A (2:58)

And I'm Colin Brown and you're listening.

B (3:01)

To Murder in America.

C (3:08)

Sam.

B (4:00)

In early December of 2009, the residents of West Valley City, Utah were going about their days like normal. They had no idea that their city was about to be the site of one of America's most infamous crimes. For over a year, Susan Powell had been suspicious of her husband. Not that he was cheating or breaking any laws, but that he wanted her dead. Susan had even hidden a letter at her work that talked about the turmoil in her marriage. In it, she warned, if I die, it may not be an accident, even if it looks like one. But even after writing that Susan stayed with Josh, there were times when things got better for the couple, leaving Susan to think that maybe things would change. Maybe they could work on their marriage for the sake of their children. But sadly, it seemed as though Josh Powell didn't share that same sentiment. In late November of 2009, he started buying a bunch of outdoor tree branch wrap and a torch that could burn through steel. There didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to these purchases, which wasn't uncommon for Josh. He often spent their money on useless things. But based on what would happen next, it's suspected that Josh bought those things for a very specific purpose.

A (5:35)

On Saturdays, Susan Powell usually worked. But on this Saturday, December 5th, she decided to take the morning off because her LDS church was having a big breakfast. Josh, of course, didn't want to go, so Susan took the boys by herself. When they got home that afternoon, Josh needed to pick up some things from Lowe's and Home Depot. It's unknown what he bought, but Susan and the boys did go with him. Now, later that evening, Josh and Susan planned to go to Josh's Christmas party at work. They usually had a hard time finding babysitters because Josh would only pay $2 an hour. But on this night, Susan's friend Jovona Owings had a teenage son named Alex who agreed to watch Charlie and Brayden. So as the sun set, Josh and Susan got dressed up and once Alex arrived at their house, they left for the party.

B (6:24)

For a few hours, they mingled with Josh's co workers and Susan was her normal friendly self. Josh was his normal self as well, loud, talkative and opinionated. Now, during the party, his employers had set up this raffle to win a digital video camera, and Josh actually won it. According to the people there, everything seemed completely normal between Josh and Susan. There was absolutely no indication that there was trouble on the horizon.

A (6:59)

The following day, Sunday, December 6, Susan and the boys woke up early and got ready for church. Their church was right down the road from their house, so they actually walked there. Back at home, at 12:14pm, Josh Powell made a phone call to his Father Steve. Throughout his life, the father and son had a very strange relationship. Josh was aware of the fact that his father was once in love with Susan, but they still kept in contact. On this particular morning, Josh said that he called his father asking about a pancake recipe. Josh then went to the store to buy some groceries. Soon after, once the church service ended, Susan and the boys walked back home with their friend and neighbor, Kiersey Helliwell. Now, Kiersey knew a lot about Josh and Susan's rocky marriage. Susan would often vent to her about all of the problems they were facing. But on this morning, Kearsey said that Susan appeared to be in good spirits. Susan had recently told her that Josh seemed to be making more of an effort. But little did Kiersey know this would be the very last conversation she would ever have with Susan Powell.

B (8:03)

Susan, Charlie and Brayden walked through the doors of their West Sarah Circle home and they changed out of their church clothes. Susan then went to the living room and decided to work on this crochet blanket she was making for Brayden. However, as she picked up the roll of yarn, she saw that it was a tangled mess. So she decided to call up her friend Jovana. When Jovana answered, Susan asked if she wanted to come over. She wanted to catch up with her. But she also needed some help untangling that roll of yarn. And Jovana was happy to help. Around 2:30pm, Jovanna made her way over to the house and saw Susan sitting on the loveseat. And together they sat in the living room chatting while untangling the orange, yellow and turquoise yarn. Both Charlie and Brayden played on the floor next to them while Josh stayed in the kitchen making some food. It was cream cheese pancakes and scrambled eggs. According to Jovana, nothing seemed out of the ordinary, except for the fact that Josh was being extra helpful this afternoon. Now, like Susan's other friends, Jovana knew about the troubles within their marriage. How Josh never helped out and how he barely attended to Susan's needs. But today he was making them food. And at one point, he even walked over and wrapped a blanket around Susan.

A (9:39)

Once Josh was finished making the pancakes, they all sat down to eat, including Giovanna. But almost immediately after their meal, Susan grew extremely tired. She even excused herself so she could go take a nap. From there, Jovana untangled more of the yarn while Josh cleaned up the kitchen. Around 5pm, Josh made a comment about going to take the boys sledding. Giovanna felt like she was overstaying her welcome, so she decided to say her goodbyes and leave now. The Powell family's minivan was seen leaving their house at 5:30pm Three hours later, at 8:30pm another neighbor watched as the minivan pulled into the garage. For the next few hours, no one witnessed anything going on around the Powell home. But at 11:45pm one of their neighbors heard a car alarm going off in inside the Powell's garage. When they looked outside, they said that it was strange because their garage door was closed and all of the lights to the house were off. Then after a few minutes, the alarm stopped.

B (10:42)

The following morning was Monday, December 7, 2009. The night prior, a huge snowstorm blew through the area. The roads were icy, the temperatures were below freezing, and there had been 4 inches of snowfall throughout the previous night. But snowstorm or not, the people of West Valley City still had to go to work. So that morning, everyone got up, got dressed and started their day like they always do. Including a woman named Debbie Caldwell. Now, Debbie worked at a daycare center in town called Daydreams and Fun Things Childcare. She arrived to work that Monday morning extra early, and little by little, the kids started piling in. But as the clock ticked by, Debbie started to wonder about the Powell kids. Usually, Susan Powell dropped off Charlie and Braden every day at 6:45am but today they were late. Very late. Now, Debbie had never got a call that the boys wouldn't be there that day. So she decided to phone the Powell home, but there was no answer. She then called Susan's phone, but it went straight to voicemail. Next, she decided to call Josh's work. They ended up answering, but what they said next left Debbie with a sinking feeling. Josh didn't show up to work today. They said was a no call, no show. Debbie then called Susan's work, but to her surprise, she didn't show up to work either. After getting off the phone, Debbie was so concerned, she decided to go by the Powell house to make sure everything was okay. Now, Debbie had been to their house before. There were many times when Josh would forget to pick the boys up from daycare so she would have to drive them home. It wasn't in her job description, but Debbie really cared about Susan and the boys. She knew that they had fallen on hard times, so she did what she could to help. But on this morning, as Debbie pulled up to their house shortly after 9am she felt that something was terribly wrong. She knocked on their front door over and over again, but there was no answer. She wanted to look through the windows, but all of the blinds were shut, and from what she could observe, there was no movement inside.

A (13:23)

Desperate for answers, Debbie located the emergency contact on Josh and Susan's paperwork, which happened to be Josh's sister, Jennifer Graves. Jennifer was at her house at the time with her mom, Terri. She missed the phone call from Debbie, but soon enough she heard a worried voice play out on her answering machine. Both Jennifer and Terry were listening in as Debbie told them that Josh, Susan, Charlie, and Brayden seemed to be missing. Immediately, Jennifer and Terri got in their car and made their way to the Powell residence on West Sarah Circle. Like Debbie, they tried knocking on the door, but no one answered. They then tried getting into the house, but all the doors were locked. But the first thought in their minds wasn't that Josh had done something nefarious. In fact, they thought that maybe the family was inside dead from carbon monoxide poisoning. So Josh's mom, Terry, quickly called 911.

C (14:17)

My son and his wife and their two children haven't responded to anything this morning. They normally would go to work and take their children to the daycare two or two and a half hours ago, and they're not responding to calls or they're not responding to. To people pounding on their door and there's no truck coming out of their driveway or. There wasn't this morning a few little while ago when the daycare lady went over there. Are they out of town? I haven't had any. Anything from them saying that they would be out of town, and it's not like them to not call their daycare ladies.

B (14:52)

When the police arrived at the house, they too knocked on the door. When that didn't work, they tried looking through the windows, but the blinds were shut. The officers even tried looking through the garage window, but strangely enough, a blanket had been hung up, blocking their view. Josh's family told them about their concerns with possible carbon monoxide poisoning, and they asked if the police could break a window to get inside. And thinking that the Powell family might be in danger, they agreed. Once inside the house, the police could immediately hear a loud news broadcast coming from a stereo. They announced their presence, but no one responded. So from there, they started going room to room. At first glance, there were no signs of a struggle and no signs of forced entry. But there were some things of concern. Susan's red snow boots were sitting right by the front door. Given the recent snowstorm, she would have worn them if she was going outside. The officers also found her purse with her wallet and driver's license, both things that Susan wouldn't have left her house without. But the most concerning thing of all were the two large box fans in the living room that were blowing air on the loveseat and a wet spot on the carpet. They weren't sure what to think of it, but it appeared as if someone had been trying to clean something up. Now, after looking through the home, it was clear that Josh, Susan, Charlie, and Brayden weren't there. So where were they? And why weren't they answering their phones?

A (16:37)

Josh's sister Jennifer began knocking on doors throughout their neighborhood to see if anyone had seen the Powells. She ended up talking to Kersey Helliwell. When Kersey learned that the Powell family was missing, she said that this feeling of dread washed over her. It was a feeling that everyone felt. Jennifer began calling everyone she knew, trying to get answers. She called Susan's parents and her friends, but sadly, no one had seen or heard from her. Some people assumed that the Powells had gotten into a car accident during the snowstorm. Others were convinced that it was all a misunderstanding and that the family would soon come back home. But Josh's sister Jennifer had this nagging feeling that her brother had done something horrible.

B (17:19)

Throughout that morning, Susan's phone was flooded with calls from worried friends and family members. And I always think about that in the early days of a missing persons case, the amount of texts and calls that come in. At first, the people are composed, saying things like, hey, Susan, we can't get a hold of you. If you get this, call us back. But then over time, the calls get more frantic. Their voices are shaky as they plead, saying things like, susan, we're so worried about you. Please let someone know that you're okay. However, for Susan's loved ones, they would never get that call back.

A (18:03)

Throughout that morning, both Josh and Susan's phones continued going to voicemail. Their loved ones even started calling local hospitals. But nothing. Not knowing what else to do, police started looking into Josh and Susan's background, but there were no arrests, no domestic dispute calls, nothing. However, neighbors painted a much different story. Susan's friend Kiersey told police that Josh and Susan had been having a lot of problems. She said Josh was controlling and verbally abusive. Josh's family even talked to Steve Powell and asked if he knew where Josh and Susan were. He admitted that he had talked to Josh the day prior about that pancake recipe, but he hadn't talked to him since.

B (18:44)

Eventually, Susan's friend Jovana got a text that read, susan, Josh and the boys are missing. We don't know where they Are they haven't been seen since church. Now, Jovana knew that that wasn't true. She was at the Powell's house after church to help Susan untangle that yarn. So it seemed as if Jovana was the last person to have contact with the Powell family. Like all the others before her, Jovana tried dialing Josh's phone and to her surprise, he answered. Giovanna was frantic. Where are you? Everyone's been looking for you guys, she said. There was a brief moment of silence on the other end of the phone, but finally Josh replied that he was just driving around. Where? She asked. Josh said that he was leaving a campground two hours away near the Pony Express. He said that he, Charlie and Brayden had gone there the night before for a last minute camping trip. Well, what about Susan? Giovanna asked. Where is she? Josh responded, I don't know. She's probably at work. Jovana would later say that there were red flags everywhere. She knew that Susan didn't go to work that morning. She also knew that the family only had one car. So if Susan wasn't at home and she wasn't with Josh and the boys, then where was she?

A (20:23)

Jovana begged Josh to come home. He told her he was on the way, but it would be a while since he was two hours away. So for the next few hours, everyone anxiously waited for Josh to return back home. By 5:45pm he still hadn't come back. So his sister Jennifer tried his phone again. This time he answered. When Jennifer asked where he was, Josh tried telling her that he had been at work all day. Jennifer confronted him on the lie. And finally Josh admitted that he and the boys had been camping. But when Jennifer asked about Susan, Josh paused before coldly asking, how much do you know? The question sent chills down Jennifer's spine. She knew right then that Josh had done something to Susan. She told her brother to get home as soon as possible. Josh said he would, but first he was taking the boys to get pizza.

B (21:17)

It wouldn't be until 6:40pm when Josh's minivan finally pulled into his driveway. He was met with a crowd of concerned people who had been looking for Susan all day. And now that he was home, the police had a lot of questions for Josh. At around 7pm he made his way to the police station for questioning. Charlie and Brayden were actually in the room during the interview. But it's here where Josh tells them that he went on a last minute camping trip with the boys and that he has no idea where Susan is. Here is part of that interview.

C (21:53)

Do you know where Susan's at? No. No. When's the last time you've seen her? Probably about midnight of last night. We're at home. Where was she doing what, what was she wearing? Where was she at in the house? She was wearing, she was just wearing something comfortable. And obviously everybody's concerned. Everybody's worried. Everybody's worried about all four of you. I mean we started getting calls at 10 o' clock this morning and I, I didn't even know that was happening. I apologize that like I say, we got snowed in and there's just no cell service, so it killed my phone. You know, I just tries harder and dies. You know, in fact I actually turned it off to try to save the battery.

B (23:09)

So they asked Josh walk us through yesterday. Josh seemed pretty calm as he told them about Susan and the boys going to church, how he went to the grocery store, made some pancakes, and how Jovanna came over that afternoon. He said that Susan took a nap. Eventually Brayden fell asleep too, so he and Charlie decided to go sledding. Josh said that they came back around 8pm and from there he put Charlie to bed. For the next two hours Josh just hung out at home. But at 10pm Susan woke up and asked him to clean the couch.

C (23:49)

You wanted me to clean the couch, so I did. And then what do you mean by clean the couch? Just get rid of all the kids goobers and stuff. So like what, like a washcloth or something or okay, so you use the rug doctor and clean the couch.

B (24:19)

After cleaning the couch, Josh said he set up those fans and that's when he decided to go on the camping trip, hours away. He said that he left the house with his four and two year old sons around midnight. Susan stayed home.

C (24:36)

Well, I started heading south. Tooele turned onto the Pony Express and that's. How far down the Pony Express did you go? Oh my God, maybe 20 miles. I don't know, 20 miles on the Pont expression maybe. Okay, did you just stop and on the side of the road or stay on the road when you went down there? Is that where you just drove straight to from your house? Pretty much, yeah. Pretty much where you stopped in between? Well, I mean, no, that's it. Well, pretty much. I mean, sorry, I mean pretty much means you stopped somewhere else. No, I, I, I, I don't, I just went straight there. You drove straight to the Pony Express. So when you got to your destination, 20 miles, possibly 20 miles down the Pony Express, what did you stay on the road? Did you pull up on the side of the road? No, they have trails that you can drive on and I mean, I just found one. And how far up the trail did you go? I don't know. A miler, something. I don't know.

B (26:10)

Josh said that after they found their camping spot, he stopped and they made a fire. The boys eventually went to sleep and they spent the night camping out there. Josh said that he didn't even realize he had to go to work the next morning. He thought it was Sunday, not Monday. Now, the detectives are not believing a word he is saying. As we mentioned, they had a huge snowstorm come in that night. What father would take their two young sons camping in the middle of the night during a snowstorm? Especially when Josh had work the following morning. But they continue asking him questions. So after camping, did you come straight home? They asked. Josh said no. He drove around for a while and he even stopped at a car wash. The detectives thought this was suspicious as well. There was still snow and mud covering the roads. Why clean your car just to get it dirty again as soon as you start driving?

A (27:12)

Eventually, the detectives started asking Josh about the state of his marriage.

C (27:17)

I mean, you know, it's pretty good. I mean, we sometimes have disagreements, but, you know, everybody has disagreements, right? I think so. So nothing. It's not like we really get in screaming fights or anything. Yeah, well, use of me. This happened a couple of times. Yeah, but, you know, it's very, very rare. What, the marriage counselor? Yeah, just a marriage counselor. Just, you know, working out. Just working out issues. What kind of issues are those? Dead. I mean, frankly, she has kind of a temper. Okay. And I guess sometimes I'm lazy. Okay, so that led you guys to marriage counseling and I wasn't going to church again.

A (28:37)

They ask him where he thinks Susan is located, but Josh's answers are all over the place.

C (28:42)

First, we're taking a report at 10 o'. Clock. Well, I think she would go to work. All right. Well, she didn't go to work, dude. I mean, I think she would try to go to work. Well, she didn't even try to go to work. Well, I don't know. She didn't go to work. She wasn't at work. She didn't go to work at all today, son. Yeah. Yeah. Seem like she would have gotten up, got ready. Where's her cell phone now? I don't know. You don't know where her cell phone is? Where should I start looking? What should I start doing? What do you think I should do? You have a line to the Hospital. It's already been done. I don't know. I've never, never dealt with this. You didn't take her out to the Point Express with you guys? No. The last time you seen her was at midnight last night. You back for midnight yet? You haven't seen her, talk to her since? Okay, well, I want to check, I want to check your van. Can I check your van? Can I search your van? Search it? I guess so. Yes or no? I'm asking. I mean, you're just saying look through it? Yeah, I mean, I think so. Okay.

A (30:22)

To their surprise, Josh signed a consent form for them to search his car. But as he signed it, they couldn't help but notice some cuts all over Josh's hands. Something they would take note of. But from there, they started looking through the Powell's minivan. Josh sat in the driver's seat as they searched it. In the back, detectives found a plastic tarp. There were also tools, a shovel, rake, broom, humidifier, box cutter, hand saw, extension cord, circular saw, comforter from a queen sized bed, blue gloves, extra clothes, and a plastic tote with unopened camping gear. All very suspicious. But there wasn't any detectable blood or sign of human remains.

B (31:01)

After looking through the back, they made their way around to the front seat. During their interview, Josh said that he had his phone turned off because he didn't have a charger and he wanted to save battery. But there, right in front of them, was a working charger that was compatible with Josh's phone. Next they look in the console. They had to dig around a bit, but soon enough they spotted a pink cell phone. When they lifted it up, the detective said that Josh had a look of panic on his face. Whose is this? They asked. Josh was so shocked he couldn't even answer them. Finally, after a few seconds, they asked him, why do you have Susan's cell phone? Flustered, Josh says that he completely forgot he borrowed it from Susan.

A (31:52)

Now, at this point, it's getting pretty late, but the detectives still have a ton of questions for Josh. They ask him if he would come back to the station later the following morning. And Josh agrees. Later that night, he finally returns home with Charlie and Brayden. By that point, word had spread quickly around West Valley about Susan's disappearance. And everyone was hoping that in some sort of miracle, Susan would come back that night with some crazy story about where she had been. But deep down, most people knew that that wouldn't be the case.

B (32:25)

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A (34:31)

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C (35:07)

Never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit, or break the sound barrier. Joining the Navy sounds crazy.

B (35:14)

Saying never actually is.

A (35:16)

Like, learn why@navy.com, america's Navy forged by the sea.

B (35:28)

Early that next morning, the detectives working the case made their way to the police station, ready to interview Josh Powell again. But he wouldn't show. Instead, neighbors saw Josh cleaning out his car early that morning. Now, eventually, his sister Jennifer showed up at his house to watch the boys. And when she arrived, Josh was running around his house cleaning up. She noticed he had these wet rags in his hands and was doing laundry. Jennifer would later say that it was the strangest thing. Your wife is missing, you're supposed to be at the police station, and here you are cleaning up your house.

A (36:12)

Josh ultimately made it to the police station that day. However, he showed up three hours late.

C (36:18)

Now, on. On the way over here, I actually did call my attorneys, and they should. Said I should definitely have an attorney. What's that? I called my attorneys, which is prepaid legal. Okay. And they said that I should definitely have an attorney. Dude, I didn't read you you Miranda rights, have I? That's what they said. Okay, well, let me ask you this then, okay? Do you feel like you're under arrest? I don't. I don't know. I didn't even think it was. That didn't even sink in yesterday. But what are you worried about? What are you concerned about? You guys, you know, have implied some things, and so it concerns me. We've implied what? Well, you've implied that my hands have some kind of defensive wounds on them just because they're all cut up, and that's just. It's just the way they are. Okay, so there shouldn't be anything you need to worry about then, right? Yeah. Go ahead and ask the questions. Okay? You understand you don't have to be here, all right? And you need to understand that if you want to leave, you can leave at any time, all right? You're not under arrest. I'm not detaining you. Okay? If you don't want to be here, you can leave. If you don't want to talk, you don't have to talk. I'm just simply saying that I want to find your wife. I just want to talk, but I'm getting scared. Okay, Well, I mean, if you haven't done nothing wrong, Josh, if you didn't do anything wrong, there's nothing to be scared about, right? Well, I'm scared about the possibilities. Okay, with what's happened. Well, I'm worried about possibilities of what happened too, because I have no idea where she's at. And you don't either. And that's why I need your help. All right? Yeah. Go and ask the questions.

A (38:36)

Once again, the detective asked him to go over exactly what happened on Sunday, December 6th. And this time, Josh had a few more details. He said that after Jovana came over and they ate those pancakes, Susan went to take a nap. A few hours later, they ate hot dogs. And then he decided to take Charlie sledding. And here's what he said happened next.

C (38:57)

I was talking to my son about s'. Mores. You know, he was just super excited about cocoa and s'. Mores. There's snow. Gotta eat cocoa. It's Christmas. Then we watched a movie. Well, no, actually, then we. Oh, she wanted the couch cleaned. So I said the rug doctor and try to do something each week. You know, it's too hard if it's all wet at once, you know, dries slow. So we then we watched a movie and I think that was probably Santa Claus 3. Then we finish up the movie. I talked to her about taking the boys to do s' mores to try out the new generator, you know, and she went to bed. I finished packing and loaded him up.

B (40:37)

Once again, Josh said he didn't realize it was Sunday, which is pretty hard to believe considering Susan and the boys went to church that morning. But according to Josh, Susan didn't realize it was Sunday either.

C (40:53)

Did you make arrangements? Did you guys talk about arrangements for her getting to work? I was thinking it was gonna be Sunday and I didn't even think about work and her. I guess it didn't cross her mind at the time. Okay, and then what time. What time did you say that she went to bed? Probably 12:30ish. Okay, was there anything said before she went to bed? I mean, did you guys talk about anything else before she went to sleep? Just talked and say goodnight. That's about him.

B (41:51)

According to Josh's story, Susan was totally fine with them leaving in the middle of the night during a snowstorm to go camping hours away. So he got the boys out of bed, put them in the car and loaded everything up, including a generator, humidifier, camping supplies, a heater, and quote, a bunch of other stuff. But Josh couldn't remember what that other stuff was. Now, the previous night, Josh told the detectives that he left their house a little after midnight. But now he says it was around 1:30 to 2:00am but it was also snowing.

C (42:32)

And so I was pretty focused on the road. Okay. Looking for a turn off. Like I say, just found a trail. Were you concerned with the snow, knowing that there was a snowstorm coming in? Yeah, I was in a minivan. Actually. The minivan handles like a 4x4. Okay. Yeah, you can go some serious off roading with that minivan. Okay. So, I mean, wasn't that a concern with the storm coming in and it was already snowing? It wasn't already snowing when I left. No, it was snowing when you got out. It was, yeah. And so I was watching the road, and I'm going, how thick is this gonna get? And, you know, are we gonna get stuck? And then I thought, well, you know, what are the odds that it'll be anything that'll get us stuck out there? You know? And we have the generator and the heaters. And so I was like, well, that's. We can risk it. Yeah, already here. What the heck, you know? Okay, so about how far do you think you went west on the trail? You had a guess? I don't know, maybe 20 miles or. Who knows? Okay, so maybe 20 miles.

A (44:07)

By the time Josh got to the campsite, it was nearing 4am he said from there he started setting up all their camping gear. After that, he and the boys went to bed, but he only got about three hours of sleep. Josh said that he woke up at 7am made a fire, they ate some marshmallows for breakfast, and then they decided that they had got their camping fix in and were ready to leave. But Josh admitted that instead of driving straight home, he and the boys went on a joyride for hours and hours. Then he decided to take his car through the car wash. Wash the car at.

C (44:42)

Just. Just the first car wash I saw. Where's that at? In. I guess it's in Lehigh. What road were you on? Couldn't tell you. That one that comes through Lehigh. Okay, what was the car wash like? What kind of a car wash was it? Well, it was self serve. Self serve? Yeah. Okay, what was the name of it? I have no clue. How'd you pay for the services? Okay, so when you say self serve, is that. Describe what it looks like? Just garages that you can pull into and wash. Okay. Just get your pressure washer. No attendant that's there. No gas station. Okay. Out there. How many bays are there? I don't even know. There's. There's a handful. What side of the road sit on north.

B (46:04)

Now the detectives want to know. Did you talk to Susan while y' all were Gone. I'm sure she was worried about you guys being out in the storm and everything, but Josh said no. He had his phone off because the signal is bad out there. He was adamant that he had no idea where Susan was. Josh even tried to convince them that Susan was suicidal, but the detectives weren't buying it.

C (46:30)

I need you to tell me what you think has happened to her. I don't think she would leave on her own. Okay, That's a start. I don't think she would leave on her own. What do you think has happened? I just don't know. I mean, you know, you can sit and speculate, but I don't have any clue. Okay, what do you think I'm speculating? I. I don't know. Well, something must have crossed your mind for you to say that to me. You guys, you know, I mean, it's a fact. You know, the closest people to a person is always the top suspects, and we need to get this figured out. I have other questions. I have a couple of other questions that I want to ask you, okay? And in order for me to ask you these questions and then ask you to do something else, I have to read you your Miranda rights. You're not under arrest. You're not going to jail. Okay? I'm not going to cuff you up, all right? And like I said again, you're not under arrest. You came here on your free will. You can leave at any time. You already knew that. You still know that, right? Although I want to ask you more specific questions, and I want to see if you say that you're willing to help us out, then what do we need to do? We need to eliminate you as being a person of interest. There's nobody else out there for me to go and talk to and to clarify, So I need to clarify your story. I need to verify your story. Right. I guess at that point, then I need to. So I need to verify, to consider. So I need to first. Okay, well, and if that's the case, then that just is going to prolong the. Well, whatever. I'm just. What I'm going to do is I'm going to read your rights. I'm going to read you your rights, okay? We have your house. We have your house. You're not going to be able to go back to your house, okay? What do you mean? Your house is ours for right now. We're not gonna let you back into that house, okay? Your car is ours. We're not gonna let you have your car, okay? We need to find her Right. Isn't that what your goal is? I would hope that our goal, sustain.

A (49:08)

The Conspiracy Files is the most explosive show on the Internet. I'm your host, Colin Brown from the Paranormal files on YouTube, and I'm involved inviting you to take this twisted journey down the rabbit hole with me. Together, we will dive deep into some of the world's most dangerous and disturbing conspiracy theories. From suspicious suicides to hidden pedophile rings and high profile cover ups. On my show, no story is off limits and no detail will be spared. And trust me, after listening to just one episode, you will never look at the world the same. So if you like conspiracies, mysteries, true crime and chaos, then this is the show for you. Listen to the Conspiracy Files now on all streaming platforms or wherever you get your podcasts. Josh had a look of panic spread across his face when he learned that detectives were searching his house and car. But after being read his Miranda rights, it was obvious he was no longer interested in speaking with them.

C (50:07)

I mean, let me think about it for a couple days. And your wife is missing, Josh. Yeah, but I want to think about it for a couple of days.

B (50:18)

Something else he didn't know is that while he was being questioned, Josh's sister Jennifer had taken Charlie and Brayden to the Children's Justice Center. They were also questioned about what they had witnessed that night. Now, Charlie was only 4 years old, and questioning a child that young is difficult. But what he told the professionals was disturbing. Here is a little clip of that interview.

C (50:44)

Pretty, huh? Okay. Charlie, how old are you today? Four. You're four. Okay. And it's Charlie and your last name is Powell, is that right? And we're at the South Valley Children's Justice Center. Well, why don't you tell me what you were doing today? Try to remember everything you did today. I was playing and I did it. Eight days. You were playing and you did what? I did an eight. You didn't eat, huh? No. Are you hungry? Yeah. Yes. Did you eat some breakfast? No. No? Okay, well, what did you do last night before you went to bed? Go camping. You went camping. Tell me about camping. Camping is like where you have s'. Mores. Where you have s'? Mores? Yeah. And s' mores starts with marshmallows and graham crackers and chocolate and another graham cracker. The s' mores have marshmallows. Graham crackers and chocolate and another graham cracker. Yeah. I see. So you had s' mores yesterday? Last night, yeah. Where were you camping at? Um, I was camping At Dinosaur National Park. Dinosaur Park. Dinosaur National Park. Dinosaur National Park. Who were you camping with? My dad and my mom and my. My little brother. Dad. Your mom and your brother? Yeah. Did you sleep over there? Yeah. Yeah. Tell me what you did with your dad while you were camping. Anything fun? Yeah, while I was camping, I was. I saw some flowers that didn't look pretty. They didn't? Nah. Okay. So, Charlie, when you guys came home from camping, who came home with you? My dad and my mom stayed up in a national natural park. Your mom stayed there? Your mom stayed at the park? Where did she stay at the park? Do you know where? She stayed at the national natural Park. Do you know where at the park? No. No, see, my mom stayed where a crystal are. Where what are? Where crystals are. The crystals. Crystals? Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Crystals? Yeah. Your mom stayed where the crystals are? Yeah. Is that what you said? Yeah. Okay. Crystals. Crystals are things that grow in rocks that aren't colorful. Okay, so why did mommy stay? Cause there was flowers and crystals. That was colorful. That was what? That was colorful. Colorful, yeah. Yeah. And at night, my mom said, sleep where a flower stand and a crystal glow. Your mom was gonna sleep where the flowers and the crystals glow? No, not grow. Grow. Okay.

A (55:04)

With this information, detectives started putting together a list of places they wanted to search. Charlie mentioned Dinosaur national park, and Josh was known to take the boys to a place called Dinosaur National Monument, where they would look for geodes, which are rocks with crystals inside of them. So maybe that's what Charlie was talking about when he mentioned crystals. The only issue was that detectives had already been out to the Pony Express to see if there were any signs of Susan. They obviously didn't find her. However, they did run into a farmer who said that he remembered seeing Josh in his blue minivan, so it seemed like he had been there. Now, the Dinosaur National Monument is about three hours away from the pony Express, so it didn't seem likely that they went there. But regardless of where they went, according to Charlie, their mommy came out there with them, and when it was time to go, Mommy stayed out there. Detectives would confront Josh about this.

C (55:57)

One of our detectives just interviewed your children, and your children are telling our detectives that mom went with you guys last night and that she didn't come back. She did not go with us. Okay, well, with that just getting that information, you're not gonna go anywhere. I'm not gonna let you leave. I'm gonna detain you. You sit right here. If you want a lawyer and you want to talk or you want to change your mind and talk, or take a CBSA test, then we can do those things. But I know with that in mind, they know that she didn't go with us.

A (56:46)

But technically, Josh was allowed to leave. They still didn't have enough to place him under arrest. So they eventually told him that if he wanted to be questioned with his lawyer, then they can make that happen. But by that point, Josh decided the interview was over. He wanted to leave the police station, but they were going through his vehicle there. So they told him he'd have to wait until they finished their search. They also told him that they needed to look through his cell phone. Josh handed it over to them, but somehow he was able to secretly remove the SIM card without them knowing.

B (57:18)

Now, for a minute, let's go over everything that was found in the house on West Sarah Circle. Unfortunately, because they didn't get a search warrant that first day, Josh had been cleaning the house. Neighbors and his own family witnessed him doing so. But nonetheless, they began their search. We already talked about how Susan's purse, ID and credit cards were found in the home. And the idea of her running away without those things just didn't seem plausible. Back at the police station, Josh had tried to convince the detectives that Susan was suicidal. When they made their way through the home, they found Susan's calendar, which was full of upcoming events she was excited for. And according to the people that knew her, Susan wouldn't have taken her own life. Now, as for the physical evidence within the home, there wasn't much, but investigators really wanted to look in the area where those fans were pointed on the love seat and the carpet. To the naked eye, there wasn't anything to see. Josh had already admitted to cleaning it, but when crime scene investigators sprayed the area down, they found tiny droplets of blood. Now, it definitely wasn't the kind of blood you would see with blunt force trauma, but they did say that it almost looked like someone had coughed up the blood. So they took that evidence for further testing to see whose blood it was. And when they looked through the rest of the home, it was pretty clean. There was no indication that someone had been murdered there. But a big speculation was that Josh had possibly poisoned Susan. In some cases, poisoning can cause people to cough up blood. And remember how just hours before she disappeared, Josh had made those pancakes. Everyone ate them, including Susan's friend Jovana. But authorities were wondering, what if Josh poisoned Susan's shortly after she ate them? Susan even got really tired and excused herself so she could go take A nap even further. Many of Susan's friends said that in the weeks before her death, Susan was constantly nauseous. So much so, she thought she was pregnant. But when she took a pregnancy test, it came back negative. So there was speculation that Josh had been poisoning her. And what if this time it worked? Investigators went through the home looking for anything that could have poisoned Susan, but they didn't find anything. If Josh did poison her, he likely got rid of that evidence as soon as he knew the police were onto him. Now, the police also discovered huge discrepancies within Josh's story. On the day that Susan disappeared, Josh hadn't been answering any phone calls from their worried loved ones. The first call he answered was from Susan's friend Giovanna. Now, on that call, Josh told her he was near the pony express, hours away. But phone records would prove he was lying. Josh was actually just a few blocks away, right there in town. But still, it would take him hours to finally come back home. After hanging up the phone with Jovanna, Josh just drove around aimlessly with Charlie and Brayden in the backseat. He also left Susan the following voicemail.

C (60:56)

Well, Susan, we are on our way back, and I can't believe that somehow my brain missed the day. I thought today was Sunday. That was really, really stupid. But anyway, hopefully you got to work. Okay, and of course, give me a call. We're, I guess, probably not picking you up, but let me know if you have plans afterwards or whatever. So anyway, we ran into every conceivable problem, and it was kind of a nightmare, but. Oh, well, I mean, there was some fun aspects. All right, I'll talk to you later. Okay, bye.

A (61:38)

After this, he drove by Susan's work and left her another voicemail.

C (61:43)

Hello? I'm out here waiting for you, so anywhere in front.

A (61:54)

Now, as we know, Josh told police that he had to borrow Susan's cell phone, which is why he had it with him that day. But why would Josh call Susan's cell phone if it's in the car with him? It seemed as if he was trying to cover his tracks, make it look like he was just an innocent father coming home from a camping trip and checking up on his wife.

B (62:13)

Back at the police station, investigators were also searching through Josh's car, and this time, they found a trash bag filled with burned items, like metal, sheetrock and wires. It seemed as though Josh was trying to destroy evidence, but again, there was nothing incriminating enough to place him under arrest. However, they did secretly put a tracker on his car. If Josh had dumped Susan's body somewhere. They were hoping that with the building pressure, he would go back to the dump site. But that wouldn't be the case. As it turns out, as investigators were searching his car, Josh left the police station. And for the next 18 hours, Josh Powell was missing.

A (63:08)

It was later discovered that he left the police station and hopped in a taxi. He told the taxi driver to take him to the airport. It seemed as if Josh was running away, but instead of getting on a flight, he went to the airport's rental cars and rented a silver Ford Focus. However, what he did from there, no one knows. Josh went AWOL for almost an entire day. We do know that at some point, he ended up in Tremonton, Utah, where he bought a new cell phone. We also know he spent a lot of that time driving. In fact, Josh ended up putting 807 miles on his rental car. He would later tell his family that he was just driving around Salt Lake City. But who knows?

B (63:48)

In the 18 hours that Josh Powell was missing, everyone's suspicions about him grew stronger. Of course, Charlie and Brayden were looked after by their loved ones, but they couldn't believe that Josh would just up and leave without telling anyone, especially when his wife was missing. Who does that now? Pretty early on, Josh's father, Steve was also looked into. As we know, Steve Powell had an unhealthy obsession with Susan. But phone records show that Steve was in Washington State on the day that Susan disappeared. But on Tuesday and Wednesday, Steve called out of work. And for a time period while Josh Powell was on the run, Steve's whereabouts were unaccounted for. Some people have speculated that he met up with his son during this time, but we don't know. Much of those 18 hours is still a mystery to this day. But finally, on Wednesday night, Josh came back home. By that point, the disappearance of Susan Powell was all over the news. So Josh was met with reporters right outside of his house. KUTV reporter Chris Jones approached him. And here is what Josh had to say.

C (65:09)

Hi, Josh. How are you? Okay. Yeah. How you doing? I know. Well, I've been trying to figure out what I can do so I don't sit idle. I'm dealing with this repeatedly. Sure. I was just gonna go in and get my kids booze, see how they're, you know, how are they doing? They've been doing good, as far as I can tell. How about you? I mean, I know this is difficult. How are you doing? I mean, this is such. There's gonna be a lot of emotions going on for you. You know, people have been really helpful and supportive, so it's been. It's been really hard, but, you know, you just keep going. What can you tell us about that night? I mean, from what we understand, you went camping and I came home. Tell us what. What happened that night? Yeah, I just. A lot of times I just go camping with my boys. You know, not anything big. I just go overnight, and we do s' mores and stuff like that. And so I just went with boys, responding to some s' mores in the morning, and then we did. And then when we got home, on the way home, I found out that people were worried about us and we're missing. And. And the report is, is that neither you nor your wife called in sick, and they said that that's not usual. What. What are your thoughts on that? No, it's. It's not usual. No. You know, why. Why didn't. I was still not thinking that it was Sunday. Like, I didn't go to church and I. I just missed a day and come back Sunday until you get confused by what day it was. Now, from what we understand, there's nothing. There's looks like no foul play in the home. It appears that your wife left her cell phone in person. Hers. I mean, do you have any. I mean, does she. Does she go off to sort of clear her head? I mean, do you have any idea where she could be? No, she. She. She'll leave during the day and. But she's never left overnight. Does she have any enemies that you can think of? I would. I don't. I can't think of anyone now. A lot of talk on the Internet. I mean, a lot. Obviously, in cases like this, and, you know, this, the, The. The. The instant they talk about the husband, they think that he's the suspect, that he did something. Is there anything you want to say to address that? I. I didn't do anything. I mean, I. I don't know where she's at. I don't even know where to start looking. And the boys, I mean, what do you tell them about. I haven't told them anything. I mean, they've overheard stuff, but I haven't. I mean, by the time it all started, I. I was already. I, you know, it was already late and went to bed. We just been ever since. And your wife laid down that night, right? She wasn't feeling well. And then you just. And that's when you went camping. Where'd you guys go camping? She wasn't feeling well. She was feeling well. She just went to bed about five is after we heard. We heard five. I don't know if that's true. You would know better than we. No, she went to bed that night. And what time did you go camping, would you say? I, you know, I. I got out to a pretty late start. 9ish. No, it was. It was later. Basically I'm just trying to. Trying to figure out what I can do and. We'll try to find her and try to take care of life in general. Okay. What do. What do you guys camp? He went down south to the. To some trails down there. Do you mean like a library? No, no, we. We actually just went down to the. The Pony Express. Pony Express trail. Yeah. Okay. They can't pronounce the video, but I guess I better go. Okay, well, good luck to you. We appreciate you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

A (69:15)

Now, around this time, Susan's friends, including Kiry Hellell Jo doing everything they could to help. A Facebook group called Friends and Family of Susan Powell was created and over 1200 people joined in it. Kearcey wrote. Susan, I love you so much. I wish you could know how hard we are working for you. My heart has a huge hole in it. Your dad is being so strong and awesome. We've mobilized the Internet and the West Valley PD is using everything they can to find you. We will not give up until we find you. Don't give up. I pray all day that angels will guide you and watch over you. She also created an organization called Service for Susan where people from all around volunteered in Susan's name. All of the money raised was sent to women's shelters. Meanwhile, investigators were still keeping a close eye on Josh. And that weekend he decided to leave town again. This time they could follow him due to that tracker on his car. And to their surprise, they. He actually went to a strip club in Nevada just days after his wife disappeared. Now, from the very beginning, investigators suspected that Josh had something to do with Susan's disappearance. But after speaking with Susan's co worker, Linda Bagley, they were more sure than ever. Like we mentioned in part one, Susan had been afraid that Josh was going to kill her. She was so sure of it, she even wrote a last will and testament that she kept at her work. She made sure that Linda knew where the letter was. And if anything happened to her, Linda was to tell the police. So when Susan turned up missing, that's exactly what she did. Soon enough, the police opened the letter. And what they read sent a chill down their spine.

B (70:53)

I want it documented somewhere that there is extreme turmoil in our marriage. He has threatened to skip the country and told me straight out, if we divorce, there will be no lawyers, only a mediator and I will ruin you. Your life will be over and the boys will not grow up with a mom and dad. If something happens to me, please talk to my sister in law, Jenny Graves, my friend Kiersey Helloell. Check my blogs, on my MySpace, check my work desk, talk to my friends, co workers and family. It is an open fact that we have life insurance policies over 1 million. If we die in the next four years. CO workers, family and friends hear me say this occasionally, but if I die, it may not be an accident, even if it looks like one. Take care of my boys. I want my parents, Judy and Chuck Cox, very involved and in charge of their lives. I love my boys. I live for them. And I choose not to cheat or do drugs because I wouldn't want to risk losing them. I love you, Charlie and Brayden, and I'm so sorry you've seen how wrong and messed up our marriage is. I would never leave you.

A (72:06)

Investigators also found that DVD that Susan had made where she went through her home recording her assets. They even scheduled him for a polygraph. But of course, he didn't show up for it. More than anything, the police wanted to arrest Josh right there and then. But they also knew that they needed to find Susan's body. Investigators had learned about Josh's recent purchases in the weeks before Susan's disappearance, specifically that tree wrap and the torch that could cut through steel. They feared that Josh had dismembered Susan's body and discarded it around the Pony Express trail. However, after searching the area, they found nothing. But some of Susan's friends had told police about some strange comments Josh had made months earlier. Apparently, they had all been talking about a recent crime show, and Josh told the group that if he were to murder anyone, he would dump the body down and abandon mine. So investigators planned to start searching those soon enough.

B (73:02)

Susan had been missing for a whole week, and Josh's strange behavior continued. He even reached out to Susan's chiropractor and he canceled all of her future appointments. Then, less than two weeks into Susan's disappearance, Josh packed up he and the boy's things and they moved in with his father 12 hours away. In Washington, Josh told Susan's friends that he had been fired from his job and wouldn't be able to afford the mortgage on the house. But when the people of Puyallup learned that Josh Powell was living There, the community was angry. A reporter even went to their home for an interview. But Steve Powell slammed the door in their face and said that his son was being vilified. But the community wanted to send him a message. In fact, someone in Steve Powell's neighborhood started going door to door asking if everyone could tie purple ribbons, Susan's favorite color, around their trees. And they did more than just that. Soon enough, the neighborhood was filled with purple ribbons, streamers, and even pictures of Susan. One neighbor said, quote, we're not going to let him forget now. While in Puyallup, Josh started doing everything he could to make himself look better. He and the boys even started going to church, which was strange because Josh hated going to church. He introduced himself to the bishop as the man with the missing wife. Charlie and Brayden were also going to Sunday school there. And according to one of the Sunday school teachers, Charlie had been misbehaving. Now, she didn't know his backstory, and she told Charlie, if you don't follow instructions, I'm going to tell your mommy and daddy. To which Charlie responded, my mommy's dead.

A (75:12)

Hey, everyone, Colin here. Just a very quick interruption. If you could please take 5, 10 seconds out of your day and if you haven't already left us a five star review on whatever platform you're listening to the show on, please just take a moment today and go do that for Courtney and I. Good reviews can help boost the show, help us to get discovered by other listeners. And also, we love hearing from everybody and seeing your reviews and seeing your kind words. We don't really have a place to interact with y'.

C (75:40)

All.

A (75:40)

So on the reviews is one place where we just love hearing from everybody that listens. But anyways, let's get back to the story. Just wanted to drop that reminder in here and thank you to everyone who's done it before and who's going to do it now.

B (75:56)

Now, in the two weeks after Susan's disappearance, her loved ones decided to hold a candlelight vigil in Washington. By that point, investigators had listed Josh as a person of interest, so everyone was shocked to see that he showed up. The entire time he stood at the vigil, people from their community whispered and gave him dirty looks. And while there, reporter Shamari Stone would confront Josh. Here is a clip from that night.

C (76:29)

We are deeply touched by the good wishes that we have received.

A (76:33)

Chuck Cox holds a candle at his daughter Susan Powell's vigil. The worried father surrounded by dozens of relatives and friends. Susan was reported missing in Utah two weeks ago, where Is she, Where's my daughter?

C (76:45)

I, I, where could she be? When will something break?

A (76:52)

Cox and many people in the somber crowd were surprised when Susan's husband Josh showed up. He's a person of interest in his wife's disappearance. He's in town to celebrate Christmas with relatives on his side of the family.

C (77:04)

We've had no contact with Josh at all. We don't know what his plans are. I didn't know he was even coming up here.

A (77:11)

Police say he told them the last time he saw Susan was around midnight on December 7th when he took their two sons camping in the cold. He brought one of the boys to the vigil and strangely enough, Cox wasn't allowed to see his grandson. A group shielded the child and Josh.

C (77:26)

Powell from everyone's view through the legs there. I got a peek of Charlie. He's, he's looking pretty good. Looks like he doesn't have a clue what's going on.

A (77:33)

Moments later, Powell tried to sneak away and dodge our cameras. I caught up with him near some bushes.

C (77:39)

Police say you're a person of interest. Josh. Do you have anything to say? Why did you take your kids camping in sub freezing temperatures? What do you think happened to Susan? Do you have anything to say to your supporters?

A (77:55)

While he remains silent, the crowd sings Silent Night, Susan's favorite song.

C (78:07)

We're hopeful. We're hopeful. And how long is this going to take? I know you know, we've been in contact with the, with West Valley police and we are doing everything I can possibly do to get people looking for my daughter and get leads.

A (78:28)

During this time, the search for Susan was still underway. During Charlie's interview with police, he mentioned that his mom slept where the flowers and crystals grow. He also mentioned the Dinosaur National Monument. So investigators focused their searches there, but sadly, they again came up with nothing. All the while, detectives were still keeping a close eye on Josh. To their surprise, they learned almost immediately after Susan went missing, he withdrew her retirement money. And because he was power of attorney over her accounts, he was allowed to.

B (79:01)

Now, in last week's episode, we briefly mentioned a car wreck that Josh was in months before Susan's disappearance. He was rear ended, but it was a pretty minor accident. The airbags didn't deploy. But afterwards, Josh went out and bought that expensive massage chair for his back. Well, months later, in the weeks after Susan's disappearance, Josh went to a physical therapist and was diagnosed with a rotator cuff injury. He blamed it on the car accident he had been in. But Josh never complained about his shoulder hurting until after Susan went missing. Many people speculated that he got the injury while moving Susan's body. And some other people speculated that Josh didn't act alone. When the details came out about Josh's father, Steve Powell, and his obsession with Susan, detectives wanted to speak with him. And Steve actually admitted that he was in love with Susan. But of course, he said he had nothing to do with her disappearance. And as we mentioned, phone records showed he was in Washington for the majority of that week. Now, in late December, investigators would finally get the results back from those droplets of blood that were found in the living room. And just like they suspected it was Susan's blood, for Susan's family, this was the confirmation they needed. From the very beginning, they knew that Josh had done something with her. But now they were sure of it. And strangely enough, despite all of the concerning things surrounding Josh Powell, his family was still supporting him. Well, everyone except his sister, Jennifer. From that very first day that Susan went missing, she knew that Josh was responsible for her disappearance. She was so convinced of it, she even asked detectives if she could wear a wire and ask her brother some questions. So in early 2010, they would do just that.

A (81:12)

At the time, the Powell family had all got together at Steve Powell's house to have dinner. Jennifer wearing a wire and her husband arrived at the home. Trying to act as normal as they possibly could during dinner, they kept the conversation civil, but afterwards, she pulled her brother aside. Courtney and I are going to reenact how their conversation went. Jennifer urged her brother to take a plea deal, saying, if you go to jail, you won't be able to see your boys for years. And Josh said, don't be ridiculous.

B (81:42)

Where were you going in that rental car during those 18 hours?

A (81:46)

Nowhere.

B (81:47)

So you just drove around all over the place?

A (81:50)

Yeah. There's no plea bargain. My attorney has told me. Just don't talk about it. About specifics.

B (81:56)

What happened? What happened that night?

A (81:59)

I already sat down with the cops and told them everything.

B (82:02)

You haven't told me anything. I asked and you haven't said anything to me. Why won't you tell me? Why won't you put my mind at ease and tell me what happened? I'm your sister. Susan was my friend. She is your wife, for crying out loud. What happened?

A (82:21)

I don't know what happened.

B (82:23)

Well, what did you do? What did you do that night? What do you know? It just doesn't seem like you care at all.

A (82:33)

I can't believe you'd say that.

B (82:35)

You walked away.

A (82:37)

What do you mean, walk away?

B (82:39)

You're trying to get rid of your house.

A (82:41)

The house I can't afford.

B (82:45)

Now. It's here where their father Steve walked into the room and he told Jennifer to leave. He even started cussing at his daughter, telling her, you are a goddamn fucking bitch is what you are to talk about your brother and my son that way and make things up. Tensions were clearly rising, so Jennifer's husband Kirk stepped in, telling Steve to back off. Josh's younger sister Alena started yelling at Jennifer too. At some point, Jennifer brought up the fact that Steve had made passes at Susan. And Alena chimed in screaming, she's a lying sack of shit. Talking about Susan. And from there, Jennifer, Jennifer had had enough. So she and her husband left. She couldn't believe that her family was defending Josh when he was so clearly guilty. On the drive home, Jennifer sobbed as she told her husband, my God, he killed her.

A (83:52)

In the early days, Josh tried to act like a concerned husband. He even started going to church. But that was pretty short lived. In fact, about a month later, Josh quit going and he started telling people, I don't believe in God anymore. By this point, Josh also refused to cooperate with investigators. With The Powells being 12 hours away in Washington, it complicated their investigation. In March 2010, the police got a warrant to do a welfare check on Charlie and Brayden. They also attempted to interview Charlie again. But this time around it was clear that Josh had been coaching him. You're going to hear him talk about John. John is Josh's brother.

C (84:32)

Do you remember? You went camping? Yeah, but we can't do that over again. No. How come? Because it's not good for us. Why isn't camping good for you? Camping is good for me, but we have to find our camping stuff to go camping. You have to find your camping stuff to go camping again? Yeah. Yeah. Charlie, has anybody talked to you about your mom? No. I don't know where she is. She got lost somewhere. She got lost somewhere. Tell me about your mom getting lost. I don't know where she got lost. I didn't saw where she got lost. You didn't see where she got lost? Where was the last place you did see her? John knows. John Does? Yeah, but see, because he's one of our uncles that lives with my family. He lives with your family and he knows what? He went where Sugar Can Run. He's there. And where. Do you know where Susan went? No. John does, we can't talk about Susan or camping. I always keep things as secret. Well, when we talk about your mom, we can't keep that a Secret because your mom would want us to talk about. Would want us to talk about her. Who told you you can't talk about your mom? No, II My brain told me. Your brain told you that? Well, your brain needs to tell you that it's okay to talk about your mom because we want to find your mom. So in order to find your mom, we got to talk about we are doing blessings. You're doing blessings? Yeah, but then stuff. But it's okay that I keep a secret. Cause we are doing blessings. You know what? It's not okay to keep secrets if it will help us find your mom. So we need to talk about those secrets. Did somebody tell you to keep a secret?

A (87:24)

Did you see a secret?

B (87:25)

No, only my brain did.

C (87:27)

Your brain did. What else did your brain tell you about the secret? My brain? My brain won't tell me to say that. Your brain won't tell you to say it. Do you want to ask? Can you do? Charlie, think really hard about the last time that you saw your mommy. Okay? And tell me everything about the last time you saw your mommy. I didn't saw her last time. You didn't? Do you remember saying you went camping and your mommy went camping but your mommy stayed? Do you remember saying that? Now, now, now. I don't know where she got lost. John didn't tell me where she got lost. John didn't tell you?

A (88:38)

Eventually Charlie said his mom went to the North Pole.

C (88:44)

But, but she, but, but she, but she didn't tell where to find her in the North Pole. She didn't tell you where to find her in the North Pole. Yeah. Did you hear anybody at home talk about where your mommy is? Huh? But, but, but I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I know that. Don't ask me to. Why can't you talk about her? Who said I, I, I think she is in the North Pole. That's. I guess she didn't tell me there was a party in the North Pole. She didn't tell you there was a party in the North Pole? There was really a party in the North Pole? Yeah. Best friend went there too. But they can find her way. Yeah, but buddy. But he won't come back. She won't come back unless it stops snowing. Who told you that? No one. That's my dad. Did your dad told you that?

A (90:20)

In this next part, Charlie starts talking about his aunt Jennifer and her husband Kirk. By that point, they were estranged. And it's obvious that Charlie had been overhearing what his family was saying about them.

C (90:32)

I bet they wanted Ed to die. Who did? Jenny and Kirk. Jenny and Kirk? Yeah. I don't listen to them.

A (90:48)

Now. Investigators didn't get very far in their interview with him, but on the drive back to their home, Charlie said something that caught their attention. In the backseat of the car, he said, I'm just gonna tell them I was with friends. They asked him what he meant, and he said, I'm just going to tell my dad that I was with my friends. It seemed as if he was nervous that his dad would be mad at him for talking with the police. And sure enough, when Charlie got back home, one of the detectives heard him tell Josh, I was with my friends.

B (91:19)

The investigators in Utah felt like they had reached a dead end, but they would continue searching for Susan. In April of 2010, they started searching the west deserts of Utah. Josh had made comments about how if he were to ever kill someone, he would dump their body in an abandoned mine shaft. So they started searching them, but sadly, their searches came up empty. Eventually, the FBI would even contact Josh's father, Steve, for an interview. It seemed as though they believed he knew more than he was letting on. And when they sat down with him, Steve admitted that Josh's camping story was very suspicious. But strangely enough, it also seemed like he truly believed Susan was still alive. Alive. Later on, they would find journal entries of his that read the following.

A (92:16)

I wonder if Susan is missing me. I have these images of Susan in mind, sunbathing and strolling on new beaches in Brazil, letting everyone and anyone see what I've wanted to see. I've also fantasized about being at a new resort with her.

B (92:30)

On May 17, Steve wrote this in his journal.

A (92:35)

Even if she's not into some deep doo doo, she really no longer has a home. Josh rented out their house. He really doesn't want her back and doesn't want her to be around the boys. I would take her to my home and bedroom in a minute, but I would have to deal with some very strong objections from my kids. I'm sure none of them would be thrilled to have her shack up with me and become by default the queen of the house.

B (92:58)

Based on these journal entries, it seemed as though Steve believed that Susan ran away. And maybe in his own sick mind, he thought she did it because Susan wanted to be with him. Or maybe he wrote these, expecting the authorities to read it. We don't know. In another journal entry, Steve talked about the searches going on and how Charlie had been listening in on their adult conversations. The journal entry read this.

A (93:27)

This afternoon, Charlie Commented that mommy is lost in the desert. Josh and Michael were also present. So we all heard it. I asked him where he had heard that. He said he had made it up in his own mind. Michael said, we've been talking too much about that desert search that was planned for April 10th. Supposedly a couple thousand people are going to be searching in the area Josh and the boys camped on the night of December 6th. Susan went missing the next day. We discussed that plan and made derisive comments about it. Charlie doesn't miss much.

B (94:02)

Before they knew it, it had been six whole months since anyone had seen Susan alive. Steve and Josh Powell were still trying to convince everyone that Susan had run away. But everyone that knew her knew that she wouldn't have left her children. Which is exactly why in her last will and testament, she wrote, charlie and Braden, I would never leave you. And sadly, with all of the chaos and turmoil going on within their family, it seemed as though it started having an effect on Charlie and Brayden. In 2010, Charlie started going to kindergarten at Carson Elementary School. But according to his teachers, he would say, say things like, God isn't real and Mormons are bad and they need to be killed. He was clearly just repeating what his father was saying. On another day, Charlie told his teachers that the best way to kill a bear is to dig a hole, put the bear inside, and then throw rocks at it. Then once it's dead, he said, cover the hole with a tree and plant raspberry bushes over top. In another instance, Charlie was trying to kill a bird, and he told his teachers that he wanted to kill it by burying it with sticks, rocks, and flowers so no one would touch it. Many people wondered if that's what Josh did to Susan.

A (95:30)

Now, I know these behaviors and comments are concerning, but just imagine all that Charlie had gone through, all the things that he possibly saw. He was just clearly acting out. But according to his teachers, Charlie was a good kid. They said he was smart, curious, a serious boy, and precocious. He liked to write stories and draw pictures, but he often played by himself. He didn't get along well with the other kids. At one point, the classmate said something about Charlie's mom being dead. Charlie screamed, my mom isn't dead. She's away from her parents because they abused her. His teacher pulled Charlie aside and asked if he was okay, and Charlie replied, I feel a little better because I'm smart and I can figure out a way for liars like this student to go to jail for 14 years. During another instance, Charlie told a classmate I don't want you to sit by me. I'm going to come to your house at night and kill you. When asked why he said that, Charlie said that he wanted to kill that boy because he was Mormon. So, as you can see, Josh and Steve Powell had a heavy influence on Charlie, two of the worst influences a young boy could possibly have. Now, as for Brayden, his teachers said that he was very needy. He cried a lot and had high anxiety. He always wanted to be helped. At one point in 2010, Brayden drew a picture of his family camping. He then told his teacher that his mommy was in the trunk.

B (96:52)

Sadly, as time went on, investigators continued searching for Susan with no luck. When her birthday and the anniversary of her disappearance would pass, her loved ones would get together to honor Susan. Meanwhile, the Powell family was still doing everything in their power to make their grief even more difficult. In fact, Josh had made this website called susanpowell.org. he actually got the domain for it back in 2006, years before Susan went missing. But after her disappearance, he started posting on it. On the home page, there was a picture of Susan, Josh and the boys camping in the snow. It was an older picture, but it's the same thing he claimed to be doing on the night she went missing. Now, in the beginning, Josh said he created the website to help find Susan. But over time, it kind of became this disturbing blog. Someone, assuming it was either Josh or his father, Steve, would upload these rants about how they believe Susan ran away with another man. They talked about how Susan was mentally unstable. Josh even said that Susan, quote, would be chewed up like hamburger when she comes back. The website talked Point Lee about the Mormon Church, how Josh's sister Jennifer turned on them. And they also started talking about how Susan was emotionally abused when she was a child. They even threatened to post Susan's childhood journals. It was clear that Josh was trying to intimidate Susan's parents, but they had nothing to hide. And we will get into Susan's childhood journals a little later. But as you can imagine, this was incredibly disheartening for her family. And to make matters worse, they were still no closer to finding her.

A (98:53)

Now, by the summer of 2011, it had been a year and a half since Susan disappeared. They had exhausted all of their search efforts in Utah. And even though they still hadn't found her, they were still doing everything they could to get answers. Investigators even came up with Operation Tsunami. Now, earlier on, authorities found that in the days before Susan's disappearance, Josh had been Googling the town Eli Nevada so they thought that maybe he had dumped her body there. They decided to tap Josh's phone and staged this search in the abandoned mine shafts there. They were hoping that Josh would see the news coverage of the searches and get spooked. Maybe he would then call his family and talk about where Susan's body was. But sadly, Josh didn't care at all about the searches. He didn't call his family members and he didn't give up any information. Once again, authorities were back at square.

B (99:44)

One with the rising tensions between the Powells and Susan's loved ones. Chuck and Judy Cox desperately wanted to have a relationship with Charlie and Brayden. They were the last piece of their daughter that they had. They loved them so much. And according to Susan's last will and testament, she wanted her parents to have custody of the boys if anything ever happened to her. But sadly, Josh wouldn't let his in laws spend much time with the boys. Many people believe that he was scared of what the kids would say when he wasn't around. Every single action that Josh Powell took was so destructive in every way. Chuck and Judy knew that Josh was behind Susan's disappearance, but there wasn't anything anyone could do about it. Without finding her body. They couldn't place him under arrest. So they were essentially stuck in this never ending loop. And eventually Josh even got a protective order against Susan's parents. The protective order came after an incident at Lowe's. Chuck and Judy Cox happened to be at Lowe's at the same time as Josh, Charlie and Brayden. When the boys saw their grandparents, they ran over to them in excitement, but Josh quickly stopped them. Chuck looked at him and said, can't we hug our grandchildren? Josh told him, no, you may not. Goodbye. Josh said that Chug think. Then mouthed, you're dead. Josh would later tell a judge that he feared for his life and that Susan's parents were stalking him. And sadly, the temporary restraining order was granted. Now In August of 2011, the Cox family and Susan's friends decided to hold a honk and wave event near a Fred Meyer store which happened to be right, right near the Powell's house. News cameras arrived to film the dozens of people with signs that read Honk if you remember Susan. But then to everyone's surprise, Steve Powell actually drove up, jumped out of the car and confronted Chuck Cox on live television.

C (102:05)

Cameron, I thought I could just sneak little shots. Yeah, I did. I like. Okay, that's fine. And I guess we're here, right? You're not believable.

B (102:13)

Yeah, right.

C (102:14)

Right. I'm not. You are, though. Anyway, is there any other question that I can answer for anybody? I'm totally open to anything. I mean, we've got a lot of information about the Cox family and about Susan. A lot of it from her journals, a lot of it from Josh's. You know, he lived with Susan for eight years before she left. He knows a lot that is not in the journals. But the journals confirm what he knows. And Susan told about her family, about her growing up.

A (102:44)

Steve Powell rambles on about how Susan was still alive, how she ran off with another man, and how his son was the victim in all of this.

C (102:54)

Why come here today? Why not? Well, I just came down here because we were going to get a picture of Chuck Cox. We believe he is in violation. Violation of a restraining order. Because Josh. Josh shops at this store and he is not supposed to. I know, I know. It doesn't mention Fred Meyer, but he knows we shop at Fred Meyer. He knows this is our neighborhood store, and that's why. No, we're gonna. You guys live a few months, John.

A (103:20)

A few miles apart from each other.

C (103:21)

Exactly. These. Knew he was gonna be here. And you came here yourself knowing that There's a restraint. We just wanted. I wanted to. We wanted to see if he was here because we wanted to be able to have something to say at the hearing on Tuesday. We're having a hearing Tuesday. We were going to bring this up with the media. He brought it up with the media. But you came here. I did come here. Yes, I did. Because I wanted to see what was going on and I wanted to. And I have one question for you. How is you coming here helping define Susan? It isn't helping to find Susan. How is your standing at our neighborhood market helping define find Susan? Chuck, people see the signs, her pictures out in the. In the media. It's been all over the media. If somebody has seen her, then they can report to the police. And you're only going to do this. Which other stores are you doing this at, Chuck? We're doing it in West Valley City. Which other stores in Puyallup, other than our supermarket? This neighborhood up here is where we're doing it. I've only got a small group of. Are you doing it at the store you shop at? I shop at this store. Are you doing it at Walmart down there? No, we. This is the corner. No, you're not. Okay, there. They're only doing it in the neighborhood where we live. They put. This is not your neighborhood. They put the billboard that about Susan right outside of our neighborhood, right down here. They did their little flyer campaign in our neighborhood. They taped flyers right to the post in front of my house. Why would you have a hard time, though, with getting her picture out? I don't have a hard time. We've actually talked about putting a picture of, you know, a page on our website called the 50 Faces of Susan Powell.

B (104:53)

And I just feel so bad for Susan's family. Imagine having to go through the grief of losing her and then having to deal with these monsters from this point forward. The Powell family kept threatening to post Susan's childhood journals. They said it would show just how mentally unstable Susan was and how she was extremely promiscuous. I guess they thought it would support their theory that she ran away. But Susan's family did not want those journals posted. They felt that it was a huge invasion of privacy and they were right. Name one person on earth that would want their teenage journals posted for the world to read. Now.

A (105:37)

On August 22nd, Josh's sister, Alina Powell sent the Associated Press seven pages of Susan's personal diary. Steve wrote in the email, susan is a lot more vulnerable emotionally than Chuck and Judy Cox would like people to believe. A few days later, a judge ordered that the Powells not release any more personal diary entries of Susan. And the Cox family filed a civil lawsuit against the Powells. But unbeknownst to everyone, this case was about to take a shocking and disturbing turn. On August 25, 2011, 20 detectives showed up at Steve Powell's home with a search warrant. Josh opened the door, shocked to see them. Behind Josh was his sister Alena and his brother John. Detectives told the siblings that they would have to wait outside while they searched the home. Aleena was very uncooperative. She protested and refused to leave. But soon enough, they were all forced into the backyard as detectives descended upon the home. It was the middle of the summer, but the house didn't have ac. Charlie and Brayden were found in one of the rooms, and according to the police, they were starved for attention. They wanted the detectives to play with them. Brayden even jumped into one of the detectives laps and showed him a book about science. The boys complained that they were hungry and thirsty, but but stated that Josh ignored their requests. But as the detectives went through the home, they couldn't help but notice how cluttered it was. Going through all that clutter would take hours, but what they would find was something they would never forget.

B (107:12)

One of the first things police wanted to look at was Josh's computers. But when they asked Josh for the passwords, he said he couldn't remember. Now, they would eventually get into his computers, and we will talk about that more in a second. But in Josh's room, they found a list regarding Susan's disappearance. On it, Josh wrote, quote, throw out more theories. Now, from there, the detectives went to Steve's room. Inside was this locked filing cabinet. Once they got it open, detectives found all of these pictures of Susan that seemed to have been taken without her knowledge. They were labeled, susan Powell washing her face. Susan Powell brushing her teeth. Susan Powell on stool wearing pantyhose. In some of the images, Susan was only wearing underwear. They also found pictures of naked women with their faces cut out and Susan's face taped over top. They found pictures and videos of Steve masturbating to images of Susan. Then, in a file titled A jerk off session, Steve would document how long each of his orgasms lasted. Beneath that, detectives located baggies that were labeled with a bunch of Susan's things. Steve had taken her bras, underwear, her shirts, and her temple garments. The garments are sacred in the Mormon church. Like we mentioned in part one, when Susan and Josh were living with Steve, he would go through her dirty laundry and take her items for his own sick desires. Detectives also found those wedding pictures of Susan and Josh where Steve had cut Josh's face out. They found those baggies full of Susan's used tampons, toenail clippings, and cotton balls with her fingernail polish. With each discovery, the detectives could not believe what they were seeing. Some would later say that if you were to have looked at all of this stuff in Steve's room, then heard that Susan went missing, you would immediately think that Steve had something to do with it. But again, phone records proved that he was in Washington. Now, investigators would also find around 15 journals that were filled with thousands of entries about Susan and Steve's obsession with her. In one entry that Steve wrote before Susan went missing, he talked about how much Josh hated her.

A (109:55)

He wrote this, josh hates her so much, Even wishes she were dead. He even talked about it occasionally, fantasizing that she might have an accident. That worries me, too, because couples who die in murder suicide is not that rare.

B (110:11)

As investigators continued digging through the mountain of disturbing things in Steve's room, they saw that he didn't just take pictures and videos of Susan. In fact, there were a number of women that Steve would secretly record out in public. But the most disturbing thing of all was a file that was titled Neighbors. When they opened the file, detectives found all of these pictures and videos of two naked little girls, aged 8 and 10. The girls used to live directly next door to Steve Powell, and disturbingly, through his bedroom window. He would use his camera to zoom in and film them as they took baths. He organized them with titles like Taking Bath one, Taking Bath two, Open Window in the back of the House. The detectives were horrified to see 1600 images of these little girls. Immediately, they contacted the family that used to live there. And after looking at the photos, the girl's mother confirmed that it was her two young daughters. So soon after this, Steve Powell was placed under arrest for possession of child sexual abuse material and 14 counts of voyeurism. He would end up pleading not guilty to the charges and was held on a $200,000 cash bond. Steve would later speak to reporters and say that the stuff police found in his home was embarrassing and he wished he had moved it all before they found it. A true monster through and through.

A (111:53)

After going through the Powell's home, investigators described it as a house of horrors. In addition to the child sexual abuse material, there were also posters in the house that showed a woman stabbed through her vagina. Some of the porn in Steve's room was laid right out in the open. This was definitely not a home suitable for children. And after finding that Steve Powell was videoing the little girls next door, the courts decided that Charlie and Brayden did not need to live under that roof. Susan's parents, Chuck and Judy, were happy to take custody of the boys, but for the time being, they would be placed into foster care. One of the detectives at the scene would later say, a detective called out to me, and as I turned around, I saw Brayden running for me with his arms reaching out and a big smile on his face. He immediately hugged me and I picked him up. He told me that he was happy to see me again. I saw Charles near the van and he went to another detective who picked him up. Charles was interested in seeing the police lights and did not want to be put down. Neither of the boys had shoes on. I then went just inside the door where I knew the shoes were kept. I saw Mr. Powell in the garage and he glared at me, but he did not call out to Charles. Charles took no notice. Once inside, Charles helped pick out shoes for him and Brayden. Brayden was chatty and giggly. He hugged me and told me he loved me. I explained that a CPS caseworker was going to take them to a babysitter for a sleepover. Neither of the boys seemed concerned and they were never upset. In fact, they were quite happy to be going. They did not ask for their father or any other family member. Charles did ask if the babysitters were Mormons. I told him no, and he seemed pleased. As Charlie and Brayden were talking away, curious neighbors came out of their homes to watch what was going on. According to them, Josh was angry and started repeatedly kicking the tire of his van. It was clear he was losing control. Now, sadly, the investigators would later say that they wanted to arrest Josh that night as well. They had a good amount of circumstantial evidence against him. They had Susan's blood in the home that Josh had tried to clean up. Susan's cell phone that was in his possession. Her handwritten note that explained if something happened to look at Josh. And they had Charlie's odd claim that Susan had gone camping with them, but stayed where the crystals are. But sadly, they didn't think it was enough. So Josh Powell remained a free man.

B (114:16)

But luckily for the Cox family, they were awarded custody of Charlie and Braden. At the time, Chuck and Judy were retired and they immediately went to work renovating their home so it was fit for children. But something they immediately noticed was that in the almost two years since Susan's disappearance, it was clear that the boys had not been parented well. According to Chuck, they had no manners. When food was laid out, they quickly grabbed for anything they could get their hands on. It was almost like the boys had to fend for themselves while living under the Powell roof. The boys also didn't have bedtimes and they told their grandparents that they would often sleep with their dad completely naked. More than anything, Chuck and Judy were just happy to have the boys under their roof. But of course, Josh Powell would fight to get them back. He told the judge that he did not want want his children going to church. So while Chuck and Judy went to church every Sunday, Josh was given a three hour visitation with the boys. The judge also urged him to move out of his father's home as it clearly wasn't a good place for children. So Josh ended up renting a house in Graham, Washington.

A (115:34)

Around this time, he was doing everything he could to look like a good father. He got his entire family to write letters to the judge on why Charlie and Brayden should live with him instead of Chuck and Judy. He also agreed to attend counseling sessions with his sons. But his behavior during those sessions was bizarre. During their first one, Josh told Charlie and Brayden that their grandpa was in trouble because of the Mormon police and that Mormon police wanted to arrest him as well. Josh also spoke poorly about Susan's parents in front of the boys during these counseling sessions. And if Josh was saying this in front of a counselor, there's no telling what he was saying to the boys behind closed doors. In another session, Charlie was asked to draw a picture. He wanted him to draw a happy memory. Charlie drew three people. Two were standing by each other with big smiles on their faces. The other person was on the ground and it looked like they were dead. Disturbingly, there was one instance at the Cox home where Charlie had put some mud into an outlet. Chuck asked him why he was doing that and Charlie said, my daddy told me to.

C (116:38)

What do you mean?

A (116:39)

They asked. Charlie replied, daddy told me to break things.

B (116:44)

Now luckily, the more time that Charlie and Brayden spent away from their father, the more improvements they made. They behaved better, they had more manners, a good routine, and according to the boys teachers, they seemed a lot happier. The social worker in charge of their case thought that it was in the boy's best interest to stay in the custody of their grandparents. They did give Josh two to three supervised visits a week. Josh was very unhappy with this arrangement and he was going to do everything in his power to change that. Now, In January of 2012, Charlie and Braden's cousin had come over to the Cox's home and while playing, Brayden accidentally got kicked in the head. Apparently their cousin was spinning Charlie around. Brayden walked too close and was kicked. He ended up having a knot on his head and just to be safe, Chuck and Judy took him to the er. They were so relieved that he didn't have any significant injuries. But unfortunately, a week later, Brayden would be taken to the ER again after putting his foot into a pot of hot water. When Josh Powell found out about these incidents, he demanded that Charlie and Brayden be taken from Chuck and Judy. However, the social workers proved that both injuries were simply accidents.

A (118:12)

Now, shortly after this, the Powell family would again do everything in their power to drag the Cox's name through the mud. Josh's brother Mike even created a website called for the Kids. In it, he talked about how Chuck and Judy purposely burned Brayden's foot. He said that the police were spending millions of dollars trying to take down his family, that his brother was completely innocent, and that taking away Charlie and Brayden was illegal. The social workers eventually found the website and they immediately confronted Josh. It was not a good look for him when he was trying to gain back custody of his children. Josh eventually got his family to take the website down but it seemed as if the damage was already done. Now, Josh Powell had another court date scheduled for February 1, 2012, to try and get custody of his boys. But soon enough, his social workers would come across some information that would change everything. Remember how during the search of Steve Powell's home, investigators confiscated Josh's computers? Well, Josh had encrypted a lot of his stuff so they couldn't gain access. But when they finally did, they found some dark, disturbing things on Josh's devices. There was a lot of pornography, including mail on mail and rape pornography, specifically the Harry Potter characters getting raped. But the most concerning thing was the incestuous cartoon pornography. There were around 400 images of cartoon incest porn between adults and children. Now, for some reason, and I disagree with this law because it was cartoons, it technically wasn't considered child sexual abuse material, but it was disturbing nonetheless.

B (119:51)

Up until this point, it seemed as if Josh Powell truly believed that he was going to get custody of his boys. But after seeing this, the social workers were concerned. They didn't think Charlie and Brayden should be in the custody of someone who was watching cartoon child incest porn. So the judge ruled that the boys would stay with Charlie, Chuck and Judy. They also told Josh that he could still have visitations, but only if he completed a psychosexual evaluation. The judge also ordered him to take a polygraph in connection to Susan's disappearance. As you can imagine, Josh was not happy about that. He was fully losing control of everything in his life. After Susan's disappearance, he lost his home, his family fell apart. Everyone in America hated him. His father was arrested, and now he was losing custody of his children. But even more so, after years of tension between Josh and Susan's family, he felt like Judy and Chuck Cox had won. The police were also closing in on him. So just like he did with Susan, Josh decided that he was going to take that control back.

A (121:12)

On February 4, 2012, Josh Powell went to a Bank of America and withdrew $7,000. Next, he visited his storage unit. Inside were boxes and boxes of his family's things. Josh threw a bunch of stuff in the dumpster. He then mailed his sister Alina the key to the storage unit. After that, Josh went home and filled up some boxes with Charlie and Brayden's toys, clothing and books. He then drove to a Goodwill and donated all of it. But next, Josh would drive to a convenience store. Inside, he purchased two five gallon containers and then filled them both with gasoline.

B (121:51)

The following day was Sunday, February 5, 2012. Like every Sunday, Chuck And Judy got ready for church and they got the boys ready for their scheduled visitation with their dad. Every time Charlie and Brayden had to leave, the Cox's felt unsettled. They knew that Josh Powell was a dangerous man, but there was nothing they could do about it. The one thing that gave them any sort of comfort was knowing that the visitations were supervised. At some point that morning, the social worker, Elizabeth Griffin hall, arrived to pick up Charlie and Brayden. She had been working with the family for a while now, and this was just like every other visit. Or so she thought. That morning, Chuck and Judy kissed their grandsons goodbye, not knowing that it would be for the very last time. Then from there, Charlie and Brayden got into the car with Elizabeth and they started the drive to Josh's house.

A (122:54)

Over at Josh Powell's house in Graham, Washington, he had just tied up all of his loose ends. He took the money out of his accounts, he mailed his sister the key to the storage unit, and lastly, he got the two gallons of gasoline. That morning, shortly before Charlie and Brayden arrived for their visitation, Josh had emailed his little sister Alina with instructions on what to do with his finances. He also left her this voicemail.

C (123:24)

I'm. I'm going to say goodbye. I am not able to live without my son and I'm not able to go on anymore. I'm sorry to everyone I've hurt. Goodbye.

B (123:46)

It was around noon when Elizabeth pulled up to Josh's driveway. The sounds of little boys echoed in her backseat. Elizabeth would later say that throughout her experiences with Josh, he seemed to be a good dad. During their visitations, he would often play with the boys, showing them how things worked and making them nutritious meals. But she also wasn't naive to the fact that parents were often on their best behaviors during visitations. She had been working this job for a while and she knew how things worked. But today would by far be the most memorable day of her career. After getting the boys out of the car, they ran up ahead towards the home. Josh Powell quickly opened up the front door, allowing Charlie and Brayden to run inside. I have a surprise for you, he told them. However, the exciting comment did not match the disturbing look of on Josh's face. Elizabeth had been right behind the boys. But right as she stepped up to the front door, Josh looked her dead in the eyes and then slammed the door in her face. With it, the air from inside the home wafted in her direction, revealing a scent that made her heart drop. It was the smell of gasoline. Elizabeth immediately began banging on the front door, yelling for Josh to let her in. She even tried to open it herself, but Josh had locked it. Then, to her horror, she heard the sound of a child crying. Immediately, Elizabeth grabbed her phone and dialed 911.

C (125:32)

Hey. I'm on a supervised visitation for a court ordered visit and something really weird has happened. The kids went into the house and the parent, the biological parent, whose name is Josh Powell, will not let me in the door. What should I do? What's the address? It's 8119, and I think it's 89th. I don't know what the address is. Okay, that's pretty important for me to know. I'm sorry, I can't. Just a minute. Let me get in my car and see if I can. If I can find it. Nothing like this has ever happened before at these visitations, so I'm really shocked. And I could hear one of the kids crying, but he still wouldn't let me in. Okay, it is one. Oh, just a minute. I have it here. You can't find me by gps? No. Okay, it is. I still can't find it, but I think I need help right away. He's on a very short lease with cshs, and CPS has been involved. And this is the craziest thing. He looked right at me and closed the door. Are you there? Yes, ma'. Am. I'm just waiting to know where you are. Okay. And I'd like to pull out of the driveway because I smell gasoline and he won't let me in. You want to pull out of the driveway because you smell gasoline, but he won't let you. He won't let me in. He won't let you out of the driveway. He won't let me in the house. Whose house is it? Kid's in the house and he won't let me in. It's a supervised visit. I understand. Whose house is it? Josh Powell. Okay, so you don't live there, right? No, I don't. No. I'm contracted to the state to provide supervised visitation. I see. Okay. And who is there to exercise their visitation? I am. And the visit is with Josh Powell. And who supervise. Who is the husband that I supervise? So you supervise, and you're doing the visitor. You supervise yourself. I supervise myself. I'm the supervisor here. Wait a minute. If it's a supervised visit, you can't supervise yourself. If you're the visitor, I can't supervise myself. I'm the supervisor for the supervised visit. Okay, well, aren't you the One making the visit, or is there another person you're supervising? No, I'm the one that supervises. I pick up the kids. With their grandparents? Yes. And then who visits with the children? Josh Powell. Okay, so you're supposed to be there to supervise Josh Powell's visit with the children. Yes, that's correct. And how did. And he's the husband of missing Susan Powell. How did. This is a high profile case. How did he. How did he gain access to the children before you got. I was one step in back of them. Okay, so they went into the house and they locked you out? Yeah, he shut the door right in my face. All right, now it's clear. Your last name? My name is Elizabeth Griffin Hall.

A (129:07)

The 911 call was infuriating. It lasted seven minutes. And the dispatcher didn't seem to understand the severity of the situation. He even told her that he would have a deputy come by when they could.

C (129:19)

Okay, how long will it be? I don't know, ma'. Am. They have to respond to emergency life threatening situations first. The first available deputy. This could be life threatening. He went to court on Wednesday and he couldn't get his kids back. And this is really, I'm afraid for their lives. Okay. Has he threatened the lives of the children previously? I have no idea. All right, we'll have the first available deputy contact you.

B (129:45)

After smelling the gasoline, Elizabeth wasn't sure what would happen. So she quickly backed her car down the street and then she waited. But before the police could arrive, Elizabeth watched in horror as the Powell home exploded right before her eyes. It was 12:16pm and immediately the entire house was engulfed in flames. Elizabeth called 911 again.

C (130:18)

Okay. You know if anyone's in the house? Yes, there was a man and two children. I just dropped off the children and he wouldn't let me in the door. And people are saying there's not somebody here, but I was just there and there is somebody here. There's two little boys in the house. You saw him go back into the house when the flight. Right before the planes. He didn't ever leave the house. He just opened the door. The kids were. Kids were one step ahead of me. They're five and seven. They were one step ahead of me. And he slammed the door in my face. And you think he might have done this intentionally? Yeah.

A (130:52)

In addition, the loud boom caused many people in the neighborhood to emerge from their homes. And they quickly called 911 as well.

C (131:00)

Fire. There's a house on fire. Explosion. The house just blew up and it's on fire. I don't. God, I don't know. Smoke and fire. Yes, In a loud, huge boom. And there's crap flying all over the place. Dark smoke. There's other people that can see it.

A (131:21)

Around this time, Josh's sister Alina woke up to see that voicemail that Josh had left her. Immediately, she called the police.

C (131:29)

I think my brother might be in trouble or something. What's going on, your brother? I don't know. He's sending weird emails. He's saying goodbye and stuff. I mean, I know sometimes it's hard on him. The abuse is extremely difficult. Alina, I need you to calm down, okay? What else did the email say? Nothing. Justin. He sent several emails saying stuff about how to handle his property or something, how to camp for utilities. I don't know. It was just an email. Okay. The only way to do that would be if I drive over there and I'm terrified. Well, why shouldn't an officer with this? So he would know where we're going. We're not asking you to make any contact with him. Why would the officer do that? I'm not afraid of him. He'd never heard of me. I'm afraid of. I don't want to see Alia. You are not helpful when you're crying.

B (132:32)

It took about three minutes for firefighters to arrive at the Powell home. As they did, they saw that it was completely engulfed in flames, with thick black smoke billowing in the air. Because of the extreme temperatures, the firefighters couldn't go anywhere near the home. They could only work on extinguishing the flames. Finally, at around 1:30pm they were able to make their way inside. Based on the social workers testimony, they knew that three people were inside. One adult and two young children. And soon enough, they would find them. Josh Powell was located face up on the floor. There was almost nothing left of him from the waist down. Charlie and Brayden were discovered on a burned box spring. Their hands were touching. Charlie was found on his left side. Brayden was found face down. One by one, their bodies were taken out, covered in a white sheet, as neighbors and reporters stood outside in complete shock. By this point, the entire world knew of the Powell family. Susan's disappearance had been in the media for years. And now they were about to learn that Josh Powell not only likely killed Susan, but their two young boys as well.

A (133:56)

As word began to spread, Chuck and Judy Cox were still in church when they got that horrific text message that Josh had blown up the house. The friend told Chuck that he saw it on Facebook. So Originally, Chuck didn't think it was true, that it was just a rumor. But then his friends said that the Associated Press was covering it. And that's when Chuck knew that it was serious. Immediately, he and Judy started making their way to Josh's home. As they got closer, they could still see the smoke that was rising up ahead. Their greatest fears had come true. Outside of the home, all they could do was hold each other and cry. But the details that were later revealed were worse than they could have ever imagined.

B (134:39)

As it turns out, before the boys had arrived that morning, Josh Powell had walked through his home dousing it in gasoline. After slamming the door in the social worker's face, he then brought Charlie and Brayden into a back room. With him was a hatchet. Horrifically, before igniting the house in flames, Josh had attempted to murder the boys by hitting them with the hatchet in the back of their heads. Both Charlie and Brayden had parts of their skulls missing. After this, he placed the boys on the bed and poured gasoline on them. From there, it's believed that Josh sat on one of the of the 5 gallon gas cans and lit a match. Within seconds, the house was completely engulfed. But Charlie and Braden's autopsies would later prove that they were alive when the house went up in flames. The hatchet wounds didn't kill them, the fire did.

A (135:47)

After the investigations, authorities closed off the burned home with a metal flame fence. But within hours, people in the community came to put up purple ribbons and streamers. In Utah, a vigil was held at an elementary school where more than 50 people gathered and lit a candle for Charlie and Brayden. Life for the two young boys had not been easy after their mom disappeared. But after nearly two years, Chuck and Judy had been so excited to have them back in their lives, to be able to give the children a sense of normalcy after so much chaos and loss. But in the back of their minds, they always feared that this would happen. That in Josh's final act of control, he would kill the kids just like he killed their daughter. And in the end, that's exactly what he did. Susan's family and friends were completely devastated. But the one thing that brought them comfort in this time was knowing that Susan, Charlie and Brayden had been reunited for the boy's funeral. Their family decided to hold a private, private ceremony for close friends and family and then a public one for all of the people who had supported them over the years. For the public ceremony, over 2,000 people showed up to pay their respects. After the service, the boys were buried. Their headstone had a picture of Charlie Braden and their mom Susan. It read united in heaven. Under Susan's picture, it Also read, missing. December 6, 2009.

B (137:10)

Believe it or not, Josh Powell's family actually tried to have the boys buried next to their father. But luckily they were quickly shut down. And as if the Powell family couldn't get any worse, they even defended Josh in the media after he murdered Charlie and Brayden. His sister Alina would later say of the murder, suicide, quote, I think this was the act of someone who had been so damaged by the lack of due process, so harassed and abused and lied about, end quote. But for everyone else, Josh's actions just confirmed what they knew all along, that he was a cold blooded killer.

A (137:52)

After the deaths of Josh, Charlie and Brayden, investigators were hoping that maybe Josh's father, Steve would reveal more about Susan's disappearance. From the beginning, they didn't think he was responsible, but they did think he knew where her body was located. Now, he was still in jail at the time, but they actually put him in a room and showed him pictures of Josh, Charlie and Brayden's bodies. They were hoping that after seeing the depravity of his son's actions, he would tell them where Susan was located. But he wouldn't budge. Now, later that year, Steve was set to go on trial, and investigators even tried offering him a plea deal. If he told them where Susan was, they would drop some of his charges. But again, he refused. Later that year, in May of 2012, Steve Powell finally went on trial for his voyeurism charges. The charges for taking videos of those two young girls would come later. But for this trial, after only six hours of deliberation, the jury found him guilty on all 14 counts. But surprisingly, he was only sentenced to 30 months in prison and 36 months of probation. He was also ordered to register as a sex offender. Keep in mind, that's less than three years in prison for those incredibly disturbing crimes.

B (139:08)

Now, even though this case came to a tragic end, investigators were still trying to get answers. They even looked into Josh's other family members, like his brother Mike. Strangely enough, in the days before Susan's disappearance, Mike's phone had zero activity. And usually Mike used his phone several times a day. But then, on the day of Susan's disappearance, at the same time that Josh was leaving the campsite he was at, Mike used his phone for the first time in days to check his voicemail. Then after checking that voicemail, there was no activity for several more days. Then a few Weeks after Susan's disappearance, Mike sold his car. It was a 1997 Ford Taurus and it was in pretty good condition. But weirdly enough, he sold it for a mere $100. When investigators brought up this sold car, Mike appeared extremely nervous and evasive. When they told Mike that they tracked the car down, investigators said he looked terrified. Now, they ended up bringing out cadaver dogs to search the car and immediately they hit on the trunk. However, they didn't ever find anything. For a while, the police believed that Mike may have helped his brother in getting rid of Susan's body. They could never prove it. Interestingly, before his death, Josh made it to where Mike was the main beneficiary of he and Susan's $2.5 million life insur policy. Then, nine days after Josh killed himself and the boys, Mike went to claim it. But because Susan wasn't legally declared dead, he ran into some problems. The Cox family would take him to court regarding the payout. But shockingly, on February 11, 2013, Mike Powell died by suicide. He jumped off a seven story parking garage in Minneapolis. There are still many people who believe that Mike was Josh Powell's accomplice. There are speculations that maybe Josh offered to pay him some of Susan's life insurance if he helped get rid of her body. But with he and Josh's suicide, I guess we'll never know.

A (141:35)

In March 2014, Steve Powell was released from prison after he served out his sentence for those voyeurism charges. But almost immediately, he was back on trial in Washington for the child pornography charges. Ultimately, in 2015, the jury found him guilty. He was sentenced to five years in prison. But he would not serve out that full sentence because In July of 2018, Steve passed away from a heart condition. Within eight years, five members of this family were gone. First Susan, then Josh, Charlie and Brayden, then Mike Powell, and Finally Steve. In 2020, Chuck and Judy Cox sued the Washington State Department of Social and Health Services in a wrongful death case, citing that not enough was done to keep the boys safe from their father. And on July 31, they won. A jury awarded them $98 million. But in the end, no amount of money could take their pain away.

B (142:31)

Over the years, the searches for Susan Powell's body have slowed down. But every once in a while, there will be a tip or a new lead. Investigators will search different areas, hoping that this time they will find her. The most recent search we could find was in 2022, where they searched for her in the west desert mines. But like all the others, it came up empty. To this day, the location of Susan's remains are unknown. And when Josh Powell died, he took that information to the grave. However, Susan's family remains hopeful that one day she will be found, that her body can be brought home, that they'll get the closure they deserve, and that Susan Powell can finally rest in peace alongside her baby boys.

A (143:23)

One of the biggest sources that we used for this two part episode was was the Cold Podcast, season one. If you want to listen to the deepest dive available on the Susan Powell case, Courtney and I both highly recommend listening to that podcast. There's still so much information that we weren't able to squeeze into these two parts. We also used the book if I Can't have youe, written by Greg Olson and Rebecca Morris, about the case. For today's episode, we will once again be making a donation to the Susan Cox Powell Foundation. Their organization provides media consulting to keep missing persons cases in the public eye. They support domestic violence prevention. They help connect families to local organizations for media appearances and other events if a loved one goes missing, and so much more. And all of this is done in memory of Susan Powell, Charlie and Brayden. Hey everybody, thank you for listening to part two of this two part episode here on Murder in America. This story is just so complex and it's so just disturbing. And once again, you do see these failures from authorities or people in positions of power time after time with these stories that we tell on the show. You can see this pattern that authorities or CPs or whoever, they failed to recognize how serious some of these issues are and they allow these things to happen, which to me is incredibly disturbing. And there needs to be some sort of a change in the system to prevent stuff like this from continuing to happen. If you love the show and you want to help support the work that we do here on Murder in America, please consider joining us over on Patreon. On Patreon, you can get early ad free access to every episode of the show. So if you don't like the ads, you can listen to the ad free version on Patreon. And also if you've listened to every episode of our show and you've never signed up for Patreon, if you sign up, you can immediately get access to an entire library of bonus episodes of Murder in America that will never be posted on the main feed. These are bonus episodes of the show featuring Courtney and I. They're just as long as the episodes on the main feed. They feature the same style of editing and music and all the sound design. So yeah, if you love the show and you want more more you can help support the show and get access to those episodes over on Patreon. Also, don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Murder in America to see photos from every single case that we cover. And please don't forget to leave us a five star review wherever you listen to this show. Those reviews are awesome. We love hearing from you guys and we appreciate every single one of you who've given us a five star review. Anyways, y', all, thank you for listening to this two part series. Courtney and I will be back next week with another episode of the the Show. Thank you all again. Have a great weekend and yeah, I'll catch y' all on the next one. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budget budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there, and hoping it all works out? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help you find options within your budget. Try it today@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states and now let's get back to our show.