Snape's True Colors (OOTP Chapter 24, Occlumency)

Summary

**Detailed Summary of "MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Re-Read Podcast" Episode
Title: Snape's True Colors (OOTP Chapter 24, Occlumency)
Release Date: April 29, 2025
Hosts: Andrew, Micah, Laura
Guest: Nicole (Slug Club Patron)

---

1. Introduction and Guest Welcome (01:25 - 02:54)

The episode kicks off with Andrew, Micah, and Laura warmly welcoming Nicole, a listener and Slug Club patron, to the discussion. Nicole shares her fandom details, including her favorite books (Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix), favorite movie (Goblet of Fire), Hogwarts house (Slytherin), and Patronus (pheasant). Her enthusiasm sets a positive tone for the episode as the panel prepares to delve into Chapter 24 of Order of the Phoenix, titled "Occlumency."

---

2. Revisiting Previous Discussions (05:23 - 05:55)

The hosts reminisce about their last discussion on Episode 461, "Snape's Secrets," from April 14, 2020. Micah humorously critiques Snape's approach to teaching Harry Occlumency, highlighting the lack of empathy Snape shows towards Harry's drained state post-lessons.

Micah (05:35): "What I don't really think Snape or Dumbledore particularly Dumbledore considered was the effect this was going to have on Harry after lesson."

---

3. Harry's Reluctance to Return to Hogwarts (06:30 - 08:09)

The conversation shifts to Harry's hesitation about returning to Hogwarts, a sentiment rarely expressed in the series. The hosts discuss Sirius Black's struggles during the holidays, emphasizing his isolation and the emotional toll of returning to an empty home tempered by his interactions with Kreacher.

Nicole (07:52): "It sucks."

Laura (08:40): "It's stuck in Grimald Place, a childhood home he tried to leave and never go back to."

---

4. Sirius, Kreacher, and Trust Issues (08:28 - 11:01)

The panel analyzes Sirius's strained relationship with Kreacher and Harry's suspicions about the house-elf's behavior. They debate whether Harry should have confided his doubts about Kreacher to other members of the Order, considering the potential risks of Kreacher's seemingly better mood and odd behavior.

Micah (09:32): "Huge red flag."

Laura (09:57): "Harry should have said something, and it's something that I'm not surprised Harry noticed on a reread."

---

5. Snape vs. Sirius Showdown (11:57 - 15:28)

A heated discussion unfolds around the confrontation between Sirius and Snape. The hosts critique Snape's demeanor and question his suitability as Harry's Occlumency teacher, given his antagonistic relationship with both Sirius and Harry. They highlight the tension stemming from past losses and unresolved conflicts between the two adults.

Micah (12:05): "Honestly, there's a lot in this chapter that we don't get in the movies."

Andrew (12:27): "The two are bickering like exes, and it made me think that these are two people who, in a way, they, like, kind of are exes."

---

6. Teaching Occlumency: Snape's Methods vs. Lupin's Approach (16:28 - 18:37)

The discussion contrasts Snape's harsh teaching methods with Lupin's more compassionate approach from Prisoner of Azkaban. Hosts argue that while Snape may be the most qualified in terms of skill, his lack of empathy and patience hampers effective teaching. They ponder alternative methods Snape could have employed to better support Harry during his Occlumency lessons.

Micah (17:03): "Snape effectively says as much. He's like, I guess it's his joy to be able to delegate, you know, less interesting asks to his staff."

Laura (18:37): "Snape is really like a fish out of water at Grimald Place."

---

7. Dumbledore's Role and Oversight (45:54 - 50:46)

The hosts delve into Dumbledore's decision-making, questioning his lack of oversight regarding Snape's Occlumency lessons. They criticize Dumbledore for not ensuring Harry's well-being post-lessons and discuss the potential consequences of Snape's solitary approach. The conversation underscores the recurring theme of Dumbledore withholding information and leaving Harry to navigate challenges largely on his own.

Laura (57:20): "As a parent in 2025, the fact that like Harry was alone with Snape, all this goes down and Snape just sends him on his way. It's like, why was no one else there?"

---

8. Foreshadowing and Major Reveals (52:49 - 55:58)

Nicole highlights key foreshadowing elements, such as Snape's admission of being a double agent and hints towards Voldemort's awareness of the Horcrux connection with Harry. The hosts connect these revelations to future plot developments, emphasizing the strategic placement of clues within Chapter 24.

Nicole (53:06): "This is like, probably the most obvious hints we get for it."

Micah (55:58): "We know Kreacher has been feeding intel to Bellatrix. They're already planning what it is they're going to do."

---

9. Audience Interaction and Listener Contributions (61:19 - 66:15)

The episode incorporates humorous and engaging listener responses from Patreon members, sharing "wrong answers" to what could make Voldemort happiest. These contributions add a lighthearted element to the discussion, reflecting the hosts' connection with their audience.

Katie (61:43): "A cute new two-piece swimsuit and matching dollar flip flops that he got on sale from Old Navy."

Rachel (62:27): "A life-size cutout of Dumbledore in his apartment."

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10. Concluding Remarks and Teasers for Next Episode (66:15 - End)

The hosts wrap up the episode by thanking Nicole and encouraging listeners to support the podcast via Patreon. They tease the next episode, which will cover Chapter 25, "The Beetle at Bay," and briefly mention other related podcasts like What the Hype and Millennial. The episode concludes with a playful quiz segment, engaging listeners to participate in future interactions.

Andrew (67:00): "Thanks everyone, for listening. I'm Andrew. I'm Micah. I'm Laura. And I'm Nicole. Bye, y'all."

---

Notable Quotes

• Micah (05:35): "What I don't really think Snape or Dumbledore particularly considered was the effect this was going to have on Harry after lesson."

• Nicole (07:52): "It sucks."

• Laura (08:40): "It's stuck in Grimald Place, a childhood home he tried to leave and never go back to."

• Micah (09:32): "Huge red flag."

• Nicole (09:57): "Harry should have said something, and it's something that I'm not surprised Harry noticed on a reread."

• Andrew (12:27): "The two are bickering like exes, and it made me think that these are two people who, in a way, they, like, kind of are exes."

• Micah (17:03): "Snape effectively says as much. He's like, I guess it's his joy to be able to delegate, you know, less interesting asks to his staff."

• Micah (55:58): "We know Kreacher has been feeding intel to Bellatrix. They're already planning what it is they're going to do."

• Nicole (53:06): "This is like, probably the most obvious hints we get for it."

---

Conclusion

In this episode of MuggleCast, the hosts provide an in-depth analysis of Chapter 24, "Occlumency," from Order of the Phoenix. Through lively discussion, they examine the complex dynamics between Harry, Snape, and Sirius, critique Snape's teaching methods, and uncover foreshadowing elements that hint at future revelations in the series. Audience interactions and thoughtful insights from their guest, Nicole, enrich the conversation, making it both informative and engaging for Harry Potter enthusiasts.

---

Stay tuned for the next episode where the hosts will explore Chapter 25, "The Beetle at Bay," and continue their journey through the Wizarding World alongside the upcoming Harry Potter TV show!

Transcript

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[Micah]

Is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need, have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone.

[Laura]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Andrew]

Welcome to mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Nicole]

I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

We are your Harry Potter friends talking about the books, the movies, the theme parks, the forthcoming TV show. So make sure you follow our show in your favorite podcast app so you never miss a new episode. And this week we'll be discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 24 Occlumency. And to help us with today, today's discussion, we're joined by one of our listeners and Slug Club patrons, Nicole. Welcome, Nicole, to the show.

[Laura]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrew]

Yeah, you're welcome. Can we get your fandom id?

[Laura]

Sure thing. So, favorite book is a tie between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix. Favorite movie I have Goblet of Fire right now. Could be because we just did a rewatch of that one. Hogwarts house is Slytherin. Patronus is a pheasant. And for my favorite portrait, I said Sir Cadogan because we get to see him three times. So that's fun.

[Andrew]

Gets a lot of attention. Yeah. Well, I'm glad we have you on While we're going chapter by chapter through one of your favorite books. I'm excited. Yeah. Thanks again for joining us and thanks for your support on Patreon. We really appreciate it. We actually were in a Slug Club hangout on our Patreon the other day when I was looking at upcoming co hosts and you were next in the queue. So for the first time ever, I was like live on Zoom. I was like, nicole, you want to come on this week? And she was like, yeah, perfect timing.

[Nicole]

Heck yeah.

[Andrew]

Well, listeners, if you love Mugglecast 2 and want to help us keep things running as smoothly as the night bus on a countryside road. I don't know if that works, Micah, but visit patreon.com mugglecast and pledge today. You'll get instant access to two bonus Mugglecast episodes every month, plus ad free episodes of Mugglecast, a new physical gift every year, the chance to co host the show one day like Nicole is today and so much more. We could not do this without you and we appreciate you more than Serious and Snape. Appreciate a good dig at each other. Now that one works well.

[Micah]

I figured with the countryside road. It's smoother than the rest of the roads that the night bus drives on, but I see your point.

[Andrew]

Yeah, country road. Take me home, Laura. What's going what's coming up in Bonus Mugglecast this week?

[Nicole]

So this week in Bonus Mugglecast, we're going to be doing an expanded, deeper dive map that discussion. So specifically, we've each picked scenes from Order of the Phoenix that did not make it into the movies that we want to see make it into the TV show. And we have some very specific opinions about how we think these things should be shot, which actors should be in them, what the tone should be. So we're going to talk through all of it together this week in Bonus. Definitely head on over to Patreon to check that that out.

[Andrew]

Awesome. Other great ways to support us, you can pick up [e-mail] I'm wearing the muggle cap today. Micah's wearing our 19th anniversary t shirt available in the Overstock store. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. You can send an owl to a friend about the show if they need some Harry Potter friends in their life. And then I just mentioned the Overstock store. Go to mugglemillennial.etsy.com and you can pick up the 19 Years Later T shirt While supplies last. We printed those for patrons and we have some extras. So now is the time to grab them, because once they are gone, they are truly gone. And we loved creating this shirt because it's a special year for Mugglecast. 19 years later, it's. It's our epilogue year. All right, time for chapter by chapter. And this week we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 24 Occlumency. And Eric still prepared a little look back for us. The last time we discussed this chapter was on episode 461 of Mugglecast on April 14, 2020. And the episode was titled Snape's Secrets. So let's go back in time and listen to that now.

[Nicole]

Three turns should do a living.

[Andrew]

Good luck. What the. Episode 461.

[Micah]

What I don't really think Snape or Dumbledore particularly Dumbledore considered was the effect this was going to have on Harry after lesson. Right?

[Andrew]

Yeah, his poor brain.

[Micah]

He's drained after this encounter with Snape and Snape doesn't do anything. Like, Snape probably could whip up a cocktail potion for him. He'd be feeling really good afterwards.

[Andrew]

Or Dumbledore could have said, don't do that and let. Let Harry feel the effects of this. So he's more prepared. I know, let Harry suffer. Let Harry suffer more. Snape should have at least given him like a, like a head massage. That could have been a little helpful. You know when you're getting your hair cut and they wash your hair for you and then they give you like a head massage while they. While they wash your hair? That's what Snape should have done for Harry.

[Nicole]

Can you imagine walking in on that scene and being like, okay, mysterious thing time.

[Micah]

Well, our chapter begins back at Grimald Place. So we've gone from St. Mungo's back to Grimald Place. And I wanted to start the discussion really around Harry because he is very hesitant about going back to Hogwarts. And little does he know he's about to get another reason to dread it even more. But has there ever been a time that we can recall that Harry didn't want to go back to school?

[Andrew]

No, not in the series so far. And I just, I kind of think it speaks to just how serious things are getting at Hogwarts and within the Wizarding World.

[Micah]

Yeah, and things are definitely winding down at Grimald Place. It's noted that Sirius is becoming far less cheerful because not only are the holidays over, but as we just said, the kids are going back to school and that means an empty house for good old Serious. And the last time we encountered him, and I know he was interrupted, it seemed like, during a bit of a bender when the kids showed up that night. But this is hard for him. I mean, he's clearly struggling with the isolation and it's kind of unfortunate. Snape throws it in his face in this chapter, too.

[Andrew]

A lot of us experience this type of feeling maybe every year, multiple times a year. The End of Holiday Blues, End of Vacation Blues. You spend some quality time with friends and family and now you're kind of going back to the real world and it sucks. This is what Sirius is experiencing here.

[Nicole]

Yeah, well, in Sirius's real world sucks. Yeah, it really does. You know, for everyone else, it's, I have to go back to work, I have to go back to school. I have to go back to responsibility. And to Sirius, it's, I have to go back to basically just being a placeholder in grim old place.

[Andrew]

Aww.

[Nicole]

It sucks.

[Andrew]

Placeholder, place.

[Laura]

I think the phrase, like childhood trauma gets overused a lot. But in this case, poor Sirius is stuck in the childhood home he tried to leave and never go back to.

[Micah]

It's a really great point. And he's stuck there with Kreacher. And Kreacher has been MIA for parts of the last couple of chapters. But he does make an appearance. He was up in the attic. Sirius found him doing creature things up there. Harry seems, though, to be pretty suspicious of Kreacher. He seems to almost have a sixth sense as it relates to him. And he's hesitant to let Sirius know about this. But I'm wondering if he should have shared some of his suspicions with maybe another member of the Order, because Kreacher seems to be in a little bit of a better mood. It's noted. And he's staring down Harry at times.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Which should be a red flag.

[Micah]

Huge red flag.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Do you think part of it Harry's being able to read Kreacher stems from his relationship that he already has with Dobby? Cause Dobby has already been up to some mischievous behavior in the series so far.

[Laura]

I think it's classic Harry where he just notices the house else. Like the lesser creatures in the Harry Potter world, Harry always has an eye out for them. So it's kind of. I feel like Harry should have said something, and it's something that I'm not surprised Harry noticed on a reread.

[Nicole]

Yeah, same, I think, too. This all really speaks to the fact that a lot of people who are really, really embedded in wizarding society and don't tend to question why things are the way they are, because that's just all they've ever known, tend to underestimate magical creatures. And we see this with Sirius and Creature. Sirius makes a lot of assumptions about what Kreacher can and can't do. Harry tries to correct him at one point, doesn't he? When Sirius is like, no, he can't. He can't go talk to anyone else. And Harry's like, well, Dobby came and talked to me. He had to punish himself afterwards, but he still did it. So I think there's also just a massive lack of understanding amongst wizards about how house elves operate. And I think they make a lot of assumptions about that, which in this case, proves fatal for Sirius.

[Micah]

Yeah. And Kreacher's certainly cutting some corners by going to Bellatrix. As we'll later learn, she's no longer Bellatrix Black, she's Bellatrix Lestrange, but still part of the family. And Kreacher is more than willing, to your point, Laura, to likely betray the oath that he has to Sirius. But we don't know. He could be punishing himself, and he likely is. Well, speaking of individuals in Sirius's home that he really does not like, we learn in this chapter that Professor Snape has shown up and he wants to see Harry, and we get the classic Sirius vs Snape showdown. And we're going to do a bonus Mugglecast where we're talking about maxing something. We don't get this in the movie.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Micah]

And I would have loved to have seen Gary Oldman and Alan Rickman go at each other in this particular scene.

[Nicole]

Yeah. Honestly, there's a lot in this chapter that we don't get in the movies. And, I mean, even the way occlamancy is covered in the movies, I don't really feel like it fully, like, connects all the threads narratively. So that'll be something I'm looking forward to seeing redone on the show.

[Andrew]

Micah, you do have a note here that made me think of something else you said. The two are bickering like exes, and it made me think that these are two people who, in a way, they, like, kind of are exes, sort of, because they're still tied to one another. They're still stuck with one another. These two have been enemies for years and years, and they both lost people they loved. James for Sirius, Lily for Snape. And I think that some of the tension still comes from that, which is really sad.

[Micah]

Yeah, it's a really good point, Andrew. And they're looking at any opportunity to throw shade in each other's direction. And so that made me wonder, you know, Harry walks in on this and he almost would have been better to just turn around and walk right back out of the kitchen. Because who's really the adult here? Honestly? I think it's Harry in this moment.

[Andrew]

I think it's Harry, too.

[Nicole]

Yeah, agreed.

[Andrew]

It's definitely not Snape. It might be serious, but, yeah, I think I put Harry in first as well.

[Micah]

Especially a little bit later on in this scene where Harry is physically getting between the two of them.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Breaking up the fight or trying to.

[Laura]

It was giving me a child of divorce parents vibes, having to get in the middle.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Andrew, you said maybe it's serious. Well, I think he's being a good, responsible godfather to Harry because he's sitting there in the room with him as Snape is letting Harry know that he is gonna be taking Occlumency lessons this year. And Harry has no idea what this even means. So the fact that there is an adult in the room, I think is a good thing.

[Nicole]

Yeah, yeah, agreed. Like, a parent or guardian should always be present for this kind of thing. But we also see later during Harry's first Occlumency lesson that Snape really relishes the opportunity to get Harry alone and bully him one on one. So, yeah, I think Sirius was right to join Harry here anytime.

[Andrew]

There's two big power players in the Harry Potter series interacting with one another, Sirius and Snape. In this example, it's just like on the edge of my seat reading that I can't get enough of. Forget the kids. I'm all about the adults in the series.

[Nicole]

Yeah, well, Snape is really like a fish out of water at Grimald Place, too.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

Like, he's in the Order, but I think most of the Order is looking sideways at him. I think there's a lot of suspicion of Snape. And he's also obviously not very well liked. So anytime he shows up at Grimald Place, you know that sparks are gonna fly.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

But arguably, he's doing some of the hardest work of the Order.

[Nicole]

Yeah, no one knows about it.

[Andrew]

But don't tell Sirius that. Sirius ain't gonna be happy about that.

[Micah]

Well, Sirius does have a really good question for Snape. He asks why Dumbledore couldn't teach Harry Occlumencie. And look, Dumbledore knows that these two, Harry and Snape, do not like each other.

[Andrew]

Ooh, they're gonna tussle.

[Micah]

He is forcing Harry to do something that he knows he's gonna hate without really giving him a whole Lot of background as to why.

[Andrew]

So Lupin does explain to Harry. Before leaving him at the night bus or after they get off the night bus, Lupin says to Harry, I know you don't like Snape, but he is a superb Occlumens. And he also encourages Harry to work hard at it. So I'm wondering if that's why. I mean, this is like, we know Snape is really good at this, so. And Lupin is reminding Harry of this, so I don't know. That's enough for me.

[Micah]

He's also a superb asshole. So you gotta kind of to juggle the two.

[Andrew]

Does Lupin feel that way?

[Micah]

Yeah, I think he does probably on some level.

[Nicole]

I am also gonna point out, and this comes from the Harry Potter Wiki fandom wiki. Um, Albus Dumbledore was also an exceptional Aquamans, having been one of the few to be capable of repelling Voldemort's legilimency.

[Andrew]

So the difference is I'm busy.

[Nicole]

Snape effectively says as much. He's like, I guess it's his joy to be able to delegate, you know, less interesting asks to his staff. Yeah. But to be fair, I think we do find out that Dumbledore does not want to open up the potential of Voldemort penetrating Harry's mind and realizing how close the two of them are.

[Laura]

Yes and all that's great, but it's like once again we have Dumbledore who's brilliant. Communicate a smidge here and we would have been avoided a lot of problems. Or I guess he could have sent Lupin as his proxy. Like put Lupin in there. Someone else in the room besides Snape. Serious, Harry, just another party.

[Micah]

Yeah, well, we're going to talk a little bit about this, but it's also the fact that Dumbledore will likely have provided a much softer touch to this whole experience for Harry than somebody like Snape.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it would have been nice to have, let's say Lupin sitting there being kind of like a. Not a teacher's assistant, but what's like when a teacher's being observed in the classroom. Kind of like what we see with Umbridge, but a far better, you know, teacher sitting there. Lupin could sit there and kind of silently encourage Snape to properly educate Harry on how to practice Occlumency.

[Nicole]

Yeah, I do feel like of all the Marauders, Lupin is the best one to try and temper Snape. I feel like Snape is the most responsive to him. So. Yeah, that probably would have been better.

[Micah]

Yeah. A couple of interesting nuggets come out of this conversation fight between Snape and Sirius. The first is that Sirius refers to Snape as Lucius's lap dog and I'm wondering is there some history here that we don't know about that he would think that Snape would basically be subservient in a way to one of the Malfoys?

[Nicole]

Well I think if I recall correctly Lucius was older than Snape so he would have been a few years ahead at Hogwarts. So who knows, Lucius might have been the leader of some of the first student body to join up with the Death Eaters and Snape could have been very taken with that idea. So it could be referring to some of that, you know, schoolboy drama that they all had together. But I also wonder if he's if Sirius is implicitly accusing Snape of feeding intel to Lucius. Because we already know Lucius exploits his wealth and connections to get what he wants. Like he bought the entire Slytherin Quidditch Team Nimbus 2001's a couple of years ago. He sat on the board of governors and heavily influenced the school. It just feels like if Snape wanted a way to kind of put his thumb on the scale at Hogwarts, he could do that via Lucius if Lucius felt like he was going to get something out of the deal. So I think that's what Sirius is implying here obviously does not end up being the case.

[Micah]

Part of me thinks that it's a convenient writing device to then transition into Snape saying well speaking of dogs, yeah.

[Andrew]

He does bring that up.

[Micah]

Lucius recognized your dumb behind on the train platform Sirius. So yeah, we, we knew that from Draco's comments earlier on in the, in the book.

[Andrew]

Well Sirius doesn't trust either Snape or Lucius, so if he thinks that Snape and Lucius are associating in some way, be it through the Death Eaters or however else, I could definitely understand why Sirius is trying to tie them two together. And he's also, he's kind of grasping for straws because Snape does have the more important role in the Order and Sirius is trying to convince himself that Snape isn't the right choice for the job. So yeah, he's going to accuse him of being Lucius's lapdog.

[Micah]

So it's now time for the kids to head off to Hogwarts and there are some parting words between Harry and Sirius. And Harry receives a really important item from Sirius that he makes note that he's not going to use because he doesn't want to put his godfather in any kind of difficult situation. But there's a really great quote, Nicole. I'm wondering if you can read it here about how Harry was feeling about this particular situation.

[Laura]

Sure thing. So Harry had an unpleasant constricted sensation in his chest. He did not want to say goodbye to Sirius. He had a bad feeling about the parting. He didn't know when they would see each other. And it felt. And he felt it was incumbent upon him to say something to Sirius to stop him doing anything stupid.

[Andrew]

This probably should have been one of the biggest red flags the first time that we read it. Harry had an unpleasant sensation in his chest. I don't remember reading this part the first time and if it felt like a red flag to me, but major foreshadow alert.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Micah]

And Laura, you had a comment here about the two way mirror.

[Nicole]

Oh, yeah, yeah. How tragic it is the way that the two way mirror played out, or rather didn't play out because Harry ultimately doesn't end up discovering its usefulness until it's already too late.

[Micah]

Yeah. And it's actually also noted that Sirius is described as being grim in this particular goodbye as well. And I thought that that was another piece of foreshadowing that really any time that Sirius is described in this book, there is some sort of character trait that alludes to his death or something happens to him that, you know, I'm thinking of like when 13 sit down to die and the first to rise is the first to die. Like that happens at one point. So there are all these little kind of hints that we're getting that I don't think things are going to work out too well for our buddy Sirius.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Because on one hand you could be reading it like, oh, it is the end of Holiday Blues. The family and friends are leaving, like I brought up earlier, but really there's a double meeting going on here.

[Nicole]

Yeah. And we also have to remember that Sirius is effectively still a prisoner. You know, he. He got out of Azkaban, so he's free. But the reality is he can't. He can't go anywhere else. He can't risk being seen. So as Nicole pointed out earlier, he is literally stuck in his childhood trauma. It's a prison.

[Andrew]

And Becky, who's listening live right now, is adding in a couple of comments concerning the Snape Lucius relationship. She reminds us that Umbridge said during Snape's class inspections that Lucius always spoke highly of you, Severus, and they were for a time on good terms.

[Micah]

All right, well, great catch by Becky there. Well, for. I believe it's the first time we're going to take the night bus to Hogwarts. So different mode of transportation for the trio. And I thought this was a nice Connecting the threads to Prisoner of Azkaban where Harry inadvertently jumps on the night bus to get to the Leaky Cauldron. But Nicole, you had some notes here about the. The Knight Bus and its connection to Prisoner of Azkaban.

[Laura]

Yeah, so we get to meet Stan again. So we first saw him in Prisoner of Azkaban. So we have that classic Prisoner of Azkaban order or the Phoenix, like link. And then, I don't know, reading it again this today, it was kind of sad. It's like, oh, the next time we see him, he's under the imperious curse, working for Voldemort.

[Nicole]

Aw, yeah, poor guy.

[Laura]

And he was just trying to impress some Vila in the last book. I mean, can't catch a break.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's really nice seeing these callbacks to earlier books thinking like, there's so much magic established by book five and so many aspects of the wizarding world established that to see a little cameo, if you will, by something like the Knight Bus is a lot of fun.

[Micah]

It'd be great to max that in the TV show without a talking head.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah, probably. Yeah. The talking head, for anybody who doesn't know, was an Alfonso Cuaron touch, the director of Movie three. So we'll see if they carry that over. Yeah, it was fun. I liked it.

[Micah]

But did they also show up at the. Was it the Leaky Cauldron or the Three Broomsticks?

[Andrew]

Right.

[Micah]

Or were those different shrunken heads that were. That told Ron and Hermione they couldn't come in. It's when Harry sneaks in to overhear.

[Nicole]

I don't remember.

[Micah]

But anyway, before we get to the first acclimancy lesson, one other thing just wanted to touch on was the very awkward Harry asking Cho out on a first date. And to be fair, Cho kind of asked him out initially. Like, he just. His head is like, you know, I don't fault the guy. I know he's in his teenage years, but he's got a lot going on and this is probably the last thing on his mind.

[Nicole]

Yeah, I think that's fair because, I mean, he's already a teenager, so I think he's predisposed to be like, dumb and awkward about these things. But I mean, yeah, he literally has the fate of the world on his shoulders and he's one of the only ones who knows it right now. So I'll give him a pass for this one, but it was pretty obvious. Pretty big fumble especially.

[Micah]

But he recovered.

[Nicole]

He did. He did recover for sure, as he always does.

[Laura]

I read again this morning and I cringe. But then I have a 13 year old stepson and I don't wanna blow up his text on the, on the podcast. He will, he will listen. But it's accurately awkward.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And that's, you know, that's life at that age.

[Laura]

It is not picking up the hints.

[Micah]

All right, well, I want everybody on the panel. Clear your minds, clear them out.

[Andrew]

Because I'm bad at meditating.

[Micah]

Well. Well then I can't promise that Snape's not going to penetrate your mind and do terrible things to you. Well, we're all going to try and clear our minds. Take a quick break and we'll be right back after these messages.

[Andrew]

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[Nicole]

Go to your happy price. Priceline.

[Andrew]

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[Micah]

So Snape gives Harry a little bit of a cover story for the fact that he needs to spend time with him to take these Occlumency lessons. He says that if anybody asks, he's to tell them that he is taking remedial Potions. So right off the bat, Snape has another way to demean Harry and make him look bad in front of his peers. We actually see this come to life too.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So I understand why Snape is saying tell people you're taking remedial Potions, but Harry should have just made up something else entirely. Just made up another excuse so he didn't come off like he was a total idiot when it comes to Potions and Snape is spending extra time with them.

[Micah]

That's fair.

[Nicole]

I feel like this is, I don't know, such like a nosy, like, school thing where like everyone would be so in each other's business that they would notice that Harry's going to Snape for private tutoring. Like Hogwarts is a big place. They should have just been cool about it. Just like don't say anything.

[Andrew]

Well, yeah, you're saying Harry didn't have to tell people anything?

[Nicole]

Anything. Yeah, yeah.

[Micah]

The most important person here though is likely Umbridge and it's probably something she would believe. So I think that's. Yeah, that's probably why it works. I'm not saying that it's nice, but it fits.

[Nicole]

Yeah, I mean he could have also said it was just detention.

[Micah]

Like she probably would have believed that too.

[Nicole]

And with how drained and miserable Harry is after that, it would have tracked.

[Micah]

Did want to do a quick name origin here for Occlumency.

[Andrew]

Wow.

[Micah]

So the oclo and occlumency comes from the Latin akludere, which means to close up or to block off. So it fits perfectly for what Harry is going to attempt to do in this chapter. So let's talk about this whole idea of penetrating a 15 year old child's mind by an adult professor who has nothing but disdain for him. I'll start by asking the question, is Snape the most qualified to teach Harry Occlumency given that he himself has spent years closing off his mind to Voldemort?

[Laura]

I think besides Dumbledore at that school right now, I don't. Who else could teach Harry?

[Andrew]

Oh yeah, and I just want to remind y'all that Lupin felt like he is uniquely qualified to teach him based on his skills. Now I know we're debating teaching and that's where a third party could have come in to help like moderate the lesson, I suppose.

[Nicole]

Yeah, I think the operative word here is hairy. So is Snape qualified to Teach Hairy Occlumency. I think given the enormous conflict of interest here, I would say the answer to that question is no. Might Snape be the best person to teach Occlumency in general? Probably.

[Micah]

It's kind of like the same thing with Potions. It's just. It comes down to his style. Right. He kind of lacks the sensitivity and the patience that's needed for something like this. He's much more procedural in nature and I think given what we're about to experience, he's just not the right fit. And I would go so far as to say Snape is the poster child for, for repressed rage and bitterness. And I have a hard time believing that this man who can't say a sentence without sneering is going to help a 15 year old process trauma and suppress mental invasion when he can't even suppress his own sarcasm.

[Andrew]

But I think that, you know, maybe this is a little too obvious. But from a storytelling perspective, having Snape teach Harry makes sense because Harry is going to get Snape's worst memory in a couple of chapters.

[Micah]

I agree with you. I think he is the most qualified just based on the fact that he has been closing off his mind to Voldemort for years.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

But there's a lot here to unpack.

[Nicole]

You know, I was kind of wondering if there's some twisted logic at play here, because, Micah, you raise a really good point. Snape, honestly, kind of like Phineas Nigelis, we just called this out last week, can be kind of a diva. He's kind of a little performance artist and I think he kind of thrives on that attention and he enjoys giving people so much crap. And I wonder if part of that is because it's the only emotional outlet that he has, life. And it's maybe the only way he can make sure that he's fully capable to shut down and have no emotion when it counts.

[Andrew]

Do you think Snape wanted to be a theater kid? Probably. Or was he a theater kid?

[Nicole]

Well, I think if he.

[Andrew]

Gravity.

[Nicole]

I think if he had been given the chance, he could have been.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

He's so dramatic. He really is. I think the thing that's getting called out here is that, yes, this was very clearly set up as a storytelling device to allow us to get that moment. But if they simply choose Snape to do this for the sake of conflict, you could kind of argue that's bad writing. If you can't find a way for that to happen more organically. If it's like, once again, Dumbledore is like, oh, sorry, can't be bothered here, Severus. You do it like, how many times do we have to tell you, old man? Like, Dumbledore does this a lot. He withholds so much from Harry and then every time he's like, oh, I probably just should have told you.

[Laura]

Yeah, a couple things. So it's always like the. Even reading it now with the way Snape treats Harry, I almost want to be like, okay, you were a kid. Please get over it. Your first love didn't work out. It's fine, we're adults.

[Andrew]

But always, always, always.

[Laura]

Yeah, always. It's a little, little much. And it kind of reminded me. Like, I played softball in college and it gave me vibes of one softball coach in college and she was in her 30s. I'm imagining same age as Snape. And there was definitely like a lot of picking on some players and I was like, I feel like it's. There's some issues. Like you felt like you didn't get your dues. You're going to take it out on these young women. So it gave me strong vibes towards that.

[Andrew]

So, yeah.

[Nicole]

Yeah, I think you're right, too. And also the fact that he's projecting his anger at a dead man onto.

[Laura]

Harry on a child who wasn't there. Nothing to do with this. So, I mean, Dumbledore gave you a job. I wish. I don't know, I guess you had to move the plot forward. He's got to be. Has to hate Harry. But it's a frustrating reread, definitely.

[Micah]

And I also think a major part of this is that Snape sees James every time that he looks at Harry. And I don't think that you can necessarily teach somebody to guard their mind when you can barely stand the side of them.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Mm.

[Andrew]

I also wonder, and this might be a bit of a crackpot theory, but I wonder if Snape is partially so angsty about these lessons because he does pull a few memories out of his mind before teaching Harry to prevent Harry from seeing anything. Is he angsty because he's kind of. He no longer has these memories of Lily for, you know, like an hour. It's almost like they didn't even happen. I don't know exactly how this all works, but I wonder if it, like, gives him anxiety to be separated from these memories, these good memories.

[Nicole]

Interesting. You know what I think is so interesting about that is that this is kind of Snape's tell that he actually thinks Harry is more talented and smarter than he lets on to. The fact that he was like, just in case, let me take all the memories that I would not want Potter to see and put them in a pen sieve so that I'm protected. So Snape talks a big game about Harry being a Dunderhead, but I don't think that's what he actually thinks of him.

[Micah]

Yeah, he almost throws a compliment his way too when the Imperious Curse comes up and yeah, says, you know, you were able to somewhat resist that this won't be all that different. So.

[Andrew]

So he was teaching them. It's like, it's like how you fight the Imperious Curse. I'm sort of kidding. Is it possible too that maybe Snape was planning on being a nicer, better teacher, but then the situation with Sirius went down and he still has a bad taste in his mouth from that?

[Micah]

Maybe. I just don't think that he wants to be in this situation. Neither party wants to be in the situation. And I think Snape is just looking at this like, albus, why are you making me why?

[Laura]

And I wonder. So Dumbledore, you know, we find out did not want to teach Harry because he didn't want Voldemort to know how close they were. I mean, poor Snape. He's the one who's like, you know, the double agent here. So if something goes wrong and Voldemort can see through Harry, then he's gonna. The jig is up.

[Nicole]

So that's. That is the point. Nicole, thank you for saying that. Because if Dumbledore is so worried that Voldemort's going to be able to penetrate Harry's mind, shouldn't he be worried about the same thing happening with Snape? Like how is he going to explain that to Voldemort?

[Andrew]

I don't. I guess it just speaks to how Snape is a world class acclimans.

[Micah]

I would have said something else after world class, but world class ass. Yeah. So just a couple of other things here. We know that Occlumency requires a calm mind and emotional control. And Snape's idea of teaching was throwing Harry into the deep end and then mocking him when he floundered. So again, this is very similar to how he teaches Harry Potions and that that actually comes up in this chapter too. He criticizes Harry for just kind of not following directions. But in this particular case, I don't really think he's giving Harry a whole lot of direction or guidance.

[Andrew]

No, he's not. It. They just dive headfirst into these quote unquote lessons and it is bizarre that Snape isn't trying to teach him more. He basically just gives him, like, a textbook definition of what it means to practice occlumency. And then he's like, all right, one, two. And then throws a spell out of like.

[Nicole]

And he just says, clear your mind.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

Okay. Like, I don't.

[Andrew]

As if clears his mind.

[Nicole]

Right. Well, also, like, are you going to teach me a mindfulness exercise? Like, what are we doing here, man?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Are. Aren't you going to load up your Headspace app and walk me through some meditations?

[Micah]

And there's a huge trust. Trust issue between the two of them. Right. And you have to remember that occlumency is about letting somebody into your mind. I mean, it's not necessarily about letting somebody in. You're trying to prevent them from getting in. But I. I do think, like, there's a level of vulnerability here in terms of Harry needing to trust somebody. And in this case, it's just like letting your worst enemy be your therapist. Like, that's the best comparison that I can.

[Andrew]

That's a good way to look at it. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. If Micah was my therapist, I would be like, why are you giving me advice? I hate you. It's a joke. It's a joke.

[Micah]

Well, everybody was kind of talking a little bit about this earlier. What if Harry kind of stumbled into the wrong memory during a lesson? What do we think would have happened here? Nicole, you were mentioning this earlier with. There's just so much that could have been uncovered, not just by Harry, maybe even potentially by Voldemort. You know, so this is risky in addition to being cruel and maybe a.

[Andrew]

Reason why Snape doesn't actually want to teach Harry because he doesn't want it getting into his mind. He does take the memories out. And we should talk about that, too. Like, what were the memories that he takes out before this lesson? And how broad are these memories? If we haven't done an episode dedicated to retrieving memories, we definitely should have that discussion. But one memory must have been, of course, around Lily. Maybe another memory was his deal with Dumbledore, Although that kind of ties into Lily and then probably James bullying Snape, as we see in the Pensieve.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

Yeah. I mean, and probably. Probably a lot of stuff about his dad, too. Like, I know we see some memories of Snape's dad in the Worst Memory chapter, so there's probably some childhood stuff in there as well, which is also going to include Lily. Yeah, she's a big part of it.

[Micah]

I've always been curious though. Like the defense mechanism, it's not necessarily intended for you to then penetrate the other person's mind. Right. Like it's just to block out that person from getting into yours.

[Andrew]

Right, yeah.

[Micah]

So it is interesting that Harry is able to then get inside Snape's head. We can talk more about it when we get to that chapter though, I guess.

[Andrew]

Well. And he puts his head into the pensieve.

[Micah]

Oh, is that what it is?

[Nicole]

That. Yeah, I think that's what it is.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Because Snape goes to take care of something in Slytherin House and that's when.

[Micah]

He'S like where the movie messes with my recollection because. Yeah, that. Okay, that makes sense.

[Nicole]

In the movie, you're right. Harry does reverse legitimates Legilimans in him.

[Andrew]

Doesn't he fall to the floor and like get out or something like that?

[Nicole]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Arguably kind of a better way for it to play out.

[Laura]

More dramatic for sure.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Let's talk a little bit about Dumbledore in all of this because he is giving Snape permission to mentally invade Harry, exposing some of his most private memories, leaving him mentally and physically exhausted. And I want to talk more about the mental and physical exhaustion as well because that is important in all this too. It. I mean, there's a lot of comparisons that we can make here. I think we touched on it the last time we did this chapter. But I mean, is this Dumbledore's? Is it up to him to be allowing this to happen? I guess Sirius gave the permission. But what are everybody's thoughts here?

[Nicole]

Yeah. And it is interesting to me how carefully Snape chooses his words when Harry's asking him, like, why are we doing this? Why did Dumbledore choose you? Why can't he tell me what we're doing? And Snape, even there seems to be cautious about how much info to give Harry because they know that Voldemort probably knows about the mind connection at this point. So I guess the decision probably got made with that in mind that Harry may not be in control of this 100% of the time. So they had no choice but to make this decision for him. Which sucks.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And don't you think that by entering Harry's mind as deeply as he does, we see Harry flip through a lot of different memories. Do you think maybe that this is the way to teach somebody? Because you kind of put them. You back them into a corner and they're so mad and repulsed that that's when they figure out how to shut. Shut you down.

[Nicole]

It really seems like it's a matter of will, because I remember when Harry was resisting the Imperious Curse, it was just Harry mentally thinking, no, I don't want to do that. So is it the same thing here where it's just like, la la la la la. I can't hear you. Get out of my head.

[Andrew]

Well, it kind of reminds me of being able to cast a Patronus. You have to think of your happiest memory here. You have to be reminded of some of your most private memories to learn the art of shutting people out.

[Micah]

So I'm actually glad that you brought that up, Andrew, because I think there's a lot of comparisons we can make here between Lupin teaching Harry how to cast a Patronus and Snape trying to teach Harry Occlumency. Again, pulling on the threads between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix, both instances, Harry is left mentally exhausted. Right. But Lupin at least teaches him over time. And I understand there wasn't like a pressing need for Harry to have to learn how to cast a Patronus, whereas in this case, there is a need for him to learn how to shut off his mind. But Lupin takes care of Harry after the fact. Right. He gives him chocolate.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Whereas in this case, Snape just like do anything. See you next time. Yeah, basically, like. But it. But I. Is. I do think there. There is something there.

[Laura]

I mean, the teaching method isn't totally. I mean, like, thinking about like, coaching styles, teaching method, the hard. The hard ass. It can work for some people. So like, I don't. It's not the worst. But comparing as Lupin, we know Lupin worked well with Harry, so maybe Snape should have brought some like, candy or I don't know, something.

[Nicole]

Throw.

[Laura]

Throw a bone.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

Yeah. Well. And I mean, sorry if this already got called out, but Lupin, he makes sure to take care of Harry. Like, gives him the chocolate to make sure that he can recover. I'm thinking Harry should have been allowed to recover in the hospital wing after his Occlumency lessons. Like Madame Pomfrey should have been bringing him. I forget the name of the potion. Like the pepper up. Pepper up something or other to like give him energy, make him feel better. Rejuvenate him.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

Couldn't Snape do that?

[Laura]

He's Potions Master.

[Nicole]

Right, Exactly.

[Laura]

Help him out.

[Micah]

Like our. Our flashback from earlier in the. The episode we talked about that how Snape could have given him something. So just a couple of other things here that I thought were worth Calling out. You know, we've talked a lot about how these lessons actually make Carrie more vulnerable. See the end of the chapter. And I also think there's something to be said as we're talking about kind of comparing and contrasting Lupin and Snape, that you can't expect Harry to learn this in one lesson. You think about how many years Snape has had to perfect this art. It's really unfair that he is treating him in this way. And I don't think the hard ass approach is working.

[Andrew]

But time is of the essence here. They don't have years to prepare Harry. And yes, sure. So to your point, Snape could have tried to have been a better teacher, maybe to expedite his progress, but really. But yeah, there's, there's no time.

[Nicole]

Yeah, there's no time. And then the lessons get abruptly ended and nobody tells Dumbledore. So it's like that important that Dumbledore is not checking in on Snape to be like, hey, how's the occupancy going?

[Micah]

Well, there is at least one good thing that comes from these lessons and that's Harry's starting to get some answers. He puts Snape on his heels when he mentions the Department of Mysteries. And he also gets a little bit of insight into who Snape really is, whether he recognizes or not. And we're going to talk a little bit more about that after the break. Race the rudders.

[Nicole]

Race the sails.

[Micah]

Race the sails.

[Andrew]

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over.

[Nicole]

Roger, wait.

[Micah]

Is that an enterprise sales solution?

[Andrew]

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[Laura]

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[Andrew]

So.

[Micah]

The big Snape reveal That I'm not sure. Did many people pick up on this when they were reading? Because Snape says to Harry that the Dark Lord Almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlum able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection. He's talking about, you know, that Snape.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So the big reveal here is he's a double agent. He's basically admitting as much. Yeah, no, I definitely didn't pick up on it at the time, but it is very cool reading back and seeing the groundwork laid for this reveal two books prior to when it comes out.

[Nicole]

Well, and I think we also get the groundwork for the Horcrux reveal and Nagini being one of those Horcruxes, because when Harry says, no, I wasn't Voldemort, I was in the Snake. And Snape is like, well, Voldemort was occupying the. Snape, the Snake at the time, which is technically true. So, yeah, the. The whole plot around Snape being a double agent, around Harry being a Horcrux, this is like, probably the most obvious hints we get for it.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

This early on.

[Micah]

Yeah, it's a great point.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Only Snape can pull off this type of thing. It's like he's uniquely qualified to teach Occlumency. And Snape also does tell Harry that he will know if he didn't practice. And I was thinking that this kind of feels like a hint about Snape being a double agent because he could get a report from Voldemort or Dumbledore that his mind's been penetrated or Harry.

[Nicole]

Yeah. Well, and also he'll be able to see it, like, the next time Harry comes for Occlumency lessons. If Harry hasn't been practicing, Snape's gonna know because he'll see it.

[Micah]

Right, yeah, that's a good point. So I thought we could wrap up the chapter talking about what we think Voldemort actually knows about Harry at this moment. Like, the whole reason behind this is because there's this belief that Voldemort can use Harry to his advantage. But I'm curious, do we think that he has a sense of the Horcrux at this point? I mean, why else would there be this connection that exists between them? And if that's true, why would he potentially look to destroy it? Harry is anchoring him to this world.

[Nicole]

Yeah. I don't know if Voldemort has picked up on the Harry being a Horcrux thing yet. I mean, it seems like he. He knows about the connection between the two of them, but he doesn't understand it, he's just happy that he can try and exploit it.

[Andrew]

Well, yeah. And could it possibly be tied to the Department of Mysteries? He's happy that Harry's been seeing the Department of Mysteries because of course he needs Harry, if not himself, to retrieve the Prophecy.

[Micah]

So that's why he's happy at the end of this chapter.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Nicole]

Well, also think about who seems happy at the beginning of this chapter. Just saying, Creature was in a much better mood earlier on in this chapter. And I mean, I know we, we do find out eventually what Voldemort's so happy about, but I think it's connected. Right, because I think Kreacher has already been feeding intel to Bellatrix. They're already planning what it is they're going to do in a few months time.

[Micah]

But meanwhile, Harry is stroking out on the dormitory floor because of what Snape has done to him.

[Andrew]

I know. Good thing he has friends like Hermione and Ron to look out for him. Hermione's like, I'm not surprised you feel that way. I mean, look what just happened to you. So at least she understands.

[Micah]

I mean, think about what he's going through. Like he's literally like retching maniacally, laughing like he's having almost a psychotic break. Because likely what Snape just did to him put him in a much more weakened state than he otherwise would have been. Yeah, and that's where, like, to me, the neglect of it all comes in. And that's where it's shame. Forget about Snape. That's where it's shame on Dumbledore because he knows potentially what this could do to Harry. Like he needs to make sure that he's cared for after the fact. Going back to what Laura was saying.

[Andrew]

Earlier, Nicole, we are often, well, I say we, but some of us on the panel are often hard on Dumbledore. I'm curious, where do you land on this matter?

[Laura]

I go back and forth, but at the end of this chapter, as like a parent in 2025, the fact that like Harry was alone with Snape, all this goes down and Snape just sends him on his way. It's like, why was no one else there? They should not have been alone. So right now this is Dumbledore is not on my, like, you know, high on my list after this chapter.

[Andrew]

Yeah. You know, and I, I don't really blame Harry for not coming up with this idea, but maybe Harry should have gone to McGonagall and said Snape is being really tough on me during these lessons. I. Can we do something? Can you sit in? Can I bring a friend? Bring a friend to Occlamancy day?

[Nicole]

He's.

[Laura]

He's 15. That's like. This is a 15 year old boy.

[Andrew]

Bang.

[Micah]

Emotional support. Hippogriff.

[Andrew]

He does, yeah. Can I at bring my esh to the lessons?

[Micah]

All right, well, a couple of odds and ends for this chapter. We've done a lot of thread connecting to Prisoner of Azkaban. We'll throw one more in, which is Madame Marsh. She loves herself some night bus.

[Laura]

Right, Nicole, I went back to the third book. Poor Madame Marsh. All we know about her is she gets motion sick, but she keeps going back on that night bush.

[Andrew]

She's a super fan.

[Nicole]

She can't get enough.

[Andrew]

Maybe she's got like an annual pass. All you can ride pass.

[Micah]

And then Hermione makes the connection between Sturgis Podmore and the Department of Mysteries. And then Ron mentions that people who work there are called Unspeakables. So we're getting a little bit more information about the department and that takes us to our best Snape or serious dig of the week.

[Andrew]

Yeah, my favorite was serious calling Snape Snivelus because we see this name come up in a few chapters when we experience Snape's worst memory. So I just love the tie in there because it just speaks to how long these two have hated each other. It's to the point where Sirius is still throwing this name at Snape and they are adults now.

[Nicole]

I'm gonna give it to Snape for the speaking of dogs moment. Snape, to be honest with you, I feel like his comebacks are far more clever than Sirius's. I think Snape is a lot quicker on his feet. And if I were to. If I were to rate who I thought won the disagreement between the two of them, it would have been Snape, to be honest with you. But I love how layered this statement is because it originates from Sirius first accusing Snape of being Lucius's lapdog. Lucius fires back and says speaking of dogs, and he's literally talking about Sirius and Lucius. I think in that moment, he's not just saying. It's not just a statement about he recognized your Animagus form on the platform. It's also him literally calling Sirius and Lucius both dogs. Like, he doesn't think very much of either of them. So I appreciated that. I thought it was clever.

[Micah]

Yeah, I like the line that Snape delivered to Sirius. I guess there was conversation about him saying that he would go to Dumbledore if he found out that Harry was being mistreated by Snape. And he went on to say, are you afraid he might not take the advice of a man who has been hiding inside his mother's house for six months very seriously. Emphasis on the seriously.

[Andrew]

And Nicole.

[Laura]

Yep, I picked, I think in the similar paragraph, Snape, again, he said merely that I am sure you must feel frustrated by the fact that you can do nothing useful. So he kind of hit Sirius where it hurts, where the best thing he could offer the order was his house and kind of ended there.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, you got a feel for Sirius. He wants to do more and he can't. His hands are tied.

[Micah]

Well, over on the links line where we asked Mogulcast listeners who are members of our Patreon a question of the week. This week it was what could possibly make Voldemort the happiest he has ever been? Wrong answers only.

[Andrew]

Wrong answers only. Jeff said someone finally asked him the prom.

[Micah]

Badgerforth said, being asked to be the best man at Dumbledore and Grindelwald's wedding.

[Nicole]

Katie says a cute new two piece swimsuit and matching dollar flip flops that he got on sale from Old Navy.

[Andrew]

Good one. Summer's coming.

[Laura]

Yeah, a gen with a nose ring.

[Andrew]

Laura, you got one of those? We could, we could.

[Nicole]

I do give. Well, it's usually a septum ring.

[Andrew]

Oh, sorry, sorry.

[Nicole]

No, I'm kidding.

[Micah]

I would just have stopped at nose.

[Nicole]

He gets a nose job.

[Andrew]

I think he should get a nose ring. And he'd be like, where'd I put this? Where did I put this? Danielle said, being gifted a trip to the Universal theme parks to play with plastic wands and be surrounded by happy Muggles. That's great.

[Micah]

Rachel says a life size cutout of Dumbledore in his apartment.

[Andrew]

He's just Avada Kedavrang it all day. It's just like totally blown. A billion pieces by the end of.

[Nicole]

The first day and it's just like tattered ruins of cardboard.

[Andrew]

Was that Voldemort sneezing or saying Avada Kedavra? I couldn't tell.

[Nicole]

I think. I think it was a combination of both. Next one is from Krista who says being hugged by Draco first. Nice shout out to that awkward movie or that awkward moment in Deathly Hallows Part 2.

[Andrew]

If that doesn't get brought over to the TV show, I swear to God this Ha. That has to be non negotiable. Yeah.

[Laura]

Steven said going to Disney World and getting pictures with all the Disney princesses.

[Andrew]

Oh, that would be fun, carly said, reading a Dramione fanfic.

[Micah]

Yeah, and Kathleen closes us out world peace and a long walk on the beach at sunset with his bae.

[Andrew]

Thanks everyone. And don't forget, you can participate in the links line every week by becoming a [e-mail] mugglecast and if you have any feedback about today's discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to mugglecastmail.com and next week we'll discuss Order of The Phoenix Chapter 25 the Beetle at Bay. Check out our other weekly podcast, what the Hype and Millennial for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. Over on what the Hype in recent weeks. You can find the Last of Us coverage if you've been watching that TV show, Definitely check it out. And over on Millennial, we're talking about millennials taking mini retirements. And if this is possible for ourselves, I think that's where Eric is this week. They're taking a mini retirement.

[Nicole]

Ah, mini retirement. I'll have to ask them what that's like.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Happy Birthday, Eric.

[Nicole]

That's right, Happy birthday.

[Andrew]

Birthday was April 23rd. So Micah, you're in the Quizzage seat this week. I think it's time for Quizzage.

[Micah]

Let's do it. This week's Quizzage question was what? What actor comedian once eschewed autographs in favor of handing out cards? Reading this certifies that you have had a personal encounter with me and that you found me warm, polite, intelligent and funny. And I think this was drawn from the experience we had in meeting Gilderoy Lockhart in the last chapter. The correct answer is the world renowned comedian Steve Martin. And 88% of people with the correct answer admitted to looking it up. So a little bit of a tough one there. Only 12% didn't have to look it up, but that's actually kind of cool. Correct answers were submitted by A Healthy Breeze, Buckbeats, Emotional Support, Snack Rats, Buff Daddy, Build an Umbrage and Get Over It Every day I'm Hufflin'j Max Hufflepuffle. I literally watched the Pink Panther remake last night. I'm sorry, Kristen the Ravenclaw, Liam the Youngling, Long Bottoms Up, Mary Pop Block and Drop Ins, Straymizel and the one and only Tofu Tom. Next week's Quizzic question what part of the human brain, in addition to aiding cognitive functions like attention and planning, is also involved with the storing of long term memories?

[Andrew]

Ooh.

[Micah]

You can submit your Quizzage answers over on bugglecast.com quizzage Nicole, thanks so much.

[Andrew]

For joining us today. It was great having you on. Thanks for sitting in the Eric seat, if you will.

[Laura]

So exciting.

[Micah]

Yeah. You look great.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

Thank you.

[Andrew]

And we really appreciate your [e-mail] mugglecast listeners. We would appreciate your support there, too. And check out all the benefits. We have lots to offer there, including two new bonus Mugglecast episodes every month. And like we said earlier, we're going to be recording a new one that will be out later this week in which we're talking about scenes from the Order of the Phoenix book that we want brought over to the TV show. Also, don't forget to leave us a review you in your favorite podcast app. And do tell a friend about the show if you think you have some friends that could use some more Harry Potter friends in their lives. Thanks everyone, for listening. I'm Andrew.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Nicole]

I'm Laura.

[Laura]

And I'm Nicole.

[Andrew]

Bye, everyone.

[Nicole]

Bye, y'all.