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MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Re-Read Podcast
Romance and Rumors (HBP Chapter 15, 'The Unbreakable Vow')
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- [00:01]
A
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B
Hermione when she's having this conversation with Harry, it just made me think who are you to talk about the security protocols of the school and say that, oh, they're just love potions?
- [00:43]
C
Well, as the person who is the only person in this whole school who's read all of Hogwarts history, I feel that Hermione is uniquely qualified to talk about the security protocols in place.
- [00:54]
A
Just suggesting welcome to Mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.
- [00:59]
C
I'm Eric.
- [01:00]
B
I'm Micah.
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D
And I'm Laura and we're your Harry.
- [01:03]
A
Potter friends, here to talk about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show. So make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app and that way you'll never miss an episode. And this week brush up on your rot fang conspiracies because we're discussing chapter 15 of Half Blood, the Unbreakable Vow. But before we do that, if you love this podcast and want to be our Valentine, we invite you to Support us@patreon.com Mugglecast we'll hook you up with bonus episodes of the show, ad free episodes, live streams, a monthly Zoom hangout, and lots more. We can't do this show without support from listeners like you, so thank you in advance. And it allows us to carve out time to do lots of different Harry Potter things. Eric, you've got something on tap, right?
- [01:48]
C
Yes. Speaking of Valentine's, which is, as we all know, Gilderoy Lockhart's favorite holiday, if you tune in live to us on twitch on Saturday, February 14th at 11:00am Eastern, you're going to catch the opening run of the Chamber of Secrets PC game playthrough over on Mogocast's Twitch. And in fact, I'm working on a way for the rest of you guys to join us as well, through Riverside maybe, if you guys want to pop in during the gameplay. But we're going to be kicking off into The Chamber Secrets PC game, the recently played Sorcerer slash Philosopher's Stone PC game. All of that is up on YouTube. It's eight hours of Meg, me and My cat, Martha, going through it.
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A
Flipendo.
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D
I was going to ask how many times did you say flipndo? How many times did you cast it?
- [02:41]
C
We'd have to run it through AI to check, but I bet about 13,000.
- [02:45]
D
Yeah, sounds right.
- [02:46]
C
Somewhere around there.
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B
Will you be wearing lilac?
- [02:49]
C
Oh, I should. I should celebrate. Or I could dress in my Gilderoy Lockhart dueling outfit. I'm not sure we'll do a poll.
- [02:57]
A
So with peace and love. Not sure I'm going to be there on Valentine's Day, but I support this idea anyway.
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C
You have a special someone, Andrew, who's taking. I do.
- [03:05]
A
We don't have plans though, so I'll play it by ear. I'll play it by ear.
- [03:08]
C
That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Anybody's welcome to pop in. Pop by.
- [03:12]
A
Lauren and I haven't discussed our plans yet, so we'll let you know.
- [03:17]
D
I'll be in Los Angeles. Way to like low key launch things. I didn't know that was happening today.
- [03:25]
C
I ship it. Honestly, I ship it.
- [03:28]
B
Me too.
- [03:29]
A
All right, well, there are some other great ways to support us. To help us run this independent podcast, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. Like this one from a listener who called us as cozy as a warm blanket on a cold day. And they said, quote, I have to say that I have a long history with the show. I actually found it before I was ever really a fan of Harry Potter. I really grew up with the show. I even had a tattoo done related to your show. We need to hear more about that. Thank you all for the laughs, goofy and serious moments. Eric's constructive feedback and chatting, Micah's sarcasm and corny but sometimes more than PG13 humor. Andrew Sass in leadership and Laura's thoughtful and intelligent insight. You are right though. She is and was the voice of reason. All of you are smart and I am blessed that my family member found your show in 2006. You are like having online older friends that talk about Harry Potter. Well, thank you to who wrote that.
- [04:23]
D
That's really sweet.
- [04:24]
A
Yeah. So please do leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. You can also tell a fellow Muggle about our show and you can visit mugglecastmerch.com to buy shirts, hats, glassware and more. So that's how to support us. So we can do chapter by chapter. Like this week's chapter by chapter. Half Blood Prince, Chapter 15, the Unbreakable Vow.
- [04:42]
B
Wow.
- [04:42]
C
Which we last discussed way back on Mugglecast 403. The episode was called Party Good and it aired on January 28, 2019. Let's pop into the Pensieve and see what was happening on that episode. What you're looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I've collected. It is from mugucast episode 403.
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D
And it's not like these are ladies he knows either. They're just random girls that are like stalking him in the halls as he's trying to go to class.
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A
Yeah, this was never a problem. When I was a kid in school, nobody wanted to kiss me.
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B
Don't take this the wrong way, but I think honestly at this point he's more focused on Draco than he is on any of the girls that are trying to pay him attention.
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D
Oh heck yeah.
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C
He's certainly getting there.
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A
Yeah, and that's where all the fan fiction stems from.
- [05:40]
D
This memory is everything.
- [05:42]
A
Well, we are going to keep going with that romance theme. In this chapter we learn that Hermione and Filch both have a very specific type. And the stress of teenage crushes is on full display. To kick things off, as invited guests gear up for Slughorn's holiday party. And Harry looking to avoid being love potioned by any of a dozen girls. Girls looking for an invite with the chosen one, he decides on a whim to invite Luna. And then Hermione ends up inviting Cormac McClaggin.
- [06:15]
C
I don't think it was even on Hermione's radar to take Cormac. She doesn't like him. She clearly does not really want to see him succeed at anything, let alone offer her time to him. But because of how much we were discussing this last week, because of how much Ron overreacted and just said, oh, I, I, I suspect you'll be taking Cormac to the party and how awful Ron was to Hermione in the last chapter, she's now gone and done it. She's invited Cormac because what does she have to lose? She's gonna just make sure that Ron feels, I think, the pain of his own, his own horribleness.
- [06:54]
A
I don't blame her for taking Cormac. She has an axe to grind with Ron and she's gonna go through with it.
- [07:01]
B
I agree with you, Andrew. And this is a classic example of you reap what you sow for both Ron and Hermione. By the way, it's not just Ron being frustrated and upset by the fact that Hermione has decided to take Cormac. It's hermione also having to deal with the consequences of inviting Cormac to the party and not wanting to spend any time with him while they're actually. So she doesn't have anybody to blame but herself for how things shake out there.
- [07:33]
D
I agree. She kind of shoots herself in the foot here because she's so hyper focused on wanting to get back at Ron that she actually sets herself up for a really unpleasant evening with a person she doesn't like. I would say this is the book where Hermione really regresses because this is, I would think of everything that Hermione has done, this feels like the most Unhermione ish thing to do. It really sticks out and feels out of character. Not to say that, not to say that it was bad writing that she did it. It just goes to show how deeply emotionally invested she is in prospects potentially with Ron and that having such big feelings kind of throws her off her game and makes her act out of character.
- [08:23]
C
You know, I was going to ask you that then, Laura, since you are also the girl whisperer here. If Ron is, in fact, let's get started. If Ron is, we're going to make this happen. If, if Ron is taken now with Lavender, what are Hermione's options? What, what should she be doing other than what you call regressing and taking Cormac, which I, I agree, by the way. Like, it's not her finest moment.
- [08:48]
D
This is the 37 year old answer, which is to say she should have just gone stag and enjoyed hanging out with her friends. But she's 16 here, so she's not going to do that. Right? She's not going to do the mature thing. But honestly, I think regardless of what she decides to do, she needs to leave Ron alone because her trying to interfere in that dynamic with Lavender is only going to make him double down harder. So it would have an, like, it would have the exact opposite effect of what she wants, I think. So if she was really being mature, she would just say, I'm just gonna hang out with my friends because I have friends who are going to this party and I'm gonna have a good time. But again, she's 16 and who didn't make stupid decisions when they were 16?
- [09:42]
B
I do have a, a bit of a follow up to that though. Is there anybody that Hermione could have asked that wouldn't have ruffled Ron's feathers?
- [09:51]
A
Well, no, probably not, because his problem is they're not him. Hermione didn't ask him. That's the Problem.
- [09:59]
B
I did really like the moment in the movie though where they, they being Harry and Hermione, basically come to the conclusion that they should have gone with each other and it would have solved a lot of their problems. I know that's not a bookism, it's some movie ism, but I thought that's actually a pretty good solution here.
- [10:16]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:18]
A
So let's talk about Hermione and Cormac a little more. So at the party, like we were just saying, Hermione quickly realizes that she made a mistake bringing Cormac. In fact, she says Cormac makes Grop look like a gentleman. And he has one. Lane. It's talking about himself and Quidditch and not asking questions of Hermione. And I loved reading this part as an adult because it's a good life lesson that once you get to know someone, you start to realize they're not as perfect as they may have looked on the dating profile. Or yeah, they might be attractive on the outside, but inside they're pretty ugly. Maybe in different ways, you know, to.
- [10:57]
C
Use a sports term. And Micah let me know if this, if I'm using this correctly, but to use a sports term, I don't know how Cormac fumbles the ball so hard, like so badly here. He does not ask a single question of Hermione. Hermione is interesting. She's got a lot going on. Even if you don't like see a romance lasting long with her. If you're at a party with somebody, ask questions about them and you know what, pretend to be interested. Even if you have to force it, fake it. This, this is like human again 101 here.
- [11:29]
A
It's one of the easiest life hacks.
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C
Yeah, it's, it's the easiest thing. Especially if this is like a date or if you're going to speak, you have to ask questions about them. Nobody's going to be as obsessed with you as you are of yourself. It's not how you socialize, bro.
- [11:47]
B
Good use of Fumble. I just wanted to ask, do we really think that this qualifies as being a first date? Because Slughorn's parties, his get togethers, they seem more performative to me than anything else. And it's all about image as opposed to whether or not these young kids who are taking dates actually have any interest in each other.
- [12:11]
D
I think Cormac thinks it's a date. I think to him it definitely is.
- [12:16]
C
So Hermione gets the full Cormac romance treatment, which is to say absolutely nothing.
- [12:21]
D
Nothing at all, yeah, he's got some work to do. Hopefully he grows up. But, yeah, I mean, Hermione is ultimately using him. And I think in that way we could say that it's a performance on both sides. It kind of works for Cormac, too, because he's extremely performative. He loves being the center of attention and he loves being included in this secret society that makes him feel special amongst his peers. So to feel as though he's also showing up at that secret society with an equally impressive date I think is very much what Cormac had in mind. So I. That's why I think he thought it was a date. But Hermione's totally performing here. Something I thought was interesting is earlier in the chapter when talking to Parvati in the Great Hall, Parvati asks her point blank, are you and Cormac going out now? And Hermione's like, yeah, we are. And to me, going out implies that you are boyfriend and girlfriend. So Hermione's. She's playing the long game on this, and I don't think she knows what she's in for, like, what this night is going to involve.
- [13:42]
B
Are we to assume that Cormac is attractive, though? Because I know in the movies he's played by Freddie Stroma, who was an underwear model. So they went all out in that casting. But in the context of the book, I don't know that we. We get that. We're told that he's kind of this physically imposing character, but I'm not sure. I mean, the girls seem to like him, but I think they. They take it up to a whole other level with kind of all the innuendo that we see in the film.
- [14:15]
A
Yeah, I think maybe for Hermione, I presume he is somewhat attractive or at least handsome. And she's really into Quidditch players. I mean, this is brought up in the book. Parvati says, wow, you like your Quidditch players, don't you? First crumb, then McLaggin, and then Hermione drops a really sick burn on Ron. She says, I like really good Quidditch players.
- [14:41]
C
The boy who. The guy who is almost Gryffindor keeper. I love her laying on that. That thick.
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D
Even Hermione doesn't know anything about Quidditch. This has already been established before. So she does not care about Quidditch.
- [14:55]
C
Yeah, well, absent any descriptors that paint Cormac's face or features in a negative light, I think it's reasonably certain that he's attractive. I mean, he's a teenage boy, he's athletic. He, you know, there's really only one shade of that. And it results in being attractive to a certain extent.
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A
And as to whether or not it's.
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C
Yeah.
- [15:22]
A
And he has an ego that makes him believe he only has to talk about himself. Which also implies he's always gotten away on his good looks and not so much his personality.
- [15:34]
C
No, that's a good point. The argument for Slug Club being viewed as like, a date is that this is the Christmas party. Remember, even last year's DA meeting, meeting that was Christmas themed had like this weight to it and this like, extra formality. Like the mistletoe was in the room of requirement too. And it was kind of like Harry was like thinking about show the whole time. So I would argue especially because they're not usually allowed to bring dates. And that's what facilitated Hermione, like, even getting an invite or being able to invite somebody. Usually you would have had to have been in the Slug Club. You would have had to have directly impressed Slughorn before. But the date aspect of it, it's like extra permission for this exclusive club. So I think it is actually worthy of being considered more important or more like romantic or a date. Because not everybody gets this invite.
- [16:29]
A
I mean, you feel really flattered when somebody's inviting you to an exclusive event. That means a lot.
- [16:34]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:34]
B
Look how Luna responded.
- [16:36]
A
Yeah, she was over the moon. So we've talked about love potions before. We don't have to spend too much time on this. But I do want to mention that this chapter starts off with quite a few girls wanting to love potion Harry so that he invites them to Slughorn's party. And when talking about the love potions the girls want to sneak to Harry, Hermione says that Filch's dark detectors won't notice them because love potions aren't dark and dangerous. That's interesting reading. Now, as younger readers, we probably would have agreed with that. On a surface level, Harry actually does voice his concern. Here he says, I'm not so sure those aren't dangerous. And now as adults, we'd probably disagree with Hermione. Okay, maybe Filch's dark detectors won't pick it up, but she should still acknowledge that they are dangerous. And love potions should just be banned from Hogwarts. Totally. I'm surprised that type of thing is even permitted at the school. The adults should have thought to do that by now.
- [17:40]
C
Definitely. And something that really has come to mind. The last 20 years we've been doing this is like an evolution on the understanding of what a love potion, what weight it really carries. So I mean if we talked about what Merope does to Tom Riddle Sr. And all the ways in which it's possible through love potion or other such magic to take away somebody's agency and manufacture consent, these are all really important things that were not on our minds as kids. But yeah, I. Love potions should totally be banned from all of Hogwarts at a minimum and probably the whole wizarding world.
- [18:18]
B
And Harry's now aware, right, of what Merope did to Tom Riddle Sr. So he's speaking from a position of, well, let's not say experience, but he has a little bit more to go on here when he's talking with Hermione, especially knowing that he himself now is the target of what these girls are trying to do. But I, I did want to bring up like, I think this is a pretty astute observation that Harry makes because it's, it's the precursor to the poison mead getting through security later on in the book. And Hermione, maybe because she's a prefect, she gets kind of additional insight into the security measures at Hogwarts. But when she's having this conversation with Harry, it just made me think who are you to talk about the security protocols of the school and say that, oh, they're just love potions?
- [19:13]
C
Well, as the person who is the only person in this whole school who's read all of Hogwarts history, I feel that Hermione is uniquely qualified to talk about these security protocols in place. Just suggesting.
- [19:25]
D
Yeah, you know, I agree with this. I found it a little odd that Hermione didn't think about, you know, the many ways that harmless contraband could be used to disguise smuggling other things into the school. I mean, she's the one who got the idea for the DA Galleons to communicate in the fifth book. She got that idea from the Darkmark and how the Death Eaters communicate. We're gonna see in this book how Draco drew inspiration to use the Room of Requirement from Dumbledore's army.
- [20:00]
B
The.
- [20:01]
D
So even if something on its face isn't quote, unquote bad, if somebody wanted to use it for nefarious purposes, they could. So I was a little surprised to see she like, see her not connecting the dots there.
- [20:16]
C
Yeah, and it's unclear exactly how strong Fred and George's love potions are which are like basically the ones that these kids would have access to the girls that are trying to corner Harry, um, like maybe they wouldn't make you do all the worst things you could do if you're attracted to somebody, I guess. Or the most egregious. Maybe they just make you want to kiss somebody, which, okay, still problematic. But like, maybe they wear off quick. Maybe there's some. So when Hermione is dismissing it as, you know, not a big deal, she might be thinking of these lesser sort of for general consumers probably.
- [20:56]
A
And Brock is bringing up. I don't think they were originally intended to be as sinister as we interpret them now. And that's fair. That's very possible.
- [21:04]
B
I agree they're not intended to be sinister. But if something like that becomes a gateway for other things kind of coming in beneath the surface, then that's problematic.
- [21:15]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:16]
C
And the Heavy Duty love potions are in this book. They're all over it. Slughorn's first lesson had amortentia that he himself brewed. And that's, that's the, that's the, that's the merope, that's the Voldemort making stuff. Because if you recall that the author at one point said the reason Voldemort is not able to understand love and essentially is Voldemort is because of being conceived under a love potion.
- [21:39]
B
And, and is. Doesn't Ron end up ingesting some of this love potion and that's the whole reason why they go to Slughorn and he ends up drinking the mead that's poisoned, so.
- [21:50]
C
Right. And as far as that goes, at.
- [21:52]
B
Least that was the movie. I don't remember the book.
- [21:54]
C
Well, I, I think the issue too is the, the love potion that Ron, the cauldron cakes, that was it Romilda gives to Harry. They kind of expired or they're past date and that actually makes them more dangerous. So I still suggest that these are like more garden variety love potions, but again, they're in the school and they really shouldn't be.
- [22:17]
A
All right, well, we are going to talk about some foreshadowing and Filch and Madame Pins together in a tree. But first we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. So, foreshadow alert. Snape is at this party too. And when Slughorn spots him, he comments on Harry's potion skills and gives Snape credit for Harry's talents. And then Snape says, funny, I've never had the impression that I managed to teach Potter anything at all. So this is super interesting, knowing what we know once you get to the end of the book. Should this have been a red Flag to Snape.
- [23:04]
C
Definitely crazy that Slughorn should have pulled Snape out of a crowd. When you're reading this and you're reading it happening, you're like, oh, my God, he's gonna give up the whole game. Especially if you know, again, how the book ends and who the Half Blood Prince is. But Snape kind of treats it. He very, like, just downplays it. Which leads me to question whether he does know or should know or when he finds out exactly about Harry. Because even if Snape did know at this moment, his response could possibly be the same because he's got so much else going on right now, especially with having to, like, contend with Draco in this chapter, that to spend a minute on Harry, like, where he has some kind of a reaction to his Potions prowess, newfound Potions prowess, would be one minute too, like, spent too hard on that. It's the same reason Draco doesn't touch Quidditch this year is because Draco, who has time for that? And so I feel like maybe Snape knows, but he's still, or is, like, starting to figure it out, but is still just going to contend to be sassy.
- [24:14]
A
I was trying to see if there were any other hints prior to this moment. It doesn't seem like Snape's been on his trail. So I'm inclined to think he doesn't know yet. But this should get the wheels turning. What do you think, Laura?
- [24:25]
D
I think this gets him suspicious. And I think we're gonna start. If I recall correctly, I think we're gonna start seeing little breadcrumbs coming up in future chapters. Because Snape is definitely. His attention has been drawn here. But I agree, Eric. I think in this moment, he has a more important objective, and that is Draco. So he's filing this away. But don't get it twisted. I mean, Snape definitely stared into Harry's eyes in that moment. So it's very clear to me.
- [25:00]
B
Violation.
- [25:02]
D
Say what?
- [25:03]
B
It's such a violation that he does that to kids. But we've talked about that before.
- [25:08]
A
Trying to read his mind. Yeah, yeah.
- [25:10]
B
Trying to read his mind. But I did want to say, I definitely want this scene maxed, where Slughorn grabs Snape and puts him under one arm and grabs Harry and puts him under another, like they're in one big bro hug together. Because I think I just want to see Snape's facial reaction. Because I can only imagine what Alan Rickman's would have been if they did film this scene.
- [25:32]
C
Yeah.
- [25:33]
A
So we'll return to Snape and Draco in a minute. But I did want to mention Filch and Madame Pence. Is something going on here? I wanted to talk about this, especially because we have Valentine's Day coming up in the Muggle world. So, while Harry and Hermione are in the library, Pince yells at Harry for all the notes he allegedly put in his potions book. And as an aside, I don't see what the big deal is about writing in a book that's, like, extremely common, at least in the Muggle world.
- [26:03]
B
Especially if you paid for it.
- [26:05]
A
Yeah, and you're a student. You gotta jot some notes down.
- [26:08]
B
Back off, Irma.
- [26:10]
A
Yeah, even if he didn't pay for that book. But once she leaves, Harry says, it's not my fault. Madame Pince is barking mad. Hermione. Or do you think she overheard you being rude about Filch? I've always thought there might be something between them. And building on this, Pince and Filch are standing next to one another before Dumbledore. Dumbledore's funeral. Later in the book, quotes, when they reached the entrance hall, they found Madame Pince standing beside Filch. She in a thick black veil that fell to her knees. He in an ancient black suit and tie reeking of mothballs. Are there sparks between these two? Dish. I mean, somebody.
- [26:47]
D
I just felt. This all felt so random, like it never comes up before or again. Apart from that one moment at Dumbledore's funeral. I don't think there's ever any other support in the books for this, which makes me wonder if it was a little bit of a. A little bit of, like, an establishing point for the story. Just to say, like, yeah, this is a chapter where there's a lot of pairing off and a lot of romantic drama. So just do this. Because Harry never has this thought before, this moment where he's like. I've always kind of thought there was something between them. Not from what we've seen, no.
- [27:28]
C
We've read all of these, all of these, every year. There hasn't been a moment where it's been apparent.
- [27:34]
B
But the way it was written certainly suggested, like, even before Harry said something, the way that Pence reacted would lead you to believe that perhaps she didn't like the way they were talking about Filch.
- [27:48]
A
Yeah, I do think maybe the author was pulling on this thread a little bit. Maybe was a little indecisive about whether or not she would explore this further, maybe in book seven, and ultimately decided to scrap it. But it just seems like this had to Be there for a reason. Not just this, but then them standing next to each other at the end of the book. It ties into the overall romance theme of Half Blood Prince. And then maybe she's debating going somewhere else and just didn't. Yeah.
- [28:15]
B
If you don't to say is party in the restricted section. It's not called the restricted section for nothing.
- [28:22]
C
I do think that now I don't know what's. I don't know how Mrs. Norris feels about Madam Pince. You know, being around in film.
- [28:32]
A
Maybe that's it.
- [28:33]
C
Affections maybe. Yeah. They're cat got between them. But I think there is something about a strict disciplinarian or like the strictest librarian you've ever had in your life. And Filch, right? I think both, probably both characters would probably support corporal punishment. Both take their jobs way seriously. Not always a bad thing. So you can kind of see personality wise how it would align.
- [29:00]
A
Absolutely. And Filch is a squib. He deserves some love in the wizarding school. He deserves some magic in this school. Why not Dating Banham Pince, I think that'd be lovely.
- [29:11]
C
Well, if Madam Pince didn't like what Harry did to his advanced potion making, she better not check out his copy of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find them because he and Ron wrote all over these books. If you guys are looking at this, you remember these original Comic Relief books.
- [29:25]
D
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:26]
C
They had all the writing in the margins and stuff. Just absolutely insane.
- [29:31]
A
So the other big focus of this chapter is Snape and Draco's conversation outside of Slughorn's party. Snape pulls Draco away from the party to talk about the mystery plan. And Harry notes that Draco looks like he's been losing sleep. This is just a sign that, you know, Draco's going through a really tough time right now.
- [29:56]
C
Yeah. And I definitely think that Harry is uniquely attuned a little bit to Draco's. I don't know, wariness. I think that. I think that Harry is being given a. Or has a sixth sense here when it comes to Draco.
- [30:11]
A
And Snape attempts to read Draco's mind to figure out the truth about what he's up to. And if he was responsible for Katie Bell, Draco isn't taking any responsibility for that. And earlier it was said, and one of you mentioned this too, that Snape was boring into Harry's eyes when Slughorn brought up Harry's potion skills. So you might be able to argue that the latter was not Occlumency. But let's Pretend that it. Let's pretend it was. Plus Snape trying to read Draco's mind as well. This got me thinking. Is Snape too reliant on trying to read people's minds? Rather than just being a better human and getting to know somebody, try to figure out how to ask them questions and get the answers you're looking for instead of penetrating your mind.
- [30:58]
B
Yeah, I'm actually a little bit surprised too that Draco doesn't come clean with Snape about Katie Bell. Yeah, you'd think that he would be a little bit more open with him. I understand that Snape is his head of house, so maybe he fears getting into trouble or Snape going to Dumbledore. But as we later learned, Snape is basically married at the hip to Draco at this point. So Draco should feel more than free to share information. But going back to your question about kind of the mind penetration, it. It is this cheat code as you call it, but it's also a violation. You're talking about 16, 17 year old kids and even younger last year with the lessons he was supposed to be giving Harry. And what I found really interesting is if you have the right teacher, things can go the right way. Because Draco has been learning this from Bellatrix and he's actually decent at it because he doesn't let Snape in. At least that's what we're led to believe.
- [32:06]
C
Right.
- [32:06]
B
So my question, is Bellatrix a better teacher than Snape?
- [32:11]
D
I don't know. I. I tend to think maybe he backed down when Draco blocked him and he didn't try to penetrate his mind as much. I think I see this as kind of Snape choosing to lose the battle to win the war.
- [32:27]
C
Right.
- [32:27]
D
With Draco.
- [32:29]
A
I think that's why is Draco so resistant for help from Snape. He won't even tell Snape what his plan is, despite, you know, the Unbreakable Vow. He's. He's being such a. Is he just being a child? Snape does also acknowledge that he knows that Draco's really frustrated with his dad's imprisonment. And that's when Draco actually storms away. So that might suggest that really that's what's eating at Draco. But that's not Snape's fault.
- [32:55]
D
Yeah, he also accuses Snape of wanting to steal his glory.
- [32:59]
C
Right? Yeah.
- [33:00]
A
Does Draco want this glory? I mean.
- [33:05]
C
But also he wants to come to the understanding that he doesn't want the glory. Like he's still so just heavily in it at this moment that I think, like, he does want to make his own decisions. Even if it can be pointed out to Draco how foolish it is to go it alone, as Snape is trying to do right now. Draco won't hear it because he has to be his own man and try and prove something to himself like, oh, I can be a loyal Death Eater just like my dad was, you know, and all this stuff. He's just gotta go through this whole thing and find out for himself that he doesn't got it. Yeah.
- [33:39]
A
Do you think Snape is freaking out too, Micah?
- [33:41]
B
A little bit. And that goes back to the point that I raised earlier of him being married at the hip with Draco. You know, his life literally is dependent upon Draco's success because if Draco fails, he then has to step in and kill Dumbledore. Elsewise, he's going to lose his life. Now with Draco, though, Voldemort's given him this impossible task and it's really to punish Lucius more than anything else. And so I think that that makes this all very personal for Draco. And so that could in part be why he's reacting to Snape in this way. Because it's about the Malfoy family. This doesn't have anything to do with anybody outside of them. That said, Draco is a teenager. He's scared out of his mind. He's isolated and he's cracking under pressure. And I think to him, trusting Snape would mean admitting a certain level of weakness. And we know from Draco's upbringing that, you know, weakness has always been seen as dangerous or, or less than. Right. Like, at least from how we've seen his father treat him.
- [34:58]
C
Yeah. The craziest thing about this is Draco doesn't need to admit that he's spinning out and needing help, because it's very apparent from the attempts that are happening, both the ones that did happen and the ones that are going to continue happening and failing. It couldn't be clearer to somebody like SN that, like, Draco can't handle this. But Draco is unaware of that. You know, he's going to keep trying. And it doesn't take Draco admitting for Snape to go, oh, my God, I'm going to die if I don't actually figure out how to massage this into, like, a place where it succeeds.
- [35:31]
A
It's typical child stubbornness, I think. But what Draco's really missing here is that this is way, way, way more serious than your typical no, mom, I won't clean My bedroom type of thing.
- [35:42]
C
It's shocking to see them at odds though, the two of them, because I just think about all the potions classes where Snape was absolutely horrible to Harry pretty much just for Draco's amusement.
- [35:54]
B
To build on what you said though, Andrew, it's about to get real for Draco. He can't just operate from the shadows anymore. His actions are going to have legitimate consequences and he's going to need to be ready to deal with what comes at him.
- [36:11]
A
And during this heated exchange, Draco is asking Snape why he, Crab and Goyle need to be taking Dada classes so seriously. And Snape replies that they're learning it is an act that is crucial to success. And I love that Snape said this because this should be a hint to Draco that Snape could be loyal to Dumbledore after all. I call this a foreshadow alert that Snape is acting. He's been acting this whole series, but not in the way we or Draco think. Do we think Jericho has any suspicions at all that Snape has some real loyalty to Dumbledore? I mean he's got bigger fish to fry, so probably not.
- [36:52]
C
Yeah, I think that he, because of all the stuff that like Snape has done at Harry's expense and how tight Harry and Dumbledore are, I don't think Draco thinks that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore just because then why was he so mad mean to Harry all these times? So maybe that's some level of protection for Snape. But it doesn't get Draco anymore into confiding into Snape. He just sees him as an opponent.
- [37:15]
B
I think it's about preparation though too, regardless of what side of the fight you're on. I think like there's this like tendency for us to think that because it's defense against the Dark Arts. It's something that only the Aurors or only Dumbledore's army needs to learn. But that's not true because it's not just the Death Eaters that will use the Dark Arts. Maybe there's a more better likelihood that they will, but I'm sure that there are those on the good side. You know, you have to be able to defend yourself regardless.
- [37:48]
A
Exactly.
- [37:49]
B
You need to defensive part of that. Yeah, that's the point I think he's getting at.
- [37:53]
A
Yeah, true.
- [37:55]
D
I think another part of it is we know that Draco is very academically gifted up until this point. He's really starting to suffer. We hear that he gets Detention because he hasn't been doing his transfiguration homework. He's dropped out of Quidditch, he's not focusing on Defense against the Dark Arts. So clearly his grades are starting to suffer. So I think also part of the act Snape may be talking about is saying, hey, you're kind of blowing your cover and showing that something is off because you're not performing to your usual standards and you don't want to do anything that's going to make you stick out or be suspicious.
- [38:37]
A
All right, well, I did want to ask a what if. What if Snape or Draco did say out loud while Harry was listening that Dumbledore must be killed? Harry, of course, ultimately does not learn about the plan until the lightning struck tower. So who would Harry go to first?
- [39:02]
C
I think he could. He goes straight to Dumbledore.
- [39:04]
B
Yeah, I agree. But let's take Dumbledore off the table for a minute here. I would think somebody in the order. If we go back to earlier in this book, Arthur Weasley seems like a very good ally here because he followed up on Harry's tip on Borgin and Burke and going back to Malfoy Manor to search it a second time. Remus, I guess, could be a good second. I don't know where his head is at right now. Moody seems like the most chaotic just because he's so neurotic. So I think he would take Harry seriously. So I. I feel like any one of them are pretty good options.
- [39:45]
A
So I am not convinced that Harry would go to Dumbledore. And it's because of the quote that you put in here, Laura, about how he handled his suspicions about Draco. What did he say a few chapters ago?
- [39:57]
D
Well, so this is actually somewhat of an invented quote based on what he said a few chapters ago. Intended to be like an extra layer of spicy, where he would say, I'm sure you'll remember I am aware of your suspicions about Draco Malfoy. For now, I'm most concerned with our lesson. And to be honest with you, I really feel like Harry would go to Ron and Hermione first. Yeah, I think proximity. But would they believe him? It would end there. Yeah, but it would. This would end that argument. If he came to them and was like, yo, Draco was literally talking about killing Dumbledore to Snape.
- [40:39]
C
Here's the thing.
- [40:40]
D
I think they'd put it aside.
- [40:42]
C
Yeah, maybe, maybe. I think the problem is Harry needs to go to somebody. Like Dumbledore's in the castle. So he needs somebody in the castle. McGonagall's really the, the person who. She's his head of house. She's in the order. She's in the castle. You know, honestly, if even if Harry goes to Dumbledore first and Dumbledore dismisses him with that line, which is like perfect, perfectly recreated, he would still go to McGonagall because McGonagall then would apply more pressure on Dumbledore to like have an answer for Harry or give. Because then it would be news and very concerning for McGonagall. McGonagall doesn want to see Dumbledore die and she's not in the loop so far as we know ever about Dumbledore's plan to die at the end of this year.
- [41:31]
B
I just see this all as Harry being treated as if he's over sensationalizing what he hears. And oh, trust Professor Snape. Trust that he'll take care of the situation accordingly. Or maybe that's what Dumbledore says to Harry. Harry, my boy, Snape has already spoken to me about this, you know. Not now, Harry. Not now.
- [41:54]
A
All right, we're gonna take one more break and then we're gonna have some more Valentine's Day fun. We'll be right back. So we're at the end of the chapter, but couple of odds and ends. First of all, here's another number 12 listeners. Do you like this? Tell me if you like this or am I wasting everybody's time with these? Hagrid delivered the usual 12 Christmas trees to the Great Hall. It's noted at the start of the chapter another odd and ends. Luna says vampires are coming to Slughorn's party. And she specifically says Rufus Scrimjar, which he's not a vampire. But there is another present, Sanguini. And it does remind us that vampires are canon in the wizarding world. I think we hear about them very early on in the series and then not too much until this mention. And in an upcoming episode of Mugglecast that focuses on the forthcoming TV show, I want to look at the topic of vampires and if they should be maxed.
- [42:56]
C
Only if they sparkle.
- [42:57]
A
Only if they sparkle. Okay, the Twilight versions. Okay, now it's time for MVP of the week category is best character to take to a Hogwarts holiday party and why I'm going to give it to Cormac McClaggin because it's just in my head canon. That's that he's pretty attractive and he can talk Quidditch to me all day, baby.
- [43:21]
C
Oh my God, I'm gonna Give it to my head of house, Helga Hufflepuff. The original. She'll know just what to bring to a party.
- [43:29]
B
I went with George Weasley. I feel like going with one of the Weasley twins. You're guaranteed to have fun. You're gonna laugh. They'll make it interesting.
- [43:38]
D
And I said Hagrid, because he just seems like he'd be really fun to part.
- [43:44]
A
He would be.
- [43:45]
D
Yeah.
- [43:46]
C
He parties good.
- [43:47]
A
Is he a whiskey drinker? What does he drink normally?
- [43:49]
C
No.
- [43:50]
B
Mead.
- [43:51]
A
Mead.
- [43:51]
D
Yeah, I feel like he's normally. But you know what? He's talked about fire whiskey before.
- [43:57]
A
I think he'll get drunk later. I know you're a whiskey girly, so I am. I'm sure he'd share a whiskey with you. All right, time for our links line. And we asked our Slug Club patrons over at patreon.com mugglecast Snape and Trelawney. They both are seemingly single at Slughorn's holiday party, which I think is very sad. So with Valentine's Day approaching again here in the Muggle world, I wanted to know who should they have invited as their dates? And for bonus points to your Hogwarts House, what would be their pickup line to the Witcher wizard that they invite? So we'll start with Rachel. She said Snape would be unable to bring a date. He still hung up on Lily, and he'd bring a bouquet of lilies. I'm always kind of surprised when he shows up to parties or events. Professor Trelawney should invite Tom, the bartender from Diagon Alley. I don't really have a great explanation for this, but it popped into my head and I'm sticking with it. She needs someone who can supply her with sherry. Yeah.
- [44:59]
C
Matthew said Snape would ask out Madame Rosmerta because he's only into people that he has no chance with. His line, I can stop her death, but I could never stop her dad. Ass.
- [45:14]
D
He is not the smooth.
- [45:16]
C
Yeah, it's pretty smooth. Honestly, that was a compliment to Eric.
- [45:20]
A
I think. Laura, just.
- [45:21]
C
Thank you.
- [45:22]
A
Wow, Eric, you are so smooth with those big up lines.
- [45:25]
C
Appreciate that. And Trelawney would ask out Dumbledore because she's that oblivious. Her line quote, in my vision, the mists are entwined and so are we.
- [45:39]
B
40 said snape should have brought Lockhart in love. Actually, Alan Rickman's character cheats on Emma Thompson's character. In real life, Lockhart's actor cheated on Trelawney's. Maybe they deserve each other as some brand of interdimensional. Shaming.
- [45:58]
A
Wow.
- [45:59]
C
It's next level. I appreciate that. 40.
- [46:02]
B
Trelawney should have brought Neville's Uncle Algae. The one who dropped Neville from the window, because I think they'd vibe.
- [46:11]
C
I agree.
- [46:12]
D
Yep. Zachary says Snape's guest would be the ghost of Lily Potter. His pickup line would be. I know you're dying to see Slughorn again, so why don't you come to his Christmas party with me? Trelawney's guest would be Madame Puddyfoot. Her pickup line would be, I have read the leaves and they said, you accompany me to the party.
- [46:34]
A
Oh, yeah, that. That pickup line is basically baked in for her with every person she's inviting out.
- [46:41]
B
That's a really good one.
- [46:42]
D
I mean, for both Trelawney and Madame Puttyfoot. It applies for both of them.
- [46:47]
A
Yeah, yeah, true. Catherine said Professor Trelawney and Professor Sinistra. I don't think we ever get confirmation of their orientations, so I'm shipping them. Two women gazing at the heavens from entirely different interpretive frameworks. One studies stars and the other feels them. I can see them bonding over cozy cosmic vibes with a glass of wine. Pickup line could be the planets whisper of a powerful convergence tonight, and I fear it may involve you, Sinistra.
- [47:19]
C
I love this. For some reason, I'm hearing Indigo Girls play in the background.
- [47:23]
D
That's amazing.
- [47:25]
C
So. And finally, Jared says, Professor Trelawney, nearly Headless Nick before your near beheading, she says, I would have predicted a single beautiful clean cut.
- [47:38]
A
Oh, that's awesome. She could have been his hero.
- [47:41]
C
And Snape is going with Albus Dumbledore. The pickup line suggested is, no woman can replace Lily, but I haven't tried Men. I bet you're dying to be my date.
- [47:56]
A
That is so funny. Okay, Draco's like, don't tell him the plan. Oh, my God. All right, thanks to our Slug Club patrons for participating in that. If you have feedback about today's discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to mugglecastmail.com you can also leave a comment on the Patreon post, if you're a patron on Spotify, on the YouTube comment section, or DMS on social media. And next week, we continue our Half Blood Prince discussion with Chapter 16, A Very Frosty Christmas. Visit mugglecast.com for links to our social media Patreon transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And now it's time for Quizzage.
- [48:45]
C
This week's Quizzage question was in chapter 14 of book 6, Ron receives the benefits of what is known as the placebo effect when Harry fakes giving him Velix felicis. What is the similar term used when a sugar pill or some such placebo creates a negative or undesired result instead of a positive one? Wouldn't you know that the correct answer is nocebo. Nocebo effect. Only 30% of people with the correct answer said that they did not look it up. And correct answers were submitted by Ashley B. Cara. Cheese Shark. Da don't Ron. Ron. Ron. Da. Don't Ron. Ron Gilderoy. Pop Tart. Oh, my God. Love Potion Number nine. No. Kirsto. Nosy Bow. Of course Dumbledore is gay. They don't for nothing.
- [49:37]
A
Oh, my God. I don't know.
- [49:38]
C
Dewey Brewing Pettigrewy makes food. Yeah.
- [49:41]
B
You know, I'm surprised we haven't gotten that one before.
- [49:43]
D
I feel like, oh, you're probably gonna have to edit that out, but that was funny.
- [49:47]
C
Yeah, we just do this for us. Really. At the end of the day, it's playful Stewie Brew. Pettigrewi makes Fooey the pharmacist. And Tofu Tom wants to co host Mugglecast. Oh, God, Tofu Tom. Like, seriously? You're in line. You're already in line. Just stay in line. It's gonna happen. So congratulations to all the winners, and here is next week's Quizzage question. In chapter 15 of book 6, we hear from Luna about the Rot fang conspiracy wherein there's a plot involving gum disease. What is the name of somebody who studies and is an expert in gum disease? What do they call that specialist who may work on you? Submit your answer to us on the Mugglecast website, mugglecast.comquizzitch or click on the form that's found when you click on Quizzage from the main navigation. Have. Thanks for playing, everybody.
- [50:45]
A
Thank you also for listening to this week's episode. I'm Andrew.
- [50:48]
C
I'm Eric.
- [50:49]
B
I'm Micah.
- [50:50]
D
And I'm Laura.
- [50:51]
A
Bye, everyone.
- [50:53]
D
Bye, y'.
- [50:53]
A
All.
- [51:09]
B
Sam.