← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
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- [00:01]
Reshma Sajani
From Leon Moriarty, author of Big Little Lies, comes the number one bestseller, Hear One Moment. An ordinary flight, a routine trip until something extraordinary happens. Each passenger learns how and when they'll die. The story unfolds in a powerful exploration of destiny, love and control in an unpredictable world perfect for book clubs. Here, One Moment will leave you asking, what would you do if you knew? Don't miss Hear One Moment by Leon Moriarty Available now wherever books and audiobooks are sold. This show is brought to you by Spark Leaders looking to support causes that matter to you but don't know where to start. Say hello to Spark Leaders, your new go to platform for creating meaningful change. SPARK lets you donate to approved charities securely and effortlessly. Whether you're passionate about LGBTQIA rights, racial justice or education inequality, Spark provides the tools to amplify your impact, connecting you directly with organizations making a difference. Find your Spark Donate directly Share the gift of change. Join us today and be part of something bigger. Let's ignite change together. SparkLeaders.org Lemonada.
- [01:24]
Cheryl Strayed
In midlife, I'm realizing I want to do things that are in.
- [01:29]
Reshma Sajani
Alignment with my needs and that's new for me.
- [01:35]
Cheryl Strayed
No guilt, more fun. I need a break and I deserve it.
- [01:39]
Reshma Sajani
So there's that.
- [01:40]
Cheryl Strayed
I want to stop giving a shit what people think about me. And in midlife, I have finally given myself permission to do that.
- [01:52]
Reshma Sajani
Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. The further I get into this series, the more I understand that asking for what you want and putting aside any fears or shame you have about doing that, that that may be the key to a more fulfilled midlife. But doing that is really fucking hard. For years, people have written letters to today's guests asking her how to ask for what they want, and Cheryl strayed she's the right person to answer them because she had to do a lot of soul searching herself to figure out the same thing. And she did that at 26 years old. You might already know Cheryl's story from her award winning memoir, Wild, or from her ongoing Dear Sugar advice column. Her mom died when she was 22, and in the years following she experienced what some might call a quarter life crisis. And so she got up one day and she just hiked 1100 miles of the Pacific Crest Trail to find her way back to herself. I wanted to talk to Cheryl because if she was able to make it through that when she was so young, then I thought her midlife was probably a breeze, but what I learned is that that's not really true. I think one of the biggest lessons I took away from Cheryl is that every era is gonna have its peaks and valleys, and learning to accept that is really where the work is. We also talked about menopause and people pleasing and why women cheat, and Cheryl had some great insights. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Let's get into it.
- [03:44]
Cheryl Strayed
Hi.
- [03:45]
Reshma Sajani
Hi. How are you?
- [03:47]
Cheryl Strayed
Good. How are you?
- [03:48]
Reshma Sajani
I'm good.
- [03:49]
Cheryl Strayed
I've been listening to the podcast and loving it. And the episode I'm listening to right now is the Emily Oster one. And at the beginning, you're like, telling your kids to be quiet, so I feel your pain. My kids are gone now, so, I mean, not gone gone.
- [04:04]
Reshma Sajani
I saw. They're older, right? Yeah. They're both in college, right?
- [04:08]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah, as of last month, they're both in college.
- [04:10]
Reshma Sajani
So I know everyone's like, you'll like. Mine are four and nine. They're like, no, no, no, you'll enjoy it. You know, you'll miss this period. And I was like, okay, if you say so. My little one has literally been pooping in his diaper every night. So it's been like this, like, at 4 in the morning, this, like, panic, you know, of like. Anyway, so. Sorry, tmi, too much information.
- [04:30]
Cheryl Strayed
No, it's not. I mean, honestly, the best stories. My theory of. Of life is the best stories are always poop stories. I mean, I promise you, at any dinner party, I know this is inappropriate conversation, but at any dinner party, if you are like, okay, we're gonna go around the table and everyone's gonna tell a story about poop. You know, everyone will have a story and you'll all be, you know, you'll. Speaking of poop, you'll be peeing your pants, laughing.
- [04:56]
Reshma Sajani
All right, that's my next dinner party. I'm gonna do that. So on this show, we talk a lot about midlife, and we talk a lot about the midlife mindset. And it varies for everybody. Some people are like, fuck yeah. Best time of my life. And other people are like, oh, my God, this sucks. So I want to ask you, Cheryl, where do you land? What's your midlife mindset?
- [05:19]
Cheryl Strayed
Well, first of all, what I've. One thing that midlife has taught me, or I guess a better way to say it, is a wisdom that I've really reached in midlife, is that there is no such thing as the best time in your life. Really. You know, That I think when I look back, I am 56. And when I think about a lot of times, people will be like, well, what was your best decade? What was your favorite decade? And instantly, I think, well, every decade of my life has contained real sorrow, real loss, real trauma and real joy, real profound growth and transformation and satisfaction. And I think that is such a better way to think about life, is it's not best and worst. One thing I always say is, you know, our job here is to evolve, and we can't evolve with only suffering, and we can't evolve with only joy. So in the end, we're grateful to have both in all areas of our lives.
- [06:20]
Reshma Sajani
It's so powerful. You say that. I always often say, I'm like, God, don't give me everything right now. I don't want it all right now. Like, I want, like you said, to have this life of longing, of wanting, of celebrating. Like, all of it.
- [06:34]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah.
- [06:35]
Reshma Sajani
Is there something, though, in your 50s that you've discovered that's been a game changer for you?
- [06:40]
Cheryl Strayed
Oh, gosh. I mean, I would say my 50s, so much has changed and transformed. There are two decades in my life that I would say I had to really, really grow in a way that ended up being both incredibly painful and incredibly powerful. My 20s, when my mom died, barely in middle age, at the age of 45, and I needed to learn how to live in the world without her, which felt unbearable and felt impossible. And then in my 50s, when I was raising two teenagers during the pandemic, and it was very hard, and I was brought to such depths of sorrow and fear and grief that, you know, are nearly comparable to what I went through in losing my mom. You know, that there were so many difficult times where I had to do that deep work of going all the way down to the core of who I am and asking myself those profound questions that you must ask yourself when you're forced to grow and you don't want to have to grow. And so, yeah, I would. You know, where am I at right now? I think that I'm in a decade of great transition. And it. And it has brought that stuff that I just mentioned, you know, a lot of joy and a lot of suffering. And to be able. I'm in the place of that cycle right now where, honestly, Reshma, I'm seeing it as a gift. I'm feeling really content and excited and happy at 56, and I feel kind of risen. I'm a few years past men, you know, into menopause now. I guess I Don't know if it's past. I'm in. I'm. I'm done. I'm not bleeding anymore. And I am entering a new. You know, I call this my crone age. When I was so. In the years of perimenopause, when I. When suddenly my period was becoming erratic, and I was like. And you have to kind of be like, okay, well, when. When does, you know, menopause officially starts?
- [08:46]
Reshma Sajani
Oh, I'm in the perimenopause. I totally feel you. Right, okay.
- [08:50]
Cheryl Strayed
So, you know, and it's like. It's like you're back to being, like, a teenager again, where you're. You're like, when's my period gonna come? I don't know. And that's like, every 12 days or every 49 days, you know? And so. But you're in menopause when you don't have your period for one whole year. And so when I was in this erratic stage of not knowing and not knowing, I downloaded this app called Big Day, and it's. You can enter any date. Like, let's say you're gonna go to Greece on July 1st. You can be like, trip to Greece, July 1st. You know, and you enter this date, and it's like, it gives you a countdown, like, how many days until, you know, this big day. And so, you know, when I was in my early 50s, like, 51, 52, I would. I would enter, like, when I got my period, and I would. And then I'd change the date to set it out, like, you know, for a year, A year, every year. And the title I gave that was crone age. Okay. So, like, I would enter crone age when it had been one year since I had my period. But then finally there was a day that it was my big day. A year came and went, and I had not had my period in that whole 365 days. And I met that day, and I was officially a crone. So here I am in my crone age, and I. Yeah, I'm. I'm. I don't know. I can't articulate for you yet, like, what that journey is, but I'm on it, and I'm going to take it, and I'm going to learn something big and new, and it's going to define me for this next era ahead.
- [10:31]
Reshma Sajani
I really love that perspective. You did mention your 20s, though, and I want to go back to that. Your mom passed in her 20s, and you kind of have your own version of a quarter life crisis. Your memoir, Wild From Lost to found on the Pacific Crest Trail is about how you picked up and left and hiked 1100 miles to just process all this pain. Can you talk about that time in your life and what brought you there?
- [10:57]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah. So, yeah, it was, as you say, a quarter life crisis. I think that's a real thing. I think part of it that, you know, many of us in our 20s were asking those questions. Who am I? What does my childhood mean? Where do I want to go? How do I want to be? And right. You know, when I was 22 and a senior in college, I lost my mother, who was not only my hero, but really my only parent. I, my father, I haven't had a relationship with him since I was 6. He was abusive in the time, you know, the short time he was in my life. My stepfather, who I did love as a father, couldn't continue to be a father to me and my siblings after our mother died. And so I was really genuinely an orphan. And it hurt and it was scary and I didn't know how to live in the world without my mom. And that's really true. And back there in my 20s, I, you know, I had always been an ambitious kid. I was, I grew up poor and working class, but not, you know, I always dreamed big. And after my mom died, I lost my way in my sorrow. I think that I, I thought I could honor my mom by ruining my life. And so I sort of self destructed. I sort of forgot for a bit who I was. And my hike, my decision to go hike 1100 miles on the Pacific Crest Trail was very much essentially, you know, I use that word risen. Just recently. It was me rising to myself again and seeing myself quite clearly and knowing that really, you know, the way to honor the people who loved us, the way for me to honor my mom would be for me to become the woman she raised me to be. And to do that, I had to, I had to find my way back to strength and power. I knew I had to do something alone. I knew I had to do something that would test me. And I had grown up in the wilderness of northern Minnesota. I knew the wilderness made me feel whole. And so that's how I came upon this decision to go on this journey.
- [13:04]
Reshma Sajani
And what did that teach you? What did having that quarter life crisis, riding wild, what are the lessons that you Learned in your 20s that kind of helped you? Now what you said was when you were essentially in your 50s, you have a similar moment where you feel like you need to rise.
- [13:23]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah, well, I think that the biggest thing that it taught me, and this doesn't necessarily seem like a word that's connected to rising, because when we think of rising, we think like, oh, you're there on the mountaintop. Right. But the word that I would say, the biggest lesson was about acceptance. It was about accepting that we can't live on the mountaintop. And also that even if we do get to that mountaintop sometimes in our lives, and we all do, then you keep walking and guess where you have to go. You have to descend, you have to walk through the valley again. You have to toil upward. And that, you know, that is about. That's acceptance. That part of life is those peaks and valleys. You know, the things that we end up feeling grateful for. Some of them are beautiful, easy, lovely. And some of them are miserable, hard, desperately painful things. And to accept all of that is, to me, I really, you know, the la. The last line of wild. You know, how wild it was to let it be. How wild it was to let it be. And that is, to me, about acceptance. It's saying how wild it is to let all of the things that are true about my life, the pretty things and the ugly things, the hard things and the easy things, how to let them all be true and claim them all as mine.
- [14:52]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. Can I ask you so. Because you brought it up. I'm so. Keep thinking about it. So I have several close friends who have recently lost a parent or are dealing with a parent who has cancer or Alzheimer's. Like, I'm in that age. Right. And it is undoing them or cracking them open. So how do you. What's your advice for women who are going through that grief of losing a parent at this stage of our life? And how do we prepare for the loss that we know is inevitably coming?
- [15:22]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah, I mean, I think there's no real way to prepare because there's nothing like losing a parent. And what you feel is all the stuff, all the many varied feelings. Positive, negative, sad, you know, whatever it is. Regret, remorse. One of the things that I always return to whenever anyone asks about how to prepare is actually to do the reverse and be here now and think about the ways that you can make whole what doesn't feel whole between you today. You know, don't wait for that deathbed moment. You might not get it. And you can't control other people. Right. You can only control yourself. And if you have something to say and maybe it's that you need an apology, you can, you know, solicit one that doesn't Mean, you're going to get one. But to be brave and vulnerable in ways that may be, you know, ultimately healing for you, even if in the end you don't get what you hope to get.
- [16:28]
Reshma Sajani
God, that's so hard.
- [16:29]
Cheryl Strayed
I know. It's so hard. You know, and so often, too, like, those things that we're asking for, you know, even if we ask for something, like, I remember I even wrote about this, you know, when my mom was dying. And yes, I was at a very different time in my life. I was in college. You know, I was a 22 year old. I remember just asking my mom, was I a good daughter? You know, which is sort of a ridiculous question. I knew my mother loved me. I knew she thought I was a good daughter. But was I? I needed her to say that over and over again. And even though she would, then when I asked her, she would say it, it wasn't really what I wanted. That wasn't really my question. My real question was, can you please stay? And I. I come up against this a lot in my work as Dear Sugar is that very often people have a question for me and that's not actually their question. The real question sits beneath the question they're brave enough to ask. And, you know, the reason I couldn't ask my mom, can you please stay? Is because I knew that the answer was, no, she couldn't. And that's one of the painful truths when we have to watch somebody die. And so, I mean, I think that in the end, what we all have to do is learn how to fill the holes made by, you know, our fathers and our mothers and anyone else who wounded us. We have to. We have to fill them ourselves, ultimately.
- [18:00]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This month, I'm taking time to recognize the people in my life who always show up, like my family, who's been a constant source of support. But I've realized it's just as crucial to show a little gratitude to myself for the effort I put in every day. Investing in your own mental health can be a meaningful way to do that. And that's where BetterHelp comes in. Therapy is a space to hit pause, reflect, and give yourself the attention you need. It's okay if reaching out feels intimidating. Sometimes we think we have it all together. But the truth is, therapy isn't about being perfect. It's about having someone to guide you, help you make sense of things, and give you tools to manage life's ups and downs. With BetterHelp, it's easy to find A therapist who understands you and can offer support wherever you are. Asking for help doesn't mean you're not strong. Prioritizing your mental health is one of the best ways to take care of yourself and show that you truly value your own well being. Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com midlifecrisist today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. Help. H E L P.com midlifecrisis spark something uncommon this holiday season with incredible handpicked gifts from Uncommon Goods. That's right. It's not too early to think about the holiday season and making it absolutely memorable for your loved ones. Uncommon Goods makes your holiday shopping stress free by scouring the globe for original, handmade and absolutely remarkable things for everyone on your list, they've officially found a way to tap into that. It's exactly what I wanted. Feeling Whether you're shopping for your Secret Santa or your entire family, Uncommon Goods knows exactly what they want. Here are a few of my favorite gifts that I found on their site. A book lover's Advent calendar. Such a good gift idea. They also have these adorable Christmas sweaters that you can can personalize with a photo of someone's dog. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com MidLife that's UncommonGoods.com MidLife for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods were all out of the ordinary. I want to talk about marriage and infidelity because that's a theme in Dear Sugar. Why do you think people cheat and is it different for women?
- [21:05]
Cheryl Strayed
That's an interesting question. I think people cheat because, just like they're human. I mean, I think that, and it's unfortunate that we, you know, I feel like we'd all be so much better at monogamy if we could just like from the get go be like, okay, listen people, this is actually, it's, it's doable, but it's challenging, you know. Right.
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Reshma Sajani
And it might not be perfect. I might not have like a perfect record here, but let's just get that out right in the beginning.
- [21:34]
Cheryl Strayed
Right? Well, and I mean, even with that, it's like, I mean, even if you do have a perfect record that it's, you know, the story we've been told from like way beginning, like where we're like at the fairy tales and everything, right? All the, you know, Disney movies or whatever, like that, that's like, that's the standard. That's the easy thing, that's what real love is. And that's what couples do. You know, they fall in love, they. And then they live happily ever after like that. It, like it literally just begins and ends in the same place. Right. And what we know from actual real relationships is even people who are monogamous. My husband and I have been together many years and we're monogamous. You know, that doesn't mean that there haven't been like, challenges along the way, you know, that, like, if we could just have a more honest conversation about human sexuality, which, which isn't inherently, you know, mate for life, that we could then more openly say, like, okay, let's, let's actually like, grapple with these things in a more honest way. I think more people would be successful. You know, most people do at some point in their lives, find themselves, you know, in the. When it comes to sexual, at odds with their own ethical code and morals. I know I certainly was in my first marriage. As I wrote about in Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things, I wasn't faithful to my first husband. And I felt terrible about that. And I thought I was an awful, hideous person. And I learned a lot from that experience. And it honestly made me a much stronger person in that regard, a better partner. But I think that, you know, part of my agony was just feeling like, what's wrong with me? Like there's something wrong with me. And, you know, I love that, you know, people like Dan Savage, who writes the Savage Love advice column, you know, just normalizing different kinds of sexuality and normalizing monogamy being a fine thing, but also a challenging thing for many people.
- [23:39]
Reshma Sajani
So was that hard for you because you write about how in your second marriage, your current husband, Brian, he did cheat on you.
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Cheryl Strayed
Yeah. Before we were married, when we were first dating. Yeah.
- [23:48]
Reshma Sajani
And you talk about how, like, you wrote about the phone call that gave you this, like, gut feeling that something wasn't right.
- [23:54]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah.
- [23:55]
Reshma Sajani
How did the both of you work through it?
- [23:57]
Cheryl Strayed
Well, and one of the things I write about that is as painful and awful as it was, I'm actually grateful for it now because it did exactly what I was just saying. It opened up a conversation between us that wasn't about the fairy tale, that was actually about human sexuality and, you know, his wounds and my wounds and our hopes and expectations and aspirations as a couple. You know, the question, you know, at that time when, when he, you know, he basically had a one night stand and, you know, it wasn't his problem, wasn't like, well, I'm not sure if I'm in love with you, Cheryl. I'm not sure if I want to be partners with you. That wasn't his question. His question was really. It frankly had nothing to do with me. It had to do with his own, you know, ability to kind of like say no to himself and manage certain impulses and desires. And we had to talk in a much more honest way to each other in a way that was sort of painful. And frankly, I think that part of my ability to understand where he was coming from and ultimately forgive him and come back together with him was because I. I related. Like, I understood when he was like, yeah, it was just one thing. And then this thing. And then this happened. Like, I was like, you know, I get it, because I've been in that situation too. Estar Perel also talks beautifully about this. You know, we. We cheat. You know, you asked me, why do people cheat? Well, we cheat for any number of reasons. And many of them have to do really just with our own sense of self worth, feeling desirable again for that novelty and excitement, you know.
- [25:34]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, she certainly says that. She says, you know, cause the incidence of women cheating are much higher. And she says it's just oftentimes that women just want something for them.
- [25:42]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah.
- [25:42]
Reshma Sajani
So they have this affair, they have this lover, they have this thing that is just for them in a world where they feel like they don't have anything for them. And that's. I found that always very powerful. One of the things that you, you started writing Dear Sugar when you were 41. And you said, when we boil it down, we collectively have five to six problems that most letters fit into. What were those reoccurring problems? What were those five to six problems?
- [26:12]
Cheryl Strayed
And, you know, so, yeah, the Dear Circuit column, I started writing it at 41, and then it's gone. It's had different iterations. Right. You know, it was like I wrote it on the rumpus, and then it was a book, tiny, beautiful things. And then I was a podcast with Steve Almond. And then now I do it as a substack newsletter monthly. I'm on a little hiatus right now, but been writing the monthly newsletter for the last maybe four years. And. Yeah, and that's still true. Those. Those kind of buckets of problems, if you will. And, you know, they're like the dysfunctional, painful childhood. Those, those kind of family of origin wounds is one bucket. One is the whole, you know, sex, marriage, love, romance, that kind of thing. One is. I mean, I'm forgetting them all now, you know, but it's like. Or, you know, the career, like, where am I going? What do I. You know, my dreams and my work life and, you know, where should I live? And those kind of life, like, lifestyle, adult problems. I call jokingly. There's one. One of the five areas is, you know, problems with my vagina, you know, and it's like, you know, it's like fertility or should I have a baby or not? And like metal menopause and like, you know, vaginal. What the terrible thing they call vaginal atrophy, you know, like, all of that, you know, so it really is kind of reassuring, actually. I always find this. This is my. One of my favorite things about being a writer and not just an advice columnist, but frankly, just a writer, is, you know, the struggles that we have are so universal. You know, we almost always feel like we're alone and we basically never are.
- [27:49]
Reshma Sajani
Why do you think people don't share that sense of, like, vulnerability or that. Why do we front?
- [27:57]
Cheryl Strayed
Well, because of everything we've all been trained to do from day one, which is essentially to be pleasing to others so that they will love us and include us. I mean, there's really like a very primal fear, I think, about being cast out and considered bad or wrong or weird or unlike the others or in some way violating those. All of those unspoken codes, you know, so when we step outside of that, it's incredibly scary because we risk not getting that thing we really need at core, which is acceptance and love, you know, So I understand why people are afraid of it. And it's one of those. It's like a trust fall. It's like, just do it, you know, speak that sentence out loud that you're afraid to speak. And, you know, the other thing, I think, too, so many of us, especially as women who are people pleasers, and I am just like, you know, I am like the captain of the squad, of the people pleaser squad. And it's been quite a journey to try to step back from that. And it is. That really is about, you know, stating what you want and need. You are part of the equation. And I can't tell you how many years it's taken me to learn that lesson.
- [29:13]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, I was just with Gloria Steinem. She said the biggest advice I can give to women is just. Just say it out loud. Just say it out loud. And you would think about so many things that happen to women, whether it's rape or sexual abuse or, you know, something at work or something, if they just said it right. Not only what that could do for changing the condition of women. Well, what they could do for themselves and feeling bravery and empowerment. And I think the remember is like it doesn't always feel good to be brave.
- [29:41]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah, it doesn't. But and I think too that this is so connected to shame that it's like when we decide not to say something. I mean, this is really even comes in with age. All of my life I've heard that thing never, what's that rule? Right? Never ask a woman her age. Which just by the way, I rejected that as, you know, since I was a child. You know, the only reason not to ask a woman her age, the only reason that's ever been considered impolite is because what we're supposed to be ashamed. We're supposed to be ashamed to be 42 or 36 or 56 or 78. And you know, so what I say is it's almost my like personal like tiny little resistance, my little revol, my revolutionary spirit is saying, you know, say who you are and say it out loud.
- [30:43]
Reshma Sajani
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- [33:39]
Cheryl Strayed
Thank you.
- [33:40]
Reshma Sajani
I love it. Everybody watch it because it's so powerful. I laughed, I cried, I felt uncomfortable, like I told you. Cheryl, do you feel like you made it?
- [33:52]
Cheryl Strayed
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. And that feels amazing.
- [34:00]
Reshma Sajani
Ah, it feels amazing to hear you say it.
- [34:03]
Cheryl Strayed
Oh, I know, I know. We're not supposed to say that, right?
- [34:06]
Reshma Sajani
No, we are supposed to say it. So thank you for Women are not.
- [34:09]
Cheryl Strayed
Like, oh, no, but. No, but here's something I want to say. I felt like I made it before that, you know, so, yeah, you're right. Wild came out in 2012. That was the year. So it was 43 when I was published. I turned 44 that year. But several years before that, I had published my first novel, Torch. And honestly, that is. That is when I felt like I had made it. Okay. And I want to explain this a bit. That because that had been my dream, to publish a book, to publish a novel, had been just really the dream, the dream that I had carried with me, you know, from childhood when I first learned how to read and fell in love with words and then onward. And it was the thing. I was like, this is the thing. I must do this. I am called to do this thing. And that's when I really felt like I made it. And then when Wild came out and became this, like, international bestseller, then it was like, okay, this has gone way beyond. This has gone way beyond. This isn't my dream. My dream was. Was not like international bestseller. My dream was publishing my. Publishing a book. And so what's so cool about that. And I think I'm so grateful that I was, you know, 43 when that book was published and had that kind of fame is that I just got to experience it. Experience that. Not as self defining but rather like, well, isn't this fun? Isn't this interesting? Isn't this wild? No pun intended. Isn't this something I just honestly never would have dreamed and you know, to sit there, I had so many moments. I remember sitting at the Oscars, you know, just hanging out at the Oscars and both Laura Dern and Reese Witherspoon were nominated. Reese played me and Laura Dern played my mom. Both of those women are dear friends of mine. Now. I just actually had lunch with Laura yesterday and it was this moment they played a clip from the movie when they were announcing Laura's nomination. And in it there was Laura talking to my daughter Bobby, who played the young me. And she's dressed in clothes that are like exactly like an outfit my mother wore all the time. And she's talking to this young girl who is my daughter named after my mother, Bobby. It's, you know, and I just remember watching that clip, sitting in the Oscars and just thinking, I never, I never could have imagine this. You know, it was beyond dream. And I just, I did that thing that we were just talking about, you know, we remember that we stand on the shoulders of the people who came before us. And I thought so much about my mother. I thought so much about maybe all of my. All of the female ancestors who came before her. I'm standing on their shoulders. And, you know, so, yeah, I made it. Yeah. And I didn't make it just for me. I made it for all of the ways that they sacrificed and suffered and loved and gave and contributed to the betterment of the world. And me.
- [37:24]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. I want to talk about what's next. I read that you said, now here I am in middle age, wondering what's next? What's the next era about? I can feel in my bones that a journey is coming.
- [37:38]
Cheryl Strayed
Yeah.
- [37:39]
Reshma Sajani
And my kids leave the next in a couple years they have left. And I'm longing for a journey to help me see the road ahead clearly. Seems like someone's pretty excited about this next act, huh?
- [37:50]
Cheryl Strayed
I am. I am. I. One of the things I learned about my hike on the Pacific Crest Trail when I was riding wild is I could see very clearly that what I had done for myself in my 20s is I gave myself what the culture didn't give me. That, that most cultures throughout Time have given young people, and that is a rite of passage. You know, very often in ancient cultures all around the world. It was like, you know, when. When young people are going through that transition of really becoming adults and stepping into their independence and their strength, they are asked, you know, they are. They're supported and asked to go on a journey where they. They're tested against themselves. They get to find out, you know, how brave they are and how strong they are and how resilient they are and how. What capacity they have to continue stepping forward even when it hurts. And I've realized that, you know, that we don't just need to do that once in our lives, you know, that we need to really think about the other times that we transition. Anyone who's gotten divorced has to walk through a profound transition, or most people who've divorced have to. Anyone who's recovered from a terrible loss, you know, an illness, or, you know, losing somebody they. Who they love, you know, you have to transition. And that very often is done most powerfully when we can actually take some time and be contemplative and remember again who we are and see for the first time who we're now becoming in this new reality. And I think that that's so much what's happening for me right now.
- [39:34]
Reshma Sajani
I can't wait for you to write about it.
- [39:36]
Cheryl Strayed
I'm writing about it. I am already.
- [39:39]
Reshma Sajani
I can't wait. I can't wait to read it. I can't wait to read it. And I'm sure all of our listeners can't wait to read it, too. Cause it's just you are so gifted and so powerful and so spot on with how you describe. And I think this moment of midlife is like, there aren't all the words yet because we haven't focused enough attention on it. We haven't given it enough attention.
- [40:01]
Cheryl Strayed
We haven't. I mean, you know, you hear this over and over again. I. And, you know, I think that I love middle age. I mean, I think it's a really interesting, incredibly powerful and fruitful time. And I think, too, that I've always just had a very positive feeling about this, about this time in my life. And part of it is honestly that when you lose your mom at 45, you understand what a privilege it is to get to live into middle age and to get to be old. I hope I get that.
- [40:37]
Reshma Sajani
Well, thank you so much for this powerful conversation. And I just. I can't wait to hopefully be a part of what you're doing next.
- [40:44]
Cheryl Strayed
So thank you such a pleasure to talk to you.
- [40:55]
Reshma Sajani
Cheryl Straight is an author and advice columnist. Make sure you check out her Dear Sugar on Substack. She's on a hiatus right now, but you know she's going to come back with more wisdom, more candor and just more words that are going to knock your socks off. And in the meantime, I'm going to be taking her advice to live for right now, to be present. I'm not going to wait for a deathbed moment. What about you? What's your takeaway from this episode? If you ever have a thought or a question about something we talk about on this podcast, I want to hear from you. You can leave us a voicemail at the link in Show Notes. That's it for now. See you next week for our menopause episode. It's going to be a wild ride just like Midlife. Bye bye. There's more of My so Called Midlife with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Midlife Advice that didn't make it into the show. Subscribe now. In Apple Podcasts, I'm your host, Rashmi Sajani. Our producer is Claire Jones. This series is sound designed by Ivan Karayev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Karaev and performed by Ryan Jewellery, Ivan Koraev and Karen Waltok. Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lepore. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova. Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye. Why hello there. This is your pal Sarah Silverman. You know, the standup comic that's not afraid of a diarrhea joke. Oh my God, I'm so brave. I hope you're enjoying this podcast that you're listening to. I am just dropping in here to let you know about another podcast I think you'd like and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life. Anything, their silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situation. And then I respond, whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead, search for the Sarah Silverman podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. Bye.
- [43:43]
Cheryl Strayed
People love to pretend that there are.
- [43:45]
Reshma Sajani
Simple formulas for living your best life. Now eat this and you won't get sick.
- [43:51]
Cheryl Strayed
Manifest it and everything will work out.
- [43:54]
Reshma Sajani
But there are some things you can choose and some things you can't.
- [43:58]
Cheryl Strayed
And it's okay that life isn't always getting better. I'm Kate Bowler, and on Everything Happens.
- [44:05]
Reshma Sajani
I speak with kind, smart, funny people about life as it really is. Beautiful, terrible, and everything in between. Let's be human together. Everything Happens is available wherever you get your podcasts.