← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
Introducing: Confessions of a Female Founder with Meghan
00:42:42
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- [00:01]
Reshma Saujani
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- [01:35]
Megan Markle
Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcast.
- [02:11]
Reshma Saujani
Lemonada hey everyone, it's me, Reshma. I'm so excited to share something that I think you're gonna find both inspiring and really insightful. Confessions of a Female Founder. It's a new podcast from Megan, the Duchess of Sussex from Lebanon Media. As Megan sets out to build a business of her own. She's getting advice and insights from a handful of amazing women who have scaled small ideas into successful companies. These fly on the wall conversations will no doubt inspire anyone who's interested in turning their own entrepreneurial dreams into a reality, and anyone else who just wants to hear what really happens behind the scenes. And guess what? I got to join Megan for one of these episodes. She and I first connected when Girls who Code was launching in the uk and we've stayed in touch ever since. This time we sat down to talk about the messy, beautiful work of building systems that actually work for women, plus what it really looks like to choose your health, your sanity, and yourself over work. I hope you'll give it a listen. To hear more episodes follow Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan or hit the link in the show notes I'm sitting there the next day I've pissed off everybody I'm broke and no one's calling me oh no, no one's calling.
- [03:36]
Megan Markle
Me I'm Megan and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today.
- [03:51]
Reshma Saujani
No time to get down cause I'm moving up no time to get down cause I'm mo no time to get down cause I'm moving up.
- [04:03]
Megan Markle
Behind the scenes. There are so many struggles that female founders don't post about. They don't even talk about the moments when you feel broken, when things don't go as planned, when simply showing up feels like a huge feat. And yet we do it. We push through, we keep smiling, we keep going out there. You get on the panel, you do the thing. And at a certain point, though, it does raise the question, how do we redefine what it means to be a female founder without just running ourselves into the ground?
- [04:37]
Reshma Saujani
And if that happens, we're gonna lose a generation of social entrepreneurs that we desperately need to continue these fights. And so we gotta show em a different way. We gotta do it a different way.
- [04:49]
Megan Markle
Today's episode is about fighting for what you believe in and all the highs and the lows that come with it. And that's precisely why I wanted to talk to Reshma Sajani. She founded not one, but two incredible nonprofits that helped close the gender gap for women, first with Girls who Code and now with Moms First. She's lived the pressures of building a business both behind the scenes and in the spotlight. And her candid take on leading a movement. It's going to make you rethink how to fight for what you believe in. Let's get into it. Welcome.
- [05:29]
Reshma Saujani
Thank you.
- [05:30]
Megan Markle
I'm so happy you're here. It's been a while.
- [05:33]
Reshma Saujani
It's been a long time. I saw you. Do you remember different circumstances. Long time.
- [05:38]
Megan Markle
Yes. Life was diff. Well, I mean, we had met.
- [05:44]
Reshma Saujani
You were very pregnant.
- [05:45]
Megan Markle
Oh, my gosh. Yes. It would have been 2018. Pregnant with Archie at Kensington Palace.
- [05:51]
Reshma Saujani
Yes.
- [05:52]
Megan Markle
How did you end up at that meeting with me?
- [05:54]
Reshma Saujani
Because you're an amazing human.
- [05:56]
Megan Markle
Oh, my God.
- [05:57]
Reshma Saujani
It's true. And we were bringing girls who code to England, and we were looking to expand, and you generously met with me.
- [06:08]
Megan Markle
Oh, that's kind to say generous. I was thrilled to learn more at the time, I would say even the idea of coding and stem. Do you remember that's when things were transitioning from stem to steam?
- [06:18]
Reshma Saujani
Yep. Yep.
- [06:19]
Megan Markle
It was so new, and it was definitely new for me. But I remember you came in, we sat in the audience room, and I just said, tell me all about it. But. But it was such a great sit down because it was an eye opener for me of so many other ways in which women were showing up for young girls. And I'm curious to get into how that became your focal point, but can we just start. Well, before that, can we go way, way back? Take us back to the beginning.
- [06:49]
Reshma Saujani
So, you know, for me, my. My parents came here as refugees. My mother was actually several months pregnant with my sister when they came, they had no money, and the Catholic church took them in, fed them, sheltered them, clothed them. And so I've always had this, like, deep, like, love for this country and from. For that spirit. Right. Of. Of empathy that we shelter and that we love and then we care for those who have been displaced. So I. That it was always in my blood that I wanted to give back to the country. I wanted to do public service, and I wanted to, you know, fight for those who didn't have a voice, which.
- [07:33]
Megan Markle
Is beautiful and also completely confounding when you know more about your upbringing, how you were bullied, how you were mistreated, how you were beaten up. For a lot of people, that would devolve into, no, no, I'm not showing up in the spirit of love anymore. I've been too bruised and beaten. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because you grew up in Chicago and what was it like?
- [08:00]
Reshma Saujani
You know, no one's ever asked me that before. Because you're right. I could have turned to anger and hate, given what I was going through. And I went the opposite way. You know, my parents came here in the 70s, grew up in, like a working class town, you know, outside of Chicago, Illinois. There were no brown people. And, you know, my mom was still wearing her sari and her bindi on her head. Going to the Kmart, right? Still eating Indian food. And, you know, back then, it was all about assimilation. You know, my father went to Toastmasters to get rid of his accent. Like, he literally changed his name from Mukun to Mike. He still signs my birthday cards. Like, love, Mike. But back then, it's like if you wanted to fit in, you had to just change. Like, you know, I mean, and that's kind of how we felt too, right? I remember being so mad, Megan, that, like, my mom named me Reshma. I'm like, why didn't you just name me Rita or Rachel? Because everyone be like, how do I say it right? And, you know, we'd have a lot of money. So we were wearing the Kmart shoes and the wrong jeans and, like the wrong shirt. And remember, it was all like, you know, forensic sweatshirts and, like feathers and like, you know, the 90s, like, oh.
- [09:13]
Megan Markle
The sparkly BB shirt that said BB in sequins across the front. I saved up for that.
- [09:18]
Reshma Saujani
Yes, totally. And we had none of the. We had like the knockoff version, you know what I mean, of all of that. But so I really tried to be white. Like, I tried to be those other girls and deny my culture and all of it. And, you know, every day I would get made fun of and bullied. And one day, I don't know, there was nothing special about that day, Megan. I just. When challenged to go to the. To the back of the school, you know, for a fight, I was. I was like, okay. Instead of just getting on the bus. Wow. And that day changed my life, right, Because I got beat up pretty bad. But I also realized I'm not white and I'm never gonna be. And I have a responsibility to actually teach people about difference. Like, literally. I went to freshman year of high school and started a club called prism, like the Prejudice Reduction Interested Students Movement. Horrible name. I got better at that.
- [10:14]
Megan Markle
It's quite the acronym, it really. But it's definitely high impact for a 12 or 13 year old girl to come up with that. It says a lot.
- [10:22]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah, I guess it does. So, yeah, I think I turned to hope. I turned to hope.
- [10:27]
Megan Markle
I mean, honestly, it just says so much about your character to look yourself in the mirror and really see who you are. But Even from that moment, you're still at a crossroads where you could have chosen, you know what? I am going to be an entrepreneur, and I'm gonna build a business, and I'm going to be so successful. But instead, your activist spirit is what came through. Always wanting to affect change.
- [10:52]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah. I realized early on what my gift was, so I started going to Model UN and debate, and I realized, ooh, I can give speech. Like, I can communicate. And I actually feel at home on stage. And I'm thinking, the way to make a difference is to run for office. I'm in love with Dr. King and Mahatma Gandhi, John F. Kennedy. Like, back then, I thought, politics, politics. And you can. You know, how to communicate. Like, that's where you go. And so I, you know, volunteer on my first campaign, the 92 Clinton campaign, fell in love with politics and Washington and Hillary Clinton and the whole thing. And I'm looking at all these people like a Hillary. Like, you know, and they all got a degree from Harvard, and they're all lawyers. And so maybe that's my path. Right. I'm going to Yale Law School. That's where I'm going. I applied three times. Don't get in. You know what I mean? Finally get in.
- [11:46]
Megan Markle
But not just finally get in. Didn't you make a plea to the dean? Didn't you just really go in? What did you say?
- [11:53]
Reshma Saujani
Well, so I had this mentor, Leon Higginbotham Jr. He was, like, the first federal black jurist on the Third Circuit Court. And he becomes my mentor every Sunday. I am at him and Evelyn's house listening to, like, the heroes of the civil rights movement. And it is just. I love Leon. And Leon's like, oh, girl, you're getting in. Like, when you go to Yale Law School, when you walk in, there's my photo. Like, I got you. And he dies, and he doesn't write my recommendation letter.
- [12:25]
Megan Markle
Oh, I didn't. Okay.
- [12:27]
Reshma Saujani
Before he dies.
- [12:28]
Megan Markle
Okay.
- [12:29]
Reshma Saujani
So I'm devastated, and I don't have a recommendation letter. And it's like, it's his funeral. Everybody is there. And at the funeral, I meet the assistant of the dean of Yale Law School and kind of, like, she feels sorry for me. And she was like, I'll get an appointment for you. And she kind of squeezes me in. Dean Crom and schedule. And I go to New Haven and make my pitch. And Dean Cromwin's like, listen, I'll make you a deal. Like, you've gotten into all these other schools. Like, I got into Penn and Northwestern. I mean, like, right, like really good schools. And he's like, I'll make you a deal. Like, just go at any of those schools, and if you get into the top 10%, I'll let you come to Yale.
- [13:15]
Megan Markle
Oh, wow.
- [13:15]
Reshma Saujani
So I go to Georgetown. I don't make one friend. I study every single day. I am just super focused, right? Like getting straight A's so I can go to Yale. But it was such a lesson, Megan, in, like, I was just so narrowly focused that I had to have that Yale law degree so I could go do the things that I wanted to do. Not understanding that, I was just letting life and its experiences just pass me by. What happens then is that Bush v. Gore happens. And I'm thinking, I'm going into public interest, right? I'm going to go work at the naacp, right? Like civil rights. That's what I want to do. Bush wins. No one's going to D.C. you know, and I'm like, oh, and I'm $300,000 in student loan debt. I guess I'm going to go work for the man in New York at a law firm, which I hate. And that's when I run for office. Take this crazy chance, right, in running in a primary. I was 33 years old. My name was Rachma Sajani. There had never been a South Asian woman to ever run before. I run for United States Congress, I lose, like, spectacularly. I mean, it's like, not even close. But I had, like, convinced John Legend to do, like, two concerts for me, like Jack Dorsey. Like, I had, like, I had, like, hustled the whole world right into thinking that, like, I'm winning this upstart race, right? And it is not even close. Like, I am crushed. And the biggest kind of aha for me was I'm sitting there the next day, I'm in my, like, 400 square foot lower east side apartment. I have pissed off everybody in the Democratic establishment because I didn't wait my turn. I ran against another Democrat. I'm broke because I spent a year running for office instead of working. And no one's calling me. Oh, no, no one's calling me. But the biggest kind of, I think, moment that changes my life is I realized, like, oh, my God, like, this was the thing that I thought that I was supposed to do. Run for office, be a politician, be a public servant. The very thing that I had been driving towards Yale, all of that was about this destination. It doesn't happen for me. But when I wake up the next morning, I'm like, oh, like, I'm not broken. Yeah, this sucks. But like, I'm not broken. Huh? I think we think as women that when we try something, especially something we want so bad and it doesn't work out, that it will break us and we won't be able to, like, wake up the next day. We won't be able to continue on, forget about, like, the humiliation and the judgment and all that. I think there's a sense that, like, failure will cripple you.
- [16:07]
Megan Markle
Right? That it will break you as opposed to break you open for the possibility of more.
- [16:13]
Reshma Saujani
Exactly. And so now the thing doesn't happen and I'm like, huh? There's a lot of things that I should maybe fail at and try and learn. And that's the path.
- [16:24]
Megan Markle
Yeah. And when it breaks open, it leaves space and room for so much more. Love, growth, resilience to all. Pour in.
- [16:32]
Reshma Saujani
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- [18:13]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
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- [19:28]
Reshma Saujani
Once the temps start rising, I realized I was back in the same worn out rotation. Same tank, same shorts, same everything. So I gave my daily uniform an upgrade with quints. Their pieces are easy, elevated and somehow make me feel more put together without even trying. Like 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30 Luxe Swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals and so much more. The best part? Everything with quince is priced $50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices in premium fabrics and finishes. This summer I want to pick pieces that I can wear all summer long, including on my upcoming vacations. So I picked up the organic cotton gauze smocked sleeveless maxi dress, the European linen crop tank and a pair of their Italian leather lug sole fisherman sandals. I know I can rotate these pieces all year long and pair them with my closet staples. I can always count on Quince to deliver high quality items that I instantly fall in love with and make it easy to elevate my summer looks. Treat your closet to a little summer glow up with quince Go to quince.com midlife for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com midlife to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com midlife when was the last time you needed to go to the doctor but you pushed it off? Made the excuse I'm too busy, it'll heal on its own or I don't know which doctor to go to. I think we've all been there. Booking a doctor's appointment can feel just so daunting. But thanks to ZocDoc, there's no reason to delay. They make it so easy to find and book a doctor who's right for you. ZocDoc is a free app and a website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. We're talking about booking in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health to dental health, primary care to urgent care, and more. My favorite ZocDoc features that you can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, are a good fit for any medical need you have, and are highly rated by verified patients. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings. Choose a time slot that works for you, and click to instantly book a visit. Appointments made through Zocdoc also happen fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even score same day appointments, which is perfect for my busy schedule. I've been on the search for a nutritionist to help balance my meals and navigate what I should eat during menopause. Through Zocdoc, I was able to finally stop procrastinating and find a nutritionist within my network with same day appointments. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com midlife to find an instantly book a top rated doctor today that Z O c d o c.com midlife zocdoc.com midlife.
- [22:21]
Megan Markle
Why STEM? What made you realize how big of a deal it was?
- [22:26]
Reshma Saujani
I mean, I always say like if I had applied to be the CEO of Girls who Code, I wouldn't have gotten the job. I didn't code. I'd never coded before. Yeah, right. Like I majored in Poly Science, Speech Communications and the only thing I'd ever built was a failed campaign and you.
- [22:41]
Megan Markle
Don'T really think of coding as the person who's on the stage giving the speeches. You think of it as the person who's behind the keyboard and.
- [22:47]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah. And you know, those coding jobs, they paid a lot, like, like $120,000 a year. And when I saw that girls and girls of color, poor girls, were not going into these fields, in my mind, like, they weren't going into the fields that would help them, like, march up into the middle class and change their entire trajectory for them and their families. And that's what, like, drove me to coding and technology.
- [23:13]
Megan Markle
Well, and the creation for access in such a different way. Right. For that next step that they may have otherwise not even had a window to peer in through to know that that was a room that was worth going into.
- [23:24]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah. And you're working on this now also, like, the things that they're going to create, like bullying. Right. Like, what are they doing on these problems that they experience? Right. Whether it's bullying, whether it's health, whether it's sexual harassment. Right. Like, they're. If they know how to code, they can build tools that are going to help solve problems that are faced by.
- [23:45]
Megan Markle
Women and girls completely. And now as we look at all the different modal and AI and everything else, to really get ahead of how they can be integral in the creation of those next phases of tech. So. But what was the big break with Girls who Code? When did people start paying attention and you went, oh, I'm actually onto something here?
- [24:04]
Reshma Saujani
So, okay. I thought nonprofits are slow. They don't get anything done. Like, nothing happens. Like, it's just. It's not for me. Right. Like, I want to be where the action is. I want to be where the real change is. So I ran Girls who Code, and now Mom's first, like, a tech company.
- [24:20]
Megan Markle
Oh, interesting.
- [24:21]
Reshma Saujani
Big scale, big numbers, hard driving, big change. KPI's destination where we want to go with, like, essentially like, a nonprofit lens. So it was always kind of like unicorns and rainbows. I'll be honest. Right. Like, sometimes you have an idea and the world just collides to make that happen. And so Girls who Code was a little like that right from the beginning. People are like, oh, yeah, this needs to exist.
- [24:52]
Megan Markle
But we all also know that fundraising for nonprofits can be really hard. I mean, maybe not as hard with unicorns and rainbows there, but it can be hard.
- [25:00]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah.
- [25:00]
Megan Markle
What do you think one tip is for people who are starting specifically a nonprofit, how do you get funders?
- [25:07]
Reshma Saujani
So here's the thing. I, very early on at Girls who Code got Jack Dorsey to support it. And back then, everybody was like, oh, Jack's doing it great, and I'll stay with mom's first, it was you, like, very early on, you were like, oh, paid leave this movement, Moms. Yes. And I think the thing is, for people and entrepreneurs, it does help to get an early adopter, especially one that people admire. Right. And that people want to follow and see as, like, a guidepost. And so, yeah, for Girls who Code, it was really Jack. And, you know, for moms first, it was you and Melinda.
- [25:41]
Megan Markle
Oh, wow, that's. I didn't realize that. That's. So I'm glad that I could be additive in any way. I think one of the pieces of advice I was given early on, maybe not even advice, but insight, was when you're looking at funding for a nonprofit or even in business building, but specifically in the nonprofit sector, yes, you want to get one hook because it makes other people feel confident coming in. But in those conversations, if you go to someone and you ask for money, they're likely gonna give you advice. And if you go to someone and you ask for advice, they're much more likely to give you money.
- [26:16]
Reshma Saujani
That's a good tip. All right, I'm taking that one to the bank.
- [26:21]
Megan Markle
Just go for advice, because otherwise, people aren't immediately feeling pressurized. You're just going for advice, and then if it makes sense for them, they'll offer up what they think you might need as opposed to going in with an ask. So different Small distinction, but it makes a big difference, I think. I really like that you have this quote that I love that was, leaders cannot or should not stay in organ organizations forever.
- [26:43]
Reshma Saujani
Yes.
- [26:43]
Megan Markle
You can't stay innovative if you have the same person leading the movement forever. Such an interesting insight, because a lot of people, I think in that same pursuit of success as we're talking about, especially as female founders, stepping away could feel like failure, as opposed to the choice, the active choice you make to say, no, I'm not just doing this for myself. I'm doing this for this organization.
- [27:07]
Reshma Saujani
So, you know, I knew it was time to step away from Girls who Code. One, because I actually don't think anyone should run anything for more than eight years. And then, two, this energy I was feeling around motherhood and Moms first and this need to fight for childcare and paid leave, like there was something I knew that I wanted to do. So I had this amazing CEO who's now our CEO, Dr. Tarika Barrett and I'd always wanted her to run the organization. And so it's like, middle of COVID I know it's time. And one, I know if I tell anybody that I wanna step down, including my husband, he's gonna talk me out of it. So I don't tell anybody. I get on a train, I like, basically say, tariq, I need to meet with you. And I'm like, I'm ready, and I think you're ready. And she said, all right, let's go. So one, I think it was so important for me to pick a successor, especially a woman of color, and give her the opportunity of, like, the fruits of my labor. Right. Because building Girls of Code almost killed me, Megan. You know, I was always on a plane. I was always just hustling. But I had built something that I knew was sustainable because I had rebuilt it. During the pandemic, I had money in the bank, right? So, like, oftentimes, if you're a new CEO taking over an organization, you're terrified. Like, fundraising is hard. So I knew I could give her something that, like, had legs. But it was such an interesting lesson because the day we were transitioning, my assistant said to me, okay, I'm going to get you a conference room, and you're going to get so many emails, so many people are going to call you that we just. We got to block out three hours. So Tareka and I send the email. She's in one room. I'm in one room. Press send. Crickets.
- [28:46]
Megan Markle
Oh, no, Crickets.
- [28:47]
Reshma Saujani
Tareka calls me a couple hours later. She's like, oh, my God. Like, it's been so amazing, the amount of emails and the phone calls. And she's like. She's like, how's it been for you? And I didn't want to tell her, right. That no one had called me. But it was such an important lesson on, like, this is why people don't give up power. Because when you don't have power, you're not important anymore, right? So it's so easy to hold onto it because your identity is so caught up in it. But that, to me, was part of the work, right. From an ego perspective, being able to let it go, give somebody else that light, knowing that, like, it was going to actually diminish my power, Right? My resources, my access. But that was the point. Hmm.
- [29:33]
Megan Markle
I mean, that is. That is a lot of. I'm not gonna say work. I'm talking about self work. That is a lot of growth. That takes people a tremendous amount of time to settle into the confidence to be able to do that and to not feel rattled when the phone's not ringing. To not feel rattled when you've stepped out of the light, so to speak. But as you step out of the light, you're actually stepping into your own light in a different way and creating space for someone else to be in the light, which is probably the larger. All of us being here.
- [30:06]
Reshma Saujani
That's so beautiful. So true.
- [30:08]
Megan Markle
And I'll bring this up if you're comfortable talking about it. Cause I know you've spoken publicly about, as you were doing, girls who code, all the interpersonal things that are happening for you at that time and the miscarriages that you've experienced. I've spoken about the miscarriage that we experienced.
- [30:24]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah.
- [30:25]
Megan Markle
And I think in some parallel way, when you have to learn to detach from the thing that you have so much promise and hope for, and to be able to be okay at a certain point, to let something go, something go that you plan to love for a long time, that's. Does that.
- [30:48]
Reshma Saujani
That's really insight.
- [30:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [30:49]
Reshma Saujani
I was gonna say, I feel like you're, like, reading my diaries. Like, that's really insight. It's really insightful because I don't think anyone's seen it that way, like, said it that way for me, but that's right, because, you know, here I was for so many years, like, trying to get pregnant, having miscarriages, because I had autoimmune issues. And I got into this really, like, kind of scary habit where I would be at a doctor's office, and they'd be like, you have no heartbeat. And I should have just gone home and gone to sleep and curled up with my husband. But I would just take a breath, and I would just show up in a living room, in a stage and just perform. And oftentimes I was, like, performing in front of these children that I desperately wanted. And I just got really good at that. But it was eating me up inside. And it wasn't until my second where I was again on this path of serial miscarriages. And I remember just one day, it was like, I was in California. I had to get on a plane and go to Utah to speak to, like, I don't know, like, a thousand girls and, like, the governor. And like, that morning, I get a call from the doctor, and they're like, okay, your HCG levels are not going up. You're going to miscarry. And I just got on a plane, and I was sitting there in front of these girls, and my Heart was just breaking. And I remember saying, this is it. I'm not doing it again. And I went to my team and I said, guys. And I'd never told them I was going through this. I mean, they kind of knew because they would see these doctor's appointments on my schedule. But I never, like, just said, I need. And I said, I can't do this anymore. I need you to take over. I need you to run this organization. I need a month. I need a couple months just to just breathe.
- [32:50]
Megan Markle
That takes so much courage to say it.
- [32:52]
Reshma Saujani
It did. It did. But it's right. It's because I had to detach because I felt like I was letting the girls down. I mean, how ironic is that, right? In my quest to become a mother, that just all I want. You have this beautiful line that I quote all the time, that the most important title I have is Mom. And I so desperately wanted that title.
- [33:14]
Megan Markle
Oh, you know, I do.
- [33:17]
Reshma Saujani
And I just. It was the irony of it all, you know, was a lot.
- [33:23]
Megan Markle
Yes. But that in. In the journey, how many layers come up and then you can start to recognize those patterns in your business, in your life, in. You know, I was. What is that book? I actually think I have it here. My friend just sent me this passage yesterday. It's called the Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse. It's a children's book that came out of the UK a couple years ago. But at any rate, beautiful illustrations. I have to get it for you. But the quote is, what is the bravest thing you've ever said? Asked the boy. Help, said the horse. And at a certain point you go, the courage that it takes for a female founder, the courage that it takes for a woman. When you're on this path, you're on this grind, you've set expectations. The courage that it takes to say, I need help or I need to pause is tremendous. And there is no way to continue to show up and role model for these young women all the things that you aspire for them to have, that you wanted to have when you were a young girl if you are not doing it with complete authenticity because you are so close to being burned out.
- [34:41]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny, I don't know how to learn this lesson. I'm going to be honest. Like, a couple weeks ago, you know, I had a breast exam and they thought they saw something. And then I had to get a biopsy, and I had never gotten a biopsy before, so I didn't know what to expect. But they're like, you know what? It's just a pinch. You'll be fine. And I had a panel that night, and I know now from DNCs and C sections and, like, IUDs that it's not a pinch. So, like, I keep my schedule right. I keep it all. I tell my husband's, like, let me come with you. I'm like, no, no, no, no, I'm good. I got it. I'm fine.
- [35:16]
Megan Markle
No.
- [35:18]
Reshma Saujani
And it hurt like hell. Right? My whole. Right. And I go and I do the panel, and I'm sitting there, and I'm like, what is wrong with you? Like, you know better than this. What is wrong with you? And I think it's so hard to unlearn what this is really about. Cause I think, one, it's personal. But two, like, the sense of, like, I'm strong, I'm resilient. I can take it. I got it. Right. Because all these things have served me. It's why I've been able to do the things that I do. And then I think we live in the society that encourages women to do that. And the sense that, like, we don't break and we're not allowed to break.
- [36:00]
Megan Markle
Not allowed to break. You have to keep smiling. All of these constructs that I think we've all been prey to and have projected. And at a certain point, I mean, I often find, too, even in the advocacy work or showing up and wanting to. That you go, am I saying the thing? But I'm not doing the thing.
- [36:21]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah.
- [36:23]
Megan Markle
And when can we start taking our own advice? What do you think that pivot point will be? When will the inflection point happen where women, especially the ones who are leading in these movements and leading in this messaging, to actually integrate that advice and not just know it or intellectualize it, to integrate it for you to say, yeah, you know, honey, I am gonna clear the rest of my schedule after this appointment, and please, can you drive me and come with me?
- [36:46]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I'm seeing, you know, a lot of the women. I just went to Cecile Richards funeral. So you're seeing a lot of these women who've given themselves to the movement, who've had real health scares and challenges, and, you know, that they're not connected. Right. Meaning, like, we expect the people that are trying to fight for women and girls to always be on, to always be working. We also know at the same time that there's no finish line.
- [37:13]
Megan Markle
Yeah. And that the body holds the score.
- [37:15]
Reshma Saujani
Exactly. Exactly. And especially for women of color. Right. Who are always like, oh, but you should go fight and you should go fight and you should go save us. That we can't continue to operate that way. And so I think we have to. Just because one of the things I'm seeing, I don't have as many young girls or young women reaching out to me on LinkedIn, being like, Ms. Sejani, I also wanna start a nonprofit. How do I do that? I think that they're looking at us and seeing how exhausted we are, how tired we are, how much you have to sacrifice and saying, yeah, no thank you.
- [37:46]
Megan Markle
Oh wow.
- [37:47]
Reshma Saujani
And if that happens, we're gonna lose a generation of social entrepreneurs that we desperately need to continue these fights.
- [37:53]
Megan Markle
Yeah.
- [37:53]
Reshma Saujani
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- [41:20]
Hasan Minhaj
I'm Hasan Minhaj and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists will are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren Is America too dumb for democracy? Outrageous parenting expert Dr. Becky how do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath?
- [41:45]
Reshma Saujani
It's a good question.
- [41:46]
Hasan Minhaj
Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know from Lemonada Media. Wherever you get your podcasts, are you.
- [41:51]
Megan Markle
Looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'M Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.
- [42:10]
Reshma Saujani
That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer.
- [42:12]
Megan Markle
And producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and.
- [42:15]
Reshma Saujani
Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.
- [42:18]
Megan Markle
Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media. So you mentioned before the break that a lot of these young female entrepreneurs that have that desire to build something are looking at their mentors and saying no, thank you.
- [42:33]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah.
- [42:33]
Megan Markle
Based on the burnout they're seeing. And so I guess the question is, how do we turn that around? Yeah. How do we show that perfect doesn't exist? And maybe that's part of the messaging, but also what does it look like now when you can find balance and.
- [42:46]
Reshma Saujani
It'S not one or the other? You know, one of the things I'm seeing in the motherhood movement is people think you have to pick being a girl boss or a trad wife, that it's black or white. Right. That either you're in the workforce and you can't focus on your kids and you don't get to see them, or you're just at home. And I think the point is, is that we' just presenting these like, polar opposite choices when really what we all want is something in the middle. I want to be able to pick my kids up, you know, at school every so often, give them a little hug and a kiss, have some flexibility, not be on the plane all the time. But I want to be able to crush it in the things that I care about.
- [43:20]
Megan Markle
Yes. Now you have the title of mom just like me favorite title. Love it. I love being a. Oh my gosh. I love being a mom so much. It's my favorite thing. It is the thing where you're like, oh my gosh, I just need a break. I just need a minute. I just need a minute. And the second that you step in the other room, you go, oh, but where are they? Let me, let me just pop. Let me just, let me scroll through pictures of the endlessly on my phone. And then you just, My husband's like, my love, can you just give yourself a minute? Why don't you go work out? Why don't you go take a bath? I'm like, I know, but I just want to cuddle for. It's the mo. It's the parenting paradigm where it is so full on and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I think what's really key about what you said. And the pandemic may have been the thing that shifted this when working from home and parenting from home, where they are completely converged, can feel incredibly overwhelming. How do you feel about that?
- [44:14]
Reshma Saujani
I feel like the way that we've built workplaces, we've set women up to fail, period. You know, and the thing I always think about, Megan, is like, look, we have the most educated workforce of women. Like 75% of the high school valedictorians are girls, right? Most of those getting their PhDs are girls. And we have to ask ourselves, why do we have the most educated population of women that have the lowest amount of participation in the labor force? And the reason is, is because when we become moms because of the cost of childcare, because of the lack of availability of childcare, because we just don't make it possible for you to do both. Oftentimes women are having to downshift or make choices. And the way we've tried to solve this problem is say, well, the problem is women, right? Like, you gotta get more confidence. You gotta power pose, you know, your way before a meeting. You gotta get a mentor, right? It's all about, you're wrong, you're broken, when really it's just structural. And what was so amazing about this in the pandemic is I think it gave us a window of what's possible. So, like, if you do have flexibility, if you can take care of your kid when they're sick and still get it on a meeting, right? If you still can not be set up to fail because the school day is 8:30 and the work day's 9 to 5, right? We can actually give people grace and flexibility and give women ownership over their time. You will actually see a shift.
- [45:41]
Megan Markle
And also with that comes the woman who is juggling it all and doing it all from home, being confident enough to tell the truth about what's going on. Because you can't give grace to someone in the same way if you just have no sense of it. You don't know if they. My kids, for example, right now, one has rsv, the other has influenza A. I hear a little pitter patter of feet upstairs. They're home from school, you know, coughs, are up all night and rubbing the back and this. And you go. And we still find a way to show up for both. But being able to be comfortable enough, and maybe that's to your earlier point, how we teach this generation who might not feel as inspired to do some of the change making that we Know has been so fundamental. Say no. Just be honest in the journey of it and say, yeah, today I'm going to show up for you, but I'm showing up for you in my sweatshirt today because I've been up all night with my babies. But I'm still going to be able to show up for both because both matter. And both are what keep my cup full.
- [46:37]
Reshma Saujani
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. We breastfed in closets. We didn't put. Right. We didn't put our kids picture on there. We, like, we're like, oh, my God, I'm sorry. I. You know, we completely, like I always say, like, you know, girls who go, but mostly women work for me, they get pregnant all the time and we kill it.
- [46:54]
Megan Markle
Right.
- [46:55]
Reshma Saujani
Like, I have built, like, two of the most fastest growing nonprofits, and we live our values. And so this sense of that, well, you know, it's, you're not gonna be productive or you're like, you know, watching Netflix while you're work. Like, it's just not true. And so we just have to. But there's so much resistant to change.
- [47:13]
Megan Markle
Yes.
- [47:14]
Reshma Saujani
And I do think that part of that is about having women ask for what they need. And our male allies. You know, one of the things that you've seen really shift in this remote work conversation is a lot of men are saying, okay, great, you want me to come back to work. Dads are saying, you need to support me in my childcare. You need to change your paid leave policies. Right. You need to allow me to be a parent and just thrive. But I think that is just absolutely right. Is like, how do we ask and demand what we need? I mean, you see it even in promotions, men will not. If they leave the workforce, they will go back, and they will not compromise on their salary. Whereas women, like, all right, you want to pay me 20% less? Okay, fine. Thank you.
- [47:58]
Megan Markle
Right. I know. It's true. It's true. And that's the shift that has to come. And I think, look, as you continue to grow out, I don't know what your next chapter looks like for you. Especially when you say eight years and then maybe time for a change. Now, you've already forecasted that in some way because we know your proof points of how that works.
- [48:20]
Reshma Saujani
Yeah.
- [48:21]
Megan Markle
What do you feel like your next chapter will be?
- [48:23]
Reshma Saujani
Well, listen, I love exposing cons. And I think one of the things with all of these things that are in common is one. What do you mean girls can't code? Yes, they can. And they can build incredible things. And what do you mean we can't redesign workplaces for women? Yes, we can. We need to pass childcare and paid leave. And, you know, the work I'm doing, my podcast right now, my so called midlife was like, I was in that inflection point between Girls who Code and Moms first. There was no third baby, right? Like, I was seeing wrinkles on my face that I hadn't seen before. My body was changing because of perimenopause. And I was just like, feeling like my best years are behind me. And I started working with my monk, Razanath, and that's when I started reading the Bhagavad Gita. Because I realized, like, all the things that were holding me back and the things that I were holding onto, and it just opened up such this incredible moment of one rethinking midlife for women. Because I think the view about midlife is so different for women and men, and we need to change it because we are living longer than we ever expected. Ever expected. And I don't know if you knew this, but, like, you know, the largest gender pay gap is for women above 50. Like, I have so many friends now who are approaching 15 who are like, I can't get that promotion. I can't become a partner at that venture fund. Like, I can't start that business. Like, the way we perceive women, their potential and their opportunity, I call it the midlife penalty for women really changes. And so to me, I think I will continue to do this work, right? I will continue to do this work about women. I have made the realization, though, Megan, we may not win in our lifetime.
- [50:08]
Megan Markle
Meaning what?
- [50:10]
Reshma Saujani
Meaning that I might die with women having less rights than they had when I was born. That we may not see a female president in my lifetime. That your daughters, my nieces, may still be fighting the same fights that we're fighting. And for me, that was a really hard reality to face in midlife because we went through all the things we sacrificed to our health, our family, and we have to say, God, is it worth it? Like, what is this the point? What is the point if we keep dismantling progress? And I think I've realized that probably me, you were put on this earth just like those suffragettes, to just keep hope alive, keep fighting, keep pushing, because, yeah, that's the point. You, like, you lose, you lose, you lose and then you win.
- [50:55]
Megan Markle
Yes, right?
- [50:56]
Reshma Saujani
You lose, lose, you lose, and then you win.
- [50:57]
Megan Markle
And sometimes, just when you think you're about to win. Oh, man, did that hurt? Cause that feels like Quite a loss, but you just keep going. And I think my understanding, especially in having this time to be able to hear your story and talk with you and see the commonality in some of these other equally successful women that I'm speaking with. We're gonna talk about what's behind every successful woman. What's behind every successful. What's behind every successful woman is self awareness. There comes a point where each of these women on their journeys has such a tremendous sense of self awareness, the desire to dig deeper that is unflappable.
- [51:41]
Reshma Saujani
I think that's right. And I think you realize, like, I don't care what other people think about me. Like, I'm not. I'm not doing this. I just. To me, I want to die knowing that I lived my fullest potential. And then I gave back to, like, I keep. Go back to my parents story, like, about the people that sheltered them, that took them in, that fed them. Like, I will continue to fight for our children to make sure that this, that this world is good, that they learn and see goodness. And I think that we have a role to play in that. But I think the lesson is, is that you got to do it with joy.
- [52:15]
Megan Markle
Yes.
- [52:16]
Reshma Saujani
And it can't come at an expense. Right. To your health or to your happiness or to your children.
- [52:22]
Megan Markle
Yes. And everything has some expense. Right. But when you're looking, what's the roi? What is your return on the investment of everything you're pouring into that. And at the end of the day, what you're doing is creating legacy. Well, whether you see those changes in your lifetime or our kids lifetime, it still steps in the right direction of what legacy is all about. And that, I think is one of the most fascinating, probably most powerful things about the journey of creation. As a female founder, you're creating something with lasting impact.
- [52:54]
Reshma Saujani
Well, thank you so much for all your. Seriously, Megan, there's so much gratitude and love towards you. I just hope, I hope you know that.
- [53:01]
Megan Markle
Thank you. And thank you for joining me today. I appreciate it. How far we've come, and yet here we are.
- [53:05]
Reshma Saujani
Here we are.
- [53:06]
Megan Markle
Wherever we go, here we are.
- [53:08]
Reshma Saujani
I really appreciate it.
- [53:09]
Megan Markle
All right, take good care.
- [53:10]
Reshma Saujani
Bye bye.
- [53:16]
Megan Markle
Next week we are talking to an iconic founder in the beauty industry. She is a hair colorist. She's a stylist. Stylist too. But my goodness, can this girl do some color? And she has turned her passion into products that people crave.
- [53:34]
Reshma Saujani
When I said the words, the world does not need another shampoo and conditioner, literally, I could have heard an Amen. From the crowd. Like people were over it.
- [53:43]
Megan Markle
Can you guess who it is? I'll see you then.
- [53:54]
Gretchen Rubin
Confessions of a Female Founder is a production of Lemonada Media created and hosted by Megan. Our producers are Catherine Barnes and Oha Lopez. Kristen Lepore is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Megan. Mix and sound design are by Johnny Van Zevans. Rachel Neal is our VP of new content and Production and Steve Nelson is our SVP of weekly content and production. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. There's more Confessions of a Female Founder with Lemonada Premium Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe in Apple Podcasts. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next week.
- [54:51]
Megan Markle
Great.
- [54:54]
David Duchovny
Hey everyone, it's David Duchovny. Do you ever feel like a failure? Trust me, I get it. Hell, I've spent my whole life almost feeling like a failure. It's appropriate though, because on Fail Better, my new podcast with Lemonada Media, exploring the world of failure, how it holds us back, propels us forward, and ultimately shapes our lives is the whole point. Each week I'll chat with artists, athletes, actors and experts about how our perceived failures have actually been our biggest catalysts for growth, revelation, and even healing. Through these conversations, I hope we can learn how to embrace the opportunity of failure and Fail Better together. Fail Better is out now. You can listen ad free on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [55:46]
Megan Markle
Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to women they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Hear new episodes each week ad free on Amazon Music. You can also ask Alexa Alexa, play Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan on Amazon Music and she will.