Mel Robbins (4:28)

Hey. Oh, my gosh. I am so fired up to meet you. Thank you for inviting me to be here with you today.

Reshma Sajani (4:35)

I'm so excited you're here.

Mel Robbins (4:37)

Thank you for the opportunity. Congratulations on everything that you've done and how you've made a very positive and massive dent in the world.

Reshma Sajani (4:45)

Ah, well, thank you. I'm trying.

Mel Robbins (4:47)

Yes.

Reshma Sajani (4:48)

So we talk on this show a lot about midlife and what's so interesting, Mel is like. Like, for me, I was like, this doesn't feel like the best time of my life. Like, I Wish I was 20. And I assume that every. I know, I know, we'll talk about it. And everyone I've talked to has been like, no, I'm like, living my dream. So where do you stand?

Mel Robbins (5:07)

The last decade that I would ever want to return to is my 20s. I was a walking red flag. I was that jealous, toxic friend. I was the psycho girlfriend. I was. I had no idea how to manage my emotions. I had no idea that I was struggling with undiagnosed adhd, and for a long time, even untreated anxiety. And here's the thing about where I'm at now. I'm 56 years old, which I cannot believe. I am that old. But I. I guess I just feel like I've addressed a lot of the things that I didn't like about myself. And I don't know what age it hits, but you just get to a certain age where you realize, if I'm going to be happy and if I'm going to be successful, then I got to make some changes. I think the older that you get, the less Fs you give.

Reshma Sajani (6:07)

Yeah.

Mel Robbins (6:07)

And the more you realize that you have within you the ability to change things for the better.

Reshma Sajani (6:13)

Yeah. I wonder. I want to talk about your story, too, because I think it's so inspiring for a lot of people who feel like, professionally my best years are behind me. So, like, people may not know this, but you are a lawyer, a legal analyst for CNN. You actually covered the George Zimmerman trial in 2015. You owned a pottery business. So you've had an enormous amount of success, but you had a shitload of failure, too, Right? You got it. You say when you were 41, you found yourself at the rock bottom of your life. Right. You're $800,000 in debt, you're unemployed, and you are fricking stuck. Talk to me about that time of your life and paint to me a picture of what you were experiencing.

Mel Robbins (6:57)

So have you ever made a vision board?

Reshma Sajani (6:59)

Yes.

Mel Robbins (7:01)

When you've made your vision board, did you ever cut out from a magazine an image of getting divorced?

Reshma Sajani (7:08)

No.

Mel Robbins (7:09)

Or being a million dollars in the hole?

Reshma Sajani (7:15)

No.

Mel Robbins (7:16)

Or foreclosure on your house?

Reshma Sajani (7:18)

Not on my vision board.

Mel Robbins (7:20)

Yeah, that wasn't on my vision board either. And so I had different plans for my life. And when I hit the age of 41, my husband and I found ourselves living not the dream, but the nightmare. And the interesting thing is, I would wake up every morning, three kids under the age of 10, $800,000 in debt, and I felt like I had failed at life. And I found myself in this trap that so many people find themselves in in life, which is knowing what you could be doing to make things better versus being able to do those things. And if you've ever been laid off from a job, you know, you need to start looking for another job. But it's the hardest thing in the world to. To force yourself to. And I was on the verge of losing everything I cared about because I was avoiding everything that I should have been doing. And I got very lucky. Like, that's the story. I got lucky. I was watching television one night. I was drunk. I was giving myself a pep talk. I'm like, tomorrow morning, you got to find a job. Tomorrow morning, you got to be nice to your husband. Tomorrow morning, you got to get those kids on the bus. Tomorrow morning, Mel, you got to tell your parents what's going on Tomorrow morning, Got to open the bills. Tomorrow morning, when that alarm rings, you got to get your butt out of bed, and you got to get going. And all of a sudden, this rocket ship launched across the television screen. And it gave me this crazy idea. And the idea was very simple. Tomorrow, when the alarm rings, why don't you just launch yourself out of bed so fast that you're not in the bed when the anxiety and the depression pin you down?

Reshma Sajani (9:09)

So it was an actual rocket ship. Like, you're watching a rocket ship launch and an idea comes to you.

Mel Robbins (9:14)

Yeah, it was like a science. And it was probably the bourbon. I mean, it's kind of a dumb idea, honestly, if you think about it. But for whatever reason, it was a Tuesday morning in February 2008. I remembered that rocket launch that I had seen the night before. And I just started counting when the alarm rang. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And as soon as I hit one, I stood up. And it was the first time in probably six months that I had gotten out of bed when the alarm rang. And that one decision to get up when the alarm rang and to count backwards. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Changed the entire trajectory of my life.

Reshma Sajani (9:52)

So you get. You see this rock ship, you have this idea, you start practicing it, and you're like, oh, shit. Like, this is working for me. It's actually getting me to open up the bills. It's getting me to call my mother. It's getting me to stop drinking. Then what?

Mel Robbins (10:06)

Well, three years goes by. I mean, this is not a story where I'm like, oh, I should be a motivational speaker. No, this was survival, dude. Just because I got out of bed, the bills didn't get paid. Just because I got out of bed, my marriage didn't get fixed. Getting out of bed on those mornings when I didn't feel like it taught me a skill in life that everybody needs. And the skill is simple. Action changes everything. And you can do something, even in the moments when you don't feel like you can. Learning how to take action no matter how you feel, changed my life. And so three years go by. Dude, I didn't tell anybody about this, because what am I going to say? Hey, Reshma, you have problems. Count to five, your problems will be over. You're going to be like, mel, you're crazier than I thought you were. And so over the course of those three years, I would count five, four, three, two, one. A hundred times a day and one push at a time. I step back into my life, I push myself forward over and over and over and over again. And you know, it's not glamorous, it's ruling. Like everybody wants to know, how did you do it? I actually got up every day and did the boring, annoying, scary stuff that changes your life. And you know, people want to know, how'd you get on cnn? I'll tell you how. I needed a job and one of the first jobs that I applied for was a Saturday morning radio show host getting paid, get this, $25 an hour. And the show grew and grew and grew. And that got the attention a year later of WSB in Atlanta. So I then do a Sunday night call in radio show that gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Next thing you know, Cox Media is giving me an audition for a five day a week show in Orlando. Call in talking about, you know, what's going on in the world and pop culture and Hot Topics. And then George Zimmerman kills Trayvon Martin, in my opinion, murders him. And I was a former defense attorney for Legal Aid Society. And so I was all over that case. And it was my coverage of that case that then launched me onto CNN because I won the Gracie Award for my coverage of the case for outstanding news hosts. And so all of a sudden CNN's calling. So this was never the plan. It's what happened when I put my head down and kept going forward and then reminding myself every night before I would put my head on the pillow. This has to be leading me somewhere.

Reshma Sajani (12:40)

So when I think of when there, you know, I don't know if you know this, but like the biggest gender pay gap is for women over the age of 50. For the vast majority of employers, they see women above 50 and like, oh, you're done. Between menopause and you having to take care of your kids and your elderly parents, like there's no future. I'm not going to hire you, much less promote you. You are an incredible example though of someone where life actually blew up for you once.

Mel Robbins (13:05)

You hold on a second. I freaking made it blow up. Because here's the thing I need to say about this. These statistics are true, but women buy into it. Tell me More I am a when it comes to business and I'm going to tell you why. I understand my value and I will walk away and I will find a better deal. And that's the issue. And I'm going to give you a statistic that I know that you're aware of that everybody needs to hear. If a man or a woman get fired from a job, a very interesting thing happens. Most men when they get fired for a job, go f you. I didn't like the job anyway. And they do not personalize getting laid off. Yes, it may bruise your ego, but when men get back into the workforce after getting laid off, they experience zero drop in income. Women, there is documented research and you probably know the statistic, but it's like 25% pay cut on average is what a woman accepts just to get back in after she's. Just to get back in.

Reshma Sajani (14:12)

Just to get back in.

Mel Robbins (14:12)

We do that to ourselves. That does not mean that bias isn't real. That does not mean that discrimination in the pay grab isn't real. What I am here to say is that you have more power than you think. That there are jobs and there are employers out there that actually will pay you what you're worth. But you have to decide what you're worth. And if you're looking at employers to give that to you, you're also always going to be giving the power to employ. You have to believe in yourself, yourself. And you have to see the worth in yourself to know to demand it.

Reshma Sajani (14:48)

I am also a ball buster. I hustle my ass off. But I did find myself in my 40s, you know, I have young kids, right? Four and nine, just tired and with the perimenopause and like I'm itching, I'm not sleeping, like I'm exhausted. And so I definitely felt like for me I vacillated between should ambitious Rushman just take a fucking long ass nap and all the things that I wanted to do. And I think a lot of our listeners are in that place, right, where because of kind of what's happening in life, you're just like you. Part of you wants to slow down and part of you wants to shoot for the moon. What's your advice for them?

Mel Robbins (15:29)

I think it's a deeply personal thing. I really do. Because you cannot have the ambition of becoming a gajillionaire and also expect to be there every second for your kids. There's always going to be a trade off and it's about boundaries. I mean I made a decision out of Survival mode when I was 41, that I was gonna do whatever I needed to to save the house, to make money, to put groceries on the table and gas in the tank, to pay our bills. Because I all of a sudden realized I can't just rely on my husband to do this. And as I started to work two, three jobs and I started chipping away at the bills, I discovered, wait a minute. I love business. I'm super ambitious, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I'm not gonna look at anybody else on the planet to buy me a purse or to buy me a ring or. Or to buy me a car or a house, or to build the beach house or to take the kids to Disney. I'm going to provide that myself because I love being ambitious. I love building things. I love the art of making money. And so my husband and I went through this huge role reversal where he became the stay at home parent. He was the one that was what we call the first call parent, meaning who's the first parent that gets called when the school calls. And it wasn't easy. If you decide to do that in a traditional heterosexual relationship because of societal pressure on men, you're going to start to feel some conflict toward your partner, and your partner's going to start to feel a little bit of conflict internally because they're going to feel like they're not providing. So we had to work through that. But our family and the foundation for our family was held together because my husband stayed home as my business started to take off. Now, here's the rubber. I missed my daughter's entire high school career. Missed it all. I was the parent on the sideline, on the phone. I was the one that was away all the time. I never made a parent teacher conference. I literally was that person. And I'll tell you something, I would never, ever change a thing.

Reshma Sajani (17:51)

You would miss it again.

Mel Robbins (17:52)

I would miss it again.

Reshma Sajani (17:53)

I have a girlfriend who was going on a girls trip and her daughter was like, no, no, no, no, no. I have a big thing at school. I need you to stay in it. And she looked at her and she's like, I'm gonna go. Because you need to know that it's okay for me to put myself before you for mothers, you know, And I think it's such a point lesson. Let me ask you something. During this time, though, did you feel guilt or judgment from others? And how did you manage that? Because I think a lot of women want to go do the thing. Don't feel like they need to be at the parent teacher conference. But they feel a shitload of guilt.

Mel Robbins (18:23)

Well, I did in the beginning, but not from other people. Like guilt doesn't. Nobody can make you feel guilty. You do that to yourself. And the thing to understand about guilt is that there's two kinds of guilt. There's the kind of guilt that's very destructive based on research, which is when you use the shoulds to just bash yourself with a sledgehammer. And then there's the second type of guilt, which is informative. It's the kind of guilt that's tied to your values that is signaling an alarm that you're starting to now live your life in a way that is inconsistent with what you deeply value. I'm going to address both. So I had the destructive type of guilt in the beginning of my career because I was always gone in the very beginning when I started to get hired as a motivational speaker to teach people about the five second rule on corporate stages around the world. And I remember going on this 24 city tour that we had created for JPMorgan Chase and I couldn't believe this was happening. I mean, I was starting to make more money than I thought was possible. And when I landed this tour, it was like the first big thing that I was doing and the money was really consistent and I was going to pay off literally our home equity line with the thing. But I started to just feel so guilty and I didn't understand why, because my highest value at the moment was safety. How do I pay these bills off and make my family safe and stable so that we're not like, we get these liens off the house? Because I knew what I was doing was the right thing to be doing and I knew why I was doing it. I know it was deeply tied to taking care of my children and my husband and my family. So it was very values driven is I started instead of saying to my kids, I miss you, I'm sorry, I'm leaving, I started saying, thank you. Thank you for supporting me. Thank you for being okay with me being gone this week. Thank you for cheering for me. And I'm going to tell you something, it flipped the whole thing, not saying I'm going to miss you. It actually empowered my kids because by thanking them, they were a part of the success and nobody felt bad. So whether you're working the night shift at a hospital or you're having to go to a different city for your work, thank. Thank your family for supporting you.

Reshma Sajani (20:50)

That's a great piece of advice.

Mel Robbins (20:51)

The second thing that happened though is that, you know, I really love what I do. But as my son was in middle school, I started having this aching feeling that I don't want to miss this high school. And the reason why, again, goes back to the deeper teaching about values that my value, my highest value, had shifted from safety to connection and to being present and to enjoying the time and the space that I had created through the hard work of the last decade. And so I made some big changes using boundaries.

Reshma Sajani (21:38)

Foreign with the start of every new year, talk of resolution starts to creep into our lives. Goals are healthy, but more often than not, well intentioned resolutions can lead to frustration and anxiety. This year I recommend trying a new approach with calm Focus on growth instead of rigid goals. In just a week, you can build a strong foundation for 2025 and gain confidence along the way. Calm is the number one app for sleep and meditation, giving you the power to calm your mind and change your life. Everyone faces unique challenges in their daily lives, and mental health isn't about a cookie cutter approach. That's why CALM offers a wide range of content and programs to help you navigate life's ups and downs, including meditations of all kinds, sleep stories or calming music to help you fall asleep naturally, grounding exercises for moments when you feel really overwhelmed, and expert LED sessions to improve confidence, care for your relationships, and more. I love that CALM puts the tools you need right in your pocket and can help you dedicate just a few minutes each day to live a happier, healthier life. Anytime I use one of their sleep stories with my 4 year old next to me, he falls asleep immediately and makes bedtime so much easier. Stress less, sleep more, and live better with Calm. For listeners of our show, Calm is offering an exclusive offer of 40% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com midlife Go to C-A-L-M.com midlife for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library. That's calm.com midlife. I love Valentine's Day. It's an opportunity to show the people I love most in my life just how much they mean to me. And this year I'm giving the gift of Cozy with Cozy Earth. And I'm starting by browsing through Cozy Earth's men's collection. They have pajamas, polos, joggers, hats and more. Their ultra soft bamboo jogger pants have all the coziness of pajamas woven into a stylish silhouette you can wear just about anywhere. Featuring a zippered back pocket, these tall men's Joggers will be your softest all season staple wardrobe, whether you're staying in or stepping out. Then as long as I'm shopping, I think I'll pick up a new pair of pajamas for myself. Cozy Earth's bamboo pajama set is crafted with a soft stretch knit that features enhanced breathability that sleeps degrees cooler than cotton to keep your temperature just right through the night. Surprise your valentine with cozy earth. Get 40% off@cozyearth.com midlife with my code midlife. And don't forget, if you're asked in a post purchase survey, let them know you heard about Cozy Earth right here. They deserve this. Elevate your love with Cozy Earth. I want to ask you about your creative process because I'll tell you how I see it. From my perspective, it's pretty amazing. Like with, you know, the Five Second World, you're sitting on tv, you're watching a rocket, and you come up with something that works for you. You practice it and then you do it with Let them. You're at your son's prom, right? All this chaos, you're trying to fix everything and your daughter's like, just let them. And like, light bulb goes off. So tell me. And all these teachings are so relatable and easy to put into practice. I mean, I was using Let Them yesterday. You know what I mean? With what? Or this morning there's a demolition going on outside and I like, let them just demolish in the middle of my very important podcast with Mel Robbins, right?

Mel Robbins (25:23)

I think that women in particular are so obsessed with getting it right or getting it perfect that we stop ourselves from actually doing the thing. And for a long time I was obsessed with being smart. I thought if I write a book that Malcolm Gladwell thinks is good, I've made it. If I stand on a stage and the CEO or the such and such thinks I'm smart, I've made it. And at some point I realized I don't want to be a thought leader who's smart. I want to be somebody who really is useful and makes an impact in people's lives. And this obsession in our world with being the smartest or being the this or being the that robs you from the impact that you can make. Because when I first wrote the Five Second Rulebook, it was horrible because I was writing it so that Malcolm Gladwell would like it, right? And one of the funny things about my success is that I have literally been shunned by most of the kind of established thought leadership never invited on the Big podcasts, never written about by anybody in the media, poo pooed because I don't have a fucking master's degree. But so here's the thing. Feeling shunned and feeling looked down on made me realize the power of just actually focusing on normal life and on the average person's life. And if you're too fancy or you're too intellectual, it will actually not make a difference in the life of somebody who is doing the best that they can to get through a 12 hour shift at a hospital and then get home and pick up the kids. Like, advice only works if you can use it. And so I've become obsessed with finding simple ways to explain the things that we already know work because there is no new advice. And so for me, back to my creative process. I'm not actively looking for anything. I'm like everybody else. I'm running a business. I have three adult children. I've been married for 28 years and I'd like to stay married. And so I focus on the things that my friends are talking about that my kids are talking about. You know, I never thought when my daughter said let them, it would be anything. I just noticed it in the moment. And then I noticed the next day that anytime I was annoyed or frustrated, I just started to.

Reshma Sajani (28:04)

That it worked for you. That's for me. Like, I launch. Like, I come up with things when I notice, like my girls and like the negative self talk, right? That's where brave, not perfect came from. That's why midlife came from. Like, is every time I see women do that, I'm like, what's the con here? Like, what are we being tricked to do? I think the other powerful thing that you said, it reminds me, you know, when I first ran for Congress, I was obsessed with giving the perfect speech from the perspective of a woman. I mean, like, who's the woman version of Obama, right? That can just. Or JFK. And I would literally go on YouTube and just search and search and search and I would write my speech, I would memorize it, I'd put it in my back pocket, and then I would just deliver it. And it always fell flat because I wasn't. Because I wanted to sound smart. You know, I grew up in Schaumburg, Illinois. Nobody went to like, Harvard and Yale. I went to a state school. I always felt like I didn't belong, right? That I was a fraud in many of the spaces. And I think as I started becoming an activist and I knew that the gift I had been given was my Ability to communicate. I wanted to sound smart. And the opposite effect happened, was that I didn't connect with anybody.

Mel Robbins (29:21)

Correct.

Reshma Sajani (29:21)

And now I never speak that way. I just have a couple bullets. I think I know what I want to say, and I just talk. And it has changed the game for me. And that's. I love that. The point you're making, because I think that's for all the women that are listening right now, like, don't try to be smart. Just fucking be you.

Mel Robbins (29:39)

Well, you're already smart. See, the thing. You don't have to be anything because you're already that. And here's the trick that I use. So before any meeting, before any interview, before any business pitch, before anything, ask yourself, what do I want people to say about me when I leave the room? What are the two or three words, oh, she's so whatever. Fill in the blank. And whatever it is that you want them to say, your job is to walk in the room and be that person, because that gives you the roadmap.

Reshma Sajani (30:17)

I want to put the theory into practice. Two situations. One, my favorite, my mother. Okay, so you have this chapter six, right, Is so powerful. It's about how to love difficult people, right? Which is our navigating family. And I want to talk about my mom, okay? So my mom really knows how to get under my skin, and I fall for it every time, right?

Mel Robbins (30:37)

Now, hold on a second. That sentence right there is bad. It's not that it's bad. I want to examine it. My mother knows how to get under my skin. Does she? Or is your mother just being your mother and you let her get under your skin? Because your mother around me would not get under my skin. Your mother's just being your mother.

Reshma Sajani (31:01)

She'll say to me, oh, you look a little fat. Let's go up and get on the scale. Let her, and I will follow her and do it. And then I'll bet you that.

Mel Robbins (31:10)

But. But hold on.

Reshma Sajani (31:11)

That's what I'm saying. Put the theory into place. So what am I supposed to do, Mom?

Mel Robbins (31:14)

I'm not getting on the scale. What is she gonna say?

Reshma Sajani (31:18)

Probably nothing.

Mel Robbins (31:19)

Mom. Are you trying to make me feel bad? Okay, mom, would you say that again? You think I'm fat and you want me to get on the scale. See, when you stop her and question it, like you're gonna let her. Because whatever falls out of your mother's.

Reshma Sajani (31:36)

Side, this is letting her.

Mel Robbins (31:39)

Yeah, of course. Of course. Let her. Let her say what she wants.

Reshma Sajani (31:43)

Now, how do I. Let me.

Mel Robbins (31:44)

Well, what do you want to do about it?

Reshma Sajani (31:47)

I want it to not. So typically when that happens, it upends our time. I'll get on a flight and I'll go home early.

Mel Robbins (31:53)

Or do you actually get on the scale?

Reshma Sajani (31:56)

I do, Mel.

Mel Robbins (31:58)

See, this is your mother's not the problem. You are.

Reshma Sajani (32:01)

Okay?

Mel Robbins (32:03)

Because you're actually participating in this and then blaming your mother as if you don't have agency.

Reshma Sajani (32:10)

And why am I participating in it?

Mel Robbins (32:12)

That's for your therapist. I have no idea, though. And when you say, let her, let her say anything about your weight. Let her say anything she wants about how much you work. Let her make comments about the fact that you don't see your kids as much as she thinks that you should. And she worries about it because your mother is allowed to have her emotions. She's allowed to worry about you. She's allowed to think you're fat. She's allowed to ask you to get on the scale. She is her own person. Let her. But you have forgotten that in the mother daughter relationship, you still have control. See, your relationship with your mother is not her responsibility. It's yours. And if you want it to change, stop looking at her and stop trying to change her. Because as you know in the book, you cannot change other people. You want to change your relationship, you got to change yourself. And so it's time for you to start acting like an adult. It's time for you to do the Let me part. Let me focus on the three things I can control here. Number one, I can control what I choose to think about this. Number two, I get to control what I do or don't do. You control whether you go on that scale. You control whether or not you placate her. And what I would recommend is that you consider using a technique where when she says this to you, you pause and you go, would you say that again? And then you pause and you go, are you trying to make me feel bad? Because when you stop somebody and make them say something that is actually hurtful, they're typically, why, I didn't mean it that way.

Reshma Sajani (33:46)

Right?

Mel Robbins (33:47)

Or you can say, mom, I'm not getting on the scale. I'm not eight anymore. Stop asking.

Reshma Sajani (33:52)

I like that. I like that asking. Will you say that again? Because I think she. I think she's worried. You know, everybody has diabetes in my family. She's, you know, she. I think she's genuinely right.

Mel Robbins (34:04)

Like, let her be worried.

Reshma Sajani (34:05)

Let her be worried.

Mel Robbins (34:06)

The thing that you're missing is you have the power. This is only, like, think about a Seesaw, right? As long as you're on the seesaw, it's going to go up and down. But if you get off this and you're just like, I'm not getting on the scale and don't ask me again, right? And then she said, let her, let her act like an eight year old child.

Reshma Sajani (34:26)

Second example, friendships.

Mel Robbins (34:27)

Okay.

Reshma Sajani (34:28)

So I was recently looking at my wedding photos and I came upon a picture of my bridesmaids and it made me a little sad because I'm not as close to all them. You write also about this in your book. You call it the great scattering and that friendships change. I think that one of the things that let them taught me is this point that, like, relationships have seasons and sometimes they end and sometimes they're hibernating and that's okay. How do I use let them to help me kind of master adult relationships?

Mel Robbins (35:03)

It's a terrific example. And step one is you say, let them, let them come in and out of your life. This whole notion that we're supposed to have best friends forever is complete bullshit. People change, they grow. There are three pillars to adult friendship. Okay. The first one is proximity. If you look at your bridesmaids, how many of them actually live a block from you now?

Reshma Sajani (35:26)

Very few.

Mel Robbins (35:27)

Correct. So it is normal and natural and appropriate that you would grow distant from people that you don't see all the time. And the reason why is there's a lot of research around the fact that in order to stay close friends with somebody, you have to spend a certain amount of time together. Second pillar, once you've got face to face and proximity and seeing each other, the next thing is the timing of your life. You mentioned that you have a nine year old and a four year old. How many of your bridesmaids actually have children the same age?

Reshma Sajani (36:00)

Only one.

Mel Robbins (36:01)

There you go. You're in very different times of life, which means there's less that you're going to connect on because the patterns in your life has changed. So the patterns of your friendship have changed. And the third is energy. And energy is about what you're focused on. If you're super ambitious and you're into podcasting and you're doing all kinds of stuff and they're not, the energy is going to change. And so here's the mistake we make. When a friendship fades naturally, which is supposed to, by the way, we think it's personal.

Reshma Sajani (36:35)

That's right.

Mel Robbins (36:36)

When it's one of these three pillars, proximity has changed, the timing of your life has changed, or the energy has Shifted in some way. And here's where adult friendship, we all get it wrong. We now think we're not friends. That's completely not true. If you were to pick up the phone and call any one of those women, I guarantee you it would pick right back up. If they moved into the apartment across the hall from you, you'd be best friends again.

Reshma Sajani (37:00)

Again. That's right.

Mel Robbins (37:01)

So they're not gone. They're still there. And here's the let them part. Let them. Let them be in different times. Let them move away. Let the energy come and go because it means you're both changing, which is a beaut. And let them know that you're still cheering for them. Then comes the let me part. This is where the power is. Let me decide. What do I actually want here? Do I want to be in touch with these people? Do I want to just be grateful that they were my friends at that moment in my life and they showed up for me? Do I want to rekindle something? And if that's the case, make the fucking effort, stop sitting around looking at old photos and actually send somebody a text. And one of the practices that I have that has changed friendship for me is every single morning I have a. You know, I print out my contacts, so I just have them by my computer. Every single morning, I just send a text to somebody on my contact list. It's like, hey, I'm thinking about you and I'm gonna be in la, blah, blah, blah. Do you wanna have dinner? And you propose a time.

Reshma Sajani (38:03)

And proposing the time is like, you basically make that commitment. Don't send some, like, kind of bs, like, let's hang out and it's not really genuine.

Mel Robbins (38:10)

And look, here's the thing. Don't say, I wanna see you. And don't propose a time. Say, I want to see you. How about here? And if they don't respond, let them. If you don't ever get together, let them. And if you don't want to get together, don't say, I want to see you. Just say, I was just thinking about you. I want you to know I'm always cheering for you and sending you great vibes. And I'm here if you ever need me. You don't need to text back. Boom.

Reshma Sajani (38:46)

This show is sponsored by Thrive Market. I don't know about you, but we've had our household dominated by sweets this holiday season. Finding snacks that satisfy your kids that aren't holiday candy leftovers isn't exactly easy. That's why I'm so grateful for Thrive Market. They make it simple to find healthier kid approved swaps for all those sugary junk filled favorites. One of my favorite features is the Healthy Swap Scanner in the Thrive Market app. It's a total game changer. I just scan a product my son loves like his favorite chips or crackers and the app shows me cleaner, healthier alternatives. We've made some great swaps. We've been loving the Annie's Mac and Cheese and we've replaced the Salty Store crackers for Simple Mills crackers. We love them and I feel good knowing we're eating something nutritious. Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding safe, healthy food. All their products are 100% non GMO and free from over 1000 harmful ingredients. The best part? Everything gets delivered straight to my door so I don't have to stress about searching grocery aisles or reading tiny ingredient lists. Ready for a junk free start to 2025? Head to thrivemarket.com midlife and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T H R I V E market.com midlife thrivemarket.com midlife when was the last time you listened to your gut? In the new year? There's a lot of misleading information floating around about food and weight loss. Did you know there's a lot of misleading information about ultra processed foods trying to frame them as healthy. That's why now is the best time to look into Zoe. Backed by one of the world's largest microbiome databases and most scientifically advanced at home gut health tests, Zoe gives you proven science whenever you need it. Your Zoe membership starts by testing your gut health and making smart food choices. From there, Zoe is science led and proven to work in a randomized controlled trial. Trust your gut. Trust Zoe. Go to Zoe.com to find out what Zoe membership could do for you. And because you listen to my so called Midlife, you can use the exclusive code ZOE20 to get 10% off membership. As a Zoe member, you get an at home test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your gut. That's z o e.com use Zoe20 at checkout. Okay, so I really want to talk about the ABC loop because I was obsessed with it.

Mel Robbins (41:35)

Okay.

Reshma Sajani (41:35)

And for me, like, you know, I'm married to my husband. You drive me nuts sometimes, right? We get into arguments about the basic things like why didn't you take out the garbage? We've talked about this a million times. We've been married for 15 years you never make the frickin bed. Right. And it's like, or wake up in the morning and so talk to me about what the ABC loop is and how it can help me.

Mel Robbins (41:55)

Yes. Plus your dog's super cute. I think she wants you to pick her up.

Reshma Sajani (42:02)

I just got a bernadoodle and I told my husband like go take her out. And she's like, she's eight months old and she is like my shadow and like if I'm not touching her, she's out of proximity. She thinks like the world is ending.

Mel Robbins (42:12)

Oh well, we all want a puppy now. So the ABC loop is very simple. Number one, you will never change another human being. Number two, if you're anything like me, for the first 54 years of my life, I was working against the fundamental laws of motivation. And here's the thing, you can't motivate another person. It's impossible. I tried. Anytime you worry about somebody, or you tell them what to do, or you try to motivate them, you don't actually motivate them, you create resistance to the change. Every human being has a fundamental hardwired need to be in control of themselves. Their decisions, their environment, what they eat, what they're doing, their future, their money, their careers. And here's the problem. If somebody else's behavior, like your husband's behavior and him not taking out the trash, if his behavior bothers you, he's now making you feel like you're out of control. And then you and I make a fundamental mistake. We step across a line and we try to control them. And now when you go to try to control your husband, it's now bumping up against his need to be in control of himself. Which is why he's like fuck you, I'm not taking the garbage out. Or he'll take it out once and then never do it again because.

Reshma Sajani (43:32)

Or I'll take it out when I want to, not when you want me to, which is exactly at 8pm Exactly.

Mel Robbins (43:36)

Because I'm not a child and you're not gonna boss me around like my mother, like we're partners, you're not my parent. So the ABC loop is a way to use science. This comes from Harvard trained psychiatrist, Dr. K. He goes by the Healthy Gamer. He's phenomenal. And it is a simple way to apply all of this incredible science around what's called motivational interviewing. So you're going to use the ABC loop. A stands for apologize and ask open ended questions. So you're going to go to your Husband, you're going to say, hey, I need to apologize. I've been a real bitch about the garbage. I am so sorry. And I've realized I've never actually asked you how you feel about it or what you want to do about it. And when you ask them how they want to handle it, you're going to find out they've probably thought about it or they have some ideas. You know, one of the ways that I've used this is with our adult kids. Our son was very unmotivated in high school and I would stomp up the stairs and then yell at him for getting off the Xbox, you know, and start studying. As if he doesn't know that playing Xbox isn't going to help him with school. The reason why he's avoiding studying is it's very hard for him. And one thing that we forget as parents is who's the hardest working kid in a classroom?

Reshma Sajani (45:06)

The one that's struggling.

Mel Robbins (45:07)

Bingo. Who's the hardest working friend of yours with their health? It's not the one going to the gym every day. Right. It's the one who's overweight because they know they're not thriving. The friction that somebody is feeling when they're stuck is unbelievable. And then we come marching in as if we know, you know, like, oh. As if they've never thought that exercising would help their health. And thanks a lot, Einstein. What do you think? I'm a moron? And so we're approaching these situations wrong. And so when I finally apologized to my son and then said, I've never stopped to ask you how you feel about school. And he's like, fine. The most important thing when you ask open ended questions is don't worry about what they say because what they say doesn't matter. The asking open ended question stirs up that internal friction which they need because the friction becomes the source of their motivation. And so then I say, okay, well, what makes you feel fine about it, honey? I don't know. Well, okay, I understand that you don't know. Have you thought about what you might want to do about school? And that's the hundred million dollar question that comes from Dr. Stuart Ablon at Mass General Brigham. No parent actually gives their kids agency and kids know what they want to do. They've never been asked. And so what happens is these open ended questions reveal this tension that the person feels between where they are and actually where they'd like to be. And now you're building a bridge instead of building a wall between the two of you. And then comes B, you gotta be back off. And the reason why you have to back off is because you have to create enough space and distance so that the person feels in control, that it's their idea to change.

Reshma Sajani (47:12)

You know, it's interesting, as I read your book and we've talked today, it feels like fundamentally so much of this is about control.

Mel Robbins (47:19)

Oh, 100%. This is ultimately a book about power and control and freedom.

Reshma Sajani (47:24)

That's right.

Mel Robbins (47:25)

And that you and I and every human being on the planet have been trying to control things we can't control. And number one on the list is other people. Trying to control what another person thinks, does, feels or says only makes you feel more anxious. That's not where your power is.

Reshma Sajani (47:42)

I love that last thing. What are you still working on in midlife?

Mel Robbins (47:48)

Just being a little bit more present. Like I. My story of success, like so many came out of survival that I have been. Go, go, go. Yes, yes, yes. What's the next thing? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? Because, you know, if you've ever experienced that kind of financial struggle, there's a certain crushing anxiety that comes with it. And so for me, I've achieved enough. I would like to enjoy it. I don't want to do more. I want to really, for the first time in my life, just focus on what's right in front of me instead of jumping to the next thing.

Reshma Sajani (48:37)

I love it. Well, Mel, thank you so much. This was so powerful.

Mel Robbins (48:42)

Thank you for inviting me on. I was so excited to receive the invitation to have a conversation. Conversation with you. Bye.

Reshma Sajani (49:03)

Mel Robbins is a New York Times best selling author, a podcast host and an entrepreneur. She hosts the Mel Robbins show which you can listen to wherever you're listening right now. Now, if you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium, you should really check it out. You can get access to premium content like extras from my conversation last week with Sahaj Khar Kohli. Thank you midlifers for listening to this show. You are really blowing it up and really driving the conversation about midlife in the entire country. We'll be back next week. See you then. I'm your host, Reshma Sajani. Our producer is Claire Jones. Our associate producer is Isara Acevez. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Our senior supervising producer is Kristen Lepore and our senior producer is Kristin. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team Oja Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how your doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye.

Mel Robbins (50:56)

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.

Leisha Haley (51:27)

Hi, I'm Leisha Haley.

Kate Manig (51:29)

And I'm Kate Manig.

Leisha Haley (51:30)

20 years ago we met playing best friends on the set of the TV show the L Word, which quickly morphed into us being actual best friends for the rest of our lives.

Kate Manig (51:39)

Truly, it feels like we're an old married couple, but with fewer cats, although we each have a number of cats in our lives and we're pretty much inseparable and have more or less zero boundaries.

Leisha Haley (51:48)

Hence why we named our podcast Pants, because at this point you can't have one leg without the other.

Kate Manig (51:54)

And each week we catch up with each other on the big and small things going on in our lives, which then leads to much oversharing and little left to the imagination. Whether it's sex or therapy or money fears, literally nothing is off the table in terms of discussion topics.

Leisha Haley (52:07)

Oh, and we also like to talk about that wild ride that was the L Word, you know, the genesis of our friendship.

Kate Manig (52:14)

And Pants is out now. Wherever you get your podcasts from Lemonada Media.