Society for Hulk Prevention (OOTP Chapter 17, Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four)

Summary

MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Podcast - Episode Summary Episode Title: Society for Hulk Prevention (OOTP Chapter 17, Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four)
Release Date: March 4, 2025

---

1. Introduction to the Episode

In this week's episode of MuggleCast, hosts Andrew, Eric, Micah, and Laura delve into Chapter 17 of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, titled "Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four." The discussion encompasses significant plot developments, character analyses, and real-world parallels that enrich the understanding of the Wizarding World.

---

2. Casting News for the Harry Potter TV Show

The episode kicks off with exciting updates about the upcoming Harry Potter TV series:

• John Lithgow as Dumbledore:
  Andrew shares, "John Lithgow says, yeah, I'm playing Dumbledore. It's me, it's me" [02:03]. This casting choice has sparked conversations about his advanced age (87 at wrap party) and how it influences the portrayal of the iconic headmaster.

• Speculation on Other Characters:
  Eric enthusiastically speculates, "I'm still saying Timothee Chalamet for Harry Potter" [07:23], blending humor with fan excitement. The hosts discuss the potential for an all-British cast versus incorporating American actors, highlighting concerns over maintaining authenticity in accents and cultural nuances.

---

3. Deep Dive into Chapter 17: Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four

a. The Impact of Educational Decree 24

The central focus of this chapter is Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four, which mandates the disbanding of all student groups, clubs, teams, and societies at Hogwarts [12:09]. The trio’s creation of Dumbledore's Army (DA) faces immediate threats due to this decree.

• Hermione's Strategic Move:
  Laura points out Hermione's tactical decision to have students sign a form with a jinx, saying, "She's sort of covering her bases in case anyone tries to argue that they don't have a club" [13:05]. This move ensures accountability but raises ethical questions about informed consent.

• Discussion on Secrecy and Trust:
  Micah reflects, “There's no real safe space now for Harry to operate. There's no safe space for him to exist as a student” [17:37], emphasizing the oppressive environment Umbridge is creating. The hosts debate whether Hermione’s underhanded methods are justified, with Andrew noting, "Hermione did the right thing by not telling them" [19:26].

b. Umbridge's Increasing Control

Umbridge’s pervasive presence is a recurring theme:

• Monitored Communications:
  McGonagall informs Harry that all communication channels are being monitored [33:00], confirming Hermione's suspicions about intercepted messages. Micah analyzes, “It's just one of those situations where the walls are starting to close in around Harry and his friends” [16:42].

• Quidditch Team Disbanded:
  The Gryffindor Quidditch team is also disbanded, with Slytherin receiving favoritism in reinstating their team [27:55]. Eric criticizes the fairness of this decision, stating, "This is wrong. Their freedom is limited" [28:29].

c. Hedwig's Distress and Its Implications

Hedwig, Harry's loyal owl, is attacked, hinting at deeper conflicts [31:06]. The hosts discuss the emotional impact:

• Protective Instincts:
  Eric shares his empathy, “I have been thinking about her a lot during the read through of this chapter because I would hate for her to be injured” [38:20].

• Potential Threats:
  The possibility of Umbridge attacking Hedwig raises the stakes, with Micah noting, “What’s worse, ... Umbridge is trying to get him to remember what his place is” [29:56].

---

4. Character Interactions and Developments

a. Neville's Confrontation with Malfoy

Neville stands up to Malfoy after an insensitive comment about his parents:

• Emotional Response:
  Andrew commends Neville, saying, “I have no issues with it … Malfoy deserved it” [47:53]. The hosts explore Neville's growth and the pain underlying his confrontation.

• Harry's Loyalty:
  Micah highlights Harry's discretion, “Harry has stayed loyal to his word” [50:57], contrasting it with Dumbledore’s tendency to withhold information.

b. Trelawney's Probation and Umbridge's Oversight

Trelawney faces probation due to Umbridge's scrutiny:

• Teacher Evaluation Parallels:
  Andrew draws real-world parallels, “What teachers are going through right now in the school is similar to what's happening to federal employees in the US Government” [60:18].

• Dumbledore’s Support:
  The hosts question Dumbledore's lack of immediate support for Trelawney, with Laura critiquing, “Dumbledore should have long ago given her some level of coaching” [66:32].

---

5. Real-World Connections and Reflections

The hosts frequently tie the narrative to real-world issues:

• Authoritarian Control in Education:
  The episode draws comparisons between Umbridge’s control over Hogwarts and real-world governmental overreach in educational institutions, emphasizing the importance of supporting educators.

• Parental Concerns:
  Reflecting on Molly Weasley’s protective instincts, Andrew states, “She's trying to control the situation as much as she can” [73:59], resonating with real-life parental fears and protective measures.

---

6. Listener Engagement and Interactive Segments

a. Community Theories and Participation

Listeners contribute theories on why Mundungus Fletcher was banned from the Hogshead:

• Goat-Related Theories:
  Numerous listeners speculate involvement with Aberforth’s goats, with Xavier humorously suggesting, “Dung tried to steal and sell one of Aberforth's ghosts” [84:21].

• Non-Goat Theories:
  Others propose Mundungus might have stolen cauldrons or caused unruly events, showcasing the community’s creative engagement [86:27].

b. Quizzage and MVP of the Week

The hosts introduce fun segments like Quizzage, testing listeners' knowledge with questions related to the lore, and highlight MVPs who provide insightful answers or creative responses.

• Example Question:
  “What bird did the ancient Greeks, ancient Romans, and Genghis Khan all use to send their messages?”
  Answer: “Carrier pigeon”

---

7. Closing Thoughts and Upcoming Content

As the episode wraps up, the hosts tease future discussions:

• Next Chapter Preview:
  “Next week, Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 18, Dumbledore's Army will be discussed” [89:10].

• Podcast Promotions:
  Brief mentions of other MuggleCast shows and ways listeners can support the podcast through Patreon, merchandise, and subscriptions [89:10].

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• John Lithgow on Playing Dumbledore:
  Eric: “Yeah, man.” [02:17]

• Hermione's Strategic Decree Signing:
  Laura: “Mysterious thing time.” [11:21]

• Impact of Umbridge's Control:
  Micah: “She needs to be on their mind every hour of every day.” [15:33]

• Hermione’s Jinx Justification:
  Andrew: “I think Hermione did the right thing by not telling them.” [19:26]

• Molly Weasley’s Protective Nature:
  Michelle (listener): “I identify very much with Molly in this book. As a mom, I would protect my kids at all costs, even if they are mad at me about it.” [74:54]

---

Conclusion

This episode of MuggleCast provides a thorough exploration of Chapter 17 of Order of the Phoenix, intertwining narrative analysis with character studies and real-world parallels. The hosts' insightful discussions, coupled with active listener participation, create a rich and engaging experience for both long-time fans and newcomers to the Wizarding World.

---

For more detailed discussions, theories, and interactive segments, be sure to listen to the full episode on your favorite podcast platform!

Transcript

[Eric]

Whistle while you work from Disney.

[Micah]

On March 21, the magical tale Snow White. Snow White, Snow White that started it all.

[Eric]

I believe you're looking for me.

[Micah]

Arrives in theaters.

[Eric]

Magic Mirror on the Wall Experience, the.

[Andrew]

Disney classic who's the fairest one of all? Like never before. We haven't even been in Ragolst yet. Disney Snow White only in theaters March 21st.

[Micah]

Rated PG.

[Andrew]

Parental guidance suggested.

[Laura]

We're so with New Year, new you.

[Andrew]

This year it's more you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially.

[Laura]

That one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them.

[Andrew]

More of you dating with intention because.

[Laura]

You know what you want and you know what we love that for you. Someone else will too be more you.

[Andrew]

This year and find them on Bumble. Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get.

[Laura]

In the way of life. At Capella University. Our game changing flexpath learning format lets.

[Eric]

You set your own deadline so you.

[Laura]

Can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to pursue your professional goals. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Edu.

[Andrew]

Welcome to Mugglecast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom, where we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books and keep you updated on the upcoming Harry Potter TV show. This week, keep an eye on your fireplace because we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 16, Educational Decree 24. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

And we do have a bit of Harry Potter TV show news this week. A small update following up on an item we discussed a couple weeks ago. John Lithgow says, yeah, I'm playing Dumbledore. It's me, it's me.

[Eric]

Yeah, man.

[Andrew]

He said this in a recent interview. He confirmed it. Now, keep in mind, Warner Brothers has not confirmed this yet. So he got out ahead of their announcement whenever they were planning on making it. He said, I'll be about 87 at the wrap party, but I've said yes. I just got the phone call up at the Sundance Film Festival and it was not an easy decision because it's going to define me for the last chapter of my life, I'm afraid. But I'm very excited. So it's not just us who's concerned about his Age because this is a 10 year commitment. Warner Brothers says this is a 10 year project they're embarking on. Look, I'm excited. I just think it's interesting they're casting somebody so old.

[Eric]

I'm coming around on it, his casting specifically because he is such a good actor, Emmy Award winner and that kind of thing. And I still uncertain what this means for other Americans potentially being cast in the film since that barrier of old is not maintained with this, this go around, this reboot TV series. But yeah, and I think that what touched me about his statement is specifically this, this line about defining him for his. The last chapter of his life. So. So I think that he is looking at it with the level of, I don't know, scope that this really has the chance to be a defining type role. That excites me.

[Laura]

Yeah, he knows how important it is to your point, Eric and I don't know, when we heard the rumor and heard that it was a very believable rumor, I was excited and I'm super excited. He is such a talented actor. And yeah, I mean, the age consideration is something that I'm sure they had a conversation about. But at the end of the day, if an actor who plays an iconic role passes away, it's not the first time that's happened. And we've seen how this very series has, I don't want to say rectified that, but like recast the role with somebody who was able to carry it forward, you know. So I actually feel pretty confident about this.

[Andrew]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Micah]

I wasn't on the episode when you discussed the rumor. So this is the first time I'm getting a chance to react to it. But just hearing him talk about the role, I think is exciting. And while it hasn't been confirmed by Warner Brothers, I did like what you were talking about, about how really it seems like they're casting around Dumbledore. Right. This is the first big confirmation that we've gotten. Yeah. We've heard some rumors about Snape, but we now presumably have our Dumbledore for the TV series. And this idea that they are casting around him is something new because presumably the first time around they cast around.

[Eric]

The trio, I'm calling it right now, Joseph Gordon Levitt for Snape.

[Micah]

Oh, wow. Bring back everybody from 3rd Rock.

[Eric]

Have a whole 3rd Rock reunion. Absolutely. Starting with JGL.

[Andrew]

You know, something that excited me about John Lithgow being cast as Dumbledore is that I was watching the SAG Awards last Sunday and he ended up accepting an award for was It Conclave, Micah?

[Micah]

I think so. That would have made sense.

[Andrew]

He's in conclave, right? Yeah. With Ralph Fiennes, who of course played Voldemort in the movies. And they were standing right next to each other at the SAG Awards. I was like, oh, this is interesting. Here's TV Dumbledore and movie Voldemort accepting an award together. But what really stood out to me was John Lithgow is actually a tall guy. And that further sold me on Dumbledore. I think the height must have been a factor in deciding to cast him.

[Eric]

Yeah. And from Harry's perspective, when he's 11, like Dumbledore is this tall, older than dirt kind of guy who's so ageist. No, his nose has been broken at least twice. Like, I don't know. This, this. He might. He might just have the look down. I'm not sure.

[Micah]

I did want to ask about the fact that this is not a British actor.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Is this surprising to us? Do we feel like we're going to get a mixed cast now?

[Andrew]

It worries me a little bit. I don't want to see too many American actors in the TV show. I want them to stick with British people.

[Laura]

Well, it sounds like for the trio, if I recall the casting announcement, they were looking for people in the UK and Ireland. So I think, at least for the trio and probably a lot of the kids, they're going to stick with British actors.

[Andrew]

And that makes sense because it would be a big challenge to ask very young kids to pull off a good English accent on top of everything else.

[Eric]

They'Ve got to do. Right.

[Andrew]

Including thrust into the spotlight.

[Eric]

French Stewart for Filch. Please and thank you.

[Andrew]

I'm still saying Timothee Chalamet for Harry Potter.

[Laura]

How old is. Isn't he like, 30 now?

[Andrew]

Yes. He played Bob Dylan, for God's sake.

[Eric]

This role has a real good chance of defining him, Laura, if he would only accept it. Dune didn't do it.

[Andrew]

How do you feel, Micah? Do you think they should be casting all English people or should they be dabbling in the American waters or elsewhere?

[Micah]

This is presumably the most important role outside of Harry, so the fact that they would cast an American actor is a bit surprising. I think I anticipated pretty much an all British cast here.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

I don't know if you necessarily need it, but it's definitely surprising.

[Eric]

The interesting thing to me is that there are quite a bit more British actors on American mainstream projects now. And you wouldn't even necessarily recognize, like, Charlie Cox, who plays Daredevil in the Marvel series, totally British and does a convincing American accent. So it's. They would presumably have, you know, a large group of actors to choose from that maybe when we get the news, we're like, wait a minute, aren't they American? It turns out, no. No. In fact, they're not.

[Micah]

One thing. Just to mention briefly, in the Discord, Gabby did mention that John Lithgow did play Winston Churchill in the Crown. So presumably, either he can do a very good British accent or AI can or whatever the technology is.

[Andrew]

I think they'll just have them naturally pull.

[Laura]

No, he's. He has an incredibly broad range. Like, you're talking Lord Farquaad. A deranged serial killer. Winston Churchill.

[Eric]

Wait, which one is the serial killer?

[Laura]

Dexter.

[Micah]

Dexter.

[Eric]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Listeners, stick with Mugglecast for continuing coverage of the Harry Potter TV show. Make sure you're following us in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube, and we'll continue to share news as it happens. As we continue to analyze the books and prepare to cover the Harry Potter TV show, we could really use your support at patreon.com mugglecast your financial support allows us to focus more time on the show and less time in the Muggle world. And in exchange, we'll offer you instant access to lots of great benefits like more Mugglecast. We release two bonus Mugglecast episodes every month on our Patreon. We'll also hook you up with a new physical gift every year ad free episodes of the show, exclusive Facebook and Discord groups, and so much more. Thanks, everybody for your support. We really could not do this without you. And let's now dive into chapter by chapter. And this week we're discussing Order of The Phoenix, chapter 17, educational decree number 24.

[Eric]

Yes, and we last discussed this chapter on episode 453 of Mugglecast, which in fun throwback flashback news was titled Too Fast, Too Illustrated because they had just announced Minalima's foray into the illustrated Harry Potter universe.

[Andrew]

Time is a flat circle on February.

[Micah]

What a coincidence.

[Eric]

February 11, 2020 was that episode three.

[Laura]

Turns should do anything.

[Andrew]

Good luck. What the.

[Eric]

Episode 453.

[Andrew]

David, who's listening live, brings up a good point. He says, so by definition, does the trio count as a society, team, group, club? Because in this decree, she says three or more. Yeah, three does seem like a low number. I mean, there are groups of three. I mean, we would be banned.

[Eric]

We're a.

[Andrew]

We're a club.

[Micah]

No podcasting.

[Laura]

Oh, Umbridge would absolutely hate us. Mysterious thing time.

[Andrew]

And we're Gonna get banned again for sure.

[Laura]

Absolutely. Well, let's get right into it, shall we? We left Harry on a really bright, positive note. At the end of the last chapter, he was observing how beautiful the village of Hogsmeade was. Everything was kind of being viewed through rose colored glasses because Hermione had observed to Harry, you know, Cho couldn't stop looking at you. Plus she complimented you and stood up for you during the meeting. And that's all well and good for Harry. I love when he gets these moments. Unfortunately, they don't tend to last very long. And that's the case here, too.

[Andrew]

Why Should Harry Ever Be Happy, basically.

[Laura]

Is that the title of the episode?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Why Should We Be Happy? We'll see you next week. But the reason that his happiness is cut short here is because on Monday morning, we are introduced to Educational Decree 24, which disbands all student groups, clubs, teams and societies. I don't know that I am aware of Hogwarts having any societies that we ever heard about. Maybe we can unpack what those would be during this discussion. But it's okay, you know, everything has been disbanded, but students can have their group reinstated by getting approval from the high inquisitors. So no biggie, right?

[Eric]

Yeah, you just have to bow to the whims and whatever she asks you to do in order to get your club approved.

[Andrew]

In terms of the societies, I wonder if Umbridge is sort of covering her bases in case anyone tries to argue that they don't have a club or they have a society.

[Eric]

A Society for the Protection of Elfish Welfare. Hello. SPEW is a guy.

[Laura]

Oh, SPEW is. Oh. And Umbridge would definitely disband spew.

[Eric]

Oh, absolutely.

[Laura]

I'm actually kind of surprised that that never became a conflict in this book. Maybe it would have just been too much. Yeah, because I feel like Hermione at this point, she's going through a phase of rebellion where if she actually had the conscious realization of, oh, me doing SPEW is just one more thing that I can do to get under Umbridge's skin and resist, she would do it. So it could just be that it would have been too many plot points.

[Eric]

I think maybe also, technically it's disbanded because Hermione's the only one doing it right now. So. Well, like, you know, so it's not society, there's no social aspect. It's just Hermione and her. Her own crafts.

[Andrew]

Well, and the decree says what, three or more people? Three or more groups of three or more. So Hermione's Sneaking under the wire that way too.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Aren't Harry and Ron technically members?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Didn't they sign up?

[Andrew]

Do they all get together to. For these.

[Eric]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew]

They paid her meetings.

[Eric]

They paid her and got their. And got their little badge.

[Laura]

Well, Micah, there is a significance to the number of this educational decree, right?

[Micah]

There might be. I thought it might be fun to look up the significance of the number 24. And so in numerology, the number 24 is often interpreted as a symbol of harmony, balance and completeness. And in this case, we would be talking about Umbridge, not the students. Right. We could see how this could put her mind at ease if she is in full control of what the students are doing in their off time. And I also thought it was relevant that they're 24 hours in a day. So Umbridge, this is her way of controlling students every waking hour.

[Eric]

Yes. She needs to be on their mind every hour of every day.

[Micah]

Right. We know that she is inspecting all of the different classes, so she's in control there. But now she's clearly in control when they're not in the classroom. And it's just one of those situations where the walls are starting to close in around Harry and his friends. We see that throughout this chapter. It's not just the educational decree, it's everything that is happening throughout the course of this chapter we can point to as a significant moment and say the walls are closing in. And one thing I did want to bring up, we talked about this actually, back on episode 453. There's a significance to the fact that the educational decree is literally covering everything else on the board. Right. It's saying that this is more important. This is taking over all the things that Harry mentions or that the author mentions that are also on the board. They are being covered by the educational decree.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, she's taken over. It's a huge power grab. I guess she's exercising her insanely large amount of power.

[Laura]

So obviously the trio are not the only ones who are in shock at this decree and wondering about how it's going to affect their extracurricular activities. I think his second year comes up next to Harry and says, oh, I wonder if Gobstone's club will still be allowed. And Harry was like, child. I think Ron was actually like, I think Gobstones will be fine, but I don't know about our thing, Harry.

[Eric]

Bless that kid's heart. Little Gobstones fanatic.

[Laura]

I know it's so innocent, so pure. But, you know, that student was young and didn't realize that Voldemort was back and that, you know, I picture it.

[Eric]

In a very like Dickensian, like a Dickensian orphan. It's like, does this mean they canceled the Gobstone.

[Micah]

Oliver Twist?

[Eric]

Oh, yeah.

[Laura]

Well, of course, for the trio, I think the first natural conclusion to jump to is, okay, who blabbed? Who blabbed to Umbridge already? Like, it's only been like a day. And Hermione's like, no, I don't think so. Because I did something to the sheet that everyone signed that would make it very obvious if someone blabbed to Umbridge or to anyone. And that really then opens up the question for the trio, then who could it be?

[Eric]

I'm glad this isn't a mystery that lasts too long. You know, it's, it's. They quickly realize that, oh yeah, there were a lot of other people in the Hogshead and we could have been more careful.

[Micah]

Maybe it's a great insurance policy that Hermione decided to take out. But how do we feel about this underhanded move? Because it is underhanded.

[Eric]

Yeah. She did not tell them. Hey, by signing up, you are in some pretty serious, under pretty serious penalty.

[Andrew]

It's a, it's a double edged sword because if she did tell people, they probably would have been less inclined to actually sign the piece of paper. On the other hand, by not telling them, then you're getting everybody. Then you're really making sure that all the people who attended are not only signing the list, but going to be kept honest. So I don't really know what the answer is here. I guess I would have said, I don't know. I think Hermione did the right thing by not telling them.

[Eric]

Yeah, no, when we get to the Marietta chapter, I always feel bad for, you know, situations being what they are and Umbridge being as awful as she is. But currently while reading this, I just feel like desperate times call for desperate measures. At least, at least Hermione's jinx was non lethal. It was overkill. I know we've discussed previously, like Hermione's character, what it says about Hermione's character that she did this, but at least it was non lethal.

[Laura]

I'll just say that, yeah, I tend to agree with that. You know, would this have been overkill if it were for their secret Gobstones club? Absolutely. For this I agree.

[Eric]

Desperate times, the stakes couldn't be higher. Kind of.

[Andrew]

How about some sort of charm where anytime one of the people who signed the sheet try to Speak about it, Their voice becomes garbled or something like that. Why did it have to be like a physical change to them? Like you can only talk about it if you've also if you're talking about it to people who have signed the same sheet that you did, Like a.

[Eric]

Secret Keeper kind of thing. Yeah. That would just be really advanced, though.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I guess.

[Eric]

Like, you could do it, but only, like a few really talented wizards could do it.

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Micah]

Because I feel like then it's clear who the rat is. If it was just a matter of muffling their voice, you would never really know. Versus pimples, the acne.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

They last a little bit of time and so you'd be able to see who actually ratted you out.

[Andrew]

I must have been a rat back in the day because I was getting a lot of pimples on my face. I'm realizing that's why now.

[Laura]

Oh, you didn't make the connection at the time.

[Andrew]

No, I didn't.

[Eric]

I really ought to stop snitching on my friend. Nah. Nah, Never.

[Andrew]

I've always had bad acting.

[Eric]

Well, it cleared up, Andrew. So you must have gone on the straight and narrow.

[Andrew]

Somewhat. Somewhat.

[Micah]

Speaking of placing blame, Ron is one who's very quick to blame the students, but he forgets that he was in a public space with a lot of shifty people lurking about, and he doesn't even think for a second that it could possibly be one of those individuals. So it just shows how his mind is right now.

[Eric]

What's funny about Ron? And you gotta love him. He's Harry's loyal friend, but he wants to place the blame on somebody that has previously wronged him. I think that Ron is still upset over the Zachariah Smith encounter.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Eric]

In the Hogshead. And so he wants to immediately have permission to, like, jump to the conclusion that Zachariah Smith did this. Who even are you, dude? You know? But, like, he has no evidence and he just needs to be kind of like, okay, it's not. It's not him. Like, don't.

[Andrew]

We're Ginny's new boyfriend.

[Eric]

Well, right.

[Laura]

Oh, yeah. So in retrospect, do we think it would have been smart for the DA to form under some kind of innocuous sounding mission like Gobstone's club, if we want to go back to that example, so that it would be less likely for Umbridge to have heard about all of this?

[Eric]

Yeah. I think the issue for me is that this was their first meeting. They did need a. And the ability to, like, when first gathered, be like, this is what we need to do. Let's start a group for it. Like as soon as they have that initial kind of thesis statement or mission statement established, then they can call it whatever innocuous name they want. But because they were overheard right out the gate, there might not have been any like avoiding this.

[Laura]

Yeah, that's true. I think they would have had to start smaller than they did. Probably. Probably the cardinal sin here is having their initial meeting with so many people. It just attracts a ton of attention.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And as Sirius brings up later, they should have done it in the Three Broomstick because there's safety in numbers. And if you're in a crowded space, nobody's going to think anything of all these people gathering there.

[Laura]

Well, I wanted to ask for make the. Make a real life connection and see if any of us were ever part of a student group that got disbanded.

[Eric]

I've never had one canceled on me. I had one fizzle out. There was a very short lived barbershop quartet in high school. A couple of guys wanted to get together and rehearse and we, we had a few. I guess we could have been good. I sang bass and you know, we did a couple of practices and then it just kind of. There was like an unspoken agreement that it wasn't going to meet again and we all just kind of left one day without even saying like proper goodbyes. And then we never. Or it was. Maybe it continued on without me. I'm not sure if I was phased out or what, but it was a lot of fun for maybe like five weeks.

[Andrew]

Never disbanded group. But I. This kind of reminds me of when my 5th grade teacher tried to stop us kids from reading Harry Potter in school. And the parents, including my mom, were not happy about that. So there were attempts to disband the Love of Harry Potter from the students. Love that work out though.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

This show is sponsored by Better Help. Harry starts off this chapter in a great mood because he realizes he has a large support system around him. There are a couple dozen students on his side and it feels great to have them at his back helping him out. And here in the Muggle world, in a society that glorifies hyper independence, it's easy to forget that we're all better when we have a support system behind us. Part of your support system can come through therapy. Having someone in your corner who is solely focused on helping you thrive and helping you confront the demons in your world. I love working with my therapist because she not only backs me up, but isn't afraid to question my thinking. It helps me build a clearer picture of what I'm dealing with, which ultimately puts me in a better place in my life. I highly recommend working with a therapist, and BetterHelp is where you can find one. They're fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient. You can access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Plus, if your therapist isn't a right fit for you, you can switch therapists at any time. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com mugglecast today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelphelp.com mugglecast Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Ebglis.

[Laura]

After an initial dosing phase of 16 weeks, about 4 in 10 people taking EVGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin.

[Andrew]

And most of those people maintain skin.

[Laura]

That'S still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

[Andrew]

EBGLIS Lebrikizumab LBKZ, a 250mg 2ml injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to Ebglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with ebglis. Before starting Epglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection searching for real relief.

[Laura]

Ask your doctor about ebglis and visit ebglis.linklily.com or call 1-800-LilyRx or 1-800-545-5979. All right, well, we know Harry is a rebel now, so he has no intention of letting Educational Decree 24 stop the D A or shut the DA down. Unfortunately, the Gryffindor Quidditch team is not a secret society, so that does get shut down. Angelina inform informs him soon after this that the Gryffindor Quidditch team has also been disbanded. We learn that Slytherin was able to get their Team privileges back very quickly from Umbridge, of course, because favoritism.

[Andrew]

And as we see across this chapter, Umbridge is taking her time to decide if Gryffindor can resume Quidditch activities or not. While Slytherin has gotten approval. To me, I feel like this is just Umbridge's way of making sure Harry doesn't piss her off. He stays good. He doesn't try to step a toe out of line. Because if she continues to hold Quidditch at the whole team's Quidditch practices over his head, he is not going to want to stoke the fire. He's going to stay as good as possible.

[Eric]

Yeah, this, it's just, this is, this is wrong. Their freedom is limited. And a single person that's placed in charge, that's Umbridged can decide to unfairly penalize one group they like and another they that they don't. This also opens the doors for bribery, flattery, any manner of non equitable practices that are really meant to just restrict freedoms and really encourage bribery and lawlessness.

[Micah]

What do you do? Like dangle a kitten out in front of her?

[Eric]

I mean, maybe.

[Micah]

Maybe. Yeah. No question. It's an issue of fairness and there's no reason if one Quidditch team was approved, that the others shouldn't be as well, right?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

When Angelina speaks to her and she doesn't give her a reason, she just says, I'll need to think about it.

[Micah]

It's like my question would be, who is Slytherin going to play against? Themselves?

[Eric]

Yeah, why not?

[Andrew]

Splits a team up in half and we don't know.

[Eric]

That's one way to win the house cup.

[Micah]

The status of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, but we have to assume that they're probably in a similar category to Gryffindor. Maybe not to the extent of Gryffindor because of Harry, but it's clear Slytherin got the fast track of approval.

[Andrew]

Well, and to your point, Micah, if I were McGonagall, I would be pissed about how unfair this is. Like you said, you can't let the Slytherins play and other houses not play. That makes no sense.

[Laura]

And unfortunately the hits do keep coming for Harry. Not only is all of this happening, is he having to face the prospect of Umbridge really using the Gryffindor Quidditch team against him to kind of put him in his place. She's trying to get him to remember what his place is and the fact that he is inferior and that he is someone who is out of line. Just by kind of existing. So not only is he dealing with that, but when he's in History of Magic, a little bit later, Hedwig, very bizarrely, shows up at the window trying to deliver a letter to Harry, which is unusual for her. She didn't come with the other post owls at breakfast. And when Harry opens the window, brings her in bins, of course, doesn't notice because he's just doing what he always does. Harry notices very quickly that she's hurt. Her wing is bent, her feathers are all jostled. It's very clear that she's in pain.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's disturbing. Somebody is attacking Hedwig. I mean, Harry's already been attacked with the detentions, and now here comes. Now his poor pet animal is being attacked as well. Nothing's out of bounds here.

[Laura]

Yeah, well. And I mean, he's got to be thinking about all the possibilities for who could have done this, right? Because he just had Filch cornering him a few weeks ago, trying to intercept his mail. So he already knows that someone's watching or attempting to watch. And there, I think, there are a number of culprits that you could point to. Micah, were you going to say something?

[Micah]

Yeah, it just goes back to earlier. We were talking about the fact that the walls are closing in. It's not just the educational decrees now. It's the fact that Hedwig has been attacked. Like you're saying. Filch was clearly suspicious of him a couple of chapters ago. He was suspicious of him last chapter prior to going to Hogsmeade. He's literally sniffing him as he walks by him. And we're going to see, as we progress through this chapter, Umbridge is literally in every one of their classes. And then, of course, she's in the fireplace at the end of the chapter. So there's no real safe space now for Harry to operate. There's no safe space for him to exist as a student.

[Andrew]

No privacy. Privacy. Nightmare.

[Laura]

Completely. Well, Harry, of course, would want to take Hedwig to Hagrid before anyone else to help mend her, but he's obviously not available. So Harry goes in search of Professor Grubbly Plank, goes to the staff room, and when he meets with her about mending Hedwig and observes that he thinks Hedwig has been attacked, she looks at Hedwig and drops this piece of foreshadowing in saying, thestrals will sometimes go for birds, of course, but Hagrid's got the Hogwarts Thestrals well trained not to touch Owls. And this is so funny because right after Harry's inner monologue is literally like, I don't know what Thestrals are and I don't really care. But it's like, no, actually, you do want to know what they are.

[Andrew]

Oh. What I had forgotten was that it takes Harry so long to actually put a term on these creatures he had seen earlier in the book. Whereas in the movie, doesn't he learn, like, right at the beginning when Luna's like, they're called Thestrals. Yeah, it's pretty early.

[Eric]

Yeah, it's pretty early.

[Andrew]

This is like an ongoing mystery in this book.

[Eric]

Well, right, because it's funny because, like, in book three, Harry sees the Grimm all year and he's trying to not believe that it's the Grimm or something. He's going away, and now he's got this other mystery creature that he doesn't know anything about that maybe only he can see. I don't know. Yeah, you'd think that he would learn, like, want to learn what they are. Absolutely. I was impressed by the vote of confidence here from Grubbly Plank. Like, she gives Hagrid a compliment, essentially. It's. It's not that. It's not that they ever had beef. They absolutely probably never did. But we like to pit them against each other because Harry's so pro Hagrid, so aggressively pro Hagrid. But it's nice to see Grubbly Plank gives that, by her estimate, Haggard did a great job with the Thestrals, right?

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Micah]

But not as professor for Care of Magical Creatures. As the groundskeeper of Hogwarts. That would be one of his responsibilities, right? To.

[Eric]

Well, given that they're Thestrals by school. Yeah. That's interesting. It probably crosses both territories.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Grumbly Plank strikes me as an extremely professional person who's not gonna have beef with her co workers. And she's not gonna walk into Hagrid's classroom and have an automatic assumption of superiority for her own skills or think to compare and contrast herself, she just seems happy to be there, honestly.

[Andrew]

Reminds me we were talking about her a few chapters ago when Umbridge was watching her lesson. Mad that Umbridge was there. And when Umbridge is like, you'll get your report back in a week, Grubbly Plank just goes, jolly good. Okay, time for a cup of tea. She just doesn't care. She's just there for the ride and enjoys teaching. Clocks in, clocks out. Doesn't overthink it, but I wouldn't cross her.

[Micah]

There's something about her. She smokes a pipe. She has a badass element about her.

[Laura]

Oh yeah, I agree.

[Andrew]

It's Plank in her name. I think she's a pirate.

[Micah]

Or Wilhelmina. Right. That's her first name that we learned in this chapter.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

As they're having this interaction and before Harry leaves Hedwig with Professor Grubbly Plank, McGonagall asks Harry where that letter came from. And she kind of has her eyebrows like raised, looking at Harry suspiciously. Harry says, London. She immediately understands that to mean Grimmel Place. And she pulls him aside and basically says, hey, Harry, all the channels of communication in and out of Hogwarts are being monitored. So please do keep that in mind while you're writing letters to and from your escaped convict godfather, as evidenced by your owl. Yeah, exactly. So Harry now has confirmation that his letter could have been intercepted. I think he kind of tries to lie to himself and say that it wasn't because I think we see. We see later on in the chapter how that turns out. But there is this moment that I felt as a pet parent in this interaction. As Harry hands Hedwig over to Professor Grubbly Plank and he starts walking away from them, Hedwig has this reproachful look on her face like, you're leaving me with a stranger and you're going on vacation.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's what my dog thinks.

[Laura]

Right. So I was gonna say, do any of us relate to this feeling as pet parents?

[Eric]

Oh, yeah, yeah. As a cat owner, my cat, Martha, I really have been thinking about her a lot during the read through of this chapter because I would hate for her to be injured. Like how fragile, tiny animals compared to human strength. To realize what must have happened to Hedwig was that Umbridge manhandled her is devastating. When somebody that you don't know or like manhandles your animal like that. Like there are very few instances where I would commit like a homicide, but that gets me close. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

You know, like really though?

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. You get defensive and you know, you want to kill somebody. Yeah.

[Eric]

It's. Who would hurt an animal. Right. Who would. You're big, big weak person to do that. Yeah.

[Laura]

I like my dog more than I like most people and I will leave it at that.

[Eric]

Okay. Yeah. You won't couch to committing a homicide maybe one day, Laura.

[Laura]

Well, no, maybe I will, maybe I won't.

[Eric]

Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, because you know, if this were Hogwarts legacy, you'd be cast in that ak.

[Laura]

Oh, that. That's true. Totally.

[Andrew]

I think we can reel this back a little bit. I mean, we're. We're basically talking about the equivalent of leaving your dog with a pet sitter or a vet.

[Eric]

Yeah, okay. In that case, no, but I'm talking about the injury that. That caused her to need it.

[Laura]

Like, that's.

[Eric]

You attacked. Headway. Come on. But no, whenever I leave, when we take Martha to the vet, she's meowing. You know, she doesn't really understand where she's going in the car, in the little carrier. And it's devastating because we keep saying, you know, like, hey, it's okay. We're taking. You know.

[Andrew]

That's the same noise Micah makes when he leaves me, actually. That's so funny.

[Micah]

Yeah. It's separation anxiety from Andrew. It's really. It's tough on me. I totally understand where Hedwig is coming from. Right. And, you know, it's the same thing as being separated from Andrew. But.

[Eric]

The.

[Micah]

The reality for Hedwig, though, is, like, it would actually be different if it was Hagrid, because she knows Hagrid. Hagrid was the one who gave her to Harry initially. Right. So at least there's some sort of relationship there. But this is also the staff office. And who knows if Umbridge is going to find her way into the staff office at some point and see Hedwig there being treated by Grubbly Plank. Right. And we were presuming that it was Umbridge, or at least on Umbridge's orders, that Hedwig was attacked. So wouldn't that be scary for Hedwig to potentially come face to face again with the person who did this to her?

[Andrew]

Absolutely.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And we see that in the Muggle world, too. Like, an animal gets abused and then they don't want to be touched. They don't want to. They hate all men all of a sudden. Like, they. They'd never forget that type of thing.

[Laura]

Right. Once Harry ascertains that Hedwig is in good hands, he finally gets to open his letter from Sirius. And the message is really simple and vague. Just says, today, same time, same place, same fireplace, as a matter of fact. But Hermione here is quick to make the connection about Hedwig probably being intercepted and floats this idea, like we just mentioned a few moments ago, of Harry's letter being read and magically resealed, that it would be very easy to do. Harry's kind of in denial about it, and she even goes so far as to suggest that the flu network could be monitored as well. Which Harry should be thinking of because McGonagall literally just told him.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Channels of communication are being monitored.

[Andrew]

Yeah. But at the same time they're kind of stuck because they can't get a message back to Sirius. He's going to be showing up in that fireplace whether they want him to or not. It is too bad. This whole scenario got me thinking. Hedwig and other magical animals should be able to communicate better with humans somehow using a spell, a charm, I brainwaves something. It you would think there's magic to allow a witch or wizard to read the mind of a animal or their pet. Their designated pet.

[Laura]

Well, I'm sure Hedwig's probably thinking you can do magic. Why don't you fix me? Why are you leaving me with a stranger?

[Eric]

Listen, Harry never had a proper healing class and care of magical creatures. He's still only in his fifth year.

[Laura]

Hedwig doesn't care about that.

[Eric]

He should have learned to do it though, because she's been mistreated before by the Dursleys, so. And in fact. Well, like. And here's the other thing. If Grubbly Plank or whoever the Care of Magical Creatures teacher is would pay regular wellness checks to the owlery, then all the owls would be familiar with her. Who's actually watching after those owls and their well being?

[Micah]

Nobody.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Just their owners.

[Eric]

Dung on the floor. Yeah.

[Micah]

And Andrew, you brought up the point though that Cerys is gonna show up no matter what. But couldn't Harry have gone to McGonagall to send a message to Grimald Place? Presumably her communications aren't being watched, at least not yet. And we know that the Order communicates via Patronus, so perhaps there was another way around this. I mean, I feel like we're gonna go back and forth on this a lot throughout Order of the Phoenix in terms of communicating with Sirius and whether or not he should show up in certain places. But yeah.

[Andrew]

Well, maybe Harry didn't want to tell McGonagall that it was Sirius who wanted to come knocking. That's my only guess. I think your point is good otherwise.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Micah]

You feel like it would have gotten both of them into trouble. Probably.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Laura]

I don't know though. I feel like McGonagall would be able to put two and two together because she knows who the letter's from and she's like, by the way, all channels of communication are being monitored. I think it would be a pretty easy guess to make.

[Micah]

But Sirius lives for that risk though.

[Laura]

He does.

[Micah]

I don't think it would deter him all that much.

[Laura]

We'll see that in his character later on when they have their flu conversation. But for now we need to take a quick break for a few words from our sponsors and then we will be back to talk about why Neville has had it.

[Andrew]

I can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve.

[Laura]

And it does without me lifting up finger so I can get in more squats anywhere I can.

[Andrew]

1, 2, 3.

[Eric]

Will that be cash or credit? Credit.

[Andrew]

4 Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion that does the heavy lifting. So you can do. You get [e-mail] compatible with select apps.

[Laura]

Requires Google Gemini account.

[Andrew]

Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy.

[Laura]

Your data is like gold to hackers. They're selling your passwords, bank details and private messages. McAfee helps stop them. Secure VPN keeps your online activity private. AI powered text scam detector spots phishing attempts instantly. And with award winning antivirus you get top tier hacker protection. Plus you'll get up to $2 million in identity theft coverage. All for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com, cancel anytime terms apply. You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries, you wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns.

[Eric]

McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Laura]

This season a new hot deal has arrived at Metro. $25 a line for four lines. With all the data you need and four free Samsung Galaxy A15.5G phones, getting Metro's best deals is easy. No ID required, no activation fees.

[Eric]

Get a new number or keep your own.

[Laura]

It's up to you.

[Eric]

That's four lines.

[Laura]

Lines for 25 a line plus four free phones.

[Eric]

Visit a store or go online today.

[Laura]

Only at Metro by T Mobile.

[Eric]

When you join Metro plus tax for limited time and subject to change max.

[Laura]

One offer per account. All right, and we're back. And first of all, a theme in this part of the discussion and what I've titled this part of the discussion is why is this be everywhere? She's everywhere. Does she have a time Turner? I just feel like she's everywhere.

[Andrew]

This is her job. Hogwarts High Inquisitor. She gotta be everywhere.

[Eric]

Seriously.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Laura]

Well, unfortunately she is pretty much literally everywhere as we will see throughout the rest of the chapter. But to poor Neville and they go to Potions. There is this fight that very nearly breaks out because Malfoy at one point gloatingly suggests that Harry's gonna have to be carted off to St Mungo's soon to a special department that cares for people who've had their brains addled by magic. And of course we know to Neville that's his parents that Malfoy's making fun of. And of course Neville launches at Malfoy. Harry knows why. Nobody else seems to know why because Harry's, I think one of the few people who knows this, you know, particular backstory of Neville's at this point. But Harry and Ron do stop him before he can do any damage. Snape still takes points from Gryffindor like you do, of course, but what do we think of what Neville does here?

[Andrew]

I have no issues with it but I do think this scene is a good reminder to everybody that you never know what somebody is going through. So you, you, you can't say things like this. You can't insult, let's say, somebody's personal appearance. Like you never know what's hiding underneath the surface. So to me, that's what struck me about this. It's that this cuts deeply for Neville and Malfoy. I would like to think in his later years regretted saying such a thing but at the same time Malfoy is a bully. So like this is just what he does. But yeah, I, I have no issues with, with, with how Neville reacted. Malfoy deserved it.

[Eric]

I, I feel like it is ultimately a good thing that Harry and, and Ron have to pull him back if for no other reason than that Crab and Goyle were waiting and you know that they would hit Neville harder than he's able to get to. Dr. Nobody would have come out of that better off. But I think that the genuine flash of surprise on Draco's face shows that he himself was maybe not expecting the effect of his words like to Andrew's point. And that's unfortunately the kind of thing, it's the kind of reaction you need to keep giving Malfoy because he's never going to stop. He says wildly inappropriate things about everyone all the time later on the Quidditch pitch which actually does lead to a fist fight that gets Harry expelled permanently so from Quidditch. So I just feel like that unfortunately Malfoy's personality, that's the, the only way he's going to learn is by having people react the way Neville's reacting.

[Micah]

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's, it's a perfect example of where making a joke can have unintended consequences. And I don't think any of us for a second believe that it would be beneath Malfoy to poke fun at Neville's parents. I don't think in this moment he has a clue. I don't think it's ever been probably communicated to him by his father that Neville's parents are in St. Mungo's. I think it just happened to be one of those situations where he said something. And he's lucky that Harry and Ron were there because I do think he would have been able to get at Malfoy for a period before Crabbe and Goyle decided to step in because they only step in when they see Harry and Ron kind of hold back Neville. But one of the other things that I think is really important to mention here though is just the fact that Harry has stayed loyal to his word. To Dumbledore to not tell about Neville's parents, to not even in this moment. He could have explained to Ron and to Hermione why Neville did what he did. But he chooses not to. And I think that's one in Harry's column. Yeah, yeah. Versus like Dumbledore who just lies to Harry constantly.

[Eric]

Right.

[Andrew]

Harry can keep a secret. He knows the big impact this has on Neville. Honestly, if I was in Harry's shoes, I'd probably tell Ron and Hermione. They're my besties. We're the trio. Right? You tell your bestie everything. Pretty much. I would tell my bestie this.

[Laura]

I don't know. I feel like if somebody comes to me with something that is this horrific and asks me to keep it secret, I will keep that secret. If like, I don't know if it's something that's very much low stakes and isn't gonna have impact. If I like tell my partner, I'm like, oh, guess what Andrew told me today. Like, that's different.

[Andrew]

Guess what Andrew told me. Micah purrs when he leaves him.

[Eric]

I love that.

[Micah]

But, but that's well known, isn't it now?

[Andrew]

It is, yeah.

[Laura]

It's not a secret. Not a secret, no.

[Andrew]

I just, I just think that you can. Harry can trust Ron and Hermione with any secret. It. So by extension he's allowed to tell them this. Look, I, I respect Harry for keeping the secret, but I also think he, he could be more open with Ron and Hermione and it'd be okay.

[Laura]

Well, he's not being wormtaily. Okay.

[Eric]

Wow.

[Andrew]

Yikes. But did it have to get so personal? Laura?

[Micah]

This is part of Neville's glow up too, right?

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah.

[Micah]

In this book, this is one of the, one of the steps in that.

[Laura]

Direction I wonder here if Neville understands the family connections at play with his parents. Because, like, I genuinely agree. I don't think that Malfoy knows what happened to Neville's parents. And if he knows what happened to them, I doubt he knows that his auntie did it. But I wonder if Neville has made the connection that, like, not only is Malfoy saying this horrible thing, but he is the nephew of the woman who did it.

[Eric]

Could be.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

That makes it even worse even if Draco doesn't know.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Well, we finally do get the show that Harry was hoping for in terms of showdowns between professors. We have Umbridge v. Snape today in Snape's Potions class. And this just makes me think of the iconic montage In Order of the Phoenix that we get with this wonderful moment of Alan Rickman perfectly delivering the energy of this scene when Umbridge is like, you've applied for Defense against the Dark Arts X number of times and you've been unsuccessful. And he's like, obviously when I read over this for this chapter, it still made me smile because I thought back to that scene.

[Andrew]

It's classic.

[Laura]

It was so well done.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

But yeah, she, you know, obviously points out that while he has taught Potions consistently during his tenure at Hogwarts. And it's very interesting to me because with, with Trelawney and Snape, there is specific. There's a specific point made to make sure that both of them say exactly how many years they've been there, which they're both very important to Harry's story. So that's interesting from like a plot perspective. But when she asks Snape, why do you think the headmaster has not given you the position? And Snape says you should probably ask Dumbledore about that. But ultimately we know this is because the Chess master ain't gonna put Snape in the cursed position until the opportune moment. He loves his opportune moments.

[Eric]

He loves them.

[Laura]

How would he explain that to Umbridge?

[Eric]

Well, whatever Snape said to explain, it would have repercussions on her in that role. Like, because she's about to be ousted for that same curse. Like, if she has any misgivings about staying in the role, she's currently in teaching Dada at Hogwarts, she has another thing coming. But he's not. Why would he do her the favor of telling her that?

[Laura]

Well, Umbridge also kind of compliments Snape. She says this class seems pretty advanced for their level. But then she also suggests. Suggests that the Ministry would prefer strengthening Solutions. Be Removed from the curriculum and a strengthening solution is what it sounds like it would be. It's a potion that makes you physically stronger. Why do we think it is. The Ministry doesn't want students at Hogwarts learning this.

[Eric]

I don't know.

[Andrew]

They don't want the kids to turn into a version of the Hulk. Right. And take down Umbridge.

[Eric]

The Society for Hulk.

[Andrew]

Any other Ministry society. Yeah, that's. We get. What's the acronym there?

[Laura]

Society for Ship shp.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I like it. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean in terms of sort of complimenting Snape, I wonder if this is more set up for Harry and the reader to further think that Snape is a bad guy. We can't trust them. Umbridge is signing off on Snape. There's more proof that he sucks.

[Eric]

You know, that's. Yeah, that's not bad. Although if he were being openly horrible to one of his students, as he usually is, I'm sure she'd give him even higher marks. You know, somehow. Right. It's like this is a pretty innocent lesson from Snape's standpoint. They're just doing a thing. But yeah, if she saw him really in action, she would fall in love. I think.

[Laura]

I don't think that's what he wants.

[Eric]

No. He needs someone to take his mind off of love.

[Andrew]

What's worse, the love affair of Voldemort and Bellatrix or a hypothetical affair between Snape and Umbridge?

[Eric]

We need a Broadway show based on the Snape and Umbridge relationship.

[Laura]

Snape and Umbridge, Voldemort, Bellatrix is. Is horrible. Don't get me wrong.

[Andrew]

To my eye.

[Eric]

Oh, my God.

[Andrew]

You are the pink apple. To my eye.

[Laura]

No, thank you.

[Eric]

Well, I'm kind of upset that Snape just for like, not devil's advocate, but just like sneakily, like. Because Umbridge has a rare moment of being candid right now when she says the Ministry would prefer they maybe didn't do strengthening solutions. He could very reasonably ask her why that is and he doesn't. And because as a reader, you kind of want to know what you. You can. It's implied. You can guess what the reason is, as we all just did. But I wonder what Umbridge would say the reason is because that's only.

[Andrew]

Snake must know too.

[Eric]

Yeah, but that's like an indefensible kind of position. Like, it's a. As a comment. It's very damning for Umbridge to make that, because it's very. On the surface level, why wouldn't you want the students to be Able to brew something that would maybe help keep them out of danger.

[Andrew]

Yeah, she's kind of saying the quiet part out loud.

[Laura]

Yeah. And I think it's probably a case of Snape not asking the question because he already knows the answer.

[Andrew]

But I do think it would still be interesting to hear how Umbridge would spin it to Eric's point, because I agree. Snape. Snape can figure it out himself. He's a smart dude. But what happens when you put Umbridge on the spot like that?

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Micah]

I wonder how much direction, if any, Snape got from Dumbledore to just play along with Umbridge when he was being evaluated. Because we know how important Snape is to Dumbledore into this story. He doesn't want to risk somebody like him getting sacked.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Though I don't think that would ever happen with somebody like Umbridge because I feel like the Slytherin connection probably is important here, too.

[Laura]

I agree. Yeah. Because Umbridge is. You know, I'll say that I think she's kind of going easy on Snape by comparison to what she does to the other teachers. You know, even Trelawney, who we're about to talk about in a second. You know, we know she's not a great teacher. We know that she's probably not really qualified to be doing what she's doing. But Umbridge humiliates her in front of her students again and again and we haven't even gotten to the worst of it, you know?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

So speaking of, she's not having a great day because she got the results of her inspection back from Umbridge and she's not taking it well because it turns out she's on probation.

[Eric]

Yeah, it's. This hurts. This hurts to see.

[Andrew]

It does. It's interesting watching Hermione react to this, too, because Hermione knows just how big of a fraud that she is. But reading this scene and looking at the headlines these days, I wanted to just sort of make a real world connection statement. Trelawney is genuinely a fraud, at least part of the time. But what teachers are going through right now in the school is similar to what's happening to federal employees in the US Government, where they're being asked to justify their work and prove their work, prove themselves worthy. And I just wanted to mention this because there are times where these books really, we can really tie them to what's going on in the real world. And here's an example of something that's happening in these books and in the real world right now that we really haven't connected before.

[Eric]

Yeah. I mean, Umbridge is using the guise of, like, better educational reform. What she's really trying to do and what she's succeeding at is kneecapping Dumbledore. That's why she's appointed. That's what she wants to do. And it's unfortunate that, you know, somebody like Trelawney, who is admittedly a complete fraud, is. Nevertheless, she has feelings and they're hurt. And it makes her even less of an effective teacher if something like that.

[Andrew]

Were even possible, because then you're second guessing yourself.

[Eric]

Yeah, well, and.

[Micah]

And in both cases, you have individuals who are requesting this information that really don't have the criteria to even be in this position in the first place.

[Andrew]

Right.

[Eric]

Umbridge is not an educator. She is tasked with evaluating educators. Okay.

[Laura]

Yeah. She was appointed by the minister for being cutthroat. Yeah. Who is also not an educator.

[Micah]

Sounds similar to present day.

[Eric]

Nobody's qualified.

[Laura]

Lots, lots of real life connections that we can make here.

[Micah]

We won't go any further than that because.

[Andrew]

Thank you.

[Eric]

It would just depress us.

[Micah]

We're here to make magic.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah. Well, we can feel bad for Trelawny for what she's experiencing here. Even I think that it's a little bit overboard. You know, I think Trelawney, you know, you take her for what she is, but you also understand that she's been doing this for 16 years now. Right. And she's never been put on probation before now. So I can understand why it would be a shock to the system if you've been doing this job for all that time. And even if you know you're a fraud, but you've still been showing up and you've been doing well enough to not get put on probation. That sucks.

[Micah]

One of the things that stood out to me was that she is taking it out on her students a little bit. We see it with Neville, she's physically assaulting him. Not intentionally, but there is something to be said for that. However, I think a lot of what she is going through, the emotion that you're talking about, Laura, it's coming from the fact that it doesn't seem like she's getting any support. She's been loyal to Dumbledore for these 16 years. Where is Dumbledore? Like he should be stepping in here. Obviously he steps in at the most crucial of moments, but why not have him be supporting her in some capacity here? That's where I think a lot of her frustration, probably because she. She goes on this rant and she talks about you Know her dedication for, for so long of a period of time and it's like, yeah, I'd be pissed off too.

[Andrew]

To back up my boy Ad, is it possible that Albus has been talking with the professors off screen? Hey, just go along with what they're doing right now. We don't want to rock the Ministry boat too much so we just have to sort of ride this out for a little while. And maybe Dumbledore also met Trelawney down at the Hogshead to maybe get another prophecy out of her and comfort her.

[Eric]

Maybe they just missed that large group that was in there the other day. Yeah, I can think of another way in which Dumbledore failed though. Sorry, Andrew. And that's because Trelawney has been teaching for 16 years. We know she's a fraud, but she could be operating under the delusion that she's a good teacher because she's been doing it for so long at this point that it's become second nature. The problem is if she was a substandard version of, of, of teacher the way that that essentially Hermione encountered back in book three and we've all known her to be just bad at teaching the subject. You don't even need to be a real seer to be able to effectively convey these methods that they're using. It's just she doesn't, we never see Harry take it seriously that, that she actually is inspiring within anyone other than Lavender and Parvati the desire to actually use this subject. It is a full on branch of magic. And so Dumbledore should have long ago given her some level of coaching. Like it's. We understand she's only there because she is strategically valuable because she heard the prophecy and that could. She could be tortured into revealing it to Voldemort which would be bad. But if you're going to have somebody be this teacher here like go and give them the education and the skills to be able to actually teach the subject that you're appointing them to. Otherwise the second that a evaluator comes in they're going to do exactly what Umbridge did. I'm not saying Umbridge did the right thing, but you know, we can see why Trelawney is now in hot water for not being a great teacher even on, even at surface level. At the very least, if Trelawney were a good teacher, you'd have more students rising up in outrage against Umbridge for putting Trelawney on probation. As it stands, that doesn't happen.

[Laura]

No, I mean as a student you really couldn't come to her defense because it's true.

[Micah]

I do think it's important, though, that you differentiated between the fact that she's not a fraud as a seer, because she is a seer. Right. She's a fraud when it comes to teaching. But how is that any different from somebody like Hagrid? And we could talk about that, but Hagrid is not a good teacher either. But we don't. I mean, we do see him ultimately suffer the same fate as Trelawney. Right, that's such.

[Eric]

No, that's such a good point. I. I forgot. But the way you put it is. Right, she's not a fraud as a seer, except she thinks that she is. Dumbledore has allowed her to think that she is a fraud, which, if he had actually just told her, hey, you made a legitimate prophecy. I can't tell you what it was, but you did make one. I think that would have, 16 years ago, gone a long way to boosting her confidence, which she lacks so deeply and maybe would have helped her on her journey to being a good, competent teacher.

[Laura]

Well, and we also know she makes a second correct prophecy in book three. And I'm guessing Dumbledore never tells her.

[Eric]

This, but that would be huge news. But she doesn't remember making them. And so as far as she knows, she is. She's operating under the illusion, or the illusion that she is a false seer and could not live up to ancestry line.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, I think probably she kind of folds under the societal expectation that a seer should be able to just predict the future on the spot, at command. Kind of like Umbridge tried to do. And probably the reality is that maybe that's not how it works with seers. Maybe it's really actually normal for seers to only have a handful of visions in their lifetime, you know? Yeah, but we never get really any clarity on how that works.

[Eric]

Yeah. And I mean, no one alive today probably remembers, like, a seer that they knew and how it worked.

[Laura]

Yeah. Well, moving forward a little bit to the main event of the chapter, we find the trio in the common room. Fred and George are onto another phase of their skiving snack boxes. And we'll chat about that a little bit in Odds and Ends. But after everyone has gone to bed and only the trio remain in the common room, Sirius just appears in the fireplace. And he confirms for the trio that, at least from the order side of the equation, they were overheard in the Hogshead by Mundungus. And even though he gives them a Little crap for starting an illegal self defense group. He's looking at Harry with pride. He doesn't have a problem with what they're doing. He's just very quick to tell them. Oh sweet children. This is so cute. Clearly you've never formed an illegal society before. Let me help you.

[Andrew]

You've got a lot to learn, Hermione.

[Laura]

Yeah, she does.

[Eric]

Should have done it in the Three Broomsticks.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's. I loved that he said that to her. And I think it's great that you did this. But Molly doesn't. So Ron, she wants you to be better.

[Laura]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Eric]

The whole Molly thing is really interesting to me because she Sirius is relaying the message that Molly wants Ron to not participate in this secret group. She knows that Harry's behind it with Hermione's help. She knows that the three of them are putting this together because all that info that you would have heard from Dong and she does not approve. She tells to Ron via Sirius there will be plenty of time later for him to learn defensive magic. Which means in a few years. My question for you guys is, is Molly in the same order the Phoenix as everyone else that's talking about Voldemort being back? There is no three years from now. There's plenty of time later to learn defense. It is an outrage what Umbridge is doing to class.

[Andrew]

It's a scandal.

[Eric]

These students need to learn defense. I understand Molly is worried, but how can you possibly justify her giving this message to Ron to just not participate because that puts him in harm's way. That's everything she's hoping doesn't happen to any of her children are going to happen if they can't defend themselves.

[Micah]

To layer onto your question, Eric, how is her request any different than Percy's?

[Eric]

Rough.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Because just the messenger, right?

[Andrew]

Molly's stuck between a rock and a hard place. She's part of the resistance, but she's also trying to be a mother. And I think that's probably a really difficult position for her to be in. The mother of a child who's also best friends with Harry Potter. Like there's a lot that's true at play here.

[Laura]

I think the thing is, I think where Molly goes wrong here is she doesn't offer any alternatives. Like to come at him and be like, hey, I understand. I want you to be able to help too. Let's talk about some other ways that you can help that are not as dangerous as this.

[Eric]

Like she's downplaying the threat.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Is the problem maybe not, you know, like, fully consciously, but that's. That's what it amounts to. And I think the difference between. To answer your question, Mike, I like. Or to try to. Because it's a great question. What the difference is between what Percy says to do and what Molly says to do is that Percy tells Ron to go straight to Umbridge and confess everything Harry's doing.

[Micah]

That's fair.

[Eric]

But Molly, in telling Ron not to join Harry and Hermione in the Resistance, is essentially telling him to not be an effective resister, is to lay down and allow the takeover of Hogwarts and everything to happen is to be in some way complicit in the disarming of students in a time of great terror.

[Andrew]

So she could have said something like, hey, I don't want you to do this at the school. How about you come home? How about you come to 12th Grimmauld Place and we'll teach y'all some lessons.

[Eric]

There over Christmas break?

[Andrew]

Christmas break, Yeah.

[Laura]

A Christmas idea.

[Eric]

Well, Harry could learn from Lupin again. It would be absolutely amazing.

[Andrew]

That would sell Harry on the idea, I'm sure.

[Eric]

That would be so good. Hey, guys, why don't.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Micah]

I don't think it's necessarily a fair place to put Sirius in, either, delivering this message on her behalf. But I do think, though, at the same time, it speaks to what was brought up about the fact. Andrew, you mentioned this. Molly is in a tough spot. Right. She can't convey this because she's on guard duty right now and we know what she's protecting. But also, her family is so immersed in the Order, Arthur is in constant danger, we don't know what Bill and Charlie necessarily are up to. But the fact that. Go back to the woes of Mrs. Weasley earlier in this book. She's trying, in this moment to do everything that she can to protect her family. And she recognizes the risk that somebody like Umbridge poses at Hogwarts and she doesn't want Ron stepping in it. So she's trying to control the situation as much as she can.

[Laura]

True. It is a good point. Because, you know, as you pointed out, literally everyone in the Weasley family is in danger in one way or another. And she's probably thinking, at least four of my children are at Hogwarts, which is probably one of the safest places for them to be as long as they kind of just keep their heads down and mind their business. So she. It's probably out of frustration, too. I have to imagine that she's like, can you Just not put yourself in danger, please. I have too much to worry about.

[Andrew]

Yeah, 100%. None of us are parents here, so I want to include this comment from Michelle, who's listening live on our Patreon tonight. She said, I identify very much with Molly in this book. As a mom, I would protect my kids at all costs, even if they are mad at me about it. She just is terrified something will happen to them. It is the worst nightmare.

[Laura]

Totally.

[Micah]

Yeah. And we've mentioned this in a couple of episodes too, but Molly lost two brothers in the previous war and that has to be sitting in the back of her mind at all times.

[Eric]

And they could defend themselves 100%.

[Laura]

Yeah. Well, before Sirius can be much help in figuring out other locations for them to have DA practice, a certain stubby fingered hand appears in the fireplace. Kind of like reaching and raking through the coals. Sirius even seems to sense that it's coming in the fire. They see him looking around, and looking.

[Andrew]

Around he felt a little tickle on his backside.

[Laura]

Oh God, please. I don't. I don't need to imagine Umbridge doing that either. But this is just confirmation again of something. Harry was told a few pages ago that the FLU network, just like every other channel of communication at Hogwarts, is being monitored. This is not a way for them to talk to Sirius. It's not a way for them to talk to anyone unless they go to Umbridge's office, but they'll do that later. How much information do we think Umbridge is able to get this way? Can she see and not hear? Can she see and hear everything?

[Eric]

It's weird. Maybe she. Because Sirius looks around a minute before it happens. Like he hears her come in the room kind of thing. Like maybe.

[Andrew]

So Sirius down the chimney.

[Eric]

Yeah, like. Well, right. She's probably making a lot of noise. Yeah. But no, I. The. The thing I appreciate the most is that Sirius has some level of sixth sense about it. And because he doesn't have that sixth sense sooner, it indicates to me that she just joined the call or the conference or whatever so that she would have heard very little, but enough to know who it was who was speaking to the Gryffindor common room.

[Micah]

My sense was always that she could sense that the Floo network was being utilized in that particular part of the castle. So she knew somebody in Gryffindor Tower was utilizing the Floo network. But beyond that, I don't think she knew who it was or what kind of conversation was going on.

[Andrew]

I agree with that take because it's described as her kind of, like, thrashing around trying to grab hold of something, which implies to me, she doesn't have a full handle on who is speaking, what is being said. She's. She's still trying to reach for it, grab it somehow, if that's even possible.

[Laura]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Like, would it be possible for her to touch Sirius somehow via Flu Network?

[Andrew]

There's a lot I would like to know about how this works.

[Eric]

I think she could pull him through the fire into her office.

[Laura]

Terrible.

[Eric]

And then kill him.

[Micah]

That would be bad for her, honestly. Well, yeah, it wouldn't go well for her.

[Eric]

You just don't know, Right? Yeah. The implication, I think, because her hands, like, are swatting at him or, like, trying to grab him. I think she could put, like, the funniest way, the funniest use of the flu powder is the. The toast in the mouth of Amos Diggory. But, like, it can get a lot more sinister than that.

[Laura]

Yeah, definitely. Well, that's the end of our chapter, but we will get into our MVP of the week and some odds and ends here. So, for MVP of the Week, I have a question for y'all related to this very topic of Umbridge coming through the fire. What is the best way to react to Umbridge crashing your secret flu call with your escaped convict convict godfather?

[Andrew]

I would try to slice her hand off and then throw water on the fire.

[Eric]

You just have a stray knife.

[Andrew]

I'd grab the sword of Gryffindor and thrash it about. Yeah, and then throw water on the fire.

[Eric]

Yeah, that could close the call. That would be like, hanging up. I like it. I have a. More of a comedic response. Oh, shit, it's the popo. And run tripping over the back of the armchair behind you for me.

[Micah]

Look, it's three on one. Pull that bitch to the flu and light her ass up.

[Andrew]

God.

[Laura]

My goodness. This is so. This went so much more violently than I imagined.

[Eric]

Forward to all the bleeping that has to happen.

[Micah]

I was gonna say maybe, like, have Crookshanks lick her fingers and then she wouldn't stick her hand in there anymore.

[Laura]

But even she likes cats.

[Micah]

She likes cats.

[Eric]

Yeah. Oh, Crookshanks could get out of that.

[Laura]

See, I was gonna go the Hogwarts legacy route here and cast Glacius on the fire to freeze the fire as well as Umbridge.

[Eric]

I like that a lot.

[Micah]

To be, like, PC version of all this.

[Laura]

Yeah. Try that again, pg.

[Micah]

Sorry.

[Laura]

And now we'll get into some odds and ends here quickly. First thing I wanted to call out the sloth grip roll in Quidditch. This was something that Angelina called out as them needing to practice. And I just got a kick out of imagining what this would look like. We've talked about this before, but the founders of Hogwarts thinking boys were untrustworthy. There is this moment in the chapter where Ron tries to charge up to the girls dormitory and the stairs turn into a slide which he thinks is unfair. But you know, Hermione is able to give him, I think, some like pretty contextually appropriate reasoning for why that happens based on when the castle was built. Crookshanks, very interestingly during this sequence where Sirius is in the fire, is trying to get his face close to Sirius and at one point Hermione even has to scoop him away from the fire to keep him from singeing his whiskers. We've talked about before how Sirius and Crookshanks have a special bond and we don't get to see it a ton. But in moments where these characters are in the same space, Crookshanks takes a liking to Sirius that I don't think he takes to anyone else.

[Eric]

Even Hermione's really sweet.

[Laura]

Yeah, he's very sweet.

[Eric]

Yeah. Crookshanks was Sirius's own only connection to like Hogwarts and the students when he had to be still outside the castle.

[Laura]

Yeah. And we briefly mentioned this in the discussion, but Fred and George are in the common room and they seem to have found a new way around all of Hermione's rules about advertising and testing their giving snack boxes. And it's to test them and demonstrate them on themselves. So they are literally demonstrating over and over again puking pastels. So one of the.

[Eric]

Gross.

[Laura]

Yeah, one of the twins is just repeatedly barfing into a bucket and the. And the other twin gives him the other tab so that he gets better again. And he's just doing this over and over again. But they're making a ton of money and even Hermione has to admit begrudgingly that they're not breaking any rules that.

[Andrew]

She also says that their skill set is useless when Harry wonders why they hadn't done better on their owls. And I just found this so ignorant and book smart of her to say they are street smart. And I know the activity that they're participating in right now isn't the sexiest thing to be doing.

[Eric]

That's the opposite of that.

[Andrew]

But you got to look at the bigger picture here. They're inventing very original products that students are entertained by and yeah, they didn't read about these in a book, but it doesn't mean they can be successful with this skill set.

[Eric]

It's just a failure of imagination on Hermione's part. If she can't find something to get them to stop right now, she says they're not breaking any rules she could find. Guess what? It's. What about disturbing the peace? They're retching repeatedly. The smell has got to be awful. The sound is distracting. Kids are doing homework in the comment or trying to. And it's like, there has to be some level of disturbing the peace or just being frigging gross that, like, I don't. If I'm not even a prefect, I would go up to them and get them to stop somehow. Like, this is just awful.

[Laura]

Well, we also like to ask a question of the week of our supporters over on patreon.com mugglecast so we're going to move into the links line now. And this is again our weekly question for listeners [e-mail] mugglecast and this week's question is, what did Mundungus Fletcher do to get banned from the Hogshead? Twenty years previously, we learned that Mundungus was disguised as a witch in the Hogshead. That's how he overheard what Harry and company were doing. And he's in disguise while he's monitoring Harry because he was banned from the sketchiest pub in town 20 years ago. Whatever this is, there is a grudge that runs deep here because it does not seem like Aberforth is very disturbing, discerning about his clientele. I think he's happy to have anyone in there.

[Andrew]

Let's hear some theories then. Xavier said, my guess, knowing Dung and Aberforth, is that Dung tried to steal and sell one of Aberforth's ghosts. Seeing this, Aberforth exploded and let out a century's worth of rage and anger. Whoa. He hexed Dung out of his mind and a battle broke out, which gave the pup its unique aura of unkemptness. And at the end of the battle, Dung gets banned from the pub. The message here is, never mess with Aberforth's goat in front of me.

[Micah]

Ever.

[Eric]

Wow. Robert wrote. Obviously, Dung told Aberforth that dogs are better than goats. He barely left with his head after that.

[Micah]

Zachary, perhaps. Zachariah Smith says, as vile as Mondongus is, I like to believe he was doing the right thing this time by trying to liberate the poor goats. And by liberate, I mean steal them to make profit yet saving them from the perverse accusations against Aberforth in the.

[Eric]

Process saving their honor.

[Laura]

The goat's honor. Rachel says it absolutely had something to do with goats. So many goats. Answers to this question. But don't worry, there are some non goat related answers coming up.

[Eric]

I love how you separated them.

[Laura]

Yes, I wanted to. Yeah, I wanted us to be able to run through all the goat answers because I knew that was going to be like half of them at least. So Rachel goes on to say maybe instead of stealing one, he slipped some goat hairs into Polyjuice potion and gave it to Aberforth. So Aberforth could be a goat. Obviously that didn't go well since it's not meant to be for animal transformation. Furious and humiliated Aberforth band Mundungus. Oh.

[Andrew]

Jason Ning, Katie and Justin shared various theories about Dung stealing, selling, offending and being caught alone with the goats and also petting the goats.

[Laura]

Petting in quotation, petting in quotes.

[Andrew]

So those are all the goat answers. How about the non goat responses? Eric?

[Eric]

Yeah, Badger 4th says probably stole a cauldron. And yeah, seems simple, but seems plausible. And Eleanor says, I suspect it was something very mundane. Fencing stolen goods, but that's not so fun. I have an image in my head that won't go away of party animal Mundungus dancing on the bar and swinging the chandeliers. I think he could have a secret alter ego that he comes out at times but is perhaps not quite the right vibe for the Hogshead. That's fun.

[Micah]

Angela said Aberforth was doing some inventory in a different room when Mundungus snuck in, set up an unsanctioned karaoke event. He locked Aberforth in the stock room for a few hours while the Hogshead Inn turned into the wild party place to be. Mundungus even decorated it all with brightly colored decorations. It was so popular, cheerful and full of witches and wizards having so much fun. Aberforth was furious when he finally got out that he banned Bondungus and Mundungus was heartbroken, which led him to become who we now know today.

[Laura]

Wow. Rochelle says he was definitely nicking things, mugs, etc to resell.

[Andrew]

And finally Emily said he got caught trying to sell stolen crystal goblets that he had previously stolen from the Hogshead. Aberforth wasn't even mad about the theft, but at dung's complete stupidity. And the Ministry is still holding the goblets for evidence, which explains the dinghy glasses there now.

[Laura]

Oh yeah, that explains The Dirty Glass.

[Eric]

It's a theft deterrent. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Laura]

I love the idea that the Hogshead at one point was fancy. No, no, no. It was still decrepit as hell, but had these fancy goblets.

[Eric]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew]

Great responses as always, everyone. And listeners, don't forget you can participate in the Links Line benefit every week by becoming a [e-mail] mugglecast there's a link in the show notes, so please check it out. If you have any feedback about today's discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to mugglecastmail.com we'll be having our next Muggle Mail episode at episode 700. So just about a month away, we'll celebrate that milestone episode of the show, read some emails, and we'll plan a fun segment or two to celebrate the occasion. Next week, Order of The Phoenix, Chapter 18, Dumbledore's army will be discussed. Now it's time for quizzage.

[Eric]

This week's Quizzet question was in the mid 20th century United Kingdom pint glasses replaced. What type of drinking vessel commonly made of glass, ceramic or pewter? The correct answer is tankard. Everybody, tankards. So Hagrid's tankard is only a few years out of date and 36% of people say they did not look that up. And this week's winners are. Buff Daddy Granger. Things A Healthy Breeze, the Fire Whiskey Ordering Prefect, the Hungry Hungry, Hufflepuff Locke in Lockhart and Hagrid's Pint. Glass of mead. Doesn't have a great ring to it. I agree.

[Micah]

Where's Tofu Tom?

[Eric]

Tofu Tom must have taken the week off. We saw him in the Slug Club. Oh, you know what? It might have been an incorrect guess.

[Laura]

And now you put Tofu Tom on blast.

[Eric]

I didn't want to put him on blast. I just.

[Micah]

I love Tofu Tom. I love. It's always so nice when the Quizzage winners at the very end, you hear, and Tofu Tom, it's like it's the completion of another week's worth of Muggle cast.

[Eric]

I want. I can't. Wow, that's really touching.

[Laura]

Yeah, the show's not complete is what Micah's saying.

[Eric]

And Tofutom will want to know what next week's Kwizzitch question is. Okay, what bird did the ancient Greeks, ancient Romans and Genghis Khan all use to send their messages? It's relevant to this past chapter. Submit your answer to us on the Mugglecast website mugglecast.comkwizzitch or if you're already on the Mugglecast website, maybe checking out our Must Listens page or our transcripts, click on Quizzes from the top Main.

[Andrew]

Nav if you would like more podcasting from the four of us, check out our other weekly podcasts, what the Hype and Millennial for additional pop culture and real world talk. In our latest episode of what the Hype, we're talking Nintendo Switch, which just turned 8 years old, and we're looking at what we would like to see from the Switch 2, which comes out later this year. Then over on Millennial, we're discussing why Kindle users are mad about how Amazon is treating their ebook, and we're talking tipping culture in America. These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you. Listener support is the only reason we've been able to podcast for two decades and counting, and there are a few great ways to help us out. Visit mugglecastmerch.com to get official Mugglecast gear, including Laura's pants, hats, hoodies, T shirts, all kinds of things. Apple Podcast users can subscribe to Mugglecast Gold, which gets you ad free and early releases of Mugglecast, plus two bonus Mugglecast installments every month. Month and then for those benefits and more. [e-mail] mugglecast and you'll get access to the benefits I just shared, plus our live streams, links, line participation, a physical gift every year, a personal video message from one of the four of us that we record just for you, and you also get access to our Facebook and Discord communities. Lots of benefits to check [e-mail] mugglecast another great way to help us out is by leaving a review of the show in your favorite podcast to app or telling one of your Muggle friends about the show. No matter how you support us, we really appreciate it. We're just an independent podcast and we're looking for support any way you are willing to help us out. Thanks everybody for listening. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

We'll see you next week.

[Laura]

Bye.

[Andrew]

Watch your fireplaces. Bye.