Professor Flitwick we know even as recently as when Fred and George left and they left their swamp there we know that Flitwick politically is anti umbrage and we know that he is a strong wizard. He's one of the wizards that fights. You know he defends Hogwarts in the final battle but he's not in the Order. And my question to you the panel is why? Why is Flitwick actually not an Order member?

[Andrew]

I feel like it might be a little dangerous for Dumbledore to recruit every professor or many professors at Hogwarts. I think you kind of want to cover your bases. Is that the phrase I'm looking for?

[Eric]

Just like well what if the whole where you eat?

[Andrew]

Yeah, well and if. If God forbid the Order of the Phoenix falls apart? All of them die. What good people are still left at Hogwarts? If you recruited everyone from Hogwarts, I.

[Eric]

Gotta be a hiring nightmare.

[Andrew]

You need indeed indeed.commugglecast they used to be a sponsor, right? So yeah I think that might be at at play here. He just doesn't want to pull too many people away from staying focused on the school.

[Eric]

It's just because Harry doesn't have anybody he can go to. But if Litwick were in the Order he would have easily thought of. I mean he's the head of his house and Hal Snape is in the Order. The other like two of the house heads are in the Order. Why not Flitwick and why not Sprout? But I'm focusing on Flitwick particularly because you know he's always been just stand up and ready to cast a defensive charm.

[Andrew]

Maybe he doesn't have a saving people.

[Eric]

Yeah, I like this idea though that Dumbledore would be not choosy because I don't think you can afford to be choosy yet but for some reason deciding not to get all the teachers in on it just to be something.

[Pamela]

I wonder if it has something to do with keeping serious concealed. Maybe in part because that is need to know information. And as much as you know you have other good professors that would be staunchly against a second Voldemort uprising I think without seeing proof it would be hard to convince even every good person that this person you're vouching for didn't do this thing that, like, there was so much proof.

[Eric]

I can't believe we found something else to pin on Sirius before he dies. Like, he's the reason, putting more people to the Order? Yeah, no, no, not in a bad.

[Pamela]

Way, I just think. But, like, in general, I need to know for a lot of stuff, including making sure Sirius was kept safe.

[Eric]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think Flitwick has done anything to make Dumbledore not trust him is I guess what I want to say. It's like, he could, he could be in the Order.

[Micah]

I think there's also something to be said for just having allies. You don't need everybody to officially be in the Order of the Phoenix, and.

[Pamela]

Right.

[Micah]

As you said, Eric, we see that it's dangerous. It is, yeah. It definitely is. And I think you mentioned he was a dueling champion. So he would definitely be somebody that would make sense for the Order. On top of his ability to perform charms, I mean, he does duel directly with Voldemort in the Battle of Hogwarts. I think he's part of that threesome of him, Kingsley and Slughorn, who duel Voldemort at the same time. So I don't know. Because he's not in the Order, does it mean that Harry can't go to Flitwick? You know, that's the question I wanted to ask. Like, why can't he go to him anyway? He can hide the serious thing.

[Pamela]

Yeah, but then it's like, would Flitwick even know who to contact to, like, pass the message along? I guess he would have to give him more information than he might have time to give him because he would have to be like, hey, this is going on. I need to get this message to Dumbledore. I don't know where he is, but maybe you should talk to xyz.

[Eric]

The.

[Pamela]

That's, that's a tall order, I would think.

[Andrew]

You know, whether or not you're a member of the Order, if you are a teacher at Hogwarts, you probably have easy access to Dumbledore. You can call the Bat Phone and get in touch with him somehow. So I, I, I think, I think, yes, Flitwick would be able to get in touch with them even if he is not an official member of the Order or get in touch with, I don't know, somebody who can get a message to McGonagall at St. Mungo's. He would have options.

[Micah]

What about Sprout? I mean, we keep Talking about Flitwick. But there's another Head of House here too, right?

[Pamela]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Right. Yeah, but Hoff, it needs to be somebody who's known and because they need to get a message to the rest of the Order. Yeah, but. Yeah, so I do. I do wonder though, because Dumbledore is trying to raise awareness and building up the Order, I don't think he'd stop short of recruiting some of the most talented witches and wizards he knows. So. But by the end of the year, Flitwick and Sprout are not in the Order. And so Harry doesn't have them to go to.

[Andrew]

Maybe they're just like, yo, Dumbledore, I'm trying to maintain a work life balance. I don't got time for this. Thanks, but no thanks.

[Pamela]

No, just know regulars.

[Andrew]

I don't want to get in the middle of your tussle with Tom Riddle.

[Pamela]

Looks like I'm already Head of House. Does this come with a raise?

[Eric]

Yeah, I already run the choir. It's the whole thing.

[Pamela]

Right.

[Andrew]

I got plans coming, Taylor.

[Eric]

But you know, the protection of Lily and James Potter came down to a charm. The Fidelius charm. And so I think everyone appreciates and respects the work that Flitwick could do for the Order. But Dumbledore's just doing it for now, so. Interesting discussion. I believe that wraps chapter 32 out of the fire. So I have a question for y'.

[Micah]

All.

[Eric]

A little bit of an MVP segment. Who is the. We got a lot of Inquisitorial Squad moments and they're not pleasant folk, unfortunately. But who is the baddest mofo in this chapter? And I won't define moho. Particularly nasty piece of work that we want to shout out to.

[Andrew]

Yeah, you just mentioned the Inquisitorial Squad, but I. I want to go a different direction with this question. And I just want to say Snape, for towing that line between Harry and Umbridge so masterfully. I mean, that was a fluid, tense, risky situation that he thought he navigated really well. It was. It was nasty.

[Eric]

Good. All right, well, I'm going to give mine to Millicent Bulstrode. You know, we took a few books off of her from her, and she's back. And I'm not impressed with what I see. She's like, repulsed by the idea that Hermione would show emotion and cry, and she's just using her size to keep these Gryffindors in line. And I'm just. I'm just not into it. Sad.

[Micah]

I went with Warrington just because he seems like the biggest bully in the room. Aw, isn't he the one that has Neville?

[Eric]

I think it's Crab. Yeah, screw Warrington. Anyway, you stand by it.

[Pamela]

Honestly, Eric, I read your question wrong. I didn't realize you met Inquisitorial Squad members. But I guess I would give it to Crab for his insane chokehold on Neville. That seems pretty intense.

[Eric]

Yeah, a teacher has to stop him from going further on that originally.

[Pamela]

He doesn't know his own strength. Clearly.

[Eric]

When you, when you read this originally, you put somebody else as the badass. I did. I was just like.

[Pamela]

I thought you just meant like in the room. And I was like, oh, Hermione is pretty badass for her Oscar worthy performance. Okay. She really saved the hide it.

[Eric]

These things are open to interpretation. All we need is for you to submit somebody. So there's that.

[Andrew]

Yay.

[Eric]

Yay.

[Andrew]

I didn't get it wrong then.

[Eric]

No, no. I could have been clearer.

[Andrew]

It's okay. And then over on the links line we asked everybody in this chapter, Hermione, under great pressure, comes up with a convincing story to tell Umbridge as to what Harry was doing in her fireplace. So what's the best thinking on your feet you have ever done? And let's go in host order. Zachary said, I've never really fabricated any story with my family. I've always been truthful for the most part, with the exception of leaving bits and pieces out of the story.

[Eric]

Good move.

[Andrew]

The closest I have is one night I came home after enjoying some giggle water with my friends. I told my family I was at one of my friends houses who happened to have an abundance of cats. I have a mild allergy to cats. I walked in through the front door and my pop stopped me dead in my tracks and asked why I reeked of cologne. And. And why are my eyes so red? I told him it was because of Matt's cats causing me to rub my eyes. He smirked and said, well just remember, if those cats cause you to get in trouble with the law and you happen to call me to pick you up from the kennel, you'd be better off staying there. That was the one and only time he told me that. And to this day it has been enough to keep me out of any sorts of trouble. That's a good story. Don't get yourself in trouble because Dad's not coming to save you was the implication there. Yeah, Zachary's dad does not have a saving people thing.

[Eric]

Oh.

[Andrew]

Oh.

[Eric]

Well, we heard also from Sonia who said I facilitated my mom buying her dream condo. She was Living in a townhouse on the north side of the railroad tracks while watching these slick new condos being built on the south side. She kept saying how she wanted to live there, but was sure they were all sold by now. I said, go to the leasing office and talk with someone to be sure. I called our local credit union that was across the street and asked them to get an earnest money check written to her from my account and she would pick it up. Sure enough, she meets with the leasing agent and gets the last unit that was allocated for fixed income buyers. She said while she was signing the contract, the agent got a call and told the caller that the last unit was just sold. My mom never failed to credit me for achieving her dream home where she lived for her remaining years. Well done, Draco. Well done. Done, Sonja. I love the ability to see an opportunity that's within your power to kind of handle it much the way Hermione does. In this chapter, I think Emily said.

[Micah]

When I was in high school, I competed, excuse me, in Reading Olympics if you're not as much of a nerd as me. It's a contest between the districts in the county. A list was published each year, and as a team, you would be quizzed on the books. There were 30ish books on the list, and inevitably there would be one or two that nobody read. A question came up on our turn. I don't even remember the book, but I confidently said magic and won the round for my team.

[Eric]

Oh my God, Barry says.

[Pamela]

One time, my friends and I were joking around and I almost said a joke that was probably a little too mean about one of my friends. So mid joke, I pivoted and delivered a punchline that made no sense. Everyone thought I was an idiot, but I'd rather be the idiot than the jerk.

[Eric]

Oh, that. That. That feels real. That hits home.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And finally, Rachel said, I'm not sure if this was the best quick thinking I've done, but I was dropping off a gift at a friend's house as a surprise. As a surprise, no one was there. But her roommate had told me the lock code to get into the garage to put the gift inside. I must have misread the message or pressed the wrong number because I couldn't get in. I tried again, got in and put the gift by the car and a note on the windshield. Then she came outside as I was closing the garage. She wasn't supposed to be there. I should have just said I was there to drop off the gift and ruin the surprise. Instead, I said, I was out for a walk and saw her door was open, so I went up to close it. Not sure if she bought it or not, but she definitely figured it out the next day when she left for work. That's funny. That's pretty good thinking on your feet. Thanks for those contributions, y'.

[Eric]

All.

[Andrew]

The Links line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show, whether or not you are listening live. We ask a new question every week, and we invite you to participate by becoming a member of our [e-mail] mugglecast and you can pledge for as little as $5 a month. If you have any feedback about today's discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to mugglecastmail.com and next week we will discuss order of The Phoenix Chapter 33, fights and flight. If you're looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows in this week's Millennial, we're talking about a San Francisco bookstore that removed the Harry Potter books, and we got into a debate over that, believe it or not. You might be surprised, the stance we took and over on what the hype. We're getting you ready for the upcoming releases of Marvel's Fantastic Four and Netflix's Wednesday Season 2.

[Eric]

I found those details about that bookstore to be very interesting, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Oh, did you listen?

[Eric]

Yep.

[Micah]

Oh, I'm not that far along yet. Oh, so, okay, I'll listen tomorrow.

[Eric]

Oh, I skipped right to it. 43 minutes in.

[Andrew]

I'm.

[Micah]

I'm giving our friends at Millennial a, you know, the full metric, or whatever the hell you want to call it. Listening.

[Andrew]

Talk to me about the episode when we get dinner tomorrow.

[Micah]

Yeah, yeah. Well, no, I'm a stat, so I contribute to your stats.

[Andrew]

Oh, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. All right, and now it's time for everybody's favorite Harry Potter trivia show, Quizzage.

[Eric]

This week's Quizzage question was Harry struggles to name all the moons of Jupiter for his Astronomy owl. Which of the following is not one of Jupiter's moons? Is it IO, Metis, Europa, Ganymede, Calypso, Themisto, Pandia, and S/2003J2. Well, it turns out that Calypso is not a moon of Jupiter. Jupiter's moon is named Callisto. Not Calypso.

[Micah]

Calypso. Think of we're Pirates of the Caribbean.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So 42% of folks with the correct answer did not look that one up. There are 92 moons. So I don't blame anybody who did. And this week's winners were. A Healthy Breeze. Amelia Loves Mugglecast. Astro Bort. Buckbeak's annoyance with the traitorous creature calypso777 graw power. Hagrid's missing secret Filter. I chime in with. Haven't you people ever heard of using the two way mirror?

[Andrew]

Closing that gap.

[Eric]

Much better to talk to your godfather. I didn't know. But my Jupiter obsessed 10 year old says this is the correct answer. That's fun. I'm a nerd. Lumosnox, Magic School Bus. Solar System Owls stand for Officially Wasted Life. Quid Witch, Voldemort and Snape. Defying Gravity. And of course, our dear friend Tofu Tom. And here is next week's Quizzage question. In this chapter, Umbridge placed stealth sensor spells around her eyes office door. Founded by Edward Callahan over 150 years ago. The company which currently holds at least 15% of the market share for home security systems is called adt. What does ADT Security. Adt. What does ATT stand like?

[Micah]

We're home even when you're not. Isn't that their slogan?

[Andrew]

Ring has something like that. I think their slogan is always home.

[Micah]

Something Rachel's friend could have used when she broke into her house.

[Eric]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, submit your answer to us on the Mugglecast website using the Kwizzitch form. Go to mugglecast.com quizzitch or if you're already on our site checking out transcripts or must listens or some other fun stuff we have on there, click on kwizzij from the main nav.

[Micah]

You know, I was thinking when you were reading those names, this thought came to me. I don't know if you've ever mentioned this on the show, and I'm sure some of us on the panel know this, but. But Lumos and Nox, you know that you can say this to Siri. Have you done this before?

[Andrew]

Yes. Yes.

[Micah]

Okay. All right. I'm just making sure.

[Eric]

Okay. That's old news, Micah.

[Micah]

I know it is, but I don't know if you've ever mentioned it on the show.

[Eric]

No, no, I've only seen it done like once. I think it's. I still think it's really cool. The novelty has not worn off for.

[Andrew]

Me for a second. I thought this was set up for Micah to squeeze in a dad joke at the last minute, but it looks like that wasn't the case here. All right. That's all right.

[Eric]

We have a clean episode of Mugglecast, y'. All. We did it.

[Andrew]

Thank you, everyone, for listening. Don't Forget to visit patreon.com mugglecast to support us. We really appreciate your support there. We also appreciate if you leave us a review in your favorite podcast app and if you tell a friend about the show. Friend of the show. Pam, thanks for joining us today.

[Pamela]

Yeah, thanks for having me. It was so much fun.

[Andrew]

Thanks again, everyone, for listening. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Pamela]

And I'm Pamela.

[Andrew]

Bye, everyone.

[Micah]

Bye.

[Pamela]

Bye, Sam.