Subtle As A Freight Train (HBP Chapter 16, 'A Very Frosty Christmas')

Summary

MuggleCast: "Subtle As A Freight Train" (HBP Chapter 16, 'A Very Frosty Christmas')

Episode Date: February 17, 2026
Guests: Martha and Alice (Real Weird Sisters Podcast)
Main Theme: A detailed, humorous, and insightful re-read of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 16: "A Very Frosty Christmas," focusing on family dynamics, character interactions, and the growing darkness in the wizarding world.

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Episode Overview

This episode of MuggleCast dives deep into Chapter 16 of Half-Blood Prince, with special guests Martha and Alice from the Real Weird Sisters podcast. The panel explores the Weasleys’ tense family Christmas, Harry’s persistent suspicions about Draco and Snape, the fraught interactions with the Minister of Magic, and the intrigue of Remus Lupin’s undercover work among werewolves. With their trademark humor, the hosts dissect character motivations, highlight overlooked details, and share their own first-time reader reactions.

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Key Discussions & Insights

1. Guest Introduction & Podcast Collaboration (02:00–05:00)

• The Real Weird Sisters: Martha and Alice discuss their nearly ten-year journey podcasting—including their current format of analyzing Harry Potter literally "one page at a time." (03:09)
• Origins and Connection: Both guests were early fans of MuggleCast and recount nostalgic memories of podcasting’s early days. (04:06)

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2. Opening Scene: Christmas Prep and Sibling Teasing (06:10–18:00)

• Harry and Ron Peeling Sprouts: The mundane and very “British” task launches a humorous debate about what “sprouts” really are—settling on Brussels sprouts after much speculation. (13:06–18:31)
  • "Five Americans try to figure out what this means." – Martha (15:24)
• Fred and George’s Antics: Debate over which twin is meaner as George makes Ron cut himself (“Whoopsie daisy!”), sparking playful sibling chaos.
  • The group discusses whether George's act was intentional and reflects on the brothers’ dynamic. (14:45–16:20)
• Ron and Lavender: The consensus is that Ron is a lackluster boyfriend, likely giving nothing but snogging “coupons” in return for Lavender’s efforts.
  • "His presence is enough of a present for her." – Eric (00:42)

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3. Family Dynamics: Fleur, Mrs. Weasley & Gendered Stereotypes (19:27–24:51)

• Fleur vs. Mrs. Weasley: Focus on mutual passive aggression, with the group critiquing the chapter’s reinforcement of the “mother-in-law/daughter-in-law” stereotype.
  • "It's very uncharacteristic of Mrs. Weasley when you consider the way she's portrayed the other 95% of the time." – Laura (21:40)
• Noted that perhaps J.K. Rowling leans on common tropes, and that even narratively, the characters are locked in a “cold war” exacerbated by the holidays.
• Reflection on possible gaps in Harry’s perspective as narrator—maybe Mrs. Weasley did make a sweater for Fleur, but she didn’t wear it. (24:20)

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4. Remus Lupin’s Mission and the Werewolves (25:20–32:37)

• Lupin the 'De-Influencer': Remus’s undercover work among werewolves, especially the threat of Fenrir Greyback, is analyzed for its dark implications and metaphorical resonance.
  • "Remus is the original de-influencer, the OG." – Laura (25:22)
  • "Greyback is like the stereotypical werewolf... how frustrating for Lupin that the one who turned him into a werewolf embodies everything he is against." – Alice (29:23)
• Symbolism and Social Commentary: Comparison of being a werewolf to real-world experiences of stigma (e.g., AIDS crisis), suggesting this could be fruitfully explored in the upcoming TV adaptation.
• Missed Narrative Opportunity: Regret that Lupin and Greyback never get a direct confrontation, despite set-up for a powerful personal conflict. (30:32)

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5. Half-Blood Prince Mystery & Harry's Biases (33:04–38:38)

• Harry’s Theories: Harry tries to connect the Half-Blood Prince’s identity to his father, but Remus elegantly shoots this down.
  • "Your dad was a pureblood and he never once asked any of us to call him a prince." – Remus, as paraphrased by the hosts (33:40)
• Harry’s Bias Against Snape: The hosts and guests analyze Lupin’s gentle confrontation of Harry’s "prejudice” against Snape.
  • "His hate clouds his judgment." – Martha (34:48)
  • "Lupin is the only one that can tell Harry this, that can talk to Harry like this. It's so crucial to hear that from a friend." – Eric (36:12)
• Snape’s Potions Mastery: Discussion on how Harry fails to appreciate Snape’s skill due to his own grudges and because Snape isn’t a good teacher to him.

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6. Arthur Weasley’s Support (40:32)

• Arthur's Trust: Arthur actually raids Malfoy Manor based on Harry’s suspicions—a show of trust rarely extended by adults to teens in the series.
  • "It's admirable Arthur actually went and checked the house. Did what he could." – Martha (40:55)

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7. Percy and Scrimgeour’s Christmas “Surprise” (46:42–56:00)

• The Not-So-Subtle Setup: Rufus Scrimgeour tries to feign a casual visit, but is "as subtle as a freight train" in requesting a walk with the Chosen One.
  • "Hey, young man with the lightning bolt scar and the green eyes, please come help me find the garden." – Laura, parodying Scrimgeour (07:02)
• Political Dynamics: Analysis of Scrimgeour’s political motivations and how thoroughly he misreads Harry, especially by dangling the Auror career as bait.
  • "If he's taking his cues from Percy about how to appeal to Harry, that is like the wrong person to be getting that guidance from." – Laura (49:38)
  • "I don't think Scrimgeour is a bad guy, but his inability to adapt is enough to put the nail in the coffin between them." – Eric (53:40)
• Harry’s Defiance: Harry’s refusal to publicly back the Ministry, preferring to remain "Dumbledore's man," is sharply contrasted with Dumbledore’s own manipulation of Harry.
  • "We see Harry really reject the idea of being used as a tool… and then we'll find out Dumbledore is using Harry as a tool." – Alice (52:02)

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8. Best Lines & Standout Moments (57:25–58:43)

Notable Quotes:

• "You're making Stan a scapegoat just like you want to make me a mascot." — Harry to Scrimgeour [57:25]
  • "That line goes so hard." – Eric (57:36)
• "I'd rather have [maggots from Kreacher] than the necklace." – Harry, re: Lavender’s gift [58:03]
• "And others might say it's your duty to check that people really are Death Eaters before you chuck them in prison." – Harry (58:23)
• The hosts marvel at the loopy “My Sweetheart” necklace font, a highlight of the American edition. (45:03)

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Memorable & Humorous Moments

• "Five Americans Try to Figure Out What Sprouts Are."
• The ongoing faux-mystery of Fred vs. George’s relative "meanness."
• The speculation about Mrs. Weasley possibly making Fleur a sweater, but Fleur refusing to wear it.
• The team’s desire to see “maxed” (Max TV) versions of the Percy/Weasley blowup and Scrimgeour confrontation.
• Repeated callbacks to Laura’s phrase “as subtle as a freight train,” now an episode running joke.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction of Guests and Real Weird Sisters Podcast: 02:00–05:00
• Sprouts, Family Pranks: 13:06–18:31
• Fleur/Mrs. Weasley Dynamic: 19:27–24:51
• Remus, Werewolves, Symbolism: 25:20–32:37
• Half-Blood Prince & Bias: 33:04–38:38
• Arthur Weasley’s Raid: 40:32
• Scrimgeour’s Visit & Showdown: 46:42–56:00
• Best Lines & MVPs: 57:25–58:43

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Conclusion

The episode is a lively, thoughtful group read that balances nostalgia, critique, and humor. Listeners come away with fresh perspectives on the characterization of Scrimgeour, the tension between public and private influence, the stubbornness of teenaged Harry, the undercurrents of family and gender expectations, and the overlooked narrative richness of secondary characters like Remus and Greyback. The panel’s affection for the series and for each other is always present, ensuring an engaging discussion for new readers and longtime fans alike.

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Credits

MuggleCast Hosts: Andrew, Eric, Laura
Special Guests: Martha & Alice (Real Weird Sisters Podcast)
Notable Quotes Attributed Throughout

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Martha]

Did Ron even get something for lavender? That's what's really heartbreaking here.

[Laura]

My headcanon is that he did not.

[Andrew]

He says in the chapter, we don't do much talking, we just do snogging. Like, that's his gift to lavender. It's more kissing.

[Eric]

His presence is enough of a present for her.

[Martha]

He probably gave her a paper coupon for like five minute makeout session. Like coupons.

[Andrew]

Welcome to mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Laura]

And I'm Laura.

[Andrew]

And we're your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming tv. So make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app and you will never miss an episode. And this week, bundle up for some social iciness because we're discussing chapter 16 of Half Blood Prince. A Very Frosty Christmas. And this week we have two guests joining us. Martha and Alice from the Harry Potter podcast, the Real Weird Sisters. Hi to both of you.

[Alice]

Hi, I'm Martha and I have Alice. We'll just talk at the same time.

[Martha]

That's how we do it on our podcast. We talk at the exact same time. Thank you guys so much for having us.

[Eric]

Yeah. You guys are sisters in real life, right?

[Laura]

We are.

[Martha]

We are. If I took my glasses off, you'd be able to tell better.

[Alice]

Yeah, we're real and we're weird and we're also real weird.

[Laura]

Okay.

[Alice]

So, yeah.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Martha]

We're also real weird sisters. Yes.

[Eric]

Wow.

[Andrew]

How long have you two been doing the Real Weird Sisters podcast?

[Alice]

So we started the podcast almost 10 years ago, 2016. It was like April. So we're almost at our 10 year anniversary now.

[Eric]

Wow.

[Andrew]

Oh, congrats.

[Laura]

Congrats.

[Andrew]

That's exciting.

[Alice]

Thanks. Yeah, we're not quite to the level of Mugglecast, but we're getting there.

[Eric]

You'll get there. You'll get there.

[Andrew]

But you two do something that maybe we're gonna have to do one day. You go page by page through the Harry Potter books. Tell us about that.

[Martha]

That's what we're doing now. We started out as a book club, and of course, that took us four years to get through the 200 chapters. And then we kind of figured out what to do next. We started doing character studies for a while. We did take fives, which is where we talk about the movies five minutes at a time. And then now we've branched out in even more. We're doing one page at a time. And the way that we do that is we roll the dice for what book we're gonna do. We have a D7. Well, actually, I roll a D8, and if I get eight, then we reroll, and then we roll the rest of the dice to see what the digits are for the page number that we're going to discuss the next week. And it's very goofy. It's really cool ideas.

[Andrew]

That's such a cool idea. Yeah. So it's random. It's random.

[Alice]

It is pretty random.

[Martha]

Somehow. We've gotten a lot of threes. I don't know why, but there's always.

[Eric]

That one number that just crops up more often.

[Martha]

Exactly.

[Andrew]

And I've listened to a couple episodes of your show, and I've heard some impressions of the character, so I invite you to do those impressions on this podcast as well. We love impressions here. Like, which of you did McGonagall?

[Alice]

Martha does all the character voices, and I only do Jim Dale as the narrator on the page, so.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Martha]

Yeah, okay.

[Alice]

But Martha's pretty good at her characters, and I don't even really attempt them, so.

[Andrew]

So, okay.

[Martha]

Alice does do a pretty good flir, and she's in this chapter, so I think that that might have to come out at some point.

[Andrew]

Alice and Martha actually also used to be mugglecast listeners, too. Right. Alice, you were saying you listened starting back in 2005.

[Alice]

Yeah, I was a big fan when I was in high school, and I would listen religiously every week. I put it on my desktop computer and study, do my homework while I was listening. I don't think I was actually doing a lot of studying, but, yeah, I was a huge fan. And that was way before people knew what podcasts were. And especially growing up in Montana, I was, like, probably the only person in Montana listening to podcasts. So, yeah, it was, like, so exciting when we heard from you guys. And we're really excited to be on the show.

[Eric]

Aw.

[Andrew]

Well, I'm glad you both were excited to come on. You both were studying air quotes and listening and we were studying air quotes and recording. Or at least I was fake studying same.

[Alice]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Well, listeners, if you love Mugglecast as much as Ron and lavender love PDA, we invite you to support us at patreon.com mugglecast and we'll hook you up with bonus episodes of the show, add free episodes, live streams, a monthly zoom hangout with the Mugglecasters, and lots more. We do have a new bonus Mugglecast episode coming this week, right, Eric?

[Eric]

That's right. A nod towards Valentine's Day. We recently were discussing the topic or saying, hey, we should talk about our personal romantic history in terms of Hogwarts House and which houses we find are most romantically compatible among people that we ourselves have dated. So it's going to be a little autobiographical discussion about sort of how the dating somebody translates well or less well to, depending on what Hogwarts House they are. So it's going to be a great bonus, a lot of fun over there on Patreon.

[Andrew]

Awesome. Well, there are some other great ways to support us. To help us run this independent podcast, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit mugglecastmerch.com to buy shirts, hats, glassware, and more. And now it's time for chapter by chapter. We are discussing Half blood prince, chapter 16, a very frosty Christmas.

[Eric]

Andrew, I'm so glad you could join us on this one because the last time we talked about this chapter, you could not be found. It was Mugglecast 404 titled Furry Little Problems and it aired on February 4, 2019. Here's a clip of from our last discussion on this chapter.

[Martha]

What you're looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I've collected.

[Laura]

It is from Mugglekast episode 404.

[Andrew]

You're led to believe initially that Scrimgeour is this nice dude who convinced his colleague to come home for the holidays and see his family and make amends, but then later learn that he's just there to talk to Harry.

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah. He's like as subtle as a freight train. Here.

[Eric]

Or just in the area?

[Martha]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Oh, hey young man. You with the lightning bolt scar and the green eyes. Please come help me find the garden. This memory is everything.

[Eric]

So Laura compares Rufus Scrimgeour's actions to being as subtle as a freight train, a phrase that she seven years later, while developing this discussion, uses, again, just a very specific, hilarious phrase I'd never heard of before.

[Laura]

That's so funny. Wow, I can't believe that stuck with me after all this.

[Martha]

Do you use that phrase a lot in your life?

[Eric]

No.

[Laura]

I mean, not unless it's warranted.

[Martha]

Not at all. Unless it's about Rufus Scrimjerk for this chapter.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah. I mean, hey, if somebody's being as subtle as a freight train, I guess I will call them that. But yeah, no, that's.

[Martha]

It does describe it accurately.

[Laura]

It really does.

[Martha]

Very apt metaphor. Or, I guess, simile.

[Laura]

Well, that's a really fun way to get back into this chapter. So, of course, we are opening up at the borough right ahead of Christmas. Harry and Ron are stuck peeling sprouts by hand, which is very important setup for the interaction that's gonna happen here with Fred and George. And while they're doing this, Harry is filling Ron in on what he overheard between SN Snape and Drago outside of Slughorn's party the other night. And Ron kind of answers Harry or reacts to him in somewhat of a Hermione Ish way by giving the kind of reasonable answer of, don't you think that it's possible that Snape was just trying to figure out what he's up to and that's why he was offering to help him? And I was wondering if, as readers, we remember how we felt towards Draco when reading this for the first time. Were we kind of in Harry's shoes here in terms of how we felt about Draco, or did we think there was maybe something more to the story? I know for me, noting that Draco had been noted to be, like, missing Quidditch, missing classes, that he was looking like, thin and ill, that kind of was an indicator to me at the time that things were not as straightforward as maybe Harry was interpreting them.

[Eric]

Yeah, it's just so wild. Like, nothing in book six frustrates me as much as literally anything in book five, but because we understood in chapter two of this book that Draco is in fact a Death Eater and Snape is in fact trying to help him. The previous discussion, or the previous discussion that they had after Slughorn's party, last chapter reads like, not just confirmation, but, oh, finally the plot is moving forward. And when Harry's chatting with Ron about it and Ron's just like, being all Hermione ish, I was just shocked and probably a little put out of, oh, I guess the plot is not moving forward. They're going to Continue to not believe Harry. And it's almost like a sick game of how. How long can Harry go without being believed about something that has already been confirmed to the reader, but not to any of the characters? And so, I don't know, it's fun to. Or maybe not fun to be teased so long. Cause you just want to hope that Ron and Hermione will get back together and will just be Harry's friend about Draco, and it just doesn't happen yet.

[Martha]

Yeah, it's such an interesting setup in this book. It's so different from the other books in that we have, first of all, like, all of Harry's theories about Snape and Malfoy are finally actually accurate. And then second of all, like you said, having the foreshadowing or whatever you want to call it of Spinner's End, like, we as the reader are in the know for once. And yeah, I. I don't remember feeling frustrated necessarily because I think. Well, I, as our listeners are aware, like, I started this book having already been spoiled, that Snape was going to kill Dumbledore at the end by our mean cousin. Were you in.

[Eric]

Were you in line at that release party where somebody drove by and shouted out, was that you? Was that Montana? Was it?

[Martha]

No, that was my. It was my cousin, like, a week after the book had come out. And he was like, wanted to tell me, like, in a very snotty way, like, you know, that Snape's gonna kill Dumbledore. Right? And I was like, no, I did not know that.

[Eric]

Well, has achieved nothing but success in life. I hope they're doing well right now.

[Martha]

You two would get along. Let's just. That's a similar response that he would have to the situation. I feel like he would really appreciate.

[Eric]

Your claws out a little bit. Yeah.

[Martha]

No, but I just, I think that it's. What. Part of what makes this book so unique and special is how different the storytelling is, like, when it comes to the Snape and Malfoy stuff.

[Alice]

Well, I think I was like, Eric, like, I definitely was really frustrated. I was always really team Harry, like, believed him 100% and had, like, the same interpretations on things. And so it was just really, like, super frustrating to see, especially Ron and Hermione, who usually would agree with him. I'm like, why are you sticking up for Malfoy? And so that was. That was really frustrating. And I mean, yes, we are let in on the plot, like Martha said, but it's also obviously, like, only half of what's really going on. So we're actually not let in on the plot. So it is just a very interesting way that it's all set up. But I was very Team Harry from the. From when I first read it.

[Laura]

It is so funny that you put it that way, because in that way, both Harry and the reader are kind of being played with in the same way by Dumbledore, like, only, like, really orchestrating all of this so that we're only getting certain kinds of information. So actually, with that in mind, I can definitely see where the frustration came for where that came from for you, Alice, as well as Eric. Back to this kitchen scene. Harry and Ron are soon interrupted by Fred and George, who do not miss the opportunity to tease the two of them about having to do this peeling task by hand and they can't do magic. And something I wanted to talk about because it kind of surprised me. George accidentally bumps into Ron, causing him to cut his finger with the knife that he's using to peel sprouts. Now, remind me, when we had our episode about Fred and George, didn't we determine that, like, Fred was the mean twin?

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, it's. And Alice and Martha, you guys would Love this. Our 508th episode is how to tell Fred and George Weasley apart. And it turns out there's actually a very strict rule that is evenly applied across nearly every interaction. This interaction is an outlier. Fred is usually the instigator. Whenever there's a series of joke telling and somebody goes too far, it's always Fred. In this chapter, George is the one that, you know, bumps into Ron and causes him to cut himself. So I guess maybe we have to revisit the whole thought process around Fred.

[Andrew]

I don't think we need to, because they're brothers, they're still going to have some overlap. They're twins who like to mess with people.

[Martha]

So did George really make Ron do this? That I. When I read this in the outline, I was like, this is before I had read the chapter again. And I was like, I don't remember that. And I. I'm looking at it and like, Ron says, you made me do that. And George put his feet up on the table. But, like, is it really George intentional? Like, I. I don't know. I don't. I don't quite buy that George meant to do it.

[Laura]

Doesn't he say, like, whoopsie daisy or something like that?

[Martha]

Because I think that's when he sees Ron do it. Like, I mean, Ron throws a knife at him a few minutes later. So I don't know if it's meanness as much as it's like, just the brothers being the brothers. Can I just ask, though, sprouts. What are the sprouts?

[Andrew]

Are they just the sprouts that you put on a sandwich?

[Eric]

The head of Hufflepuff House, you know, to peel them.

[Martha]

Like, what. What do you peel? I've always. I've never known this.

[Alice]

Peel sprouts, for some reason pictured it more like potatoes, but that doesn't really make sense.

[Martha]

That's what I always picture with peeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Five Americans. Try to figure out what this means.

[Martha]

I know.

[Alice]

Maybe this is like a Britishism.

[Martha]

British.

[Andrew]

It probably ate them out of their.

[Laura]

I think there are a few in this chapter. Like, there's some bush that gets named a couple of times and the satsuma. I wouldn't. Yeah, I wouldn't be able to. To like. There's another one that was really long, though, and I was like. I don't even know how to say that.

[Martha]

Something that they walk by, I think. Yeah.

[Eric]

We'll have to consult the Harry Potter Cookbook for recipes derived strictly from this chapter.

[Alice]

Yeah.

[Martha]

Was it the rhododendron?

[Eric]

I'm sure, yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But I'm inclined to believe that George did this on purpose because it's just typical taunting of your younger brother, I think. That said, I think it was really mean. You're making your brother bleeding. That's bad. The only thing that could sort of excuse it to me is that Fred and George figure that they can easily heal it. They'll know how to heal it back up. So it's almost like no real harm, no real foul.

[Eric]

Again, it's like, why, Like, Quidditch goes real hard because of all the injuries. But they're at a magic school. And, you know, a lot of these injuries can be mended with a wave of a wand. So maybe that's it. I mean, I don't have a brother, so I can't say I've ever liked. Made him bleed. But Andrew, how did he do it?

[Alice]

Well, I was gonna say it's pretty interesting that it's, like, Right. Following up on this other story about them as children and how they kind of pushed it too far that time, too. Like, they. They almost. I mean, I don't know that it was really gonna actually work for these two, like, little kids to make an unbreakable vow but that, you know, Mr. Weasley had to intervene before they potentially set Ron up to die.

[Andrew]

That was crazy.

[Eric]

That's a great point.

[Andrew]

There's actually a role in the wizarding world where you have to be 16 or older to be able to commit to an Unbreakable Vow.

[Alice]

I mean, it seems like it's pretty powerful.

[Martha]

Yes. To it.

[Alice]

Yeah, it seems like it's pretty powerful magic that I doubt that little kids could do, but I don't know.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah. So as this scene goes on, Fred and George are also taunting Ron about lavender. So they move on to taunting him about, you know, what could possibly be wrong with this girl if she's involved tied up with you. And I know this may be a little bit of a crackpot theory observation, but Ron does throw the knife at Fred. And which of the twins dies in the next book?

[Andrew]

I like this.

[Eric]

I like this marked man ever since he insulted Lav Lav.

[Martha]

Yeah, that's a really good point. But Fred did turn into a paper airplane with his wand, so.

[Laura]

He did. Yeah.

[Eric]

That's quick thinking.

[Laura]

Yeah, no, definitely. And it's. Yeah, it's very funny because it's like, again, the brothers, they could have definitely, you know, very easily helped Harry and Ron with this task by using magic to do it, but, you know, they don't want to. They clearly have other plans. Going into town to meet up with a pretty girl.

[Martha]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Martha]

Well, that will be fun.

[Eric]

You know what? Live on our discord real quick. We have had some input about sprouts. Brussels sprouts. I didn't even think about this. Brussels sprouts are size.

[Martha]

I wondered about that.

[Eric]

This whole time I'm picturing tiny little sprouts and how you do it. But Brussels sprouts are the size of.

[Alice]

A tiny one and you have to kind of peel those, don't you?

[Eric]

Yeah, kind of.

[Laura]

I don't think I've ever peeled a Brussels sprout oil, but, like, you kind.

[Martha]

Of usually cut them in half and then cut the end off, like.

[Alice]

And sometimes the outer leaves are kind of like folding away, but they'll just.

[Martha]

Fall off if you're cutting them. Yeah.

[Laura]

I don't know.

[Martha]

I'm reaching listeners.

[Andrew]

Let us know.

[Martha]

I wondered about Brussels sprouts too, so I'm glad somebody brought that up. Yeah, the sprout Mountain. I do like that visual, even though I don't know what I'm picturing because I don't know what the sprouts are.

[Laura]

While Remus and Fleur have also joined the Weasleys for Christmas and the Flora and Mrs. Weasley Passive aggression continues throughout this chapter. I know we've talked quite a bit about this dynamic not just with regards to Fleur and Mrs. Weasley, but we've also talked about in the past, like, when Mrs. Weasley was being shady towards Hermione and how unfortunately, in some of these female characters we continue to see this trend towards, like, some characters wanting to tear each other down. And we definitely see Both Fleur and Mrs. Weasley trying to get under each other's skin in this chapter. So I don't know if anyone had any other observations on that front that we haven't already touched on the show before.

[Eric]

It's just sad to see Fleur's foreignness to be used to sort of discredit her or make it like she has nothing worthwhile to say. And this girl was a champion of the school at which she went to, you know, to compete in the Triwizard cup last year, two years ago. And I just think that it's a shame that her sort of existence in this book is as a. As a punchline. But I'm grateful for the future redemption that's coming to Fleur and the resolution of hers and Mrs. Weasley's relationship. But right now it's uncomfortable to read how uncomfortable they Both are. And Mrs. Weasley didn't knit Fleur a sweater. She knitted everyone else's sweater. That is a particular low. I mean, this is the fiance of your oldest son. You're gonna pull that crap.

[Alice]

The thing that kind of like, the more that Martha and I look back at the series now, like sometimes, definitely as a teenager, I would idolize the author. And this is a scene where I'm starting to see, see, like now reading through a new lens maybe that she's putting some like, stereotypes of, you know, some sexist stereotypes, implying that like a mother in law and a daughter in law just always are going to be butting heads. And I mean, yes, that can happen, but I. It kind of. Sometimes it's like, well, that was a. Maybe a little bit lazy to have that as a plot in there.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, I think it's. It's very uncharacteristic of Mrs. Weasley when you consider the way she's portrayed the other 95% of the time.

[Alice]

Yeah, that's the thing. Generally so hospitable, welcoming. And then just to see this, like this idea that she's really catty and like, undercutting other women isn't necessarily fit with the rest of her personality and.

[Andrew]

She'S not a good example to lead by. You gotta be a better role model. In situations like this, family, don't turn up. The radio doesn't get along.

[Eric]

Don't just blare the radio. That's rude.

[Martha]

This is one of the Fleur Mrs. Weasley chapters where I kind of feel like Fleur sort of asks for it. Like her imitating Mrs. Weasley's favorite singer is kind of a slap in the face to Mrs. Weasley, her host. But then at the same time, when we look back how she's been treated in the Past by Mrs. Weasley, we know why. Probably Fleur is kind of trying to, I don't know, stand up for herself in a way. Or maybe, like, she's. She's reached a point where she doesn't try with Mrs. Weasley anymore. So I get it. But I do think that as far as Fleur and Mrs. Weasley interactions, this is a chapter where we do see Fleur being a little bit, maybe catty back. Like I said, the imitation of Celestina Warbeck is pretty rude, I guess. Yeah, it's funny.

[Laura]

She's leaving it.

[Eric]

Who is this awful woman? I think that's exactly what it is. Like, this is day 100 or so of Fleur and Mrs. Weasley being under one roof. And so we got a reprieve of it because we were at Hogwarts with the. The trio. But they have not gotten a reprieve from each other. And Bill, wherever he may be, has not stepped in and said, okay, you know, we're gonna take a break. We're gonna. We're gonna move somewhere else a little bit. Somewhere like, there. Whatever is happening is ultimately bigger than either Mrs. Weasley or Fleur about all of this.

[Martha]

So imagine if they had been quarantined.

[Eric]

Together, like, oh, my God. Yeah. That they wouldn't have survived.

[Martha]

No, I don't think so.

[Eric]

There would be so few sweaters in one corner of the room.

[Alice]

It is a good point, though, that Bill could have at some point, like, maybe defended his fiance a little bit or, like, said to his mom, like, come on, like, can you please not. I mean, maybe he did off, off, off the page somewhere, but not where we ever get to be privy to that.

[Eric]

You know, what if. And if Fleur is being, like, intentionally catty, she should just go where Bill's sweater around the house. That'll show Mrs. Weasley.

[Laura]

She probably doesn't want to wear a sweater. I found myself thinking that, too.

[Martha]

Like, yeah, I thought that.

[Laura]

Was it possible that Mrs. Weasley did make her a sweater? Begrudgingly. But then Fleur was like, yeah, because it does say.

[Martha]

It does say, like, on whom it appeared Mrs. Weasley had not wanted to waste one.

[Eric]

But here's.

[Martha]

We don't have the. We don't have the opening of the presents, like, where everybody opens theirs. It just says they're all wearing theirs except Fleur. So maybe that's Harry's, once again interpretation.

[Alice]

We're getting it from Harry's perspective. And he, as we see in this chapter, he does not interpret everything totally accurately as to what's going on. So that's definitely possible.

[Laura]

That is a great observation.

[Eric]

Yeah, always very important.

[Laura]

Well, Harry does finally get a chance to talk to Remus on Christmas Eve as well. And we get a little bit of Remus's backstory here. So he's. Well, we get his current story about what he's doing now, but then we also get some backstory about how he became a werewolf. So he's gone underground to live amongst the werewolves to try and de influence their affiliation with Voldemort.

[Andrew]

Ooh, a de influencer.

[Laura]

Yeah, he's the original D influencer, the og. He shows up and he's like, don't cry. What's up, Chat? Smash that, like, button. I'm going to de influence you on Voldemort. Remus does also name drop Fenrir Greyback as the ringleader of much of the effort to get the werewolves to align with Voldemort. And he talks about how Grayback has made it his life's mission to attack as many people as possible to turn them into werewolves. And that in particular, he likes to attack children because he likes to, quote, get them young. He also goes on to reveal that Grayback was, in fact the werewolf who turned him when he was a child.

[Eric]

Yeah. This is just incredibly rough to see that there is a character who is every bit as disturbed and evil as sort of like, how people would make all werewolves out to be. Everything people are saying about werewolves out there that makes Remus Lupin teaching at Hogwarts completely inappropriate are all the things that seem to be personified or embodied by just this one, this leader, Grayback, who's attempting to sway other werewolves and show them that they don't need wizards and they don't need to cohabitate. And it's just, this is. I mean, he's a boogeyman. And he's also harboring some deep. Like, he's causing a lot of harm out there. And this is actually one of the writings either through Pottermore or Extended Canon, where you learn a little bit about Lyle Lupin, he's named Lupin's dad, and the specific political pressure he was under. And essentially it had to do with rights that werewolves were going to be gaining. That's why Remus was attacked. And it's just an interesting kind of thought, but ultimately I'm just kind of terrified of Fenrir Greyback. Like I want to lock the door and then double lock it. Just thinking about this type of character. It's a very dark thing to read about in this book.

[Andrew]

Well, and I think we've compared becoming a werewolf with the AIDS outbreak. And I think it would be interesting to explore this backstory that you're describing, Eric, that was added on Pottermore or wherever else in the TV show. Because often in media you see these comparisons, these symbolic comparisons of, let's say, the wizarding world versus the Muggle world. And I think that would be an interesting avenue to explore for them with all the extra time they're gonna have in this TV show.

[Eric]

Yeah. Do more flashbacks.

[Martha]

Absolutely.

[Eric]

It doesn't just need to be that one little two minute scene of Voldemort showing up at the Potter's doorstep in Godric's Hollow. We can have flashbacks three times a season and it would be warranted.

[Laura]

Yeah. Martha and Alice. I'm really curious to hear Yalls thoughts around some of the revelation here behind what Remus is doing, but also kind of like his background and getting turned in the first place.

[Martha]

I think it's one of those situations with the author where she introduces something in such a slight way that's way bigger than the way she's introducing it. And it's not, we don't get enough to like really see what it is. We get this introduction of Grayback, like positioning himself near his victims and wanting to get them young. But then apparently he like, after Remus was bitten, he didn't learn his fighter's identity for, for years afterwards. So it's kind of this like, I, I doesn't quite. I feel like there's so many unanswered questions with it that could be answered. And I'm like, I don't know what I want for as far as answers goes. But it's such a dark thing that's opened up here. And the concept of Greyback as a character, he's just like pure evil and so scary. And then it's like kind of just barely touched on.

[Alice]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. The other thing I liked Eric's point about how Grayback is kind of like the stereotypical werewolf. And it is interesting to see that where we have this, like, minority group in the. In the books of the werewolves and how it's like there's this one who does embody all those negative traits. And how frustrating that would be for somebody like Lupin, let alone to. For that to be the person who turned him into a werewolf. Like, yeah, that would just be. It's like he's embodying everything that Lupin is against and that's who got him. Like, that's horrible for him.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

That's really sets up a personal conflict between the two men now. The two grown werewolf men. Like, I'd be interested in seeing if they face off. I've totally forgotten if they have any interactions in the final battle. We know that Greyback eventually gets lavender.

[Martha]

I don't think that there is any.

[Alice]

I don't think so either, but I.

[Martha]

Really don't think there is any kind of confrontation there should have been.

[Eric]

Right. They're kind of.

[Martha]

It seems like a missed opportunity.

[Eric]

They're both in the same place. It's like, you know, reimagined.

[Alice]

Would have been nice for Lupin to be able to finish him off or something.

[Martha]

But Schlupin.

[Laura]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. There's an aspect, and I feel like we could have a whole episode discussing Grayback and digging into his philosophies and ideologies and kind of how they inform what he does. But there is a really dark side to this particular narrative that I don't think gets explicitly covered in the movies the way it does in the books, where he's targeting children. And that in and of itself, if you're doing, like, a critical reading of the stories and like, the kind of subtext that you could read into something like that is an example of some of the darker themes in this story that don't really get touched on in the movies, because they were trying to. You know, they're kids movies, right?

[Martha]

Yeah.

[Laura]

But, you know, these stories get more and more adult, as you know.

[Andrew]

And when you're a younger reader, the first time you're reading these things, they go right over your head. You know, we've talked about, like, the Love Potion example again, and then now you look what's going on in the news as it pertains in particular to Jeffrey Epstein, and you start drawing those kind of comparisons here, too, with attacking children.

[Eric]

Just so many victims.

[Andrew]

I can see why. This is a very frosty Christmas.

[Martha]

The layer two of Voldemort threatening to unleash him on Death Eater's kids. And that's how Death Eater or not Death Eaters, but like, people he's trying to convert to Death Eater side.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like the intimidation, having him as a weapon and knowing that Draco, even either a movieism or not Draco name drops him as well to get Burke or Borgin to step in line.

[Alice]

Yeah, it's another. That's another interesting case of, like, them using people in a way that's like, not. I don't know, it's like. It's not like Voldemort cares about Grayback, but he's like, I'm gonna weaponize you and turn you into. Into this thing I can use.

[Laura]

It's just.

[Alice]

It's also disturbing.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Martha]

I remember the scene in Malfoy Manor in the seventh book, always feeling like a tiny bit of, like, pity for Greyback when there's, like, the moment where, like, nobody wants to be near him. And, like, I hate Greyback. He's awful. And like, like I said, one of the most, like, purely evil characters in the series. But there is that moment where it's like, even the people that he's, like, aligned with are really, like, aren't actually his real allies.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Martha]

Like, disgusting.

[Laura]

They're just using him, Right?

[Eric]

Yep.

[Laura]

Yep. Well, Harry's also still trying to get to the bottom of the identity of the Half Blood Prince. So he brings this up to Remus and he talks about Levy Corpus and specifically tries to make the connection of. Well, I have this textbook and there are all these notes in the margins. And I remember seeing in the Pensieve that my dad did that to Snape. So. And Remus is really quick to be like, first of all, your dad was a pureblood and he never once asked any of us to call him a prince. So.

[Andrew]

And there are no princes in the wizarding realm.

[Eric]

I think Remus is covering. I think James did ask specifically for that. I think Remus is just doing a good friend thing.

[Martha]

And he's like, is this a name you're thinking of going by yourself?

[Andrew]

Yeah, that was really funny.

[Laura]

One's not good enough for you.

[Andrew]

The Chosen Prince. He's workshopping a new version. The Chosen Prince, but who likes it? Another line from Lupin that stuck out to me is when Lupin was talking to Harry about Snape, he said, you are determined to hate him, him being Snape. And that line jumped out to me because not only is Harry trying to talk to Arthur and Remus about Draco, but he's also talking to him about Snape. And. And has Harry considered even once yet that this book of his that's been helping him in Potions could have been Snape's?

[Laura]

No.

[Andrew]

He's so. Like Lupin said, he's so determined to hate him, that thought doesn't even cross his mind. How could this guy, this idiot who really knows his Potions, have possibly wrote all this brilliance in this book? So it's just interesting to me how.

[Martha]

His hate clouds is judge.

[Alice]

It's sort of a good cover for why Harry never thinks of Snape. Because I feel like we want it to come as a total shock at the end that it is Snape. So if Harry had, like, floated that idea in his mind, it wouldn't have been a shock for us. But I think you're right. Like, it's a natural way of saying, this is why Harry would never consider it because he's so far out of anyone Harry would respect. He would never think that he could have done something that he would like.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Martha]

And to be fair, too, as a teacher, it's not like Snape has really shown his Potions prowess to Harry. Like, I. I don't think that Harry thinks of him as being that great at Potions because he's not that great at teaching. So I don't if Harry really has all that. I mean, obviously has very little respect for Snape, period. But, like, when it comes to Snape as a Potions master, I don't really know if Harry thinks of him as being so good at Potions.

[Alice]

Yeah, it was almost like a surprise when we found out he was the Prince because it was like, oh, yeah, he does like Potions because it's always like, we know he's really into the Dark Arts.

[Martha]

We know that he really. That's his second choice subject, you know. Yeah, well.

[Eric]

And yeah, no, it's a good point about all, like, the misdirection that's been put in the books. Like, there are these tiny moments where whenever Harry, Rod or Hermione screw up a potion, he knows exactly what step they failed at and exactly what ingredient they. And like, that's cool as hell that he's that into it, but it's so subtle. And something I want to really just state here is how much I appreciate Lupin saying, Harry, you're prejudiced. Like, this is something that you are predisposed to thinking because you've inherited a prejudice. Lupin is the only one that can tell Harry this, that can talk to Harry like this. I think he's singular in that sort of friendship and mentorship angle that, that, that they've got together. And it is so crucial to hear that sort of thing from a friend. Like, right, that, that. Oh, you're prejudiced. Now, we understand Snape and Harry have very good reason to dislike each other. Even Remus in this chapter says so. But the way in which you're jumping to conclusions or it's just important for friends always to call out what they think might be the beginnings of something that isn't completely above board.

[Martha]

Yeah, I think you're right that Lupin is the only person that could say something like this to Harry. But at the same time, I don't know that Harry really listens to him.

[Eric]

Right.

[Martha]

And you can only do so much.

[Eric]

You can point this like.

[Martha]

Yeah, that's true. But also, I mean, like, the, the prejudice that Harry has towards Snape does not just come from his. Inherited from his father. You know, like, Snape has treated him terribly.

[Laura]

Yes, exactly.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Alice]

Well, Martha and I always, like, we love this love slash hate this scene. We always quote the line about, I neither like nor dislike Severus.

[Laura]

And it's.

[Alice]

It's just kind of like it's always.

[Martha]

Like, okay, and we shall never be bosom friends.

[Eric]

Okay.

[Laura]

Okay.

[Eric]

Wet blanket.

[Alice]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, oh, my gosh.

[Martha]

And he.

[Alice]

But you have to really. I mean, wow, he must do, like, a lot of, like, meditation or therapy or something to come out of that point because I just don't understand, like, how he just is so Zen about the whole thing. It's like.

[Martha]

It's almost ridiculous. Like a serenity prayer or something like that.

[Andrew]

He's an adult. He's over it. He's not wanting to roll around in this drama anymore.

[Laura]

Well, and he also points out that Snape was the one who was brewing the Wolfsbane Potion for him the entire year in book three. And that had he wanted to screw with Lupin, he totally could have.

[Alice]

Yeah, no, I. I admire.

[Martha]

Yeah, I admire.

[Eric]

Contractually bound to not be mad at Snape anymore because of all the times he made the potion for me.

[Alice]

Yeah.

[Martha]

And didn't. He didn't kill me. So he could have.

[Andrew]

Even though it probably frustrates Harry to hear what Lupin has to say, Harry does have to remember here that Lupin has decades on him, a couple of decades on him when it comes to his relationships and knowing Dumbledore and Snape. So what he says about Dumbledore and Snape, in my opinion, should close the book on this for Harry. You gotta Trust Dumbledore. I know him. I know his relationship with Snape. Just, just go with it. I know it's hard, but I just don't know how you argue with somebody who's known these people for many, many, many years, more than you have.

[Alice]

Well, he's a teenage boy, so that comes.

[Martha]

I was gonna say that's how you argue.

[Eric]

That's how you keep getting back up again. You have the losing hand. You keep fighting. Anyway, yeah, I really liked what Martha was pointing out. As far as there's not. These aren't the only reasons Harry has a prejudice against Snape. Like actual lived treatment is such a call out because to be honest, like Lupin is overlooking that aspect. And so when Lupin is telling Harry, you should trust Dumbledore or, you know, we should all just kind of go ahead with Dumbledore on this. We all know that Dumbledore is like actively manipulating Harry. Still. Still. And like a year after he told him, I'll tell you everything, you still ain't told him crap. So it's kind of unfortunate that Lupin kind of gives up early almost by saying, you know, Dumbledore trusts him. That's good enough for me. Because there is more going on. And Harry has unique insight into Voldemort's brain that make him think there's still more going on. And he's right. So it kind of complicates things.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, and he's also, you know, getting. He's also having Arthur somewhat downplay his concerns with regard to Draco. But Arthur at least tries to level with him. And he was like, look, Harry, I checked after what you said to me on the platform, like we went and raided their house and there wasn't anything.

[Martha]

I've always loved that Arthur actually did that. Like, that's such a, like showing of Trust in this 16 year old kid that like most people, many adults wouldn't do. Like, that's like, okay, you overheard a weird conversation, let it go. That's what most adults would respond. Like, I say that as a teacher who interacts with teenagers all the time. Like, I, I wouldn't go and check the house. Like, not that I.

[Eric]

So students come up to you all the time and they say somebody's doing an illegal thing and you're just like.

[Martha]

Nah, thank you for telling me when it comes to the illegalities. No, but like I overheard a weird conversation. Like, I don't know, it just feels like Arthur. It's very admirable that Arthur actually went and checked the house. Did What? He could.

[Eric]

God, somebody is on Harry's side here trying to believe Harry.

[Martha]

Yeah, exactly.

[Alice]

You would think that that would honestly go a little further with Harry. Like he doesn't really show. I mean he still wants to bring his concerns to Mr. Weasley but he's not overly grateful that he did that. It's kind of surprising.

[Eric]

No, yeah, yeah, Harry could, Harry could, Harry could. I mean this is a 16 year old boy side but like Harry could always say, hey, by the way, thank you so much again.

[Alice]

Yeah, like that means a lot that you took me seriously on that.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah.

[Martha]

He's also very much an afterthought telling Mr. Weasley, like when he tells Ron, he's like, I might have a word with your dad too. Like, like, you know, he might be useful. Like, not that. Oh, that's the first person I need to talk to about this because I know he'll actually do something I love.

[Eric]

Whenever Harry just veers off and ends up talking to somebody, he wouldn't initially think too, like, o nearly has a snake is over there or oh, Mr. Weasley's over there. Like anybody, Harry just randomly is like, oh yeah, this person's in my life.

[Martha]

I wish that Harry had confessed this to Sir Nicholas. That would.

[Eric]

Oh my God, that would be amazing. Yes.

[Laura]

Well, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to be back to talk about Christmas Day on this frosty Christmas. So we'll be right back. All right. And we are back and we are waking up on Christmas morning where we're reminded that the cringe of the Ron and Lavender relationship persists even though they're not actively engaged in massive PDA at this moment. But it's because lavender has sent Ron a gold necklace with the words My sweetheart dangling from it. Can we relate to Ron's reaction here? Have any of us ever been in the position of getting a gift like this from somebody and being like.

[Andrew]

This relationship is just not going to work? I mean, Ron is not this type of person where he's going to be wearing this type of thing. And this is just a huge red flag that this relationship is destined to fail. Ron is not this type of person and lavender is not seeking out the type of person who Ron is.

[Martha]

Did Ron even get something for lavender? That's what's really heartbreaking here.

[Laura]

I don't think he did my heavy canon is that he did not.

[Andrew]

He says in the chapter, we don't do much talking, we just do snogging. Like that's his presence is enough of.

[Eric]

A present for her.

[Martha]

You probably a paper coupon for like five minute makeout session.

[Eric]

Like coupon. Oh my God. All those self serving Christmas gifts where it's really like ooh, cuddle time under the mistletoe is like, yeah, it just benefits you. That's such a wrong thing.

[Martha]

Poor Lava. Like, I mean this is such a terrible gift. And so not Ron, but like she went and bought this and like thought that he'd like it. Like poor girl.

[Laura]

She's trying, right? Ron's not trying.

[Eric]

Well, this is so indicative of like how Ron views this relationship. Which is to say he doesn't at all think of it really as anything like he's, he's trapped in this moment. He's trapped by his own actions really. The fact that somebody would think that he was their sweetheart when really he's just on some anti Hermione kick. Like and it's a shame to see like sort of the collateral that the setting up for collateral damage here because Ron is. Ron doesn't want to be anybody's sweetheart besides maybe Hermione's, but he's not doing anything to actually go and get what he wants. Instead he's making the situation catastrophically worse.

[Martha]

Yeah, you're right. He, he immediately pivots to asking about Hermione right after this.

[Eric]

So that's how you know she's on his mind.

[Martha]

As subtle as a freight train as some might say. Oh my God.

[Andrew]

There is.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Martha]

I do have.

[Laura]

Not the king of subtlety. Go ahead.

[Alice]

I do have to thank Lavender for this though because this is Martha's in my all time favorite font in the series. In the American version, the font of my sweetheart is just so funny. I think they did a great job picking it out and I love it.

[Martha]

I can't look at this page without cracking up. Yeah.

[Eric]

Can you describe it? Is it like loopy? Is it?

[Alice]

Yeah, it's like a loopy. Very loopy, very cursive. Like kind of not quite cursive, but just so goofy looking. It just like makes it so goofy.

[Martha]

All these like spiral. Yeah. Again, picturing this on a necklace that Lavender thinks Ron's going to wear just adds so much to this.

[Laura]

I wanted to spend the rest of our discussion talking about what happens during Christmas lunch when Harry and the Weasleys are greeting. That's an interesting term. By a surprise. Yeah. Greeted by a surprise visit from Percy and Rufus Scrimgeour, the Minister of Magic. And there's this whole just like unbelievable setup that it's very clear. Mrs. Weasley is, like, the only one who buys into it because she's just so glad to see her son. And the story that they give everybody is, oh, you know, we were just in the area working on Christmas Day, and Percy was just. He. He wanted to stop by and see all of you. That's. And, you know, Scrimjour takes this as an opportunity to say, ah, yes, you, young man, who. I definitely don't know who you are. Looks like you're done eating. Why don't you come with me for a turn around the garden? You can show me around.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Martha]

First of all, I wouldn't.

[Andrew]

I wouldn't put it past Percy to actually work happily on Christmas Day. He's a prat and a workaholic like that. But second of all, this, to me, was somewhat believable until Scrimjour makes the comment about, oh, you, boy. Who I totally don't know is the chosen prince. Can you please go on a walk with me?

[Martha]

That partly, your plate's empty.

[Eric]

Yeah. How about you?

[Andrew]

Specifically, Scrimgeour approached this differently. I think maybe it would have went over a little better with Harry. But just this act is so disingenuous that it puts Harry and the others, besides Molly, I guess, on their guard.

[Eric]

Yeah. Like, Harry points out that others have empty plates too, and he doesn't ask them. And in fact, they clearly live here.

[Martha]

And George.

[Eric]

Yeah, they all have red hair. They all clearly live here, just like Percy did. So if you want to tour around the garden, Harry should just be like, well, I could. I've never been there, but I could. I could guard you. I could guide you around the garden.

[Andrew]

Well, it does make the most sense for Harry to go with him because all the Weasleys, in theory, would want to spend time with their son and brother, Percy.

[Laura]

Right.

[Andrew]

So just say, hey, Harry, good to see you. Can we have a talk? I don't know. That's how I would have approached it.

[Laura]

Right? Like, just be direct, be honest. I think Harry would have had more respect.

[Andrew]

Yeah, exactly.

[Martha]

It's just being weird. Like, that's just not. Not how normal people act.

[Eric]

Listen, this was a first draft. This was a first draft. Like, Scrymgeour has been rebuffed by Dumbledore the whole summer and up to this point. And they finally developed a plan. Admittedly, it's more like the beginnings of a plan, but it worked. It actually gets the Minister for Magic sneakily right into Harry's presence so he can make the ask and I think even Scrimgeours may be surprised or didn't have a chance to plan it for it to be because. Because he so quickly reveals his cards.

[Martha]

Well, the problem is what a clever ploy it was.

[Alice]

I don't think he has amazing advisors around him to give him tips on how to interact with people. Like, he's hanging out with Percy a lot and I feel like that seems like not a good way.

[Laura]

He doesn't have social skills.

[Martha]

Yeah. Percy and Umbridge are his two main advisors.

[Eric]

Oh God. And he doesn't know enough to know not to bring up Umbridge ever. Cause that is complete anathema to his cause.

[Laura]

Yeah, right. No, and I think it really does get a show that Scrimjour. Like, even though he's. I think we feel like he's maybe a little more polished than Fudge, I don't think that he's any more politically savvy because he doesn't know anything about Harry. If he's taking his cues from Percy about how to appeal to Harry, that is like the wrong person to be getting that guidance from.

[Eric]

Because Percy never understood Harry.

[Laura]

No. No. And to be honest with you, I could see both Percy and Umbridge being the ones to say, oh yeah, dangle like the carrot of the Auror ship under his nose and that'll get him. It's like you don't really know this character if that's what you think will appeal.

[Martha]

That would have been a way to get Percy to do it. Like to be like, you could get a job at the Ministry if you do this.

[Eric]

And that's a number of things he probably.

[Martha]

Yep.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Martha]

True.

[Eric]

Oh man. Well, I love the point that like Rufus is. Doesn't have the right advisors and then he's pretty much alone because that's always how I think of Scrimjar dying. Is completely alone. Like, you know, his Ministry gets infiltrated and it's up to the point where he eventually, like this, great warriors just falls because he isn't propped up by the best people. He isn't propped up by the people that actually have their finger on the right pulse. And it's just. It is sad to kind of see the beginnings of the end here for Rufus. Like when Harry rebuffs him. There's no like follow up plan. The Ministry's just gonna grind to a halt. Not that Harry causes it, but they were always going in that direction anyway. And it's kind of sad to see the end and it start to unravel here.

[Laura]

Yeah. Well, I think we could argue probably that the end has been unraveling since he took the minister position. Like, I just. I don't think this man was ever equipped. And I also don't think the Ministry was equipped to deal with this in the way it needed to be dealt with. And to that point, you know, Scrymgeour is very much trying to appeal to Harry, get Harry to create the appearance that he is working with the Ministry to try and bring Voldemort down. And Harry point Blake tells him, well, that was would make it seem like I agree with what y' all are doing. And I don't because you're imprisoning and arresting people who are not actually Death Eaters because that's easier than going after the real thing. And also, like, the call is coming from inside the house on that one too.

[Alice]

It's really interesting with this scene because we see Harry really reject the idea of being, like, used as a tool by Scrymgeour and saying that he's Dumbledore's man. And then we're gonna ultimately find out that Dumbledore is using Harry as a tool.

[Eric]

It's a shame.

[Alice]

It's so interesting that, like, he's saying this, but just to see that Dumbledore clearly had a much more persuasive approach. So that when Harry does find out eventually that he is being used as a tool, he doesn't just reject that.

[Andrew]

I think it is from a place of love and care, though.

[Martha]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

No, the Ministries is just shallow.

[Martha]

More maybe not more so than the Ministries is, at least, but at least.

[Eric]

Dumbledore is taking into account on some very base level Harry's wants, needs, desires, hopes, whatever, Whatever. Like, the bar is pretty low, but Scrim Jar doesn't know Harry at all to the point. And Dumbledore has set. Dumbledore has done Harry a solid only ever in that he's given Harry a way to be safe and survive up to this point. But that alone is much more than Scrimjow could ever give Harry.

[Martha]

Well, I think it's interesting that, like, with Scrimgeour, not that this is gonna turn, obviously we don't have time to talk about all the Scrimjour stuff. But, like, I think for Scrymgeour, like, we learn, like, the best, most politically savvy, most noble thing he ever ends up doing is when he dies. Like, not caving to Voldemort and like, that he wasn't going to be the pawn for Voldemort that he hoped he would be. So, like, maybe this conversation did do something for him that, like, he maybe does respect the Dumbledore mission a little bit more than we thought he was going to. Because we do learn that, like, when. When Voldemort tries to capture him, he never back. Never caved and never, like, gave the information that Voldemort wanted to get from him.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't think Scrymgeour is a bad guy, but I think his inability to adapt to what Harry is telling him and his sort of persistence that they're going to keep arresting Stan Shunpikes of the world is enough to put the nail in the coffin between, like, for their collaboration. It's almost like the feedback he gets from Harry, which is. Harry is so real for kind of. You feel it from Harry's heart that he really cares about this. He just doesn't know what to do with this feedback because the Ministry is this behemoth that's working a certain way and politics and you don't understand. This is how we have to. To act like we're doing something. You know, all this, all these big parts that even Scrimjar probably feels can't be changed. Harry's like, why don't you just change this? Why don't.

[Laura]

Why don't you just.

[Eric]

Why don't you just wave a wand and fix this and not be this way? And Scrimjar's like, I don't even know where to start with that. I'm trying to, like, get a dark wizard now. Maybe we could talk about this later.

[Laura]

Like, yeah, well, I mean, I think in a certain respect, like, I can appreciate what Rufus is up against because he's trying to.

[Eric]

To.

[Laura]

To lead a country and a community. And it's very unclear right now which leader people should be looking towards. Is the leader, Harry, or is it the Ministry? And if you're leading the Ministry, you probably don't want people to have split allegiances between you as an organization and this, like, teenager. So that's. That's the position he's in is like, thinking about the political optics of it all. He's definitely not. He's not thinking about it in the right way because he's still stuck on the politics and, like, those moves and what it looks like. Yeah.

[Eric]

By you pointing this out, that Harry actually has a lot of power across the nation right now, power he never utilizes. But, like, you know, when he says to Harry, when Scrimjor says to Harry, it would mean a lot if you would be, you know, shown to be seen at the Ministry. What he's talking about is actually the power that Harry has to influence minds and likes. He's a real influencer. That's a heck of a thing. I often myself overlook it. You know what I'm thinking Laura? I'm thinking this should be maxed.

[Laura]

Oh, definitely.

[Eric]

I want to see both the entire conversation with Scrymgeour and Harry but also what's happening in the Burrow. I am surprised Percy escapes with his life. The last time we see the Weasleys they are all stony faced looking at like you said. I think it was Lara Percy or Molly's the only one that buys into this and this ruse. I'm just surprised there wasn't a fist fight and you know, basically a wizard duel because Percy's showing up. I want to see their side of things. I want to see the sibling dynamic that is now unleashed all this hell. Because I don't think Percy should be allowed to escape from this horrible thing where he invited somebody who was unwanted into the Weasley's home for Christmas. I don't think he should be able to escape unscathed for this.

[Martha]

Well, you'll be pleased with the first page of chapter 16 or chapter 17.

[Eric]

Oh gosh darn it. Here's the problem is I don't read ahead even though I don't either.

[Andrew]

I need to do that more often.

[Eric]

Yeah. Is there a fist fight?

[Martha]

No. Spoilers.

[Eric]

Oh, oh yeah.

[Andrew]

Don't spoil me. Martha.

[Laura]

Secrets.

[Eric]

Yeah, it.

[Laura]

Well, that closes out this week's chapter. Now we're going to get into MVP of the week. This week's mvp. Harry has quite a few of these. These, this chapter. Best Sassy Harry line of chapter 16.

[Andrew]

I'm going to give it to this line. You're making Stan a scapegoat just like you want to make me a mascot. I mean to say this to the minister of magic.

[Eric]

That line goes so hard I can't top it. I'm gonna piggyback on what you. Yeah.

[Laura]

Said there are so many good lines in his conversation with Scrimjor but I just wanted to give this one in an exchange. He has with Ron a shout out with regards to his Christmas present from Lavender. Harry says, classy. You should definitely wear it in front of Fred and George.

[Eric]

You know those connoisseurs of jewelry. Fred and George.

[Alice]

The line I picked was also from that conversation about the necklace. And it's right after Harry gets his present of maggots from Creature and Ron is kind of teasing him about that. And then Harry responds with I'd rather have them than the necklace.

[Eric]

Love it.

[Laura]

Ouch.

[Martha]

Back to hairy sassing Scrimger. I was thought it was a huge mic drop moment of yeah. And others might say it's your duty to check that people really are death eaters before you chuck them in prison.

[Andrew]

Oh yeah, he was sassy.

[Martha]

This chapter he says chuck them in prison twice too. Which is a great phrase.

[Eric]

Amazing. Yeah, Chuck like.

[Laura]

And now we're going to get into our links line. Supporters over on patreon.com mugglecast have answered this week's question, which is what do you think? Fred and George were trying to get 5 year old Ron to make an unbreakable vow. For that's something that's revealed this chapter.

[Andrew]

Neil said, I believe Fred and George tried to make Ron promise to be their personal mc. And anytime Fred and George would enter a room, Ron must loudly proclaim, behold. The legends arrived especially at every family meal.

[Eric]

Amazing. Mason says Fred and George wanted Ron to give them birthday presents every year for the rest of their lives. At least 30 sickle value.

[Laura]

Oh, it's mean. Megan says they wanted to make Ron. They wanted to make sure Ron would never tell on them. If I had the ability to magically solidify that fact of my younger brother, I would have been in a lot less trouble than when I was. Than I was when I was a teenager.

[Andrew]

Zachary said Fred and George were so enamored with a brother who looked up to them, so they made him swear he would never change or grow older. Oh, that's kind of cute.

[Eric]

Mav says to clean their room for the rest of their lives and not tell Molly. Man, people really understand Fred and George with these second halves of There's a price limit and don't tell mom and oh so good.

[Laura]

And Carly says knowing how much Ron looked up to Fred and George, he was agreeing to be their test subject forever and do whatever they told him to do. He wanted to prove he wasn't like Percy even from an early age.

[Andrew]

Love it. Love the creativity.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Listeners, if you have any feedback about today's discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to mugglecastmail.com you can also leave a comment on Spotify or YouTube or DM us on social. Whatever's easiest for you. And next week we will actually kick off our monthly Harry Potter TV show episodes. These are going to be special episodes dedicated to the Harry Potter TV show. We have some special segments that we've created just for these episodes. We're going to be looking at the latest news concerning the TV show. Set photos, all kinds of things. They're going to be a lot of fun and they're going to kick off next week. Visit mugglecast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more, including the Quizzage form. And now it's time for Quizzage.

[Eric]

This week's Quizzage question. In chapter 15 of book 6, we hear from Luna about the rot fang conspiracy, which involves gum disease. What do you call someone who's a specialist at treating gum disease? The word we were looking for as this week's Quizzage answer was periodontist. You may really only come across this word when you're looking up your medical insurance, your dental insurance, but hey, there it is is correct. Answers were submitted by Andrew's troll Ben, not Shane Blue the Raptor stuck in Isla New bar Fangs for the memory Gummy Walnut. I wish I did have to look this up. Hashtag flossyourteeth, Luna Muna, Mike who Cheese Harry Patronus Seeker, Quid Witch, Stewie Brewy Pettigrewi, Teacher of Muggles and Tofu Tom and congratulations everybody. Here is next week's quizzic question. In this chapter, Molly Weasley jams to a Christmas themed special on the radio. In what year did the Muggle equivalent of Celestina Warbeck's Christmas hits debut? I'm speaking of course, of Mariah Carey's All I Want for Christmas is you. What year did it come out? And for bonus points, what year of Hogwarts was this for Harry? It came out while he was at Hogwarts. Hogwarts. That's a little hint for you guys.

[Andrew]

I like hearing Jim Dale perform as Celestina Warbeck in the audiobooks. I was hearing that earlier today. That was really funny.

[Eric]

You know, it just so happens we're podcasting with someone that does an excellent Jim Dale impression here. Alice. Would you care to.

[Martha]

Alice does the Jim Dale impression of.

[Alice]

I only do it when he's the narrator. Yeah, Martha would do the Celestina Warbeck. Yeah. So. And.

[Martha]

And Celestina Warbeck, I think so. That's not the time.

[Andrew]

They did hire professional singer for the full cast audiobooks and I heard a little bit of that in Prisoner of Azkaban, I think. Or Chamber, I'm forgetting.

[Eric]

Yeah. Well, the Christmas special down at the theme park is excellent. The Celestina Warback and the Banshees. I think it is.

[Andrew]

And she performs year round. For the record, not just the Christmas.

[Eric]

Yeah. But they do a special Christmas themed show to honor this chapter.

[Andrew]

Martha and Alice, thank you so much for joining us today. It was wonderful having you on. And you two host the Real Weird Sisters podcast. I presume people can find it everywhere they get their podcasts, correct?

[Martha]

We're everywhere. You listen to podcasts. And we are Also on Patreon patreon.com realweirdsisters. Thank you so much for having us today.

[Alice]

Yeah, thank you so much. We had a really fun time.

[Andrew]

Listeners, check out their podcast, the Real Weird Sisters. We'll have a link in the show notes. Thank you everybody for listening. I'm Andrew.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Laura]

I'm Laura.

[Martha]

I'm Martha.

[Alice]

And I'm Alice.

[Andrew]

Bye, everyone.

[Laura]

Bye, y'.

[Andrew]

All.

[Eric]

Bye.