It's Not Too Late to Break Generational Cycles with Sahaj Kaur Kohli

Summary

Podcast Summary: "It's Not Too Late to Break Generational Cycles with Sahaj Kaur Kohli"

Podcast Information:

• Title: My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
• Host: Reshma Saujani
• Guest: Sahaj Kaur Kohli
• Release Date: January 22, 2025

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Introduction

In this poignant episode of My So-Called Midlife, host Reshma Saujani engages in a heartfelt conversation with Sahaj Kaur Kohli, a renowned therapist, Washington Post columnist, and founder of Brown Girl Therapy—the first and largest mental health community for children of immigrants. Sahaj is also the author of "But What Will People Say?", a book that delves into navigating mental health, identity, and cultural love.

Exploring Generational Trauma and Identity

Reshma begins by sharing her personal struggles with midlife satisfaction despite her outward successes. She attributes much of her inner conflict to her upbringing as the daughter of immigrant parents who had high expectations for her. This sets the stage for a deep dive into how generational trauma affects adult identity and relationships.

Notable Quote:

"I had to live the perfect life that they couldn't, and being honest about that has created a lot of anger and tension with my family."
— Reshma Saujani [02:30]

The Impact of Bicultural Straddling

Sahaj introduces the concept of "bicultural straddling," describing how children of immigrants navigate the tension between their parents' cultural expectations and the dominant culture they grow up in. This balancing act often leads to increased psychological distress compared to their parents' experiences as refugees.

Notable Quote:

"Bicultural straddling is what leads to more stress because you are being socialized at a time in your life when you're trying to find a sense of belonging."
— Sahaj Kaur Kohli [06:00]

Intergenerational Trauma and Its Manifestations

The conversation delves into how intergenerational trauma is passed down, not just biologically but also through learned behaviors and emotional neglect. Sahaj explains that while parents may have focused on survival and stability, their children often grapple with emotional security and belonging.

Notable Quote:

"Our trauma is being passed down as something we learn to internalize, shaping how we show up in relationships."
— Soojin Pak [10:37]

Emotional Neglect and Parentification

Sahaj and Soojin discuss the subtle forms of emotional neglect experienced by children of immigrants, such as parentification—where children take on adult roles or emotional caregiving due to parental absence or unavailability. This phenomenon often leads to difficulties in establishing personal boundaries and self-worth.

Notable Quote:

"Parentification is common in collectivist families and immigrant households, where children become translators or emotional caregivers."
— Soojin Pak [25:14]

Healing and Breaking the Cycle

Sahaj offers actionable insights on building a stronger sense of self and redefining relationships with parents. She emphasizes the importance of self-compassion, setting behavioral boundaries, and fostering open communication to break free from harmful generational cycles.

Notable Quote:

"It's not about being perfect. It's about being present and tending to our loved ones' needs while honoring our own experiences."
— Soojin Pak [18:55]

Navigating Complex Family Dynamics

The episode highlights the challenges of addressing family dysfunction without casting culture as a scapegoat. Sahaj explains how attributing negative behaviors to cultural norms can prevent individuals from taking accountability and addressing the underlying issues.

Notable Quote:

"Culture often becomes a scapegoat, which stops accountability and hinders efforts to create healthier family dynamics."
— Sahaj Kaur Kohli [15:21]

Personal Journeys and Relationships

Soojin Pak shares her personal journey of healing and improving her relationship with her father through intentional trips and open conversations. She underscores the importance of persistence and vulnerability in bridging generational gaps.

Notable Quote:

"Healing has ripple effects. By pursuing my own healing, I can leave breadcrumbs for my loved ones and improve our relationships."
— Soojin Pak [34:28]

Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode concludes with affirmations on the possibility of unlearning ingrained behaviors and fostering healthier relationships. Reshma and Sahaj reiterate the significance of self-awareness, empathy, and courage in overcoming generational trauma.

Final Thoughts:

"Our whole lives are about having courage, especially as children of immigrants. We have to carry the momentum of our parents' sacrifices while forging our own paths to healing and connection."
— Soojin Pak [38:58]

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Key Insights:

• Bicultural Straddling: The act of balancing dual cultural identities can lead to increased stress and psychological distress.
• Intergenerational Trauma: Trauma is passed down not just biologically but also through learned behaviors and emotional patterns.
• Emotional Neglect and Parentification: Subtle forms of neglect, such as children taking on adult roles, can hinder emotional development and self-worth.
• Healing Through Self-Compassion: Building a strong sense of self and redefining relationships requires self-compassion and intentional boundaries.
• Breaking the Cycle: Open communication and persistent efforts are essential in overcoming generational trauma and fostering healthier family dynamics.

Final Thoughts:

This episode serves as a profound exploration of the complexities faced by children of immigrants, particularly in navigating identity, belonging, and familial expectations. Reshma Saujani and Sahaj Kaur Kohli provide valuable insights and practical tools for listeners aiming to break free from generational cycles and cultivate fulfilling relationships.

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For more episodes and insightful conversations, subscribe to My So-Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Sam Bee]

Hey, Choice Words listeners. Sam Bee here. Guess what? We are back with a brand new season of Choice Words from Lemonada Media. Each week I'll chat with amazing guests like Kerry Washington, Laura Dern and Nick Offerman to dive into the biggest choices they've ever made. We are talking career shaping, history changing, life defining decisions. As someone who has made my own fair share of questionable choices. Hello Bangs. I am pumped to share these funny, poignant, all too relatable stories with you. Season 2 of Choice Words is out now. Tune in wherever you get your podcasts. You won't wanna miss it.

[Cool OPV Lysak]

Hi, I'm Cool OPV Lysak.

[Soojin Pak]

And I'm Soojin Pak.

[Cool OPV Lysak]

And we're your aunties on Add to Cart, a podcast all about the things we buy, the things we buy into, and what that says about who we are. We're real life friends who love to.

[Soojin Pak]

Talk about what we're adding to Cart.

[Cool OPV Lysak]

Sometimes that means trying the snail serum to slather on our faces or a sweater that screams one third ugly. That's right, Sue. Each week we dive into honest, oftentimes TMI conversations about what's taking up space in our shopping carts and in our minds, be it products, trends or something for our auntie book club. We also bring guests on the show and take a peek into their carts because the things a person buys or doesn't says a lot about them.

[Soojin Pak]

We like to think of ourselves as aunties to all fun, slightly unhinged and.

[Cool OPV Lysak]

Always ready to share some sage advice.

[Soojin Pak]

And a good product wreck.

[Cool OPV Lysak]

Add to Cart is out now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Reshma Saujani]

Lemonade welcome to my so Called Midlife a podcast where we figure out how.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

To stop just getting through it and start actually living it.

[Reshma Saujani]

Reshety I'm Reshma Saujani. So much of my personal experience comes from growing up as the daughter of immigrants. And episode after episode in this show I talk to these amazing guests who just feel a sense of freedom that just happens in midlife. But if I'm honest, I'm still struggling to find that freedom, that sense that I could live my life for me. And I think so much of why I'm struggling is because of my experience growing up with immigrant parents who had so many expectations for me. Like I had to live out and achieve things that they couldn't because they came to this country as refugees and they didn't know the language and they didn't have enough money or resources or support. And so that meant that I had to live the perfect life that they couldn't and if I was honest about that, it's created a lot of anger and tension with my family. So today's guest really helped me unpack this adult identity that is still resentful and angry and confused. Sahaj Khar Kohli is a therapist, a Washington Post columnist, and founder of Brown Girl Therapy, the first and largest mental health community for children of immigrants. She's also the author of but what Will People Say? It's about navigating mental health identity and the love between cultures. In this episode, Sahaj gave me tools on how to build that stronger sense of self and how to create an entirely new relationship with my parents while still validating my own experiences. It was an incredibly healing conversation. And no matter who your parents are, whether they were immigrants or not, I know that you're gonna find this conversation helpful. So let's get into it.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Well, thank you, Sahaj. We're so excited to talk to you. I feel like I dug into your book and I have so many thoughts, questions. In fact, I had a bunch of friends over for dinner on Saturday and I was like, got the book out and I was like, oh, and listen to this. And then we're like, yes, that's totally true. I don't remember anything from my childhood.

[Soojin Pak]

I love that.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

I'm really excited. So, Sahaj, this shows at midlife. You're not in midlife, but I have to ask, have you experienced a quarter life crisis?

[Soojin Pak]

I don't know what to call what I'm going through because I don't think I'm in midlife. But I'm definitely way beyond the age of quarter life.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

How. Wait, how old are you?

[Soojin Pak]

35.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Sorry, girl, you're in midlife.

[Reshma Saujani]

Welcome.

[Soojin Pak]

No, I'm sticking to 40, 40s midlife. I still have five years. I'm on my way to entering midlife, and I feel like I'm in a little bit of a transitional phase in my life. Anyways. I'm currently family plan planning with my partner.

[Reshma Saujani]

And that's exciting.

[Soojin Pak]

Trying to figure out what that means as a South Asian woman. So lots, lots there that's being unpacked. And I don't know, I feel more confident in my career and just my choices and my lifestyle has changed a lot, which I think happens naturally as we get older. So there's lots of things that I feel like I'm experiencing, but I don't know the word for it.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Yeah, but you're excited. Like you feel.

[Soojin Pak]

Yeah.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Or like you have an excited vibe than a. I'm scared. Oh, vibe?

[Soojin Pak]

No, I'm super excited. Honestly. Turning 30 was the first step for me of being like, okay, the hard years are over. I can just, like, figure out who I am and what I want and focus on that. And it's only been that for the last almost six years for me. And it's. It's only getting better. And I have lots of friends in their 40s. My sister is one of my best friends. She's in her 40s. And it's just really exciting to see women, especially, just kind of owning their midlife and how different it feels from what I was modeled and taught by my mom. So, yeah, I feel super excited.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

I don't even feel like my mother brought it up. Right. Like, I don't remember her being like, oh, I'm aging. Or I. You know, it's. It's interesting. I think she's. My mother's still telling me how fabulous she is, but that's my mom.

[Soojin Pak]

Yes, my mom loves that, too.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Yeah, we'll get to that, too. So my parents came to this country in 1973, in the 1970s, and they were refugees. They were forced out of Uganda, basically. IDI Amin came to power, and he kicked all the Indians out. And so much of your book, but what Will people say really resonated with me. I mean, I'm just, like, underlining, underlining, underlining. And I want to start off by reading a stat that just blew me away. In your book, you said that children of immigrants are two times more likely to experience psychological distress. Like, my parents were fucking refugees, and I have more psychological stress compared to them. So what kind of distress are we talking about?

[Soojin Pak]

Yeah, so I think that stat comes from the experience of being in the Western world, in the new country, in the host country. So I wouldn't necessarily say that you experience more stress than what your parents have as refugees, but I think in the US You've probably experienced more stress, and that's because of bicultural straddling. Because you are being socialized at a time in your life, adolescence, you know, when you're trying to find a sense of belonging, when your ego is being formed, when you're trying to be accepted, you're making all these decisions, and you are constantly feeling this tension between the norms and expectations and values of the household you're raised in versus the external, socialized culture that is teaching you and telling you to be someone totally different. And so I think that bicultural straddling is what leads to more stress. But our parents can go through that, too. It just looks really different. Right. It's not as. It's not as debilitating, I think, as it is on their children who are growing up in the new country. Because there's lots of research that says that's where academic problems can come from. That's where substance use can come from. That's where depression can come from. Anxiety is this idea that we are navigating these different tensions in our identity that's so powerful.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

As you're talking, I'm thinking my father changed his name from Mukun to Mike. He still signs my birthday cards. Love Mike. He went to Toastmasters every week to get rid of his accent. But I felt like in many ways, right. Their generation was about assimilation. Like, this was the tax that you had to pay to be in this country. But for us, it was different. It was more complicated. Like, I remember being mad that my mom named me Reshma instead of Rachel and that nobody could pronounce my name. And I don't even think, honestly, it was until, like, five years ago or six years ago that I stopped using Rachel at Starbucks instead of my name because I always felt like I was putting somebody out.

[Soojin Pak]

Right.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

By having to pronounce my name. I still remember we were talking about this at the dinner. I had mentioned that, you know, just the pain of never having a boy look at me or be attracted to me in high school, going to the dance, like, all. All of that. So it was. It is really our pain or our trauma was different than theirs.

[Soojin Pak]

Yeah. And it looks. It feels different. Right. Because our parents are so concerned with what I call the three S's, the safety, security, stability. For them, it's about keeping their head down, surviving. They grew up in a different generation in the US where even being othered looked different for them, there was much more threat to their safety than maybe say, there is for us, where it's more about emotional belonging, social acceptance, and wanting to feel. You know, we're not worried as much about safety as we are about kind of this belongingness that we crave.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

But what's worse, our parents were stressed about their safety. We're stressed about our emotional security. Which stress is worse?

[Soojin Pak]

I don't know. It just looks different. Right. We are, honestly, even though we are focused as the children on our emotional security, we still have that intergenerational trauma in us. We're still dealing with the repercussions of what our elders have been through. And I think we're the first generation to kind of decide to interrogate It. And I think that leads to even more tension and more mental health struggles and more conflict internally and more feelings of shame and disillusionment about what it means to feel a sense of belonging.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Is that because like intergenerational trauma is somehow biologically passed on. Thinking about my mother, right, being pregnant with my sister, coming here as a refugee, not having anything, you know, literally being expelled and then. Right, like how that translated to us physically.

[Soojin Pak]

Yeah. I mean, there is research that suggests that our DNA is actually encoded with some of that trauma. So it shows up on a molecular, biological level. But what's happening is it's more of the like stressors, the, the reactions, the ways that you show up as a person that's being passed down. So for example, if your mom is in survival mode and she's got her head down and she's focusing on just like building a life for your family, you might then internalize that as, oh, I need to be perfect, I need to not rock the boat. I need to not make her any more stressed because she's dealing with this. But you've internalized that trauma. That trauma is being passed down to you as something that you learn how to show up in that relationship. And then you become an adult who's a people pleaser, who thinks that your worthiness is tied to how well you can be useful to other people. And so the trauma is not necessarily, it's not replicated in the same way. The patterns might look different, but you are learning to internalize their experience as your own. And then because of the way they treat, treat you, you're showing up differently because of it.

[Reshma Saujani]

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[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

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[Soojin Pak]

Yeah. So many times in my work as a therapist and even with the Brown girl therapy community and just talking to immigrants and children of immigrants, the number one thing when we talk about functioning in our family, how our family functions Oftentimes we will unpack and start to uncover that there is a level of dysfunction, that maybe it's patriarchal beliefs. It's a hierarchical, you know, established norms that make us feel like we're small as women, or we're not allowed to speak up, or depending on your birth order, age, gender. There's ways that communication are normalized or not normalized in our family. Discipline. Right. If there was corporal punishment in our household, and that was just a normal part of our upbringing. And so many times these conversations then go to. Well, it's cultural. Everyone in our culture is dealing with this. Everyone in our culture did this. Our parents. Parents did this. And when I've tried to talk to my family about it, my mom will often throw American at me like it's a bad word. You're just so American, you just don't understand the cultural differences. This is just how it's always been done. You turned out fine, I turned out fine. Everything's fine. And so it's almost like culture becomes the scapegoat of just for people not to take accountability of how their behavior is actually harming other people. And that's actually really harmful for so many of us, because then that makes those of us who want to break generational cycles, who want to try to have healthier dynamics, who want to learn how to do things differently, feel like we're doing something wrong. And then it makes other people feel bad. Our parents, for instance, because then they. They feel like we're blaming them. They feel like we are making them look bad, we're talking poorly about them. And it's just a cycle because some people are stuck in the way things have always been done, which is, quote, unquote, cultural. And some people want to change that. And that can lead to these kind of disruptive and dysfunctional and unhealthy dynamics that are so common in so many families.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Yeah. I think one of the things that's really disruptive or unhealthy is how do we validate our own experiences. Like, I think especially as I became a mom, I had more empathy for my parents, especially my mother's challenges, because I understood when, you know, when she was mom, they had far less. Far less support, far less resources, so much. And they had, you know, my mother was arranged marriage. They come to this country. Right. They don't know anybody. They don't have any family. And in many ways, I realized that then I then begin to question my own feelings about whether they're actually valid or not.

[Soojin Pak]

Yeah.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

And I. No Longer really have trust about my own emotions.

[Soojin Pak]

Oh, it's so common. It's so common. And it's really interesting that you're talking about empathy because a lot of my work is around and even my book is around. How do we have empathy and compassion for what our elders went through? How do we, how do we hold the truth that maybe they did their best with the truth that they still caused harm in some way? How do we honor what they've been through?

[Reshma Saujani]

How do we do that?

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

How do we do that?

[Soojin Pak]

I don't know. I think it's really reminding ourselves that multiple things can be true at the same time. A lot of my work with clients is about navigating that guilt that comes from feeling like, oh, I should have more compassion. I should rationalize my parents experiences because they did their best. But at what cost and to what end is always my question. How do we love other people while loving ourself? And if you haven't been taught to love yourself, how do you make room for that? So it doesn't replace the relationships that are important to you, but it, it just adds to like the diversity of, of, of your experience of recognizing that more than one person's reality is true.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Yeah.

[Soojin Pak]

Does that make sense?

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of the things that really resonated in your book too is this idea of emotional neglect, right. Because our parents, I, I mean, I think about again, my, My par. Their arranged marriage. They have these kids and they just don't have the space to actually, I mean, I, when I see my kids, I take them over, I kiss, I hug them, I know exactly what they're. The, the names of their, you know, friends are like what they did yet. I mean my parents, none of this, right. And I think older as the implications that it's had on me, you know, and my ability to be emotional or emotive. I then rationalize the fact that they didn't, weren't able to give that to me because how could they, Right? And I think this whole point of being able to say that's really sad as a child that I didn't receive that kind of emotional affection and love and at the same time to be like. But I, and I understand why they weren't able to give that.

[Soojin Pak]

Yeah, definitely. And it is, it is about kind of tending to your inner child. What is it that your inner child didn't get right? How can you give that to yourself? How do you find that in other relationships? And as a parent, how do you give that to Your kids. When I worked with immigrant families, the number one thing that would come up in my work with those families was parents being faced with the fact that they had to do a lot of healing work from their own childhood stuff in order to give their kids what they might need in these moments. If you weren't taught that you could express your emotions, if your emotions weren't tended to, it's going to be that much harder for you as a parent to do that if you're not constantly trying to heal that part of you for your kids and for yourself, right? Absolutely. We don't know how to do things we've never been taught to do. So first of all, have self compassion. You're learning something that's totally new, probably for the first generation in your entire family how to do these things. And second, remember that empathy is a tool for us to be able to have compassion for our loved ones. But also we want to. Like, the caveat here is that too much empathy is also not a good thing. When we are rationalizing other people's choices, when we are having empathy to the point where it's like, well, they can do anything and I will always forgive them and I will always understand it, we are then foregoing our own sense of self and our own needs and our own voices and our own experiences. And I think that's something that I had to confront in my book. I mean, the whole first chapter was, I don't remember anything. And if my parents say it happened this way, if my siblings say it happened this way, I should just defer to them. I've been taught to always defer to someone else. And the first chapter of my book actually became integrated into the book, like three drafts in. Because finally I got to a point where I was like, hey, editors, I think I need to talk about this. I think that I'm not the only person who is struggling to give space to my own voice. And I want people to know that this is a very common experience, but also it's a practice. How often are you spending time with yourself? Like, just asking yourself, hey, Sahaj, what do you need right now? Hey, Sahaj, what are you feeling right now? Hey, Sahaj, I care about you. Like, instead of just doing and constantly being for everyone else, never. The answer for a lot of people is never. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not doing it.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

You touched on something that. This thing blew me away. You did an informal poll in your book and you found out of the 1500 people that you surveyed 65% of them said they struggle to remember significant.

[Reshma Saujani]

Parts of their childhood.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Can you explain why I relate to this? There is so much of my childhood that I've blocked out. Some of that is parents. Some of that is growing up as the only brown kid in a white neighborhood where I was harassed and bullied and made to be ashamed of the color of my skin and my religion. And that is like. So I don't, you know, I really don't remember huge parts of my, my trauma. And I didn't realize that until I read your book.

[Soojin Pak]

Totally. I mean, so there are different types of traumas that we experience, right? We experience big T traumas. The really big socially understood, like very acknowledged trump traumatic experiences. And then we have small T traumas which are things like microinvalidations to some extent. Emotional neglect can be both of those things. But when we have all of our needs met except our emotional ones, it's hard to feel like you're allowed to complain about that. Right? So that's like an example of a small trauma where we might also be our self, our sense of self is being chipped away. But we don't really acknowledge it because it doesn't feel that bad, doesn't feel as bad as what other people are going through or as bad as something else that you could be experiencing. And we know that trauma changes the way that our memories are encoded, if they're encoded at all. Because our brains are in survival mode, because they are in fight or flight, they are taking, they are actively just trying to survive, regulate themselves. And that is something that is going to impact the ways that these memories are then processed and stored in our brains. Also, something in immigrant families that's more common for children and immigrant families than it is in non immigrant families is parentification. So parentification is common and can be in any family. But research suggests that it's more common in collectivist families and immigrant households. And this is the idea that a child is taking on an adult like role or a task that is beyond their developmental age. And so this happens in immigrant families because children maybe speak English and their parents don't. So they start to become translators, they start to be the ones doing the bills, they go to the medical appointments. But other times it's emotional parentification where because maybe extended family is left behind because we know immigration can lead to marital conflict. The children might take on a spousal role for a parent. So you might start to become a confidant, you might start to be an emotional caregiver. To your parent at a young age. These are things that take away from your ability to be a kid and to have like a very traditional, like stereotypical childhood because you are so concerned about these roles that have been given to you that are beyond your developmental age. That's why so many children of immigrants have been called mature for their age, an old soul wise. Because these are skills that we've learned to survive in a household where maybe we needed to help our family survive. And there's a lot of instrumental parentification where we need to do things in order to help our families survive in a new country. But then there's the emotional one where all of a sudden we feel like we are of use when we are there for other people. And that can have long lasting effects.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Yeah.

[Soojin Pak]

Also there's some research that says that parentification is a form of emotional neglect. So that goes right back to the fact that our needs are being neglected. And it's not a conscious thing. Right. Our parents don't mean to parentify us, they don't mean to put us in these positions. But if they don't know better, then we don't know better. And if we aren't having our needs, you know, tended to or made space for, then we don't know how to do that. So then it goes right back to where we started in this conversation where you become an adult who's like, how do I actually take care of myself while honoring what my parents have been through?

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Right, right. No, it's so, it's so interesting.

[Reshma Saujani]

So question for you.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Can is it possible to unlearn what we're taught growing up so we can show up differently for our kids? Like, is it possible? Like, I'll give you an example. I never saw any affection. You know what I mean? No hugs, no kisses of my parents growing up. And so now I'm not a hugger. I do this like weird like side hug thing. I just saw my son do it and I'm like, ah, yeah, yeah. What do I do now?

[Soojin Pak]

Well, first of all, if you're, if you're, if it worries you, you can talk to your son about it. You can say, oh, I realize that I don't like hugging because X, Y and Z, or I wasn't really hugged that much growing up or whatever the belief is for you around hugging and you can open a conversation with him. Is that how you feel? I notice you do this. How come? What do you think? Why do you think you do that? Just open up a conversation that everything you're Saying is literally what it means to be a generational cycle breaker. It's not about being perfect. It's not about having all the answers. It's about being present. It's about tending to our loved ones needs, our kids needs, and being curious about their experiences. Those simple acts of curiosity are the very difference between how you might have been raised versus how you want to do things differently. And I think that you absolutely can unlearn some of these things, but it's not easy and you are not a project that constantly needs to be worked on. So again, I can't stress this and repeat this enough. It's not about being perfect. You will never be a perfect parent. But how can you be present in the moment with your kids and have a level of self awareness and reflection to understand how your own behaviors, your own fears, your own learned skills are impacting your relationship and or your kids in some way?

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

What do you think is the number one thing that children of immigrants have to unlearn that you've seen what it.

[Soojin Pak]

Means to be a good child? I think that that's the biggest thing that we are always interrogating is that the definitions for good are very different. Based on culture, based on generation, based on parent beliefs, based on family dynamics, all of these things, right? Because for instance, gender plays a really big role, especially in South Asian families and collectivist families. What does it mean to be a good son versus a good daughter? And I think a lot of times we are constantly interrogating our goodness. And a lot of that comes from if we make a mistake, we take it as a moral failure. If we disappoint someone else, we take it as a moral failure. We are constantly tying the way that we make other people feel or our lack of perfection to how good we are. And I think that that's something I'm constantly seeing people having to question and unlearn. Like what does it actually mean to be a good person, a good child.

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[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

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[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Market.Com midlife thrivemarket.com midlife I want to talk your background a bit like so you were the first in your family to be born in the west, go to therapy, marry outside your culture. Tell me about how all of that affected your relationship with your parents.

[Soojin Pak]

Oh, how much time do we have? So my my relationship with my parents was always really fraught, especially with my dad. I just Learned to fear him. Growing up, I always often felt like I was too sensitive. My mom would tell me I was a really good actress because I would cry a lot. I was, you know, too outspoken. I was kind of a rebel in a lot of ways. I was too American. I was too all of these things. And I don't have. I didn't have the language I have now, which is A, I was bicultural straddling, and B, that I just. My whole identity, cultural identity, was built on this idea that I had to perform and take on certain behaviors in order to feel accepted at home and also in the American society I grew up in, because I also grew up in a predominantly white area. And so I just. Most of my life was just about me figuring out who I needed to be to get a sense of acceptance and validation. Then I enter my 20s and I go through something really traumatic. And I was living at home at that time. And my parents really didn't understand why I possibly needed professional help. I think for them, again, I didn't have this language then, but for them, they felt like they failed me in some way. Why are you struggling? We've done everything for you. You have everything you need. Why is it that you might need to air your dirty laundry? Talk to someone outside of the family. We can help you turn to God, right? Let's just pray more like pray. You know, if you just put your head down, you're going to be fine. And I actually needed professional care because I had went through a traumatic event. I was dealing with really severe depression and I just didn't get the support I needed. And so being someone in my family for the first time who was saying, hey, I need to talk about mental health, hey, I'm going through something that's like, we can't fix just ourselves. I need outside help really impacted my relationship with my parents because I was continuously bringing in these new western things into our family that they just didn't understand. And it took me actually physically and emotionally leaving my parents house, moving to New York from Virginia, like getting some time alone and away from them, to become financially independent, to kind of live on my own and then get that support myself for me to come back into the relationship with my parents and integrate the things I was learning in therapy. And that's often what I have to tell people is like, doing this work can be really hard when no one else in your family wants to do this work. But if you do this work and you like pursue healing, confront some of those intergenerational Stories and trauma and do this work, find that community. You can actually leave breadcrumbs for your loved ones, and you can, like, bring that work back into your relationship to better the relationship. Because I. I totally believe that healing has ripple effects.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Yeah.

[Soojin Pak]

I.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

So tell me how, like, the first walk with your dad happened, because I was, like, blown away by that. Like, it's. I was, like, super impressed.

[Reshma Saujani]

Like, it's like the trip I took with him.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Yeah. I mean, you know how it is, right? We don't have a lot of intimacy with our parents. And, like, even. And I'll confess, like, I. My. You know, my father had a heart attack at 56, and I always wanted. I felt like there were so many things I never asked him, so many questions I had that I was just too embarrassed, shy. I don't know what it is, you know what I mean, to ask. And I actually hired somebody to come interview my dad, and so I would have all of that information, and I. And he did it, and he probably told him all his business and all his secrets. Right. And I still haven't had the courage.

[Reshma Saujani]

To listen to him.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

My dad's still alive, but, like. But my point is, is, like. Like, I would rather go through all of that than to be like, dad, who I. My father and I are very close, than to be like, let's go on a walk. I want to ask you a couple of things.

[Soojin Pak]

Yeah. So, you know, when I took that first father daughter trip, how my. My book opens with that trip from 2015, it was interesting how it came about, because it wasn't necessarily at that point in my life. I had already stopped healing for a few years. I'd already kind of like. Like, been on the other side of that traumatic incident, and I was living away from my family, and I remember my mom telling me, oh, your dad doesn't seem like himself. And again, I'm the one in my family that kind of gets given the emotional, you know, baggage. And then I have to. I have to decide what to do with it. And so I was like, oh, you know, I wonder what it would be like to take a trip with him, just the two of us. And immediately I was terrified. I've never spent more than a dinner alone with my dad ever. Right. Yeah. And immigrant. Immigrant dads are notorious for being, like, like, more stoic, less open. Right. All of these things that we kind of know. And I was just like, you know what? Let's just do it. And my dad was so excited. He was, like, bragging about it with his friends. I'm going to Maine with my daughter, and we're gonna go on a father daughter trip. And I think in some way, he never really. My parents have never had that relationship with their parents. They've always lived far away, physically and emotionally and technologically, because technology wasn't a thing when they moved to the U.S. like, they've never had access to their parents in that same way. And our trip was. It was scary. I mean, it was. There was. I'll be honest, like, there were lots of awkward silences. There were times where I was like, why am I here? Why are we doing this? Like, are we ever gonna feel closer? There was one point where I forced him. I have a voice recording on my phone where I forced him to say five things he loved about me. And he was, like, stuttering, trying to figure out what to say. But I took it as a. I took it as a sign for me to just start to. Starting to get to know him. And instead of diving into, like, some of those really deep, deep, hard conversations, I asked the easy ones. What was your life like when you were a kid? What was India like when you were growing up? You know, what was your. What. What did you and mom like to do before us kids were born, like, things that just felt really low stakes. But I could learn a lot about him and over a beer. And when there's no one else there and you've had enough downtime, my dad will open up. Like, that's the only time he'll open up. If I called him right now, we are very close today, he still won't open up. I. I need to get in front of him, sit him down, get some, like, downtime with him, and he'll start to talk to me. And I've done three trips now with my dad, and I have a fourth one next this weekend, actually.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Yeah, that's like, goals. I feel like people listening to this are like. Cause, you know, the scariest thing I think Sahaj is like, when they do pass, to feel like you had so much you wanted to ask and you didn't have the courage, I know, to do it.

[Soojin Pak]

Our whole lives are about having courage, especially as children of immigrants. We have to have the courage to carry on the momentum of our parents moving to a new country and us having. Having access to more resources and opportunities. We have the courage of. Of accessing some of those resources and opportunities and, and help in order to interrogate some of our, like, collective family trauma and, you know, unhealthy dynamics. And then we have to have the courage to bring that back into our family and try to better our relationships. It doesn't always go the way we want them to go. It took me years to get to a point where my dad has the relationship. My dad and I have the relationship we have today. But. But I think for me and myself and my own, like, rule of thumb was to just keep trying. I want to try in different ways. I want to try to have same conversations in different approaches. I want to. I want to maintain connection with them. And the same as you. Right. Anticipatory grief is such a common experience we don't talk about.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

So what was your reason for why you wanted to keep trying?

[Soojin Pak]

I think it was twofold, if I'm being completely honest here. I think in the beginning it was, I want my dad to love me and know me. Like, does he still, like, am I still getting that validation from my parent that he, like, cares, even though I am making all these choices that are, like, so against what he thought I would do? So I think there was, like, a need for that validation initially. And then I think as we continue to make this time for each other, and I realized that he was, unlike a lot of parents, really receptive. I mean, if I asked him now to go to therapy, he would probably say yes. And so I think now it's. This relationship is really important to me, and I want to learn him. I think one of the biggest things as children of immigrants and children of refugees and grandchildren of immigrants and refugees, is that so much of our history is taken from us. And these stories, these intergenerational narratives is what they're called. These times where we can get to know our family, our family members, our family secrets, stories, life lessons, like how people learned crafts and skills and how those were passed down. Those are like the precious heirlooms that we get to hold onto and we get to pass on to our kids. But so many of us are scared to have those conversations because A, they don't know if their parents will be receptive, and B, they don't know how. And I know it can be really scary, but for me, it just means a lot that I. I record these conversations with my dad. And for me to have these if and when I decide to have kids, or even for my nephews and niece, it's just so special to be able to pass that on.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

I think it's also because we have become these functioning people with these tools and tactics, you know, of, like, we got these relationships, our parents, but we don't know too much. We don't ask too much. And so to invite almost all of this information and data, it's risky, right? It's risky to, like, the fortress that you've built around yourself.

[Soojin Pak]

Yeah. It can be so destabilizing, especially when you learn things that maybe you weren't prepared for or stories that you held about people actually turn out not to be true. Right. Like, I always thought my dad was like, oh, let's move. Like, they were living in London with my two older siblings, and they had the opportunity to. His, like, contract was up or something, and he was going to move back to India or move to America. And I always just assumed my whole life life. My dad moved to America to give me a better life. He, like, my mom was pregnant. He wanted to give his kids a better life. And then I learned from interviewing him in my book that actually he didn't want to go back to India and disappoint his dad. He didn't want to, like, have to go back instead. So he kept running away to the West. And I was like, oh, my God, that's what I did when I left home and moved to New York. And we have, like, this pattern has lived in our family, and we didn't even connect over it. And so even that, it can be destabilizing, but it can also be just amazing to be like. Like, you're a person who was just trying to figure things out in the same way. I'm just trying to figure things out. The things we're figuring out are different, but we're both doing it.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Clearly, there is a different experience that children of immigrants have. And so much of that has to do with this kind of generational trauma. And then I think so much of it has to do with the fact that we don't really have this open communication where we can actually share how we're feeling. And so the trauma just kind of of, you know what I mean, Piles on top. So is your advice going through this to just actually have the intervention or to let things go?

[Soojin Pak]

I love that question. And the therapist version of me is like, that answer is so individualized. I think that every person should interrogate what they're willing to tolerate. And I think that tolerance looks different for people. For example, I am much more tolerable of. Of my mom's antics and kind of guilt than, say, my brother is for different reasons. And I think we should learn behavioral boundaries. Sometimes it's not even about what you say, but it's about what you do. You know, maybe pick up the phone less. Maybe have a routine for calling once a week rather than every day. Have, have kind of behavioral boundaries around how often you go home, how long you stay, how you take care of yourself when you're at home, what you're willing to tolerate when you're home, what you engage in when you're at home.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Home.

[Soojin Pak]

Those are behavioral boundaries for you to set in place that can also help you protect yourself in some way.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Boundaries, the word that doesn't exist in the immigrant vocabulary.

[Soojin Pak]

I know we'll need another podcast just.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

On boundaries and just on boundaries. Well, thank you so much. This was such an incredible conversation and I think enormously helpful for our listeners. So thank you so much for your time.

[Soojin Pak]

Thank you so much for having me. This was great.

[Reshma Saujani]

Sahaj Karkoli is a therapist, columnist and author of the book but what Will People say? She's the founder of Brown Girl Therapy, the largest mental health and wellness resource for children of immigrants. I am so grateful for everything Sahaj shared during our conversation. Thanks so much for listening to my so Called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content from episodes like the one where Sahaj and I talk about how siblings of immigrant parents have.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

These completely different relationships with their parents.

[Reshma Saujani]

It was super helpful for me as I thought about my relationship and my.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Sister'S relationship with our parents.

[Reshma Saujani]

Check it out on Apple Podcasts. Okay, that's it. See you next week. I'm your host, Reshma Sajani. Our producer is Claire Jones. Our associate producer is Isaura Acevez. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell in Karen Waltok. Our senior supervising producer is Kristen Lepore and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oha Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax, and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show [e-mail] midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye.

[June Diane Raphael]

Hi, I'M June Diane Rafiel. And I'm Jessica St. Clair. And we would like to invite you on a host hilarious and heartfelt journey each week on the Deep Dive. From navigating the chaos of motherhood and family to exploring the depths of grief and loss, we are just two best friends who process life together and with you guys, discover our secrets to finding joy amidst the madness. And get ready for unfiltered conversations about life, love and everything in between. And nails. We talk a lot about nails now. Community is everything to us at the Deep Dive. We believe in the power of connection and the strength that comes from supporting one another. And we would love to have you with us. So be sure to join us every Wednesday on the Deep Dive from Lemonada Media, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sarah Silverman]

Why, hello there. This is your pal Sarah Silverman. You know, the stand up comic that's not afraid of a diarrhea joke. Oh my God, I'm so brave. I hope you're enjoying this podcast that you're listening to. I am just dropping in here to let you know about another podcast I think you'd like and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week, listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life, anything, their silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situations. And then I respond, whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead, search for the Sarah Silverman Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sahaj Khar Kohli]

Bye.