← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
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- [00:01]
Reshma Sajani
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Just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of my soulcloud Midlife Ad free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to an exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Feel Better with David Duchovny, and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show and Apple Podcasts. Make life Suck Less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. So I've talked to you before about how I'm not really looking forward to turning 50. Maybe it's because I'm still chasing my youth, or I still feel like shit after I go for a run that's more than five miles. Or maybe it's that I feel like the best of life is done. But after doing this podcast and having this conversation, I am definitely in a better space about approaching this milestone than I ever was was before. But I'm not as enthusiastic as Neha is. She's fully excited to turn the big five zero. And it's because she says at this stage in her life, she's got this superpower of perspective on what's most important. And it's probably because she took a pause to figure that out. Neha says she spent her teens and twenties on belonging and like me, she was like the only brown girl in every white town. So look, I can totally relate there. Her 30s for Neha were about finding her footing in her own skin. And now in her 40s, she feels like, yep, I got this now. Because in her 40s she knows that maybe she's not for everyone. She knows what's important and what's not. She's lucky that she's finally doing what she really cares about. And because she's coming into her 50s with all of that excitement, joy and perspective, she's ready for 50. She's excited about 50. So who is this woman that's looking forward to getting older? Neha Roosh is the author of the Power Pause and the founder of Mother Untitled, the leading platform for ambitious women embracing career pauses to focus on family. Look, almost everybody I know in New York has read her book and have really gotten something from it. People love the book because she provides tools, insights, and she talks about creating a community for women that are navigating this season with clarity, choice, and purpose. I loved this conversation with Neha because I walked away after my conversation with her and after reading the book with real, tangible steps to follow, especially if a pause is. Is something you're considering. How to prepare to leave, what to do on your paws, how to reenter the workforce, how to send an email telling people that you've taken a pause. She has literally created language, vision, and just validation for women to see time at home as not a detour or something to be ashamed of or embarrassed about, but as something that's powerful and an enriching chapter in this new part of their life. So let's dive in. Here's my conversation with Neha. Our favorite thing on the show, as an opener, is just talk about midlife mindset. And, like, how would you define these set of years that you're in right now? Like, how would you define this period of midlife in your life?
- [06:48]
Neha Roosh
I would say I have the superpower of perspective of what's most important.
- [06:54]
Reshma Sajani
Tell me more.
- [06:56]
Neha Roosh
I think I spent so much of my 20s and 30s working on belonging, you know, well, I think 20s were really about belonging, and 30, so feeling.
- [07:07]
Reshma Sajani
Like you belonged, like you were. You didn't. Wanting to belong, wanting to be, like, in the group, in the crew, in.
- [07:13]
Neha Roosh
The thing, and then 30s were really about finding my footing in my own skin and what I cared about. And 40s feel like I got it now, a hang of it. And I'm not for everyone. I know what's most important. I'm lucky to get to do what I care about. And that's it.
- [07:44]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, it's like, I don't give a fuck. 40s.
- [07:47]
Neha Roosh
Yeah, it's free. Yeah, free.
- [07:51]
Reshma Sajani
Freedom.
- [07:51]
Neha Roosh
I'm very excited about. I was actually just having breakfast with a friend, and she was like, do you feel like when I was. When I was younger, when she met me, so she was my best friend from business school, and she. She. I always rounded up my age. Like, I was always trying to pretend I was 30 when I was 27, you know, and she was like, do you feel like now that you're in your 40s, like, you don't have to round up anymore. And I was like, nah, I got my sight set on 50. Like, I'm pretty excited about 50. Wow.
- [08:16]
Reshma Sajani
Like, I'm turning 50 this year, Neha, and I'm not. And, and this, this podcast has actually helped my evolution in my feelings about midlife because I was not feel. I don't. I wasn't feeling great about this period, but I am still not running towards my 50s. Like, I'm still a little, I'm still, I'm still kind of mourning my age still. And for me, I think it's a lot about. I like to feel strong, I like to be able to move. Like I took up Pilates, for example. And of course, inevitably, you know, I take it up. And like I take anything up, it's like I overdo it. And before I know it, like I got sciatica, you know what I mean? And I can't move. And it's just. And then I'm like reminded that I'm fucking old and it depresses me. And so to me, that's where I feel like the ping of my age is in my body and my feeling like my body can't do the things that my 20 and 30 year old body was able to do.
- [09:12]
Neha Roosh
And I feel like every time I feel that pain because I have, I've had chronic hip issues. I mean, I have had early onset osteoporosis. It just makes me sound ridiculous. And I, I think when I see that, it just makes it very clear, like suddenly this thing that always felt like a luxury, right? Like working out, moving my body felt like a luxury. I like chronically under, like deprioritized it. I never, I a lot of pride and being like, oh, I don't work out, I don't do that. And now it's just not an option. I just feel like it brings things into focus. So every year just feels more focused. And I like that. I like.
- [09:53]
Reshma Sajani
That's beautiful because it's almost like the pain brings in the gratitude and like the appreciation. And so you appre. And it is true, like you appreciate what you are able to do at this age when you get a little sense of what it feels like to not be able to do it. So I want to start by getting at the, at the beginning, like, tell me where you were in your life. What was happening that made you say, I got to take a pause.
- [10:22]
Neha Roosh
I'd spent pretty much my teens. I moved to the states when I was 3 years old and I moved to an all white town outside of Boston. And I'd spent pretty much from the age of 6 years old trying to fit. And when I got to my 20s, I realized that work and the workforce could be my calling card, that could be my entree into the spaces. And it gave me so much worth and it gave me so much identity. And I was lucky. I graduated college right when Twitter was being born. And so they handed the 22 year old the reins on social media strategy and I was able to grow in my career. And suddenly I was in these rooms I'd wanted to be in very, um. And I went to business school to, you know, in my late 20s, I was already engaged. And I went because I wanted a train stop to surround myself with smart people and figure out what comes next. And I ended up landing what on paper was my dream job. I was running tech at a startup, you remember, as Zola and I had bode my first around the same time you did. And I looked at him in that rocking chair and I, you know, it was the beginning of my 30s. So we just talked about this a little bit. If I spent my through my teens, my 20s, trying to fit, suddenly I had my 30s. And I was looking at him thinking he doesn't want me to be anything besides what I am. Right? Like, it's not to say that. It's like I wasn't sleep deprived and it wasn't hard and like I didn't wonder where the hell my husband was and like all those things were happening. But there was a piece, I think I'd been looking for for a long time, a sense of safety in my own skin that I wanted more of. And I want to share that because I did not choose to downshift my career at that time, which I did initially I went part time, and then eventually I would pause a couple years later, but I did it. I didn't choose because it was better for him. Like all the data in the world, right? If you need research on it, go to Stuart Friedman's piece in Harvard Business Review. Your career impacts your children's zilch.
- [12:35]
Reshma Sajani
Mm. Yeah. I mean, Jonathan Haidt had a great podcast with Ezra Klein about that right now. It's like it's actually better for you to be gone.
- [12:41]
Neha Roosh
You know, I really think that sometimes I think my children would be better adjusted had I not gone. But I did do it because I wanted more of that time for myself. I wanted more time with him, and I wanted to figure out who I was gonna Be again.
- [12:52]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. Well, you just said something really powerful, which is like, you know. Cause I also grew up as a brown girl in a white town. And for me, I feel like a lot of my identity became wrapped up in my ability to be an activist. And I think what you're saying is like, you found home in working and that became your identity. Then you have this baby and you're like, oh, I don't need that anymore. I can free myself from the chains of this, this like, this sense of like not, not belonging, you know, and you gave and you wanted to then be there and explore that. And so you start by basically downshifting and working part time.
- [13:35]
Neha Roosh
Yeah, yeah. What did you.
- [13:37]
Reshma Sajani
When you. You've met and talked to so many women across the country. Right. About this, when you talk to them in the pause. And I want to, I want to share some stats because I think it's interesting. One out of three women who are in the work, who are currently working out of the home are going to pause their careers in the next few years. One in two are gonna downshift their hours, meaning they're gonna go part time or freelance. And 90% of women on the pause are gonna return to the workforce. What's fascinating about this is that the high level context is that we have the most educated population in the country. So the intention. Right. Of most women is like, I'm gonna work. And then something happens. In all the women you've talked to, your thing was like, you realize, oh, I don't. That doesn't need to be my day. I don't have to do that. What are some of the other things that as you met women have they have told you for why they paused? And not just the things that we say that we think we're supposed to say.
- [14:35]
Neha Roosh
Yeah, yeah, that you asked that. So you know, that's in the same research. So that came from the American Mothers on Pause survey, which I commissioned with proof insights in 2023. It was for 1200 at home parents across the country, 12 at home mothers, and a thousand members of the general population. So the data shows 87% of women will cite the very valid. Want to just spend time with their kids. Yeah. From there it becomes less stress in the home. And then 60% will cite financial considerations. One in three will say they feel forced. It wasn't a choice at all. Those are the top three reasons in the data shows. I would add what I've heard anecdotally, which I think is because yours was.
- [15:22]
Reshma Sajani
That either one, two or three or four of those.
- [15:24]
Neha Roosh
Correct. And I think this goes to what I think is so flawed in the way we talk about all these things, which is. It's so black and white. There's always a. There's always a mishmash of reasons, realistically. Right. And so in what I've heard on tour and in the woman I spoke to was, it was a combination of they'd clocked in 10 years in their career and they were just looking for something. They. It didn't feel worth it anymore.
- [15:52]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [15:53]
Neha Roosh
And. Or the other piece, which I really think you and I bond over, is that they tried to figure out a different way and there wasn't room for the different way.
- [16:06]
Reshma Sajani
That's right.
- [16:07]
Neha Roosh
And I think that's what we, you know, and I. And when I talk about the power pause, it's never to say that pauses are the right option. It's to say it's another valid option. But what we want is to see a number of options so that people can sort of test and learn what's working right now. But I think the really interesting piece is, you know, especially for this podcast, is that a lot of women who pause in their 40s are doing it because there's a little bit of reexamination that's happening.
- [16:38]
Reshma Sajani
That's right. That's right. And it's like, look, I mean, I think it's a reexamination of themselves too. Like, in many ways, our children give us the excuse and we don't even know they're giving us excuse. But it's probably for a lot of women, it is like, I want to spend more time with my children, or this is just too hard to have two full time jobs. But really what they're looking for is like a moment for their own time to reflect on what they want. Look, we're all trying to figure out how to work smarter, not harder. Whether that's automating our post meeting follow ups, or streamlining how we communicate and collaborate across teams. Fireflies turns your meetings into action so you can focus on achieving results. Fireflies is the number one AI teammate that transcribes, summarizes, and analyzes your conversations so you can get the most out of every meeting. 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You will. Thank you. I want to talk about the pause because I think the pause also, like you said, can happen at any point in women's lives. Oftentimes we think about the pause, right as like, you just had a baby and you want a little more time. But quite frankly, your kids could be gone and your, your mom could be sick or you could, you know, I mean, want a different career or you learn pottery, whatever it is, and you may just want some time. So what is steps one, two and three for someone that's tr that that's deciding to take a career pause?
- [24:24]
Neha Roosh
Yeah. I'm so glad you said that. One of the myths that holds women back is thinking that there's only one time that they're gonna. The reality is that it is a long game. Work, family, health. Right. And so we want to create more sustainable careers, lives, families. By doing that, we want to allow women to move in and out of the workforce, move, be able to have choices available to thrive without shame and penalty. Step one is knowing that you're going to have to make changes at different transitions. Right. Transitions can be having your first child, it can be having your second child. We see a number of women pausing actually when their kids are aging into their teens. Now, I would say like post 10 years old, because you're seeing natural. There's a big, especially around the third grade, fourth grade, there's a high rate of diagnoses happening. So when you're working through a diagnosis around a neurodivergence or a learning difficulty, mental health issues. And so I one of my favorite things about this tour has been meeting women who've come up and been like, I'm on my third pause. Like I wow. Which I, which to me is a success, right?
- [25:31]
Reshma Sajani
Yes.
- [25:31]
Neha Roosh
We've been able to recalibrate what matters most over and over and over again. Steps one, two and three, I think one we've talked about, which is the idea that your ambition and your feminism doesn't dry up. I think so often, even before you get to the financial bit, there's this shame. You've clocked 10, 15 years. You've accrued sometimes, you know, college education, further education, and there's a little We've been fed this narrative that in somehow it's wasting. I want you to put that on the shelf and recognize we're operating in a very different time, patching up the narratives. Ambition is really defined as the determination to do things. You're going to do things that you care about many different things. And it is normal and natural to shift those things.
- [26:15]
Reshma Sajani
So step one, nothing wrong with me and like this isn't the end of my career.
- [26:20]
Neha Roosh
And number two, and I would say you should probably be doing this hand in hand is even if this is a financial no brainer, if you're in a two parent household, you are having a conversation with your partner at least six months ahead of time, meaning that you are going into this if one partner, and by the way, one in five at home parents right now are dads. So I want to make sure that this isn't just a gendered conversation. Right? So two parents coming to the table saying we together budget, we have income in, income out, we shift that, we budget for that income to expenditures across things we care about. Right now we need to make a shift because we want less stress or we want someone at home to manage the like complicated care that's happening or relocation. We together are going to benefit as an interdependent household. And I underscore that because I think one of the things that haunts us as women who have also, like I did and like you did, assembled a lot of value and worth in how much we make.
- [27:19]
Reshma Sajani
Oh yeah.
- [27:20]
Neha Roosh
When we suddenly are faced with, wait a second, I'm going to be a financial dependent. What does that mean?
- [27:26]
Reshma Sajani
Because listen, you fight over money and there's moments, well, I paid for that, right? Like ye, I still have my own bank account, you know, just for my own like, you know, because I, and I've had it since I was like, I don't know, 19 years old. And I, I feel like that's like part of my identity of that financial freedom. So that, that's, that's like, that's definitely a big thing.
- [27:47]
Neha Roosh
And you know, I talked to a number of financial therapists about it. And so best practice technically on paper, if you're making a career shift like this is to combine finances, it does not always have to be that way. There are other. And I would sort of talk about it in that chapter.
- [28:00]
Reshma Sajani
You're saying once you decide to do the pause, then you're basically like, we're.
- [28:04]
Neha Roosh
Combining our finances because it is a joint household income. Yeah, right. Because that income and because the big mindset that you need as partners to enter in a career shift of this magnitude because it is. It's an immense career shift. Right. Immense income shift is that we are an interdependent household. You partner working out of the home depend equally on me doing the care work in the home being the security blanket. My husband was running a tech company at the time when I took my pause and it is when he sold that company his mom came to me. It was the nicest thing she's ever said and said he could only do this because you were at home.
- [28:40]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [28:40]
Neha Roosh
You did that work to let him single task outside of the. Outside of the home. And so you know, and that's where in having those conversations while you're going through the budgeting and by the way I talked to a number of couples. One who you know they had to move from the Bay Area to Virginia to accommodate this decision. Others just had to cut the like line item of travel. So obviously the scope of the changes the family is going to have to make to accommodate this is different. But the crucial piece is we've talked it out so that I know that my partner is on board with this mindset and if he is not, this is not the time for me to part with my income. Right. Or it might be the time to negotiate a part time role and or it might be the time to consider a post nuptial agreement and there is no shame in that. We enter contracts all the time with our businesses and there is no more complicated of a business than a household. And I think you know part of this and you and I both share Eve as a friend, Eve Rodsky and together to do some work around how to create a postnup in this case because it is. It's a way in which to what's exactly a postnup? So a postnuptial agreement would be if you didn't do a prenup where you protect your assets. A pro snup would be to say one of us is making a career shift. We are both in the case of the dissolution of this marriage my and both interests are going to be protected. And then interests would be outlined. Right. You would agree how the other partner would be supported.
- [30:08]
Reshma Sajani
It's like a prenup after you're married, basically.
- [30:11]
Neha Roosh
Correct.
- [30:12]
Reshma Sajani
Okay. And what's number three?
- [30:14]
Neha Roosh
And number three is. And I failed at this. And it's why I wanted to spend time in that chapter is network on your way out. Know that your career is you know I always say career pause is not a Life pause, your career. This is not a career ender. So as you're resigning, where you're shifting out of the, out of the current role, you're essentially making sure you're preserving the bridge back. Right. You're, you're doing it with as much diligence. So you've negotiating part time roles if that's an option. You're giving your manager as much of a heads up as possible. You're taking them to coffees on the way out. Even if it wasn't a perfect relationship, you're saying essentially creating a way in which you're nurturing those relationships. So when and if you need or want to come back, yeah, those are available. Hi, I'm Jessica St. Clair.
- [31:18]
Reshma Sajani
And I'm June Diane Rayfield. And we are two friends trying to survive the chaos and celebrate the joy that life throws our way.
- [31:26]
Neha Roosh
And we do it every week on.
- [31:27]
Reshma Sajani
Our podcast, the Deep Dive.
- [31:29]
Neha Roosh
Sometimes we dig into the deep stuff.
- [31:31]
Reshma Sajani
Like how I communicate with my dead best friend. And sometimes we give bad advice based off a TikTok I saw. And we're not going to apologize for that. Absolutely not. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll hire a psychic medium. Join us, won't you? Listen to the Deep Dive where wherever you get your podcast from Lemonada Media.
- [31:54]
Neha Roosh
Are you waxed?
- [31:56]
Reshma Sajani
No, I'm Unwaxed.
- [31:57]
Neha Roosh
Hi, guys, I'm Sophia.
- [31:59]
Reshma Sajani
And I'm Sistine Stallone. And this is Unwaxed. We are less judgmental than your best friend, way cheaper than a therapist, and less painful than a wax. Join us every Tuesday where we discuss dating, bettering yourself, and hilarious stories. So listen to Unwax from Lemonade Media wherever you get your podcasts or check us out on YouTube to see the video version. And we will see you next Tuesday.
- [32:20]
Neha Roosh
Bye.
- [32:32]
Reshma Sajani
Now I want to talk about the pause because so what do you do when you're in the pause? One of the things that you wrote about, which I loved, is like setting a goal. And like the goal wasn't, I'm gonna make sure my kids eat broccoli every day. Right. The goal was actually about you and creativity. So tell us about, like, how do you have a successful pause?
- [32:59]
Neha Roosh
Well, you know, if you set the goal that your child's gonna eat broccoli, it's like a surefire way to feel like. And it is. It's the common trap. And that was why I wanted to ground that section in goal setting for yourself. Because what happens, you take a type A professional or type B professional woman who has been on a path and the success metrics were handed to her. You know, achieve this much and you will get a salary bump, you'll get a promotion, and then suddenly you don't have that. And very quickly it becomes, okay, my. My house is going to be clean, my marriage is going to be thriving, my kids are going to be well behaved. And when something goes amiss, you think, well, what now? What? And so instead, I want women to step into this time, and I think this is important, to be able to come out the other side and feel like you grew knowing that a career pause, yes, might be to make room for family life, but it can also be to make room for yourself to grow in really interesting ways. And I think what happens when we say goals is people sort of roll their eyes and think, are you setting goals when you have a five year, you know, you have two kids under. Under the age of five. And this is where I think it's really important to say goals are a way in which to dignify your time. Right? Adam Grant said that. So those are his words, not mine. So you're thinking about, well, when I look back on this time, what will have made it successful? And it's usually that you are able to plant seeds toward your future state. And so one way to do this, if you do nothing else, if you don't read the book, is write in great detail where you would want to be in five years, right? Who do you want to be spending time with? How do you want to feel in your mind, your body, what you want to be spending your time on? And it's not to say you're suddenly going to teleport to that future version, but it starts to reveal to you, well, those are the things I care about professionally from a personal growth perspective, from a family perspective. So, you know, for me, the goals were big, right? I was going to heal my reactivity from a personal growth perspective, professionally, I was going to really finally take on content and editorial for women. That was something I'd always cared about and never gotten to do. By the way, what's so exciting is I'd been trying to squash that into my job title for so long, but once you've paused your paid work, you suddenly get to explore these things that weren't available to you before. And then on a family perspective, is not to say you want your kid to be eating broccoli, but it might be, I want to have a silly household like I want, right? And then the micro. Then you think, okay, this is how much time I have available to me in this stage of life. How can I break these into really measurable pieces that make me feel like I'm moving forward? Yeah. From a personal growth, from a reactivity. It was, I'm going to listen to a podcast about anger in women once a week or from a professional perspective. It was, I'm going to write three blog. I'm going to put myself out there. I'm going to write three blog posts a week.
- [36:04]
Reshma Sajani
Yep.
- [36:04]
Neha Roosh
Family. I'm going to have a dance party every single Monday. And then you can slowly dial that up based on how much time you have available. But it allows you to start getting intentional about the stage of life as being for yourself.
- [36:16]
Reshma Sajani
And what I love is like, you did make. You made them achievable, like one podcast a week. I want to ask you, I'm be honest. Like, so I did not have the moment you had with Bode where I looked at Sean and I was like, I just, I want to be home with you. What I did have was I want to be able to have a schedule that allows me to, like, do the things if I want to pick you up from school or if I want to take you to your music class or if I want to, you know what I mean? I want to be able to do that. And so for me, flexibility, like, has been able to achieve. Right. What I wanted. But I still, when I was reading your book, I was like, I want a pause. You know, I was like, meaning, like, I would. And maybe my version of a pause is like society's version of a sabbatical. Right. The ability to take time for yourself and your own personal growth. It doesn't necessarily have to be about children. Right. But it is about me. What, what is the difference between like, is a pause that. Or what is the difference between. Or is that a sabbatical? Like, meaning, like, what is the difference between like, a pause and a sabbatical and nothing.
- [37:30]
Neha Roosh
So it's so funny you should say that. One of my biggest gripes, and I have many, but one of them is that I'm noticing all these, like 50 year old men on LinkedIn talking about their career sabbaticals and everyone's like, slow clap, amazing standing. I'm like, women have been taking career sabbaticals forever. No one's clapping. And so, you know, one of the things I often encourage women to do is to further. And we, you know, when you talk about this in your sort of career portfolio is talk about it as a career sabbatical. I talk about it as calling it a career. I give it as an example of what to put on your resume. But career, sabbatical for family life, if you want to clarify. But I think this, you know, when I define the power pause, right. This. It was really to offer a definition that reframed the idea of stay at home mother or chapter of stay at home motherhood as you shift away from your paid work to make room for other priorities. And in doing so, you expand your interests, your network and your sense of self so you can return stronger than ever. That's it.
- [38:39]
Reshma Sajani
What you're saying is so powerful because I do think, when I close my eyes and I think about stay at home mothers, I think about someone who's doing it for. For child rearing, right. And not necessarily for herself. And I think redefining that is so important in giving women, you know, the permission that, yeah, maybe great, you get, you spend more, but it doesn't have to be the reason why you're taking the pause. And society should not only see that as the only valid reason, right. That we respect women for taking. Am I making sense?
- [39:15]
Neha Roosh
You are. I would add. I think what, what you're saying is when women, when we hear a woman is choosing to pause. Yeah, we think a couple things. We think, well, then she's giving up. Her ambition's drying up, right? We want to open wide in our view, so we might say, oh, she's pausing to make room for, you know, family. But also she's exploring. She's explaining what comes next. And let's leave it at that.
- [39:42]
Reshma Sajani
And let's not penalize her for it. Because I think what often happens of why there's a motherhood penalty is because they look at us and they're like, oh, she's going to leave anyway, right? Like, why give her that promotion? Why give her that increased salary? Let's hire Johnny, right? Because he's more reliable. And I think what you're saying is so powerful. I mean, look, I think right now in society, people are burnt the fuck out and we have this, like, sense that you have to go, go, go, go, go, go, go, right? And that you in. I know in life, like, I'm in this moment right now where I am deeply creative and it means that I go to a Broadway show or a play every other week or I watch a movie because I'm trying. I am like, my mind is just a sponge. And, and that's why I said to you, like, this would be a moment in my life where I would If I was ever going to take a career sabbatical, it would be it, because I feel it. Right. I feel like I need that space. And so I just feel like we have to have more kind of shifts in the way that we think about. And this is where I wanted to get to my question, which is like, it is often hard for women to re enter. Right. Like we have long. And I think the pandemic changed that. We penalized women that had gaps in their careers. We had algorithms that pushed resumes out when there were gaps. We've had programs, returnships. Right. That are solely focused because we know we of have this structural problem in the workforce that is hard for women to reenter. So that fear that women have is legitimate. Is this still the case? What has changed? What advice do you have to help shift that?
- [41:17]
Neha Roosh
Yeah. So 84% of millennials, male or female, will take a career break. And when we look at that number, we. The inverse of this is that hiring managers, 75% of hiring managers now feel accustomed to use seeing a career. You said gap. I mean, of course I want to. And here's the thing. I want to reframe a career gap as a set of non traditional experiences that you're adding to your career.
- [41:45]
Reshma Sajani
So you don't like the word gap.
- [41:46]
Neha Roosh
Yeah. But here's the thing. No hiring manager is saying that today, right. Like you cannot go to interview after five years out and have a hiring manager say, so tell me about all your non traditional experience for your portfolio. However, what I can do, and I'm a big believer in language, that is what this movement is about. It's about giving new language to women to walk through the world with more confidence and a way in which to advocate for their worth. So a lot of that last section of the book is about how do we now not only say, okay, we're going to get intentional about this time now, we're going to step into this actually as a way in which to build out that career portfolio because there is so much incredible networking happening on the sidelines. All right. You and I overlapped at school. Yeah. Realize that at preschool.
- [42:39]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, that's right.
- [42:41]
Neha Roosh
In the PTA meetings on the playgrounds and the play spaces. And there's this invisible thread in motherhood. Right. It starts with, oh, like, who's your pediatrician too? But it very quickly progresses to like, what were you working on?
- [42:53]
Reshma Sajani
What can I help you on?
- [42:54]
Neha Roosh
I heard you on.
- [42:55]
Reshma Sajani
Right.
- [42:56]
Neha Roosh
And I think this goes back to some of the false divides between stay at home and working Mother. I think as we embrace the fact that actually we're more alike than we are different and we're actually all ever shifting, then we get to a place where you might talk about what you're doing and someone might say, you know, I had marketing experience. I have like 10 hours a week. I'd love to. To participate. Right? And, you know, part of it is how can we lean on our network strategically, right? Mom Friends don't have to just be, like, gabbing with their coffees, you know, walking around. This can. This isn't like ladies who lunch. This is like an incredibly powerful network that we can tap into in really interesting ways and run the world. And then the second part of it is, this is your time to actually explore and experiment. I tell women, like, if you don't have any other time to go volunteer at the school and test and learn there, scroll your. You're scrolling Instagram anyways, see what content you're lingering on. When you're listening to podcasts, which ones do you keep gravitating back to? Because it starts to offer clues as to what you're interested in and then start to double click on that a little bit more. I'll give you the example. This woman down in North Carolina, she organized a bus route for her children. They were just not getting picked up, something any of us would do, except she did it and she was keeping sort of an iPhone notes. And I tell all women to do this now. She kept an iPhone notes open where she would just add bullets as to things that lit her up or a conversation that sparked her, an idea she had. And every, like, month or so, she would look back because the dots would sort of connect in that piece around bus route. Made her think, I really am into project management. And now I can take all that experience that I had in the workforce, which didn't disappear. Now I can think, okay, I want to really go in this direction of project management. I'm going to start volunteering a little bit more to build out my experience there. And she went back and she built out her resume to include the sub bullets for her career, sabbatical for family life to include, implemented highly technical infrastructure change to local organization, which is what she did. Right? Like, suddenly she has a story to own and dignify the time she spent in a direction that she wants to go in. And it's not to say that we can sort of diminish all the risks, but if we sort of a big part of this book was laying out a roadmap that not only allows you to feel intentional and a little bit more useful, but also start to strategically use the time.
- [45:35]
Reshma Sajani
To really. So tell me what you, you know, as we're closing here, like what's the policy changes that we have to make? Right? I mean obviously you know, the things that I'm passionate about and fighting for but like it just, it feels like part of what your book just kind of like again proved out is that we just need more off ramps and on ramp. We just need to think about things differently besides full time work or not.
- [46:01]
Neha Roosh
Working, that's the big one. You know, I think there's a couple, I think there's. I do believe and I don't think we're getting here anytime soon in the current state of things. But I think universal health care would have changed because both partners could flex and, and then we'd be able to allow more, wiggle more options within family households. Right. But like take those big ones. I think if we create a way in which organizations at the larger level have templates for two day, three day work weeks or days that map to the school day, we would enable an incredible. Because 87% of the women returning even after a two year pause or three year pause want flexibility because their children's needs don't evaporate. So we had a school day or work day that mapped the school day. I think that would put us ahead of the curve in the bookworm.
- [46:55]
Reshma Sajani
I could not agree more. And do you think that this is something that Mother Untitled will try to.
- [47:00]
Neha Roosh
Build a movement around what I want to see if I could do one thing right now, it's create a brain trust among women where we are able. I'll give you another example. I was down in Dallas and this woman was at an event and she said I negotiated a two day work week at hsbc. And I said how in the world did you do that? Because I've been going, I mean I've been doing this work for eight years and that's like the gold standard, right? I've seen progress on the law front. I've seen that was that sort of, you know, was unheard of. And she said, I called a friend who had a friend who had negotiated a two day work week at JP Morgan and I took her template and I put it in front of my manager. Because the thing is, it's not like HSBC are bad people. They just don't have the way the courses to think about how to make this work. And I've been doing that a little bit around the job shares too. And Viacom has figured that out a little bit. And so I think if we can power a way in which we have women across industries getting really honest about how they're making it work and all the different permutations, we give women more options.
- [48:12]
Reshma Sajani
That's right, us.
- [48:13]
Neha Roosh
And we bring it to each other.
- [48:14]
Reshma Sajani
It's so the amount of women that I've met have, that have shared their PowerPoint presentation on how they asked for paid leave, for example, like if we could create a library which is, you know, which just has all of this knowledge, all of these templates, all of these powerful presentations.
- [48:29]
Neha Roosh
Yeah.
- [48:30]
Reshma Sajani
I think it could make an enormous amount, an enormous amount of change to end on. What are you hopeful about?
- [48:38]
Neha Roosh
I'm hopeful that women are getting honest with each other. I think we are realizing that no one is coming to save us, as you always say, and that we are building this from the ground up and that we are reexamining it all. And that can feel messy, but when we realize that we're reexamining it all, we start talking more. And I'm actually also really interested in this sort of boom of this new sub economy that, that we're creating amongst each other. Right. As founder, as female founders, we then employ other women.
- [49:16]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, right.
- [49:17]
Neha Roosh
We employ fractional talent or part time talent or freelance talent. And we're creating this world amongst ourselves where I always say to women returning to the workforce, the best place to start is a small to medium business run by women.
- [49:29]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [49:30]
Neha Roosh
Because that's going to create a new, like a stepping stone to the next thing. But it allows you, it allows you a place that you will do work of meaning and you will do it on terms that work for you.
- [49:41]
Reshma Sajani
That's right. Well, congratulations. Thank you so much for this really important conversation for like the work you're doing. I think shifting structures is like, is is how we get to gender equality. So thank you so much.
- [49:53]
Neha Roosh
Thank you.
- [50:03]
Reshma Sajani
Thank you so much to Neha Roche for talking with me today. Her book is called the Power Pause. How to Plan a Career, Break After Kids and Come Back Stronger than ever. One last thing, thank you so much for listening to my so called Midlife. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like me and Dr. Sharon Matt alone talking about what drives healthcare disparities in the US that you won't hear anywhere else. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app that's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host Reshma Sajani. Our associate producer is Isara Asan and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Khurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oha Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye. Hey my so Called Midlife listeners. Our network Lemonada is working on a new call and advice show hosted by a remarkable family therapist. One of her main goals is to remind you that you are the expert on your child, even if it doesn't feel that way when you're faced with uncomfortable conversations, meltdowns and tough decisions. But as a parent, I know we sometimes face challenges that feel too awkward or just too overwhelming to handle on your own. So if you're a parent of a child between 6 and 21 and you're facing one of those things, why don't you send in a question? Our host might offer you real time advice on anything from mental health challenges to big family secrets, from dating to social media. Whatever it is, we want to help reach out at bit ly parentingpodcastquestions that's bit ly parentingpodcastquestions.