The DeBarge Effect (with Kevin Avery) RE-RELEASE

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: My Momma Told Me – "The DeBarge Effect" (with Kevin Avery) RE-RELEASE

Podcast: My Momma Told Me
Host(s): Langston Kerman, David Gborie
Guest: Kevin Avery
Release Date: April 9, 2026
Network: Big Money Players Network & iHeartPodcasts

---

Episode Overview

In this engaging and often hilarious episode, Langston Kerman and David Gborie are joined by comedian and writer Kevin Avery for a deep-dive into the playful yet contentious Black conspiracy theory: "Are light-skinned people naturally better at R&B?" The trio unpacks issues of colorism, Black musical history, representation, and personal anecdotes from inside and outside the industry, all filtered through their sharp comedic sensibilities. What starts as a joke about R&B group dynamics evolves into a thoughtful discussion on how colorism shapes Black identity and pop culture.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Setup of the Conspiracy Theory

• The hosts banter about R&B tropes and old TV trivia, leading into the main topic: David's proposal that "light-skinned people are good at R&B."
• Kevin reveals he initially entertained this stereotype, but soon found it questionable after scrutiny.
• The conversation is playful, with jokes about Flex Alexander, Kyla Pratt, and the "Black Illuminati" (03:24), establishing the episode’s playful, irreverent tone.

2. Colorism in R&B and Group Dynamics

• David and Kevin recall a perception of light-skinned singers as "sexier" or more likely to be frontmen, versus dark-skinned singers (09:08), drawing parallels to their own experiences growing up.
• Kevin shares his time in a 90s R&B group named "Four Now" that ironically had six members—split equally between light and dark-skinned men. The lead singers tended to be the dark-skinned members.
• They dissect the roles within popular groups like New Edition and Boyz II Men, emphasizing how lead spotlights and backup roles often defy color-based stereotypes.

3. Personal Anecdotes & The Power of Representation

• Kevin recounts moments of being assumed to have singing talent due to his skin color, particularly by white women (12:15).
• The guys reflect on the lack of positive, varied representation for dark-skinned men on TV and in music. David describes how this affected his childhood self-image and understanding of desirability (43:21).
• Langston uses humor to point out the arbitrariness of many of these distinctions, tasking: "It's only like three of us [light-skinned R&B singers], and one of them is Al B. Sure. ... John B. was a white man. He scammed y’all." (49:46)

4. Musical History: What Do the Data & Trends Actually Show?

• Kevin references research showing a colorism bias in representation, both in music and in medical/educational imagery; e.g., "1.1% of anatomical diagrams represented dark skin tones, 83.5% represented light skin tones" (40:54).
• The discussion turns to classic Motown and soul groups. Most, like The Temptations and The Four Tops, were composed of mostly dark-skinned men—a trend that challenges the conspiracy theory.

5. The Role of Industry Gatekeepers & Changing Visibility

• The trio discusses how historic music industry practices (e.g., the Cotton Club, A&Rs, MTV, and crossover boy bands) shaped which artists became visible and marketable.
• Comment on the comparison to the “white rapper” phenomenon, noting that while white rappers are rare, those who make it (e.g., Eminem) are elevated above their peers disproportionately (54:27).

6. Complexity, Humor, and Takeaways

• Rather than a simple answer, the hosts and guest explore the nuanced, shifting ways color, talent, sex appeal, and visibility interact in Black music and pop culture, always looping back to personal experience and humor.
• The episode wraps with reflections on the value of representation and the importance of breaking free from preordained boxes—plus a running joke about launching an R&B group of "ugly light-skinned dudes" to shatter the narrative (56:30).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On TV Representation:
  "Seeing a super dark dude get a girl on TV is like seeing an Asian dude get a girl on TV. It doesn't happen very often."
  — David Gborie (43:21)

• On Industry Bias:
  "The whole reason I’m in a singing group is because when I was a kid, my mom saw New Edition on TV and was like, look at these little kids singing. And I was like, oh, so little kids can do this shit?"
  — Kevin Avery (48:53)

• On Colorism and Stereotypes:
  "There's a weird association—even as a light-skinned person—of people being like, 'light-skinned R&B singing motherfucker.' And it’s like, dawg, it’s only like three of us!”
  — Langston Kerman (49:46)

• Self-Awareness & Regret:
  "I try not to regret the trajectory, even though I overthink it a lot. ... I’m glad I got to live a dream for a minute, and now I’m on to ... living other dreams."
  — Kevin Avery (62:11)

• Running Gag:
  — Jokes about Kevin’s boy band group, "Four Now" (with six members), various song titles like "It’s a Black Thing" and "Mushing In" (23:32, 37:36), and the proposed group of "four ugly-ass light-skinned dudes" (56:30).

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [09:08] – Conspiracy revealed: “Light-skinned people are good at R&B”
• [13:16] – Kevin’s experience in a 90s R&B group and group composition
• [23:00] – Amusing song titles: “The Experiment”, “It’s a Black Thing”
• [25:03] – Kevin’s shift in belief after researching colorism in R&B
• [31:46] – Discussion of “light-skinned era” in Motown, e.g., Smokey Robinson
• [40:54] – Research stat: bias in medical/educational imagery toward light skin
• [43:21] – David on the impact of poor representation on confidence and desirability
• [48:53] – The importance of seeing one's self in media, especially as a kid
• [54:26] – Comparing colorism in R&B to the "white rapper" phenomenon
• [56:46] – Consensus: “What we need is an R&B group of ugly-ass light-skinned dudes”
• [62:11] – Reflections on growth, regret, and moving on from old dreams

---

Tone & Language

• The episode is lively, self-aware, and loaded with jokes, but doesn’t shy away from discussing serious implications of colorism and representation. The guests and hosts often self-deprecate and playfully challenge one another’s POVs, maintaining camaraderie throughout.

Sample Exchange: "Let us not linger any longer. The conspiracy theory is: 'My momma told me light-skinned people are good at R&B.'"
– Langston Kerman (09:08)
"I just felt like my whole life there’s always been this light-skinned predisposition to sexy stuff."
– David Gborie (11:04)_

---

Conclusion

Resolution:
After much laughter and reflection, the group acknowledges that while colorism undeniably shapes visibility and expectations in Black music, the actual statistics tilt toward dark-skinned R&B excellence. Ultimately, the episode is a reminder of the complex intersections of identity, commerce, and culture—delivered with the wit and rapport that define My Momma Told Me.

---

Guest/Host Plugs:

• Kevin Avery: @KevanAveryComedy on Instagram; Fox’s The Great North (Sundays at 8:30pm)
• David Gborie: @coolguyjokes87 on Instagram; live stand-up dates (e.g., DC Improv July 21–23)
• Langston Kerman: @langstonkerman on all platforms

---

Transcript

[Langston Kerman]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Guaranteed Human. You're listening to a podcast, so you're doing something else too. Like maybe scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving places you like without thinking you'll get them, because that's what house hunting has become. But Redfin isn't built for endless browsing, it's built to help you find and own a home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, which means when you find a place you love, you've got a real shot at getting it. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get [e-mail] own the dream do you

[Langston Kerman]

want to find a stress free way to buy your next car? Start at CarMax and shop your way. If you want to browse with confidence,

[Kevin Avery]

get pre qualified online with no impact

[Langston Kerman]

on your credit score and shop cars within your budget. From luxury cars to family rides, CarMax has options for almost every price range, including more than 25,000 cars priced under $25,000. So hey, want to get started? Just head to CarMax.com for details and get pre qualified today. Want to Drive CarMax

[David Bord]

introducing Home Care Plus, a new subscription service from Lowes that helps make life easier by giving members a hand with home maintenance. Let Lowe's tackle the tasks you keep meaning to do, like electric dryer, vent cleaning, replacing hard to reach, light bul and more. Subscribe to Home Care plus for just 99 a year and consider your to do list done. Members get more at Lowe's. Available on select zip codes only. Cancel anytime non refundable fee Product purchase required terms and service restrictions apply. Details@lowe's.com Terms subject to change this week

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

on a special episode of WebMD's Health Discovered podcast, we're taking a closer look at a common form of lung cancer that accounts for 85% of all cases.

[Langston Kerman]

When I first heard the words you have lung cancer, I was in shock.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

It's a diagnosis that changes everything. So what does it really mean to advocate for yourself when you're living with non small cell lung cancer? Listen to Health discovered on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kevin Avery]

I would go as far as to say more than one of them had a cane at any given time because at one point it was just a thing to be a dude in an R and B group and have a cane. I bought one for my brother for Christmas one year. I was like it was a rite of passage for just a young black dude at the time. Hey brother, you know you need A cane and he might still have it. I just saw him yesterday. I should have asked.

[Langston Kerman]

I pray to God you kneeled when you handed it off to him. I want that more than anything.

[David Bord]

The government growing babies, microchips in your Amy's, all koala bears are racist. The ozone layer owes me money. Martians invented turkey stuffing. Y' all can't tell me nothing. Welcome to another phenomenal episode of My

[Langston Kerman]

Mama Told Me, the podcast where we dive deep, deep into the pockets of black conspiracy theories and we finally work

[David Bord]

to prove that Kyla Pratt did in fact sacrifice her television father Flex Alexander career to the black Illuminati in exchange for eternal youth.

[Langston Kerman]

It sounds right to me. I'll be honest, that sounds exactly right. Kyla Pratt has not aged a day since 1991.

[David Bord]

She looks amazing.

[Langston Kerman]

She looks fantastic. And something had to have happened. You can't be the same girl from Love and Basketball Forever.

[David Bord]

Where's Flex? He was on a rocket ship to the moon. I haven't seen him since.

[Langston Kerman]

You know, he was in. If I'm remembering correctly, he was in Snakes on a Plane, if I'm not mistaken. Who was showed up briefly in that?

[David Bord]

I was in Snakes on a Plane briefly. That's no barometer for success.

[Langston Kerman]

This easily could have been a Flex Alexander hologram. That or Washington. Which one was he? Was he Washington or Alexander?

[David Bord]

Flex Alexander, I believe he was Flex Washington on the show. One on one.

[Langston Kerman]

Why, why do that? Why not pick a full different name if you're going to be in a multicam on upn? Why, why, why commit so hard?

[David Bord]

I think that you want the name. Flex is what's going to travel. Alexander Washington, it's all very interchangeable. But Flex is what they want us to remember.

[Langston Kerman]

He said Alexander is my slave name, but Flex, that's.

[David Bord]

Washington is my lesser slave name.

[Langston Kerman]

Washington is my chosen slave name. If I have to choose a slave name, I want the best slave owner, I. E. Washington.

[David Bord]

No, they had dental, the Washingtons. It was a good family.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, it was a solid family. Solid slave owner. Shout out to the slave owner in Washington if you're still out there. Hell yeah. You got it, baby. You're the best.

[David Bord]

What are we one minute in? All right.

[Langston Kerman]

I'm David Bord and I'm your co host, Langston Carmen. We're so happy to be here with you. We're talking shit about apparently Flex Alexander and Kyla Pratt and George Washington a little bit, but less so him for some reason. But our guest today, I would dare to say that he hasn't owned any slaves, nor would he. Well, I think he'd go so far. Ah, okay.

[David Bord]

Maybe.

[Langston Kerman]

Maybe he would. He's not certain. He's wavering on the subject, but he's such a funny comedian. Hysterical. You've seen him in so many things. Specifically, he is a writer. Producer for the Great north on Fox. So fucking funny. Please give it up for our guest, Mr. Kevin Avery.

[Kevin Avery]

What's up, gentlemen? How are you?

[Langston Kerman]

We're excited you're here.

[Kevin Avery]

I'm going to go no on. On the slave owning.

[Langston Kerman]

Damn.

[Kevin Avery]

I'm going to make that official. Yeah.

[Langston Kerman]

Okay.

[Kevin Avery]

Just feels.

[David Bord]

Put it on wax.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah. I'm going to be trying to be on the. On the right side of things, you know, I feel like. Feel like slave owning is a dangerous, dangerous precedent to start to put out there now. Yeah.

[Langston Kerman]

It would be a weird way to start the episode and expect people to eventually be on your side and then

[Kevin Avery]

just ride with me. Go back to the part where he said he'd own slaves.

[Langston Kerman]

Okay, hear me out. Yeah, I don't own slaves, but.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. None. Okay, so I'm good.

[Langston Kerman]

So notice slave owning, and that's fine. To each his own, as what I always say. But you came to us this week with a conspiracy theory, and I say you. But the truth is, this is a bit of a unique episode because you did not, in fact, come to us with this conspiracy theory. You came to us with an open heart.

[Kevin Avery]

You say yes.

[Langston Kerman]

You said, if you fellas have something you want to discuss, I am more than open to taking that on. I'm not afraid of what possibly could come down the pipeline. And then Bori immediately raised his hand. He could not have raised his hand faster. Kevin. I want you to know how quickly this happened. Unbelievably fast. He raised his hand with a conspiracy theory that I would argue is maybe the most unfounded thing that we are going to take on in this. In this conversation ever.

[David Bord]

That's crazy.

[Kevin Avery]

Wow. Okay, already. Starting with the. Look, I'm gonna say this on the. And you haven't said it yet. This was a theory that I definitely was riding with for a minute.

[David Bord]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Kevin Avery]

For a minute. And then I really. Then I really thought about it.

[David Bord]

But, I mean, I just want to note that we're five minutes in. Langston has already positioned me in the position of the buffoon of the. Of the wild card. Wow. I just want that note.

[Langston Kerman]

My God. Okay, so now. Now there's a hierarchy being formed. I'm.

[Kevin Avery]

Have I walked into some unsettled shit

[David Bord]

that I. Oh, for me personally, this goes back to before grade school. This is a lifelong.

[Kevin Avery]

I can't wait. I mean, I will say this too about the theory you chose. It hit me right here. Right here.

[Langston Kerman]

Just pointing to his heart. Not.

[David Bord]

I know that you have skin in the game personally. That's why I chose it for you.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Langston Kerman]

Okay.

[Kevin Avery]

I appreciate that.

[Langston Kerman]

Let us not linger any longer. Let us not leave our audience with bated breath. The conspiracy theory that was presented was my mama told me life scan people

[Kevin Avery]

are good at R and B.

[Langston Kerman]

Let's unpack it, fellas. David, this is yours. This is your baby. I'd love for you to kick us off.

[David Bord]

I just have felt throughout and I don't. Listen, first of all, I personally do not think that light skinned people are better than dark skinned people at R and B. I think that it's even.

[Langston Kerman]

Whoa.

[Kevin Avery]

Oh, wait.

[David Bord]

I think there's been a lot of. I think there's been a lot of dark skinned erasure in the R and B game in general. Just like I think, quite honest, there's been a lot of fat erasure in the R and B game as well as.

[Kevin Avery]

Well, I'd agree.

[David Bord]

Cause we all remember Woody from Drew Hill. What happened? Or Jazz. What happened.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, Jazz was the heavier one.

[David Bord]

Last king, last of the thick kings. As far as could sing.

[Kevin Avery]

Ruben stuttered.

[David Bord]

Ruben stuttered. But that was not. Ruben Studdard wasn't making like panty dropping.

[Langston Kerman]

He tried. Well, he had a small window.

[Kevin Avery]

He had a moment. He had a moment. He did.

[David Bord]

Yeah. It was. I'm sorry for 2004. That was not.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, I mean, here's what I'll say is that Ruben really. He tried a little bit of everything. That is the formula of R B. He apologized, he made love, and he walked in the rain. And none of it seemed to satisfy the missing piece, which was us looking at Ruben Studdard and being like, yeah, I'll buy that album. I'll take what you're giving me, Big dog.

[David Bord]

You beat Clay Aiken. Big deal.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah.

[David Bord]

I don't even know if he did. Did he win?

[Kevin Avery]

I don't know.

[Langston Kerman]

Yes, Reuben Studdard did win.

[Kevin Avery]

He did win. Yeah.

[Langston Kerman]

Clay Akin got second place and now is running for governor, I believe.

[Kevin Avery]

I don't know what office he's run for. I know he's been a politician for some time now.

[David Bord]

Okay.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah.

[David Bord]

But back to this. Back to what really matters. The hard hitting stuff. I've just felt like my whole life there's always been this like, light skinned, predisposition to sexy stuff. And then dark skinned, weak eyed. Like, I didn't want to play offensive line. Part of that might have been a weight thing. Yeah. But like, all the DBs, light skinned, DA rim alo. I remember him specifically. Basically white.

[Langston Kerman]

And I'll say this. No one's ever asked me to play offensive line, and I have to assume that's because of the color of my skin.

[David Bord]

It's never even crossed their mind. Like, did you play power forward ever? No, of course not.

[Langston Kerman]

No. Was it because I was smaller than everybody else and had to play point guard? I don't think so. I think it's probably because I'm light skinned. That makes more sense.

[David Bord]

Has anybody ever come up to you and been like, you seem like you could sing?

[Langston Kerman]

They haven't. But also, I had my voice the whole time.

[David Bord]

Doubly for me. That's never happened to me.

[Langston Kerman]

Kevin, please jump in here.

[Kevin Avery]

I have had. I've had a weird thing where a couple times white women have been like, I want to hear you sing. I bet you could sing. And I'm like, who? I know I didn't say I could sing, right? I don't. I didn't. I didn't really put that out there. I mean, not. Not back when this was happening a lot. But yeah, that's definitely. You know, and I. I'll say this. I did play linebacker when I played football in junior high.

[David Bord]

That's a multipurpose position, though. That's any. Anybody can be a linebacker.

[Kevin Avery]

Okay. All right, fair enough. And also, I was the. Yeah, I was the only black kid in the. In the school at the time, aside from my brother. So, I mean, they went with the darkest one for. So I guess I'm proving your point a little bit. I'm saying because I tried out for wide receiver, and I did not get that.

[David Bord]

No, they were like, we need him at a tough guy position.

[Kevin Avery]

You also.

[David Bord]

I know this about you. You were in an R and B group.

[Kevin Avery]

I was.

[Langston Kerman]

Oh, my gosh. Hold on. Wait a minute.

[David Bord]

Well, that's how they get you.

[Langston Kerman]

That's how they get you. This is, if nothing else, helping David towards this point. So please tell us more about this R and B group you were a part of.

[Kevin Avery]

Look, I didn't say we were good, but we.

[David Bord]

That doesn't matter.

[Kevin Avery]

That doesn't matter. We were all right. And I'm gonna say we were called. We were called four. Now with the four. With the number four. And now. And even though there were six of us, it was a gross error.

[David Bord]

That's so bad.

[Kevin Avery]

It was an accident. We were mistitled, mislabeled before a show and that just was the name we stuck with. Yeah, we were, but they were like. I think there were out of the gate, three dark skin cats and three light skinned cats in the group. So when split down, split down center.

[David Bord]

Yeah, but now here's my question. When you were performing, I assume your group dances and things of that nature, where were the lights standing in position in comparison to the darks?

[Kevin Avery]

I mean, it depended. You know, it's a group, you mix it up and stuff. I can tell you this, the first performance we covered can youn Stand the Rain?

[Langston Kerman]

Great song.

[Kevin Avery]

I was in the middle.

[Langston Kerman]

Not a light skinned man made that song, by the way.

[Kevin Avery]

Light skinned man.

[David Bord]

He was in the middle. By the way.

[Kevin Avery]

I was in the middle. Two dark skinned men wrote that song.

[Langston Kerman]

That's what I'm saying.

[David Bord]

Wrote a lot of things.

[Langston Kerman]

That's a song that's almost exclusively been performed by dark skinned people. But go ahead, finish your thing.

[David Bord]

Performed, written, written doesn't count. Who sang? Who wrote freaking you? Nobody knows.

[Kevin Avery]

I'll say this. On that song, the leads. And this is. This is why I'm going against your theory. Now. The leads were all the dark skinned dudes in the.

[David Bord]

Who's that? Tres Vent.

[Kevin Avery]

Well, in New Edition, it's Tres Vent. Ricky Bell and Johnny Gill in our group. Yeah, it was. All three of the dark skinned dudes sang the leads on the part.

[David Bord]

Okay.

[Kevin Avery]

And the rest of us sang back up. I told everybody, hey y', all, let's go get wet. And I did that. I did that in the middle of the song. And that was. And that was it. And then did a little bit some choreography and sang the backup.

[Langston Kerman]

Wait, so you stood in the middle and sang backup? How that's. This is confusing.

[Kevin Avery]

Well, because remember, there are six of us, so it's all. The whole regular game plan just goes out the window. So I can't remember exactly where everyone else was lined up, but I think there was a dark skinned dude on my left.

[David Bord]

You were flanked by dark skins.

[Kevin Avery]

I was flanked by dark skin.

[David Bord]

Almost like some type of a security detail.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, yeah. But they were trying to protect me at all. Protect the light skin. We gotta keep the money safe, baby. Right. But then we like. It became this very interchangeable thing where we broke up. And then we came together and there were only three of us for a minute and then there were four of us. And you know, so the ratio of light Skin to dark skin. It kept changing.

[David Bord]

Okay, what would you say the ratio was at your most successful?

[Langston Kerman]

Oh. Woo. Spicy question. He's coming in hot. And I want you to be careful when you answer this because.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, that's such a loaded.

[Langston Kerman]

I mean the gun couldn't be closer to down your throat.

[Kevin Avery]

What the hell man?

[David Bord]

Look, I'm asking the real questions here.

[Kevin Avery]

We were the hardest interview I've ever had to do. For now, 20 some odd years later,

[Langston Kerman]

address the racial disparities from your R and B group of 20 years ago.

[Kevin Avery]

I would say, I would say half. Ooh. Oh shit. You know. No, still half and half. Still half and half. Because there were eventually. There eventually were four of us and by then we changed the name, but it was still two dark skinned dudes and two light skinned dudes.

[David Bord]

And how dark are we talking? On like a scale of Langston to myself.

[Kevin Avery]

I mean it was literally the dark skinned guy like Ron. The other light skinned cat was about Langston's complexion. And then my man Corey. See, there you go.

[David Bord]

You can't do that.

[Langston Kerman]

I just, I just like to hear it. I like to hear that there's somebody else out there doing it, baby.

[Kevin Avery]

Someone else making it happen.

[Langston Kerman]

Come on, light skin, keep selling the brand.

[Kevin Avery]

But then, and then my man Corey. Yeah, David, he was about, he was about your complexion. Corey. And Patrick. Cory. Patrick was a little younger or younger, a little lighter than you.

[David Bord]

Okay. People do conflate younger and lighter a lot.

[Kevin Avery]

Sure.

[Langston Kerman]

I mean, you know, my brother is hurt today.

[David Bord]

Kevin Kyla Pratt.

[Langston Kerman]

So tell me a little bit more. You start this R and B group. Is that the goal? Are you guys gonna be like R and B superstars or was this just like a fun.

[Kevin Avery]

We were a dance crew to start.

[David Bord]

Whoa.

[Kevin Avery]

And I'm trying to remember the ratio again. That was split down the middle. There were four of us in a dance crew and then some of us in like sort of the outside crew that joined, we started singing together. But even in the dance crew, two light skinned, two dark skinned cats and so.

[Langston Kerman]

And I would argue that that dance crew with black, that's Korean erasure if you ask me. Those.

[David Bord]

No, those are Korean jobs. They just got here. Don't do that, don't do that. Wait, don't do that, don't do that.

[Langston Kerman]

You're still in good fight. Korean jobs.

[David Bord]

They got they. For the dance. They just got it. There's a bunch now, but I'm not. There wasn't a bunch in like 88 of Korean dance crews, right?

[Langston Kerman]

No,

[Kevin Avery]

I Would say you're looking at, I mean, I don't know, the history of the Korean dance crew. Y'. All about to trap me up. Yeah.

[David Bord]

No.

[Kevin Avery]

About to trap me up on some shit.

[David Bord]

No. Every week I finish this. Being really worried about the things I've said.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, not me.

[Langston Kerman]

I rest fine.

[Kevin Avery]

Langston just goes straight to sleep comfortably. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, we were like this. We were like this little dance crew. And then we just started hanging out and singing together. And we were like, we should really take this seriously. And so we started performing together a little bit. And then we knew a guy who had some recording equipment, and I wrote music, so I started writing some stuff. We started recording. There was another guy who kind of would produce some of the other stuff that we sang. And, yeah, we just started doing it. And our goal was to kind of blow up and do the whole thing, but it just sort of fell apart. We were all from different parts of the country. We met in the South.

[David Bord]

Okay.

[Kevin Avery]

That's a common thing. Yeah. And so it just kind of flew apart. And also, it was at a time when that was kind of. It looked like that was about to go away, that whole thing. New Edition had come in and gone, and even Belle B. Devoe was like, hi. Bye. You know, like in early 90s. Yeah. But they made such a huge splash. But then they bounced. And then it was a lot of other groups that did their thing for a while, but it just felt like what we were trying to do, what we were trying to go for, it wasn't going to, you know, go the way we want it to.

[David Bord]

Would you have likened yourself to like. Like an O town or H town? H Town, excuse me.

[Langston Kerman]

Likened yourself to maybe the worst boy band in all the boy bands? Would you say you were. You were just fucking awful?

[David Bord]

No, that was. That was my fault. That was my fault.

[Kevin Avery]

It was. That was. It took me. I had to reload who I.

[David Bord]

That was bad. That was bad. That was really bad.

[Kevin Avery]

I would say we were. And I don't mean to, but we were very New Edition esque when there were the sixth of us. And then. Because then, like, when the group was reduced, we had a Much more Belbiv DeVoe ish sort of angle. I mean, there were genuine hip hop heads in the group. So I feel like not no shade against Bell Bid devoe, but like, the hip hop we were doing was. We were trying to. Probably to our detriment. We were probably trying to be too.

[Langston Kerman]

Y' all were trying to rap. Rap.

[Kevin Avery]

We were trying to experiment with shit. And it sounded. It didn't. It didn't work.

[David Bord]

So you were. So you were. You were past New Jack Swing.

[Kevin Avery]

You were like, yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, but we played around with some of that. I mean, we didn't know what we were doing, man. I have some of the demo tapes that we did, and when I listened to that, I'm just like, who the hell let us. We had no friends. No one said, hey, hey, y', all, come here, come here, Come here for a second.

[Langston Kerman]

Let me gather all six of you brothers around. Yeah, you're making a mistake here, fellas.

[David Bord]

Yeah, you know, some of our.

[Kevin Avery]

Some of it was good, but a lot of it was like, what the hell were we thinking?

[David Bord]

Can you give. Can you drop a couple song titles just so we.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, we had something called. We were a group that took ourselves and everything. The moment too seriously. One song we did was called the Experiment. And it was literally just us trying. It was that thing I was talking about. We're going to have like a sort of like a house or a club section, and then we're going to have like a straight hip hop section. And then we're going to. No, it doesn't. Music doesn't work that. Music doesn't do that. It just doesn't do that. Fellas. We had another song called It's a Black Thing. Ooh, that was that song.

[David Bord]

Open it up.

[Kevin Avery]

We had a song called.

[David Bord]

Wait, no. What was the black thing?

[Kevin Avery]

It was literally. It was just. What? It's a black thing. It was. That was the phrase of the moment, y'.

[David Bord]

All.

[Langston Kerman]

Listen, David, if you gotta ask, you'll never know, buddy. It's a black thing.

[Kevin Avery]

I'm trying to remember my. The first line of my. Cause that was just. That was. That was a. That was hip hop, but with like a. See, this is what I'm talking about. And it had kind of like a. An up tempo, almost house beat. But we were rapping over it. And then it had a. We were singing the hook.

[David Bord]

Damn, there's a lot of qualifiers here.

[Kevin Avery]

There was a whole thing, but I think. I'm trying to remember my. I think that it was like, bo knows this. Bo knows that, but Bo don't know a damn thing about the lyrics that a brother bring. I can't remember the rest of the goddamn song.

[David Bord]

Cause inside out is wiggity wiggity. Why?

[Kevin Avery]

How'd you know?

[David Bord]

You bought.

[Kevin Avery]

He bought our album.

[Langston Kerman]

You got that demo, baby?

[David Bord]

I was. I can't.

[Kevin Avery]

Damn. I can't. I Wish I could remember the rest of it. It was, it was thoroughly ridiculous.

[Langston Kerman]

Let me. Before we go to break, I have to ask because you started this, this episode off by saying that you did at one point believe in the conspiracy theory that, that Bori is laying down. And I have to know how that came to be, what you believed and what has changed since.

[Kevin Avery]

Because I did look into it and you know, and I saw a couple of articles about like, hey, why are. About colorism in music and specifically why light skinned performers do better. And the list was like Beyonce, Mariah Carey, you know, I was thinking of Chris Brown at one point, you know, he popped up.

[David Bord]

Whitney in the right lighting.

[Kevin Avery]

Whitney, yes. Just the right light.

[David Bord]

Some of those. They blew her up. Some of those videos.

[Kevin Avery]

And then, and then the woman. I'm thinking I'm forgetting Alicia Keys. But then I don't. Then I started thinking of all the other artists

[Langston Kerman]

that.

[Kevin Avery]

I mean, New Edition is mostly dark skin.

[Langston Kerman]

It is.

[Kevin Avery]

And the light skinned brothers are in the background. You know, like I was a Ronny Devoe, I was a Michael Bivens, you know what I mean? Like kind of hanging out, do the harmony. Just wanted to play ball, you know. But like Neo Akon, I think there are so many more dark sides.

[David Bord]

Those are some kings you're spitting now.

[Kevin Avery]

Boys to Men are a dark skinned group after seven dark skinned. I mean, here's what I think. I think what the light skinned folks have or what they do is they find a way to rise above. I mean, there were four people in Destiny's Child. Four people in Destiny's Child. Somehow Beyonce just went all the way. You know what I mean?

[David Bord]

Just cannibalized the whole shit.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, Devoe. Look, every New Edition fan, male or female, will tell you the coolest cat in that group is Ronny Devoe. I mean, Ralph is a close second.

[Langston Kerman]

I was about to say Ralph cold brother. I'm a Ralph man myself. But I hear you listening.

[David Bord]

I'm a Bobby guy, but I understand why that's not for everybody. I understand.

[Kevin Avery]

But okay, but there again, Bobby Brown, dark skinned dude left New Edition. New Edition and then just went far beyond what they were.

[David Bord]

Right? So nasty, you know?

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah. And so I think dark skinned folks have been, you know, putting it down in R and B for a while, but now. But the light skinned folks do find a way to peek through there and you know, steal sometimes steal the shine.

[David Bord]

And what would that talent be? What would you call that skill

[Langston Kerman]

again? Be careful. Yeah, that one out of the game.

[David Bord]

I was like

[Kevin Avery]

what about that break? When we going on to Fellas?

[Langston Kerman]

I don't think you have to answer it. I'm happy to throw the break.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, I'm thirsty. I'm about to. Let me take a swig.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, go ahead and take a swig.

[David Bord]

We're gonna take a break.

[Langston Kerman]

We'll be back with more Kevin Hannah.

[Kevin Avery]

He's laughing too hard. He laughing too damn hard.

[Langston Kerman]

And more. My mama told me.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types. And it's designed to work as a computer. A complete skin care system leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of melon leaf stem cell technology. Its melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, one why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All of that [e-mail] Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Kevin Avery]

I don't know if you knew this but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full [e-mail] youm're

[Langston Kerman]

a pro at running your life. At committing to your workout. At showing up every day. At Bombas we're pros too. Pros at making socks. Our sport assortment has specialized socks for whatever sport you're committed to. Running, hiking, golf, Pilates and so much more. Made with sweat, wicking yarns, blister fighting details and targeted arch support. Bombas Sport is pro level socks from the pros of socks. For another pro, you go to bombas.com audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's bombas.com and use code audio. Life is full of choices.

[Kevin Avery]

But the choice between getting crispy chicken

[Langston Kerman]

nuggets or a crunchwrap slider isn't one. You'll have to make the new crispy chicken crunchwrap slider at Taco Bell. All white meat chicken nuggets breaded in

[David Bord]

tortilla chips, wrapped up sauce and all

[Langston Kerman]

inside a slider sized crunchwrap.

[Kevin Avery]

Choose from creamy chipotle or jalapeno honey mustard. Well, there we go. Life still full of choices.

[Langston Kerman]

The new crispy chicken crunchwrap slider. A brand new classic.

[Kevin Avery]

Only a Taco Bell.

[Langston Kerman]

And participating in those Taco Bell locations

[Kevin Avery]

for a limited time and while supplies last.

[Langston Kerman]

And we are back.

[Kevin Avery]

Stop.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Oh, stop.

[David Bord]

Oh,

[Langston Kerman]

oh, I can't breathe. Stop. Yeah, we're back here. We're back with more Kevin Avery.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

More.

[Langston Kerman]

My mama told me. We're still talking about the possibility that lights the skinned people are inherently naturally God given. Good at R and B. That drop came to us from a listener named Gary. Gary sent us that drop and it seemed very apt to play today, given the conversation.

[Kevin Avery]

Indeed. Something just occurred to me. Something just occurred to me. I wonder if we've seen a turn in that back in the day, the birth of these, all the Motown groups and stuff, if that's when the light skinned singers really had their day.

[David Bord]

Like, are we talking like a Smokey Robinson type?

[Kevin Avery]

I keep thinking about Smokey. I don't. I mean, I don't know those groups. I don't know the lineup of those groups that. Well, I don't, you know. But with a temptation. Who were the light skinned cats and like the Temptations.

[Langston Kerman]

Ain't no light skinned cats.

[Kevin Avery]

Michael was dark.

[Langston Kerman]

Michael was dark. He made a choice.

[Kevin Avery]

That don't count. Yeah, yeah. Michael slid into light skinism.

[David Bord]

Yeah. That was. He learned. He. He learned it late in life. There were no dark. There were no light skinned temptations. I don't think.

[Kevin Avery]

No. You know what? I don't remember a light skinned pip.

[David Bord]

I don't think there was a light skinned pip.

[Kevin Avery]

I think it was Smokey.

[Langston Kerman]

Smokey is the best example I think anybody can come up with. And he had light eyes. So I feel like that's. That's a whole different type of person. You know what I mean is that.

[David Bord]

Yes, this is. I'm not qualified to speak on that.

[Langston Kerman]

Light skinned dudes with light Skin with light eyes feels like a different game than what I'm playing. Do you know what I mean? Michael Ealy and Boris Kojo are not putting the same, the same energy out into the game.

[David Bord]

I think that's reasonable. I think that's how I feel about like very physically fit dark skinned men and myself.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, exactly.

[David Bord]

Like you see Djimon Hounsou without a shirt on. That's not, that's not. Those aren't the roles I'm going for.

[Langston Kerman]

No. We didn't have the same opportunities laid in front of us.

[Kevin Avery]

No.

[David Bord]

Taye Diggs was in the theater.

[Kevin Avery]

I see Michael Ealy around my neighborhood semi regularly and I just seem suddenly, it's just, I feel like he's my nemesis for no reason at all. The brother's never done anything to me, but I see him and I'm just

[David Bord]

like the eyes, they are piercing.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah.

[David Bord]

And let me break this down. I think a lot of this came from. This is actually, this is good for my personal story. I'm getting this right now. I have a play cousin who is six years older than me who is light skinned with green eyes.

[Kevin Avery]

Uh oh, woo.

[David Bord]

And sang R and B and danced and all that of the time and we would go to the mall and shit and people would ask if he could sing and shit like that. So I think that this may be, this may be a. This may be about light skinned people with green eyes for me.

[Langston Kerman]

There we go.

[David Bord]

We also had another girl that was around us all the time and she had blue eyes but she was not as light skinned as he was.

[Langston Kerman]

And I'm so happy, I guess, to hear you saying this because it does feel like now we're getting to the root of where some of this feeling is coming from. That while I'm sure there's plenty of evidence, Kevin, as you pointed out, there are some light skinned singers and performers that populate these sort of charts as they were. There seems to me to be a pretty substantial, if not heavier leaning ratio towards dark skinned people.

[David Bord]

Now I'm gonna say, I don't know why I don't trust what you're saying right now, but I feel heavily on the defensive.

[Langston Kerman]

For some reason I took the time to look up, you know, the list and I do think your point about Whitney Houston in the right lighting. They probably did a bunch of stuff to make Whitney look darker or rather lighter than she actually was in the show.

[David Bord]

Oh, they blew up a lot of people. I mean, I think JoJo or KC from KC and JoJo freaking. You he's blasted with light. Like all those videos. He looks like almost light skinned.

[Kevin Avery]

Now. I'll say this about Jodeci. Devante was light skinned, right? Yeah, he's light skinned.

[David Bord]

And he was the king of Jodeci.

[Kevin Avery]

He was the. Yeah, he was the brains behind the operation.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, but fellas, how'd that work out for him?

[Kevin Avery]

That's true. That's true.

[David Bord]

Devontae had a run. Don't do that. Don't do that.

[Kevin Avery]

He had his moment.

[David Bord]

Yeah. Let's not sit here. And down devontae.

[Langston Kerman]

They put his name in the middle and then they kicked him out.

[Kevin Avery]

What do you want? What do you want from me? I don't think. Well, a couple of fun facts about Jodeci. There's a fifth member.

[David Bord]

Uh, oh, is he fat?

[Kevin Avery]

I don't. I've never seen him, but he's a guy. I can't remember his name, but he was on the original. The original demos of the songs that they recorded that they took to Andre Harrell when they were all gonna go up to New York. He was gonna go with them, and his girlfriend got pregnant and they were like, well, hang back, bruh. We gonna go up there, take care of this business.

[Langston Kerman]

Oh, no.

[Kevin Avery]

I don't know if he volunteered. I think let's. To be fair, I think he was like, I need to stay with my girl. They were like, cool, we'll go handle this and we'll send for you when it's. When it's all about to go down. But Andre Harrell was like, I like this. This two sets of brothers thing. It's just gonna be y'.

[David Bord]

All.

[Kevin Avery]

And that was that.

[Langston Kerman]

Whoa, that's heartbreaking.

[David Bord]

That hurts.

[Kevin Avery]

And then the other thing is that I. Devontae, I believe one point he was dating. I just thought this was the weirdest thing. He was dating the daughter of a, you know, hardcore evangelist. One of the popular ones, I think it was Jim and Tammy Faye Baker.

[David Bord]

No, a white lady.

[Kevin Avery]

Their daughter. Yeah.

[David Bord]

Devonte. Yo, that guy. That's like forever cements him being a legend to me. That's the most amazing thing I've ever heard.

[Kevin Avery]

That's surreal, right? I never heard that. I don't know. I mean, they're both. They were both from, like, Pentecostal churches, so they were.

[Langston Kerman]

You know, before you celebrate too much, I will say that that is technically the formula to making a light skin R and B singer.

[David Bord]

That is true.

[Langston Kerman]

Devonte mushing into Jim and Tammy Faye Bakery.

[David Bord]

Did you say mushing in?

[Kevin Avery]

Yep.

[Langston Kerman]

Which is another Song that I think was on Kevin's demo, Mushing In.

[Kevin Avery]

That was one of our big.

[David Bord]

That was an ellipses after. It's a black thing. Mushing in.

[Langston Kerman]

When you're putting the album order together, you gotta go. It's a black thing. Mushing in.

[Kevin Avery]

Mushing in. I'm trying to remember some of the other titles, and I can't. There was a song called Stalking. It was not about. Nope, not about that. I didn't want to say it, but it was about. It was like, about. It was a very militant, pro black song.

[Langston Kerman]

Oh, okay.

[David Bord]

Okay.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah. It was not about the other thing. There was something called the. I wrote a lot of. A lot of, like, romantic love ballads. I was that dude just kind of floating around in the. You know, there are two kinds of R B crews. There are sexy. There's the sexy boys and the sad boys. And I felt kind of in between the. You know what I mean? Like, because, like, you have boys to men.

[David Bord]

You were more boys to men.

[Kevin Avery]

Yes.

[Langston Kerman]

You were Savoy boy.

[Kevin Avery]

I wanted to be a new addition. I was a sad boy. Sad boy rising. Yeah. I mean, like, this is the thing that fascinates me about the Boyz II Men's trajectory is that they came out at the same year as Jodeci. They were before Jodeci, I believe. And they were. They had hit their stride.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah.

[Kevin Avery]

And then Jodeci stepped out and just them overalls and nothing else and doing the whole thing. And everyone was like, who are they? And Boys to Men were still on bended knee. Like, hey, hello.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah.

[David Bord]

Yeah.

[Kevin Avery]

Like, just to watch the audience leave Boyz II Men and go to Joe to see. It was a very interesting moment.

[Langston Kerman]

Well, I will say, I think Boyz II Men played it right in that, like, Jodeci took their shirts off and then Boyz II Men were like, we'll put more sweaters on.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah.

[David Bord]

We're wearing double sweater vests.

[Langston Kerman]

Truly wear cardigans on top of cardigans.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah.

[Langston Kerman]

We're not gonna play this game with you little tiny, buff boys.

[Kevin Avery]

Hey, look, Jodeci can tie. Jodeci can't tie a bow tie. You know, that's a selling point. And no, they weren't buff. They were all like, skinny ass dudes.

[David Bord]

I think if it. I think if it came down to it, physically, Boyz II Men would give Jodeci the work, to be honest.

[Kevin Avery]

Oh, no, I don't know about that.

[David Bord]

Wanye had that stick. Are you serious?

[Langston Kerman]

No, Wanye didn't have the stick. Michael had the stick.

[David Bord]

Michael had the stick, had this because

[Langston Kerman]

he needed it because he was in crippling pain walking around trying to say.

[Kevin Avery]

True.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, he had some. He had like some physical disease that like made it so that he needed the cane and then tried to.

[David Bord]

Oh, I didn't know he was sick. I didn't know he was sick.

[Langston Kerman]

So one of the things I did think to research in relation to this topic and there isn't a lot that I felt like I could really unpack.

[David Bord]

No, this is. We're this new territory. Yes.

[Langston Kerman]

One of the things that I found is that research does show that in terms of anatomical representations in textbooks, 1.1% of the diagrams represented are dark skin tones, while 83.5% represented light skin tones.

[Kevin Avery]

Jesus.

[David Bord]

Who you telling? Who you telling? I mean, yeah, I seen one guy who looked like me on tv. It was me.

[Langston Kerman]

You were the first in your entire life that you saw on TV that looked like you.

[David Bord]

I mean, it was big on that episode of Martin.

[Langston Kerman]

Sure.

[David Bord]

It was rock towards the end when he got thicker. Ah, that's about it.

[Langston Kerman]

Damn, this is hard for me.

[Kevin Avery]

So you're talking about big dudes and dark skinned dudes.

[David Bord]

Big, dark.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, man.

[David Bord]

You Faison love.

[Langston Kerman]

Faison love had a big run.

[David Bord]

Parenthood.

[Kevin Avery]

Gary Anthony Williams.

[David Bord]

Yes, yes. On Malcolm.

[Kevin Avery]

Well, his big. I think his big thing was his big start was Malcolm in the Middle.

[David Bord]

Right, right, right.

[Kevin Avery]

You know. Yeah. But yeah, you're right. Not a lot of.

[Langston Kerman]

No.

[Kevin Avery]

What's his face. The dad on Family Matters.

[David Bord]

Oh, Carl Winslow.

[Kevin Avery]

Carl Winslow.

[David Bord]

Lavelle Johnson, I believe is his name.

[Langston Kerman]

It's something.

[David Bord]

Reginald Vel Johnson.

[Kevin Avery]

Yes, thank you.

[Langston Kerman]

Reginald Vel. That's it. There you go.

[David Bord]

But there's not. I think that's where I'm coming from also is that there's just not a lot of representation. So you sweep it all together. You know what I mean?

[Kevin Avery]

Right.

[Langston Kerman]

And to that researchers note in relation to this textbook theory, not necessarily to what you're speaking to, but I imagine it has.

[David Bord]

Once again, Langston painting me in the corner.

[Langston Kerman]

I think there's some correlation that you could create. The researchers note that such skin color bias has a negative impact on the health outcomes of people with dark skin tones who may avoid or delay sexual education opportunities or clinical care if they do not see themselves represented in the recommended resources I wanted on wax.

[David Bord]

I learned about sex early.

[Kevin Avery]

Okay,

[David Bord]

but the other things.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, but that's crazy. Noted that if you don't see yourself, you don't then learn to. You see yourself, you die in sex. Textbooks, you then will, will opt not towards like sexual health and responsibility, at least based on the research. And to the larger concern, if you're not seeing yourself be sexy on tv, you will then not know the language or how to apply the language of sexy in your, your other everyday shit.

[David Bord]

That's facts though. I had to go out and get it myself. You do have to like, like, like to that end, like it was like until I had been sexually active for a bit, I had always viewed my skin as a detriment because that's the only way it had ever been. Like, like not just the lack of dark skinned people on television, but then to go to the, the lack of like, like seeing a super dark dude get a girl on, on TV is like seeing an Asian dude get a girl on tv. It doesn't happen very often.

[Langston Kerman]

Right, right.

[Kevin Avery]

But then do you think that's potentially why. And this is a reach, like there are so many dark skinned singers who I, at some point, let's just say from the Jodeci point on, just leaned into the sexualization of themselves and their music because it was something that might not necessarily have been out there for a while. You know, I mean I, I can just, I could just remember a time when I to listen to, to R and B singers and being like, hey, y' all need to calm the hell. We ain't doing that, Usher. You know what I'm saying?

[David Bord]

Like, but, but. Cause they were all doing, every one

[Kevin Avery]

of them was like, let me tell you what I'm gonna do to you. You know, it's like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Wait a minute, child. You know, Choke you. Yeah, yeah.

[David Bord]

I wonder. That's a good question. I mean, there's always been hyper sexualized black singers though. You take it back to right. Teddy Pendergrass only did concerts for women for a while, right?

[Kevin Avery]

Oh, that's right.

[Langston Kerman]

Wait, so that was a rule he made that like you couldn't come to his concert if you weren't a woman.

[David Bord]

Well, that was his manager, Shep Gordon being like. I believe it was Shep Gordon. Somebody can quote me if I'm wrong. But that was his manager being like, that's what we lean into. 100%. 100%.

[Langston Kerman]

Whoa.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah. I think it was like an invite thing. Like if you're a man, you could come, but this ain't for you. Yeah. What do you think you're gonna do there?

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Teddy P. Ain't talking to you.

[Kevin Avery]

So, yeah, just one brother back there, arms folded like. All right, all Right.

[Langston Kerman]

Okay.

[Kevin Avery]

You warned me. Yeah.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now.

[Langston Kerman]

Now.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.

[Kevin Avery]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone. Paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Langston Kerman]

See full [e-mail] it never happens at a good time. The pipe bursts at midnight. The heater quits on the coldest night.

[Kevin Avery]

Suddenly you're overwhelmed.

[Langston Kerman]

That's when Homeserve is here for 4.99amonth.

[Kevin Avery]

You're never alone.

[David Bord]

Just call their 24.

[Langston Kerman]

7 hotline and a local pro is on the way. Trusted by millions, Homeserve delivers peace of mind when you need it most.

[David Bord]

For plans Starting at just $4.99 a month, go to homeserve.com that's homeserve.com not available everywhere.

[Langston Kerman]

Most plans range between $4.99 to $11.99 a month.

[David Bord]

Your first year terms apply on covered repairs.

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

Here's another mouth watering recipe idea from Morrican, the world's finest rice vinegar. Try a Morrican hot chicken sandwich with pickled cucumbers made with chilies, garlic and the vibrant, zesty flavor of Morakan Genuine Brewed Rice Vinegar. Or go sweet and savory with Morakan Seasoned Gourmet, a flavor bomb for veggies and grilled proteins. Get the green label for genuine brewed or the orange label for seasoned Gourmet. Then check out ricevinegar.com for more delicious recipes because the food you love is better with Maracon.

[Langston Kerman]

So. So I guess the question that I sort of have Bori, and I'm directing this one at you, but Kevin, I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. Is given. Given what we know now Are you starting to at least reconsider statistically the difference? What? Consider the possibility that this is more about treatment inside of it than it is about the actual statistics of light skinned people being naturally inclined for R&B, 100%.

[David Bord]

I mean, my whole life is a journey of learning. I'm open to that. You know what I mean? I'm not going to sit here. I think that, I think that a lot of these things about representation though. I think it lends people to telling young people which direction to move in because of representation, where it's like, if you're more inclined to, maybe the visibility is there, but you're still more inclined to think that this is this type of thing for this type of person. I think that that is the type of thing that children internalize a lot. That's exactly what I think. Definitely that is the case.

[Kevin Avery]

Absolutely. I mean, look, the whole reason I'm in a singing group is because when I was a kid, my mom saw New Edition on TV and was like, look at these little kids singing. And I was like, oh, so little kids can do this shit? Well, I mean, that's exactly how it happened. That's the only reason I was. I got excited about someday doing that. So, yeah, I think. But my. I just, I just wonder. Cause yeah, I don't believe. I think it's the opposite. I think, you know, clearly it seems like there are more dark skinned singers, popular dark skinned singers than there are light skinned. And I just wonder.

[David Bord]

And that was the whole reason I brought this up. You're not trapped in here with me. I'm trapped in here with you. Vice versa.

[Kevin Avery]

You want it the other way around, bro?

[Langston Kerman]

You're trapped in here with me. I'm the victim. I'm the prisoner. Ta da. I do think to that larger point, there is a weird association even as a light skinned person. Now that we are clearly the victim in this story. As a light skinned person. It is that weird thing of people being like light skinned R and B singing motherfucker. And it's like, dawg, it's only like three of us. And one of them is. I'll be sure. Like, it's not. We're not hitting great numbers here. Truly. John B. Was a white man. He scammed y'.

[David Bord]

All.

[Langston Kerman]

Like, really? Yeah.

[Kevin Avery]

He's not even.

[Langston Kerman]

He's not black. He just had a lineup.

[David Bord]

He had that yellow fleece.

[Langston Kerman]

Nah, Big dog. All for One.

[David Bord]

That song with Tupac.

[Langston Kerman]

That song, that group, all for One. Those were white guys. They weren't. Those weren't black guys.

[Kevin Avery]

I thought they were Asians. Even better, I thought they were Asians.

[David Bord]

All for one was Asians.

[Kevin Avery]

I think I. They'll quote me on it, but I think they were Asian. I at one point thought New Kids on the Block was black because I heard that. When I heard that Please Don't Go Girl and little Joey McIntyre singing that falsehood, I just assumed black. First of all, there were no white kids. There were no white guys out there doing that at the time. So I just was like another singing group, black kids. And then I saw them and I was like, what is happening?

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, not at all. In fact, one of them is least a brother to a deeply racist man who's now become a lovely, I guess, actor and household name. Who knows?

[Kevin Avery]

That's what I hear. Yeah, that's word on the street.

[Langston Kerman]

But the point is, I think that some of this is a little bit coming from our expectations of each other more than it is our actual knowledge of each other.

[David Bord]

Right, right.

[Kevin Avery]

But to go even beyond that, there is a weird thing where, I mean, look, going back to the days of the Cotton Club where in entertainment the light skinned folks were put out front. And so I think it's hard to sort of shake that even if in the current it's weird like tv, tv, light skinned music. Back in the day, you know, light skinned. But in between, there's been this space in between that where it's been occupied by a lot of dark. At least in the music world, it's been occupied by a lot of dark skinned folks.

[Langston Kerman]

And I think that's 100% fair. And something that we can't skip past. Right. Is that there is a priority placed on light skinned performers in a lot of different spaces, especially more visual spaces.

[David Bord]

Right?

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, exactly.

[David Bord]

Especially back in the day, music was a lot less visual. You know what I mean? You didn't necessarily know what KC looks like, but you didn't know what the new Aunt Viv looked like.

[Langston Kerman]

Exactly. There, there's a very intentional choosing of who will become our representation and then it would be unfair to not acknowledge that. But statistically, Luther Vandross, baby, that's the best that ever did it. And darker than that thing.

[Kevin Avery]

Yep.

[David Bord]

Yeah, man, God bless you.

[Kevin Avery]

You know, I mean, I think also there's a component of a threat is more threatening when it's visual and so on. You are gonna see more light skinned, you know, quote unquote, non threatening folks on tv, they, you know, I think white America was able to look the other way and go, we're not worried about what these R and B singers are doing. They're doing their thing. And so, and especially, you know, music being as segregated as it was for a long time, it was like, sure, we ain't worried about it. And so you saw a lot of dark skinned artists breaking through and really not taking over, but just, you know, they were everywhere, the, you know, dark skinned artists. Like you said, I don't remember light skinned due to the Temptations or, you know, or the Pit or whatever. And so it almost is like there was a time when the, you know, the dude in the skyscraper was like, let's just leave them to their own devices.

[David Bord]

Right? Let them be.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, in a yuckier way. It also then reminds me the transformation it makes because I think you're absolutely right. There was a period where they were just like, the Four Tops, the Delfonics, the Temptations. They'll all be dark. We don't give a shit. That's their stuff. And then at some point it became A and R's figuring out a way to sell this thing, Package this thing. And it doesn't feel dissimilar to like the white rapper conversation, right?

[Kevin Avery]

Yes.

[Langston Kerman]

There are not more white rappers, but the white rappers that make it get elevated in a way that makes you feel like, yo, what the fuck is happening? That makes it so that they. That whether he's talented or not, there's no reason this individual should be so far ahead of everybody else at his same level, caliber, whatever.

[Kevin Avery]

That's exactly it. Yeah. I mean, similarly, you know, and I'm not familiar with these groups, but I, you know, I've heard about this. The idea that in the 50s or 60s, there would be the, you know, whoever out there, you know, insert whatever black singing group out there doing their thing, and then they would find a white singing boy.

[David Bord]

Oh, yeah. They'd give it to the Voice to

[Kevin Avery]

sort of mirror what they did. Yeah, exactly.

[David Bord]

And so happened to Chuck Berry a lot, right?

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I think, yeah, you know, the business side of music has always figured out a way to go, all right, let's let them do their thing and we're gonna elevate our people. And you know, and sort of. It's what literally happened with singing groups. It's what literally happened with. I mean, there was no such thing as a boy Band before 1990. It wasn't a thing. And then New Kids on the Block showed up and white people had never really heard of this. What is. There were like boys in a. It's a boy band, I guess. Right? And now everybody who was in a singing group is a boy band.

[Langston Kerman]

Right? Cause nobody was calling the Beatles a boy band.

[David Bord]

Exactly.

[Langston Kerman]

But it's the same formula of four handsome guys. Handsome for that time period. They're uggos to me and always will be. But handsome for that time period got together and had women swooning over their popular music. It's not like a foreign concept, right?

[David Bord]

So what I'm. If I'm hearing you fellas correctly, I think what we need today is like an R and B group of like four ugly ass light skinned dudes.

[Langston Kerman]

Ah, I like this.

[Kevin Avery]

Okay, okay, right, I'm listening.

[David Bord]

That's what we need to change the narrative. We need four, maybe old, kind of busted down, like pain. Cause they need it. Boys to men body.

[Langston Kerman]

Boys to men bodies.

[Kevin Avery]

Boys to men body.

[Langston Kerman]

I want them to have C section scars under their eyes. I want it to be real bad.

[David Bord]

One's got acne, like adult acne. And then one's got adult braces.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, they've gotta look like all the stages of Lil Wayne spread out across four men.

[Kevin Avery]

Maybe just, you know, just for shits and giggles, one of them has a bluetooth in their ear at all times.

[Langston Kerman]

Oh yeah, just keep it alive.

[David Bord]

Yeah, Bluetooth.

[Langston Kerman]

Maybe one of those belts, you remember those belts you would wear that light up and they, they say with a name plate that says your name across.

[David Bord]

Well, I wouldn't wear this. This might go back to a light skinned, dark skin thing.

[Langston Kerman]

No, come on, brother. We all have nameplate belts.

[David Bord]

I did not have a name.

[Langston Kerman]

We're coming here. Don't you dare turn on.

[David Bord]

Okay, okay, okay. I didn't have one though. I did not have one. I did not have one.

[Langston Kerman]

I did. I didn't either.

[David Bord]

I thought about what I would program.

[Langston Kerman]

Hey, none of us, none of us have done horrible things in our lives. We all, we all made the perfect choice.

[David Bord]

No, that's not. You can't do that to me because I didn't have a nameplate belt.

[Langston Kerman]

I think that's not, that's not fair. In the middle of, in the middle of my civil rights speech. You went. Well, I don't agree with that part.

[David Bord]

That's not what happened.

[Langston Kerman]

What an ugly choice.

[David Bord]

I didn't have a digital nameplate belt. You can't fault me for that. I got it. I understood the look. You get a long sleeve white tee with like a wrapper on it, you do a French tuck.

[Langston Kerman]

A French tuck, that's right. But don't you dare call it a French tuck? Don't you go, hey, fellas, here's a French tuck.

[David Bord]

No, you can't tell people it's a French tuck.

[Langston Kerman]

No, but, you know.

[David Bord]

I know.

[Kevin Avery]

I didn't know what you were talking about, and yet I knew exactly what you meant.

[David Bord]

Yeah, man, I googled French tuck not seven days ago.

[Langston Kerman]

I learned it from tan French on unqueer.

[Kevin Avery]

I somehow just knew it. I don't think that's good.

[David Bord]

It's inherent.

[Kevin Avery]

Oh, boy.

[Langston Kerman]

It's inherent to know the French duck. It's inherent. For light skinned people to do R and B, there are certain things that are just God made, you know?

[Kevin Avery]

I mean, look, I'm living proof. I did it.

[David Bord]

We all are living proof. In the booth.

[Kevin Avery]

One finger in my ear.

[David Bord]

Ooh, I love it.

[Kevin Avery]

The whole deal.

[David Bord]

Yeah, you did that. Langston had a nameplate belt, and I played offensive line. There's a lot of us are just. We're just. We're just living the lives that we were trying to. We're trying to get break out of our boxes, you know?

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah, this is. It does feel like those. Those choose your own adventure books where you are always gonna die. You know what I mean? You were never gonna make it to the end and get in the rocket ship. Something bad was gonna happen. Well, Kevin, before we. Before we wrap this thing up and I think. I think we nailed this episode, by the way.

[David Bord]

I think we got it.

[Kevin Avery]

Oh, I think. I think there should be a textbook written on the. They should just transcribe this.

[David Bord]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Kevin Avery]

Put it in a museum somewhere.

[Langston Kerman]

Let me ask you this question because it sounds like. Was your brother a part of the group as well? Were you guys in this together?

[Kevin Avery]

No, he. No. But he did a weird thing where, like, he then told me he had joined some group, and I never got to the bottom of it. Got to the bottom of it. I just remember he one, I came home for, like, the holidays, and he was like. He was in college. And he was like, yeah, they called me sexual chocolate.

[David Bord]

And I was like, whoa, whoa.

[Kevin Avery]

Okay.

[David Bord]

You're like, college is crazy, bro.

[Kevin Avery]

That's what he was like. He was very excited about that, and I didn't want to hear it, but there we were, stuck in that moment together. I think he did it briefly, and then it was not A.

[Langston Kerman]

He definitely took on the R and B character, if not the actual R and B singing that you did yourself.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, I think he went through a lot of that stuff. Like, he just sort of. He's like, I'm going to try this, and I'm going to try this. And then he went and, like, immediately after college, got a real job and, you know, bought a house and got married and did all the things.

[Langston Kerman]

I guess the larger question, comedy.

[David Bord]

But I mean, that's because he got to live out his fantasy as sexual chocolate.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, true.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah. If I wasn't dumb old Langston Carmen and I got to be sexual Chocolate, I probably. I'd have landed a little differently as well.

[David Bord]

Oh, are you kidding me, bro? I'd be one of the top regional sellers of car insurance right now. I'd be. So you'd see my face.

[Kevin Avery]

Sexual chocolate would be on your name tag, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or that'd be on the plaque that they give you for making your numbers.

[David Bord]

It would also be on my digital. Digital readout.

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, there you go.

[Langston Kerman]

I guess the big question that I want to ask is, any regrets about the R and B group? Where are you at in terms of the full circle? You're a grown man. You've moved on. You make great comedy now. You do all the things that are opposite of what this is. Is there any part of you that's like, this shouldn't have been part of the journey?

[David Bord]

Yeah. You've won Emmys, like.

[Langston Kerman]

Yeah.

[Kevin Avery]

I mean, I think about what I wanted then, and I go, well, I'd be done by now, I think. I mean, you know, I saw New Edition in concert like, a month or two ago. They are one of the few groups that's still just out there doing it. But, you know, if our group had become successful, I think we might have had a moment and then we would have been gone. Like, a lot of groups were. And then I don't know what I'd be doing. Maybe I'd still be doing stand up. Maybe I'd, you know. But I think I try not to regret the trajectory, even though I overthink it a lot. I think that's part of being in this business, being an artist. Maybe I should have done this or, you know, whatever. But I'm glad I got to live a dream for a minute, and now I'm on to doing other things and living other dreams, so.

[Langston Kerman]

That's beautiful.

[David Bord]

It is beautiful.

[Langston Kerman]

That's a nice way for us to wrap this thing up.

[Kevin Avery]

And look, if all else fails, I'm still light skinned, y'.

[Langston Kerman]

All. Hey, there it is. He did it.

[Kevin Avery]

He did it. He did it.

[Langston Kerman]

There it is.

[David Bord]

Timestamp, Timestamp.

[Langston Kerman]

That's what I needed to hear. And now I'll sleep just fine. I think we did it, y'. All. Kevin, could you tell the people at home where they can find you and what cool shit you have going on?

[Kevin Avery]

Yeah, you can. I'm one of those people who's on Twitter but for some reason doesn't tweet. But I'm Evanavry on Twitter if you want to follow Nothingness. Otherwise you can find me on Instagram at Kevanavry Comedy and the Great north is on Sundays at Fox at 8:30. I think we're on hiatus now, but all our episodes are on Hulu. So go there and check out the show. And I'm even on the show from time to time. Look for my buddy Jarvis Dufresne. And yeah, that's it. These streets.

[Langston Kerman]

Hit the streets, Follow Kevin and obviously watch the Great North. And then, David, where can they find you? What you got going on?

[David Bord]

You know, Follow me on Instagram @coolguyjokes87. I sometimes post post, you know, things I've been grilling, places I go stand updates. July 21st through 23rd. I'm going to be at the DC Improv. I don't know when this comes out, but I assume around then. And other than that, you know, just hug your people. Have a good summer.

[Langston Kerman]

Hell yeah. Have a good summer, hug your people. Go see David perform live. And as always, you can follow me at Langston Kerman on all platforms. And if you want to send us your drops, your conspiracy theories, your degrading opinions about the work that we're doing, you can send it to mymamapodmail.com we would love to hear from you. All right. We did it.

[David Bord]

Bye, bitch. All koala bears are race. The ozone layer owes me money.

[Langston Kerman]

Sometimes the but goes through a lot. When the butt speaks, you listen. Preparation H is the best butt care expert known for helping people care for their hemorrhoids, offering relief in different forms that adapt to needs and moments. Medicated wipes formulated with witch hazel, aloe and vitamin E to help keep things calm, cool and collected. Rapid relief spray with maximum strength Lidocaine provides fast relief from itching, burning and swelling. There's also a multi symptom relief cream when broader support is needed, Preparation H treats the issue rather than just masking it. No shame here, only solutions. So if a butt has been begging for a little kindness wipe and treat for better relief with the number one doctor recommended brand preparation H for those with type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure, you may be missing a hidden signal from your kidneys. An SOS for an increased risk of cardiovascular events like heart attack or stroke. THE MISSION Detective Detect the SOS Start at detectthesos.com Learn how a simple UACR urine test can help identify kidney damage early. Talk to your doctor about getting screened. Go to detectthesos.com to learn more about UACR urine testing today. Brought to you by Behringer Ingelheim Pharmaceuticals, Inc. It's tax season, and by now we're all a bit tired of numbers. But here's an important one you need to hear $16 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud. But it's not all grim news. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com iheart Terms apply here's another

[Podcast Advertiser/Announcer]

mouthwatering recipe idea from Maracon, the world's finest rice vinegar. Try a Morrican Hot Chicken Sandwich with pickled cucumbers made with chilies, garlic, and the vibrant, zesty flavor of Morrican Genuine Brewed Rice Vinegar. Or go sweet and savory with Morakan Seasoned Gourmet, a flavor bomb for veggies and grilled proteins. Get the green label for Genuine Brewed or the orange label for Seasoned Gourmet. Then check out ricevinegar.com for more delicious recipes, because the food you love is better with Maracon.

[Langston Kerman]

This is an I Heart podcast, guaranteed.