Pink Kitten Club (OOTP Chapter 27, The Centaur and the Sneak)

Summary

MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Re-Read Podcast
Episode: Pink Kitten Club (OOTP Chapter 27, The Centaur and the Sneak)
Release Date: May 20, 2025

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Overview

In this episode of MuggleCast, hosts Laura, Andrew, Eric, and Micah delve deep into Chapter 27 of "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix", aptly titled "The Centaur and the Sneak." This chapter focuses on the introduction of a new Divination teacher, Forenz the Centaur, and the unfolding tensions within Hogwarts as Umbridge intensifies her crackdown on dissent. The hosts provide insightful analysis, character studies, and discuss pivotal moments that shape the narrative and the dynamics among the characters.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Introduction to Forenz and His Divination Class

The episode begins with the hosts discussing the arrival of Forenz, the new Divination teacher. Forenz is portrayed as a handsome and charismatic centaur who brings a fresh perspective to the traditionally misunderstood subject of Divination.

• Laura (06:03): "Forenz is the centaur who saved Harry in the Forbidden Forest during Sorcerer's Stone. And much like five years ago, Mars is shining brightly in Forenz's classroom turned planetarium."

Andrew and Laura draw parallels between Forenz's current role and his past interactions with Harry, highlighting the significance of his character in the series.

• Andrew (08:03): "I really enjoy it that Mars is shining brightly got referenced again. I Made that connection myself while reading because that's one of those iconic lines from the first Harry Potter book."

2. Hermione's Unexpected Behavior

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Hermione Granger's surprising dismissive attitude toward Forenz, which appears out of character for her typically respectful demeanor.

• Micah (08:38): "She's being, I guess, too cool for school in this instance. While everyone else is impressed by him, she's pretty dismissive."

The hosts analyze Hermione's motives, suggesting that her defensiveness may stem from underlying biases or personal grievances.

• Laura (11:02): "Hermione is acting out of character because she's being petty. It shows that she has biases and allows them to undermine her perceptions of the people around her."

3. Forenz's Teaching Methods and Philosophy

Forenz introduces a more profound and cosmic approach to Divination, contrasting sharply with Trelawney's whimsical methods.

• Eric (15:02): "During this chapter, we see how wrong Hermione is and how cool the class is. Like, everyone who attends, I think, is pretty much blown away."

The hosts commend Forenz for his credible and thoughtful approach, emphasizing quality over quantity in predictions.

• Andrew (15:52): "Friends says that he doesn't know if Trelawney is a true seer or not. But centaurs, he says, can take up to a decade to read the stars and figure out what's going on in the universe."

4. The Dumbledore’s Army (DA) and Patronus Lessons

The conversation shifts to the DA's activities, notably their training in casting Patronuses. Hermione and Cho Chang are noted as the only members capable of producing full Patronuses at this point.

• Laura (34:03): "We are going to cover the end of the chapter. But first one more break to hear some words from our sponsors."
  (Note: This section transitions back to content, skipping ads.)

• Laura (35:31): "Hermione's Patronus is an otter... Otters are cheerful, curious, and mischievous by nature."

The hosts explore the symbolism behind the Patronuses, linking Hermione's otter to her social and intelligent traits, and Cho's swan to her resilience and transformation.

5. The DA's Demise and Umbridge's Interference

A critical moment discussed is the DA's confrontation with Umbridge, leading to Harry's arrest by Draco Malfoy. The hosts compare this scene to earlier and later events in the series, highlighting Draco's evolving character.

• Laura (47:01): "Umbridge presents this list with the title Dumbledore's Army across the top... Dumbledore's piecing that together to form the counter story."

• Eric (63:13): "You can see what Both sides react during this whole meeting, you see, you know, everything from Harry hearing Kingsley uttering a spell... this is really cool and like slowed down this whole scene."

The discussion underscores the strategic maneuvering by Dumbledore to protect Harry and mitigate the damage from Umbridge's aggressive tactics.

6. Character Development and Relationships

Throughout the episode, the hosts delve into the complexities of relationships among characters, particularly focusing on Albus Dumbledore's cunning strategies and the strained interactions between Harry and other key figures like Hagrid and Draco.

• Andrew (64:42): "We have to give it to Dumbledore. He lied to protect Harry. He lied for the greater good."

• Micah (68:26): "Nothing better than a Jamie reaction like that. No, there really isn't."

The nuanced portrayals reveal Dumbledore's multifaceted nature and the growing tensions within the Hogwarts community.

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Notable Quotes

• Laura (05:30): "Nobody was expecting the Golden Goose, Dumbledore himself to come out and say, I did this."

• Micah (46:54): "Find more Memorial Day deals now at Lowe's. We help you save."
  (Note: Skipping non-content sections as per instructions.)

• Eric (65:08): "What is soon really? I mean."

• Laura (72:52): "No, it was good. It was well done."

• Micah (71:27): "Dumbledore, would you do me the honors of reading this quote?"

• Laura (73:23): "Carly Carly said the Chudley Cannons Fan Club would probably fly under the radar since no one cares about them except Ron."

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Insights and Conclusions

In this episode, MuggleCast offers a thorough exploration of Chapter 27, examining character motivations, thematic elements, and plot developments with depth and enthusiasm. The analysis of Forenz's role provides new insights into the Centaur's significance in the series, while the discussion on Hermione's behavior opens up conversations about character growth and underlying tensions.

The hosts adeptly connect events from the chapter to broader series themes, such as the struggle against authoritarian control represented by Umbridge and the Ministry. Their comparison of key scenes to other parts of the series enriches the listener's understanding of character arcs and narrative strategies employed by J.K. Rowling.

Overall, this episode serves as a comprehensive guide for fans looking to deepen their appreciation of the complexities within "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix".

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Conclusion

MuggleCast's latest episode successfully dissects a pivotal chapter in the Harry Potter series, offering listeners both seasoned and new a detailed and engaging analysis. By combining character studies, thematic discussions, and comparisons to other series events, the hosts provide a rich and informative summary that enhances the listener's experience of the Wizarding World.

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Enjoyed this summary?
Be sure to tune into MuggleCast for more in-depth discussions and join the conversation by following them on your favorite podcast platform!

Transcript

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Mintmobile Hosting season's Here are your Windows Guest ready Early access to Blinds.com's Memorial Day Mega Sale is on now. Blinds.com invented a better way to shop for window treatments completely online with upfront pricing. No showroom markups, no salespeople in your home. Choose from classic shutters to outdoor shades and more. All backed by our 100% satisfaction guarantee. ShopBlinds.com's Memorial Day Mega Sale early access now save up to 40% site wide plus a free measure. Blinds.com, rules and restrictions may apply. Welcome to Mugglecast. Welcome to your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

We are your Harry Potter friends talking about the books, the movies and the upcoming TV show. So make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app. That way you'll never miss an episode. And this week we are getting out the face wash. But it probably won't help against Hermione's wrath because we're discussing chapter 27 of order of the Phoenix, the Centaur and the Sneak. All caps. But first a couple of announcements, little programming note. We will be off next week for the Memorial Day holiday here in the US So we hope all you Americans enjoy the unofficial start to summer as that gets underway. And in the meantime, if you love this show and want to help us keep this show running smoother than a meeting between Albus and Cornelius, visit patreon.com mugglecast and pledge today you'll get instant access to two bonus Mugglecast episodes every month. You'll also get ad free episodes, a new physical gift every year, and a lot more. In the latest bonus Mugglecast, I put together something special for our audience. It is finally here as Pride Month approaches, I am pleased to release the Never Severus audiobook. This is my Cursed Child fan fiction that follows Albus and Scorpius because even though it was clear they were in love with each other during the play, the play decided to go down different way with their story. I was not happy with it, so I wrote my own fan fiction fixing it all. It is extremely graphic. Adults only please. Again, this is available on Patreon, but this is also available as a one time purchase on our Patreon for $8. Mugglecast will donate 50% of proceeds from the sale of this book to the Trevor Project, which is a suicide prevention hotline for LGBTQ youth. And your purchase will also include a PDF version of the manuscript. Never Sever Us is currently available nowhere else. This is the place to get it. So enjoy everybody who narrates the audiobook. Yours truly. Oh yeah, and we have another bonus Mugglecast coming up later this month, right Micah?

[Micah]

That's right, Andrew. We did some hot takes from the Harry Potter series, some of which relate directly to Order of the Phoenix. Laura, honestly, I couldn't help but think of you as I was going through all the reddits and subreddits that I could find for Harry Potter hot takes because it reminded me so much of Harry Potter fanfiction and I am blown away by some of the hot takes that are out there very much. Like I would say Andrew's warning maybe not as graphic for this bonus Muggle cast, but there are definitely some adults topics that we're going to get into talking about.

[Andrew]

So for example, the Shrieking Shack was Mooney and Padfoot's Shag Pad. Ooh, that's fun. Other great ways to support us. You can pick up [e-mail] youm can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app and you can tell a friend about our show. Meanwhile, over in our Overstock store, we also have mugglecast 19 years later t shirts available for purchase. These are only available while supplies last, so visit mugglemillennial.etsy.com to grab yours. And finally, visit Mugglecast for quick access to all this information and lots more like our contact form and the Quizzage form. Now it's Time for chapter by chapter, Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 27, the Centaur and the Sneak.

[Eric]

You know, we had a lot of fun naming the last episode to discuss this chapter. It was Mugglecast464 called Dumbledore Gone Wild Fun. I think that's pretty accurate. And it was released on May 5th of 2020. Here's a small clip from that.

[Laura]

Three turns should do it.

[Andrew]

Any good luck?

[Laura]

What the.

[Eric]

Episode 464. Nobody was expecting the the Golden Goose, Dumbledore himself to come out and say, I did this. And so everyone is forgiving Harry's transgressions because they've gotten a much bigger prize.

[Andrew]

Yep, exactly.

[Laura]

Dumbledore even says this. He's like, this is a bit like, you know, trying to find a Canute, but actually finding a galleon.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

And we know from our recent quizzes that there are 29 canutes to a sickle and 17 sickles per galleon. That's like 493 canutes.

[Micah]

Good for you, Eric.

[Laura]

So Fudge is rich Mysterious thing time. Did we all have Covid in that episode five years ago? Because we all sound so super stuffy and miserable. So I was like, were we all sick?

[Eric]

It's a classic tactic of making the audio from past years worse so that we sound better. Currently, I went and manipulated that old clip.

[Andrew]

Oh, it was recorded or it was released May 5, I think we were hungover from Star wars day the day before. May the fourth be with you.

[Laura]

Yeah, like you do.

[Micah]

Cooped up for two, three months.

[Andrew]

Starting to lose our minds.

[Laura]

Yeah. We were like, this can't last much longer, can it? Anyway, let's get back into this chapter and thought that we could pick it up by focusing the first part of our discussion around Forenz and his class. That really is the focal point of the first half of this chapter.

[Eric]

So.

[Laura]

So there is a lot of excitement coming off the last chapter with the announcement that Forens is going to be the new Divination teacher. Primarily, I think on the parts of students like Parvati Patil and Lavender Brown who are very taken by this very handsome centaur who's going to be teaching them as kind of a reminder and a connecting the thread moment. Or a connecting the threads moment. For us, Forenz is the centaur who saved Harry in the Forbidden Forest during Sorcerer's Stone, AKA Philosopher's Stone. And much like five years ago, Mars is shining brightly in Forensic's classroom turned planetarium.

[Andrew]

I really enjoy it that the Mars is shining brightly got referenced again. I Made that connection myself while reading because that's one of those iconic lines from the first Harry Potter book.

[Laura]

Mars is bright tonight and Hagrid's like, cool, how do we get out of here.

[Andrew]

Anyway?

[Laura]

But Hermione is already starting out this chapter kind of shading forens. She's being, I guess, too cool for school in this instance. While everyone else is impressed by him, she's pretty dismissive, right, Micah?

[Eric]

I think Parvati and Lavender are trying to have like one up on her, like, oh, Hermione, you were too cool for school last divination teacher. What about now? And she's, you know, reacting kind of defensively.

[Micah]

She definitely is. And it's a bit surprising that she isn't more open minded about what I would call a creature teacher. But I love that the comments she makes about friends are offensive. If we're to be truthful here in this moment. And the fact that Hermione says that she doesn't like horses is a bit out of character for her, I have to say. And not only that, she doubles down. When Parvati calls out the fact that he's not a horse, he's a centaur, her response is, well, he's still got four legs. And yeah, I don't know if it's just the. And we can talk more about this. The lack of interest that she has in a subject matter like Divination, the fact that maybe she doesn't really like Parvati or Lavender all that much, but still for her, especially the fact that she is so adamant about something like Spiu to reference Forenz in this way, who's now a professor of the school. Yeah, that just doesn't seem in line with her character.

[Eric]

I would agree. I do think that because this is the very opening paragraph of this chapter and it shows the passage of time to me. I read it with a little eye for just being one of those things where if you take it out, it's controversial, but if you put it in like, oh, and this was happening and this was a conversation at lunch and then they went to this class, it's like, it's less impactful, it's less scandalous. I think when viewed in the context of the chapter had to start somehow. If it were at a pivotal moment in someone's day or there was, I don't know, more of an intention behind that moment, I think it would have been a little bit even more damning for Hermione. Her comments aren't great, but they do just start a chapter that has so much else Going on.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I do think it is her prejudices about divination. Trelawney has left a very bad taste in her mouth and she doesn't feel optimistic that a quote unquote horse is going to be any better. So that's what I think mainly is at play here.

[Eric]

The cool thing is during this chapter, we see how wrong Hermione is and how cool the class is. Like, everyone who attends, I think, is pretty much blown away. So I think also it's maybe a writing trick to, like, lower our expectations so that when we get to that part of this chapter, we're like, oh, wow, that was actually fabulous.

[Laura]

Yeah. I think that this is also Hermione acting out of character because she's being petty. And we see this from her at a few points in the series. We're going to see it again in Half Blood Prince when she's trying to make Ron jealous over his relationship with Lavender. So Hermione, when she's feeling, like, socially threatened, I guess, and she's being petty back to somebody, she'll. She'll throw some low blows and some things that she wouldn't normally say. It's certainly not something that she would say to Forenza's face. In fact, I don't think she would behave towards a centaur with anything but respect. But what you say about people behind their backs also says something about you. And I think this is a lesson that Hermione is going to have to continue learning. I mean, she's a good person. I don't think this makes her a terrible human being, but it shows that she has biases and she allows those biases to undermine her perceptions of how valuable the people are around her. Right. So I just think this is. This is one of those areas where Hermione has some room to mature.

[Andrew]

Every once in a while, she throws us a curveball. Just, wow. I would not expect that of Hermione. We've discussed before, too, how she can be a bit of a baddie when she needs to be. I'm thinking right now of setting Snape on fire in Sorcerer's Stone. It wasn't him. It was messing with Harry. You know, she just kind of like, she, again, has these curveballs that you don't expect from her. But it keeps me humble when it comes to my thoughts on Hermione. She's not perfect.

[Eric]

Well, I know we'll bring this up later, but the situation with Marietta shows Hermione's harder edges as well.

[Andrew]

Yes. In that case, I think it was a Good idea, but we can get to that.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Laura]

Well, Eric, you kind of called this out a couple of minutes ago here, but turns out forensic class is actually really cool. And I would argue that he brings a new level of credibility to the discipline of divination. As a matter of fact, he does. So to the extent of saying, yeah, humans, you know, y' all are subject to your limitations and there's only so good that humans are going to be at this. And even when I think it's Lavender tries to push back about something that Trelawny had taught them. And Forens is like, yeah, Sybil Trelawney is also human, so she is also subject to the same limitations as the rest of you. And it's a little humbling, I think, for everybody to realize that there are aspects of this discipline that are much more like cosmic and macro than people could ever conceive of. Because people are just kind of inherently self centered. And we like to think of ourselves at the center of the universe, but we're really not. So this was cool.

[Eric]

It's true.

[Andrew]

Hermione should have attended this class. Maybe she would have had a very different feeling about Friends quickly had she did. Because of what Friends Sense says here. And my takeaway from friends, his message to the class is he's preaching and he's about quality over quantity. Friends says that he doesn't know if Trelawney is a true seer or not. But centaurs, he says, can take up to a decade to read the stars and figure out what's going on in the universe. They're not about rushing to judgment. Whereas it seems like any time any sort of quote unquote prediction pops into Trelawney's mind, she has to blurt it out immediately. Oh, Harry, you're going to die, by the way, like really soon. Cool, thanks. That's great to hear as a child.

[Eric]

Right. And it's also about, I think, the content of what the predictions are being made too. You know, Forens is very much adamant that the types of things you divine from things like stargazing are the big moments, not, you know, whether you're going to have a nice afternoon. And so I think there's, there's that aspect and the much removed aspect of not centering it around humans at all. I just really love this lesson. I think it's pretty fantastic. It seems like Forens came into this with a degree of emotional awareness, aware that the students have probably many of them never seen a centaur before. They're going to make Some comments that would be offensive. Offensive. Dean, I think, puts his entire foot in his own mouth in this episode or in this chapter, you know, and quickly is like, oh, sorry. I didn't mean to. But, you know, again, just really, this comes from having a rich world where humans are not the only sentient race. So the idea that these other magical creatures also practice divination, and it makes sense that it would be like, a different form of divination, makes this, again, a really interesting subject.

[Laura]

Yeah. And I wanted to ask y' all, you know, what we make of Forensic's vibe in this lesson, because we're simultaneously in a lesson where we're learning about, like, the high stakes of this discipline. And Forens foretelling that there is a war just around the corner and, you know, sort of talking about the dire circumstances that'll play out. But then at the end of the lesson, he's like, but don't worry about it. If you don't see any shapes or signs in the smoke, in the fires I'm having, you burn. Because humans aren't that good at this anyway, so you can't control the arc of the universe. Don't worry about. Just feels very inconsistent to me because on the one hand, there's incredibly high stakes with predicting a war, but on the other, there's nothing you can do about it anyway, so it's fine.

[Micah]

Do you think it's hard, conceptually, for the students to understand the way in which Forens is teaching? I'm not sure. They've been in a class like this before where even the teacher is saying, look, what I'm putting out there may not be 100% true.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's so refreshing. Yeah, well. And compare that to Trelawney being like, read these tea leaves and tell us what they mean. Or write some. Log your dreams in your dream diary and decode them like there's something actually within the dreams that you're supposed to take a message from. It's very refreshing how Friends is teaching compared to Trelawney.

[Eric]

Did you guys peek at the reference to mallowsweet leaves, which is a big Hogwarts legacy? Herb. It's what you drop on the Merlin trials. I am quite sure that I didn't really know what that was the last time we went through this chapter. So very exciting there.

[Laura]

Yeah, it's great to know what Herb, you're gonna have to drop on, like, 300 different Merlin trials to do the same five puzzles over and over again.

[Micah]

One of the other things that I find to be Kind of interesting to look at is Trelawney's classroom versus Forensa's classroom. So often we're told about how Trelawney's classroom is this really stuffy, perfume infested.

[Andrew]

Hot, hot.

[Micah]

Yeah, you're right. It's suffocating in a way. So is that the right learning environment for students versus this beautiful replica of the Forbidden Forest where students are just very relaxed and they can stretch their legs and lean up against rocks and trees and they have the stars above them. It's something to be said for creating an environment where students can more readily learn.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I don't think Trelawney's classroom, as we just described it, would be a good environment to clear your head within. That is not a good space to practice divination. That said, I can't. I want to give Friends credit for the design of this classroom, but it was Dumbledore who set this up for him. Right. To recreate the experience of being in the forest. So Friends felt like he was more in his natural habitat. So I love the classroom, but I can't give Friends credit for it.

[Eric]

I'm not 100% sure because friends does this thing with his arm where he lowers it and the lights go down and he's definitely got some form of magic.

[Laura]

Yeah, I mean, they probably worked on it together. Ultimately, Forens can't teach them in the forest, not even on the edge of the forest, the way Hagrid does. Because he's been banned. Right?

[Eric]

That's the whole thing.

[Laura]

He's been expelled from the hurt. He literally has a hoof shaped bruise on his chest.

[Micah]

Got rough last night.

[Eric]

He's open about it though, which is a really interesting thing. Like, whereas Hagrid, who's getting injury after injury and keeps it all secret, Forens is 100% clear with, I think, all the students why and how the circumstances were around this very obvious bruise on his chest. And it has to do with his culture. And I don't know, I really come away from this chapter going, Forenz is probably one of my favorite characters. Like, he's right up there with Sirius Black, y' all, because he's just cool.

[Laura]

He's just neat. I agree. And to that point, Micah, you called out here that Forenz is pretty progressive for a centaur.

[Micah]

Yeah, he is. And I think we get that from some of the story he gives us and the fact that he has been banished. He references how in the past he's been chastised for certain things, like letting Harry ride on his back. Back in Sorcerer's Stone. Almost like he's a quote unquote, not to borrow a term from Hermione, but a common mule. Right. And the other Centaurs do not look favorably upon that. And the other thing that gets brought up is the fact that he agreed to teach here at Hogwarts. He agreed to come and work for Dumbledore. So it is interesting to see that there are things like customs and power dynamics that exist amongst the Centaurs just like they do amongst the wizards.

[Laura]

Yeah. I also find it interesting to kind of debate what does Forens actually believe because he espouses a lot of the same rhetoric we hear from the Centaurs about how in the cosmic sense, none of your tiny day to day human affairs or lives really matter that much. So there's no point in interfering. But Forenz interferes all the time. He interferes in book one when he rescues Harry and he interferes here by basically filling this position so that Umbridge can't put another Ministry loyalist in at Hogwarts.

[Eric]

Oh, right.

[Laura]

So I'm like, is that really what you think, Forens?

[Eric]

Yeah, Bold moves for a pacifist.

[Laura]

Right, Right.

[Eric]

Well.

[Micah]

And we know that there is a confrontation coming at the end of this book between Umbridge and the Centaurs. And so I wonder, is this like a little bit of a hint for us as readers that that's coming down the line?

[Laura]

Well, we're going to get back to our divination lesson here in just a moment, but first a quick word from our sponsors. In case you haven't heard, it's officially in Abercrombie Summer.

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[Micah]

Yeah, you might say that they're Forens.

[Andrew]

Oh, there's the dad joke. There it is.

[Laura]

I was. You know what? I was wondering when it was coming. I knew it was coming. I was like, it has to be during the divination lesson. It's gonna have to do with Forenz. I'll give that one a 7 out of 10. That was pretty good.

[Micah]

Thank you.

[Laura]

Yeah, that was pretty good. But Firenze also uses this opportunity to speak a little more at length about the coming war and the fact that we're actually not really in a period of peace. We're just in a period of calm between two wars. So have fun, children. But what I loved about this, and it feels like a little more malicious compliance from Dumbledore, is that Forens is well within his rights to talk about the coming war because this directly has to do with the discipline that he's teaching. So he's in adherence with educational decree, whatever the hell it was that said teachers couldn't talk to students about anything that they weren't experts in.

[Eric]

Yeah. I wonder why Umbridge isn't supervising the first lesson held by the new teacher. That's kind of her job now, isn't it?

[Laura]

Yeah. Ooh, ooh. Alternate headcanon. Because we see that the students are initially heading towards the staircase because they're trying to go up to the tower. What if Umbridge did the same thing and no one, like, thought to tell her? Do you really think a centaur is going to be able to get all the way up there?

[Eric]

Right.

[Andrew]

She goes.

[Eric]

Also, a regular horse might not be able to climb, like a ladder, but I think a centaur could figure it out.

[Andrew]

I think he could too, just use his upper arms to climb that ladder.

[Laura]

That's a lot. But he'd have to get all the way up, up to that tower. First. He'd have to climb all those stairs.

[Eric]

Again, I think he could do it.

[Micah]

Muggle cast in no way endorses animal cruelty.

[Andrew]

Well, who the hell wants to go in that classroom anyway? Least of all friends. Like, if it's stuffy and hot and smells like Trelawney and all her bad perfume.

[Eric]

No. Given the alternative, I would absolutely take the. The forest classroom. And. And it's even an improvement for the classroom. Usually the classroom is not this cool either. It's, like, disused. Nobody uses it. It was perfect. And. And Dumbledore is Pl. And Forens's acknowledgment or like his helping out by preventing the Ministry from interfering further at Hogwarts is definitely a solid. I kind of wonder how Forenz is, like, supposedly grading all of this because divination, his type of divination especially, doesn't seem very, like, precise or measurable. But that's probably the last concern. I mean, Dumbledore doesn't care how the teachers grade.

[Laura]

No.

[Eric]

And Forenz is cool enough to just kind of impart what wisdom he may have.

[Laura]

Well, I think he's also doing Harry a solid here because this timing, the timing of friends coming in, being very impressive, clearly uber qualified to be teaching this subject and saying, yeah, kids, there's a war coming right on the heels of Harry's quibbler interview. Who Chef's kiss could not have asked for better timing. I think Forens is helping to seal the deal with a lot of Harry's peers here.

[Eric]

I definitely think he is making people more like, whether they realize it or not, softening the blow about a future war when it devolves is like you heard it here first kind of. I think there's that element to it. And yeah. Can we talk about how friends like shakes Harry's hand and it's really frigging cool that Harry knows a centaur. Like they're on speaking terms with him and he asks him to stay back after class. And that's totally unrelated to boosting Harry, but it nevertheless has the effect of boosting Harry's cool factor. It's the first of two times in this chapter where another creature, like totally non human, one of Harry's close confidants and friends comes right up to him in front of all these people and has like important things to say to him. It really shows how worldly Harry is. It shows that while the Daily Prophet was busy maligning Harry for who knows what and all this random stuff, he actually is a pretty cool guy who has a lot of connections throughout the larger world.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I was going to say, I think this helps give Harry some much needed standing right now amongst his peers. It helps him look like a more trustworthy figure even though they're all just kind of being introduced to centaurs. And I think it says a lot for how Harry is handling this too. He's not being braggadocious about this encounter right now.

[Eric]

Guys, look.

[Andrew]

Yeah, right. Exactly like Draco might have if he was friends with friends or anybody else.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah. Professor, can we get a selfie? Father would love this, you know, kind of a thing.

[Laura]

Oh, God.

[Micah]

It's also important to keep in mind, Eric, you made me think about what's coming later on in this book and what Harry has already seen. And that's the Fountain of Magical Brethren. And I think that there's some through lines here to the points that you raised with the fact that he is on good terms with Forens. Dabi shows up later on in this chapter and the centaur and the house elf are part of that statue that do come to his rescue a little bit later on.

[Laura]

I love that. That's a great call out.

[Eric]

It is really cool. Too bad we don't get friendship or an understanding with Griphook for two more books.

[Micah]

Yeah, they're goblins.

[Eric]

Okay.

[Micah]

Hey, if Hermione can do it, so can I. Yeah.

[Eric]

Wow. Yeah, wow.

[Laura]

Well, friends, you know, not every secret that he knows is something that can be found in the stars. He also knows what's up with Hagrid because he gives Harry a pretty cryptic message to pass on to him. Literally just saying he would do better to abandon it. His attempt is not working. Whatever the hell that's supposed to mean to Harry. We can't know at this point, obviously, but Harry soon after tries to bring this to Hagrid. And Hagrid very quickly brushes him off and says, some things are more important than a job. When Harry's expressing his concern that, hey, Trelawney just got sacked and you're basically next on the chopping block, can you please be careful? And Hagrid's like, no, this is more important. I mean, it's his brother. I get it.

[Eric]

It's wild though, how distracted Hagrid is this year. Like, remember when Hermione was trying to help do him lesson plans that he wouldn't get sanctioned? And then he ends up getting sanctioned like, but he didn't care because he's so distracted by Grop. Now even the warnings that are coming from other creatures telling Hagrid to desist are being completely ignored.

[Micah]

He's not good at his job anyway, so that might be part of the reason why he doesn't care.

[Eric]

Maybe that makes him not good at his job and also not being good.

[Micah]

Yeah, I will say that there may not be a line that I relate to more in the Harry Potter series at this point in time than some things are more important than a job. Hagrid, just throwing out some real world advice there for anybody who's reading along with us.

[Laura]

That's some real talk.

[Andrew]

And poor Harry, who, who has yet another mystery on his hands like, this guy can never escape some questions haunting him.

[Micah]

What is this about?

[Andrew]

Now he's got to go tell Hagrid, right?

[Micah]

And that could get him in trouble because he doesn't want to be seen by Umbridge.

[Andrew]

Yeah, can he figure out another way to get the message to Hagrid?

[Eric]

I like that.

[Micah]

That's.

[Eric]

That's pretty funny.

[Laura]

Well, unfortunately for Harry, this is not the only thing he's going to be trying to do to fly under the radar this chapter. But this next thing is an area where he is unsuccessful. So the DA is meeting and I would say again, upping Harry's cool factor. He is finally introducing Dumbledore's army to Patronuses. So they're learning how to cast those now. And so far only Hermione and Cho are able to produce full Patronuses, which I think is an important reminder to call out that Cho is also really gifted academically and this is a likely sign that she excels in her courses. We don't really get to see much of this side of Cho. Most of what we get to see is her being a teenager grieving some pretty significant trauma. But I think sometimes, because that's so heavy, we tend to forget that there's this other side to her character.

[Micah]

Well, of course she's gifted. Laura. She's a Ravenclaw.

[Laura]

I know. I just. I had to represent for my girl, you know?

[Eric]

I know. I appreciate this. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Oh, God. I was just gonna do a dumb joke.

[Eric]

I.

[Micah]

What?

[Eric]

Oh, please. I. Now I really want to hear it.

[Andrew]

I. I was just gonna say, of course she's talented because she caught Harry's eye. See? Dumb.

[Eric]

Well, I was gonna mention, too, her Quidditch playing, which the reason that I. I. So it's, like, to a detriment of understanding and appreciating Cho's character, given what she, by extension, of Marietta, does in the next couple of chapters. The fact that Harry's banned from Quidditch means that we also won't get to see, like, Cho do some really cool things in a match. So that's, like, another area where she's really good at something. She's super cool. She's their team's seeker. She and Harry have a lot in common. That never comes up really.

[Laura]

Well, I thought that we could also talk about the Patronus forms that Hermione and Cho have. I think it speaks to both of their characters. So Hermione's is an otter. And in Celtic and other folklore, the otter is often characterized as friendly and a helpful creature, and it's often given the name water dog, alluding to these qualities. They are cheerful, curious, and mischievous by nature. Otters are also highly social pack animals who never stray far from their family. And, Micah, you have a fun call out here. Always a good one to observe that.

[Micah]

Otters are, in fact, part of the weasel family. So perhaps this was a little bit of a hat tip to the fact that Hermione would be joining the Weasleys in the not too distant future.

[Andrew]

When I read that note, I was like, is Micah trying to call Hermione a weasel, or is it a Weasley reference? I can't. Well, I don't. I never know with you. The.

[Eric]

I'm pretty sure that this revelation exists in, like, the first 20 episodes of podcast. Yeah. Otter. Weasel connections. It's amazing. Like, I. Jamie's mind was blown. I think Ben blows Jamie's mind. He's like, oh, is there a Connection. It was you. Oh, my God.

[Micah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eric]

Okay.

[Micah]

Don't give Ben credit for my.

[Eric]

Sorry. Geez. And I even went back through that episode recently. Damn.

[Andrew]

I would have loved to have a otter Patronus, because just you think about how cute otters are, and that's the thing. Taking down a dementor like that sounds amazing.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Micah]

It's also probably worth mentioning that the author adores otters, so it's not surprising that this Patronus was given to Hermione.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Laura]

Otters really are the cutest. I got to go to an otter encounter at the Atlanta Aquarium last year, and I got to boop their little noses. I got to touch little noses. They're so cute.

[Andrew]

Did you actually say boop when you boop to their nose?

[Laura]

Yeah, of course I did. Happy?

[Andrew]

These Patronas, they're so cute. Laura goes to a lot of animal encounters. She went to a red panda encounter a couple of years ago.

[Laura]

Yep. I'm gonna do a capybara encounter soon. A capybara. Take me home, actually. Yeah. I will take so many pictures.

[Andrew]

Are you gonna boop their nose?

[Laura]

If they'll let me. I think my Patronus is a capybara now. If I want to go with you.

[Andrew]

I want to boop.

[Laura]

I'll boop your nose next time I see you, too, Andrew. Don't worry.

[Andrew]

Okay, sure. It'll happen, like, three years from now, and I'll be like, why the hell is pooping.

[Laura]

Why are you touching me?

[Andrew]

She'll be like, I didn't forget.

[Eric]

This show just got so adorable.

[Laura]

Well, getting back to these Patronuses chose Patronus is a swan, and swans are associated with love, fidelity, innocence, grace, and transformation. I thought transformation was a really key word here. Right. Because you hear the old adage about going from being an ugly duckling into a beautiful swan, and I think in this regard, the transformation really refers to the emotional distress and the trauma that Cho has to navigate in order to get through that and be able to be a better version of herself on the other side of it. I don't think we ever really get to see that, unfortunately.

[Eric]

I like that a lot. I was going to say she transforms from being girlfriend material for Harry to absolutely not.

[Laura]

Well, that's true. That's true. That's one transformation that she makes. But I like to think that maybe there's a longer implication here, but we'll never know.

[Eric]

We should have gotten more of Cho in book seven, like, after the cards are all on the table, and had a big moment with her.

[Andrew]

I think you could also say she was kind of forced to transform after losing Cedric, so suddenly transform into a stronger version of who she already was just because of going through something so traumatic.

[Eric]

So, over on Spotify, we're going to be creating the Cho Gets Swole playlist. Submit your.

[Laura]

You know, Cho tracks well, unfortunately for the da, Dobby shows up to give Harry some very unwelcome news, which is that Umbridge knows and she is on her way to bust them. And unfortunately for Dobby, we kind of get to see a repeat of the pattern we saw in Chamber of Secrets where Harry had to watch Dobby kind of beat the crap out of himself for giving Harry a warning.

[Andrew]

Yeah, and good thing he is able to get out the word she. Like, she, she's coming. Because otherwise I don't know if Harry would have figured it out as quick as he did. Because Dobby is, like, you're saying, Laura, resisting giving details. Poor guy.

[Micah]

Why though? Is it because he technically works for Hogwarts? Is it a bit of PTSD in terms of what he would normally do if he betrayed the Malfoys previously? Because he doesn't work for Umbridge. I mean, he works for the school.

[Eric]

He works for the school.

[Andrew]

But I do sort of feel like it's in a house elves DNA to just not share another human secret whether or not they are owned by that person.

[Eric]

It's interesting because we also had forens in this chapter choosing not to tell Harry Hagrid's secret. Now, Dabi, we know, is a good little informant, but it's interesting that Dobby says that the house elves were told not to, like, warn. Like, what I want to know is.

[Micah]

Probably an Umbridge directive, right?

[Eric]

Yeah, but like, what does that look like? Because house elves shouldn't even be on Umbridge's radar. Unless she used one to, like, help with Marietta, maybe. Because it's implied later that Umbridge sat there trying to spell Marietta better, and maybe she's like, I need a house elf for this. But, like, under what circumstances would Umbridge reach out specifically to the house elves to specifically tell them, don't warn these people that I. She could actually have just run up and got them at that time, busted them. So it's very interesting.

[Laura]

Yeah. I mean, unless she knows about the connection Dobby has to Harry, if she.

[Eric]

Told Dobby specifically not to, like, rat it out, then Dobby's an extra goat for actually being able to still do that. Because I do think that as a professor of Hogwarts, Umbridge has the authority to order the house elves around, they have to obey her in the same way that they would have to obey someone else. Dobby is a free elf. He kind of just chooses to work for Hogwarts. Old habits die hard. Maybe he still feels that, you know, to his soul has to punish himself for divulging secrets of his master. So there's that. But then he also kind of works for Harry. So when Harry says don't hurt yourself anymore, he also kind of has to abide by. It's just weird. He thanks Harry graciously for commanding him in that way. It's kind of an interesting test, I guess.

[Andrew]

Micah, you dived into the transcripts and you found proof that you had that otter weasel connection.

[Eric]

Come on.

[Micah]

I did. You know, that's the beauty of having the transcripts and shout out to Meg. Although I believe since this was episode 20, it's likely I was responsible for this transcript.

[Eric]

I bet.

[Micah]

Oh.

[Andrew]

So we don't know if this is entirely accurate. Maybe you rewrote history.

[Micah]

You could go back and listen to the audio. So if you want to pull that for this upcoming episode, I think that would be fantastic.

[Eric]

This is the one I remember. Is there? Oh my God. Yeah, amazing.

[Micah]

So there were a lot of oh my gods thrown around after I made this revelation that the weasel and the otter are related. So Ben said, oh my God.

[Andrew]

Micah has discovered the key to the Harry Potter shipping series. Do you guys see this?

[Eric]

That's why I remember Ben being there is cause he said, yeah, that that.

[Andrew]

Is a significant comment because we didn't know at the time that Ron and Hermione were eventually going to get married. So it truly was a key, I think. Did we?

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

I had the same thought, Andrew. I had the same thought that it was like particularly looking forward.

[Andrew]

Uh huh. But it was likely. But we didn't know.

[Eric]

Well we did have book six where Hermione is very, very, very upset about Ron and lavender.

[Laura]

So I mean also book four with the Yule Ball, like.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, but there's that young love and then it falls apart sometimes. Laura, don't I know it.

[Eric]

Like Cho and Harry.

[Micah]

It might be worth pulling the clip just to hear Jaime alone, but.

[Andrew]

Oh my God, Micah, that's absolutely awesome.

[Micah]

There's nothing better than a Jamie reaction like that. No, there really isn't.

[Laura]

All right, well we are going to come back to cover the end of the chapter. But first one more break to hear some words from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping Prime Helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more.

[Micah]

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[Laura]

See sales associate for details.

[Micah]

Offer valid 515 through 528.

[Laura]

All right, and we are back on the heels of Dobby warning Harry and company that Umbridge is en route. So the DA scatters. They don't do it in like the most efficient way. They all literally cram into the doorway to try and all get out at the same time. And it creates like, like a bottleneck at the door and it's taking people a long time to get out. And ultimately this results in Harry being one of the of the few, I believe, who actually gets apprehended. And he gets apprehended by none other than Draco Malfoy who is delighted to hand Harry over to Umbridge. And I thought it was really interesting to compare this scene to the moment in Deathly Hallows at Malfoy Manor where Draco has another opportunity to hand Harry over that time to Voldemort. And he's a lot more hesitant about making that decision because the stakes are higher in this. You know, Draco gets to feel giddy because his schoolboy enemy might be getting expelled. But then in a couple years time when the consequence is death, Draco realizes he's in over his head.

[Eric]

He's learned the value of human life, or at least Harry's life. Maybe he's in over his head so much and he knows Harry's the only one that could really pull him out of it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, well, and given what we know about, given how sensitive this organization is and how important it is to keep it under lock and key, it is surprising that they didn't have some sort of emergency plan if this type of situation did arise. Sure, we have Hermione's jinx to prevent anybody from spilling, but it was still possible Umbridge & Co. Could find out. At the least, they should have done a sort of fire drill to prevent what you're describing, Laura. And this is exactly why we practice and why you hear, you know, single file, lie, no running, everybody be calm. They weren't following any of those rules. It was. Let's. Graham.

[Micah]

I will say the way they did in the movie was actually really well thought out. Right. They used the Marauders map and they were sending people out almost in waves, if I'm remembering correctly. So that. Or at least maybe that was another. That wasn't that particular scene. They did it previously, Right. When they were trying to leave the room of Requirement. So. Yeah, but I think to your point, Andrew, utilizing that type of a tactic would have gone a lot better for them if they were using something like the Marauders Map to see, okay, where is Umbridge, where is, you know, Draco, all these other folks who are after them. And then strategically, like, who's to say the room wouldn't have given them a back door? Or who's to say, like the room would have let Umbridge in? You know, like. So I. It feels like they. They weren't prepared for this moment. They just go into panic mode.

[Eric]

They should have scouted the route a little bit more.

[Andrew]

Not bad.

[Eric]

Again, adding. No, I mean, they're in the room requirement. They could probably say we need two more exits.

[Micah]

Exactly.

[Eric]

But this just shows that this was only ever, you know, maybe like a temporary meeting place or temporary thing. Like they. They don't know what they don't know until it's too late. So really, the only person who prepared for any of this is Hermione, and you got to give her a little bit of credit.

[Laura]

Yeah. Yeah. It is unfortunate that they don't. I don't think they fully understand how the room works at this point because. Because don't we later discover that if they had just fought to the room, we also do not want to be discovered. Don't let anyone in here. The room probably still would have let Umbridge in, but she wouldn't have been let into the same room.

[Eric]

Right. The next book, Draco does that to keep her.

[Laura]

Exactly. So it's unfortunate that they don't. They don't know this at this point, but I guess it's also convenient for the plot.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I think they also just sort of got so excited by the concept of the rumor requirement that they really didn't bother to think much further. Like, this is foolproof. This is cool as hell.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And Dumbledore used to pee in here? That's weird. Anyway, he still does.

[Laura]

Well, speaking of Dumbledore, we're going to his office next. Umbridge hauls Harry there, and Dumbledore, McGonagall, Fudge, Percy, Kingsley and Dawlish are already waiting. I was wondering what the timeline of this was like. How did they manage to assemble all of these people in Dumbledore's office so quickly after the DA gets busted? Like, did Umbridge have enough notice of the meeting that she had time to get everyone together so that she could say, just wait like 30 minutes and I'm gonna bust them and bring the ringleader up here to the office?

[Andrew]

Umbridge yelled, aura's assemble.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And that's how they got there so quick.

[Eric]

Well, she says that Marietta came to her after dinner, slightly after dinner. So it really couldn't have been that long ago to have the Minister for Magic and two Aurors there. It's absolutely perplexing that they're all here in time for this.

[Micah]

Doesn't he not have anything more important to do with his time? He's the Minister for Magic, but he's dealing with these juvenile delinquents who are tied to Dumbledore.

[Andrew]

I think that's a big driving factor for Fudge to be here right now. He gets to win against Dumbledore, unlike.

[Eric]

Dumbledore, who doesn't wish to be monitored. So he takes like thestrals when he's leaving Hogwarts and stuff. Fudge could have just flew, especially because Ms. Edgecombe is in charge of that network.

[Micah]

Oh, I'm sure that Umbridge has Fudge.

[Andrew]

On speed dial, but Micah's just wondering why Fudge is bothering to go there to begin with. I guess I think Fudge and Umbridge have the hots for each other too, and they're gonna. They're going to help each other out where they can. They're going to be with each other.

[Eric]

When they movie ism, where she has a picture of him on her desk.

[Andrew]

Oh, right, yeah, that's. That's more evidence.

[Eric]

I think it's also important to realize that they're probably chomping at the bit for anything to discredit Harry specifically.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eric]

Especially following the Quibbler article. They need any dirt they can get. And so I think we've seen Umbridge over the last couple of weeks really, really try and do anything to discredit or stop Harry. And so that's why the minister too is like, personally involved in this, because they think they're going to be able to Expel him.

[Andrew]

He wants to be able to vouch for what Umbridge is saying as well, like, firsthand.

[Eric]

And the fact that, like, Percy is there too, like, Percy's there to, like, you know, they need as many legal witnesses so that whatever they were planning on doing was horrible.

[Micah]

That's such a great point. I didn't really think about that. This really has to do with the story that was in the Quibbler. And that's why you do have so many powerful figures present, including Percy, which he instructs specifically to get an owl to the Daily Prophet for the morning edition once Dumbledore comes clean.

[Eric]

Hey, guys. We finally have something horrible to slam against Potter for the first time in months.

[Laura]

Yeah, I definitely think the point, you know, about how high stakes that interview was. I mean, Harry flat out named alleged Death Eaters. I mean, we know they're not alleged, but to everyone else they are. But I think the other thing is too, Fudge is not doing a good job of keeping his side of the street clean. I mean, they just had a mass breakout at Azkaban. The Dementors have clearly chosen a side in the war, and he doesn't have. He doesn't exactly have good news to be delivering to his constituents. So it's all about deflection and optics. Like it's always been with Fudge, ever since we met him. Wow, he's the worst. But speaking of someone who's also kind of the worst, the traitor is discovered to be chose friend Marietta Edgecomb.

[Micah]

All goes back to Cho.

[Laura]

Yeah, I know, I know. Marietta. As Eric called out earlier, Marietta spills the beans to Umbridge not long before this meeting happens. And it's because her mom works at the ministry and she was worried about her mom's job, allegedly. But we always. We also know that Marietta has always kinda had a foot out the door when it came to the da. She only came to the first meeting because Cho wanted to go.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah.

[Micah]

She was the weak link.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. I still have a hard time accepting, though, that Marietta was worried about her mom's job. How is her mom's job gonna be on the line if nobody is ratting out the da? This is a pretty small, trustworthy group, I think, with the exception of the person who ends up ratting them out. So I just don't really get.

[Eric]

Must have to do. And I agree we do have to do some legwork here of, like, the behind the scenes things, but it must be that Umbridge is putting pressure on every or Fudge is putting pressure on Umbridge and everyone else to get dirt on Harry no matter what. Or to root out spies or corruption or fraud, you know, wherever they can find it. Because the whole situation is that Marietta's mom then is probably complaining to Marietta, going, I'm so stressed out at work. I don't know if I can do this for much longer. They've got me monitoring flu networks. Da, da, da, da. Marietta, who's young, impressionable, maybe a bit vain, maybe not, you know, the sharpest Ravenclaw, you know, in general is doing the right thing. I mean, it's just. This is the point of. I think what. How this oppression sort of works is that you give. Like, you make things horrible for so many people that they just. They have so much to lose, they retreat in themselves and they start thinking about what they could lose by not complying. And, like, they've already lost so much because of the oppressive state but they could lose so much more if they don't comply. And I could easily see Umbridge singing a song to this tune with Marietta. And to Marietta's credit, she doesn't really tell her a whole lot. Although that's also due to Hermione's spell kicking in.

[Laura]

Yeah, because she. What is it that Umbridge says? She catches one glimpse of herself in a mirror and immediately freaks out. So I think Marietta. Yeah, I mean, I would, too, but I think. Think Marietta would have kept singing like a canary if she hadn't been jinxed.

[Micah]

And it's an important distinction, too, because I know the movie, as we've pointed out here, does Cho Dirty. And they use Veretta's Serum as the means to which the truth gets revealed about Dumbledore's army. That's not the case here. Marietta went, as far as we know, willingly to Umbridge as you were talking about Eric, because of her mother's situation. But we also learned from Umbridge in this chapter that her mother has been helping the Ministry monitor the FLU network at Hogwarts. So presumably she had a hand in Umbridge almost catching Sirius just several chapters ago. And we don't know Marietta's mother. We don't know who she is as a person. She could be somebody who might think along the same lines as Umbridge or Fudge. And maybe she doesn't believe Harry's story. Maybe she doesn't trust Dumbledore. So she could be putting a lot of pressure on her daughter to do things on her own behalf.

[Eric]

True.

[Laura]

Well, and I'm sure Marietta probably feels a lot of pressure because she has to know what would happen and how it would look if the DA did get busted and it was revealed that Madam Edgecombe's daughter was in this, this subversive anti establishment group that was actively fighting Dolores Umbridge.

[Andrew]

The old Rita would have had a lot to say about that in the profit.

[Micah]

I mean, who left the list? Like honestly, that's just.

[Eric]

Supposed to be able to get in the room though. Like I hate giving Pansy Parkinson any credit, but the fact that she went in there is, is pretty badass.

[Andrew]

It's still just such clear evidence. Was the, it was the list even hidden? I don't think it was. Right. It was just like pinned up somewhere.

[Laura]

They had it on the wall.

[Andrew]

I do want to say on the, on the jinx with it putting sneak on Marietta's head and basically traumatizing her. I think the fact that Umbridge can't come up with a counter jinx to fix this and also doesn't truly know if by talking more about it, if it's going to get worse, it just speaks to how great of a jinx this was by Hermione. So I have no issues with her putting this jinx on everybody who signed that piece of parchment.

[Eric]

In addition to how it looks, you got to imagine it doesn't feel great to their, their purple pustules. Like, hello, that's probably awesome.

[Andrew]

Sometimes I'm in pain with just a little bit of acne. I'm like, I can't remove my face right now.

[Laura]

Snitches get stitches. That's what Hermione said.

[Micah]

Was wondering though, was Hermione actually inspired by Umbridge? Because this is not all that dissimilar from the detention that Harry has and I must not tell lies being etched into the back of his hand.

[Eric]

Like physical argument, maiming. Yeah, that kind of thing.

[Laura]

Yeah, that's a good call. I mean we know that she's inspired by Death Eaters when it comes to the points. Yeah.

[Eric]

Hermione went to a really dark place with everything to do with Da in this book.

[Andrew]

She's a little baddie, our little baddie.

[Eric]

I think the last book read through of this book, or maybe it was book six, Andrew, you were like, Hermione's a serial killer or something. Do you remember, do you remember keeping.

[Andrew]

I can't say I remember that, but.

[Eric]

Oh, okay.

[Andrew]

I could see her killing if necessary.

[Eric]

There are times when she goes way, way hard. For sure.

[Andrew]

Also it was really disgusting how fudge is noticeably quiet when Umbridge grabs Marietta trying to get more information out of her. Fudge is quiet while Albus, Minerva and Kingsley are rejecting. Like, I have to stop you right there, Umbridge, you cannot do that. Fudge doesn't care. And it speaks to his character.

[Laura]

Oh yeah, 100%. And speaking of his character, he's about to be real enthused because the smoking gun itself, AKA the DA list, is procured. Pansy Parkinson does grab it out of the room of requirement. And Umbridge presents this list with the title Dumbledore's army across the top. And it really is like Christmas has come early for Fudge because he thought he was just getting a Harriet expulsion in this week's episode. But what he's actually getting, or so he thinks, is an apprehension of Dumbledore.

[Eric]

You know what's funny is Dumbledore has to point it out to him. Like, the significance of. He's like, Cornelius, hello.

[Andrew]

Dumbledore's army, hello.

[Eric]

And Cornelius is like, oh, what? Oh, what? It's unbelievable how I love that. You can see the dawning. You can see both, both sides, how they react during this whole meeting, you see, you know, everything from Harry hearing Kingsley uttering a spell, which is not cool. We talked about this. There was a whole debate last time. But to the way that Umbridge has to like reveal what she knows. And Dumbledore's piecing that together to form the counter story. Like, you get to see every bit of new info get used immediately by Dumbledore in a wonderful deception. Not to mention a bad, you know, which precedes a badass exit. So it's really cool and like slowed down this whole scene.

[Andrew]

And we also see Albus very, very, very subtly tell Harry to not admit to what he did. I mean, that was like a very, like, it's a blink and you'll miss a moment as a reader just cause it was so subtle with him.

[Eric]

Just in time too. Harry's like, you. No.

[Andrew]

Yeah. No. He goes, yeah, no, no. You know, I don't know anything. Fudge.

[Laura]

It really does make me wonder what Dumbledore's plan was before the list got presented and he saw the golden opportunity to play into Fudge's biggest fear.

[Andrew]

Yeah, and we got to give it to Dumbledore. He lied on and very quickly came up with this lie, it seems. And we have had this segment on the show called the Dumbledore Lie Count. But you three have wanted to use it as a way to criticize Dumbledore. Whereas today we're actually kind of using it in a good way. He lied to protect Harry. He lied for the greater good.

[Eric]

Please, Harry, trust me. You liar.

[Andrew]

You're one Harry Potter. Oh my God. Prepubescent Dan Radcliffe.

[Eric]

That's what it took to bring this segment back. The Dumbledore lie count is a time when Dumbledore lies. But it's a good thing.

[Andrew]

It's a good reminder that he ain't all bad.

[Eric]

Actually, huge shout out to one of our listeners who pointed out that we actually not done that segment in a while while and it turns out since like Chapter 12 of Goblet of Fire on this read through.

[Micah]

Huh.

[Andrew]

Well, it's almost like he hasn't been lying.

[Eric]

Surely he's lied since then. We're going to be the next words out of my mouth. So maybe we'll have to do he.

[Laura]

Literally in this chapter before he takes his leave, he says to Harry, you have to keep practicing Occlumency. I promise you'll understand why very soon.

[Eric]

So.

[Andrew]

Well, what is soon really? I mean.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

What is one person soon is another person's later. It's all relative. It's all subjective.

[Laura]

Yeah. I mean ultimately though in what Dumbledore does here. And it is a good thing that Dumbledore does because he's keeping Harry at Hogwarts, which is where he's safest. He's keeping Harry at Hogwarts where he can continue studying Occlumency. Right. And hopefully try to keep those bad dreams at bay. We know he doesn't, but, you know, know, Dumbledore tried. Dumbledore does have this badass exit that you just called out, Eric. And I know we've, we have gone like line by line through the scene before, but it really is very incredible how quickly Dumbledore acts. I think we see, you know, very similar energy from him the night that Mr. Weasley gets attacked. And Dumbledore is immediately jumping to action and like sending portraits to do things and giving people instructions about where to go and who to talk to. And he does the same here. He incapacitates literally everyone in the room except for Harry McGonagall and Marietta. He even incapacitates Kingsley, who is in the order and on their side. But he knew that it would look suspicious if Kingsley had not been incapacitated. So he buys them, you know, a fraction of a moment to be able to say, you know, I'm not going to grim old place. Cornelius is really going to regret what he's done now. And he tells Harry you know, please do practice your Occlumency. It's really, really important. And Harry has that brief moment again where he wants to strike Dumbledore. Dumbledore makes brief physical contact with him and Harry's scar bursts into flame, or so it feels like. Yeah. And he does the Ralph Fiennes exclamation. So again, we're still seeing that Horcrux connection waking up and growing stronger.

[Micah]

One of the other things that I really loved about this scene in the movie is that you get the sense of just how intimidating a figure Dumbledore is because you see the. The fear in Fudge's eyes. You see the fear in Umbridge's eyes when he says he's not going to.

[Andrew]

Come quietly and his transition out of the room. Doesn't he, like, bring his arms up and clap his hands above his head? And that's when Fawkes transports him. It's pretty sweet. As Kingsley says, Dumbledore's got style.

[Laura]

Well, I think in the book, Phineas says that.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Laura]

Well, that is our chapter. We're going to get into some odds and ends.

[Andrew]

I just wanted to mention that there's a mention of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find them. Newt Scamander's book in this chapter. Harry forgets this book after leaving Hagrid's class. At least he pretends to forget it so he can go back and have a quick word with Hagrid without Umbridge being afoot. And one reason this jumped out to me is this is actually only the second mention of the book in the series so far. First mention in. In book one, and then we don't get another mention until Deathly Hal Hallows kind of surprises me when you think about what Fantastic Beasts turned into.

[Eric]

And it's fun because the book had been published by then. It was published in 2000 or 2001, between Goblet and Order of the Phoenix. And so maybe the author was like, oh, yeah, I remember this book after having written it now, just before writing.

[Andrew]

This book, wanted to plug it.

[Eric]

Yeah, but. But that's worth checking out. I don't know what versions they have in bookstores these days. Buy used. But Harry and Ron write in the margins. And it's like a very fun, kind of whimsical.

[Laura]

I remember getting that and immediately paging through it to read all of the notes that they wrote in the margins.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. And the new version has a foreword by Newt Scamander after the movie was released, I believe, as kind of a tie in. And I Think there's an illustrated edition now? They've expanded it in a few different ways. Same thing with Quidditch through the ages.

[Laura]

And now we are going to get into our MVP question of the week. This week's question is, what is Dumbledore's most Slytherin moment in this chapter? I think he has several.

[Andrew]

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that I'm going to. What is the phrase? Come quietly.

[Laura]

Amazing.

[Eric]

All right. Can't do better than that. I think this unfairly maligns Dumbledore in the premise. Calling him a Slytherin. That's nice to hear.

[Andrew]

I don't think so.

[Eric]

Okay. All right.

[Laura]

Well, Merlin was a Slytherin.

[Eric]

I'm gonna. Yes, he was. That's the second mention of Merlin in this episode. My MVP for Dumbledore is the non verbal signaling to Harry that Andrew mentioned when Harry is about to confess. All because he thinks he's sure, well and busted. Dumbledore's like. Harry's like, no. And yeah, good stuff. Very cunning.

[Micah]

Dumbledore, would you do me the honors of reading this quote?

[Andrew]

Sure. Don't be silly, Dawlish. I'm sure you are an excellent auror. I seem to remember that you achieved outstanding in all your newts. If you attempt to bring me in by force, I will have to hurt you.

[Micah]

What I love about it, in addition to Andrew's impersonation, there is just like. He personalizes it, right? Like that's part of. He's like, oh, I remember that you.

[Andrew]

I remember you, bitch.

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah.

[Micah]

Even though you did so well, I could still kick your ass with two hands tied behind my back.

[Laura]

And I have another, I think similarly toned moment. And Andrew, I wanted to see if you could do.

[Andrew]

Oh, my gosh.

[Laura]

Honor because you.

[Eric]

Oh, we're all picking up quotes and.

[Laura]

Having Andrew read them.

[Andrew]

I'm working double duty today.

[Laura]

You're the best at double, Andrew.

[Eric]

I did you a favor by choosing the non verbal moment.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Micah]

Your screen does say Dumbledore enthusiast.

[Andrew]

It does, yeah.

[Eric]

Impressionist, more like.

[Andrew]

So Laura's quote that she wanted to highlight is, I have absolutely no intention of being sent to Azkaban. I could break out, of course, but what a waste of time. And frankly, I can think of a whole host of things I would rather be doing. It was all over the place, but I didn't practice.

[Laura]

No, it was good. It was well done. So now we are going to turn to our links line smugglecast listeners who are members of our community [e-mail] mugglecast have answered this week's question, and this week's question was if you had the ability to magically change the title of the DA Roster from Dumbledore's army to something else, what would you change it to before Umbridge gets the chance to show it to Fudge?

[Andrew]

Carly Carly said the Chudley Cannons Fan Club would probably fly under the radar since no one cares about them except Ron.

[Eric]

Oh, I love the idea of like we know teams, group societies and clubs are banned at Hogwarts, but we just need to get together and support the Cannons. You guys love that. Jennifer says the Vigilant Defenders love that one.

[Micah]

Rachel says, to borrow a term coined by Ron, the House Elf Liberation Front.

[Laura]

Umbridge probably wouldn't like that. Ningxi said there is no club here. We just like to hang out here.

[Eric]

Are our names written oddly formally the.

[Andrew]

Not a Club Club?

[Laura]

Yeah, we just want to chill.

[Andrew]

Eleanor said Extra Study Club. It's accurate. They're learning what they should be doing in Dada and definitely flies under the radar.

[Laura]

I like that one.

[Eric]

Zachary says. I would say the Pink Kitten Club to pay homage to Umbridge's obsessions, but for obvious reasons, I'll have to rename it Fudge's Favorite Pupils when she goes to rat them out. His inflated ego would take over and dismiss the accusation.

[Andrew]

Oh yeah, Pink Kitten Club.

[Eric]

Dancing at the Pink Kitten Club. Pink Kitten.

[Andrew]

It works a little too well. Has to be the episode title.

[Micah]

Parth says the Defense against the Defense against the Dark Arts Club Club. Love that.

[Laura]

And Mev wrapped us up with the Peculiar Toad Club for Toad Enthusiasts. Yeah, Umbridge doesn't have anything to push back on on that, I don't think.

[Micah]

No, that sounds like something she started when she was in school.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I would join that. Don't forget everybody, you can participate in the links line every week by becoming a Mugglecast patron at patreon.com mugglecast we really appreciate your support. Thank you everybody who does support us. If you have feedback about today's episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to mugglecastmail.com Remember, we will be off next week, but in two weeks we will have a special episode of Mugglecast. Hope everybody has a nice holiday break if you're in America and hopefully many of you are spending time outdoors over Memorial Day weekend. While you're doing that, check out our other weekly podcasts, what the Hype and Millennial. For more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. What's going on? On what the Hype.

[Laura]

Yeah, on what the Hype. We're covering a lot of different fandoms right now, so we are still actively covering the Last of Us, which is airing on Sundays on HBO Max. We are doing live reactions to new episodes at 10:30pm Eastern Time on Sundays on YouTube. So. So please head on over to what the Hype podcast on YouTube to check those out. We also have a new episode out celebrating 25 years of Gilmore Girls and reacting fondly on that piece of cultural nostalgia. And additionally, we have a new feedback episode that will have come out by the time this episode of Mugglecast is released. So yeah, we got a lot going on over there. Come check us out.

[Andrew]

And then over on the latest episode of Millennial, we're discussing a decrease in alcohol consumption. What? Not because of Winky and I, as well as the rise of non alcoholic beers which I tried and spilled all over myself while recording the other day. So that was gross.

[Eric]

Lagonita's Hoppy Refresher, everyone. That is what I was.

[Andrew]

Is that alcoholic or non alcohol?

[Eric]

It's non alcoholic. It's amazing.

[Micah]

Okay.

[Andrew]

All right, well, now it's time for everybody's favorite Harry Potter trivia game, quizzage.

[Eric]

This week's question was in banning the Quibbler. Umbridge only raises more interest in it. The concept of banning something only making it more popular is colloquially known as the Streisand effect after actress Barbra Streisand sued a photographer for publishing a photo in 2003. The question is what was the photo of? Andrew, why don't you take this one?

[Andrew]

Her house.

[Eric]

That's exactly right. And it was a fairly zoomed out photo of her home on a cliff. And I don't think people really would have realized what it even was of until she sued and it got big. So heck of a thing. 33% of people with the correct answer did not look it up. And this week's winners included Kyle Patronus, Seeker. No quibbling with the Quibbler. A healthy breed. Borden Voldemort. Learning about world history. Irving courtside. And shout out to my super cool sister, Anna. Hi Anna. Here is next week's quizzed question. The fourth planet in our solar system is Mars, named for the Roman God of war. What did the ancient Greeks call their God of war? A little bit of a fairly more well known one this week. So enjoy submitting to us on the Kwizzitch forum on the Mugglecast website mugglecast.comquizzitch if you're already on the website, maybe you're checking out the must listens, reading transcripts. Say, for instance, episode 20. It was a good episode. Micah makes a really great point, you guys. The key to the key to the whole shipping series.

[Andrew]

The key to the shipping series.

[Eric]

Oh my God. So yes on mugglecast.com and click on Quizzage from the main nav.

[Andrew]

Thanks everyone for listening. Don't forget to visit patreon.com mugglecast to support us. Also, please leave a review in your favorite podcast app and tell a friend about the show. We'll see everybody in two weeks. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

Bye, everyone.

[Laura]

Bye.

[Andrew]

Sam.