← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
Acceptance and Agreement Are Not the Same Thing with Lena Waithe
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- [00:02]
Reshma Sajani
Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcast.
- [00:37]
Lena Waithe
Hi everyone, I'm David Duchovny. Join me on my podcast, Fail Better, where we use failure as a lens.
- [00:43]
Reshma Sajani
To reflect on the past and analyze the current moment.
- [00:46]
Lena Waithe
I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie o' Donnell, and Kenya.
- [00:51]
Reshma Sajani
Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver to understand how.
- [00:56]
Lena Waithe
Both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world. Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:08]
Reshma Sajani
Lemonada welcome to my so called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. So the next conversation, well, it didn't go as planned. I had a whole bunch of questions for Lena Waithe about the shy, her podcast Legacy talk and all of her incredible work. But when she walked in, we immediately started talking about the power of silence. She had recently just done a Vipassana, a 10 day silent retreat. And she was deep into thinking about attachment and spirituality. And I, I got sucked in right with her because as you know, I too am in the middle of my spiritual practice and deep into thinking about silence and meditation and how to be present. And so instead of going back to the script that I had thought I wanted to talk to Lena about, I just let her go. And the conversation was so powerful. I wasn't attached to what I was supposed to talk to Lena about. I let the journey take us where it was supposed to. And here's the thing, it took us to a place that was powerful. My conversation with Lena got me thinking about my spirituality too. Because you see, in midlife, it's this really profound time, not just for me, but for all of us, right? We're pondering these deep and important ideas. Sometimes we're stuck, sometimes we're full. And something that I've really wanted to explore on this podcast is spirituality is about teaching people how to be on a spiritual journey, how to start, how to get deep into it. And so I was just so excited to have this conversation this unexpected conversation with Lena because it's the gift that I wanted for all of you. Lena Waithe is an actress, producer and screenwriter. Lena became the first African American woman to win the Primetime Emmy award for outstanding writing for a comedy series in 2017 for writing the Thanksgiving episode of Master of None, the best episode ever. She's the creator of the Showtime drama series the Shy, which was renewed for an incredible eighth season. She's really created this incredible legacy for herself with her work and it's something she's given a lot of thought to. We talked about that in pretty profound ways in this conversation. Like, what does it mean to have a legacy? Why does it matter? Does it matter? Is that legacy for you or for the world? Midlifers. This is an episode. I'm telling you. You're gonna wanna have a pen and a paper for because Lena name checks so many authors and books and things that she's watching that I'm dying to check out too. And I think you are as well. So sit back, relax, enjoy this deeply moving conversation with a really incredible and phenomenal and spellbinding storyteller. Here's Lena Waithe. So this is how we always start. We always start by talking a little bit about mindset. Now you are like you're just entering midlife, right?
- [04:34]
Lena Waithe
I just turned 41 last month, so.
- [04:36]
Reshma Sajani
Some people think midlife starts at like 35. So you. But you're still liking the baby. I'm going to be 50 this. So I'm like in it. In it, right?
- [04:43]
Lena Waithe
Depends on when people think we're going to go. If you think you're going to go at 100, then that's technically mid. If you can think people think we're going to go at 80, then I'm technically smack dab in the mid. Just depends.
- [04:53]
Reshma Sajani
I guess it depends how bad your lifestyle is because I feel like we're going to live long.
- [04:58]
Lena Waithe
It all depends. Everything dies eventually. When?
- [05:02]
Reshma Sajani
Eventually. So assume we're going to live to 100. So we're kind of both in the middle.
- [05:05]
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
- [05:06]
Reshma Sajani
How, how would you describe this, this period of your life? Like, are you happy? Like, I'm a little. I'll be honest, I'm like, I am not that. I'm not that fucking hyped about turning 50. Like I still have a lot of attachment to youth. How do you feel?
- [05:21]
Lena Waithe
Well, I just like the use of that word. It's interesting because I'm coming out of this 10 day silent retreat that I did last month and I was happened to be in There on my birthday. I was in there from the 15th through the 25th. And it's called Vipassana.
- [05:40]
Reshma Sajani
And I've. I've done it.
- [05:42]
Lena Waithe
Oh, you know what I'm talking about.
- [05:43]
Reshma Sajani
I do know.
- [05:43]
Lena Waithe
Where are you? In Boston.
- [05:45]
Reshma Sajani
So I did it. Art of living. And they have it in. You can do it in the city, you can do it like a little bit outside. You did for a whole week?
- [05:51]
Lena Waithe
10 days.
- [05:52]
Reshma Sajani
Wow.
- [05:53]
Lena Waithe
Yeah. How long did you do it for?
- [05:54]
Reshma Sajani
I did it for four.
- [05:56]
Lena Waithe
Okay. Yeah.
- [05:57]
Reshma Sajani
And it was hard for me.
- [05:58]
Lena Waithe
Yeah. I mean, it's very challenging, but hopefully you found it rewarding. Curious. How long ago did you do it?
- [06:03]
Reshma Sajani
Loved it. I mean, I did it probably four years ago. But it's funny that you say that because I was trying to figure out some time. I want to do it again before I turn 50.
- [06:14]
Lena Waithe
Oh, nice. I think that'd probably be smart. I did it. This was my second time. I did it last year around the similar time. I remember I got out like June 2nd, you know, so. Yeah. But it's interesting, the reason why the word attachment kind of gave me a light bulb moment, because if you remember that attachment is the root of misery.
- [06:40]
Reshma Sajani
Absolutely.
- [06:41]
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
- [06:41]
Reshma Sajani
I'm a practicing Hindu, so I study the Bhagavad Gita. And this. It's so interesting we're having this conversation. Right. Because I think this is like. I feel like I started thinking about these things, like, in midlife. Like, I'm attached to ambition. You know what I mean? I grew up as an immigrant. I'm attached to. Right. Like still material things or accolades or just the sense of, like, oh, yes, you have achieved something in your life.
- [07:06]
Lena Waithe
Right. And it's about, where do you place value? And so it's great because, like, you already have the language, even just like you using the word attachment. Is this something that people don't often use that word? That's why I kind of was like, oh, I think we're speaking literally a similar language. Because the reason why you said you. You kind of. Because you have attachment to accomplishing maybe certain things before you turn 50. And so there. If you have not accomplished those set things, then by 50, you feel a little bit agitated.
- [07:42]
Reshma Sajani
Absolutely.
- [07:42]
Lena Waithe
And so what we know is it's about detaching ourselves from whatever it is we think we're supposed to accomplish by the time we turn 50.
- [07:51]
Reshma Sajani
Do you feel like you're. Where are you in that process?
- [07:56]
Lena Waithe
It's interesting because I really started practicing detachment in a very serious way after the first time I did It. And so I turned 40 just before I went in. So the first time. So this past year, detachment is something I've actually been. I've had a better education about it because of vipassana. And so I've just started to be thoughtful about that. And then the second time around, as they do suggest you do it every year, the ten day course, which I. I plan to do. Although the future doesn't exist and the past is gone, all we have is right now. But I hope to, you know, I'm not going to attach to the idea. But my hope is to go every year around my birthday to be reminded of detachment, to be reminded to not cling to things that feel good. And the thing. And also. But I was interesting because. And I spoke to Young Pueblo who writes a lot of great books that a lot of people probably are familiar with. He's the person that introduced the idea of it to me. But I asked him, what's the difference between, you know, ambition.
- [09:07]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [09:08]
Lena Waithe
And sort of wanting. Because we are sort of taught to accept reality as it is, not as we wish it to be. But oftentimes if you're a manifester or if you're ambitious, you in essence are wanting that thing. He gave me a really beautiful answer where he was saying you can put energy toward those things, but try not to put tension towards those things.
- [09:31]
Reshma Sajani
I love that.
- [09:32]
Lena Waithe
I loved it too. I mean. Cause it was really helpful because when you are an ambitious person, you can get that confused with clinging to or attaching to like things that haven't occurred.
- [09:46]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [09:47]
Lena Waithe
And so if those things don't occur, then that can result in misery or agitation. Right.
- [09:52]
Reshma Sajani
I love what you're saying. So my teacher also taught me that like. Cause I had a similar question. Cause I was like, so is it, is it bad to want things?
- [10:02]
Lena Waithe
I mean, it's a really good question.
- [10:03]
Reshma Sajani
Right. Is it bad to want things? And so when we talked about, he's like, no, God wants you to want things. Correct. But we are wanting things in his service. Right, Right. Not in the service of your own ego. And that shift for me, Lena was like really powerful. Right. Because I stopped feeling guilty about like I have an ambition for making the world a better place.
- [10:27]
Lena Waithe
That's a beautiful one and a beautiful desire.
- [10:29]
Reshma Sajani
But I just feel I would be like, wait, is that. But should I. I was feeling guilty though about the outcomes in furtherance of that ambition. You see what I'm saying? Because I was like, is that disconnected? Is that too connected to my own ego? And I think Parsing that out for me really helped.
- [10:43]
Lena Waithe
Well, yeah, And I also think the question becomes, what is your definition of a better place? And. And. And also, why do you want the world to become a better place? Do you want to become a better place just for you and your family? Or do you want the world to be better for everyone? And so then you get to start thinking about, well, what does it look like for the world to be better for everyone? And for the world to be better for everyone means everyone has what they need. I mean, everybody gets everything that they want.
- [11:16]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [11:17]
Lena Waithe
But then the other question is, I think we have to ask ourselves, why do we want the things that we do? Because if you want a fancy car, the question becomes, why?
- [11:30]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, so let me. So we. So this is so good, because I was thinking about this. I have a strong. This was a lesson that I had to learn a little bit because I grew up. I grew up in Chicago, Born in Berwyn, Illinois. Grew up, went to school in Schaumburg. I know you were up in south side. And so, you know, as. And I think you relate to this is like, as a daughter of refugees, and my parents were always struggling, but that also meant that, like, the American dream or the fact that we could go to, you know, Olive Garden or they could buy a nice home in Schomburg, right? Or they could have, like, my family, you know, wore the forensic sweatshirt but bought the nice car. You know what I mean? Because it was still a way of showing the community that they've made it.
- [12:22]
Lena Waithe
And that, I think, is a result of us living in a capitalist society. And that is a reality that I have to accept. And what I've also learned is that acceptance and agreement are not the same thing.
- [12:39]
Reshma Sajani
So I love that.
- [12:41]
Lena Waithe
Just because you accept your reality doesn't always necessarily mean you're in agreement with it. So the reason why the American dream often looks like a fancy car, a nice house, you know, your kids going to colleges or universities, is because it services capitalism. And just as like, the beauty industry is. Is built on women being told they are not beautiful, Right? Because if every woman in the world or people that identify as a woman think that they're beautiful as they are.
- [13:20]
Reshma Sajani
What can I sell? You can't sell you nothing.
- [13:22]
Lena Waithe
Sephora goes out of business.
- [13:23]
Reshma Sajani
Right?
- [13:23]
Lena Waithe
Plastic surgeons have nothing to do.
- [13:25]
Reshma Sajani
Do you feel that way about the. So this year you feel that way about the American dream, too? Because I. I guess I'm still very attached to the American dream because I think about how my parents came here with $6 in their pockets, came with nothing, Changed their name from Mukundan Madhu to Mike and Mina. Right. Like, and now their daughter is one's a doctor, one's, you know, making the world a little bit better. But like, when my father, you know, I'm going back home to Chicago on Sunday to interview Jacinda Arden, you know, on her book tour. And I know my father's gonna sit there in this audience of a thousand people and watch his little girl and him think it was all worth it. And that is like the American dream to me. Right.
- [14:08]
Lena Waithe
Well, here's the thing is, like. And the American dream is at whose expense? And people have also been sold something on what America is and what it can be because my, you know, ancestors were brought here against their will.
- [14:34]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [14:34]
Lena Waithe
There are some people whose ancestors, ancestors came here looking for a better life. And the question becomes, what does the American dream actually promise you?
- [14:48]
Reshma Sajani
It may promise you different things depending upon whether you were brought here as a slave or you came here as a refugee.
- [14:55]
Lena Waithe
And the truth is, either way, you know, my grandmother migrated from the south to Chicago. She left the south at 17 because the south wasn't a, say, fun place to be for a black person. Somebody could argue it may. It's still not always a fun place to be if you're a black person. But she got a home with my grandfather, a home in which they raised three children. I got to be raised in that home as well when my mother divorced my father when I was 2 years old. And I spent the first like 2 from 10, from 2 to 12. I was living in that house. And also my grandmother helped to integrate that neighborhood. There was a cross burned on across the street from her, her neighbor's house, the Watsons.
- [15:41]
Reshma Sajani
Wow.
- [15:42]
Lena Waithe
And it was really very communal because I was growing up with kids that were the children of the kids that my mom grew up with. So it was a. I call it a three generation neighborhood, but I knew it just to be all black folks. But when my grandmother came there, it wasn't. It was not. Yeah, it was like literally raising in the sun. You know, they. They moved into a white neighborhood, not necessarily welcomed with open arms. And then white flight occurred and then it became an all black neighborhood. But by the time came along in the 80s, like, it was just a black neighborhood. And that's all I knew it to be. That was my reality. But that is also a form of the American dream, or the American story, rather, because even that term, American dream dream has a beautiful definition for us. It means something to want, to desire, to reach for. You know, it's something when you asleep, you have a dream. And when you put America and dream next to each other, you can desire it, you can want it, you can look up to it, you can start to worship it. And I think that comes from us not always accepting the reality of it. Like, what was America actually built on? How did America actually come to be? And the truth is, there's also this desire to look away from some of the horrors of how America came to become what it is. And so we have to accept the fact that America is a place with a very complex and sometimes horrifying history.
- [17:26]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Hey, Julia, Louis Dreyfus here. If you listen to me on my Wiser Than Me podcast, you probably already know that I'm an investor and an evangelist for the Mill Food Recycler. There are a lot of reasons to love mill, but for me, it's all about the impact. Keeping food out of the garbage is one of the most powerful things we can do to help the planet every single day. We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you already compost, great. But of course, there's the smell, the flies, the running to the curb every day with a little leaking compost bag made of cornstarch. That's where mill comes in. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. It can handle nearly anything from a turkey carcass to like 20 avocado pits. It works automatically while you sleep. You can keep filling it for weeks and it never, ever smells. Mill makes dry, nutrient rich grounds that you can use in your garden, add to your compost, feed to your chickens. Or mill can get them back to a small farm for you, but you kind of have to live with mill to really get it. And that's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.
- [18:41]
Reshma Sajani
As the temperatures start rising, I feel that familiar urge to refresh my closet. But I'm not wasting money on pieces I'll only wear once. Quince changes that their clothes are timeless, lightweight, and far more elevated than anything else. At this price, it finally feels like my wardrobe matches my standards. The best part? Everything with quince is half the cost of similar brands. They have 100% European linen shorts and dresses for $30 luxe swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals. So much more. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen Quince gives you luxury without the markup, and Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. This year I picked up their 100% European linen midi dress, which is versatile and perfect for the summer heat. The linen is breathable and I can easily keep the dress in rotation all summer. I can't wait to wear it on my vacations this year, but the best part is that I can easily transition it to the fall with a few layers. Give your summer closet an upgrade with Quince. Go to Quince.com Midlife for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Midlife to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Midlife are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days?
- [20:07]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted?
- [20:09]
Reshma Sajani
If this sounds like you, you are stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places.
- [20:14]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That take credit cards nationwide, and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back.
- [20:20]
Reshma Sajani
Welcome to the Now It Pays to Discover.
- [20:23]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Learn more at discover.com creditcard Based on.
- [20:26]
Reshma Sajani
The February 2024 Nielsen report I'm Hassan.
- [20:30]
Lena Waithe
Minhaj and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too AF to ask people like Senator Elizabeth Warren. Is America too dumb for democracy? Outrageous parenting expert Dr. Becky how do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath?
- [20:54]
Reshma Sajani
It's a good question. Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know From.
- [20:57]
Lena Waithe
Lemonada Media Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:12]
Reshma Sajani
I'm working on a documentary on motherhood in America and one of the things I tell people it's like the culture divide of motherhood is so deeply entrenched. I mean, it's back into the 1900s, back into slavery. Who could be a mother, who could stay at home, who had the opportunity to take care?
- [21:28]
Lena Waithe
And also, mothers were separated from babies, as we all know, because black people, in order for us to be treated in the way that we were, they couldn't necessarily think of us as human right. And so oftentimes we are living listed as almost cattle. And so those mothers did not have the right to their own children because they were both seen as property.
- [21:51]
Reshma Sajani
But you think about it. What's happening today for so Many black women, they drop their children out at night, daycare. Think about that, right? The amount, how much time, little time that they actually get to spend in caregiving. And we take all this stuff for granted. Like, we don't even think about not.
- [22:07]
Lena Waithe
Just mothers of color, but also all types of mothers. I'm reading a book right now called Mother Hunger, which is all about how your mother is supposed to give you three things. Guidance, nurturance and protection. And how more often than not, there's something that one, two, and sometimes even all three things that you don't get from your mother and how that shows up in adulthood. And so. But also you have to look back at your grandmother because you have to ask, well, what did your grandmother not give your mother? Because if whatever your mother didn't receive, it's difficult for her to give to you. And the further back you go, the less nurturance is there, the less protection is there. Sometimes even less guidance is there.
- [22:48]
Reshma Sajani
Can it ever go in reverse? Like, can you. Could you ever. Like, I'm thinking about this as a mom and some of the things that I didn't get from my mother and think about with my children, how I want to make sure, like, in my family, you never really saw anybody kiss or hug. Like, affection wasn't just a thing. And now I find myself with my children just overly.
- [23:07]
Lena Waithe
Right.
- [23:08]
Reshma Sajani
You know, because I want them to have the. The physical contact that I didn't feel I really had.
- [23:15]
Lena Waithe
True. I mean, but. But. And, and that is something you. When you identify it, then you can correct it. Course correct, if you will. But sometimes people can't always identify what they didn't get. So they may not realize, oh, I didn't get a lot of guidance. So now as an adult, I don't have a moral compass.
- [23:33]
Reshma Sajani
I didn't feel safe.
- [23:34]
Lena Waithe
Right. I didn't have a lot of protection. So therefore, I look for that in partnership. Or I didn't have a lot of nurturance, which is really sort of saying eye contact, your parent really being connected to you, knowing who you are. And a lot of, you know, I really realized, oh, I really did lack nurturance. And so there. Then you become an adult that looks for outside validation, looking for people to give you approval. Because as a young person, there was no one to say, I want to get to know you. That's really what nurturance is. And the truth is, is because a lot of mothers don't have the time, the capacity or the ability because they maybe didn't get it from Their mothers.
- [24:12]
Reshma Sajani
Do you see that with you? Because you grew up in this three generation family of women with your grandmother, your mother. I know you talk about that. Do you see that? Like what's, do you see that in your family?
- [24:21]
Lena Waithe
Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's also, it can be generational, it can also be cultural. So a lot of times there's this really great line like in fences where the son says to the father, how come you never liked me? And the father says, I don't have to like you. He basically says, like, I feed you, I clothe you, I house you. That's enough. And I think for that generation, for them, that's what parenting is or was.
- [24:53]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [24:54]
Lena Waithe
And what certainly was for mine, I mean that to me, I think it can be generational and cultural.
- [25:01]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [25:01]
Lena Waithe
So then what happens is you have a generation of people that grow up not having any real emotional connection to their parents, but yet there's this sort of responsibility that they feel to them.
- [25:14]
Reshma Sajani
Sense of duty.
- [25:15]
Lena Waithe
Yes. And you know, on Vipassana, it tells you like love, pure love comes with no expectations.
- [25:22]
Reshma Sajani
Yep.
- [25:23]
Lena Waithe
And what I think my generation, 41 or people, a lot of my friends are in their 40s, just turning 40, we're realizing, oh, there's an expectation of us to look out for the parent, to honor the parent, to take care of the parent. Not necessarily because there is a bond, but because there is a debt owed.
- [25:43]
Reshma Sajani
Well, I find apostasia though too, that the sense of duty is a good thing. Right. Because I think culturally it's like this idea of taking care of your elders is like seva. Right. It's like giving back.
- [25:57]
Lena Waithe
I don't necessarily agree in terms of that because if I just don't believe there should be an expectation, I think if there was a bond, that's what makes an adult child come back now. But also what makes an adult child come back is a sense of responsibility. And I think that to me is where a lot of tension lies and resentment. Because if your parent didn't bond with you or get to know you, which by the way, their parents didn't get to. I use the word curiosity. I think there was a lack of curiosity about who I was as a person. It was more I was something to take care of.
- [26:54]
Reshma Sajani
But was it cause they were. See, I guess the way I rationalize this with my family is because they were just trying to survive.
- [27:00]
Lena Waithe
Correct. That's totally fair. But what, but the thing is, is that in doing that, then when a person becomes an adult, there's the consequence to that.
- [27:16]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [27:16]
Lena Waithe
I mean, and here's the other thing, too. Having children is a choice.
- [27:20]
Reshma Sajani
Absolutely.
- [27:21]
Lena Waithe
And it's a choice. I'm choosing to not have kids. Now, if a person chooses to have kids because we none of us said, hey, please have me.
- [27:30]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [27:32]
Lena Waithe
So if someone has a child and that's the situation we're in now, it's like sometimes people feel like I don't have a choice. Like, like society tells women that you're only worthy.
- [27:42]
Reshma Sajani
Right. If you have a child.
- [27:43]
Lena Waithe
No. Or someone cannot afford or has a privilege to get an abortion in wherever they're living. And so my question becomes, if you're having a child, what again, we go back to the want. Why do you want to have a child? Do you want to have a child because you want to be a vessel for a person to come through into the world.
- [28:06]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [28:07]
Lena Waithe
And for them to exist in the world outside of you, or do you want them to be an extension of.
- [28:11]
Reshma Sajani
You or do you want to relive it? Or you want to relive your past? I mean, like, I mean, but again.
- [28:16]
Lena Waithe
That now is expectation on this child, on this person.
- [28:35]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
An Australian hiker travels to the American west to walk a wilderness trail.
- [28:40]
Reshma Sajani
Wasn't afraid to be out on his own.
- [28:42]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But Eric Robinson vanished in the Hyewinta Mountains.
- [28:45]
Reshma Sajani
I remember thinking, Eric, what were you thinking, mate?
- [28:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I'm Dave Cawley. Join me on my podcast Uinta Triangle, where I travel the world. To answer the question, what happened to Eric Robinson? Follow Uinta Triangle, that's U I N T a triangle. On Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.
- [29:06]
Lena Waithe
I'm Josh Mankiewicz and I hope you'll.
- [29:07]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Join us for season four of Dateline, Missing in America.
- [29:11]
Lena Waithe
In each episode of Dateline's award winning series, we will focus on one missing persons case and hear from the families, the friends and the investigators, all desperate to find them. You will want to listen closely. Maybe you could help investigators solve a mystery. DATELINE MISSING in America. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Personal finance isn't just about spreadsheets and investing. It's emotional. Talking to your partner about money, negotiating a raise. Even the smallest decisions, like splitting a bill, can bring up feelings of shame or anxiety. I'm Marie Mejres, host of this is Uncomfortable, a podcast from Marketplace about life and how money messes with it. In this season, we get into topics like workplace drama, tough financial trade offs, and the quiet tension that builds when love and finance collide. Listen to this is Uncomfortable. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:15]
Reshma Sajani
I'm Meredith Goldstein, host of the Boston Globe's Love Letters podcast, which features real people from all over the world telling stories about their relationship lives. This season we're talking about how to change for the better.
- [30:28]
Lena Waithe
I just remember thinking like, wow, this is what a healthy relationship looks and feels like.
- [30:34]
Reshma Sajani
The reason why I'm getting emotional is I didn't want to leave you. I never thought I would be this way again. Join us at Love Letters, wherever you get your podcasts. So your gift, your God given gift is your ability to storytell first black woman to, like, win the. I mean, like, you just are. Have achieved so much in your life. How do you think about what we're just talking about in terms of the stories that you tell, the stories that you're attracted to? When you decide as a creative, right, I'm gonna turn this into a script, a show, a book, you know, like, how does that impact?
- [31:25]
Lena Waithe
Well, I mean, I think, you know, for me, it's. It's really about things that are stirring inside of me that I can't let go of. Things that kind of stay with me. I don't even wanna use the word haunt, but rather things that stay. And I go, okay, I wanna explore this. Or I think my perspective on this could be an interesting one. But it really is the job of a writer, you know, to not judge. We cannot. Otherwise you can't write good characters because. And also when you're an actor, you know, we're like, we're empathy ambassadors.
- [32:00]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [32:01]
Lena Waithe
You know, it's like Meryl Streep, you know, does a beautiful job. And the Iron lady playing Margaret Thatcher, if she judges her good one.
- [32:11]
Reshma Sajani
Yep.
- [32:13]
Lena Waithe
Then so will the audience. She has to come to grips with everything this woman has done has decided go even further. Anthony Hopkins and Hannibal Lecter, it's easy to judge that character. But Silence of the Lambs doesn't work if you only care about the person that's outside of the cage.
- [32:34]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [32:36]
Lena Waithe
And that really is a writer's job, is to make you care and see about every single character that comes into frame.
- [32:47]
Reshma Sajani
How'd you learn how to do that?
- [32:50]
Lena Waithe
You know, it's interesting. I learned by watching Friends and Sex and the City and Living Single and a Different World, because, yes, there's sitcoms, but the thing that you learn very early on when you want to be a television writer, and I remember hearing Marta Kaufman and David Crane saying this, is that you cannot have two characters in the scene, in the same scene agreeing with each other, or you do not have A scene, characters in a scene cannot be in agreement. And what I love about Aaron Sorkin's voice is a lot of things, but he writes like a lawyer. He has to argue every side relentlessly. And so if I have two characters arguing about gun violence, arguing about abortion, arguing about, you know, gay marriage, I have to be able to fight both sides. Otherwise the audience is gonna sit at home and go, well, this argument's lopsided.
- [33:54]
Reshma Sajani
So interesting. My vehicle as a movement builder is a speech. I have a similar thing. I get real curious about something I can't get out of my head. I can't sleep. Like right now I'm really obsessed about gender. And I feel like, you know, like we're tricking people. Whether it's about men, women, trans. It's like the reason why boys are suffering is because women are rising. Right. And all of that is like this based on this idea that like progress is just zero sum, which I think is like the biggest con and the biggest lie. So for me, it's like, I have an idea and then I put it into a speech and that's the way that I execute. Kind of on shifting consciousness. Right. In society. But it's very judgment full.
- [34:38]
Lena Waithe
Well, I mean, here's the deal again, about acceptance, right. And accepting the reality as it is, not as we wish it to be. I accept that we live in a patriarchal society. That's not an opinion. And that's because history shows us that. Can you show us a woman president on the map?
- [34:59]
Reshma Sajani
No.
- [35:00]
Lena Waithe
Do women make less than men?
- [35:01]
Reshma Sajani
Yes.
- [35:03]
Lena Waithe
The question becomes who does the patriarchy benefit? Who wrote the rules? Were there any women in the room when they wrote the Constitution? Were there any black people in the room when they wrote the Constitution? Also, if you think about why there is such an extreme fear and an attack on people who identify as non binary.
- [35:27]
Reshma Sajani
Right. Because they're threatening the status quo.
- [35:29]
Lena Waithe
Correct. And society doesn't know where to place you. Are you a first class citizen or a second class citizen? No matter how many ways you slice it, women are second class citizens in the nation in which we live. Right. And so any person that doesn't subscribe to the binary, they do not know where to place you. We can use it just like that as an example. Sara Ramirez, who is a self identified person that is non binary. People think they don't like the character. But what they don't realize is that they've been taught to not subscribe to someone that does not subscribe to the binary.
- [36:11]
Reshma Sajani
Yep.
- [36:13]
Lena Waithe
And so what I try to do is just sort of say very calmly and plainly that a lot of our opinions and our ideas are not our own, but rather something that we've been indoctrinated since birth. Because think about toys. I was a little girl. What toys am I given, Right?
- [36:31]
Reshma Sajani
Pink ones, Barbies, but not even that.
- [36:33]
Lena Waithe
Actual baby dolls. I'll never forget. There's one in which you change the diaper. There's a poop and pee in the diaper that shows up and then you can. So as a young girl, even my own mother, to no fault of her own, is giving us dolls and babies and playhouses. We are raised to be domestic, right? And boys are given fire trucks, superheroes, sports, you know, like bats, balls. To be active, to be aggressive, to be protectors, children, toys and things like that are very important. I just watched a Pee Wee Herman documentary called Pee Wee asks himself on Max. Highly recommend it. And what's interesting is that. And I used to watch Pee Wee Herman's Playhouse as a young person.
- [37:27]
Reshma Sajani
Me too.
- [37:28]
Lena Waithe
And what now? Having perspective, not being a young kid watching it, but being a 41 year old at a documentary. Looking back, he was wearing heels, you know, he was avant garde. He was a, you know, a real performance artist. Obviously, now we know there was. There was queerness within his life and he was making art for children to say, you don't have to be what you've been told to be.
- [37:54]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [37:55]
Lena Waithe
And of course, he, of course, was almost ripped away and said, no, he's a pervert, he's a pedophile. Don't look at him, he's bad.
- [38:00]
Reshma Sajani
When they realized what he was trying.
- [38:03]
Lena Waithe
To shift and what he was really trying to say was, let kids be themselves.
- [38:08]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [38:08]
Lena Waithe
Who are children? What are they? What are their personalities? Let's not tell them who to be, but rather let them reveal themselves to us. And he, of course, becomes a pariah. Because in society, those who are the powers that be that make the rules, if you will, don't want young kids to go away from tradition. That's why that word can be scary, right? Because it used to be tradition that men would sort of sell their daughters away.
- [38:37]
Reshma Sajani
Yep, yep. I mean, where I think everything you're saying is so powerful and so true is like. And that's why we. The pendulum keeps shifting. Like, we win a battle where we move away from the binary, move away from, like, putting people in boxes, lead to what I think is the truth, which is a lot more choice, freedom, openness. And then there's too much. And then people Just swing it right back.
- [39:00]
Lena Waithe
And we're. Well, everything is cyclical. Everything is always changing, as we know. Yeah, but why does it go back?
- [39:07]
Reshma Sajani
Why does it go back?
- [39:08]
Lena Waithe
Because those in power benefit from it.
- [39:15]
Reshma Sajani
Being one or the other patriarchal.
- [39:19]
Lena Waithe
Capitalist, white leaning. Who does that benefit? Who does it like? You look at who the billionaires are, who's in power, who is president, it tells you something. I mean, here's the deal. It's like you look at who is in power, look at who is the president. Like that is. That's a majority.
- [39:39]
Reshma Sajani
Do you think those institutions, though, are like weakening? So some would argue the reason, for example, right now you have this huge kind of scream of like toxic masculinity is because it's breaking. The patriarchy's got a crack in it. What do you think about that?
- [40:00]
Lena Waithe
It's interesting. I mean, how much is it cracking when you look at who is currently president of our nation? I don't know how much is cracking because it takes more than just men to uphold the patriarchy.
- [40:14]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [40:14]
Lena Waithe
There's this really beautiful book.
- [40:16]
Reshma Sajani
By God, can you just give me your reading lesson?
- [40:20]
Lena Waithe
I will. I mean, there's a book called Sky Full of Elephants. A friend of mine, Sibo, wrote, it's his first, it's a debut novel and in which he imagines a world where whiteness no longer exists and therefore only people of color are walking around in existence. And there's an element of having to redefine who you are when you are.
- [40:46]
Reshma Sajani
Not being oppressed, when that privilege. Right. Or when you're not the oppressor, or.
- [40:50]
Lena Waithe
When you're being oppressed because there's no whiteness to be spoken of or to be seen. And it's this sort of interesting world how people are walking around because these people knew what white. There was a day where, you know, it all happened, but they now have to redefine themselves. So if you think about if women have to live in a world where men do not exist or not men per se, because then it could be seen as like anti male, but where the patriarchy doesn't exist because patriarchy is not only held up by men, then.
- [41:21]
Reshma Sajani
Who do women become and who do men become? I mean, I think that's the thing that people are struggling with.
- [41:26]
Lena Waithe
Right. And that's the thing. So it's like Baldwin has a beautiful quote that says, not everybody wants to be free, because when you have it, what are you to do with it? It's like breaking a pattern.
- [41:39]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [41:39]
Lena Waithe
And we know that there's nothing More difficult than pattern breaking.
- [41:44]
Reshma Sajani
Legacy is very important to you. Why that word? Why that frame?
- [41:51]
Lena Waithe
I think because we don't own anything. Nothing belongs to us. Yes, I have an Emmy, right? When I'm no longer Earthside, that Emmy is no longer my possession. I don't need someone to put it in my casket with me before they close it and. And bury my body. All I have is something that is not tangible, which is a legacy, which is really the work I leave behind and the way in which people may remember me.
- [42:25]
Reshma Sajani
That's a grown person's perspective on it. I mean, it's a very wise at 41 to. To really come to that. I mean, I know women right now that are 80 are still not thinking about their legacy in the way that they need to.
- [42:39]
Lena Waithe
Well, the truth is, a legacy does not belong to you either, because your legacy really can't be defined until you're gone. You really see. I mean, there are three stars that I grew up with and were very defining in my life that are no longer Earthside. Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Perry. Their legacies came into view once they were no longer here. And they have no control over those legacies.
- [43:07]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [43:07]
Lena Waithe
Literally, the people that run their families, that run their estates. That's something different because it's about how do you continue to make money off of this artist in some way? Because in essence, again, capitalist society, even when you're gone, you're still going to, you know, that off of that talent, we're going to still release music, we're still going to license it, we're still going to sell merch. But the legacy is something else. Paul Rubens, like his. His legacy because of this documentary. I was really grateful to do a documentary called Being Mary Tyler Moore in which Dr. Robert Levine trusted me with Mary's legacy. To really give people perspective, context.
- [43:54]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. And to write the story. Right.
- [43:56]
Lena Waithe
Well, she. The story had already been written. For me, it was more about helping people to see what she had done and what I loved. When people would come up to me, they would say, there were so many things I did not know about Mary Tyler Moore. All I knew was a smile and the hat being thrown up. And then they realized, oh, she was an alcoholic. She was also raised by one. Her mother was an alcoholic. She became one herself. She lost her son to an accidental suicide and then would go on to play a mother. I think it actually happened after. But she played a mother who lost a son to ordinary people, to an accidental boating accident, how life imitated art and how she had A very troublesome time on Broadway. In the beginning, the early Modern Millie did not work and they returned and she took on a role in Whose Life Is It Anyway? It was a role played by a man, one of the first people to come in and shift gender. And she won a special Tony for that performance. There were so many things that people didn't understand about her. A lot of that because I read her memoir when I was in high school called after all, because I was always been a student of television. Watching the Dick Van Dyke show and then watching the Mary Tyler Moore show and seeing how she gave us two definitions there it is about what a woman can be. She showed us what it is to be a stay at home wife and mother, and then obviously showed us a very sort of revolutionary role as a woman who was a career woman who was childless and unmarried. And to me, I would say, like, she showed the Jackie Kennedy of television. She sort of showed you the two sides of womanhood and how both were valid.
- [45:45]
Reshma Sajani
What's your advice, though, on shaping legacy? Because as you were talking, I'm thinking, you know, like, you cannot be what you cannot see. I think it is so important. Like, in my, you know, started an organization called Girls who Code, spent, you know, 10 years teaching. Half the girls we taught were black and brown, as, you know, like hidden figures. Some of the oldest women in STEM were women of color. But we didn't share those stories. We didn't tell those stories till much later. And the impact of telling those stories are so powerful on girls of color. So, like, this idea of legacy is so important, right? To preserve, to share, to tell. What can we all do to make sure that those stories are being told, that our own stories are being told, or that stories are important for other people to see themselves and what is possible are being told?
- [46:35]
Lena Waithe
Well, you know, it's interesting because I think everybody has their own path. And look, I obviously witnessed Halle Berry win an Oscar, you know, being the first black woman to ever do that. But I also am a person that continues to witness the Academy, not follow that up.
- [46:51]
Reshma Sajani
Right?
- [46:52]
Lena Waithe
So sometimes representation can be empty, and we have to be careful not to put too much value in it, because then people feel as if they've done all they needed to do.
- [47:03]
Reshma Sajani
Right. Check. It's done.
- [47:04]
Lena Waithe
Exactly. It took a while for Quinta to come after me. And then the question becomes, who follows Quinta? Which are the only two black women in that category who ever won an Emmy for Outstanding Writing in a Comedy series. And you have to think about how long the academy of television has been around and then you kind of accept the reality that we live in a white leaning society. And you can let award shows people say, well, don't put too much value in awards. Sure, no, but let it be an example and a reflection of the society in which we live.
- [47:33]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [47:33]
Lena Waithe
It's a snapshot of it.
- [47:34]
Reshma Sajani
Right. Who gets right? It's a.
- [47:36]
Lena Waithe
Like, how many black women have won the Oscar for best actress?
- [47:40]
Reshma Sajani
I mean, it's just, to me, one.
- [47:41]
Lena Waithe
And how long have the Oscars been around?
- [47:44]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [47:44]
Lena Waithe
Almost 100 years. Again, a reflection of society. That's all Hollywood has ever been, is a reflection of our society. But legacy, I think, can only be told by people that are not you. So with Legacy Talk with Lena Wade, it was really important for me to highlight women that have become invisible just because we live in a society. These women, these are black women, you know, or women of color. We've had our first two male guests on the show, Bill Duke and Robert Townsend coming up. But because we live in a white leaning society, again, I say that calmly and plainly. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Look at our string of presidents. How many, how many black ones do we have? One grateful for it. How many presidents have we had? So, and look at, you can look at who's going to be honored at Emmys. Who's going to be honored? You know, it's not a lot of predominantly black casts or Latino cast or Asian cast.
- [48:41]
Reshma Sajani
Every time you get one, then everyone gets real upset.
- [48:44]
Lena Waithe
And then because it's doing what, it's starting to break a pattern and people want to go, I mean, they, I mean, who was president after Barack Obama?
- [48:51]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [48:53]
Lena Waithe
So I say this to say with legacy. And this is a person who I do want to speak about, Suzanne DePass, who a lot of people may not know that name, but this is a woman who, she also was inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. One of the very few execs to be inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. She worked alongside, yes, she began working for, but started to work alongside Berry Gordy. She discovered Michael Jackson and the Jackson 5. She was a producer on Mahogany and she did so many things and her career, she also produced a really amazing TV movie that meant a lot to me and had a huge impact on me called Jackson 5 and American Dream. There's those two words again. A family of like many with very little money become royalty. And the youngest son that one of the youngest in the group rather becomes a lot of things. He's a child prodigy, becomes one of the greatest pop stars ever, becomes a pariah. And we need all of those stages.
- [49:52]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [49:53]
Lena Waithe
We don't get it without Suzanne DePass.
- [49:55]
Reshma Sajani
Wow.
- [49:56]
Lena Waithe
So I look forward to talking to her on Legacy Talk to hear more about her story.
- [50:00]
Reshma Sajani
I wanna. I look forward to hearing it too.
- [50:02]
Lena Waithe
And so it is honestly my responsibility. You talk about responsibility, somebody could argue, well, you have responsibilities to the people that produced you. Suzanne DePass did help produce me. Just because she didn't birth me doesn't mean that I'm not sitting here because of the work that she's done.
- [50:24]
Reshma Sajani
I want to ask you something. You are. You really value mentorship. I mean, I always said, what's the point of having power or platform if you're not going to use it for good? And I see you do that and going back to that point about expectation. But it's clear to me, you don't do it because you were supposed to. You do it because.
- [50:45]
Lena Waithe
Well, it's also what I've been taught by people in my life who have led by example. So I worked for Mara Brock Akil, who created Girlfriends and the Game and Now Forever. She did a really beautiful thing that when my time with her was up, she recommended me to Gina Prince Bythewood for me to go and be her assistant. And so I went and started working with Gina Prince Bythewood, who is the writer director of Love and Basketball. She did Woman King. She now has Children of Blood and Bone coming. And while working for Gina, I witnessed her be a mentor to others. Again, that's sort of teaching without telling. And then it came time for my time to be up with Gina, and she recommended me to a filmmaker who was making her first narrative film and she needed to some support on set. And that woman was Ava DuVernay.
- [51:39]
Reshma Sajani
Wow.
- [51:41]
Lena Waithe
So I have been taught by example how to lead in that way.
- [51:47]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [51:48]
Lena Waithe
And so I think society teaches us a lot of things. And I love, again, Baldwin says we must vomit up all the untruths that we have been taught. We've been fed.
- [51:56]
Reshma Sajani
Right. And one of those problems, people always ask me, well, why are women so? Why aren't they nice to each other? I'm like, why don't we stop saying that narrative? Because, like, right, it's. It's.
- [52:06]
Lena Waithe
I mean, here's the deal. I think it's. It's odd to say women, because there are people in the world that just happen to not be kind for reasons that.
- [52:14]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [52:14]
Lena Waithe
We have to ask them, like, how Did. Because I always also have to see everybody as 8 year olds. Imagine the meanest, most vicious, most vile person you can imagine. And then think of them as an 8 year old and know that something along their journey shifted them into this being.
- [52:33]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, hurt. People hurt. Last question. So I want to go back to where we started. I love this teaching for everyone who's listening about silence. And I think silence retreats, silence experiences. I think they're so powerful. What is the thing, as you came out of your last silence that taught you about again, going back to the stage in your life that you would want to just share with people?
- [53:03]
Lena Waithe
Oh, I mean, I think the biggest thing that came out for me was everything changes, right? I mean, everything is impermanent. Everything changes. And when you realize that, you're able to accept a little bit more, like you can say, okay, this doesn't feel really good. But. And we often say this too shall pass about things that don't feel great because we remind ourselves, well, this isn't forever. And if you think something is forever, that's a, that's an untruth. It's, it's, it that's a. Goes against nature. Nothing is forever. Not life, not a season, not a feeling. But we also remember that when something good is happening, this too shall pass. This is not forever. If you cling to the idea that it is, you will be disappointed. And the thing really is to observe, be aware and not cling or create an aversion. Don't create an aversion to something that doesn't feel great and don't cling to something that does because you will only be agitated. It's a matter of just really being present. Observe it, be aware of it. Because everything that's happening to you is for your own liberation. But I also apply that to if everything is changing. Social people. And there's a phrase that a lot of people sometimes wear as a badge of honor. Take me or leave me. And what I now know is because of the seasons change, people should too. And if someone says, take me or leave me, I'm going to leave you where you stand. Because I am always trying to evolve.
- [54:51]
Reshma Sajani
Me too.
- [54:52]
Lena Waithe
And I think a word that we often use, which I don't think we should, is saying, I'm always trying to be better. No, I'm always trying to become myself. I want to become more of who I'm meant and destined to be. And better is sort of a very cheap word because again, what is that definition? What is better? No, who are you? And the other question too is like, who do you, we talk about want? Who do you want to be?
- [55:25]
Reshma Sajani
Right?
- [55:27]
Lena Waithe
Who do you want to be? And if you want to be someone that goes against the law of nature, you have to work really hard to stay in the same place, to keep doing the same things. And we all know people, if you really sit and think, who are people that are behaving this year in the same way in which they did last.
- [55:47]
Reshma Sajani
Year with no evolution?
- [55:48]
Lena Waithe
No evolution, no growth. No growth. And we all know now evolution is real. You can deny it if you want, but it's real because you can look at, look at nature. You look at a flower that's closed. As the days go, it starts to bloom, but it can't bloom forever. It has to close again. And I think that's really such a beautiful sort of metaphor for life is that we have to open and close. The seasons will come, it'll rain. But it's almost like being mad at the rain. It's like, oh, I hate it when it rains. That's not gonna stop it from raining. So you might as well accept the fact that it's raining and know that eventually the clouds will part again.
- [56:30]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. Thank you for the gift of this conversation.
- [56:34]
Lena Waithe
Thank you for creating space for it.
- [56:49]
Reshma Sajani
My profound thanks, Alena Waith for this beautiful conversation. The seventh season of the Shy is currently airing until showtime. One last thing. Thank you so much for listening to my so called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content. Like me and Shannon Watts talking about stepping away from organizations we founded. Talk about leaving a legacy. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonade premium dot com. Thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host Reshma Sajani. Our associate producer is Isaura Asavez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltok. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oha Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing the end at Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye. Parents we know the child care crisis is not just another headline. It's a daily struggle playing out in millions of homes across this country. I'm Gloria Rivera, and this is no One Is Coming to Save Us.
- [58:57]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
This season.
- [58:57]
Reshma Sajani
We're demanding a childcare system that actually works for kids, parents and educators. We mean free birth to five, full day nearby, easy to apply. No one is coming to Save Us Season 5 from Lemonada Media out now.