← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
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- [00:01]
Reshma Saujani
Hi, I'm Ellie Kemper from the Office and unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. And this is my fantastically funny friend, Scott Eckert.
- [00:07]
Bizoma St. John
Hi, everyone.
- [00:08]
Reshma Saujani
We host a podcast called Born to Love. It's a show where we talk to the people we love about the things they love.
- [00:15]
Bizoma St. John
Each week we bring on a celebrity guest to discuss their secret passion.
- [00:18]
Reshma Saujani
Did you know that my friend Jenna Fisher loves Keanu Reeves movies?
- [00:22]
Bizoma St. John
She does, she does.
- [00:24]
Reshma Saujani
And how about Al Roker? Samantha Bee, Tony Hawk, Jane Lynch?
- [00:28]
Bizoma St. John
What do they love, Ellie?
- [00:29]
Reshma Saujani
You have to listen to the show to find out. So check out Born to Love wherever you get your podcast from. Lemonada Media. Hey, Choice Words listeners. Sam Bee here. Guess what? We are back with a brand new season of Choice Words from Lemonada Media. Each week I'll chat with amazing guests like Kerry Washington, Laura Dern, and Nick Offerman to dive into the biggest choices they've ever made. We are talking career shaping, history, changing life defining decisions. As someone who has made my own fair share of questionable choices. Hello, Bangs. I am pumped to share these funny, poignant, all too relatable stories with you. Season 2 of Choice Words is out now. Tune in wherever you get your podcasts. You won't want to miss it. Lemonade. Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. So I've been thinking a lot about this word midlife, and you know what? It freaks me out. The minute I think about midlife. It's almost like this time clock pops up that's moving backwards and I get this panic of like I'm running out of time. I know that that's irrational, but I. I don't think I'm alone in feeling that way. And that's why I love our guest today, my friend, Bizoma St. John. She's the newest cast member of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. But I knew her way back when she was one of our board members for Girls who Code and we just hit it off. She has had this incredible, impressive career in corporate America. She's worked everywhere. I'm talking Netflix, Uber, Apple, Pepsi. But one day she woke up and she said, fuck it, and she retired. Part of that decision was because she didn't wanna live by their rules anymore. She'd experienced so much loss already in her life that she had decided she was never gonna take a single day for granted. She lost her first daughter after a tough pregnancy and her husband, her love Died of cancer. That's a lot of grief for one person to live through in one lifetime. But Bose is not only working through it, she's talking about it. She wrote an incredible book, the Urgent Life. She started a wig and hair care business named after her late daughter. Eve Bose is here to share her wisdom with us. And I have learned so much from her about how to just say fuck it and live in the moment every single day. So let's get into it. I miss you. How are you? You better not come to the city again without seeing me.
- [03:31]
Bizoma St. John
I know, right? Let me tell you.
- [03:33]
Reshma Saujani
How's Lael?
- [03:33]
Bizoma St. John
Lael is great.
- [03:35]
Reshma Saujani
What grade is she in now?
- [03:36]
Bizoma St. John
She is in 10th grade.
- [03:38]
Reshma Saujani
Is she coding?
- [03:39]
Bizoma St. John
No, she's not.
- [03:40]
Reshma Saujani
You got her to Auntie Reshma.
- [03:42]
Bizoma St. John
I know, exactly. You're right.
- [03:45]
Reshma Saujani
You're right.
- [03:46]
Bizoma St. John
I do need to. I do need to. No, but she's really good. She's a sports girly who loves makeup.
- [03:53]
Reshma Saujani
That's amazing, right? It's like you're supposed to be.
- [03:55]
Bizoma St. John
What?
- [03:55]
Reshma Saujani
You're supposed to either be sporty and not like makeup or getting ready, or you could like. It's one or the other, and I love it. It's like multidimensional. And that's how women are. Young girls are.
- [04:03]
Bizoma St. John
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah.
- [04:05]
Reshma Saujani
All right, let's get started. So, you know, we talk on the show a lot about midlife and there are people come in and are like, yeah, this is like the best time of my life. Like, every year I get older, it just gets better. And then there's some people, like, I just want to go back to my 20s. Where are you at in this debate?
- [04:23]
Bizoma St. John
Gosh, I'm having a really good time right now in this midlife, you know, Like, I feel totally in my power. And this is. I don't know. It's hard for me to say this out loud because I feel like it might sound unrealistic, but I have felt in my power for a long time. I know that there isn't a decade where I'm like, oh, man, I wish I had done this differently. Like, I really loved my teens even. I really loved my 20s. I really loved my 30s. I'm loving my 40s. And I'm coming to the end of my 40s here pretty soon. And I'm just like, shit, watch out when I'm 50, y'all. I mean, woo wee. You know, so I'm. I'm. But every decade has felt like its own sort of moment.
- [05:14]
Reshma Saujani
Do you think you're getting more powerful.
- [05:16]
Bizoma St. John
Yes, 100%.
- [05:18]
Reshma Saujani
So what's the hack on that?
- [05:19]
Bizoma St. John
I think part of it is my complete and utter acceptance of who I am, right? That every decade I have felt good in it, but good for different reasons. And I think even the last decade, in my 30s, it was just ambition, ambition, ambition. I was eating everything, everything up. It was just power because I was racing faster than everybody. And right now, I feel more powerful because although I'm not racing as hard as I was in my 30s, I am more in control of who I am. You know, this is gonna be an interesting analogy. I work out a lot, right? And a lot of what I am doing now is a lot of balance. You know, as you get older, you need to work more on your balance as you use weights, you know? And my trainer, who I fight with every.
- [06:13]
Reshma Saujani
Because you want him to make you do less or more.
- [06:15]
Bizoma St. John
Less. I'm literally like, jerry, stop it. Like, this is too much. But one thing he always says to me, which I try to remember in my personal life or in my work life, is he says, control, you know, because, like, when you are holding big weight and you're trying to balance on one leg or anything, you are trying to rush through the movement just so you can get it done, rush through the reps, you know, okay, you gotta get eight done. So you're like, boom, boom, boom, boom. And what is happening.
- [06:45]
Reshma Saujani
That's totally me.
- [06:47]
Bizoma St. John
Yeah. Is that you're wobbling, you're getting it done. Now you're getting the reps done, but you're wobbling. And what he always says is control. Like, so it means that you might have to slow down a little bit, but the rep is gonna be better for you because you are in control of the weight and in control of your body. And so now I feel more of that control where it's like, I was racing in my 30s and just getting it, getting it, getting some of it was a little wobbly, but I was. I was getting it, so I still got it done, no problem. But now I'm in control.
- [07:22]
Reshma Saujani
That's beautiful. That's beautiful, Buzz. Because when you're in control, it means you can also enjoy. Like, I still feel like I'm in that place in my life where I'm just trying to rush through the next thing, through the next thing, through the next thing, and then I'm never present. And especially, you know, when you have kids, you actually have to figure out how you can be present because you'll miss everything. And that wisdom and Age is supposed to give you more presence and, I guess, more control. I think that is powerful. You know, it's funny. As you were talking, I was thinking about a scene in your book. So when you fall in love with Peter, you know, you're from one culture, he's from another. And thinking about the scene when you call your father and you basically say, we're moving in together.
- [08:06]
Bizoma St. John
Yeah.
- [08:08]
Reshma Saujani
And he basically is like, click. You know what I mean? And he's at Peter's office.
- [08:13]
Bizoma St. John
Yes.
- [08:14]
Reshma Saujani
But I was thinking, as you were saying. Cause I think sometimes we don't feel in control of our lives, especially when we're children of immigrants. Because you got two masters, you got yourself, and you got your parents. But you always had a lot of, I guess, confidence in your own decisions and your choices. That you were even able to stand up to immigrant parents, which is hard.
- [08:43]
Bizoma St. John
Hard. Very hard. Very, very, very hard. Yeah. But I think it's also because I have felt very convicted for a long time about, you know, where I'm supposed to go, what I'm supposed to be doing now. I like the word you used, hack. You know, it's like, what's the hack to that? And the thing is that it's not always that. Like, okay, I know where the road is going or where I'm gonna end up. Right in that moment when I was telling my father that I'd fallen in love with this white man and that I was gonna move in with him. And he was like, absolutely not. You know, it wasn't that I knew that, you know, this is gonna work out. I knew I wanted to marry Peter. If you had asked me then, is this going to be forever? I probably would have been honest and said, I don't know. But I know what I want right now. And nothing is going to stop me from getting this right now. And so that is the consistent way that I have been throughout my life, which is that it is actually very difficult for me to think about five years from now. I don't like thinking about that, Reshma. Like, I really don't. What if God has something different for you? What if you're not supposed to get to the place where you think you're supposed to go? Because one thing I can guarantee you is that the dreams that I dreamt in my twenties, I am far surpassing them right now in my own life. I am in awe of where I am. And so if I was to consider what is going to happen five years from now and make plans to get there, I might fall short of what is supposed to be mine.
- [10:22]
Reshma Saujani
Or you may not take a risk. The hack is like, live in the moment, figure out what you really want to do right now. And it doesn't have to be the five year plan. And I think but. And I think that's very. Is opposite of what we tell people, especially women. Right? What's the long term plan? What's the five year plan? What are you driving towards?
- [10:40]
Bizoma St. John
Yes, yes, yes. And it's so funny because I have often these days come back to a saying that, you know, I just think it's so funny because it's one of these things that, you know, we say all the time, carpe diem, seize the day. You know, we're always talking about that. And I have never liked that sentence, by the way, because it's translated wrong. And carpe diem doesn't mean seize the day. Carpe diem actually means pluck the day. It's a more intentional taking. Wow, so it's not just like going boom, get everything. No, pluck the day. And the whole sentence is carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero, which means pluck the day. Trusting as little as possible in the next one. That is how we should be living.
- [11:38]
Reshma Saujani
Pluck the day.
- [11:38]
Bizoma St. John
Yo. It's like you pluck the day. Intentional taking of things during the day, Trusting as little as possible in the next one. So why are you making 5 year, 10 year plans when you could be plucking this day and taking intentionally what you need?
- [11:55]
Reshma Saujani
How is plucking the day related to the urgent life? Similar, right?
- [12:00]
Bizoma St. John
Feels like similar in that I wrote my book about how the tragedies, the grief, the things that came out of left field helped me to become the successful person. So the loss in my life made me feel more urgent about living. And I recognize that that is a very heavy thing to ask of people. Because grief is so, so, so dark. And no one would blame you, and no one would blame me if I were to go into a corner and just lie down.
- [12:42]
Reshma Saujani
That's right, they wouldn't.
- [12:43]
Bizoma St. John
But for me, what has happened instead is that I really want to live a very full life, Reshma. Like, I want this life to feel like I'm. I'm here. You know, it's like when Peter died, it was four days before his 44th birthday. And people would say to me, oh, it's so tragic. He died so young. And I agree, I think he died too young. But at the same time, what makes me less fearful about getting up every day and like what if. What if. What if. What if this happens? Or what if that happens? What if my life is cut down short is that I want people to look at my life and say, God damn it, she lived God. She got everything that she wanted. She did everything in her moment. And that, for me, will feel fulfilling. And that is why I choose to live an urgent life, not a fast life. I didn't say that it's not fast, because urgency is like carpe diem. Urgency is an intentional plucking. Like, I'm not waiting until tomorrow to go do the thing that I want to do. I'm not just carelessly running around doing whatever it is that I have an intention of getting that thing, and I'm going to get it today.
- [14:11]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah, you're intentional.
- [14:13]
Bizoma St. John
Yes, I'm intentional in the plucking.
- [14:15]
Reshma Saujani
You know, I always say, like, God never gives you what you can't handle.
- [14:18]
Bizoma St. John
Yeah. I mean, look, I have a very unique relationship with God. I think all of us who believe in some sort of, you know, higher power probably believe that we have our own unique relationship. I think God and I are really homies, you know? We really are. I have honest conversations with God, you know, there's some reverence there, for sure. But I'm also like, come on. Like, come on, come on again. Like, are you serious right now? You know? Like, I remember sitting in that front pew at Peter's funeral and having an argument with God while sitting there and thinking, are you fucking serious right now? Like, are you serious? Like, why am I sitting here? Why am I sitting in this front pew again? And I swear to you, if I sit in this front pew ever again in my life, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do something to you. You know what I mean?
- [15:14]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah.
- [15:14]
Bizoma St. John
I don't know what I'm gonna do to you, God, but I'm gonna do something, you know? And I was threatening God, and I still. You know what I mean? Because the truth of the matter is that I have had a lot of grief, and it feels unfair. It feels unfair. Yeah. I'm like, why? What did I do? I'm out here trying to just live a good life, be a good person. Why do these things happen? Like, why do I have to go through this? And the answer to me hasn't been clear? And so the only way that I can reconcile it is to just live my life the best way that I can. To get up every day and be more powerful, be stronger, be kinder, be more loving, be more intentional. Like, those are the things that I can control everything else that happens, girl. I don't have any control over that. I'm going to live my life and I'm gonna enjoy it. And I better not see that front pew of the church ever again.
- [16:16]
Reshma Saujani
You better not. So I have a question. When your husband, Peter, was diagnosed with cancer. Cause you were separated at this point.
- [16:23]
Bizoma St. John
Yeah.
- [16:23]
Reshma Saujani
And his wish was to end the separation and get back together. And you said in another podcast, like, getting back together with him wasn't a yes for you, but for him. Tell me more about that.
- [16:34]
Bizoma St. John
Yeah. Oh, it was such a hard thing, Reshma. It was hard because I had such conflicted feelings. It wasn't that I ever stopped loving Peter when we separated. That wasn't it. We had just suffered so much together, we couldn't see our way through. And while we were separated, we were trying really hard to be friends. You know, I'm chuckling because anyone who's ever been separated probably has tried that, you know? And you find that, you know, some days are really good and some days piss you off, you know, and you're just like, that's why I want a divorce. You know? And we certainly went through that. But when he was diagnosed and we knew that his cancer was terminal, things really changed, you know, for me. And I hate to sound so pithy about it, because did it really have to take a terminal diagnosis for me to see? And in my case, yes, it did. You know, I'm not ashamed to say that. And what I saw in him was that in order for him to go peacefully, he needed to have tied up all of the loose ends, the things he regretted. And I don't think I would ever forgive myself if I denied him that. And I loved him enough to give him that.
- [18:11]
Reshma Saujani
No matter what your life looks like in midlife, kids or no kids, married or single, hectic job or sabbatical, a lot is happening in our brains. And sometimes it's so crucial to quiet down that noise. That's where meditation comes in for me. And it's why I'm excited to tell you about Calm. Calm is the number one app for sleep and meditation, giving you the power to calm your mind and change your life. One of the things I really like about Calm is that it offers a bunch of different content and programs to help you navigate your own ups and downs. They have meditation for anxiety and stress, sleep stories and meditations for restless nights, grounding exercises for those especially crazy days, and even expert LED talks to help you improve self esteem and relationships. Anytime I use one of Their sleep stories. With my 4 year old next to me, he falls asleep immediately. It makes bedtime so much easier. Calm puts the tools you need right in your pocket and can help you dedicate just a few minutes each day to live a happier, healthier life. Stress less, sleep more and live better with Calm. For listeners of our show, Calm is offering an exclusive 40% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com midlife. Go to C-A-L-M.com midlife for 40% off. Unlimited access to Calm's entire library. That's com.com midlife it's hard to find a great mentor who can help me level up my dream mentor, Serena Williams. I really want to up my tennis game so I was really excited when I heard that they have a class with her. A Masterclass. With Masterclass you can learn from the best to become your best. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 plus of the world's best for just $10 a month. An annual membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every instructor and you can access Masterclass on your phone, computer, smart TV or even in audio mode. One of the best classes for us midlifers, especially since so many of you loved our episode about divorce, is the one on building stronger relationships with renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel. And the classes really make a difference. 88% of members feel that Masterclass has made a positive impact on their lives. As I said, I've been wanting to get better at tennis. This class with Serena really helped me improve my game and move my body more. So important in midlife. Plus, every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Don't wait another moment to start your learning journey with Masterclass. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com Midlife Crisis. That's 15% off@masterclass.com Midlife crisis Masterclass.com Midlife Crisis so much has changed since you wrote the book. You left corporate America. You spent a lot of time in Kana. I briefly got to kind of see you when you were there. And now you're on the Real Housewives. Before we get to that, do you miss corporate America?
- [21:34]
Bizoma St. John
I don't.
- [21:35]
Reshma Saujani
Not at all?
- [21:35]
Bizoma St. John
No, not at all? Not a little bit. You know, it's funny, I miss creating in a structured environment. You know, I don't miss the bureaucracy. I don't miss the pretense. I don't miss the, you know, the pressure of the microaggressions I don't miss those things. If we could get rid of those things in corporate America, I'd go back, but that's not happening in my lifetime, so.
- [21:59]
Reshma Saujani
Well, what's fascinating to me is I think a lot of women who end up in the corporate world end up getting imposter syndrome because they're in the. Especially women of color. Right? Because you're in these structures that are not built for you. You kind of walk out of that environment more confident. How the hell did that happen?
- [22:15]
Bizoma St. John
Well, you know what? That came out of failure, though. It came out of failure because, look, I realized actually very early on that I wasn't going to get to the corner office competing at the same level that everybody else was competing. And by the way, I had the gift of being at a very large company at Pepsi. And very quickly, I recognized the fact that even if I did the work better than my quote unquote classmates, I wasn't going to be promoted at the same time as them understanding that it meant that there was no clear path forward the way they had the path forward. And so I gave up. I just said, well, you know what? I'm not going to get promoted with these people. And every review I go to, they tell me I'm too loud, I'm too brash. So I just gave up. And in giving up was actually then what gave me my freedom, which I know sounds so ridiculous, but it is true. Because what happened, girl? Well. Cause literally everybody who worked with me at the time, they know the day that I came in and I had given up.
- [23:23]
Reshma Saujani
But you mean by give up, you mean like, I am not gonna fit into your mold.
- [23:27]
Bizoma St. John
I'm not fitting into the mold. I'm never gonna become the CMO of the company. So you know what? Screw it. I had worn the gray suit before. Girl, I came in the next day, I was wearing leather pants and my freaking flower top and my hair gon be whatever it wants to be today. And I'm painting my nails red, I'm wearing them long, I'm putting on my lipstick. And when I'm sitting in the meeting, I'm going to say whatever the hell I want to say, because none of y'all gonna promote me anyway. Then all of a sudden, people start paying attention to me.
- [23:56]
Reshma Saujani
And then they want you to be the cmo. Like, so, Girl, yes. When you stop trying to play the game, they're like, oh, I want you. Is that what happened?
- [24:03]
Bizoma St. John
Yes, that's what happened. That's what happened. It was the Oddest, strangest thing, and the thing that is hard to explain and try to give somebody else those rules is that I know it sounds insane. I know it sounds impossible. I know it comes with a lot of risk. I know that you are going to stop doing whatever they doing and they will look at you crazy. You're going to stop paying attention to the things they did or they're telling you to do, and they're going to tell you you suck. They are going to do that. So accept that now. Go in tomorrow wearing your leather pants, knowing that somebody's going to be like, why in the hell would you wear that? Know that you're not going to be invited to the next meeting because they going to think you lost your mind. But if you keep going and you stick to whoever it is that you are, you will be the winner at the end because you are gonna be the unique one. While the rest of them are trying to busy themselves fitting into a mold that nobody wants anyway.
- [25:01]
Reshma Saujani
Midlifers, listen up, man. This is like some gold advice here.
- [25:05]
Bizoma St. John
Yes. I'm telling you this is it and I've done it. I'm the one who's standing on the other side of the large crevice. Okay? Who's telling you, sis? Jump. I'm not standing on the same side as you telling you to jump and I'll come after you, Girl, I already made it. And I'm telling you to jump. Trust me, jump.
- [25:23]
Reshma Saujani
And you got to leave, say fuck you and start your own fucking company.
- [25:28]
Bizoma St. John
Girl, that part, that. That part. And I took the knowledge of what I had already learned and I took the money.
- [25:36]
Reshma Saujani
Yes.
- [25:37]
Bizoma St. John
And I started my own thing where I'm in charge.
- [25:39]
Reshma Saujani
I love it. So I want to hear more about your hair and your hair care brand, Eve, because I think it's like so inspirational.
- [25:47]
Bizoma St. John
I spent nine months learning about the entire industry. So I started with hair and then I was like, oh, shit, I need to make hair care. Because you actually need specially formulated hair care in order to take care of that hair. So then I got with a black woman chemist here in California who has worked at all the big ones, right, all the big companies. And she's in semi retirement. I was like, girl, I need you. And she formulated beautiful product for me. And so I created an entire system and I birthed it and I named it Eve. Both in honor of my first daughter who did not make it into life, but also for the Eve of all of us, you know, the woman who we are, the celebrated one from Africa by the way. Because whether you are religious or you're a scientist, it still started somewhere from us. Okay?
- [26:42]
Reshma Saujani
Yes, it did. So, Eve, can you walk me through your decision on, like, why you started this? Like, what made you do it?
- [26:49]
Bizoma St. John
Oh, my gosh. Okay, so here's what had happened. When I left my global CMO job at Netflix, I thought I was taking a sabbatical to finish writing my book and to publish it for a year. The year was up. Published book. Yay. Yay, yay. Fanfare I'm looking around. I'm like, oh, I really don't want to go back there. I don't. And look, I had a few meetings, and again, this is why I'm saying that, like, in hindsight, of course. And it's not that far in hindsight, because only two years ago. But what I'm telling you is that this shit is crazy, and it's hard to do because, you know, I'm sitting in these meetings, you know, talking about the next CMO job I'm going to have. I talked about one CEO job that I could have. The money is big. The security is there. But I have run that play too many times. I know exactly what's gonna happen. They look at me, and they're like, oh, she's so fabulous.
- [27:45]
Reshma Saujani
She's so great.
- [27:46]
Bizoma St. John
She has all these brilliant ideas. She does things differently.
- [27:49]
Reshma Saujani
Ooh, ooh, ooh.
- [27:50]
Bizoma St. John
And I'm gonna get in there, I'm gonna start to move their shit around. They're like, no, no, no. Don't move things around. Then I'm like, but you asked me to come here and do that, so now what? And then they get mad at me. So I was sitting there in one particular meeting, and I was really close, you know, to that decision point, and I just felt, you know, that definition of insanity doing the same thing again and again and again and expecting a different result. And I was sitting there thinking, girl, you do this and you are stuck, girl. I said, let me just pick up my purse, and I just would say.
- [28:25]
Reshma Saujani
And walk out of here.
- [28:27]
Bizoma St. John
Thank you so much for your time. I'm going to see myself out. And I came home and cried. Oh, my God. I cried. I cried.
- [28:35]
Reshma Saujani
How'd you cry? Of joy or just fear?
- [28:38]
Bizoma St. John
No, no. I cried of fear. I cried of frustration. Girl, I want to cry now. I cried because it just felt unfair. I was like, yo, I am talented. I am good. I'm good. And why. Why is this space? Why won't they take me as I am? Why do they always want to change Me. And I cried. I cried. I cried. I cried for all of us. Because if I. Someone who's inducted into the Marketing hall of Fame, who has more awards than any of my counterparts, who has had four big CMO jobs, if I can't be who I am, how can anybody else? And one day I got up from my crying, and I was like, you know what? Actually, I'm pissed off. I'm mad as hell, and I'm gonna make my own thing. And some of it. Look, I wish I could be a bigger person and say that I just did it all for me. No, I did it to fuck them, too.
- [29:56]
Reshma Saujani
I'm gonna fucking show you. Oh, yeah, That's.
- [29:58]
Bizoma St. John
Hell, yeah.
- [29:59]
Reshma Saujani
That's like 99% of why I do half the things I do.
- [30:02]
Bizoma St. John
Look, that's the energy.
- [30:03]
Reshma Saujani
Yes.
- [30:03]
Bizoma St. John
I was like, oh, okay, okay, okay. You know what? Actually, y'all have made me feel like I'm not good enough this whole time. Meanwhile, I'm better than you. Meanwhile, I'm stronger than you. Meanwhile, I'm wiser than you. Meanwhile, I know this culture so much better than you know it. And so I'm going to build something, and I'm going to do it better. And so I came out sweating.
- [30:30]
Reshma Saujani
And you get rich doing it.
- [30:32]
Bizoma St. John
Hell, yeah. You know what I mean? I'm taking all their coins, everybody. But the crazy thing is, look, I have had. And, you know, a lot of women of color, especially black women, will tell you that our hair, you know, is a topic of conversation all the time and a topic of consideration, which is so crazy, right? It's like, look, if you're gonna go to an important business meeting, you are absolutely not wearing braids. You know, like, your hair says something about you before you even open your mouth. And so I thought about it, and I said, well, you know what. What is happening in the hair industry? You know, it's like, for me, it's like, I love my wigs, extensions, like bundles. Girl, I love it all. And as I thought about it, I was just like, man, you know what? When I'm doing my hair, the hair that I'm using is not made for me. It's made for white women. And if you go and search Google or YouTube or any place, you'll find millions of videos of black women and women of color who are like, they're kitchen chemists out here trying to maneuver and manipulate hair textures to match theirs or dyeing lace to match their complexion, because the lace that the wigs and weaves are made on is too Light of a color for our skin. And so just like everything else, I was like, well, where does this start anyway? And I was like, oh, it starts in Asia. You know what, I'm going to go. So I went to Guangzhou, China, by myself.
- [32:02]
Reshma Saujani
No.
- [32:03]
Bizoma St. John
For the largest hair show in the world. And it was like everybody was there. It was huge. It was enormous. And I had my little, like, you know, my little placard and I was walking around by myself. Six foot tall black woman, alone. No translator, by the way, on day one. But I learned my lesson though. Day two, I came back with a translator. Okay. And I was asking questions, you know, just like the basic questions. And it was. The questions I was asking didn't have complicated answers. You know, when I asked things like, hey, why, why is it that the texture that you're selling doesn't match, like African American or African hair? Why is that? You're like, oh, nobody asked us to. Why is it that the lace is not brown? Oh, we don't have to do it.
- [32:50]
Reshma Saujani
Wow.
- [32:50]
Bizoma St. John
Like, cause I expected, oh, the cogs are going to go up, right? No, it wasn't that. It was just, oh, nobody asked us to.
- [32:56]
Reshma Saujani
Because most of the entrepreneurs probably were not black.
- [32:59]
Bizoma St. John
They're not. They're not black women and women of color consume this particular industry and there is no representation, not in manufacturing. They're not considered for anything. So I was like, oh, this is what I'm gonna do. Yes, I'm gonna go make it.
- [33:16]
Reshma Saujani
Oh, God, what an incred. This show is sponsored by Thrive Market. I don't know about you, but we've had our household dominated by sweets this holiday season. Finding snacks that satisfy your kids that aren't holiday candy leftovers isn't exactly easy. That's why I'm so grateful for Thrive Market. They make it simple to find healthier kid approved swaps for all those sugary junk filled favorites. One of my favorite features is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. It's a total game changer. I just scan a product my son loves, like his favorite chips or crackers, and the app shows me cleaner, healthier alternatives. We've made some great swaps. We've been loving the Annie's Mac and cheese and we've replaced the salty store crackers for simple mills crackers. We love them and I feel good knowing we're eating something nutritious. Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding safe, healthy food. All their products are 100% non GMO and free from over 1000 harmful ingredients. The best part, everything gets delivered straight to my door so I don't have to stress about searching grocery aisles or reading tiny ingredient lists. Ready for a junk free start to 2025, head to thrivemarket.com midlife and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T H R I V E market.com midlife thrivemarket.com midlife when was the last time you listened to your gut? In the new year, There's a lot of misleading information floating around about food and weight loss. Did you know there's a lot of misleading information about ultra processed foods? Trying to frame them as healthy. That's why now is the best time to look into Zoe. Backed by one of the world's largest microbiome databases and most scientifically advanced at home gut health tests, Zoe gives you proven science whenever you need it. Your Zoe membership starts by testing your gut health and making smart food choices. From there, Zoe is science led and proven to work in a randomized controlled trial. Trust your gut. Trust Zoe. Go to Zoe.com to find out what Zoe membership could do for you. And because you listen to my so called midlife, you can use the exclusive code ZOE20 to get 10% off membership. As a Zoe member, you get an at home test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your gut. That's z o e.com use Zoe20 at checkout. So we gotta talk about Real Housewives.
- [36:14]
Bizoma St. John
Yes, we do.
- [36:15]
Reshma Saujani
Okay, so you're the newest member of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Yeah. I gotta say, you came on the show with like, a point of view, knowing exactly who you are. No surprise. You're like, I'm not publicly bound down to anybody. I gotta ask you this.
- [36:30]
Bizoma St. John
Yes, yes, please.
- [36:31]
Reshma Saujani
When I watch reality TV shows, it sometimes feels like it's another space and place that was built kind of without people like you and me.
- [36:39]
Bizoma St. John
Yes, yes, yes.
- [36:41]
Reshma Saujani
So how are you breaking through?
- [36:44]
Bizoma St. John
So here's the real scoop, right? Because sometimes it's hard to have these conversations in like, small sound bites. The real truth of it is that one, I knew I needed a bigger platform.
- [36:55]
Reshma Saujani
That's right.
- [36:56]
Bizoma St. John
In order to tell the story that I need to tell, there are very few spaces to do that. There's been way too much feedback of like, oh, Bose, you can't do that. You can't do this, you can't do that. And I'm like, well, why can't I? Okay, well, I'm just gonna continue doing exactly what I wanna do. It worked 20 years ago, it's gonna work now. I could do whatever the hell I wanna do. Who's gonna stop me? And so having that kind of unapologetic attitude allowed me to look at the entire space and say, what is going to get me in front of people faster? And then on top of that, I'm like, well, you know, just because they act a particular way, it doesn't mean I have to act that way.
- [37:36]
Reshma Saujani
Right.
- [37:37]
Bizoma St. John
Again, like, my entire life and career, I have never had to conform to a space. Cause it just I wasn't allowed to. And so I've always had to make my own space. So why would this be different? Why would I have to come in and act like a whole bunch of other ladies that have been on the show? I don't have to do that. I don't have to do anything that they tell me to do.
- [37:58]
Reshma Saujani
And I don't know if that's what people want to watch. Like, I want to watch you telling this story, not fighting some catty fight with like about, I don't even know.
- [38:07]
Bizoma St. John
You know, about nothing, what's really interesting, or for me, anyway, coming into it. And the conversation I was having with producers, with everybody is just like, hey, look, I understand storytelling. I understand the pathway that you need to take in order to make television interesting. However, it can't be one note, you know, yes, of course, there's always conflict in a group of friends and you know, you need to figure out, like, who's doing what and why they did it and blah, blah, blah, blah. However, it can be elevated. It doesn't have to be small. You have, you and I, we've just talked about my life and how dramatic it's been for numerous reasons. And so why would I have to resort to name calling anybody when there's enough going on in my life that has its own drama? You know, it's like you think building a company is just a cakewalk. It's not. There's lots of conflict in there. And do you think that having lived a life of widowhood for 11 years and raising my daughter alone, you know, trying to find love again, has that been easy? Oh, girl, no. And so there is so much more that you can get in a life which has been lived that I don't have to resort to name calling and pointing fingers at people for pithy things in order to be interesting on television. And so when you see me on the show, you will say, oh, I know her.
- [39:41]
Reshma Saujani
I watched. And I was like, that's my friend. It's so cool that you have literally stayed true to yourself, even. Even on reality tv.
- [39:50]
Bizoma St. John
Yeah. Same person, same person, same outfits. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? I'm showing up in the same way. And my hope is that by doing that, I am still representing, you know, for the corporate girlies who are doing it their own way, you know, maybe some who aspire to be themselves wholly and completely and who haven't gotten there yet, you know, and so if I can do that, if I can be that, and it will be okay and likable, then you know what? I think we can change actually the way that this industry sees us and the kind of entertainment we need.
- [40:32]
Reshma Saujani
That's right.
- [40:33]
Bizoma St. John
Look, I'm not judging anybody. I'm like, look, you want to go ahead and square up and squabble, do that. Okay. That's your life. But it's not my life.
- [40:41]
Reshma Saujani
Mic drop. This is the best conversation. Thank you. This was so powerful.
- [40:46]
Bizoma St. John
Oh, I love you, Reshma.
- [40:48]
Reshma Saujani
I love you, too.
- [40:49]
Bizoma St. John
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the conversation.
- [40:52]
Reshma Saujani
I'm so, so proud of you. I can't. I can't tell you, like, on how many different layers and places that you just a role model for so many of us. I love you.
- [41:02]
Bizoma St. John
Thank you. So.
- [41:14]
Reshma Saujani
If you want to get even more of Bazoma's wisdom, watch her on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and read her book, the Urgent Life. See you all next week. There's more of my so called Midlife with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive exclusive access to bonus content like midlife advice that didn't make it into the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Rashmi Sejani. Our producer is Claire Jones. This series is sound designed by Ivan Koraev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Kuraev and performed by Ryan Jewell, Ivan Koraev and Karen Waltock. Our senior supervising producer is Kristen Lepore. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in the show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye. Why, hello there. This is your pal Sarah Silverman. You know, the standup comic that's not afraid of a diarrhea joke. Oh, my God, I'm so brave. I hope you're enjoying this podcast that you're listening to. I am just dropping in here to let you know about another podcast I think you'd like, and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week, listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life, anything, their silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situations. And then I respond, whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead, search for the Sarah Silverman Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
- [43:29]
Bizoma St. John
Bye.
- [43:30]
Reshma Saujani
People love to pretend that there are simple formulas for living your best life. Now eat this and you won't get sick. Manifest it and everything will work out. But there are some things you can choose and some things you can't. And it's okay that life isn't always getting better. I'm Kate Bowler, and on Everything Happens, I speak with kind, smart, funny people about life as it really is. Beautiful, terrible, and everything in between. Let's be human together. Everything Happens is available wherever you get your podcasts.