Don’t Despair, Divorce! With Oona Metz

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Don’t Despair, Divorce! With Una Metz"

Episode Release Date: November 6, 2024
Host: Reshma Saujani
Guest: Una Metz, Psychotherapist, Writer, and Speaker

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani, host Reshma Saujani delves deep into the intricacies of divorce during midlife with expert guest Una Metz. As a seasoned psychotherapist and the upcoming author of Thriving Before, During, and After Divorce, Una brings invaluable insights into why midlife is a pivotal period for marital dissolution and how individuals can navigate this challenging transition.

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The Average Midlife Divorce and Its Timing

Una Metz sheds light on the prevalence of divorce during midlife, highlighting that the average age for divorce is 44 years. She explains, “What I see a lot is women in their 50s… they have two or three kids and maybe one or two of the kids is off at college and another one's in high school. And they're thinking about what's next” ([14:52]). This stage often coincides with children becoming more independent, allowing parents to reassess and prioritize their own needs and desires outside of parenting responsibilities.

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Signs of a Failing Marriage

Reshma initiates the conversation by asking Una about indicators that a marriage may be nearing its end. Una Metz emphasizes that it's not merely about differences between partners but how these differences are negotiated. She states, “Any kind of differences… it’s about how you negotiate those differences” ([04:19]). Whether it's differing views on household chores, communication styles, or personal values, the ability to effectively manage and negotiate these disparities is crucial for marital longevity.

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The Dynamics of Fighting in Relationships

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the nature of conflicts within marriages. Una Metz differentiates between “fighting clean” and “fighting dirty”. She advises against bringing up divorce as a threat during arguments: “Don’t bring up divorce unless you’re absolutely serious” ([06:28]). Instead, she advocates for respectful disagreements where both partners listen and strive to understand each other without escalating tensions. Reshma shares her personal struggle with this, admitting, “I’m a talker” ([08:35]), highlighting the common challenge of shifting from being talkative to becoming an effective listener during disputes.

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Financial Implications of Divorce for Women

The financial aftermath of divorce is a critical topic, with Una Metz revealing that women’s household incomes typically fall by 41% following a divorce ([21:18]). This substantial decrease underscores the importance of financial planning and awareness for women contemplating divorce. Una advises, “Make sure you have the passwords… sit down every so often and just talk about… what’s our current status… Where’s our money?” ([22:07]). Establishing financial independence and clear communication about finances within the marriage can mitigate some of these challenges.

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Cheating as a Tactic to Exit Relationships

Reshma and Una discuss infidelity as a common strategy used to initiate divorce, particularly by men. Una Metz points out, “If one person breaks the rules, they’re leaving the marriage. But these guys don’t end the marriage” ([18:35]). She explains that while women are more likely to initiate divorce, men often do so indirectly through actions like cheating, which creates an unsustainable rift without formally ending the marriage.

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Impact of Divorce on Children

Addressing concerns about children, Una Metz clarifies that it’s not divorce per se that harms children, but rather the conflict and tension that often accompany it. She states, “What’s really bad for kids is living with conflict” ([34:55]). Chronic arguments, whether overt (“hot war”) or subtle (“cold war”), can be detrimental to a child’s emotional well-being. Una recommends maintaining open communication with children about the divorce process to help them understand and cope with the changes.

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The Silence and Stigma Around Divorce

Despite its prevalence, divorce remains a stigmatized and isolating experience for many. Una Metz observes, “50% of marriages end in divorce… we still have a long way to go to talk about it” ([40:44]). The societal pressure to remain married can prevent individuals from seeking the support they need. Una emphasizes the importance of finding supportive communities and professional help to navigate the emotional turmoil of divorce.

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Advice for Post-Divorce Life and Dating

Transitioning to life after divorce involves significant self-discovery and healing. Una Metz advises, “It’s really important for women going through divorce to date themselves first before they date somebody else” ([43:51]). This involves understanding one’s own needs, desires, and identity separate from the marriage. Reshma echoes this sentiment, highlighting the transformation that often accompanies midlife divorces and the opportunity it presents for personal growth.

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Support Systems and Healing

Una underscores the necessity of robust support systems during and after divorce. She advocates for therapy, participation in support groups, and building a network of understanding friends. “Make sure that you have support, make sure that you have a team, make sure you have a therapist” ([41:58]). These resources provide emotional backing and practical guidance, facilitating a healthier transition to single life.

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Differences in Couples: Heteronormative vs. Queer Couples

The conversation also touches on how divorce dynamics can differ in queer couples compared to heteronormative ones. Una Metz notes, “With queer couples, it doesn’t mean… they are better at negotiating and at having equal amounts of work” ([27:58]). Queer couples often engage in more explicit negotiations about household responsibilities and relationship expectations from the outset, potentially reducing the power imbalances that can lead to marital strain.

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Final Takeaways

As the episode concludes, Una Metz imparts a message of hope and resilience: “If you are willing to kind of do the work of figuring out who you are and who you want to be, you will get to the other side. And many, many people are happier when they’re on the other side of divorce than they were in an unhappy marriage” ([45:28]). This powerful endorsement encourages listeners to view divorce not merely as an end, but as an opportunity for personal rejuvenation and improved well-being.

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Notable Quotes

• Una Metz: “Don’t bring up divorce unless you’re absolutely serious” ([06:28]).
• Una Metz: “Any kind of differences… it’s about how you negotiate those differences” ([04:19]).
• Una Metz: “What’s really bad for kids is living with conflict” ([34:55]).
• Una Metz: “If you are willing to kind of do the work of figuring out who you are and who you want to be, you will get to the other side” ([45:28]).
• Reshma Saujani: “I solemnly swear to never drop the D word divorce during a fight” ([46:35]).

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Conclusion

This episode offers a profound exploration of midlife divorce, blending personal anecdotes with expert advice. Una Metz provides a nuanced understanding of the emotional, financial, and social complexities involved, while Reshma Saujani brings relatable experiences and heartfelt inquiries. Together, they create a supportive dialogue that empowers listeners to navigate their own midlife transitions with resilience and informed insight.

Transcript

[Reshma Sajani]

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[Una Metz]

No one in my family has ever been divorced and it's very frowned upon. I was scared. I married him when I was young.

[Reshma Sajani]

Because society tells you after college. Next is marriage. Women are not taught how to leave, we are taught to stay. I didn't want my kids to be.

[Una Metz]

Split between two households. I couldn't imagine anything worse. I saw it as failure.

[Reshma Sajani]

Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. Divorce. It's a big topic and as you heard, so many women have big feelings about it. Did you know that most women get divorced in their midlife? That's why I had to get today's guest on the show. She taught me so much about how I can fight better with my husband and why I should never bring up divorce unless I really fucking mean it. Una Metz is a psychotherapist, writer and speaker, and she hosts weekly meetups for women who are contemplating divorce. Over the past 30 years, she's learned a lot, and that's why she's writing a book about it called Thriving before, during and After Divorce. The book doesn't publish until 2026, but I got a sneak peek and I absolutely Devoured it. There's so much good stuff in there, y'all. So let's get into it. Oona, welcome to the.

[Una Metz]

I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me on the show.

[Reshma Sajani]

So I wanted to ask you, tell me one thing that may have happened to you last week that made you feel your age, where you felt so middle aged.

[Una Metz]

Ooh, can it be every morning when I get out of bed and I kind of stumble to the bathroom? Yeah. It takes a little while to feel like I can walk again like a normal person.

[Reshma Sajani]

I totally get it, though. I do go to bathroom like five times during. During the nighttime, which is very my middle age thing. So I want to jump right in. Are there any signs you see in couples that signal that the marriage is just going to fail?

[Una Metz]

I think in the old days, meaning like 20 or 30 years ago, the old days, the research on couples therapy was that if you had. If there were differences in your marriage, you were more likely to fail. And that's not true anymore. Now the research shows is it's not about the differences. It's about how you negotiate those differences.

[Reshma Sajani]

What does differences mean when they say that?

[Una Metz]

Oh, any kind of differences. Differences in how much you want to talk about things versus not. Differences in how clean you want the house versus not. Differences in how you view what monogamy means to you. Difference. I mean, all kinds of differences. Differences in values. All of those differences that happen in a marriage, naturally, it would be very boring to be in a marriage where two people are exactly alike, Right?

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah.

[Una Metz]

And so how you negotiate those differences, how you like learning how to fight well, is a huge skill and really helps couples.

[Reshma Sajani]

So my parents fought all the time. You know, they had come to this country in their 20s. They didn't know the language. My mother had an arranged marriage. They didn't have any friends. They didn't speak. You know, they didn't have family, all of it. They were completely displaced. They came here as refugees.

[Una Metz]

Yeah.

[Reshma Sajani]

And as a kid, I just used to remember just laying in my bed and just listening to them fight and fight and fight. And I would lay there and I would think, God, can you just get a divorce already? But they didn't. Because, you know, in Indian culture, you. The divorce rates are like, you know, nothing. Like, you don't do it right. You just. You stick it out.

[Una Metz]

Stick it out. Yep.

[Reshma Sajani]

And what's fascinating now, Una, is like, my father's about to turn 79, my mother's 76. They are thick as thieves. Best friends you know, they still bicker. Right. So, you know, it goes to your point about one. You know, we have this feeling like, again, we always say my husband. And our love language is fighting, too. We bicker. Right. And I always try to tell my son because I think he's terrified that that means we're going to get a divorce. That, like, this is kind of how we communicate and so is fighting an indication that you should get divorced?

[Una Metz]

Not necessarily. I think it really depends on the kind of fighting you're doing. I think there's a way to fight clean and there's a way to fight dirty. Right.

[Reshma Sajani]

What is that?

[Una Metz]

Well, one of the things I always tell people is, like, don't bring up divorce unless you're absolutely serious. And don't ever bring it up in a fight, like. And don't say the words like, that's it. I'm done. You know, in a fight.

[Reshma Sajani]

Kind of my favorite thing to say.

[Una Metz]

It is, well, maybe your husband is so used to it now, he knows that it's not actually true.

[Reshma Sajani]

No. It terrifies him.

[Una Metz]

Okay, well, it's. Yeah, yeah. So maybe that's something you can work on.

[Reshma Sajani]

No, but now, Una, thank you. That's my tip. I will not say that anymore.

[Una Metz]

Maybe I'll get a little letter from your husband saying, thank you. But I think, you know, fighting dirty means doing things like saying, that's it, I'm done. You know, slamming door, like, being in any way kind of physically violent, like slamming doors, walking out without telling the other person where you're going or when you'll be back. Name calling, insulting, you know, getting really down and dirty.

[Reshma Sajani]

And that's what we have to, like, not do. That's. That's what is good fighting. So, no, those are things you shouldn't do. What are things you should do when you're fighting?

[Una Metz]

I think good fighting is really about being able to disagree and understand that you're going to disagree. Like any marriage, there's going to be disagreements, of course, but is there a way to do it without it getting so heated, without it getting onto other topics and with people being able to really listen to each other rather than just getting into a really defensive mode? Because so often, you know, if somebody brings up. If your spouse brings up an issue, the first thing you might want to do is think of something they've done right instead of listening?

[Reshma Sajani]

I'm always doing that. I'm always thinking about my response without listening to what he has to say.

[Una Metz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Reshma Sajani]

You know, here's the thing. We have A great couple therapists. I love her.

[Una Metz]

Okay.

[Reshma Sajani]

But these are the things that she's also made. I mean, she's kind of says a lot of that point too. And I think when you're a talker and not a listener, it's harder. And I'm a talker.

[Una Metz]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So your task is to work on your listening skills rather than your talking skills.

[Reshma Sajani]

I will say, though, implementing this tactic of like, stop thinking about what you want to say next and listening has helped us argue less.

[Una Metz]

Uh huh. Uh huh.

[Reshma Sajani]

Okay. So I. So oftentimes, I think my husband and I both feel like our bickering builds resiliency with the kids. Right. Because, you know, like, life's not perfect. Like in. I think that's right. I see a lot of people who don't fight in front of their kids, and then, you know, they separate and get divorced and their kids are like, what? Or their kids don't know how to resolve or manage conflict.

[Una Metz]

It's really important for kids to know how to resolve conflict. But there is a difference between the kind of constant bickering versus having a disagreement and resolving it.

[Reshma Sajani]

What if bickering is your love language like mine? Una's like, let me have a piece of the both of you.

[Una Metz]

I think, I think it also depends what I mean. There's bickering. That can be a love language. That can be kind of just the way that one communicates.

[Reshma Sajani]

That's ours. Like, people are always like, you guys should have a reality show. Like, it's. It's kind of how we poke each other. We're, you know, like, it's like how we. It's like, you know, it's sad, but it's kind of like two kids in like a schoolyard. When you pull your braids and you're like, it's cause I love you, you know?

[Una Metz]

Right, right.

[Reshma Sajani]

So like my couples therapist once said, like, most couples fight over one thing. And it is true. In my marriage with Nihal. Right. There is one thing that we really fight about.

[Una Metz]

Yep.

[Reshma Sajani]

And are divorces the same? Do like most couples, I guess, do they divorce over the one thing that they were fighting about because they couldn't reconcile it?

[Una Metz]

Sometimes, yes, but sometimes it's more like death by a thousand cuts, you know, Tell me more. I mean, sometimes there's a particular theme, you know, one particular theme. Like, say, so I work in the Boston area, and the women that I see, the heterosexual women I see, many of them are married to men who have a lot of degrees. You know, we have a lot of schooling here in Boston, Right. There's a lot of colleges and a lot of universities. And so I see a lot of women who are married to very educated men who are unemployed, who are, who are, have chronic unemployment. Right? And so that may be something they really fight about a lot and then eventually divorce over.

[Reshma Sajani]

And what are they fighting about there? They're just disappointed that they don't get a job. The husbands are frustrated because they can't find work. Like, what, what is, what are they fighting about?

[Una Metz]

They're fighting about the fact that they made an agreement that they were both going to work. And now the husband is not working, but also not picking up the slack at home.

[Reshma Sajani]

Right.

[Una Metz]

Like, it would be one thing if he wasn't working, but he's also not picking up the slack, you know, because of, perhaps because of depression, because of adhd, because of some diagnosis maybe, but also not getting treated for it.

[Reshma Sajani]

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[Una Metz]

So the average age is 44, which doesn't mean everybody's getting, obviously, you know that it doesn't mean everybody's getting divorced at 44. What I see a lot is women in their 50s. And what I see is women whose kids have, they're, they've done a lot of parenting. They have two, three kids and maybe one or two of the kids is off at college and another one's in high school. And they're thinking about what's next. And the parenting is really what's kept them in the marriage. So once the parenting gets done, they kind of are looking at each other like, what do we have now? And I think we live in such a busy, busy time, and as parents, we're expected to do so much for our kids that there's very little time to like, invest in the marriage left over if you have kids. Right. And so a lot of times people have not invested at all. They've invested a lot in their kids, but they haven't invested in their marriage. And they get to that point where they look around and they think, I don't want to do this anymore.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, I found that so interesting that women initiate divorce right. 70% of the time. And what I was surprised by this is because I also think as women, we are risk averse and we tend to avoid failure. So I would have actually thought that men were more comfortable kind of ending one of the most seminal, most important decisions that they've made because they're more comfortable with failure. Can you explain this paradox?

[Una Metz]

Oh, I'd love to. So here's a crazy thing. Women initiate divorce 70% of the time. But the more educated they are, the higher that number goes. So women with college degrees or advanced degrees are more like 80 to 90% of the divorce initiators. And here's what I think. I have two things I want to say about that. One is, I think in relationships in general, women initiate things. They're more active. Right. So they initiate marriage. Right. They initiate relationships. They're more invested in relationships. They're more invested in marriage. They're more invested in the wedding. They're more invested in making the marriage work. And then they also are the ones to initiate the divorce. But here is the reason why. I'll tell you the reason why. There's a bit. If we think about this, there's a really big difference between ending a marriage and leaving a marriage. When you get married, you and your spouse have these spoken and unspoken rules about how marriage is going to work, how your marriage specifically is going to work. Right. And if one person, and in heterosexual marriages, let's say if the man breaks those rules, those spoken or unspoken rules about fidelity, about financial abuse, about both people working, about child care, about being respectful to each other. Right. If one person breaks those rules, in some ways they're leaving the marriage. But then these guys don't end the marriage.

[Reshma Sajani]

So. Fascinating.

[Una Metz]

Because you know what? Marriage works for men. Marriage works much better for men than it does for women. And so eventually, the woman who's been trying and trying and trying to make this marriage work has to give up. She's backed into a corner, and the only thing she can do is to end the marriage, even though the man has already left.

[Reshma Sajani]

That was a story that you tell in your book about the couple. She finds out he's cheating. Right. With a co, you know, with somebody at his office.

[Una Metz]

Yep.

[Reshma Sajani]

He promises to break it up. They do all the things. The couples counseling, they're on, you know, their vacation to celebrate, and she sees a text come in. He actually never cut it off.

[Una Metz]

That's right.

[Reshma Sajani]

So how common is cheating as, like, a tactic to leave the relationship? And is it more for men?

[Una Metz]

I think the research varies on this. I. What I see in my practice, I work with all women, so I see that many, many, many of them are there because their husbands have cheated on them. It's a very common tactic. And especially now with technology and phones and work trips and so on and so forth. Yeah.

[Reshma Sajani]

You know, the great news is we're talking a lot about menopause and perimenopause and the role of hormones.

[Una Metz]

Yes.

[Reshma Sajani]

So it's interesting, right. I want to go back to that stat.44 is the average age, but you really say you see a lot happening. 50ish. That's kind of also when you're in that perimenopause menopause stage.

[Una Metz]

That's right.

[Reshma Sajani]

How do you know if, like, your desire to get a divorce is just a result of my hormones changing? How do I know it's not a phase?

[Una Metz]

Oh, I wish there was a little test we could take.

[Reshma Sajani]

Like a pregnancy test, right?

[Una Metz]

Yeah, exactly. What is it? It. So the question is, how do you know if it's menopause or if it's your spouse raging hormones that's driving you crazy? Well, one thing is to go to your doctor with that article and be treated for your menopause. Right. And I think the other thing is women. The women I have seen, and I've seen literally hundreds of women through the process of divorce. Nobody does it impulsively. And so I think really taking the time to do your own inner work and figure out taking the time to do couples work and really try as much as you can to improve your relationship, you know, and then also making sure that there isn't a hormonal, you know, issue or an issue about depression. Right. Or some other diagnosis that could be treated.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah. I want to talk about money. So women are the ones who initiate divorce the most, but they're also the ones that are hit the most financially. This is another thing I found fascinating. Right. Women's household income falls by 41%. Wow. Average following a divorce or separation. So does that mean we just shouldn't get divorced until after 50? Like, are we just safer if we wait till then?

[Una Metz]

Well, there is a huge financial impact on divorce, and that's one of the things people really need to take a look at if they're thinking about divorce. Divorce, you know, how are they going to support themselves? Especially if they are women who have. If there's less either joint income or less personal income. And sometimes that is the reason that women wait until midlife to get divorced, because they're also waiting until they're financially on their feet again. But even though they're financially not as well off. There is a ton of research that shows that women tend to be much happier than men when they get divorced. And they're oftentimes there's like a 75% of women do not regret their decision.

[Reshma Sajani]

Even though they might be financially less well off.

[Una Metz]

Yes, that's right.

[Reshma Sajani]

Which is so interesting. Also, I should know more about our family finances than I do.

[Una Metz]

I mean, it's very natural in marriages that we kind of divide up responsibilities. Right. And one, it's not that we should be equal with every single aspect. Right. It's not that we should be 50, 50 with cooking and 5050 with dishwashing and 50, 50 with finances and 50, 50 with taking the garbage out. It's more that it should be more equal or 50, 50 with all of the tasks combined. And so if your husband is really good at finances, then, you know, let him do the finances. But. But, you know, also make sure that you have the passwords. Make sure that you have. You sit down every so often and just talk about, you know, what's. What is our current status? You know, where. Where. Where's our money?

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah.

[Una Metz]

You know, how much do we have? Where are our investments?

[Reshma Sajani]

And. And. And kind of get over, I think women, we've. And I'll say this for myself, like, I have a funny relationship with money. It makes me feel uncomfortable. And I think it's like. It just. It. It. Like shifts that. So talking about division of labor.

[Una Metz]

Yeah.

[Reshma Sajani]

As you said in your blog, one of the causes of divorce is the unequal division of labor. In the US Women do two thirds of the unpaid labor. This is on top of the fact that we are the only country that doesn't have paid leave or affordable childcare.

[Una Metz]

Yep.

[Reshma Sajani]

Solving this is a huge part of what I do at Moms First. In other countries, there are social services like paid leave and childcare, but in the US there's moms.

[Una Metz]

Yep.

[Reshma Sajani]

So I think about this daily. And so what happens is that, you know, for. And this is true even for working mothers. Right. That they get an average of 30 minutes of downtime a day while working fathers get an average of four hours a day. So I always be like, I don't even have time to have a midlife crisis. Right. Because it's like, I'm doing all the things like.

[Una Metz]

Right.

[Reshma Sajani]

And it creates an enormous amount of unhappiness. Right. Because it's like you just don't have time.

[Una Metz]

That's right.

[Reshma Sajani]

And so. And I think about what brought Nahal and I to couples counseling was when, you know, my first son was born.

[Una Metz]

Mm.

[Reshma Sajani]

Oh. How motherhood opens up the inequality. Your eyes up to the inequality in a way that you would never have seen it before. And here I am, I'm still building girls with code. I'm breastfeeding my son. I've taken more paid leave than he has. And I'm like, I'm doing everything like, what is this shit? And I am just mad all the time. And, you know, I think for us couples constantly really helped us figure out how to address the imbalances. And I think this is something that really rings true. And it goes back to the point of, like, one of the big reasons of divorce is because you feel like your husband's a damn child.

[Una Metz]

That's right.

[Reshma Sajani]

Because you never get that ratio back. Like, in everything, though, you've seen, though, is it inevitable that there's going to be this imbalance?

[Una Metz]

Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I mean, it is true that many, many marriages have that imbalance. And certainly the divorces I've seen, I have not seen anybody who comes to me because they're getting divorced and things were equal in their homes, that's for sure. But no, I think it really warrants talking very much upfront with somebody with that you're going to get married to about what you. What your expectations are, you know, and it's hard because you can always say, oh, of course we're going to be. I mean, most people say, of course we're going to be equal when they get married. Right. But then that first baby arrives and suddenly it's not. And it's hard to say, well, you. We said it was going to be equal. But it can be. It can be, but it's harder. Yeah.

[Reshma Sajani]

I mean, and if you think about it, like, you know, when we're going on vacation, like, guess who's packing all the things? Like, and I often look at my. I'm like, must be nice, right? Just to, like, pack your own shit and, like, walk to the car and not have to worry about, like, whether you brought the diapers or the kids froggies. And I think that, yeah, it's like, it's interesting because I think people always, you know, people will do the things that make it easier on them. Right. I found that when I was reading your new book that's coming out, the point that, like, oftentimes the number one reason why women get divorced is because they feel like their husband has turned into another child that they have to take care of. That really, really resonated with me and the women that I know.

[Una Metz]

Yes, Yes. I was just reading this morning, this study that was done that said actually when women get divorced, they get more sleep than when they were married. Wow. And they do less housework than when they were married. Like, that's crazy. Right?

[Reshma Sajani]

I can believe that.

[Una Metz]

I can believe that they are doing extra work for their husbands.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah. I have Literally stopped. I'll still do my husband's laundry, but I won't fold it.

[Una Metz]

That's your rebellion.

[Reshma Sajani]

It's like little things like that. I was like, I'm taking that extra five minutes. So I want to talk about how this might be different for queer couples. So Claire Kane Miller had told me something very interesting about when she had looked into this, because the big question is, is it always going to be this way? Right. And you can often look at queer couples to see if it could be different, if there's a better world that we could build. Right, that's right. And what was fascinating is it is different for, you know, for same sex couples because like said, they pre negotiate it, they have a conversation and the default isn't the woman.

[Una Metz]

That's right. That's right. And it's. And with queer couples, it doesn't mean again that they're splitting every single task exactly 50, 50. But they are better at negotiating and at being having equal amounts of work.

[Reshma Sajani]

So if you're comfortable, I'd love to talk to you about how you made your decision to separate from your partner. Like, how did you know it was time?

[Una Metz]

You know, we, we didn't get married at 21, but we got married at 30. I was very, very invested in having a family. She was less invested in that. And I think we were also different kinds of people. And I think my investment in having a family being so, having such urgency about having a family made me really overlook a lot of the differences. And so when the differences kind of came to light, I knew at that point we tried to repair and we couldn't. And so I knew it was time to go at that point.

[Reshma Sajani]

How much is it that like, you know, oftentimes I feel like as women we don't listen to our gut because we're such taught to be such people pleasers or do the right thing that even when we know deep inside like this relationships, it's over.

[Una Metz]

That's right. That's right. Sometimes when we don't listen to our gut, that's sometimes when our body will start to tell us. That's sometimes when you'll start to feel like for some reason you can't sleep anymore, you've got a chronic headache, you've got a stomach ache all the time, you know, but it is. And there's so much societal pressure to have the big wedding and be married and stay married. Right. I mean, even though, you know, it's like 43% of first marriages end in divorce.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, it's so interesting. I have a lot of friends that are mid-40s and not married and they feel like such failures. Right. Like and they're not. And like but like culturally we have all these things that we tell you about finding true love and marriage being like the thing that completes you. And and it's often not right.

[Una Metz]

Right. But it feels like it is when you're not in that when you're single. Right. Or when you're looking y.

[Reshma Sajani]

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[Una Metz]

Right. I mean, if you're in a really bad marriage and you have little kids, waiting till they go to college is going to be a long slog. It's a lot of years to wait. So the old research on divorce with kids said divorce is bad and that's it. You know, divorce is just bad for kids. But the new research, what the new research shows is that conflict is what's bad for kids. So I think about you telling that story of listening to your parents fight, you know, being in your bed and listening to your parents fight all the time and wishing that they would get a divorce. You know, it turns out that they ended up okay in the end. But that had an impact on you?

[Reshma Sajani]

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Una Metz]

Yeah. Yeah. And so what we know now is that what's really bad for kids is living with conflict, even the kind of tension that goes underground. Like sometimes people, I like to say some marriages, when they're not doing well, they're in a hot war and sometimes they're in a cold war. And there's sometimes a cold war where people aren't speaking to each other or there's a lot of tension. They may not be fighting outright, but there's a lot you can feel the tension. And that's not good for kids.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah.

[Una Metz]

And that doesn't mean if you, if you fight once in front of your kids, you're going to damage them. But if there's a chronic situation of conflict, that's not good for kids.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah. If you fight in front of your kids, should you make up in front of them too?

[Una Metz]

Yes. Or you should at least tell them that you've made up or talk to them about what happened so that they can kind of understand it and understand that their parents are better now. It didn't just magically happen. You could say something general like, you know what, I just want to let you know you, I know you overheard that fight last night, but we did did talk it out and we realized that there was kind of a misunderstanding between us or, you know, you know how we can get kind of hot headed sometimes. But we did work it out in the end.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah. You wrote this article about Reese Witherspoon's divorce post and about how it was filled with like respect and kindness. And you know, it's interesting, like I grew up in the 80s, like Kramer versus Kramer. Right. Divorce was war.

[Una Metz]

War. Right.

[Reshma Sajani]

And now we live in the moment of like unconscious uncoupling and Reese Witherspoon spo and cohabitating. Right. I have friends who are like living together still in like a two story brown house. And it's just, it's, it's a different it feel. And again, I live in New York, so I don't know if it's just a New York thing, but it feels like it's a different, kinder time for divorce.

[Una Metz]

I don't think so.

[Reshma Sajani]

I did preface it by saying I live in New York and it was referring to Brooklyn.

[Una Metz]

Yes. I think some people can manage it. I think some people can be amicable, but I think there's a lot of very, very difficult emotions that people go through with divorce. And I think divorce, for the bulk of people, it really brings out their worst personal qualities. And I can tell you, I mean, I don't know Reese Witherspoon and I wish her very well, but having celebrities that make these divorce announcements, like it's with great kindness and abundant love and wonderful cooperation that we've decided to divorce. Like, no, no, it's not like that doesn't serve any. I mean, maybe it serves her and her PR team and, you know, look, I don't, I don't expect that Reese or any other celebrity would be wanting to air their dirty laundry to the public. They Shouldn't. Absolutely not. But I think it doesn't serve people well when people kind of whitewash it in that way, because it is a painful. It's very painful process to go through, and people get through it. You know, people come out the other side and often feel much happier afterwards. You know, so many women come into my office and they're like, this is the worst possible thing that could have ever happened to me. And a year later or two years later, they say to me, you know, it turns out this is the best possible thing that ever could have happened to me. You know, so they really. It. I don't think there's a lot of happy divorces. I don't. I have not seen anybody going through conscious uncoupling.

[Reshma Sajani]

Oh, I love your honesty. I think there's a lot of people listening that are like, wait, what's wrong with my divorce? Like, we're ready to kill each other, and you feel like you're doing divorce wrong. Just like everything else, we feel like we're doing wrong in midlife. So I really appreciate you saying that.

[Una Metz]

Yeah.

[Reshma Sajani]

Once you decide to get a divorce, communicating it is really hard. Like, what's your advice on how you tell family and friends and co workers?

[Una Metz]

I really see that if you can kind of. Well, first of all, I think it is a really hard thing to do. And second of all, I think I really want to give people permission that they don't have to tell the whole story to everybody in their lives. It can be really hard to tell the story. And so coming up with, like, what are you going to tell, you know, the mom you see on the soccer field, who you might be friendly, but you just see her on the soccer field. And so, you know, you're just going to say, we've been struggling for a long time. We tried to make it work. And. But we're getting a divorce and we're doing okay. Right. Versus a much better friend where you might tell more of the details, or a family member that you might tell more of the details versus maybe your therapist or your best friend who you're going to tell everybody. Single thing, all the nitty gritty. Right. So really kind of thinking beforehand about, like, who those people are in each of those categories and coming up with your own little statement that you can have at the ready because people will ask and people have opinions.

[Reshma Sajani]

Right. I want to talk about the silence around divorce. Right. 30 million people in America are divorced, and the peak divorce rate was in 1977. But people still feel when they decide when they make that decision that they're in an island by themselves, like, why is divorce even today as more, I think 50% of Americans are divorced, like, why is it so stigmatized?

[Una Metz]

Yeah, it's. I have to say, it's a, it can be a very isolating experience. And so women, when they come. So I run three different divorce groups a week, and when women come to me and they want to be in my divorce group, they say to me, how is it possible that 50% of marriages end in divorce? And I don't know anybody going through it right now. And I think that we still have a long way to go to talk about it for people to be able to talk about it. And I think it can be a really isolating experience. And I think one of the reasons that people really want to come to my groups is because they want to be with a group of people who really get it right. And they may have family members or friends who are really well meaning and want to support them and they just don't get it in the same way that somebody going through divorce gets it. So my biggest advice for people if they are going through divorce is to make sure that you have support, make sure that you have a team, make sure you have a therapist. It's going to be really, really difficult, really stressful, really heartbreaking to go through it.

[Reshma Sajani]

You know, when we, if we get divorced and we know that the decision is right, but we miss the idea of marriage. We miss the stability that we have of comfort and companionship and identity. Like, what, what's your advice in dealing with that?

[Una Metz]

Yeah, it's, it can be such a huge change in identity. And I also find that a lot of women who come to me are like, I don't really miss my spouse per se, but I really miss having a person or I really miss being in a couple. And I think helping them to understand, like, what exactly are they missing? Are they missing? And then really drilling down, like, what about being in a couple? Do you miss, do you miss going out to dinner on Saturday nights? Because that we can solve for. Right. You can create a community where you have people you can go out to dinner with on Saturday nights. Or is it that you miss, you know, somebody who's going to fix your kitchen sink? Because we can fix that. We can get, we can find you a plumber. Right? Right. Who can do that. Or do you miss having somebody to talk to about what's happening with your kids? And can you find a friend where your friend says, I want you to Text me every time your kid scores a goal or every time your kid gets an A in math or every. You know, so how. How do we kind of solve for that? And. And then there's also the whole issue about dating, you know, after divorce and what happens there, or getting into a new relationship or, you know, and that's a whole other topic, Right?

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah. Yeah. What's your advice on that for people who are trying to get back out there? I mean, I heard, like, these apps suck, you know, and, like, oftentimes they were, you know, my generation, you just met somebody at a bar, right? Like, I can't even imagine having to, like, be unswiped or whatever the hell it's called, you know, at 48.

[Una Metz]

Right, right, right. Yeah. That. It is happening on the apps right now. I have a couple pieces of advice. One piece of advice is, I think it's really important for women going through divorce to date themselves first before they date somebody else. Because, again, I think in a marriage, women especially get so accustomed to figuring out what everybody else in their life needs. Their spouse, their kids, their work, their. Everybody. And they. They don't pay enough attention about what they need and what they want. And if they jump right, right into a new relationship, they may miss that step of really figuring out who they are and. And what they want. So it can be like a whole new identity piece. After divorce, a lot of women tell me, like, they get divorced at 55. They've been married for 30 years. It's almost like they feel like they're 25 again. Right. In terms of dating, in terms of identity. But it does give this incredible opportunity to kind of figure out, again, what it is that you want to do, what it is that you. How you want to spend your time, who you want to be, how you want to dress, what you want to eat. I mean, even the little things, right, that make up who we are. Yeah.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, I love that. And I think that's so midlife, right. Figuring out who you are and what you want. So, on that note, just to wrap, what's the one piece of advice that you want people listening to this to leave with?

[Una Metz]

Well, I think if you're facing divorce, what I want you to know is that it is really hard. Despite what the celebrities say. It's heartbreaking, it's stressful, it's hard. But if you are willing to kind of do the work of figuring out who you are and who you want to be, you will get to the other side. And many, many, many people are happier when they're on the other side of divorce than they were in an unhappy marriage. So this can be you too.

[Reshma Sajani]

Thank you, Una. This was such an awesome conversation. I feel like you gave us so much and it's such a blessing because I think it's a hard. It's a hard. Divorce is hard.

[Una Metz]

It's really hard.

[Reshma Sajani]

And I think you gave people some solace. So I'm grateful to you. Thank you so much.

[Una Metz]

Thank you Reshmos. Great to be here.

[Reshma Sajani]

Luna Metz is a psychotherapist, writer and speaker. Keep an eye out for her amazing book Thriving before, during and After Divorce coming out in 2026. And lastly, I solemnly swear to never drop the D word divorce during a fight. You hear me, Nahal? We're in this for life, baby. There's more of my so Called Midlife with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Midlife advice that didn't make it into the show. Subscribe now. In Apple Podcasts, I'm your host, Reshpa Sajani. Our producer is Claire Jones. This series is sound design by Ivan Korayev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Karaev and performed by Ryan Jewell, Ivan Koraev, and Karen Waltok. Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lepore. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittleswax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this [e-mail] midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye.

[C]

Why hello there. This is your pal Sarah Silverman. You know, the standup comic that's not afraid of a diarrhea joke. Oh my God, I'm so brave. I hope you're enjoying this podcast that you're listening to. I am just dropping in here to let you know about another podcast I think you'd like, and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life. Anything. They're silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situations. And then I respond, whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead. Search for the Sarah Silverman Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Reshma Sajani]

Bye.

[C]

Hey friends It's Meghan Trainor and her.

[Reshma Sajani]

Big bro Ryan Trainor and her husband Daryl Sabara.

[C]

Each week on our podcast Working on It, we share behind the scenes stories and bring you into our hilarious and heartfelt conversations. And sometimes with amazing guests, we tackle.

[Reshma Sajani]

Everything from navigating Hollywood to mental health to Megan becoming a mother, Daryl becoming a father, and so much more.

[C]

We'll get into the nitty gritty of our lives and leave no detail behind. Prepare to laugh, cry, and hopefully learn something new.

[Reshma Sajani]

Listen to new episodes out every Wednesday.

[Una Metz]

Wherever you get your podcasts.