Snape's House of Deceit (HBP Chapter 2, Spinner's End)

Summary

MuggleCast: "Snape's House of Deceit" – HBP Chapter 2, Spinner’s End (October 14, 2025)

Episode Overview

This episode of MuggleCast, the Harry Potter Re-Read Podcast, dives deep into Chapter 2 of "Half-Blood Prince": Spinner’s End. The hosts—Andrew, Eric, Micah, and Laura—are joined by special guest Irvin (MuggleNet contributor and author of a new book on the Malfoys) for an insightful and entertaining chapter-by-chapter discussion. Central topics include the symbolism and significance of Spinner’s End, the web of lies amongst Death Eaters, the dynamic between Narcissa and Bellatrix, and the critical Unbreakable Vow scene. Along the way, the panel reflects on Snape’s motivations, Bellatrix’s psychology, and how these moments lay crucial groundwork for later in the series.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Spinner’s End as Home and Symbol

• Spinner’s End’s Lore and Symbolism

  • Snape’s childhood home, also close to Lily and Petunia’s, is setting-laden with trauma and nostalgia. The area is decrepit, mirroring Snape’s tormented psyche.
  • Eric: “There’s a lot of symbolism, too, thinking about spiders spinning a web of deceit.” (15:19)
  • Irvin: “This whole chapter is just people spinning tales and lies about each other… Rowling is spinning, still trying to maintain ambiguity about Snape's allegiance.” (15:34)

• Snape’s State of Mind

  • Discussion covers Snape’s unwillingness (or inability) to leave or refurbish this oppressive environment, suggesting emotional baggage and perhaps self-flagellation.
  • Laura draws parallels to Harry’s obligatory returns to Privet Drive. (17:39)
  • “He feels kind of…imprisoned.” – Eric (16:52)
  • Micah: “He clearly hasn’t gotten over his childhood… His father was extremely abusive.” (16:27)

• Home as a Narrative Device

  • The detailed, dreary description of the house helps obscure Snape’s role as the “Half-Blood Prince”—a “prince wouldn’t live here.” (18:14, Andrew)
  • Irvin brings in fandom lore: presence of books in a character’s home often signals alignment with “good.” (18:59)

---

2. The Black Sisters: Bellatrix, Narcissa, and the Power of Family

• Complex Sisterly Dynamics

  • Bellatrix’s fierce, almost protective affection for Narcissa is highlighted as one of her few redeeming human qualities.
  • Irvin: “I think Narcissa is probably the only person in the world whom Bellatrix actually loves, aside from Voldemort.” (23:42)
  • Laura: “Maybe there’s a thread to pull around motherhood…” suggesting Narcissa’s love for her son trumps all—tying into a major theme of the series. (25:19)
  • Absence of Andromeda (Tonks’ mom) possibly brings the remaining sisters closer.

• Motivation & Loyalty

  • Discussion on whether Bellatrix would prefer to be right or wrong about Snape’s loyalty—ultimately, most agree she’s more interested in regaining favor with Voldemort than the absolute truth. (28:47)
  • Bellatrix as archetypal anti-mother, counterpoint to Narcissa’s maternal devotion.

---

3. Death Eater Politics: Trust and Paranoia

• Death Eaters Without Voldemort

  • Rare peek into how Death Eaters behave when the Dark Lord isn’t present—status games, suspicion, and desperation for favor.
  • Irvin: “It’s such a genius move on Voldemort’s part…He takes the two Death Eaters that he doesn’t trust in the slightest, makes them live together.” (31:15)
  • Wormtail as housemate: played for comic effect, but also emphasizes mutual surveillance and distrust.

• Bellatrix’s Insecurity

  • She is terrified of being wrong in her suspicions and falling further from favor, especially after her failure at the Ministry. (32:43)
  • Narcissa’s actions depict the fallout for families as Voldemort turns his punitive gaze on once-favored followers.

• The Fox’s (Literal) Fate

  • A fox is killed by Bellatrix, symbolizing the innocent victims of the escalating war—potential parallel for Draco’s predicament. (21:10)
  • Andrew: “Maybe an innocent victim. Draco is an innocent victim of all this, I think.” (22:13)

---

4. The Great Snape Debate: Allegiance, Performance, and Agency

• Snape's Double Agent Game

  • Bellatrix’s list of suspicions and Snape’s calm rebuttals are dissected, showing his masterful performance for each audience.
  • “He’s been lying straight up to Voldemort for years—to his face.” – Micah (48:17)
  • Quoted: “You don’t think the Dark Lord has asked the very same questions?” – Snape (47:01, paraphrased by Micah)

• Narcissa’s Motivation and the Trap of the Vow

  • Irvin gives a detailed breakdown of the Unbreakable Vow exchange, emphasizing how Narcissa cornered Snape into the fatal third promise (“will you kill Dumbledore if Draco fails?”).
  • “Narcissa 100% trapped him there at the end…With his twitching hand, he says yes.” – Irvin (58:45)
  • Snape’s visible discomfort (“Snape’s hand twitching…locks in your theory”) reinforces this was not a calculated move on his part. (61:05)

• Discussion: Did Snape Know the Plan?

  • Micah floats the popular pre-DH theory that Snape “figured out” the plan via Legilimency, but Irvin explains Deathly Hallows confirms Dumbledore told him beforehand. (38:00–38:56)

• MVP Chess Masters: Dumbledore vs. Snape

  • The hosts debate who is the true “chess master.” Most give the edge to Snape for his frontline improvisation, though Dumbledore gets respect for his overarching strategy.
  • Andrew: “Snape is out there on the front lines…playing the part.” (65:10)
  • Irvin: “Dumbledore didn’t get trapped into promising something or his life is forfeit.” (66:31)

---

5. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Snark and Wit

• “It’s like one of those awkward scripted comedy shows. Like what’ll happen when Snape and Wormtail live together? Find out. Tuesdays at 8!” – Andrew (12:20)
• “Come on, you wouldn’t [hurt] your own sister.” – Irvin, paraphrasing Bellatrix (23:42)
• “He treats Pettigrew the way the Dursleys treat Harry…” – Irvin (43:48)

On the Spinner’s End Chapter

• “This whole chapter is just people spinning tales and lies about each other.” – Irvin (15:34)
• “It’s the only time we see the Death Eaters spend time together without Voldemort there…The first thing they do is drink to the Dark Lord. Like, that’s insane.” – Irvin (32:21)
• “His contempt for Bellatrix… proves that to me that he’s not, you know, buddy, buddy.” – Eric (49:03)

On Narcissa and the Unbreakable Vow

• “She just pulls one out of the hat and is like, also, will you kill him if Draco won’t…She got him.” – Irvin (58:45)
• “Snape did not want to make that third vow.” – Irvin (58:45)

---

Key Timestamps

• 05:30–08:13: Speculation on Dumbledore’s scenes in the new TV show, expansion of canon moments (the Flamel/Dumbledore beach scene, Sorcerer’s Stone relocation).
• 11:30: Chapter discussion begins – Spinner’s End, background on the setting.
• 15:12–16:52: Symbolism of the setting and Snape’s mental state.
• 21:01–22:13: Fox symbolism and its connection to Draco.
• 23:42–25:51: The Black sisters’ relationship and contrasting values.
• 31:15–32:21: Commentary on the Snape/Wormtail cohabitation—Voldemort’s surveillance tactics.
• 35:02–37:02: Narcissa’s motivations, the Malfoy family in peril, and Snape’s double role.
• 47:01–48:46: Snape’s responses to Bellatrix’s grilling and major one-liners.
• 58:45–61:05: Unpacking the Unbreakable Vow’s construction and Snape’s trap.
• 65:10–66:45: Chess master debate—Snape vs. Dumbledore.

---

Memorable Segment: The Snape Allegiance Debate

• The onset of the “Great Snape Debate,” including stories of Borders display tables, fan theories, and the hosts’ own shifting beliefs when the books originally released.
  • “I think I was probably in the camp of thinking that he was playing a role. But then I probably got scared when he made the Unbreakable Vow…” – Micah (51:24)
  • “Of course that’s relative because I don’t think Snape is good or evil. I think he’s lots of shades of gray.” – Laura (52:37)

---

Final Thoughts

Summary: This episode artfully balances literary analysis, humor, and deep fandom lore—making “Snape’s House of Deceit” a must-listen for fans interested in character psychology and series craft. Irvin’s expert analysis, especially regarding the Malfoys, enriches the conversation, while panelist banter keeps things lively. The episode illuminates how Spinner’s End is foundational for understanding Snape, Death Eater politics, and the key themes of love, loyalty, and moral ambiguity that undergird "Half-Blood Prince" and the saga as a whole.

Quote of the Episode:
Irvin (on Spinner's End): "Really, this whole chapter is just people spinning tales and lies about each other...It’s so masterfully done." (15:34)

---

Next Week:
Chapter by Chapter continues with "Half Blood Prince Chapter 3: Will and Won’t." The panel promises new insights as Harry finally appears.

Special Guest & Where to Find Irvin’s Malfoy Book:

• Book: “Malfoy: The Fallen, the Fate of the Wizarding World’s Most Treacherous Family – An Unofficial Exploration.”
• Info, events, and order links: malfoys.com
• Three Broomsticks Podcast (with past guest spots from panelists)

---

Community MVP Responses ("Snape's Home" HGTV Titles):

• Highlights: Love It or Hex It, Dank Dungeons and Dead Mums, House Elf Handiwork: Spinner's Trend.

---

For more, catch up with MuggleCast at mugglecast.com, and join their Patreon for bonus episodes and community engagement.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and Old no. 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery Lynchburg, Tennessee the holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with with decor for every part of your home.

[B]

Check out our wide assortment of easy.

[A]

To assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables.

[B]

Whatever your style, find the right pieces.

[A]

At the right prices.

[B]

This holiday season at the Home Depot.

[C]

Experience a membership that backs what you're.

[B]

Building with American Express Business platinum unlock over $3,500 in business and travel value annually with statement credits on select purchases from brands like Dell, Hilton and Adobe and other benefits.

[D]

American Express Business Platinum.

[B]

There's nothing like it. Based on total potential value of statement credits on select purchases and other benefits.

[C]

Enrollments required monthly and other limits and terms apply.

[D]

Learn [e-mail] Business Platinum it wouldn't surprise me. I mean, he's depressed as hell. There's no getting around that.

[C]

You'd be depressed too if Wormtail were living with you.

[D]

Oh God, yeah.

[A]

Welcome to Mug O Cast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[C]

I'm Eric.

[E]

I'm Micah.

[D]

I'm Laura and we're your Harry Potter.

[A]

Friends talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show. So make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app and that way you'll never miss an episode. And this week, raise a glass of blood red wine to the Dark Lord because chapter by chapter continues with chapter two of Half Blood Prince Spinner's End. And we are excited to be joined by friend of the Pod, Muggle Net contributor podcaster himself and an author, Irvin. Welcome back to Mugglecast, Irvin.

[B]

Hey Andrew, thanks so much for having me back. It's always such a pleasure to come on.

[A]

Yeah, we're excited to have you and we wanted to have you on this week because you actually are about to publish a new book about the Malfoys, right?

[B]

True story. Yeah. My second book about the Malfoys just came out two weeks ago. It's called Malfoy and Hold on there's a long subtitle. The Fallen the Fate of the Wizarding World's Most Treacherous Family in Unofficial Exploration. So it's my Malfoy book is how I called it.

[D]

Very cool. Well, this is a perfect episode to have you on then.

[B]

Yeah, I know. Oh, I was so excited when I heard you guys were doing Spinner's End because. Well, A, it's like the best chapter and B, I wrote a whole last chapter about it in this book about whether Narcissa was planning what she planned.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[D]

Well, that'll be fun to get into.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

That's a very cool cover by the way too, with the peacock.

[B]

Oh. So I, I literally insisted on that with my publisher. They were like, so for the Malfoy book, we're thinking snake and I'm like, peacock.

[A]

And somehow you were able to the domain name malfoys.com. that's where everybody can learn more about the book and find ordering links. And you're also having a release party.

[B]

Yes. So because I am extra as hell for my book launch, I'm doing a weekend long celebration of all things Malfoy in New York City October 17th to 19th. We're doing a book launch. We're doing panels and presentations, doing a wizard rock concert called Rock the Peacock.

[A]

It's.

[B]

I'm proud of that one, I'm not gonna lie.

[D]

Oh, that's so funny.

[B]

So, yeah, if any of your listeners are in New York City, October 17th to 19th, I can promise them a really good time. And all the information's on that same website. You can go to malfoys.com amazing.

[A]

Well, welcome again. It's a pleasure to have you on and we're excited to get your insights today. Before we get to chapter by chapter, though, we do have an update about the Harry Potter TV series coming to H. We finally got a look at Dumbledore through paparazzi photos that were taken while Dumbledore, played by John Lithgow, is on a beach and he's doing a little bit of a jog in the water. And in these other shots, he's looking up into the sky and reciting a Latin incantation that translates to let the wall fall, let the way be clear. And then some other photos also taken around this time, depicted Dumbledore with two old wizards. And a lot of people are speculating that this is Nicholas Flamel and his wife. John Lithgow looks great, right as Dumbledore.

[D]

Pretty cool to see.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

It's a very Richard Harris style Dumbledore it looks a lot like Richard Harris's Dumbledore from the first two films. Especially the long beard that, you know, you, you so long that you could tuck it into your belt. And that's what pleases me to look at.

[A]

Any thoughts on what Dumbledore is doing on a beach? Is he on vacation before the school year starts? No, it's not that.

[E]

Isn't that what we always talk about.

[A]

When he's in school?

[C]

We always talk to school?

[E]

Yeah, he's on vacation at a gay.

[A]

Bar in some tropical island, I think. Go ahead, Irvin.

[B]

Well, in Goblet of Fire, Harry imagines Dumbledore on the beach when he was worried about his scar hurting. So maybe as he imagines it, we're gonna get a shot of it.

[A]

And on a related note, some people have thought they're already filming scenes for book six. I do not think that is the case at all.

[C]

This is something I think what's more likely, especially because of the old witch and wizard really look like Nicholas Flamel and Perenelle, I think his wife's name is. This is gonna be a scene having something to do with the Sorcerer's Stone. Either they're moving it or it could be from maybe at the latest the end of season one where, you know, Nick has to give up or allow this stone to be destroyed. Destroyed. Even though it would mean he and his wife eventually die. Which never made sense to me. But anyway, that's how that works.

[D]

Yeah, I mean I feel like they seem to be shooting this somewhat chronologically and we know that at the beginning of the book the Sorcerer's Stone was moved into vault, what, 687 at Gringotts. And Hagrid had to go pick it up while he was taking Harry shopping. Don't the Flamels live in France? Like it makes me wonder if Dumbledore goes to France to retrieve the stone at the beginning of series one and we actually get to see that it's not something we got to see in the book. We just learn about it. It was an off screen moment. So I'm really excited.

[A]

Yeah, we're getting stuff that like to your point, was off screen, off page. So this is another example of them world building and giving us more than what was even in the books, which is a very pleasant surprise.

[C]

Yeah, we heard a conversation happen, but you just don't know what that entailed. And getting to see it. Getting to see Dumbledore's relationship with this old friend of his who, you know, he, he probably Met Nicholas Flamel when Nicholas Flamel was like 580something but, you know, and Dumbledore was just a wee lad but now they're, they're old men together and they, you know, have this camaraderi. Dumbledore's work on alchemy is what made him get to mention on the chocolate frog that Harry reads on the train to Hogwarts. And you know, getting to look into that relationship a little further is an exciting kind of preview. Also, Nicholas Flamel, can I say, based on the pictures, does not appear to be super frail, moving real slow like he was in the Fantastic Beasts film.

[B]

This looks like a Nicholas Flamel.

[C]

Yeah, this looks like a Nicholas Flamel who has at least maintained some level of energy. Could probably do a few somersaults in the sand.

[D]

Irvin, I think you were kind of leaning towards the idea that this is around the move to Gringotts but you also have a suggestion about what the inciting event for that is. Right.

[B]

So I'm wondering if like they're going to make it like more of a cat and mouse thing with like quirrel or let's be honest, a shadowy figure we don't know, trying to steal the stone. So sort of like Dumbledore is like chilling with the Flamels on a beach and suddenly you see someone trying to get to the stone and so then they move it to Gringotts. Then they worry about Gringotts, they move it to Hogwarts. It might be more of a like active battle trying to keep the stone from whoever's trying to steal it than it is just the Gringotts to Hogwarts pipeline and then setting up the need.

[A]

To destroy it by the end of the season. So. Yeah, that does make sense.

[B]

Yeah. I just, I don't know when chronologically they'd show that because I think it would be weird, right, if we're like seeing like Harry living with the Dursleys, cut to Dumbledore and magic and battles cut back to the Dursleys.

[C]

Yeah, I was, I was so thrown by the beach. I was like, is he helping Hagrid get to Harry on the hut on the rock? Like with. He's doing magic, is he like lifting Hagrid in the air? Like I. Because that's the last thing that we saw was the Dursleys in at like a. They filmed at a. At a hotel, like an inn by the seashore. So it's pretty interesting, you know, if they were doing this strictly chronologically to figure out when this would come into play.

[E]

Andrew, I did want to just point out that you didn't translate the second half of what was on the card.

[A]

No, it wasn't as I don't have it up. Well, it was something about the environment, right?

[C]

There were two cure cards.

[E]

It said rise great avenger with wings from the water.

[B]

Oh stop.

[C]

That's not the second part of it. It wasn't part of his. Like, yeah, once it's done doesn't mean it's ever done. Rise again. Something like that.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

It was very similar, actually, Micah, to what Micah said.

[A]

That's the update there. Stick with mugglecast for continuing coverage of the TV show, which is expected to premiere later next year or early in 2027. If you love Mugglecast and want to help us keep the show looking in better shape than Snape's home, we invite you to become a member of our [e-mail] mugglecast and by supporting us, you can get instant access to two bonus episodes of the show every month, plus ad free episodes, access to our live streams, a personal video thank you message from one of the four Mugglecasters, a new gift each year and a lot more. And if you're looking for other ways to support us, you can visit mugglecastmerch.com I'm wearing our 19 years later shirt tonight. You can also leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, or you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll jump into chapter by chapter. We'll be right [e-mail] it's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. [e-mail], the only thing we treat better than Windows is you. Visit blinds.com now for up to 4585 off with minimum purchase plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply.

[C]

Welcome back. Okay, it's time to get into chapter two of Half Blood Prince titled Spinner's End. The last time that we talked about this was episode 379 of MogoCast titled Baby Micah. And Micah was not on that chapter. And it's weird. It continues to be weird. But anyway, let's dive in to Our Mugglecast Pensieve.

[D]

What you are looking at are memories.

[C]

This is the most important memory I've collected. It is from Mugglekast episode 379.

[A]

Oh my goodness.

[D]

So Snape, who did all this stuff for Lily, who's now living in the home with Wormtail. Like he has a bed because he says go to your room basically to Wormtail.

[B]

So they're like living together.

[C]

And Snape and Peter roommates.

[A]

It's like one of those awkward scripted comedy shows. Like what'll happen when Snape and Wormtail live together? Find out.

[C]

Tuesdays at 8 goes on the right side. Wormtail. How many times do I have to tell you? The spoon is on the left.

[B]

This memory is everything.

[A]

Thank you, Dumbledore who has joined the pod, evidently.

[C]

Yes, yes, yes. Special thanks to Albus Dumbledore aka Charlie Hopkinson on TikTok who recorded some lines as Dumbledore saying Mugglecast and each of the numbers will incrementally go up.

[D]

That's awesome.

[B]

Uncanny. That's so impressive.

[C]

I'm very happy with it. I had a little turnaround time but it'll sound even smoother next week.

[E]

Who is the guest host at the top?

[A]

There were two. Two listeners, Stephanie. And I was confused too, so I loaded up the show notes.

[C]

No, both Micah and Laura were not on the chapter discussion last week. It was just Andrew, me and two of our listeners, Alex and Stephanie. Alex and Stephanie, now that we have the full cast panel, very excited.

[D]

Yeah, maybe we'll get some new insights this week, so.

[C]

Well, definitely from Irvin who wrote the book on the Malfoy. Yes.

[D]

Yeah, I'm definitely a little intimidated because I feel like I have a Malfoy expert here on the panel.

[A]

So if Laura and Micah weren't on, then Eric and I shouldn't be on this episode. So we'll see you all later.

[D]

Bye bye guys. No, we have to complete the set. Obviously. Without further ado, this chapter picks up in Spinner's End following Narcissa and Bellatrix as Narcissa is desperately in pursuit of someone or something to help her. It's not made entirely clear at the beginning of the chapter what that is, but I think as readers we can make some assumptions given the fact that we know her husband has been been locked up in Azkaban, but he's also disgraced amongst the other Death Eaters and Voldemort for his failure to procure the prophecy last book. And I thought we could talk about Spinner's End here for a moment to kind of set the stage for this discussion. So some important lore here. Spinner's End is Snape's childhood home, which was also near young Lily and Petunia Evans's childhood home. So it's where Snape and Lily met each other as children. So between this and there are some other threads that we'll talk about as we unravel this discussion. There's a lot of threads, like, being established in this chapter for upcoming plot and, like, later character revelations.

[E]

Yeah, there's a lot of symbolism, too. The fact that we're in Spinner's End.

[C]

Right.

[E]

Thinking about spiders spinning a web of deceit.

[A]

I thought you were going to say spinning a story, spinning a tail, spinning.

[C]

A story or a web of mystery. We get told a story, we don't.

[B]

Know what to believe.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, the last time I did a podcast about this chapter, we started with the lens of who is the Spinner and what is their end? Because really, this whole chapter is just people spinning tales and lies about each other. You know, between Snape, Bellatrix, Narcissa, Dumbledore and Voldemort's machinations behind the scenes and the tale that Rowling is spinning, still trying to maintain ambiguity about Snape's allegiance. Like, it's just. It's so masterfully done.

[A]

It is. Let's, before we dive too deep, look at Snape's house, though. What does it say? That he chooses to stay in his childhood home.

[C]

And.

[A]

And that it's in bad shape. To me, one thing it says is that he has his mind elsewhere. He's focused on his life at Hogwarts. What's going on with Dumbledore and Voldemort. He doesn't really have time to keep up a nicer home. But what else does it say? Because that can't be it.

[E]

There's probably a bit of trauma going on here for Snape. He clearly hasn't gotten over his childhood. We see that come up in previous books. And this is the home that we find out later on in Half Blood Prince, where his father was extremely abusive towards his mother, as well as towards Snape. So I think there's probably a little bit of that at play.

[C]

It's not a home of happy memories, that's for sure. And the fact that it's not better maintained could indeed speak to Snape's. I think being stuck back there mentally, because, you know, an accomplished wizard would just really be able to make all sorts of modifications. You could make it a grand castle. You wouldn't Even need to build anything. You just do it by magic. And this is just kind of a dank place. A lot of books. Like, he feels kind of. It feels like he's imprisoned.

[A]

He also could just move, but he stays there.

[C]

Yeah. That's another interest.

[B]

For two months of the year, though. Right. I think he just couldn't be bothered that it's just like a brief, inconvenient place to stay that he has.

[A]

True.

[C]

Assuming both of his parents passed, this is something that he would have inherited. And maybe there's some happy memories there, but still, it's kind of like Harry having to go back to Privet Drive, you know, two months out of the year, you know, it's just like, this is not a happy place. Yeah. Yeah.

[E]

It struck me, though, also as just being a place of convenience for what he's tasked with doing.

[C]

Well, it's not exactly becoming of a prince, though.

[D]

No.

[B]

But I think maybe a half Blood prince.

[C]

It's half befitting for a whole prince. So there you go.

[A]

But I think that the description of Snape's home is to further throw us off the scent that this could be that half Blood Prince. Because to your point, Eric, a prince wouldn't live here.

[D]

Yeah, that's a good call.

[A]

This second chapter, again, just like chapter one, expands the wizarding world in a way we haven't seen before. This is the first time we're seeing inside a professor's home.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Still no Harry.

[D]

Definitely.

[B]

Well, and Eric, to your point about lots of books, I don't know if you guys are familiar with David Martin, the guy who won the Tournament of Houses thing on HBO Max.

[C]

Ooh.

[B]

So he does amazing presentations at conventions. And one of the best ones I went to was where he talked about the role of books in the Potter series.

[D]

The.

[B]

And basically how all the good guys in the series all read books, use books, have books in their home. All the bad guys never have books around. They use people instead of books. So he says that the minute we saw his house full of bookshelves, that should have told us that Snape is actually a good guy. So the question is, allegiance settled right.

[A]

Here, as Irvin says this in front of a lot of books behind him. But this theory doesn't work for me because look at Micah. He's a bad guy. And I see two big old bookcases behind him.

[C]

What am I of the same book? I got a bunch of copies.

[A]

I barely have books here. And it's because I'm a bad guy.

[C]

I have. Quick, get it Get. Get books. Get quick. I love that theory. The poster writes itself, you know, pro reading in the wizarding world.

[D]

Definitely something else that just occurred to me as we're talking about, like, what's Snape's motivation for continuing to maintain a residence here? And I think part of it can go back to the connection to Lily that this is where they. They kind of grew up together in the same area. And we know he's miserable, and we know that the only reason he's still involved with any of this is because he tried to save Lily. He failed. And as a result of all the guilt that he carries, he's ultimately protecting Harry. He's made that pledge to Dumbledore. But we also know that he tries to keep Lily close as much as he can. I mean, to the point where in his dying moment, he wants Harry to look at him so he can see his mother's eyes. Like he's still, like, holding out a flame for a dead woman.

[C]

I wonder if he takes daily walks to the park where he saw Lily and Petunia as kids and probably spent some afternoons in the sun chatting to Lily about wizards.

[D]

It wouldn't surprise me. I mean, he's. He's depressed as hell. There's no getting around it.

[C]

You'd be depressed, too, if Wormtail were living with you.

[D]

Oh, God, yeah, Absolutely. Micah, talk to me about the symbolism of the fox.

[E]

Yeah, well, you know, I like goats, but I feel like we have to talk about another animal in this particular chapter. But the. The fox that pops up, which, I mean, this is industrial uk, right? I don't. I wouldn't expect a fox normally to just pop its head out, but, I mean, we. I don't know if it's because there's a bit of symbolism here. Right. Foxes are known for their trickery and their cunning, and Bellatrix is very quick to AK that fox. And I don't know if we're meant to draw anything from that. I don't. I don't feel like. Is it more just, oh, innocent animal, Bellatrix, cruel woman. Or is it. Or we meet. Are we meant to read into it a little bit more?

[C]

I assume there's a lot of. Like, there's coyotes in Chicago. Like, you know, just wilderness, regular wilderness. If they're around a river, riverbed, there are. There are stoats. There are all sorts of just wildlife that are living close enough to tiny homes that, you know, it unfortunately, is. Is an innocent victim, though, which is just a shame. It's the first death in this book.

[A]

And that's kind of the symbolism there. Maybe an innocent victim. Draco is an innocent victim of all this, I think.

[D]

Yeah. And foxes are cute, so it is very sad. But we. We hear Bellatrix say, oh, shoot, sorry, thought that was an Auror. Just a fox, don't worry about it. So I think it goes to show how trigger happy she is. Like, it's reminding us that she is her sanity is, like, hanging on by a thread.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yep.

[D]

So, along with this, Bellatrix is fruitlessly trying to convince her sister to turn back and not to purs. Whatever it is she is seeking. And obviously it becomes clear that, you know, they are looking for Snape. They're going to this very sad, damp and decrepit childhood home that he has taken up residence in. But something that I found really interesting about the exchanges between Bellatrix and Narcissa is that Bellatrix is kind of tentatively, a little bit timidly almost expressing that she thinks the Dark Lord maybe mistaken about Snape's loyalty. But this chapter makes it clear that Bellatrix also isn't as plugged in to Voldemort's inner circle and his movements as she would purport to be. So do we think this is why she doesn't take a harder line with her sister?

[B]

I think it's the completely different. I think it's because she loves her sister. I think that Narcissa is probably the only person in the world whom Beltrix actually loves, aside from Voldemort, just because the way they interact when, you know, Narcissa turns her wand on Beltrix and Beltrix is like, come on, you wouldn't your own sister. Like, I think that says a lot more about Beltrix's relationship to Narcissa. That basically, like, she thinks that she and Narcissa should be the most important thing to each other, more important than sons or husbands or Dark Lords. Whereas Narcissa clearly disagrees. And I think that makes the disconnect between them. But that's like the most interesting thing about Bellatrix to me is the fact that she does actually love her sister and, like, does have layers to her character.

[D]

I love that.

[C]

I like that a lot.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

It's worth noting that they both have a third sister who is not in the picture. Tonks Mom. Andromeda, who by all accounts is awesome. Sirius, I think, said that she's his favorite cousin. She married a Muggle born and was ostracized. So I think that in Andromeda's absence, when she was purged from the Family and stricken off the black family tree. Narcissa and Bellatrix could have gotten closer as a result.

[B]

Well, and they're, they're all they each other had, you know, from the family that's left, like, the parents are long gone. You know, Sirius and Regulus are both out of the picture. So it's just them and their little unit.

[D]

Yeah, Irvin, I really love that observation and I almost wonder if there's a thread we can pull around motherhood there, because we know motherhood. I mean, it's such a huge theme in this series, but we ultimately know motherhood is what drives Narcissa to do what she does in the next book. So do you think there's an implication here that Narcissa is basically saying to Bellatrix, you think I wouldn't, Sorry, my son trumps you. He outranks you?

[B]

Absolutely. Well, because Bellatrix is sort of meant to be like the like, archetypal opposite of the like mother's love. That's the end all, be all in this series. I think that here they're actually. Joe is actually very actively trying to draw the contrast between the two, where Narcissa falls into the long noble tradition of mothers, you know, of Molly, of Lily, who will do anything and sacrifice anything for their children, whereas Bellatrix as the bad guy and, you know, the complete contrast to them is like, if I had sons, I'd give them up to the Dark Lord, like, kids, whatever.

[D]

So what do you think while we're on this topic, of the dynamic between the sisters, but also the dynamic like Bellatrix's dynamic and sort of like her trying to be, you know, take care of her sister, but also wanting to be Voldemort's right hand woman. You, you put a really interesting question in here about do you think Bellatrix would rather be right or wrong about Snape being disloyal? Can you unpack that for us a little bit?

[C]

Sure.

[B]

So, you know, Beltrix comes in, guns a blazing, you know, telling Snape, before anyone gets a word out, that I do not trust you, as you very well know. And when Snape is like, okay, why don't you trust me? Beltrix comes with receipts. We get like paragraphs to be like, and then you did this and then you weren't there and where were you and why is Harry Potter live? And Snape of course asks like, you know, do you, like, do you think Voldemort's wrong? And Beltrix is like, I think the Dark Lord's mistaken. So I'm wondering because Bellatrix is so very gung ho about the Dark Lord. Like, you know, true believer, like fighting for the cause, willing to give up sons and all the rest of it. I'm wondering if she would rather be right or wrong about Snape being disloyal to the Dark Lord because if she's right, that actively undermines her beloved Dark Lord and that weakens his position. And you know, as a selfless Death Eater who wants what's best for the cause, she should want Snape to be loyal as a Death Eater who's very much trying to advance herself, who wants to be the favorite Death Eater and see Snape rightfully as her main rival for that position. I think she's very invested in, you know, Snape being evil and in her being right that he's disloyal.

[D]

I tend to agree with you. I think she's an opportunist at the end of the day and I think she's always looking out for number one.

[E]

I think, yeah, she just wants to be relevant at the end of the day. And I agree with you. I think that she wants Snape's position. She wants to be that level of importance to the, the Dark Lord.

[C]

It's clear that she's not right. That, that Snape, that Voldemort told Snape about his plan with Draco shows that Snape is as close as Bellatrix maybe used to be. Right? Especially because Bellatrix, since the Ministry event has fallen out of the Dark Lord's favor, catching Snape and being able to prove that he's secretly a good guy working for Dumbledore would put her back in the good graces of Voldemort. So I think that's what she wants, that's what she prefers, is for Snape to be bad and her to prove it so that she can get back to where she used to be on.

[B]

Voldemort's good side from the perspective of what they bring to the Death Eater organization, right? Like Snape is probably the only Death Eater who is more or less her match in terms of magical prowess, right? Like most of the rest of them don't really seem like superlative wizards, but I think Snape could give Beltrix a run for her money. And on top of that, Snape also has the intelligence aspect, you know, the fact that he is a spy, the fact that he can report on Dumbledore. So Bellatrix's only edge if she's trying to be a more valuable Death Eater would be loyalty to the Dark Lord. And that's why she comes in guns blinked. She's like, I have endured 12 years in Azkaban while you have done, and sapes like, right. But what good is that? And then she just completely flies off the handle.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, her perspective is like, I suffered for him. Right.

[A]

I sat there and asked Caban. And Snape has so many great quips, it's amazing. Yeah. So a couple great quips about that.

[E]

Going off of what was said earlier related to love. Do we think that Bellatrix might be doing this in part to try and protect her sister?

[D]

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. I think so.

[B]

I mean, why else would she go to a Muggle town and spend the night with Snape? That doesn't seem like her idea of a good Saturday night.

[A]

Yeah, one of them described it not so pleasantly at the start of this chapter.

[D]

Yeah. So they arrive at Snape's, you know, very sad childhood home and he welcomes them in very magnanimously, or at least Narcissa. It's very clear that he's not super stoked to see Bellatrix. And that feeling is mutual. We also encounter Wormtail and learn that he's Snape's new roommate. Which is definitely an interesting combination. Right, Irvin?

[B]

Max, that it's such a genius move on Voldemort's part. Right. He takes the two Death Eaters that he doesn't trust in the slightest, makes them live together, and I would bet money that both of them are then reporting back on the other to Voldemort. So Wormtail's spying on me, Ape's spying on Wormtail, and them together is keeping each other honest from Voldemort's perspective.

[C]

That's funny.

[B]

Honestly, Voldemort's kind of good at running an evil organization at times.

[A]

Well. And there is one moment in this chapter where we hear that Wormtail is listening against the door as they're having the conversation. That further aids your point. I mean, sure, he could just be a curious fellow, but he also wants to relay information back to Voldemort to get back into Voldemort's good graces.

[C]

Well, and that's. And that's Voldemort's big trick is having all of his Death Eaters sort of compete for his affection and time. And, you know, Pettigrew, for all the things that he's done to advance the cause, is consistently relegated to the. Basically the dung heap. And he's still inspired to keep trying to get back on the good side.

[B]

Yeah, it's why this is Such a great chapter because it's the only time we see the Death Eaters spend time together without Voldemort there. And so seeing how they're competing for his favor, but also how afraid they are of Voldemort. Like, literally, they all get together and the first thing they do is drink to the Dark Lord. Like, that's insane.

[D]

Yeah, but, yeah, they're. They're all simultaneously afraid of getting on his bad side. I mean, I think jumping back to that, like, the Bellatrix motivation of it all, you know, I think she wants to be right, but I think she's also terrified to tell Voldemort about her theories in case she's wrong because she's already screwed up once in the last couple of months and she doesn't want to screw up again. So it is, it is very interesting and I think a theme that really stuck out to me about this chapter as we get into, you know, Bellatrix being about to spill the beans about Voldemort's plan. Snape's like, girl, say less. I already know his plan. He wants Draco to kill Dumbledore. Like, this is the chapter where we really start to see Death Eaters realize that they are not special and that the consequences of Voldemort's reign of power are not just going to fall on the, quote, less desirable classes that they were thinking were going to be punished. As soon as they no longer have youth to Voldemort, he'll turn on them too. So this is a case of Narcissa and, like, Irvin. I don't, I don't want to talk crap, but the feeling I got throughout reading this was like, this is Narcissa's version. And something that we see a lot in the history of the world of people who are gung ho about really nefarious and evil movements and policies until they realize that the goalposts can shift. And as soon as you are no longer sort of like at the top rank of the preferred class, you are subject to a lot of the same treatment.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, Narcissa's only objection to the Dark Lord is that, you know, it places her family in danger.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. She would be perfectly happy to follow him and do pretty much anything he requests of her family if it wasn't putting them in direct risk.

[D]

Yeah, well, and it's also really where we see the groundwork for what she's ultimately gonna do in the next book. Again, she says to Bellatrix a little earlier, like, there's nothing I wouldn't do anymore because this is. It's her only son. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And so we, we see the motivation here. She's going to ask Snape to keep Draco safe and to help him.

[E]

Yeah. What's so interesting in watching Snape operate in this particular moment is that at least my head canon and I know Irvin's gonna debunk me in a minute, but I'm not. I. I wasn't convinced that Snape knew of Voldemort's plan for Draco. And we know he's this accomplished Legila man. So I'm just, you know, just bear with me here for a moment. So I was thinking, could he in fact be reading Narcissus mind when he steps away? Because he does this periodically. Right. In. In this chapter, during the conversation, he goes over to the window. You know, I think it would actually have been cool if he didn't know the plan and he was using, you know, his abilities in this moment to continue to manipulate the situation to his advantage.

[B]

I mean, that was a very popular theory before Deathly Hallows came out because it was genuinely ambiguous whether he knew the plan in the scene or not.

[A]

He doesn't really share any details as Narcissa is talking. I think the one line, and I'm trying to find it right now, that does suggest he may have actually known the plan was when Snape says something like, if Draco were to pull this off, his name would become legend or something like that. So Snape has an idea that what he's about to do is a big deal.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

I mean, he could just be embellishing there.

[B]

Right.

[E]

Like he doesn't have to know what it is exactly.

[C]

But I think that. I think that Snape relishes being able to say, you don't need to tell me, I already know. Of course we know. He loves that. I think though, especially in front of Bellatrix. Yeah. I think he's like, impress her and anger her at the same time with how cool he is. That's a very like Snape sort of thing. But no, I. I am of the mind that he does know about it because also his position as a double agent. He needs to know everything that's going on on both sides so that he can protect himself and also be ready for anything. Like he probably suspected or guessed or was mentally prepared to do something like the Unbreakable Vow before Bellatrix and Narcissa ever showed up. Just think about how it works out. Yeah.

[E]

I mean, maybe it's just A matter of him measuring the moment. To your point about this unbreakable vow that's coming, you know, that that's a lot to, you know, take in.

[A]

It's great headcanon, though, Micah. And I mean, it's too bad it's debunked, because I really do like this theory. And as Snape says in this chapter, I've played my part well. This is Snape working both sides, and it's delicious to see.

[B]

Yeah. Cause it's only debunked in the Princess Tail, the scene in the Prince's Tale when Dumbledore injures his arm. He then immediately goes to Snape, and then he mentions, I refer to the plan Lord Voldemort is revolving around me. His plan to have the poor Malfoy boy murder me. And so that scene takes place before Spinner's End, because in Spinner's End, Snape references the injured hand, so that confirms he did know, because he and Dumbledore talked about it. But again, we only found that out in Deathly Hallows. And also, if Bellatrix is as smart as she hopes she is, Bellatrix also might realize that for all of Snape's talk, he also didn't actually say he knew what the plan was. Rather, he said he knew what it was, but he didn't actually say what it was.

[D]

Yeah, that's true.

[B]

So I think the ambiguity is built into the scene.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Do we also think there's like a double motivation or a dual motivation for Voldemort here? Because, one, he gets to torture the hell out of the Malfoy family for a year to punish Lucius. Right. But two, if we believe Snape, if we take him at his word when he says, yeah, I believe that Voldemort does intend for me to step in should Draco fail. Is this Voldemort saying, like, hey, I get to torture the Malfoys, but also I get to put Snape's loyalty to the ultimate test.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, Snape expects it. He says that. I think, to Narcissa, I believe Voldemort wants, or the Dark Lord expects me to do it if Draco fails. And then that's what sets Narcissa off, because she's like, so then my son's life is. Doesn't matter at all. You don't need to use them at all. But, yeah, Snape knows that it will come down to him, that Draco will fail and Voldemort.

[B]

And that's a question of logistics, too. Right? Like, besides the. You know, loyalty test. Like, Snape is the one who works with Dumbledore. Who has regular access to Dumbledore. Like, if anyone's going to kill Dumbledore, it's going to be Snape. Like, giving Draco the assignment is pure punishment. Like, it only makes sense that Snape will do it in the end.

[D]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Well, we're going to dive a little bit deeper into some of these character motivations, but also the ways these characters show up in this chapter. But first we need to take a quick break to pay our bills and then we'll be right back.

[C]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] this episode is brought to.

[D]

You by State Farm.

[B]

Listening to this podcast Smart move. Being financially savvy.

[C]

Smart move.

[D]

Another smart move.

[B]

Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle.

[D]

Home and auto bundling.

[C]

Just another way to save with a personal price plan.

[B]

Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[D]

All right, we're back. So I wanted to ask, what do we make of the Snape that we see in this chapter? The way he communicates with Narcissa in particular feels different. It's more adult than what we're used to with him. And I think it's because there are no children in this chapter because they're adults. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And the wine is out.

[D]

That's true.

[C]

You know, one of the comments I want to highlight from our discord people who are listening live right now from Headweeks. Theme says weirdly, love Snake being snarky when it's directed at adults and not school kids. Yeah, it's different. This hits different there.

[A]

And it's not bullying. I mean, it's bad when you're watching him be snarky towards the students because he's bullying these kids. But adults, I mean, is it the best thing to do? Not necessarily.

[C]

But to these, his contempt for Wormtail. Like, Wormtail's on all of our shit list. Right? Like, so it's okay for him to treat him subhumanly or whatever, in front of others. Like his contempt for Bellatrix, who's just utterly absurd. She just killed Sirius Black. Like, we're ready for. We're ready to have some level of Avenger.

[E]

Well, that's the only thing he's happy about, right?

[B]

Yeah, he does. Like, I give you full credit, raises his glass.

[A]

Yeah, that was kind of a bit of a surprise.

[B]

But he's fair.

[A]

Snape is fair.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, we have to remember, Wormtail is ultimately part of the group that bullied him so terribly when he was in school.

[B]

He's also the reason Lily's dead.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. Man, that. That adds a whole other layer to this, too. Like, Snape is being forced to live with the guy whose fault it is. And, like, granted, it's also kind of Snape's fault.

[C]

True.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[C]

But that's. It's probably about 50%. Like, Snape loosened the guardrails. So Voldemort never would have known about the prophecy if it weren't for Snape specifically. And if it weren't for Wormtail specifically, he never would have been able to find the Potters.

[A]

But that makes it all the worse that the two people responsible for Lily's death are now having to coexist, cohabitate the same space.

[B]

And that's why Snape treats Pettigrew the way the Dursleys treat Harry, where when company comes over, he is sent to his room to make no noise and pretend he doesn't exist.

[C]

Mm.

[D]

Yeah, I love that.

[B]

To your point about how Snape relates to Narcissa and them being, you know, adults. There was a theory back in the day that I encountered that an online friend of mine actually was very gung ho about that Narcissa was trying to seduce Snape when she showed up at Spinner's End that night.

[C]

Ooh la la.

[A]

Snape and Narcissa. Voldemort and Bellatrix.

[C]

Woo.

[A]

What is this evidence?

[B]

Go ahead. Well, the evidence is a bit flimsy in my view, but basically there's two bits. First is that there's this line in half footprints where she slid off the sofa into a kneeling position at Snape's feet, seized his hand in both of hers and pressed her lips to it.

[C]

She's begging for her son's life.

[A]

Yeah, this is her son we're talking about.

[C]

Context matters.

[B]

And, well, the other bit is the context, which is that a woman does not show up on a man's doorstep late at night asking for a favor without insinuating Hussy This.

[A]

Okay, well, the. The darkness and the COVID of night might help avoid Muggles. So maybe that's why they're showing up at this time of day. Makes it more eerie. Also, I don't know it for a fact, I just believe it to be true. All Death Eaters are night owls. It's just how they are.

[C]

Maybe they believe that Snape is a vampire and so he wouldn't be there during the day anyway. He'd be resting.

[D]

Maybe.

[B]

I don't buy it, but. But my friend is a Gen X British woman like Jo Rowling and I am not. So perhaps she has a better grasp of how Joe thinks women and late night bachelors relate to each other.

[A]

I love a late night booty call.

[D]

Well, you know, I do not need that mental image in my head. Peace and love, thank you very much.

[B]

Um, sorry I asked the questions. You decide.

[A]

Yes, I appreciate it. It's a fun theory.

[C]

Amazing.

[D]

It is.

[C]

Yeah, it is.

[D]

Well, don't worry, we're going to talk about some. Some other cases where we know that there were probably some late night liaisons going on a little bit later. But I do love, and, and we kind of talked about this a bit before, but he. He really does have such a different regard for Bellatrix than he does for Narcissa. And I know there were some great quips that all of y' all made notes about and called out. So I want to make sure that we get to share some love for those. If folks want to call those out.

[B]

I mean, the best one has to be the 12 years in Azkaban. And he's like, well, it's a fine gesture to be sure.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Literally steam comes out of her ears for me.

[E]

And I'm paraphrasing a bit here, but he says to Bellatrix, you don't think the Dark Lord has asked the very same questions? You know, like that list that Urban was referencing earlier. He's like, yeah. You don't think that the guy in charge asked me every single one of these questions at some point and what, I didn't answer them satisfactorily, basically. Why do I have to answer to you if I've already answered to him?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I just like how cool and collected he is with it. As if he expected it. And the fact that he does have these answers and they play, I think that they. I mean, Bellatrix comes away from that being unsure. And that's a mark of its effectiveness.

[B]

One more quip when Beltrix is like. He calls me his most loyal, his Most faithful. And Snape is like, does he? Does he?

[A]

And all this happening in Snape's own home makes it all the more delicious as well. Like, he's fully in control here. And I mean, you know, we were talking earlier about this home being lifeless and dreary, but he's really spicing things up this night.

[C]

He's coming alive.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

I think it's the wine.

[A]

It's probably partly the wine.

[D]

Yeah. He's unwinding. Yeah.

[E]

I just love how this chapter really shows what a badass Snape actually was. The. We're forgetting in all of this, I think the fact that he's been lying straight up to Voldemort for years.

[C]

To his face.

[E]

Yeah, to his face. So while this theater has been very fun to enjoy, there's also the whole other side that he's been able to lie without any repercussion whatsoever. It's super impressive.

[B]

Yeah. Well, how weird is it that in this scene we relate to Bellatrix? Like, when she's asking Snape all these questions, she's like, I don't know if I can trust you. I don't know what you're up to. And we're like, I mean, yeah, us too.

[D]

Yeah, she's the reader in this case.

[B]

Isn't that bizarre?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty awesome.

[D]

Well, with that in mind, do we recall what we thought of Snape's allegiance when we first read this?

[C]

That's a good question, because that predates I went to US by about three weeks.

[A]

I know.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

I wish I remember.

[C]

I feel. I feel like I was like, firmly, okay, Snape is a good guy. His contempt for Bellatrix, like, proves that to me that he's not, you know, buddy, buddy. But at the same time, the way that the rug gets pulled out from readers at the end of the book when he goes. Goes ahead and kills Dumbledore. Right? So between this chapter, I'm like, oh, he's clearly a good guy. Then at the end of the book, he does this unforgivable thing by casting an unforgivable curse. And you're kind of left, despite this first chapter, still wandering into book seven, right? That's when the great Snape debate comes out. Is after this book. So, yeah, I seem to remember thinking he was good. But I. I think that the story of this book shook me a little. Going into book seven, I don't know what I thought.

[B]

So I remember I thought he was good. When I read Spinner's End. Cause I was like, oh, this is the story he's been telling the Death Eater. That's what we're finding out. And then when he kills Dumbledore, then I was like, oh, he's evil. He's so obviously evil. It was right there in black and white. He told us he was evil and then he turned out to be evil. So after reading Hamful Prince, I was so thoroughly convinced Snape was a bad guy because of this. Among other things, you know, as, as.

[A]

The leader of Team Dumbledore is the best. I, I believe I trusted in Dumbledore. He knew what he was doing. He is right. Snape is good. And also flashback to, they were just briefly mentioned like the Snape is good, Snape is evil debate. Pre Deathly Hallows. The bookstores were really leaning into this as well. I remember at Borders or Barnes and Noble there was Snape is good, Snape is bad.

[C]

But it was Borders maybe.

[A]

Yeah, it was. The debate was hot.

[B]

I have it.

[C]

I have the book. The Great Snape Debate. This is the case for Snape's innocence. And then when you flip the book, it's the case for Snape's guilt. And so half the book is printed upside down so that you can read all the evidence for He's a good guy.

[A]

You look like Luna Lovegood reading that.

[B]

That's pretty cool. Have that.

[C]

This was Borders or I got it from Borders. 32.99. I think that's New Zealand.

[E]

That's expensive.

[C]

Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's New Zealand dollars. So it's 77 cents per anyway.

[D]

Yeah, okay, well, got it.

[E]

You should only have to pay $16.

[C]

Worth because I don't know that I paid anything for this or I got the staff discount at the time.

[E]

So I'm trying to remember. I, I think I was probably in the camp of thinking that he was playing a role. But then I probably got scared when he made the Unbreakable Vow because I realized nothing good could come of that.

[D]

Yeah, I remember feeling like he was good, but that he was caught in an impossible situation where he kind of had to make the Unbreakable Vow to keep his cover. And I remember at the time feeling like, okay, a big chunk of this book is going to center around Snape figuring out how to circumvent this so that he can save himself and Draco. And maybe his allegiance to Dumbledore is going to be revealed in this book. Obviously not what ended up happening, but I, I think I still always kind of maintain the Snape is good. Of course that's relative because I don't think Snape is good or evil. I think he's lots of shades of gray.

[B]

How many shades? I think 50 or more.

[C]

Shades. Yeah.

[D]

Oh, so he's like the Baskin Robbins of shades of gray.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Well, when Narcissa shows up, I can't even say her name.

[C]

Narcissia.

[A]

Narcissa shows up.

[E]

That's her stage name. You can call her When Narcissa shows up. Yeah, When Sissy shows up.

[B]

Yeah, just call her Sissy.

[C]

Everyone else does.

[D]

So, speaking about some more adult themes, we know there's clearly trouble in paradise with Voldemort and Bellatrix at this point. When Snape calls her out for the Ministry fiasco and implies that she doesn't know as much as she thinks he does or she does, he says, oh, have you discussed this matter with the Dark Lord? And she just goes, he. Lately, we. I'm asking you, Snape, like, it's very clear that Voldemort is keeping her at army arm's length right now because she screwed up.

[C]

Womp, Womp.

[D]

But I know we've also talked about the timing of Delfy's birth and I did a little bit of like, napkin math on this. So we know, according to the Harry Potter Wiki, that Delfy was apparently born in secret at Malfoy Manor in early March of 1998. Too much. Months before her parents died at the Battle of Hogwarts. So if we work backwards From March of 1998, that means Bellatrix gets pregnant in roughly June or July of 1997.

[C]

Which will be next year. So like a year from now?

[D]

Yes. So do Voldemort and Bellatrix reconcile after the successful killing of Dumbledore and celebrate? And then we get Delphi. Gross.

[A]

Yeah, well, and tying this back to Irvin's question earlier about whether Bellatrix would be excited or mad that she was right or wrong about Snape. Maybe she wanted to celebrate the Dark Lord being right about Snape. So she was like, let's do this, baby.

[B]

Woo hoo.

[D]

She's like, you were right the whole time, hon.

[B]

Never doubted you, not for a minute.

[A]

Let's now, this is a real, very real booty call that happened.

[C]

And, well, and you know, it really goes back to our recent discussion at the Battle of the Ministry chapter, because Voldemort specifically saves Bellatrix from Azkaban. He doesn't have to. He could have just skedaddled. But he specifically apparates. This is why Fudge sees him. The entire reason Fudge sees him and thus reveals his existence to the wizarding world again is because Voldemort shows up, makes himself visible after possessing Harry just to grab Bellatrix. And so I bet that Voldemort quickly regrets saving her and thus puts her at arm's length where we see her be so desperate for his attention and affection in this chapter, which is only a few months later.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, he's upset with her and mad at her, but she's still, as duly Hallow says, his last best lieutenant. So I think he still values her, even if he's upset with her, like.

[C]

She'S a true believer. Yeah, he's just not gonna love it.

[B]

She gets a couple strikes, like most of the Death Eaters get. One strike, Beltrix might get three.

[C]

Yeah. Not to mention she and Lucius were one of the few Death Eaters whom, or with whom Dumbledore placed a Horcrux. So there's clearly a special superlative level of trust here.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Between Voldemort and his followers.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I actually find it interesting to consider the other way of. What if Beltrix was growing disenchanted with Voldemort? And we know that didn't end up happening because Deathly Hallows, you know, we've read Deathly Hallows, but when the sixth book was out before we had the seventh, you could paint a convincing picture off of the Spinner's End chapter of Bellatrix, getting much less impressed with Voldemort and much more impressed with Snape, that same friend with the Narcissus Snape theory. Madam Roz wrote a great essay about it over in, like, 2006, about how basically, if you look at the Department of Mysteries, where Voldemort just completely screwed up, like he had a bad plan, the plan failed, it all blew up in his face. Then he took it out on her. He ignored her warnings about Dumbledore, and now suddenly Snape's here and Snape is making these unbreakable vows and Beltrix is like, damn, I feel like you could sort of take this chapter as a starting point for a storyline where Beltrix, you know, goes apostate against Voldemort. And I think that would have actually been a really cool story.

[C]

You can see it in the way that she slides off the couch and gets to her knees and kisses Snape's ring as well.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[D]

Well, let's talk about the Unbreakable Vow.

[E]

Who knew Spinner's End was such a place to be?

[B]

I came to elevate things and, you know, make it classy.

[A]

Here you are.

[B]

Thanks. I try.

[A]

Make Mugglecast weird again.

[D]

Did we ever stop being weird?

[A]

One of our listeners requested that we be weird again. Yeah. So that's that campaign.

[C]

Yeah. Speaking of, you know all this talk about Bellatrix. Bellatrix is married.

[E]

That's true.

[B]

Oh, yeah, we forgot. So did she.

[C]

Ah. Rodolphus Lestrange, what is Bellatrix's relationship? He's never in the picture.

[B]

He's the real victim. Right.

[E]

Justice for Adolphus.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Well, anyway, let's talk about this Unbreakable Vow real quick. So we know Snape agrees that he will help Draco to succeed in his mission to kill Dumbledore. However, Irvin, you made a great call out that he is roped into a portion of the Unbreakable Vow that he wasn't anticipating because it's very different to say, yeah, I'll help him. But then what does Narcissa do?

[B]

Yeah, okay. So when I was writing my book, I went into this chapter, like, line by line and word by word, because that's the kind of book Half Footprints is. And so basically, Narcissa comes in with three requests, which, like, it's hard to keep your. It's hard to keep track of because Beltrix is there, like, you know, at an 11. But if you ignore all Bellatrix. So first, Narcissa asks, will you, like, you know, intervene? Will you ask the Dark Lord? Will you try to get Draco out of this? And Snape getting all his PTSD flashbacks to the last time a woman he cared about was in the Dark Lord's crosshairs. A woman named after Flower and he wanted to kill her son. Snape is like, nope, not doing it. Doesn't end well. Then Narcissa's second request is, will you do the thing so Draco doesn't have to. At which point Snape is like, I think I eventually have to, but I can't do it now because, you know, that Dark Lord said Draco has to do it. The third ask is, will you watch over him? Will you help him? And then he's like, yes. That's when the Unbreakable Vow comes in. So, you know, they. They clasp hands. Beltrix whips out her wand and, you know, the first two clauses in the Unbreakable Vow are exactly what they just talked about. Like, will you watch over Draco? Yes, I will. Will you help him as best you can? Yes, I will. And then she just pulls one out of the hat and is like, also, will you kill him if Draco won't, she just goes back to the second clause, like, out of nowhere. We thought the question was settled. And that's when Snape's hand is like, witching holding hers. But, like, he's in way too deep at that point. He can't say no. They're already, you know, vowing. And so with his twitching hand, he says yes. And that's when we get Beltrix's astonished face as the third tongue of flame comes from her wand. So, like, Narcissa 100% trapped him there at the end. Like, Snape did not want to make that third vow. He did not want to commit to killing Dumbledore in Draco's steady, but she got him.

[A]

Yeah, well, and Snape's hand twitching during this moment with the third ask, I think just locks in your theory here that this is absolutely right.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And, yeah. And so the chapter in my book is about whether or not that was premeditated on Narcissus part, which, I mean, spoiler alert, I say no, but I lay out the.

[C]

Yeah, I think she's too emotional to have premeditated anything other than going to see him and hoping he can help. But it's fascinating to think about, especially because it is a gotcha. And it very rarely occurs to me, but definitely this chapter is the time to think about it, that Snape probably has affection toward Dumbledore. There's no place for him ever to show it. But this is the man that has offered Snape a redemption for his actions. And it's the man that single handedly is where, like, I don't think Snape likes Voldemort. I don't think Snape has ever seen, you know, Voldemort as anything other than unappealing since the Lily death incident. But, you know, this twitch of him having to commit to killing Dumbledore. First of all, love to know what that conversation is like, how to, how to go with the sisters. Well, headmaster said, I'm gonna kill you, but no, having to actually do the deed and kill this person. I mean, we get to see it happen. And Snape is miserable when he does it.

[B]

Yeah, well, and to your point about Dumbledore, I think we see a bit of Dumbledore in Snape in this scene. Just because Snape's sense of humor in this scene is like. I mean, it's pretty uncharacteristic of him just when we see him interacting with students. But like, his sardonic little comments and the way he's enjoying himself At Bellatrix's expense. It's very reminiscent of Dumbledore. In fact, it's kind of reminiscent of Dumbledore in the very next chapter when Dumbledore shows up at the Dursley's place and is like, so yeah, I think they are pretty much friends and that Dumbledore is rubbing off on Snape.

[C]

What's so interesting, because we talked about how Snape like isn't bullying people. Like he bullies students in this chapter. But next chapter, Dumbledore is Bullying the Dursleys 100%. Forcing the glasses.

[D]

They deserve it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, look, everyone deserves it. But at the same time, no. It's interesting to draw the comparison between Snape and Dumbledore as their tactics and their interactions with other adults. Snape and Dumbledore are entwined this whole book. I love that we see a lot more Dumbledore in this book, especially coming off of book five, because we saw next to nothing the Snape facet for this being Snape's book, right. It's named the Half Blood Prince is named after him. Him. Snape is not really in it that much that I can recall. This is what I'm going to be paying a lot of attention to as we read this book. By the time we get to, you know, Flight of the Prince or whatever and Snape reveals it is I. The Half Blood Prince feels a little like kind of afterthoughty kind of thing. So I'm going to pay extra attention to every time we see Snape helping Draco. Every time we can guess that he and Drake Dumbledore have had a conversation. Cause there's probably some really interesting stuff there.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. I feel like Half of Prince there's a lot about Snape. Like we don't have as many scenes of like Snape being all up in Harry's face, but like people are always talking about him, seeing him running into him, like talking about someone else talking with him. Like he sort of. He's the name on everyone's lips in Half Blood Prince.

[E]

He's there through the book. Very similar to Chamber of Secrets, right?

[D]

True.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Well, that was a wonderful setup for this week's mvp. Given the fact that we talk a lot about how Dumbledore is such a chess master. This chapter actually highlights Snape doing some of that and it's very clear he's been inspired by his mentors. So I wanted to ask for this week's mvp, who is the better chess master, Snape or Dumbledore?

[A]

I'm going to give it to Snape because I think I quoted this line earlier. He says I have played my part well. He says that to a mistrusting Bellatrix. Snape is out there on the front lines of playing the parts. That is not easy. And I also think you know you're confident in your abilities when you speak about yourself in a third person person quote. Dumbledore has never stopped trusting Severus Snape. And therein lies my greatest value to the Dark Lord.

[C]

Man couldn't have said it better. Snape is completely singular in his ability to do what needs to be done here. There are very few people and in fact, like I said, singular. Snape is the only one that can double agent Voldemort. The most accomplished Legilimans ever.

[E]

I gotta give it to Dumbledore. Dumbledore is the better chess master because, well, Andrew, you said Snake makes the point. I played my part well, but he's played it well at the direction of Dumbledore. So kudos to Albus, but I think Snape is the much better liar.

[D]

It's fair enough. I think I'm gonna have to give it to Snape though, just because he has to play both sides of the fence on this. So we know there are times where he has to figure out how he's going to adapt Dumbledore's strategy. In the moment when something like an.

[B]

Unbreakable Vow comes up, I'm gonna have to give it to my guy Dumbledore, because I'm just saying he didn't get trapped into promising to do something or his life is forfeit.

[C]

Yeah, Dumbledore would never be so vulnerable.

[B]

He would not double. Dumbledore would not end up making any.

[C]

He would just check out an entire book. Everyone would wonder where he is, why.

[A]

He'S not talking to me, put on.

[E]

A ring and oh man.

[C]

Oh, too soon.

[D]

All right, well, now we're going to get into this week's links line. Mugglecast listeners who are Slug Club members over at patreon.com mugglecast have answered this week's question, which is Snape's childhood home is clearly a little drab. If Snape's home were the subject of a home makeover show, what would it be called?

[A]

Leah said, property. Prince Jesse said, love it or hex it. Kim said, help, I've wrecked my dungeon. Michael said, turning oily haired people's houses into luxury ones. Matthew said, dank dungeons and dead mums. Oof. I don't know if HGTV will go with that. Jared said our new celebrity home Jared. I think this is the same Jared also said 50 shades of black. Carly said. This week on House Elf Handiwork, we're turning this home on spinner's end into a spinner's trend.

[C]

Spinners trend.

[A]

And finally, Rachel said plaster faster. Potion Master. Love it. I read that.

[E]

I'm not going to say what I read that as.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Oh my God.

[E]

I thought please faster. Post your.

[C]

Oh my God.

[A]

Build this house faster. Micah means the links line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show, whether or not you're listening live. We ask a new question every week, so become a member of our community today by going to patreon.com mugglecast and pledging. And if you have any feedback about today's discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to mugglecastmail.com and next week, chapter by chapter, we'll continue with Half Blood Prince. Chapter three Will and Won't Harry will appear in this chapter. Yay. Visit mugglecast.com for quick access to all of the information you need about the show. And if you're looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and what the Hype for more pop culture and real world talk. Now it's time for Kwiz Itch.

[C]

This week's question based on Spinner's End the silk that's made by the Darwin's bark spider is the toughest biological material ever studied by man. What country in the world does the Darwin's bark spider call home? The correct answer was Madagascar. 7% of people with the correct answer did not look this up. So I guess yes, it was a hard one. Oops. But correct answers were submitted by a healthy breeze Count Ravioli, our old friend Dumbledore on Baywatch fidgeting with a lime green bowler. How much wood would a witch duck chuck if a witch duck could chuck wood? I play Fluffy's harp. Insert witty pun here. Julianne Fay King Julian, Laura's previous Umbrella Academy heckler. And now I don't know what to call myself. Please give me ideas. I like to move it. Move it. Nana K and wifed up.

[E]

That's a Madagascar reference, right?

[C]

I like to moog it. Move it. Yeah, move it. Okay, here is next week's Quizzage question. In this chapter, Snape and Narcissa make a grown up version of a pinky promise. The origins of pinky promises started in Japan, where they are known as Yubikiri. According to Yubikiri, what would happen to someone who broke a pinky promise? Interesting tradition. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzic form located on the Mogocast website. Go to mogocast.com quizzage or if you're already on our website, maybe you're checking out transcripts of the Must Listens page. Click on Kwizzitch from the main nav bar.

[A]

Irvin, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. And can you remind everybody where to find your book, which is is out now?

[B]

Yes, please find my book. I mean, pretty much everywhere you find books, you know, bookstores, online, etc. Libraries. But you can find all the [e-mail] and you can find me promoting the book with Wizard Rock and all manner of shenanigans in New York City on October 17th. And also, if you want to listen to me podcast about Harry Potter for three hours at a time, I do have a Harry Potter podcast called the Three Broomsticks that we've had Eric and Andrew on before. Was lots and lots of fun. Fantastic.

[C]

Love it.

[B]

Give that a listen.

[A]

Awesome. Well, congrats on your second Harry Potter book. Now, how did you get domain malfoys.com by the way? That seems like.

[B]

I have no idea. I literally was like, searching domains and I, like searched Malfoy and malfoys.com came up and I was like. I honestly was like, did I misspell Malfoys? I, like went and checked. I was like, surely. And no, it was available for $20 a year. And I was like, well, then, so that's crazy. Malfoys.com. well, because no one ever knows how to spell my last name. So, like, you know, I have a website under my name, but that's no use to anyone when I'm talking.

[C]

I'm gonna look up and see if baywatchdumbledore.com is available. That can be pretty exciting.

[B]

Not a chance. Way too popular website.

[E]

I like how you've called this Malfoy Con 2025.

[B]

I mean, I'm doing three days of Harry Potter activities. It's pretty much a con.

[A]

Thanks everyone, for listening. I'm Andrew.

[C]

I'm Eric.

[E]

I'm Micah.

[D]

I'm Laura.

[B]

And I'm Irvin.

[A]

Bye, everyone.

[D]

Bye, y'. All.

[A]

Sam.