It’s Time to Try Empathetic Leadership with Jacinda Ardern

Summary

Podcast Summary: "It’s Time to Try Empathetic Leadership with Jacinda Ardern"

Podcast Information:

• Title: My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
• Host: Reshma Saujani (Founder of Lemonada Media)
• Episode: It’s Time to Try Empathetic Leadership with Jacinda Ardern
• Release Date: June 25, 2025
• Description: In this live episode recorded in Chicago, Reshma Saujani engages in a profound conversation with Jacinda Ardern, former Prime Minister of New Zealand. They delve into empathetic leadership, balancing personal life with public duties, overcoming imposter syndrome, and Jacinda's decision to step down at the peak of her career.

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage (00:00 – 03:47)

The episode begins with Reshma Saujani introducing the special live format recorded in Chicago, featuring Jacinda Ardern. Reshma highlights Jacinda’s tenure as New Zealand’s Prime Minister during crises such as the Christchurch mosque shootings and the COVID-19 pandemic. She emphasizes Jacinda’s leadership style rooted in empathy and kindness, setting the tone for a deep exploration of empathetic leadership.

2. Personal Background and Family Influence (03:57 – 07:30)

Key Topics:

• Jacinda's upbringing and family influence.
• The intentional sharing of personal stories in her memoir.

Notable Quote:

Jacinda Ardern [04:52]: "People will kind of ask you, well, why? How did this happen to you? And they want to know whether or not you're raised in a political house, where your values came from, why you're motivated in that way."

Jacinda discusses how her family shaped her values and motivated her entry into politics. She also shares her deliberate choice to include personal anecdotes in her memoir to provide deeper insights into her formative years, challenging the notion that politics is solely about ambition.

3. Entry into Politics and Overcoming Early Doubts (07:30 – 10:22)

Key Topics:

• Jacinda’s initial reluctance and behind-the-scenes roles in politics.
• The cultural differences between New Zealand and typical political environments.

Notable Quote:

Jacinda Ardern [08:15]: "I think that politics was a place you fix that. So I volunteered, I knocked on doors and then over time just found myself moving through the ranks until I ended up working in Parliament."

Jacinda explains her grassroots entry into politics driven by a desire to address fairness and inequality. She contrasts the approachable and methodical nature of New Zealand’s political system with the more aggressive and unpredictable environments elsewhere.

4. Imposter Syndrome and Confidence Gap (10:22 – 15:45)

Key Topics:

• The prevalence of imposter syndrome among women leaders.
• Jacinda’s perspective on imposter syndrome as a strength rather than a weakness.

Notable Quote:

Jacinda Ardern [12:27]: "I often call it a confidence gap. I think, because I see it as a spectrum..."

Jacinda delves into how imposter syndrome affects her leadership, reframing it as a confidence gap that can be harnessed positively. She emphasizes preparation and seeking expertise as ways to counteract self-doubt, advocating for a leadership style that values humility and continuous learning.

5. Rising to Prime Minister and Leadership Challenges (15:45 – 21:53)

Key Topics:

• The unexpected path to leadership within the Labour Party.
• The emotional and strategic considerations in taking the helm as Prime Minister.

Notable Quote:

Jacinda Ardern [19:00]: "If I don't think I have enough in the tank anymore, it is my responsibility."

Jacinda recounts the pivotal moment when she was encouraged by her then-leader to become the Prime Minister amidst declining poll numbers. She reflects on the weight of responsibility that ultimately drove her to accept the role, despite personal reservations and the immense pressure that followed.

6. Balancing Leadership and Motherhood (21:53 – 32:00)

Key Topics:

• The challenges of juggling the demands of being a national leader and a mother.
• The universal experience of parental guilt and striving for presence.

Notable Quote:

Jacinda Ardern [31:45]: "They hand you that baby, and then they give you your allocation of guilt as you walk out the door."

Jacinda opens up about the persistent guilt and challenges faced by working mothers, even at the highest levels of leadership. She shares personal strategies for coping with the inevitable feelings of inadequacy, emphasizing the importance of self-compassion and setting examples for her children.

7. Navigating the COVID-19 Pandemic (32:00 – 41:12)

Key Topics:

• New Zealand’s strategic response to COVID-19 under Jacinda’s leadership.
• The balance between honesty, preparedness, and managing public fear.

Notable Quote:

Jacinda Ardern [36:03]: "When people are fearful, you just share as much information as you can and you're honest when you don't have all of the answers."

Jacinda elaborates on the proactive and transparent approach New Zealand took during the pandemic. She highlights the importance of communicating uncertainty and maintaining public trust, which were pivotal in managing the crisis effectively despite the challenges of misinformation and public fatigue.

8. Handling Domestic Challenges and Public Perception (41:12 – 44:43)

Key Topics:

• The impact of misinformation and domestic protests on her leadership.
• Emotional responses to being misrepresented and facing threats.

Notable Quote:

Jacinda Ardern [41:17]: "It made me desperately sad."

Jacinda shares her emotional struggles when confronted with violent protests and disinformation campaigns targeting her leadership. She emphasizes the personal toll of public misrepresentation, expressing sadness rather than anger, and underscores the resilience needed to navigate such turbulent times.

9. Decision to Resign and Lessons in Leadership (44:43 – 52:55)

Key Topics:

• The profound decision to step down as Prime Minister.
• The importance of recognizing personal limits and the responsibility to ensure effective leadership continuity.

Notable Quote:

Jacinda Ardern [44:43]: "If I don't think I have enough in the tank anymore, it is my responsibility."

Jacinda discusses the deeply personal and challenging decision to resign, highlighting that leadership is not about enduring indefinitely but knowing when to pass the baton. She reflects on the isolation and pressure that come with such a decision, ultimately driven by a sense of duty to the nation and the well-being of her team.

10. Audience Q&A: Leadership Insights (52:55 – 57:04)

Key Topics:

• Evolution of leadership style through political experience.
• The role of kindness and empathy in effective leadership.
• Hope for future leadership models and policy changes to support women leaders.

Notable Quote:

Jacinda Ardern [45:25]: "Kindness is what I want us to be known for."

In the interactive segment, Jacinda articulates how her experiences have shaped a leadership style that prioritizes empathy, kindness, and collaboration. She advocates for policies that support parental choices and address the societal structures that often hinder women from pursuing both motherhood and leadership roles.

11. Concluding Remarks and Future Endeavors (57:04 – End)

Reshma and Jacinda wrap up the conversation by highlighting Jacinda’s upcoming documentary, "Prime Minister is Out," which aims to humanize politics and leadership. Jacinda acknowledges the integral support of her husband and the importance of showcasing that ordinary people can embody extraordinary leadership qualities.

Closing Quote:

Jacinda Ardern [54:33]: "I hope it shares a message that very normal people can and should be in politics."

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Key Takeaways:

• Empathetic Leadership: Jacinda Ardern exemplifies that leadership rooted in empathy and kindness is not only possible but also effective.
• Overcoming Self-Doubt: Imposter syndrome can be transformed into a strength through preparation, humility, and seeking expertise.
• Work-Life Balance: Balancing high-level leadership with personal life, such as motherhood, is challenging but essential, requiring societal and policy support.
• Resilience in Crisis: Transparent communication and honesty during crises build public trust and facilitate effective management.
• Leadership Transition: Knowing when to step down is a crucial aspect of responsible leadership, ensuring continuity and fresh perspectives.

This episode serves as an inspiring guide for current and aspiring leaders, emphasizing that compassion and vulnerability are powerful tools in both personal and professional realms.

Transcript

[Reshma Sajani]

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. Hi everyone, I'm David Duchovny. Join me on my podcast Fail Better, where we use failure as a lens to reflect on the past and analyze the current moment. I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie o' Donnell and Kenya Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver to understand how both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world. Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts. Lemonada welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani, so today's episode is a very special one and a first for us. You're about to hear our first ever live episode of My Soul called Midlife, recorded in front of an audience in my hometown of Chicago with my parents watching with none other than the incredible Jacinda Ardern. Jacinda was a Prime Minister of New Zealand during some of the most dark, turbulent times in recent memory. The Christchurch mosque shootings, COVID 19 pandemic, and you know, through all of it, she led with empathy, kindness and a kind of strength that, let's be honest, we rarely see in politicians. Her new book, A Different Kind of Power, is exactly that. How to Lead from youm Values. In our conversation, she talks all about leadership built on compassion, becoming a mom while in office, and how to navigate that self doubt and imposter syndrome without letting them define you. She thinks imposter syndrome is a strength. We had a little debate about the word, and also we talked about one of her boldest decisions of her life, stepping away from being Prime Minister at the height of her career. And she did it not because she was burnt out, not because she failed or was pushed out, but because she knew it was time to make a change. Knowing when to leave. That's a special kind of power. This conversation is going to remind you that leadership can look different, that empathy is powerful, that living your Life out loud and unapologetically is not a weakness. It's not a weakness to cry. It's not a weakness to care. It's not a weakness to love. That's the whole point of leadership. Can't wait to get into it. Let's go. So we're in my hometown, so Chicago is the best I'm feeling. Jacinda and I were just reminiscing about how our shoes have gotten tighter as we've gotten in menopause. So that's the place we're starting.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Mine was actually a post childbirth complaint. I have two different sized feet now, which is not how I intended to start this conversation. But here we are.

[Reshma Sajani]

Here we are. So I loved your book and everyone pick it up, read it. And you spent so much of the beginning of the book talking about how you were raised in your family. And so I want you to talk about that. And I also. You strike me as someone who doesn't do anything that's not intentional. And I want to know why you spent so much love and care in sharing those stories.

[Jacinda Ardern]

You know, in part because it was my family that was on a page and I love and care about about them. But I think there were two other reasons, you know, the first is because you get asked all the time when you're in politics. It's almost a nature versus nurture question, you know, I think in part prompted by the fact that people can't really rationalise why any sane person would go into politics.

[Reshma Sajani]

And it's not crazy for them to.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Think that, no, it's totally understandable. I understand and empathize with the question. And so people will kind of ask you, well, why? How did this happen to you? And they want to know whether or not you're raised in a political house, where your values came from, why you're motivated in that way. So in a way, I think I was finally answering that question and all the complexity of that question. But I think the second reason was I wasn't a big reader of memoir. It wasn't a genre I spent a lot of time reading. I certainly didn't read a lot of political memoir. But when I started, I thought, oh, I think people are going to expect me to jump straight into the politics. But to prepare for writing, I started reading memoirs and I deliberately didn't read political ones because I didn't want to be. I didn't want to be influenced and write in a particular way. So I read a few different ones and one that really stood out to me was Lab Girl. And it's the story of a scientist, her life, how she came to be in science. I loved the stories of her early years, the stories of her first job working in a hospital. And so I sudden stopped trivializing the idea of writing about childhood. I thought, actually, this is interesting. It gives you such an insight. And when you. I found that when I came to write about my younger years, there are certain memories. And you'll find this too, if you think about your early years, there were certain things that stand out a lot. And because those memories are right, right there, if you linger in them, you'll be able to remember extraordinary details. I think it's almost the same reason that we always remember both the first name and last name of our childhood. Shelley Ryder, Julie Bachman. I don't know, like, why. I mean, I sometimes can barely remember the name of someone I met 10 minutes ago. But we remember in detail bits of our childhood. So I found that when I stopped and Lingard, I could remember so much.

[Reshma Sajani]

And it was a very normal childhood. I mean, going back to the point where, look, most politicians, you know, probably a lot of them were like locked in basements. Right. For them to be. Let's be honest, we know who we're all thinking of right now.

[Jacinda Ardern]

But is that what happened? Tracks, really. Anyway, sorry, back to my normal childhood.

[Reshma Sajani]

But politics wasn't really a natural fit for you. So many times in the book, you know, you talked about how you were kind of behind the scenes, you were a nerd, a wonk engaged in policy, wanting to do change. I love that part where you talked about how, you know, when you. That I didn't know this about New Zealand politics, that they had like, literally a tin and people would drop in the policy that they cared about and then pick it up and that would be the one that they would try to pass law.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yeah, like it's a law lottery. Yes, we have that. It sounds very random when you don't give the context, but that's true.

[Reshma Sajani]

I want one for our congress, quite frankly, right now. But even your father would said something like, jacinda, you just don't have the skin.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yeah, yeah. Well, he actually, maybe if you'd just said it to me, that would have been okay. He said it to a sitting minister in government. When I was working in. I was working in parliament. And you're right, I was behind the scenes. And I'd started out. I'd started out as first of all a volunteer in part because I'd grown up in a place where I saw A lot of poverty and where I saw a lot of inequality. And when you see things through a child's eyes, you just come away with this idea. Not that it's about politics, but actually it's just about fairness. And fairness in New Zealand is such a striking value. You know, it's this, we have this sense of injustice that's kind of in here, which I've always observed. And so that was this, this idea of fairness and just kids not having what I had. And how do you fix that? Well, over time I figured out that politics was a place you fix that. So I volunteered, I knocked on doors and then over time just found myself moving through the ranks until I ended up working in Parliament and got to know a few MPs. And my father, who was a policeman, was at a police event one day when the Minister of police found him and said, I know your daughter Jacinda, I think she'd make a great mp. And he said, oh no, no, no, she's too thin skinned for that. And I'm not angry. He said that he was absolutely right, I was too thin skinned. But you know what? Still am.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, I want to get to that because I actually think that we need more thin skinned politicians and I want to get back to that in a minute. So you have. And the thing is you have a lot of people in your path that say, jacinda, you need to run Jacinda, you need to run Jacinda, you need to lead people who kind of recognized your potential, even maybe in some ways before you do. This is kind of what happens and how you become Prime Minister.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yeah, well, this is one of the things so I observed and I don't think it's, you know, I don't think it's unique to me, but I remember as I became an mp, which was again, through a set of unusual circumstances, but we'll skip over that for the purposes of this story. And I was visiting a school and it was for a leadership program. And so I went in to talk to a classroom of young women. They were about 15 or 16 years old at a school called Auckland Girls Grammar and State School, full of a diverse group of young women. And I asked them to just run this exercise with me where I said, I want you to write down on a page your ideal job. If you could write down any job you could do in the world, I just want you to write that down. And they all diligently wrote down the name of their dream career. And then I gave them a couple of minutes and Then I said, okay, well, now I want you to write down what you think you'll do. And they all instantly picked up their pen, they weren't confused by the question, and immediately wrote something down.

[Reshma Sajani]

And that was different.

[Jacinda Ardern]

That was different. And so I asked them, how many of you wrote something down that was different? Almost every hand went up, and I picked out one girl. What was your first answer? Well, your second answer. And she said to me, what I think I'm gonna do? Well, I think I'm gonna be a travel agent. And I said, well, what was your first answer, Doctor? And I said, why don't you think you'll be a doctor? And she said, I just think there'll be someone else who's better. And it was a real kicker for me because as she articulated that, I thought I was that young woman. I absolutely was. So this idea of being asked. Yes, I had to be convinced for lots of reasons to put myself out there, but so do a lot of young people, and so do a lot of young women, especially. So I became really interested in politics. Why is that? What holds us back? And I think a big part of it is because we have an assumption both about ourselves, but also about what a politician is.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah. Can we sit there for. Because I. You could you. I have imposter syndrome is, like, my least favorite word. I did a speech about how I feel like it's a big.

[Jacinda Ardern]

You would have really loved it in the book thing, because it's all through it.

[Reshma Sajani]

I know. I did.

[Jacinda Ardern]

I did.

[Reshma Sajani]

I did cross it out a bunch of times and said, I'm gonna have a talk with you, but here we are. This is the talk we're having. But, you know, because I think. And I think you're going there. It's like imposter syndrome in many ways. It was a term that came out in the 70s. It came out at a moment of enormous progress for women. And oftentimes, when I speak to young women, I say, how many of you have imposter syndrome? Everyone raises their hand, and how many of you. This imposter syndrome stops you from doing something. Every hand is raised. And so I think if you look at moments, there is language and words that we use and that come up in culture to prevent women from progressing. I think you understood this even though you may have felt it.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Right. I often call it a confidence gap. I think, because I see it as a spectrum, you know, and there's. There's some who feel it to such an extreme degree that. That unable. That sometimes it's just such a struggle to even move beyond it. And there'll be others where they feel it, but they're able to push through anyway. I think regardless of whether you use the title or not, we can't deny it's in us. It's in us. And so one of the things that took me years though, and this is the thing I'd like to challenge when we talk about imposter syndrome, we've treated as a weakness. It's a frailty. It's a trait that holds people back. And my experience of it, and it took me a while, was I didn't lose it, it didn't go away. I still carry it with me. It's still in there right now. I find this a very daunting experience. And yet the thing that I would rather impart with you isn't that after five years of leading a country that suddenly, poof. It will be. It said, after five years of leading a country, I realized that it was a trait that helped me and it helped me in ways that I would never have anticipated. Who here has had a confidence gap at some point in their lives? Just so I can't do that. No. Yep. And we all have an instinctive response to when we feel like that we do something. We just don't sit there with that discomfort. We then go and do something with it. And the thing that I used to do with it is that I would prepare. Okay. I don't feel entirely comfortable in this situation. So I'm going to try and feel better about it by preparing as much as I can. I'm going to deep dive, I'm going to research whatever I'm required to do. When I interned in Parliament, I got out parliamentary practice in New Zealand, a 900 page guidebook so that I could understand the standing orders of the New Zealand Parliament. MPs don't read that book. But here I was swatting away. And it also, I think if you have to make a decision on something, it means that you'll go and listen to experts, you'll bring humility to your decision making, you'll seek advice, you'll ask others, you'll talk about it. Now, you cannot tell me in leadership that you don't want someone who's going to be prepared or someone who is going to go and seek advice and expertise from others. That is a strength. Why don't we see it that way? And so that would be what I would impart.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, I think you're saying something really powerful, which there's a Difference between being prepared and perfection. Right. There's a difference between excellence and perfection. And I think where perfection in particular for women's leadership is dangerous, we talk ourselves out of doing the things. So I'll give you. You are the prime example of that here. You are, right, who's supposed to be the leader of the party, basically says, I'm dropping out. It's you. You have 53 days. Yeah, 53 days, yep. Right. There's only been two other women who are elect, or is there only one other woman at this point that's ever been elected Prime Minister of New Zealand? 2.

[Jacinda Ardern]

2. 2. That's actually a pretty good record there. Let's not diminish it.

[Reshma Sajani]

Isn't that funny she said that. Pretty good record, right? And we're like, yes, we'll take it. Right.

[Jacinda Ardern]

So that's an important point.

[Reshma Sajani]

You're pregnant.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Well, at the time, thankfully, that I got asked, I was not at that point.

[Reshma Sajani]

But you are soon after.

[Jacinda Ardern]

I was soon after, yeah. I mean, let's. So that is an important point to make. It's a strength until you let it stop you. Because once you leave, it stop you. We're not benefiting from your leadership. We're not benefiting from those traits. So, you know, I think the circumstances where I found myself as leader of the Labor Party, just to give a bit of context, because I never assumed that anyone was watching New Zealand politics in July of 2017. But we'd been in opposition for nine years, and we'd had the same leader for three years, a guy called Andrew Little. Great guy. Ex union leader, lawyer by training. Great guy. But we were struggling in the polls and it was my birthday, so I remember this really, really well. We were in a meeting together when our polling for that day came through. And I felt the little. I knew what time the polling came through and I would get it and Andrew would get it because he made me his deputy leader. And deputy leadership does not mean next in charge. It just means really earnest person who's gonna support the leader. And so I felt the little ziz in my pocket of polling for the week, and I snuck a little look and my heart just sank because last week had been bad and that week was worse. We were moving into the low 20% mark. That meant the government of the day who we were trying to unseat were 20 points in front of us. That means annihilation in the election. And, you know, I'm a pretty earnest, Pollyanna, ish person in dark times for those who might need it. You know, so I, after the meeting, flicked off a text to Andrew, just saying, look, I believe in you. Once we get out, don't worry about once we get out on the campaign trail. It's gonna be okay. And then I just get this one back. Can we talk? And even then, I just had this little. This little butterfly in my stomach thinking, oh, I mean, Andrew wasn't the kind of person that would call me in for a little deep and meaningful. So I thought, this must be. This might be something else.

[Reshma Sajani]

And so did you think it was that?

[Jacinda Ardern]

I don't. Not realistically. I mean, I did think, oh, what's he gonna do? You know, this seems unlike him. He's quite unflappable. But we were 15 minutes out from Question Time. That's when everyone goes down into the debating chamber. And so I knew it wouldn't be a long conversation, so I popped round to his office, sat myself down on his couch, and he sat opposite me, and he said, justin, I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I can pull us out of this. And then he said, I think maybe you might need to do it. And I remember trying really hard not to vomit. And I immediately jumped in to all of the reasons why he needed to stay. You know, it would be a shock to voters. It would make us look like we weren't ready to govern. It would be too disruptive. And in my head, it's just. I'm just not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me, not me. Because I immediately went to all of the things that you have to do when you're a leader running to be the Prime Minister of New Zealand.

[Reshma Sajani]

And you didn't. We're talking about this more. But this wasn't the job you've been gunning for your whole life.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Absolutely not. It had been the job that my entire time in Parliament, I had denied ever wanting, because that was the truth.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yes.

[Jacinda Ardern]

And it's a strange thing in politics. It's assumed. And this comes back to this assumption about politics. It's assumed that everyone is ambitious. They will ask you from the moment you get in there, so you want to be Prime Minister. It's very few careers that people assume that you must want to be at the top, but I never did. So I left that conversation with Andrew, assuming he would go away, you know, really firm up his position and just get ready to go out there and campaign. But a week later, he came to work and he quit. And then he nominated me. And so that was So I mean, coming back to this question, I never really overcame the doubt, but there is one thing I found that can completely outweigh it in those moments that quietens the noise and pushes us this it shouldn't be me question and it is the sense of responsibility. If that is also a factor for you. I found personally, the dueling wolves doubt always got monstered by responsibility and so that is what carried me into that job.

[Reshma Sajani]

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[Jacinda Ardern]

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[Jacinda Ardern]

And you, I don't know that I've ever been called that. I've been called many things. Huh. That's so interesting.

[Reshma Sajani]

You are, you are complicated because in this, for so many reasons, because I think this point about, this point about like not pursuing power but being deeply, deeply committed to purpose is a very important thing. I think that I realize I need to look for in people who I want to lead.

[Jacinda Ardern]

So this, not to move into a full therapy session, but this is actually, I think one of the things I really wanted to impart. I actually don't think I'm complicated and I think I'm actually very normal. What's abnormal is to find normal in leadership.

[Reshma Sajani]

And yes, keep going, keep going. As your therapist, you are onto something.

[Jacinda Ardern]

I think most people, I think most people are actually strongly purpose driven, but I think when we look at what are the norms in different roles, then we self exclude. Because if you ask anyone to describe what they see or think of as a politician, even the most polite person will use adjectives like ego, brash, confident, liar, you know, things that most people wouldn't identify with and therefore you then say, well actually then that's not the place for me. But I think most people have a bunch of the traits that I value and that I think are important. They just don't end up in politics. That's what I'm on a mission to change. Because there is a place for that and there's not just a place for it, we need it.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yes, yes. Yeah, like, I mean it's empathy. Empathy and kindness, which is exactly what your book is about. Right. Is what we are, what we need more of right now. And so I think the fact that you wear that on your sleeve and you wear that as the trait that you are the proudest of, I think is just is what makes me such a huge admirer of you. One of the things as a mother, 5 year old and 10 year old Anna's that really moved me by both the book and the film were all the things you had, you kind of went through. Right. And basically having a child. Right. And being Prime Minister at the same Time breastfeeding at the un. Changing dirty diapers. You know, I mean, that moment, right, where you're.

[Jacinda Ardern]

To be fair, my husband changed most of those. Just in case he's in the room and he's, like, corrupt.

[Reshma Sajani]

We need to give him a round of applause because. Because I, I wanted to really take a picture with him backstage than you. But for all the laundry that he did and, like, for all. Just again, like, to me, that's like manhood. Right. And that's the type of manhood that we need to really show is, like, he was so invested in supporting you. Right. And showing up.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yeah. But he was also invested in just being a good dad.

[Reshma Sajani]

Dad. Yeah.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yeah.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yes. And so what. What. What's your. What's your going through all of that? What's your. Where do you cut out? Because I saw you so many times, and I feel this way as I was building Girls who Code and Moms first and having young children. Is that push and pull that you feel, wanting to be in two places at the same time, Never fully being present, always feeling like it's so damn hard.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I've shared some insights into how that felt in part because. Not because I was inviting everyone to a pity party, but actually because there were those moments I was like, this is what every parent goes through. There's something very leveling, very universal about the experience of parenthood. And so one of the things I think I've. I don't know if it's useful, but felt like I wanted to impart on a page is that guilt that you feel that you should always be somewhere else. I think we sometimes might think might be lessened if you've just got a really good reason for being somewhere else. But I can tell you, you can lead a country and you will still feel bad all of the time. And there was a lesson in that for me. And the lesson for me was that that's just the price you pay for the gift of parenthood.

[Reshma Sajani]

That's right.

[Jacinda Ardern]

It's just. They hand you that baby, and then they give you your allocation of guilt as you walk out the door. And you will carry that with you.

[Reshma Sajani]

And the other thing that was so powerful, I think about that lesson is. And they're gonna be just fine.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yes.

[Reshma Sajani]

When you tell Nev that you're resigning, instead of her being like, hooray, we're gonna do more tea parties. Right? She's like, mommy, I thought we're not supposed to quit. Wow.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yeah. I mean, you guys go, oh, I was like at first, until I thought about it and then I thought, wait, she was okay? Yeah, she was okay. And the other thought, and I didn't put this on the page, but I've thought about it a lot since, is that when I think about the conversations I have with her about what and that we'd all, as parents, we have about what we want, what our kids want to do in the future, you know, what do you want to be? What do you want to do? And we love to hear the lists of aspiration and ideas, you know, and I think that if any one of them said to us, well, you know, I might have a career, but I just want to be a parent and a really good one because otherwise I'll just feel really bad. I'm just, just going to focus in on that and I'll probably do something on the side, but I'm not going to prioritize it because I don't want to have, I'm just going to focus on being a parent. We would coach them and counsel them to find joy to yes, they want to be a mom or a dad, be a mum or a dad, but, you know, be what finds, you know, find their joy. And yet we don't give ourselves that same grace. So whenever I feel that way, I try and think, what would I say to Niamh if she was feeling this emotion right now? What would I say to her? And the only way I can sometimes cut myself some slack is if I think about what I want for her. An Australian hiker travels to the American west to walk a wilderness trail. Wasn't afraid to be out on his own, but Eric Robinson vanished in the Hyuinta Mountains. I remember thinking, Eric, what were you thinking, mate? I'm Dave Colley. Join me on my podcast Uinta Triangle where I travel the world to answer the question, what happened to Eric Robinson? Follow Uinta Triangle. That's U I n T a triangle. On Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.

[Reshma Sajani]

I'm Josh Mankiewicz and I hope you'll.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Join us for season four of Dateline Missing in America. In each episode of Dateline's award winning series, we will focus on one missing persons case and hear from the families.

[Reshma Sajani]

The friends and the investigators all desperate to find them. You will want to listen closely.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Maybe you could help investigators solve a mystery.

[Reshma Sajani]

Dateline Missing in America. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Meredith Goldstein, host of the Boston Globes Love Letters podcast which features real people from all over the world telling stories about their relationship, lives this season we're talking about how to change for the better. I just remember thinking like, wow, this is what a healthy relationship looks and feels like. The reason why I'm getting emotional is I didn't want to leave you. I never thought I would be this way again. Join us at Love Letters, wherever you get your podcasts. COVID 19, huge hallmark, right?

[Jacinda Ardern]

You just slapped that one straight on the table, didn't you?

[Reshma Sajani]

I know, I know. But New Zealand was a huge kind of leader in terms of the response. Some of the lowest cases of COVID 19. And I think it was again another huge example of your tremendous leadership. You win reelection kind of in the middle of the pandemic. But then things start to shift.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yeah, it got hard. I think it was hard. I think I can, I feel really confident saying this. Covid was really hard. Covid was really hard for everyone. It just so happens that we chose to take a very particular approach and this is where that over preparation really kicked in. And also some of my views on the idea of confidence and trust. We have this idea in leadership that in order to inspire confidence amongst those who elect us, that we must demonstrate absolute knowledge. Absolutely. That you can never say I don't know. You can never not have an answer to a question. And yet, Covid, it was clear that we didn't know. We didn't know everything we needed to about this illness. We were in an imperfect environment and there was a lot of fear because of that. And my view is that when people are fearful, you just share as much information as you can and you're honest when you don't have all of the answers. And actually in that honesty, people will see. Actually, I believe that that's true. I can tell that you don't know everything. The important part is you have to have a plan in that imperfect environment. You have to tell people where you are going because they need that certainty. And so for us, when saw that flattening the curve, which is what we all said we were going to do at the beginning, wasn't working because it was too infectious as an illness, the R value, we all became epidemiologists in New Zealand, the R value was just too high. You couldn't kind of just keep it where you wanted to. Once there was a full blown outbreak in community transmission, it got away. And no matter how good your hospital system was, it would overwhelm it. And so when we knew that in New Zealand and Covid came to us a little later than most. February, end of February 2020, when we learned that we thought, well, we have to try something different. Because they told me how many people would die if we didn't try something different. And so it was the weight of that knowledge that meant we tried to have a strategy where we had Covid cases. We would just try and get rid of them altogether. And we used our border to do that. And as a result, we had very long periods with no Covid, we would be watching the rest of the world. And our experience of it for long periods was very different, but it was still so hard. And when vaccines arrived, people were fatigued. I think the stress of dealing with COVID generally, and of course, all of the public health requirements, it took its toll. And we asked people if they worked in certain sectors to be vaccinated. Health, education, borders. And not everyone agreed with that as well. And so we experienced a lot of the fracturing that you experienced and that every nation experienced. And that, to me, I think, sends a message, though, around the long lag we have from COVID which some of it was exacerbated by MIS and disinformation. Those are still. Those are the hangovers of COVID that we need to keep addressing. Yeah.

[Reshma Sajani]

How did you feel? I was watching the documentary and I could. How did you feel of having those protesters outside? And also just some of the language and like the kind of outward violence.

[Jacinda Ardern]

I think one of the hardest emotions, and I would say not just politics, but probably leadership, maybe in life. Just generally when. When you feel misrepresented, when you feel like someone has a perception of you that you just don't believe is fair, it's a very hard, hard thing to deal with. And so when I was looking over out at this, we had a occupation of our parliamentary grounds that started six weeks after the freedom convoy in Canada. So we knew there was a connection between them. Canadian numbers were calling tow truck companies in New Zealand threatening them not to tow any of the vehicles from the occupation. And there were QANON flags, American flags, Trump flags on our forecourt.

[Reshma Sajani]

During this period of time, there's an occupation that forms in essentially like the lawn of the parliament complex. Yeah.

[Jacinda Ardern]

And time wise, it was after we weren't using stay at home orders anymore. We'd opened up our borders. Timing wise, it just didn't really make a lot of sense. But at that time, also, New Zealand was consuming, I think, 30% more Russian disinformation than the United States as well. We were one of the highest consumers in the Pacific. So there was a lot going on. Not to say that There weren't some people who were just simply motivated that they didn't like the government's vaccine policies. So that was the context. But even as I looked out on this forecourt and saw some of. I mean, they erected gallows for me and other politicians, but even then, as I looked out, I thought we were just trying to save people's lives. But you know what? That's what they thought they were doing too, because they thought vaccines killed people.

[Reshma Sajani]

And it didn't make you angry or mad, and I want to talk about that.

[Jacinda Ardern]

It made me sad. It made me desperately sad. Don't worry, I'm not inhuman. There were moments where I felt very.

[Reshma Sajani]

Angry, like, I'm going to kick your ass.

[Jacinda Ardern]

I mean, I never want to say anyone should ever be compelled to violence, but the first time I saw the documentary, the final cut of the documentary all the way through, which was at Sundance, he was asked afterwards, what was your reaction? I thought, would you put an F bomb from me in the docker? I was mortified. I was like, my mother's gonna watch this. And it was while I was watching the final stages of the occupation because they burnt down the children's playground. And that really got me. It really got me.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah. I wanna. As we start to take questions from the audience, I just wanna. I was telling Jacinda, I remember when you resigned, and at first I remember being angry. Oh, well, I was angry because I wanted you to be there forever. But then I remember being like, wow, she's a boss. Like, what a full exercise of power. Like, you weren't quietly quitting, you were loudly living like a choice that you had made for yourself to be like, I'm done. And what an example. Can you. Can you talk about. Talk about that?

[Jacinda Ardern]

You know, it's so. It's so. And I knew this would be the case when I was thinking about it, but it is very hard. It is very hard to exit politics. It is firstly, in part, I think, because the usual options for leaving are you lose or you die. And I thought, well, that's. I mean, that's not a lot of options. And what if actually it's just time that you know that all of those things that really matter to you in leadership, like not being defensive, maintaining your curiosity, and then really importantly, having enough in reserve to keep going in really difficult times. And by this time, of course, over those five years, we had the pandemic, we had the domestic terror attack, we also had a volcanic eruption, we had a major biosecurity incursion. We had natural disasters. It was a tough few years. And before that, I'd already been in parliament for 10. And so for me, actually, it just felt like it wasn't time for a mic drop. It was just time for a baton to be handed over. But making that decision is lonely. You can't talk to a lot of people about the decision to leave in politics. Cause the moment someone hears about it, that there's doubt that you're sticking around and then you're done. And so I only told a few people and they didn't want me to go. They told me, you know, we might not win without you. You know that. And if you've got a burden of responsibility to the people you're there serving, that weighs really heavily on you. But actually, that was how I convinced myself it was okay to leave, was that sense of responsibility. If I don't think I have enough in the tank anymore, it is my responsibility. Responsibility to hand over to someone else. And. And that was when I allowed myself the. The choice.

[Reshma Sajani]

So powerful questions from the audience. They are now here. And so I want to take a couple from the audience.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yeah, you can send your questions in by See humanity.

[Reshma Sajani]

She's gonna do my job.

[Jacinda Ardern]

And your message to 22333.

[Reshma Sajani]

Thank you. It's just I. I see it.

[Jacinda Ardern]

I just wasn't sure if your eyesight.

[Reshma Sajani]

I appreciate it.

[Jacinda Ardern]

See, this is why you're small.

[Reshma Sajani]

You're a prime minister and I am not. Thank you.

[Jacinda Ardern]

No, it's because I'm barely hanging onto my sight and I didn't know if you're in the same category.

[Reshma Sajani]

Just the feet. Not the eyes yet. Just the feet. I like this question. Okay. How has your experience in politics enhanced or evolved your leadership style?

[Jacinda Ardern]

A great question you might have picked up from the conversation that right from the beginning of my time in politics, I assume that because to fulfil not just the public's expectation of what you need to be to be a leader in politics, but actually, if you wanted to survive, you had to be a very particular way. And so I observed that and thought, well, that's probably a reason why I'm just going to stick back here and look, if I move up through the ranks, I do, and if I don't, I don't. And that's okay. But circumstance led me to a position where finally, actually I was in a position that. To test whether or not you could survive in politics whilst being very openly guided by kindness. And I even said that, I said it publicly, kindness is what I want us to be known for. I got to test that in real time. I got to test whether or not you could be thin skinned in leadership, whether you could carry a confidence gap in leadership. And I'd like to think that I proved you could.

[Reshma Sajani]

And you definitely proved you could.

[Jacinda Ardern]

And so now I want other people to know. It's really important to me because I run a fellowship now on empathetic leadership. And one of the most important things I hope that those politicians who are part of it take away is that you can be successful as well. Because otherwise, if you take on these skills and traits as an empathetic leader, but you don't, if you don't take them all the way to the top, then the public don't get to benefit from that, you can be successful as well. And the reason for that is because I think people are hungry for it.

[Reshma Sajani]

They are.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Give voters a chance to vote for kindness, compassion, consensus and empathy. Give them a chance to vote for that. Because at the moment we think the only way to succeed is by being a strong man in politics. We'll put it to the test. Let's ask the voters and let them decide what they want in their leadership.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, I love that. I think that's right. I think we're, I think we're over the bully. We want something new. I think that the tide is starting to turn. Which kind of. Lisa's last question, which is, or the second question which is like, what gives you hope in this challenging times? Do you feel like we are in the middle of a portal into something new? That we're at the fourth quarter, as we like to say?

[Jacinda Ardern]

I don't, I don't know if we, I don't know if we, we are or not. You know, I've been, I, I like to deep dive on history sometimes. And when you think about the magnitude, for instance, of world events, you know, a world war, hot off the back of that, a horrific pandemic in 1918 known as the Spanish Flu in my part of the world that took hordes of lives. I mean, we're talking outstripping the deaths from the war. And in New Zealand, there's a, during the pandemic, there's a historic graveyard in New Zealand where they marked up the people who had died during that pandemic. And it is almost overwhelming. And then, you know, we go into a Great Depression and more global warfare. Horrific, horrific times, you know, and that is not to diminish the complexity of the time that we're in now. But one of the reason I like to reflect back on where we've been before is you can sometimes find patterns in the way that we respond to fear and uncertainty. And you can see through time that politicians, in response to fear and uncertainty, have deployed different tools. And at the moment, we're seeing writ large the tool of fear, the tool of blame, the tool that is used to very quickly excuse yourself as a politician from finding the complex answers that are required. And you even find that through history, at various points, politicians have blamed other nations, multilateral institutions, very rarely sitting and taking responsibility for fixing the issues at hand that are presented. But there are also examples in history of the alternative to what we might be used to at the moment. It is not beyond our reach to have that kind of leadership here, because it's been here before. And I'd say that globally as well, we just need to give it a chance to succeed and thrive. And so I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic because I don't see indifference.

[Reshma Sajani]

I'm with you in the world here. I just did a commencement speech on this idea of disconnection. And 10 million views, 300,000 comments. And it gave me so much. I'm like, people don't want to be this divided. They don't. I think. Final question after your experience, the role Clyde has played, what you've kind of seen across the world. You know, New Zealand is an exemplar in terms of paid leave and affordable childcare. Like, what. What needs to change to really have women be able to be mothers, be leaders? You know what I mean? I don't like the word balance, but, like, really to kind of fundamentally change workplaces, change the structure to make it not feel like you're constantly choosing between one or the other and you're in two places at the same time.

[Jacinda Ardern]

I do think policy. I think policy matters. What government does matters. And so, you know, when I think about New Zealand, when we first came in, we extended paid parental leave to six months. We also increased support for parents who might be leaving on their own caring for their children. And if we want to talk about heroes in the world, the heroes. And one of the other things we did was put in a universal tax credit for the first year of a child's life. We also increased access to child support subsidies so that, again, every sole parent almost in New Zealand would have access to them. And it was not because we came in with an ideology of parents should go out and work, or that we came in with an ideology of parents should stay at home and care. We came in with a view that families should be able to choose. They should be able to choose what works for them. But so many do not have choices. They do not have choices because they don't have the financial security to make those decisions. And what could we do to restore that? You know, I think if we want more women in leadership, we have to acknowledge that they are still primary caregivers. And yes, we can do as much as we can to try and again change the dial so that, again, families can make that decision as to whether they're primary caregivers or not. But the reality is that they are most of the time. So what can we do to give them a choice? And for my part, what I underestimated is while we were beavering away on making all of those changes and doing those things as government, for some women, just the fact I was there, being a mum and a leader, that made a difference to them as well.

[Reshma Sajani]

It did. You cannot be what you cannot see. Well, thank you so much. I want to. Before we close, there is an incredible. Jacinda's incredible, incredible, incredible documentary. Prime Minister is out.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yes. Actually, there's a screening today and it's across a hundred cinemas today. And then from the 13th of June, it will be running again across AMC theaters across the United States.

[Reshma Sajani]

So I got a sneak peek. My dad got a sneak peek. I could not stop thinking about it. You know, there are times when you watch something and it just makes you. It just moves you, but it also just makes you think that is this documentary. So I encourage all of you to. To see it. Take 10 friends to see it and we're give you a little.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Yeah, once we get off the stage, because there's no way I'm sitting here and watching myself. But, you know, a strong Chicago connection because the producer of the film is Madison Wells and Gigi Pritzker. That's an acknowledgement. And, you know, here, if I could finish on a final note. Note, if I may. And just, you know, I couldn't have done what I did in politics without Clark, my husband. And he had the wisdom when I was in office to think this is. This seems like a wild ride as a broadcaster. He decided to pick up a camera and he started filming me. I was not happy about that most of the time, but he persisted. And I'm glad he persisted because after I left office, some incredible filmmakers then produced this documentary, which I hope just humanises politics and leadership. And so, if nothing else, I hope it shares a message that a very, very, very normal people can and should be in politics, so certainly for coming.

[Reshma Sajani]

And thank you for listening. Well, thank you so much Jacinda. Thank you. Our deepest thanks to Jacinda for this beautiful conversation. Her new book, A Different Kind of Power is out now. And thank you to The Chicago Humanities 2025 Spring Festival for having us in conversation. One last thing, thank you so much for listening to my so called bid life. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You're going to get bonus content like me and Shannon Watts talking about stepping away from organizations we founded. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's Lemonada Premium. Thanks y' all. See you next week. I'm your host Rashmi Sajani. Our associate producer is Isara Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltok. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development development team, Oha Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this [e-mail] follow my so called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Hey, I'm Nicole Norfleet.

[Reshma Sajani]

And I'm Erin Brown and we work at the Minnesota Star Tribute and we've.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Got a brand new show called Worth It.

[Reshma Sajani]

Every week we get together with a group of people who know Minnesota inside and out.

[Jacinda Ardern]

We skip the Minnesota nights and get right to the good stuff. We share the stories and the happenings around the state. Worth your time and your money. Worth it.

[Reshma Sajani]

From the Minnesota Star Tribune and Lemonada.

[Jacinda Ardern]

Media Every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.