Breaking Up with American Patriarchy with Anna Malaika Tubbs

Summary

Podcast Summary: My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani

Episode: Breaking Up with American Patriarchy with Anna Malaika Tubbs
Date: September 10, 2025
Host: Reshma Saujani (A)
Guest: Anna Malaika Tubbs (B)

---

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the origins and effects of American patriarchy, gender roles in family life, and strategies to challenge entrenched systems. Host Reshma Saujani talks with author and scholar Anna Malaika Tubbs about what American patriarchy has erased from history, how this shapes women’s and men’s lives today, and what it means to navigate and resist these structures—both personally and collectively.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Reflecting on Life and Midlife (06:18–09:00)

• Personal reflection as a ritual:
  Anna reflects deeply on her life every birthday, evaluating her spirituality, personal growth, family, and career:

  “I always reflect on where I am, what it is that I want in my life, how do I feel about these different categories of my life... I'm really grateful. I'm proud and I'm hungry for more.” (B, 07:06)

• Reshma considers adopting this birthday tradition, realizing summer offers better space for creativity and reset than New Year’s.

  “The summer is really, it [is] a better time to do your life KPIs. I might have to switch that around.” (A, 08:26)

2. How Do Women ‘Do It All’? Privilege, Village, and Honesty (08:50–11:49)

• The loaded question of ‘how do you do it?’
  Anna addresses why women often face the question and reframes it as a call for transparency and solidarity:

  “It’s a question in the US because it truly is every person for themselves here.” (B, 09:22)

• Acknowledging help and privilege:
  Anna credits her ability to balance career and family to a supportive partner, extended family, and paid help:

  “I thank [my nanny] in my acknowledgement section of my book after...my parents. She is so incredibly important.” (B, 09:48)

• Open communication and ‘feedback’ in marriage:
  Anna and her husband maintain growth through intentional communication—even if imperfect:

  “I give Michael a lot of feedback, and I always say, ‘hey, are you in a space where you're ready to receive some feedback?’” (B, 10:58)

3. Ambition, Gender Roles, and the Default Parent Trap (11:52–18:16)

• Navigating ambition in double-career partnerships:
  Reshma shares the emotional complexities of co-parenting with another ambitious partner and feeling more herself when away from kids.
• Default parenting and ongoing negotiations:
  Anna describes how, despite awareness and intent, she still finds herself in the “default parent” role:

  “Even though we had so many conversations about it, it still happened… It’s a constant conversation of me explaining to Michael, hey, I’m holding all of these cards...” (B, 13:10)

• Generational change and reasonable expectations:
  Anna and Reshma discuss the slow pace of change—acknowledging today’s fathers do more, but expectations must still stretch further:

  “It’s real generational change and I acknowledge that and that’s amazing. But I also say... I’m here to tell you what I need. I’m your partner, so don’t worry about all the rest.” (B, 17:45)

4. Parenting Boys and Breaking Cycles (16:03–18:16)

• Teaching boys care as an honorable role:
  Reshma and Anna discuss consciously raising sons to share domestic and emotional labor:

  “It’s really just ingraining at the youngest of possible ages that, like, caregiving is your job and your role.” (A, 16:22) “You’re not robbing boys of anything by explaining to them that what they do impacts others... All of those messages are only helping them to be better human beings.” (B, 16:38)

5. The “Three Mothers” and the Power of Maternal Histories (25:28–34:41)

• Humanizing icons through mothers’ stories:
  Anna’s first book uncovers the erased histories of the mothers of MLK Jr., Malcolm X, and James Baldwin. She wanted readers to unlearn the myth of the “self-made man”:

  “I wanted them to unlearn the notion that any man is self-made, that anyone sort of pops out of nowhere without any history behind them.” (B, 25:46)

• Radical mothers as activists:
  For example, Malcolm X’s mother, Louise, spent 25 years in an institution for her activism—her experience shaped Malcolm as much as any paternal influence.
• Tenets of Black motherhood:
  Anna outlines four key tenets connecting these mothers, emphasizing preparation for oppression yet affirming hope, the imperative to participate in change, and the insistence on joy and humanity:

  “They weren’t trying to raise children to be icons… They were raising children to live, to thrive, to dream.” (B, 34:41)

6. Patriarchy: Foundations and Ongoing Impacts (41:29–50:27)

• Intentional foundations of American patriarchy:
  Anna debunks the myth that founders ‘just reflected their times’; rather, they actively chose which gender roles to enshrine:

  “They purposely are building a nation for men.... And they don’t include women at all in the Constitution.” (B, 42:24) Anna notes the gender binary was weaponized to undermine many—including poor whites, Black women, and others who didn’t fit prescribed ‘citizenship’ or gender categories.

• Repercussions today:
  The team draws a direct line from these historical choices to ongoing struggles with reproductive rights, the backlash against gender inclusivity, and vulnerability to traditionalism during social change:

  “It’s written into everything in our nation. It’s written into every system. It’s written into even laws that are no longer in place. We’re still seeing the effects of them play out.” (B, 47:44)

7. How to Break Up with Patriarchy: Practical Steps (52:03–56:16)

• Personal mindset shifts:
  Anna explains the importance of examining your own beliefs about power, value, and domination:

  “There does have to be some work done around: Why do I either feel that in order to be recognized and to have value in this nation, I have to control other people...?” (B, 52:15)

• Re-writing relationships and community:
  Evaluate how you might replicate patriarchy in your relationships, marriages, or as a parent—strive for equitable models of care and connection.
• Building alternatives and voting:
  She stresses that community-driven models (like cooperative childcare) can challenge entrenched norms, and that democracy isn’t a zero-sum gender game:

  “The opposite of American patriarchy is not a nation where women have control and power over men... It’s a nation where we each have power... We haven’t ever truly seen what American democracy could be, because… we weren’t all seen as people.” (B, 54:54)

8. Endings: Hope and the Final Breath of Patriarchy (56:16–58:03)

• Is patriarchy dying?
  Anna expresses cautious hope:

  “I agree completely. I think it’s kind of flailing... Nobody is doing well in this current system.” (B, 56:16)

• Patriarchy doesn’t serve men either:
  Reshma notes, “In some ways, I think a patriarchy doesn’t serve men more than it doesn’t serve women.” (A, 57:30)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On maternal history:
  “I wanted them to unlearn the notion that any man is self-made.” (B, 25:46)
• On the founding fathers’ choices:
  “The gender binary is so critical to American patriarchy. Everything hinges on the fact that you can only be man or woman in the United States.” (B, 41:46)
• On daily resistance:
  “You need to speak up in your everyday life... At the end of the book, you offer some real solutions on how we break up with patriarchy.” (A, 52:03)
• On hope:
  “We need to do that full assessment of our lives... so that we can finally let go of [patriarchy] and realize that it didn’t serve any of us.” (B, 56:16)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Reflections on midlife and family – 06:18–09:00
• How do you do it all? (Privileges, village, feedback) – 08:50–11:49
• Labor division, ambition, and the default parent trap – 11:52–18:16
• Parenting boys to break cycles – 16:03–18:16
• The Three Mothers—maternal histories and Black motherhood – 25:28–34:41
• Origins and mechanisms of American patriarchy – 41:29–50:27
• Breaking up with patriarchy: action steps – 52:03–56:16
• Hope for change and why patriarchy fails everyone – 56:16–58:03

---

Flow and Takeaways

This episode weaves together the personal and political. From birthday reflections to the daily logistics of ambitious, caregiving women, Anna Malaika Tubbs and Reshma Saujani ground abstract systems in lived experience. They name the burdens of patriarchy but also highlight strategies—internal, relational, communal, and political—to resist and reshape systems. There is hope here: an insistence that “it’s all made up, we can make up something else… and we must.”

Transcript

[A]

Armoire makes getting dressed easy With a clothing rental membership from Armoire, build the perfect wardrobe with brands that are high quality, unique, and recommended just for you. All you have to do is take a five minute style quiz and select items from your dynamic personalized closet. The styles show up at your door in as little as two days. Then when you're ready for new clothes, just swap them out for more new to you styles. I never have time to just go shopping or change my wardrobe every season, and I found myself uninspired by my closet day after day, which is why I'm happy I found Armoire. I could easily change my wardrobe without taking extra time off my schedule and be pleasantly surprised by their styling choices. I always feel like I have something new and exciting to wear. Armoire allows you to rent high quality designer clothing for every occasion and then send it back. Whether you're planning your outfit for a date night, packing for a conference, or in need of a gown for a black tie event, you will be the best dressed person in the room without ever having to brave a fitting room with fluorescent lights. Trust me, your overly cramped closet and the environment will thank you. And whether you're in between sizes, need something that fits comfortably one week and a bit looser the next, or just want to feel good in your clothes as your body changes, Armoire offers a flexible solution. You don't have to worry about outgrowing them in a few months. Simply swap for the next size or style whenever you need to. Plus, I get access to designer clothing for a fraction of the cost. Instead of spending $300 on a dress I'll wear once I rent it and a few other things for a fraction of that. It's like having a rotating closet of luxe pieces without the guilt of overspending. Fashion math is finally in my favor right now. My listeners can give Armoire a try and get up to 50% off their first month. That's up to $125 off. Just visit Armoire Style Midlife. That's Armoire Style A R M O I R E Style Midlife to get up to 50% off your first month and never worry about what to wear again, try Armoire today. From fitness routines to mental resilience, navigating personal goals to tackling burnout, we all need a little help being human. That's what the Life Kit podcast from NPR is here to do. If you're looking to move with more intention or just need thoughtful guidance on living better, Life Kit delivers strategies to help you make meaningful, sustainable Change Life doesn't come with a manual, but every day you're making choices, some big, some small, that shape the direction of your life. Life Kit offers real stories, relevant insights and clear takeaways to help you meet those decision making moments with confidence and clarity. I have to tell you, I loved their recent episode with Amanda Hess where she talked about the hidden ways technology can influence your parenting decisions. She got into how data metrics and our relationship to technology can shape child rearing and create barriers between parents and their kids. I found her thoughts on deciding whether or not to share images of her kid on social media really interesting since this is something every parent faces in our digital world. I listen to Life Kit because I get to hear thoughtful conversations that unpack the emotional and practical side of personal wellness and actionable guidance I can actually use no fluff, no judgment, trusted voices and expert advice to help take me to the next step, however big or small. Get help tackling common issues like relationships, finances, parenting and your career. Then walk away with a game plan you can implement right away. Life Kit isn't just another podcast about self improvement, it's about understanding how to live a little better. Starting now. Listen now to the Life Kit podcast from npr. Lemonada hey midlifers, Just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of My so Called Midlife Ad Free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to an exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Feel Better with David Duchovny and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show and Apple Podcasts. Make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonade Premium. Welcome to My so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. Hi, I'm Reshma Sajani. Do you have someone in your life that you learn something new from every time you have a conversation with them? Ana Malaika Tubbs is one of those people for me. She's a highly sought after speaker who travels the entire world on her mission to engage more audiences and powerful, important conversations about race and gender. Her TED Talk, How Moms Shaped the World has amassed over 2 million views. She's a two time New York Times bestselling author, first of three how the Mothers of Martin Luther King Jr. Malcolm X and James Baldwin Shaped a Nation, and most recently, of Erased what American Patriarchy has Hidden from Us. We get into both of her books today, and I truly love both of them. And in this conversation, we get deep. But what I'm really walking away from, our time together, is what Ana and I talked about right off the bat, how she approaches her life and her family. Because this is something I struggle with all the time. We talked on the day after her birthday, and she told me every year on her birthday, she reflects on where she is, what it is that she wants in her life, and how she feels about these different categories of her life. Work, family, personal. Now, I tend to do the same exercise on New Year's Eve and every single year. But Anna has me thinking, maybe I should do it on my birthday. And with my 50th birthday coming right around the corner, I'm convinced that this timing of our conversation, it literally couldn't have been better. Let's get into it. I always start the show by asking people, like, how do you feel at this stage in your life? You're just entering midlife, like, what's your mindset? Or you've been thinking about it?

[B]

Yeah, I've been thinking about it, especially because yesterday was my birthday. I've been reflecting a lot on just. I always reflect on where I am, what it is that I want in my life, how do I feel about these different categories of my life. I get almost kind of academic about it and think of, you know, life as my spirituality and my personal growth. And then how are things going in my marriage? How am I showing up as a mom? And then my career, finances. Like, I just broke it all down and started to reflect on a lot of it. And overall, I feel really great. I'm really proud of myself. I am so thankful for all of the amazing blessings that I've had so far on this journey. I've also had some hard things that have happened. I lost my mom at a really young age. She passed away two and a half years ago now.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

So every year, of course, I reflect on that and what my grief process and journey is. And, yeah, overall, I'm just. I'm really grateful. I'm proud and I'm hungry for more. I'm really excited for everything else I can do.

[A]

Do you really do a reflection on your birthday? Cause I do that on New Year's, right? I, I, On New Year's Day, I write all the things I want to accomplish. And then, like, the days leading up to New Year's, I reflect back on Whether I did the things that I say I was gonna do. But I don't do that on my birthday. Do you do that on your birthday?

[B]

I do it on my birthday instead of New Year's because New Year's for me feels very like middle. I'm always also on this kind of academic schedule, I think, because, you know, I'm such a proud nerd. I've like always loved to be at school. I've done so many years of school that my academic calendar feels more appropriate for the year. And my birthday happens to fall in the summer. So I'm reflecting on what I'm going to do starting in the fall every year. I feel like the season of the holidays is so busy. It's so difficult to stop, especially when you're a mom, to stop and say, this is when I'm going to reset everything. I mean, the kids are in the middle of their school year. There's not much that they can reset either. Yeah, but I think if you can reset things over the summer and really relax into it and then start in the fall, it just works better for me.

[A]

I think that's really smart. Like, I do most of my reading and my creative work and like slow down. Like, I don't do any external meetings, you know, in August. So, like, you're right. The summer is really, it a better time to do like your life. KPIs. I might have to switch that around. So now remind me how old your kids are.

[B]

I have a five year old, three year old and a one year old.

[A]

Okay, so I. We're gonna get into your writing in a second. But you've written these incredible books that are highly. I don't wanna get to them. They're highly researched. You also have a partner that is like a mayor, you know what I mean? Like, has a very big career. So how the fuck do you do it?

[B]

I love this question.

[A]

Yeah, how do you do it?

[B]

I think it's so important, and I will say also just a tangential note, that a lot of times people, especially women, we feel offended by that question. Because you're like, why is everyone always asking me, like, how I'm balancing it? Why aren't they asking you?

[A]

But I think, especially when.

[B]

I know, I think especially in the US it is a question, it's a mystery because we don't have things built in that support women in all of these different roles that support us in our relationships. And so it really is a mystery. And we're all trying to help each other out and figure out. How are we making it happen? You know, in other places, you have guaranteed parental leave, you have guaranteed access to child.

[A]

You have a village. Right, yeah. People around you.

[B]

Exactly. So I want us to use that question more often, more as an opportunity for us to say, yeah, it's a question in the US because it truly is every person for themselves here. And we're sharing how it is that we all do it. So I, you know, it's interesting. I think one is we have certain privileges, and this is something that I want more of us in the US to have access to. We have an incredible caretaker, a nanny, who I could not live without. I thank her in my acknowledgement section of my book after, you know, my parents. She is so incredibly important. And it's important for us to also note, I'm not doing this alone. I do call on my village. I call on my in laws who live in Stockton. We're now in Los Angeles, but they can get here when I need them to be here. I'm not ashamed to ask for that help. And also my partner and I, we are college sweethearts. We've been together for 14 years. We've been married for eight years, but we grew up together. We're still growing up together. And so we've always been in this relationship where I like to call it feedback. I give Michael a lot of feedback, and I always say, hey, are you in a space where you're ready to receive some feedback?

[A]

Feedback?

[B]

Because I'm somebody who's very, very clear on what I need. I'm very clear on how I'm gonna voice my feelings and what I want in our relationship. And I think over time, he's just become more used to understanding, oh, Anna's focus on how we can be our best, you know, team, how we can accomplish all of the goals that we've set for ourselves, including being the best parents that we want to be and not settling for anything less than that and working on ourselves and improving that. That's what life is about. It isn't. We just stay stagnant. It's entirely about this growth mindset and working together in that. So we have a wonderful partnership. It hasn't always been perfect, but we're always both willing to give and receive that feedback. And, yeah, the village. And then also having the privileges of being able to pay for somebody to help us.

[A]

Yeah, we have a good couples counselor.

[B]

Yes, we do too.

[A]

Right? And it's like, it's the one thing we always want to move it around. You know what I Mean, but it's like Friday at 12, you know what I mean? Every other week. And because I think we got to it. Cause we're. My husband. Nahala and I are also both go getters. We have big dreams about our careers. Nobody wants to, like, step aside. You know what I mean? But logistics is a real issue. Right. And, like, the emotional. I was just telling you, my kids are with their grandparents. And he was like, you know, day five. Oh, I miss them. Let's call them. I'm like, I don't. You know what I mean? Because I actually feel like my back has released. I'm sleeping better. I have had fun. When we've had dinner with our friends, like, I've. There's just a sense of myself. Yeah. You know what I mean? That I have just gotten back where he doesn't feel that way. And I do have a partner that we are very close to, like, sharing all the things. It's just the different things are what matter sometimes. Right. So how do you navigate that? Because I'm not sure we've exactly figured it out yet. I mean, if I was honest, I think in the back of both of our heads, we think we would be a da, da, da, da, da, da. You know what I mean? If we had picked a different partner.

[B]

Yeah. I think especially for those of us who, again, these heteronormative relationships and those of us who are women who study what we're coming up against. So we're well aware of it, you and I. It's not the same necessarily. Sometimes. Sometimes it surprises women and catches them off guard when they go into a relationship and they're with an ambitious partner, and they're ambitious themselves, and they're like, oh, let's have children. Let's start this family. And we're gonna continue to be both of us, our ambitious selves. And then suddenly they're forced into the default parent role, which definitely happened to me. I don't know if it happened to you, but even though I was well aware of the fact that this could happen, even the fact that we had so many conversations about it, it's still happen and still continues to happen. It's a constant conversation of me explaining to Michael, hey, I'm holding all of these cards, you know, shout out to you, Brodsky, and fair play. I'm doing all of these things, and you seem to think I'm just supposed to do them. Even though we met when we were in college, we met while we were both doing these incredible things. I never said that. I was going to take a step back from that, but even if you didn't consciously realize that you thought there were certain things that I was just going to carry, and we still come up against that every single day. And I think it's just a constant conversation also in a constant acknowledgment of, look at this role and the weight that Ana is carrying, and how can we shift things around? Because also, not every man is the same. You know, some men can really go and, like, fix the whole house. And, you know, they cook and they.

[A]

Cook and do all the things.

[B]

And my partner doesn't do all of those things, but he is incredibly ambitious. He will always do what he needs to do to take care of, you know, the family while providing his part, and I'm providing mine. So I think it's just about. Yeah. Being able to have those conversations. I don't think every relationship is perfect. I have yet to see a relationship where truly both partners in a heteronormative relationship are having their needs met, especially once children become partners.

[A]

I'm with you. I haven't seen it either. You know, it's funny. At our fatherhood summit, Dr. Becky said something that kind of blew my mind. And she said, you know, part of the thing is, is that, you know, when our partners say, look at how much more I'm doing than my father. And it's really the generational shift. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're like, what do you mean? Like, I don't know what your father was doing, but I want you to do, like. So it is taking a moment to appreciate that. Right. That, like, there's only so much expectation you may be able to have of a shift in a generation in terms of what is possible. Which is why, for me, being the mother of sons, I am very conscious of it. You know what I mean? So, like, if I'm walking out of the house, my son is 10, I might pick up my bags.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Make your bed. You know what I mean? Put your dishes in the sink. Right. Like, get into a caregiving role. I call him. You know, Sean is 10, Sy is 5. I. From the beginning, I'm like, you're second mommy. You know what I mean? You are the second person responsible. And he calls himself second mommy.

[B]

Right. I love that.

[A]

And it's really just ingraining at the youngest of possible ages that, like, caregiving is your job and your role.

[B]

Yeah. And that it's an honorable position to be in and that it allows you.

[A]

She's Very proud of being an second mommy. That's right.

[B]

It's a beautiful thing and it allows you to have so much more awareness of people around you, your interconnectedness to other people. You're not robbing boys of anything by explaining to them that what they do impacts others, that if they enter certain spaces they need to leave it better or at least where it was to begin with, that you don't make it worse, you don't leave a mess for somebody, that you appreciate that things just, just magically happen. But a person is going to have to come into that space, you know, and reset that space. All of those messages are only helping them to be better human beings. And it's not equipped men, boys in the past to keep them from accessing that honorable role of caretaking. And I, I, I agree that a lot of men, I mean, and, and also we can say there's definitely much more involvement from men. We're seeing that right in the research that like millennial dads for instance, are much more invol holding their children more often. We also know from research that that helps them, that their brains start to shift, that they have, that they have.

[A]

Less heart attacks, less diabetes. Like, it's actually good for them.

[B]

It's really good for them. Really, really good for them. And the other thing I will say too is that I really, you know, Michael has said this to me too, where he's like, but I am really involved and like, you know, my, he didn't grow up with his dad, so for him he's sort of like, look how much I'm doing. You know, I didn't even have this presence in my life. It's real generational change and I acknowledge that and that's amazing. But I also say I'm not here to talk people or other families. I'm here to tell you what I need. I'm your partner, so don't worry about all the rest.

[A]

Don't worry about what your dad did or didn't do. Right? Worry about what you need to do.

[B]

Here, this is us.

[A]

Armoire makes getting dressed easy. With a clothing rental membership from Armoire, build the perfect wardrobe with brands that are high quality, unique and recommended just for you. All you have to do is take a five minute style quiz and select items from your dynamic personalized closet. The styles show up at your door in as little as two days. Then when you're ready for new clothes, just swap them out for more new to you styles. I never have time to just go shopping or change my wardrobe every season, and I found myself uninspired by my closet day after day. Which is why I'm happy I found Armoire. I could easily change my wardrobe without taking extra time off my schedule and be pleasantly surprised by their styling choices. I always feel like I have something new and exciting to wear. Armoire allows you to rent high quality designer clothing for every occasion and then send it back. Whether you're planning your outfit for a date night, packing for a conference, or in need of a gown for a black tie event, you will be the best dressed person in the room without ever having to brave a fitting room with fluorescent lights. Trust me, your overly cramped closet and the environment will thank you. And whether you're in between sizes, need something that fits comfortably one week and a bit looser the next, or just want to feel good in your clothes as your body changes, Armoire offers a flexible solution. You don't have to worry about outgrowing them in a few months. Simply swap for the next size or style whenever you need to. Plus, I get access to designer clothing for a fraction of the cost Instead of spending $300 on a dress I'll wear once I rent it and a few other things for a fraction of that. It's like having a rotating closet of luxe pieces without the guilt of overspending. Fashion math is finally in my favor right now. My listeners can give Armoire a try and get up to 50% off their first month. That's up to $125 off. Just visit Armoire Style Midlife that's Armoire style a R M O I R E Style Midlife to get up to 50% off your first month and never worry about what to wear again. Try Armoire today. Fall is in full swing and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm and save big without compromising on quality, Quinn says. All the elevated essentials for fall think 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50, washable silk tops and skirts, and perfectly tailored denim, all at prices that feel too good to be true. I'm eyeing their wool coats. They look designer level but cost a fraction of the price and the quality just as good, if not better. By partnering directly with ethical top tier factories and cutting out the middlemen, Quince is able to deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. I've really been loving their 100% European linen pleated trouser. These pants are elevated, airy and effortless. They've got an elastic waistband at the back and traditional pleated details at the front. These trousers are classic and comfy at the same time and they've become a staple in my wardrobe. Keep it classy and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from quince go to quince.com midlife for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com midlife to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com midlife as I get older, I keep catching myself thinking I should go to the doctor more. You know, to deal with things like sleep, trouble, feeling bloated after certain meals and chronic fatigue. But it can be tough to get to the doctor. I want to keep myself healthy, but the system makes it impossible to find the right doc for my needs. Until I found ZocDoc. They made it so easy to find the right fit and book an appointment fast directly on their website. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. With Zocdoc, you can book in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health to dental health, primary care to urgent care, and more. And you can even filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, are a good fit for your medical needs, and are highly rated by verified patients. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings. Choose a time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. You can even make appointments typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. I've even found same day appointments. Getting older means we have to stay on top of our preventative health. Even more so, I needed to find a primary doctor that I could trust and who was qualified to help with menopause symptoms. With Zocdoc, I was able to filter for primary care doctors within my area with high rated reviews. I was able to finally find reliable care within my reach at any time. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com midlife to find an instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's Zocdoc.com midlife Zocdoc.com midlife you know what doesn't belong in your epic summer plans? Getting burned by your old wireless bill while you're Planning beach trips, barbecues and three day weekends. Your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. That's why I made the switch to Mint Mobile. With Mint, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. And for a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So while your friends are sweating over data, overages and surprise charges, you'll be chilling, literally and financially. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with your existing contacts. Ditch to overpriced wireless and get three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. I really have been paying way too much with one of the big carriers for service that didn't feel worth it. Especially since I'm on Wi Fi most of the time. With Mint, I can get the same great coverage I've had before, but for a fraction of the price. With all those savings, I can fund my next long overdue girls trip this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com midlife that's mintmobile.com midlife upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for the first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Your first book was a New York Times bestseller. I loved it. It's called the Three Mothers and it's just an incredible read.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

You wrote about the mothers of MLK Jr, Malcolm X and James Baldwin and you said they weren't just mothers of icons, they were icons in their own right. What were you hoping that people would unlearn when they read the book?

[B]

Yeah, I wanted them to unlearn the notion that any man is self made, that anyone sort of pops out of nowhere without any history behind them. Even the basic concept that MLK Jr. Malcolm X and James Baldwin were human beings, they were somebody's son, they were someone's brother, they were real people. And I think understanding that through the perspective of women and all of the dreams and aspirations that they had and all of their accomplishments that they had long before their sons were even a thought in their mind, I wanted people to unlearn the shock of that, you know, that it feels like some Kind of surprise finding that they all did things that mattered before their kids were born. And it's interesting because when I started the research, there was so little out there about each of these women. So little. If you tried to Google them before, there was nothing. And now you can, because I've wrote the book.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you. Several articles are out there, but before, there was really nothing. And as I was reconstructing their lives and kind of going through my research process, I started to put together a timeline of their lives. And I was going through the sons works and anything that people had written about the sons, because that was the entry point. That was where we had the most written. And all you could find from that was maybe a birth date for the moms. It was always kind of a guess and then a skip past all that they'd ever done up until when that famous child is born. And then when that famous child, in all three of these cases, sadly, the mothers outlive their sons. When that child passes away, then there was nothing else for us to know about them. And it felt just such a symbol of how so many women are looked at and treated. You know, like you were born at some point and then you had a great child. And we all want to talk about that child. And well, beyond that, we really don't know and don't care about what you care about what you're contributing to the world. And so I just wanted to help people unlearn all of that and purposely so when I write the book. Cause I knew a lot of people would be coming to the book because they wanted to hear more about the sons. I was using that as a hook. I knew some people authentically wanted to hear about the mothers, but either way, I don't talk about the sons until we're about halfway through the book. Because so much of their lives had been lived. And I wanted us to talk about them. And you're seeing as you're walking through the book and learning about these women in the first decades of their lives, and you're not hearing anything about the sons, you're already seeing connections to the sons, because that's obvious. Of course, the sons are carrying forward a lot of the same aspirations and talents that their mothers had.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I didn't know that Malcolm X's mother was in jail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For her social justice fighting. Right.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, she interpreted it as her imprisonment. It was a mental institution. But, yes, basically the same thing. She was this radical activist. She was a Marcus Garvey follower. Not only A follower. She was heavily involved in the movement. We'd known before. Other historians had told us that Malcolm X's father was also an organizer, was also radical. And we'd all kind of assumed that that's how he became one himself. But nobody had told us that his mom and his dad met because they were both organizers in the movement, and they were both some of the bravest ones. And therefore they were sent together to certain cities to help incite this revolutionary spirit. And so when Louise little Malcolm's mom, loses her husband, he's killed. Even though it's ruled like a suicide or an accident, to keep her from being able to access any of the life insurance, she's then targeted very specifically because she wants to still raise her family and her children on her own. And doctors are coming and taking looks at her and saying, oh, she's imagining things. And in my research, I find the letter that a doctor writes to the state, it's a white male doctor, and he says she is imagining being discriminated against.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That is a quote from a doctor's note. And it is enough to put her away in a mental institution against her will for 25 years of her life. Wow.

[A]

Wow. Was there some common way they parented that led to these three remarkable men?

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting because it is so important to me because black women are so often. We're not represented and our stories are not told. And if they are, in those rare moments, it's as if we are a monolith, as if we are all the same. And that one story can tell all black women's stories. And so it was really important to me to really emphasize. Not only emphasize. It was just, they were different people. I wanted to tell the story as it was. They parented very differently. It's one of the primary reasons that MLK Jr. Malcolm X and James Baldwin have different views on their lives. It's because of how their mothers taught them and where they grew up. But there are some things that unify them in terms of certain tenets. I call them the tenets of black motherhood, even if they embody them a little bit differently. And so the first of those tenets is that each of them realized that they couldn't shield their children from knowing about how ugly the world could be, from knowing that there were people out there who were going to treat them differently from knowing about the state of the world under Jim Crow. And, of course, right before the beginning of the civil rights movement they're participating in, they needed to tell them how ugly the world was, that we as black mothers don't have a privilege of pretending that those things don't exist.

[A]

Protecting them, right?

[B]

To prepare them, yeah, we have to prepare them. But the second of those tenets is that our children can't be defined by that. And so all three of these mothers have different ways in which they're showing their kids. Even if that ugliness exists, you are not defined by it. This is not.

[A]

You can be anything.

[B]

Exactly, you can be anything. And this is just a story that people are telling. And in fact, not only should you not be defined by that, you can change that entirely. So the third part is they tell them each how they can participate in that change by showing them what they did. So MLK Jr. S mother is a. She marches, she participates in boycotts. For her, her religious faith is always intertwined with social justice. And so she teaches him that. She teaches him those tactics that her has kind of practiced for generations. And for them, education is incredibly important. They must be educated in order to use this as a tool to advance this community wide cause. So this is the strategy that she teaches him. We have Luis Little, again, radical activist. She says, you don't bow down to your oppressors no matter what. It'd be better for you to die voicing your freedom than to live in captivity. And so she's like, you know, just burn it all down. We have to start over. And so again, less surprising now that this is Malcolm X's mother. So she teaches him that don't be apologetic, be unafraid, be brave, be courageous. That's more important that people remember what you stood for than to live in captivity. And then you have James Baldwin's mother, who is a writer. All of the people who I interviewed about her, the words that they use are, she's the love, the light, the peace. She's always thinking about how you find joy, even in the hardest of times. And she believes that you can do that through storytelling. She gifted people letters that everybody looked forward to on their birthdays because they were filled with lessons on how you find the light and you confront the darkness and you confront the pain. So that third tenet is how do we address it? How do we change it? Here is how we've done it in the past, kiddos. Can you kind of carry this forward? And the fourth part of that is for them to remember that one. They're not alone. We've told you how we've done this for generations. There's people around you who are fighting for this and that. You have to hold onto your joy, your creativity, love. Those are the things that we're fighting for, that you don't constantly have to be angry. You don't constantly have to feel like that's the only feeling that you're allowed to have. But instead, use that anger to claim the things that you want that make us human, the things that people are taking from us. And so that fourth part, and you see it throughout the book, you see it in so many examples of their lives. There's a lot of simplicity. They're just living. They weren't trying to raise children to be icons. They weren't trying to raise children to have. To be the leaders that would be martyred. They were raising children to live, to thrive, to dream. And those are the four things that really bring them together. And that I carry in my own mothering as well.

[A]

I mean, it's so beautiful. Someone. It's like almost like the. The act of resistance and slavery was having a child.

[B]

Yeah. And loving that child and saying, I don't. I believe this child is my child and not somebody else's property. I talk about this all the time, but it can't be spoken about enough. How in American history, black mothers were told by the law, your child is not a human being. Your child is somebody else's property. And that we can remove this child from you whenever we want to. And your mothering is not the same as some other woman's mothering. You don't get to have access to that relationship. And so this is the thing that has allowed black women from, you know, the beginning. And I talk about it as American patriarchy in our country, to say, all of that is made up. This is crazy. There's no way that I'm gonna believe that. And even though it's written in the law, it doesn't align with what I know to be true. And the power of having that mindset, this is all made up. We can make up something else. And in fact, not only can we, but we must, because what's being offered to me right now won't work. This does not acknowledge my humanity, and it doesn't acknowledge the humanity of the most precious beings, my children, my descendants. So I'm going to have to shift this law. I'm going to have to shift this nation to see things through my eyes. And there's too many people in our country who don't have that mindset. And so they believe, oh, no. There's been this executive order. There's been this law. What are we going to do? What are we supposed to do? It's made up. You have to make up something else.

[A]

I don't know about you, but I've always struggled with burnout and focus. This is such a common experience for so many of us, but what we don't realize is that sometimes the difficulties you go through might be something deeper. It might be time to explore what it means to be neurodivergent. If that's where you're at, I want to tell you about another podcast you should check out. It's called Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson. Each episode Ray speaks with a different expert, whether they're a scientist, doctor or researcher, to dive into some of the big questions and headlines around mental health and well being from an ADHD lens. They talk about things like can you really hack your dopamine? And what parents need to know about the MAHA Report. I checked out a few episodes and was so impressed by how they broke down adhd, I thought I knew what ADHD was. But hyperfocus taught me the misconceptions, what to look out for with kids with adhd, and even trace back the history of how women have been underrepresented in ADHD diagnosis. As a parent and midlifer, I feel better equipped to understand what it really means to have ADHD and how to support those around me who are neurodivergent. If you're curious about adhd, make sure to listen to Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson. Search for Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson in your podcast app. That's Hyperfocus with Ray Jacobson. From fitness routines to mental resilience, navigating personal goals to tackling burnout, we all need a little help being human. That's what the Life Kit podcast from NPR is here to do. If you're looking to move with more intention or just need thoughtful guidance on living better, Life Kit delivers strategies to help you make meaningful, sustainable changes. Life doesn't come with a manual, but every day you're making choices, some big, some small, that shape the direction of your life. Life Kit offers real stories, relevant insights and clear takeaways to help you meet those decision making moments with confidence and clarity. I have to tell you, I loved their recent episode with Amanda Hess where she talked about the hidden ways technology can influence your parenting decisions. She got into how data metrics and our relationship to technology can shape child rearing and create barriers between parents and their kids. I found her thoughts on deciding whether or not to share images of her kid on social media. Really interesting since this is something every parent faces in our digital world. I listen to Life Kit because I get to hear thoughtful conversations that unpack the emotional and practical side of personal wellness. Actionable guidance I can actually use no fluff, no judgment, trusted voices and expert advice to help take me to the next step, however big or small. Get help tackling common issues like relationships, finances, parenting, and your career. Then walk away with a game plan you can implement right away. Life Kit isn't just another podcast about self improvement. It's about understanding how to live a little better. Starting now. Listen now to the Life Kit podcast from npr. There's so much advice out there, and all we want to do as parents is get it right. The great news is you. You're the expert on your child, and sometimes figuring out what they need is as simple as getting them to talk. I'm Dr. Susan Swick, a child and adolescent psychiatrist, and I'm also a mother of four. On my new podcast, Talk About Able, I'll hear from parents about what's keeping them up at night, and we'll figure out how to tackle it by talking about it. From Lemonada Media. Talk about able is out September 9th. Follow wherever you get your podcast. I want to get into your next book. So I love Trudeau's book Erased. What American Patriarchy has Hidden from Us. Everyone should read it. I couldn't put it down and it came to me as such a gift in a time where we're in this fight for childcare and paid leave and just also in this fight to really understand the state of gender relations right now and why. Why are we so polarized? And when you're seeing this kind of notions of traditionalism really start creeping up, like, where did that come from? So I want to talk about the book. So one of the things that I've been telling everybody about at dinner parties that really blew me away is really understanding our founding fathers and they're creating a country, a constitution that gave men rights and did not give women rights. Now some people like you said, well, that's just the way it is. You know what I mean? And then now we're just trying to fight for equality. You said so profoundly. No, they chose that. And I asked you this question when I interviewed at your book event. Well, was that just baked in to the culture at that time? And you said to me, go ahead.

[B]

No, no. They were well aware that there were other options available to them. One of the primary kind of, again, tenets of American patriarchy Is to erase any other options from people's minds, from our public awareness. Very specifically, the founding fathers wanted to make sure that we completely left behind any indigenous beliefs, Specifically around acknowledging people beyond the gender binary. But the gender binary is so critical to American patriarchy. Everything hinges on the fact that you can only be man or woman in the United States, but also that not everybody is allowed to be man or woman even. And so they're aware of that. They're setting it all up in a way that they believe allows them to carry the most power in their nation.

[A]

Now, why do you think they chose it that way?

[B]

Yeah, and I'm not the first to say this, and this is. I purposely, in the book, quote white male historians, because people might say, oh, she's kind of making this up about the founding fathers, who we've been told and that we need to laud as the heroes of our nation. They founded the nation. Yes. And I'm not saying that it was a small feat. They won the revolutionary war. These things are all true. But we start to forget who they were. They were just these young men, kind of scrappy men who wanted to gain control and make sure that they didn't lose that control after they won the war. And so they purposefully. And they say this in their letters. They talk about it in their meetings. They purposely are building a nation for men. They want to build a republic for men. And so they define man in the constitution by saying, those who can own land are men. Those who can vote are men. Those who can speak for themselves and represent themselves are men. And they don't include women at all in the Constitution. Women are completely left out. But in letters that they're writing to their daughters and to their wives, they're defining women as the one who needs to be controlled, protected, that they're fragile, they can't think for themselves, they shouldn't participate in politics, their votes don't matter, that they get kind of usurped into the identity of the men in their lives. And so they set it up that way. But we know from those definitions that they're also purposefully excluding, for instance, men who are enslaved. Men who are enslaved can't own land. They can't vote. So we know that that doesn't fit into the definition of manhood. We know that from what we talked about previously, Black women are not being protected. Black women are not being allowed to play this problematic role in the gender binary. And particularly the thing that they give women in their lives is the power to reproduce men through Children, the power to reproduce, that legacy and that status. That's how they are defining white women in their lives. So of course, we see that doesn't include black women who are being told, your children will be taken away from you. And not only that, no matter how you come to have this child, this child is going to carry your status, not the status of whoever.

[A]

This child, your white father.

[B]

Right, exactly. It's always going to be black women's status that gets carried forward. So you start to see how from the beginning, this binary is problematic. This binary erases histories that be that that were available before it. And it also makes it so that all of us are fighting for our right to be gendered in the US that our humanity is connected to wanting to fit into one of these prescribed roles. And so then all of us start to protect it. And we don't even know why we're protecting it, but we care so deeply about, this is what it means to be man. This is what it means to be woman. I can't tell you the amount of people who I've spoken to who said, and you know, I disagree with Trump on everything, you know, everything. But he has this right, the objective truth of man and woman. And not enough people are diving deeper into. But most of you would not have been a part of that definition. Most of you wouldn't have fit that definition. Even poor white people didn't fit the definition of man and woman. That the founding fathers were set up.

[A]

And so why do you think it's so. So I think this so. And I want to. Because what you said, what you're saying is very. I want. No, I want the midlifers to not miss this. Like, when the country was founded, there were alternatives. Like in Native American culture, women were chieftains. They had, you know, they had power. They had, you know, again, control over their own autonomy. There was a movement that was happening in France, Right. That was giving. So there were. They could have picked an alternative system because at that time they were inventing it all, but they intentionally picked this one. And part of it was because they themselves were these scrappy, powerless orphans. They were, in lack of a better word, insecure about their own station. And so they wanted to actually create division to protect their own power.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Let's put fast forward to what's happening right now, because as you're talking, I'm like, it's like eerie, right? Because it's. Why are we taking away people's reproductive rights again? To have control over appropriation. Why are we so why is this idea of traditional masculinity so attractive right now, especially to a subset of men that feel powerless? Because it gives them control, Right?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Why are certain subset of women who benefit from the patriarchy want to uphold that gender binary? Because it, again, gives them power, a station, all of that. Why can't we fucking get out of this?

[B]

Yeah, it's written into everything in our nation. It's written into every system. It's written into even laws that are no longer in place. We're still seeing the effects of them play out. So, for instance, yes, there was a law once that stated that men could beat their wives. Then it kind of transitions into, but don't go too far. There's only a certain amount of times that this will be okay. And then even if it's no longer in existence, we still see high levels that didn't count. Exactly where people are like, but why didn't she just leave? You know, all of these horrific moments and where we're just normalizing these behaviors because they are so deeply ingrained in our nation. And it goes even beyond what a lot of people would traditionally see as a conversation around men trying to control women. And that's why it was so important to me in my defining of what American patriarchy is. I'm saying that almost all of us were not considered human being. It's not solely a question of, do men want to control women? It's a question of, do we have access to humanity if we play these roles. That's what we were told. And so there's a lot of men in this nation who think that they don't have access to resources or they're losing their job simply because they're not playing their gendered role well enough, that they need to man up, that they need to be more violent, that they need to take control. It's been a part of black American history that so many black women have been told, you're the reason that your families are falling apart. You're emasculating the men in your lives. Versus talking about, of course, the many policies that were in place to disrupt black families from the very beginning of American patriarchy. And so if we're all distracted by what's actually hurting us, and instead we're blaming each other rather than a system that was intentionally built this way, then we can't do anything about it. And we also can't do anything about it if we don't realize how connected all of these things are to each other. How a fight for citizenship or Deciding who gets to be again, human based off American citizenship is ridiculous in terms of what other options we have right now. You can have whatever opinion you want to have around immigration policies. I'm not even going to get into the policy side of it. But you don't get to dehumanize people because you've decided they're not American. To be American is not to be human. To be human is to be human. You don't get to remove children from their parents arms. That's dehumanization. Because don't we believe in families? Don't we believe in protecting.

[A]

Preach, sister. That's right.

[B]

And so if you can remove someone's humanity based off of citizenship, it comes back down to American patriarchy and who gets to be acknowledged here, which families get to be protected here. It all comes back to this. And so I'm sitting here in this time where of course so much is happening. And I say President Donald Trump is the best embodiment of American patriarchy that I have ever seen. The best personification of it, if you understand what I'm talking about. This initial original social order, everything he does maps perfectly to it. And then you have all these people who are still so confused, still so shocked. I am telling you right here, I've given you all the theory that you need to understand, but also to have the mindset of if he can just make these things up, we need to make something else up that's better.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That acknowledges our humanity.

[A]

That's right. I mean, I say this all the time with people when they're following DEI and I orders, which are literally dismantling all the work that we've done at Girls who Code. Like, like it's a lie. It goes against, actually goes against the law. Like you don't have to follow it. So this goes to my point, right? Because people are always saying to me, oh my God, this is so bad. What do I do, what do I do, what do I do? And I was like, I see this pop up in my parent chats in our workplaces, like you don't need to just march, go do that too. But actually you need to speak up in your every day life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So at the end of the book, you offer some real solutions on how we break up with patriarchy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do I break up with patriarchy? If I'm listening right now, what do I just tangibly do you.

[B]

And I will say I might write my third book about just like teasing out all of these different things that I Offer in the conclusion and making sure, like, step by step and the policies that we could vote for and et cetera. But I think the first thing is it's a mindset shift, and you have to think about it in the levels of your life. So on a personal level, there does have to be some work done around. Why do I either feel that in order to be recognized and to have value in this nation, I have to control other people, or I have to climb this imaginary ladder of humanity and dominate other people around me? Do you believe that that's how you access less power? Is. Is. Do you believe that that's how, by the time you die, you want to say, look at all the people that I controlled in my life. Or could you maybe do some reassessing of why you feel that way? It's also for those who feel silenced and think that they're supposed to be silenced, that they're supposed to live a life where other people constantly tell them what to do. Why do you feel that way? So there's that internal work first, that reflecting work. The second side of it is in our relationships. How might we be replicating American patriarchy in our relationships? Is it in our marriages? Is it in our friendships that one of us is trying to dominate the other? Is it in our parenting where we're.

[A]

Telling children, we started our conversation right?

[B]

To come back around to it, are we telling you you have to fit a certain role, or are we saying this all could be different? You tell me how you want to live your life. How can you be free in. In this world? And the third side of that part of that is we can meet each other's needs and build something different. What I'm saying in terms of, like, making it all up on a community level, this has been done multiple times throughout American history where people say, okay, even if it's not happening on a national level yet, how can we, for instance, build models of child care for all? Could we do it in a community first? Could we do it at a city level first? Can we show, for instance, like the Rainbow, Rainbow Coalition, that we can bring communities together and feed the people in our community? We can do that at any given moment. You can say, hey, if this is missing on a national level, I'm going to start something in my neighborhood that shows that we don't have to live that way. And then the fourth level is, how do you vote for this? Because the opposite of American patriarchy is not a nation where women have control and power over men. That's not What I'm advocating for.

[A]

Right. It's not the Barbie.

[B]

No, no. And as much as Barbie was very entertaining, there's so much that I could say about it. Yeah. It's not that we have power over men. It's a nation where we each have power in our nation, we have power within ourselves. We have power to make decisions about ourselves. And in a democracy, that comes out in our votes. So we actually haven't ever truly seen what American democracy could be, because, as I told you all from the beginning, we weren't all seen as people. But a democracy only works if power is vested in the people, all of the people. And so what I'm advocating for, I'm not saying. When I say burn the book of patriarchy, I'm actually not saying burn the Constitution. There's a lot of really important moments in the Constitution that allow us to think about what could happen if each person in that nation had power and their voices were heard and their votes counted. And there wasn't all of these different ways in which we can take away that power. By saying, you're not human, actually, you don't get to access it. Oh, you've been in prison. You don't get to vote anymore. Oh, you. You know, like, all of that needs.

[A]

To shift as we close. I feel like you're hopeful because the reason that you're having this conversation, you wrote this book, means like. Like it's on its last breath. Patriarchy is totally. Do you agree?

[B]

I agree. I agree completely. I think it's kind of flailing. I think, however, though, in this vulnerability of American patriarchy, especially at a time where there is so much technology that can help it grow and can sustain it. Where I talk about in the book how AI thus far is reproducing American patriarchy, because, again, if we're not focusing in on what the actual issue is, then code and. And AI is based off of what's already in existence. So we're just seeing it further magnified. And so this is the time where we really need to do that full assessment of our lives. How is it showing up in every single thing that we do so that we can finally let go of it and realize that it didn't serve any of us. Even those who were supposed to be the primary beneficiaries, white men, they have high levels of depression, high levels of drug dependency. You know, this whole thing with Elon Musk, like, using all of these drugs while on the campaign trail.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is like the behavior that's being normalized it's not okay. Nobody is doing well in this current system.

[A]

Patriarchy is not serving men. In some ways, I think a patriarchy doesn't serve men more than it doesn't serve women. You know, in many ways I agree. And so that's, I think, the radical conversation we would have.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, again, congratulations on this amazing book and it was such a pleasure talking to you again.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me. Reshma.

[A]

Thank you so much to Ana Malika Tubbs for talking with me today. Her latest book is called what American Patriarchy Has Hidden From Us. One last thing, thank you so much for listening to my so called Midlife. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like More from my Conversation with Neha Rush where we talk about motherhood, work, shame. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host Rashmi Sajani. Our associate producer is Isara Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kulraev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oja Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this [e-mail] midlife follow my soul Club Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye. Our healthcare system is broken in so many ways. We have a healthcare system that's supposed to be taking care of people that is making it literally more difficult for people to put food on the table. So this season we'll dive into the challenges headfirst while also thinking about how we can find a better way because we all deserve better. Uncared for season three from Lemonada Media available August 6th wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Lena Waithe Legacy Talk is my love letter to Black storytellers, artists who've changed the game and paved the way for so many of us.

[B]

This season, I'm sitting down with icons.

[A]

Like Phylicia Rashad, Loretta Devine, Ava DuVernay and more. We're talking about their journeys, their creative process and the legacies they're building every single day. Come be a part of the conversation. Season two drops July 29th listen to Legacy Talk wherever you get your podcast or Watch us on YouTube.