Midlife Isn’t a Crisis. It's a Call to Action! with Shannon Watts

Summary

Podcast Title: My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani

Episode: Midlife Isn’t a Crisis. It's a Call to Action! with Shannon Watts

Release Date: June 11, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of My So-Called Midlife, host Reshma Saujani delves into the transformative power of midlife, challenging the conventional notion of it being a crisis. Joining her is Shannon Watts, the founder of Moms Demand Action, who shares her inspiring journey from a stay-at-home mom to a leading activist in the fight against gun violence.

Shannon's Journey into Activism

Shannon Watts opens up about her unexpected path to activism. Initially an introverted individual with severe ADHD, Shannon's life took a pivotal turn following the tragic Sandy Hook shooting in 2012. This event ignited a profound anger and sense of moral clarity within her, compelling her to take action.

[04:04] Shannon Watts: "I just woke up the next day and I couldn't do nothing. I had to do something."

Leveraging the power of social media, Shannon created a Facebook page titled One Million Moms for Gun Control, which quickly gained traction, eventually evolving into Moms Demand Action.

Facing Challenges and Overcoming Fear

Shannon candidly discusses the immense challenges she faced while establishing her movement. From receiving threats of violence to navigating a highly polarized environment, the journey was fraught with obstacles.

[10:07] Shannon Watts: "Oh, I am terrified... our lives are about to be upended."

Despite these fears, Shannon chose to double down on her commitment, refusing to be silenced or intimidated.

[11:48] Reshma Sajani: "And you decide to double down."

Midlife: A Catalyst for Change

Reshma and Shannon explore the concept of midlife not as a period of decline but as a powerful phase ripe for initiating meaningful change. Shannon emphasizes that midlife offers a unique blend of experience, clarity, and resilience, enabling individuals to make significant impacts.

[24:04] Reshma Sajani: "You know, I love this quote you have, is that women in midlife are the backbone of most grassroots movements."

Embracing Incrementalism and Community Engagement

Shannon highlights the importance of incremental progress and community-focused activism. She recounts how Moms Demand Action pivoted from seeking federal legislation to focusing on local initiatives, understanding that real change often starts at the grassroots level.

[25:00] Shannon Watts: "Incrementalism is what leads to revolutions."

This strategic shift allowed the movement to build momentum, ultimately contributing to significant legislative victories in states like Virginia.

Stories of Resilience and Success

Shannon shares poignant stories from her book, Fired Up: How to Turn Your Spark into a Flame and Come Alive at Any Age, showcasing women who overcame repeated failures to achieve their dreams. These narratives underscore the central theme of persistence and the transformative power of continued effort despite setbacks.

[36:47] Shannon Watts: "She got in at 40 years old... She graduates from law school, she becomes the first black president of her law school, and now her fulfillment comes from getting other women of color into law schools across the country."

Balancing Personal Sacrifice and Legacy

The conversation deepens as Shannon and Reshma discuss the personal sacrifices involved in activism. Shannon reveals that her children appreciate her dedication to her cause, emphasizing that pursuing one's passions does not have to come at the expense of family relationships.

[41:17] Shannon Watts: "They all say, number one, I'm so grateful you had something else to focus on besides my homework and my life. And number two, you set an example me to follow my desires and to pursue what I want."

Final Advice and Empowerment

In wrapping up, Shannon offers empowering advice to women in midlife and beyond. She encourages embracing failure as feedback and stresses the importance of building a supportive community. Her message is clear: it's never too late to ignite one's passion and leave a meaningful legacy.

[43:23] Shannon Watts: "You are just getting started."

Conclusion

This episode serves as a powerful reminder that midlife can be a period of profound impact and personal fulfillment. Shannon Watts' story exemplifies how resilience, community engagement, and a commitment to one's values can transform perceived crises into opportunities for meaningful action.

Reshma wraps up by highly recommending Shannon's book, urging listeners to embrace their own journeys of self-discovery and activism.

[45:59] Reshma Sajani: "Shannon's book is called Fired Up: How to Turn Your Spark into a Flame and Come Alive at Any Age. As I said, I loved it and I highly recommend it."

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Notable Quotes:

• Shannon Watts ([04:04]): "I just woke up the next day and I couldn't do nothing. I had to do something."
• Shannon Watts ([10:07]): "Oh, I am terrified... our lives are about to be upended."
• Shannon Watts ([24:59]): "Incrementalism is what leads to revolutions."
• Shannon Watts ([43:23]): "You are just getting started."

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This episode is a testament to the strength and influence of women in midlife, showcasing how personal experiences and challenges can fuel movements that drive societal change. Shannon Watts' journey from a concerned mother to a national activist provides invaluable insights and inspiration for anyone seeking to make a difference at any stage of life.

Transcript

[Reshma Sajani]

Guess what? Discover is accepted at 99% of the places that take credit cards nationwide. You heard right, 99%. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn more at discover.com creditcard hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast.

[Shannon Watts]

I think you're going to love.

[Reshma Sajani]

It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcast. Lemonader welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. I get asked all the time, Reshma, how do I make a difference? What's the first step? And here's what I tell them. You don't need to start a nonprofit. You don't need to run for office. You just need to start where you are with what breaks your heart. As someone who spent the past 15 years Building movements for women and girls, from Girls who Code to Moms first look, I've learned that activism, it doesn't begin with a plan. It begins with a moment. A moment that moves you. That's exactly what happened to Shannon Watts. She wasn't born an activist. She was a stay at home mom who was scared of public speaking. But after the tragedy at Sandy Hook, she took a deep breath, opened Facebook, and just started typing. That post became Moms Demand Action, the largest grassroots movement fighting to end gun violence in America. Shannon's story, it's just a reminder that midlife isn't the end of your impact. It's the beginning. Her new book, Fired up how to Turn youn Spark into a Flame and Come Alive at any age. It's just a powerful roadmap for anyone feeling stuck or overwhelmed or just invisible. It's for all of us asking, is it too late to matter? Spoiler alert. It's not. Because midlife, it isn't a crisis. It's a call. And Shannon is here to show us how to answer it. Shannon, as you know, we talk a lot about midlife on this show. And some people are like, fuck yeah, I'm turning 60, I feel great. And some people are like, yeah, like, can we just rewind the clock or move it backwards? Like, where do you land?

[Shannon Watts]

I had a hard time turning 40. I loved turning 50.

[Reshma Sajani]

Tell me. Because I'm turning 50 this year. I don't feel that way yet. Why? What?

[Shannon Watts]

Well, I got started early in life, So I had three kids by the time I was 29 years old. And I really felt like I missed out on all the fun so many people in my generation had in that decade.

[Reshma Sajani]

And.

[Shannon Watts]

And so I feel like I'm getting to do that now, but with more money and more time on my hands. I mean, I'm an empty nester. Right. And I have kids.

[Reshma Sajani]

That's right. How old are your kids?

[Shannon Watts]

So my biological kids are 24, 28, and 29. And my step kids are 31 and 36.

[Reshma Sajani]

Wow. You lucky, lucky bitch. Mine are like 10. 10 and 5. I'm like, still.

[Shannon Watts]

But you had fun in your 20s.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, I did okay. I actually had fun up until, like, I was 38. Yeah.

[Shannon Watts]

So you cheated.

[Reshma Sajani]

I know. I don't know, though, which way, to be honest. Like, I don't. I don't know which way I would do it if I had got the chance again, because I think there's upsides and downsides to both.

[Shannon Watts]

Absolutely. Like, I would not recommend doing both. I would not recommend having kids in your 20s and your 40s.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, I agree. But some people do that. I'm like, you're crazy.

[Shannon Watts]

It's so crazy. It's so crazy.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, no, it is. It does really make a big difference on lots of things in how you decided. No one really tells you, you know, which way. So, look, we've known each other for a really long time, and I love you. I love your story. I'm such a big admirer of you and your work. But a lot of people may not still know, like, why you're such a badass. So can you just, like, humor me and, like, take us all on your journey with activism? How did you get involved in fighting for gun safety?

[Shannon Watts]

Well, first, let me say back at you, I feel the same way. When I met you, I was like, oh, here's my fellow indomitable woman. I love this. So I feel a kinship with you. But I want to be clear that some of that, for me, was acquired. It's not innate. You know, I'm not a unicorn. I can tell you the story of Moms Demand Action, but I think it's important to give you some context, which is before Starting moms demand action. I'm an introvert. I was terrified of public speaking. And I also have severe, somewhat debilitating adhd. And so I came to this with all of those obstacles. But for me, and this is what this book I've written is all about, is like, how do you find the formula for you to come alive? As I said, I had three kids by the time I was 29. I was living on autopilot. I was in a marriage that was not right for me. I was in a career that was not right for me.

[Reshma Sajani]

What were you doing?

[Shannon Watts]

I wanted to be an investigative journalist. It's why I went to college. But because I married so young and had kids so young, I had to pay the bills. And so I became a public relations executive, which is sort of the dark side of investigative journalism. And look, I enjoyed it and I learned things and it was important, but I really had struggled for a long time to figure out what. Who was I and what did I want? And it was, you know, this horrific, tragic shooting in this country that helped me figure that out because I felt so strongly that there was a moral clarity to getting off the sidelines. So I can remember that day in 2012. At the time, I was taking a five year break from my career to blend my new family of five kids. And I was at the tail end of that. I was actually getting ready to go back to work. And as a PR executive, probably, yeah, I was burnishing my resume. And I'm sure, like you, that day is etched in my mind. You know, I was folding laundry. It was a very cold day in Indiana. And I looked at the TV and there was this breaking news that there was an active shooter in Connecticut. And I sat down on the side of my bed, stopped what I was doing, spent the rest of the day just sobbing and disbelieving what was playing out in the school. And somewhere during the night, that sadness became abject rage. I just woke up the next day and I couldn't do nothing. I had to do something. And so Facebook was very popular in 2012 with middle aged moms and women. And I, I didn't have a focus group, so I started a page and I called it One Million Moms for Gun Control.

[Reshma Sajani]

You literally just woke up the next morning. Does. Does something come to you in your sleep? Because I feel like sometimes like these ideas, like, what do you think happened in those 24 hours while you're sleeping? Right, that you came up with this idea?

[Shannon Watts]

I was so angry and I didn't know what to do with myself. And I didn't, in Indiana, a red state, have a community of fellow moms and women who felt the same way I did necessarily. I hadn't created that women who shared my values, but I did feel like my Facebook friends did. And I just want to be clear, I had 75 Facebook friends. I was not a social media phenom, but those 75 people, many of whom I did not know but just met through Facebook, including women I went to high school with, they felt like I did.

[Reshma Sajani]

Right?

[Shannon Watts]

And they started sharing that with other women who felt like we did. Your page.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yep.

[Shannon Watts]

My. This page I created called One Million Moms for gun Control. So I want to be clear, I did not know that One Million Moms was an anti gay group who at the time was trying to get Ellen and DeGeneres not to be their JCPenney spokeswoman. I don't know if you remember that whole saga.

[Reshma Sajani]

I somewhat. I kind of like, you know, it's sparking a memory, but holy shit. Wow.

[Shannon Watts]

And then I got a call from Representative Carolyn McCarthy. I couldn't believe I was on the phone with a congresswoman, and if you remember her story, her son and husband were shot in Long island in New York. And she became a congresswoman because of that.

[Reshma Sajani]

That's right.

[Shannon Watts]

And she. I picked up the phone and she said to me in her New York accent, very gruff, like, we have been waiting for mother and women to organize around this, but we sure as hell aren't gonna do it with you if you call your organization gun control. Because that was a phrase that was, like, verboten right inside the beltway. So we very quickly changed course, and I think within six weeks had changed our name to mom's to man action. But it was one of these moments that happened so much now but hadn't in 2012, which is when something goes viral, it's like lightning in a bottle.

[Reshma Sajani]

And I totally appreciate that. Cause that's exactly, I feel like happened with girls who code. So that's wild. Like, literally, in six weeks, your whole life changes. You're a suburban midd mom, blending your family, doing some laundry, figuring out what your next job is. And now you're, like, thrust into organized. And you had never before mobilized, organized, publicly spoke nothing. Are you scared?

[Shannon Watts]

Oh, I am terrified. I. I'm I'm 100% sure in every fiber of my being that this is the right idea and the right time. In fact, the night I started the page, my husband and I went to bed, and the response had been so overwhelming, both positive from women who wanted to help and negative from people who wanted to kill me, that we went to bed that night, my husband looked at me and said, like, this is going to be a very big deal. And he didn't say that in a good way. It was like, our lives are about to be upended. At the same time, I never imagined I would be a public figure. So my cell phone was available, my email was available, my home address was available. That was good for the women who were calling and saying, how do I do this where I live? It was very bad for the threats of death and sexual assault that I was getting to me and to my kids immediately.

[Reshma Sajani]

Right.

[Shannon Watts]

I never imagined. I mean, I realize I sound naive, but I just didn't think that this issue was as polarizing as it was. I'm glad for that naivete in retrospect, but it was very, very overwhelming. Not just having to manage and create an organization and bring new people into it, all perfect strangers from across the country, but also with the threat of violence constantly hanging over my head. I mean, there was a pickup truck that kept idling outside of my house, clearly found my address and was trying to intimidate me. And I called the police in Indiana, and the local officer came over and I told him the whole thing and what was happening and just, could he keep a closer eye on my house? And he said, well, this is what you get when you mess with the second Amendment, ma' am.

[Reshma Sajani]

Made sure that made you feel real safe.

[Shannon Watts]

Well, it was. It was clear that I was going to either have to back down or double down.

[Reshma Sajani]

And you decide to double down.

[Shannon Watts]

Yeah. I mean, I just don't like being intimidated or silenced. And I kind of knew, and I knew that other volunteers felt the same way, that if we lost our children, we had nothing left to lose. And we had watched all these shooting tragedies, from Columbine to Virginia Tech to the Gabby Gifford shooting. We'd watch them happen over and over again with absolutely no action from Congress.

[Reshma Sajani]

Right.

[Shannon Watts]

So they wouldn't act this time.

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[Reshma Sajani]

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[Shannon Watts]

That is a great question. Look, I think I was uniquely suited to start Moms Demand Action because I had spent over a decade creating brands, shaping narratives, telling stories, media, training people. There was something that I brought to the table. That was unique. That was the only skill set I had. To be clear, as you said, I didn't know anything about gun violence. I knew very little about the legislative process. I didn't know anything about organizing. I was very grateful that those other women brought those skills to the table. Perfect strangers from across the country who said, I'm an organizer, I'm a website developer, I'm a lawyer. Whatever it was, they came together and said, I want to help because this issue is so important to me. That was a very unique situation because there had just been this shooting tragedy, I think, and I talk about this in my book, like, what is the formula for you? What are your abilities? What are your values, and what are your desires? Some people come into mom's demand action, and maybe they're an accountant and their kid has gone through a lockdown drill, and they think, how can I get involved? I can do data entry. And then they get a baby step in, and they realize, oh, I can do data entry, and I can do it really well. And I bring value to this organization. And now I have this huge supportive community. Maybe I could be the chapter leader. And then they become the chapter leader. And they think, you know, when I meet with lawmakers, I'm as smart and caring, as concerned as they are, maybe I could be a lawmaker. And they run for office, and suddenly they are sitting on the other side of the desk, right? That is the journey of how this happens. So if you are someone who's listening and you're thinking, I'm really passionate about X subject, what do I do? It may be starting an organization, and that organization may be in your neighborhood, it may be in your state, it may be nationwide, or maybe that's not how you want to engage. Maybe you're the data entry lead, but that doesn't make it less valuable. You know, I don't think the point is if you don't start an organization, it's not worth doing. The point is what Alice Walker says, which is activism is the rent I pay to live on the planet. And I. I can't afford to sort of sit on the sidelines. I mean, is that the. Is. What is your thinking about this?

[Reshma Sajani]

I love what you just said because it's so tangible, which is like. Because you. Because I think what happens is people get so overwhelmed with, like, starting the thing or joining the thing. Like, I'm sure you hear this all the time right now. Oh, my God, I'm so upset with what's happening in the world. What Do I do? And people get so overwhelmed. Cause they think the thing that they have to do is just too big for them to do it, so then they don't do anything. And I love what you're saying, which is like, actually, maybe the thing that you do is do the thing you're already doing in your life. You're an accountant, you're a lawyer, you're a teacher, right? And do that for an existing organization or an existing issue that you care about. And when you say that, I'm sure everyone's listening right now saying, oh, I can do that. Like, that's really, really, really manageable. So I absolutely love that. I also think the other thing is, is that what I loved about what you've built, too, is that you're taking, like, you know, I'm thinking about my own kids in my school, which I love. It's almost like you're asking people to get engaged in their own house, in their own community. And you kind of know how to do that, right? And it, again, it doesn't feel as daunting, but it's. It's what's more important now than ever before. Like, I tell people with childcare, it's like, start at your company. You know, I mean, or dni, like, yeah, I am so mad that they are dismantling pipeline programs. I'm so mad we're not passing affordable childcare. But I don't even need you to go to Washington. I need you to go to your office or go to your company and be like, don't do that. Or build or create this. So I just. I actually think we need to be directing people to be a lot more micro and a lot more local.

[Shannon Watts]

You said two things that I think are really important. So the first is that people are often overwhelmed, particularly women, right? And we're so loaded down with obligations and shoulds that we can't kind of pursue our desires, let alone the things that we're passionate about, maybe activism. But there's another piece to it, which is. And I've seen this over and over again in myself and other women, which is a fear of failure. If we can't cross all the T's and all the I's, we don't want to do it because we, God forbid, we might fail. And we have to get over that, right? You know, men lose all the time from good guys like Beto o' Rourke to bad guys like Elon Musk. You know, they fail upward. They fail. And they get all these different offers to continue to Be at the forefront, God love them. But women fail, and they become this living, breathing example of what it means to be fail, and they're expected to sort of disappear and go off, you know, into the ether. So that's one thing is that failure is feedback. To win the next time, we have to stop looking at it as limiting. The other thing that I think is important is you talked about local activity. Right when I started Moms Demand Action, we thought, okay, we're going to pass federal legislation, then we are all going to go back to our normal lives. This will take two months. If you go back to 2013, a few months after the Sandy Hook school shooting, there was bipartisan legislation put forward, the Manchin Toomey bill. It would have closed the background check loophole in honor of this tragedy. And I was sitting in the Senate gallery when it failed by a handful of votes, including some Democratic senators. And I realize I shouldn't have been shocked, but I was, because I didn't know anything about what I was doing. And it was very clear after that happened that we were not going to go back to our normal lives. We were going to have to pivot and start doing this work in city councils and state houses and school boards, because that is where you build a momentum to eventually get the right Congress and the right president to follow suit. And the other thing I want to say is sometimes we are so in our own bubble. You know, when I look back at Moms to Man Action, I got involved in gun violence prevention because of a school shooting. School shootings in mass shootings are about 1% of the gun violence in this country, and they're horrific. Yeah, but I was ignoring the constant gun violence that was happening 30 miles from my home every single day. And so community work is such important work, because you probably don't know your community as well as you think you do, but you know it better than you know anything else. And you can make such an incredible impact.

[Reshma Sajani]

You know, I love this quote you have, is that women in midlife are the backbone of most grassroots movements. We show up, we organize, we persist. I love that you say that, because I think people's perception is that activism is a young person's game.

[Shannon Watts]

We could do a whole podcast about this. I think it is so important for young people to be involved in activism. I think they push the rest of society in the right direction. It is so important to always have that constant pressure about, you could do better, you could do it more quickly. Why aren't you constantly trying to make things Better. I get that pressure and it's important. But there is an intolerance often among young people for incrementalism. It's like a dirty word. But incrementalism is what leads to revolutions. And women understand that intuitively. If you have children, it is all about incrementalism, right?

[Reshma Sajani]

It so is.

[Shannon Watts]

And when I think about our volunteer population, I mean, look, there's a reason, if you go back to Prohibition, that men wanted women to get involved in activism for the first time in America because temperance was seen as a Christian value and they could never put that toothpaste back in the tube. Women were like, oh, activism, this is important to us. We want to be able to, you know, fight for our rights and for others rights. And so if you look at, you know, everything from the civil rights movement all the way up to the water crisis in Flint, Michigan, it's always women, often black women and women of color who are on the front line of activism. And that was no different with Moms to Man Action. And, you know, young women would come into the organization often because their kids in preschool were doing lockdown drills and they engage in something called naptivism. Our volunteer came up with this, this idea of making calls and sending emails during nap time.

[Reshma Sajani]

During nap time. That's great.

[Shannon Watts]

And then I would say all the way up to retirees. I mean, our most dependable, most productive volunteers were women who had free time because they were retired and they were older.

[Reshma Sajani]

But can I ask you a question? So. So I feel like I had an aha moment this year where I was like, I am probably gonna die with less rights than I was born with. And as you know. Cause I know you're. I mean, we have sacrificed a lot. Our health, our kids, our family. I got no life. You know what I mean? I mean, this work is such a blessing, but it comes with a lot. Cause you don't get to turn it off like I am. We eat, live, sleep, sleep, breathe. Making the world better, changing the lives of women. So when you combine that sacrifice with the fact that you are like, oh, we're, we're probably not going to win, but that's, that's our job. You fight to fight, right? Like we are sitting on the shoulders of our ancestors who also did the same thing. How did, how have you reconciled that? Because some people could look at this, be like, ah, no, I'm out. You know what I mean? Like, it's too much sacrifice for knowing that I might not actually get there. And why, I ask you, that is Cause yeah, I see these older women and they have this, like, almost beautific serenity and understanding that we're probably not gonna win, but they're still working their asses off.

[Shannon Watts]

I think, again, it comes back to embracing incrementalism, this idea that even small wins and sometimes that means not that you passed a good bill, but you stopped a bad bill. You know, things that people don't see that it's worth the fight. And I also think that I saw it this way and a lot of the women in Mom's domain action see it this way, which is you are building a foundation. If I look at Virginia, you know, if you had told me in 2012 that Virginia would eventually be a blue state with gun safety laws, I would have said, you're out of your mind. We were having to follow the Democratic senator Mark Warner to house parties and corner him because he was an A rated NRA legislator and he was voting for things like concealed carry reciprocity. Right. And so I just never imagined that politics was so cyclical. But when you're involved in it, when you're in the weeds, you realize it is that eventually the tides will change and you want to be ready to act on it when it does. So what we did in Virginia is not only did we finally get the senators there, Kaine and Warner, to have Fs from the NRA, we also helped flip all three branches of the legislature there in 2019 because we outspent the NRA to be a gun sense majority. We passed over a dozen good gun laws. We had that foundation put in place. We had this huge chapter that was ready to make a difference. We elected gun sense champions. As soon as we flipped those chambers, we went in and passed laws. What happened? A Republican was elected four years later. He hasn't been able to undo a single one of those laws. Right. So you could say if you were fighting on the ground right now, you can't win or you won't win or it's going backward. But if you're in the weeds, you see that this is all an incremental plan.

[Reshma Sajani]

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[Shannon Watts]

Midlife I'm Hasan Minhaj and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren. Is America too dumb for democracy? Outrageous parenting expert Dr. Becky how do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath?

[Reshma Sajani]

That's a good question.

[Shannon Watts]

Listen to Hasan Minhaj Doesn't Know from Lemonada Media Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hi there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. This fall my podcast Wiser Than Me is back for season three with even more wisdom straight from some legendary old ladies. These chickadees have a lot to teach us. Every word is a lesson in living unapologetically and and focusing on the stuff that really matters From Lemonada Media. Wiser Than Me Season 3 out now. Find it wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe to Lemonada Premium in the Apple Podcasts app and listen to every episode of Season three ad free.

[Reshma Sajani]

I'm Josh Mankiewicz and I hope you'll.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Join us for season four of Dateline Missing in America.

[Reshma Sajani]

In each episode of Dateline's award winning series, we will focus on one missing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Persons case and hear from the families, the friends and the investigators, all desperate to find them.

[Shannon Watts]

You will want to listen closely.

[Reshma Sajani]

Maybe you could help investigators solve a mystery. Dateline Missing in America. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts, but I want to have your book, because why'd you pick this idea? And what does it mean to be fired up? And three, tell me about the metaphor of the fire.

[Shannon Watts]

Well, you know, I took a bunch of books to a friend who's an author's house, and I said, this is what I'm thinking about writing. What do you think? And she looked at me and she said, I think these books are very boring. You are a fiery person with a very fiery personality. And it was like an aha moment that fire was the metaphor. And it worked perfectly for the book because what I'm talking about are women who are firestarters. And what is that? That is a woman who decides she's not just going to fulfill her obligations, she's also going to follow her desires. I talked about how age 41, everything came together for me, and that was the formula. What are my values? What are my abilities? What are my desires? And when those marry, there's like an alchemy. It feels like magic. Working with mom's man action and other volunteers felt like touching the divine. And the book felt the same way to me. It's this formula that you can put in your life and practice over and over again, understanding you're going to fail, but continuing to try to do that so that you are a fire starter. And, you know, the most common deathbed regret is that you don't live a life that's authentic to you. And when women are living in the system, we start to believe our obligations are our desires. We want to be happy, we want to have a purpose. We want to be busy. These are things the system tells us are fulfillment, but they're really not, because they're not for us. They're for other people. And so the idea is, what would my life be like if I just went through the world wondering, what do I want now? What do others need for me? What do others want? But what do I want?

[Reshma Sajani]

What do you want?

[Shannon Watts]

What I want is to burn. I want to live a life that is full of fulfillment. And yes, I know I have obligations and there are other things that I have committed to, but I don't want to do that at the expense of leaving a legacy.

[Reshma Sajani]

But does that mean. Because you just said you're a Buddhist and I'm very spiritual, does that mean Living a life, because there are some people who choose to live in a forest. And literally, I actually envy. I'm like, I wish I could do that. Right. Just focus on getting that deep connection with God. Focus on silencing the ego. Right. That is like one way of being fulfilled. Another way of being fulfilled, which I know, I think the both of us sit in, is like doing purposeful work. So how do you figure out what that is for you?

[Shannon Watts]

That is what the entire book is about. Yes.

[Reshma Sajani]

All right, so read your book, and then you will give you this path. Right.

[Shannon Watts]

But here's the thing. So what I think is really exciting is, you know, as women, you're almost in your 50s. I'm in my 50s. We hear a lot right now in the Zeitgeist about what amazing things women are doing. You know, your podcast, all these other podcasts and conversations about the amazing things women are doing post menopause. But I wanted to talk about the. How. How do these women become fire starters? And that doesn't have to be starting an organization. You know, that might be finally going to therapy or having a tough conversation or asking for a promotion. It doesn't have to be this huge thing. But I met so many women who had brilliant ideas or desires that they wanted to fulfill, and they just felt afraid of the blowback that would come. And so this is very much a handbook. You know, what can you expect when you decide to pursue your desires? How do you push through that messy middle? How do you find your people? That's a huge part of this, right? Creating a community. And then how do you keep doing it over and over again until the end of your life? You know, I interviewed over 70 women for this book, and the stories are amazing. You know?

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, tell me your. One of the. Tell me one of the stories that blew you away.

[Shannon Watts]

I'll tell you two really quickly. So one is a woman named Amber Goodwin, and she was rejected by 18 law schools right out of college. And then she went into a work, and she basically did legislative work in Congress. Donald Trump was elected in 2016. She's like, if this man can be elected, I can try again to get into law school. She got in at 40 years old.

[Reshma Sajani]

Wow.

[Shannon Watts]

She graduates from law school, she becomes the first black president of her law school. And now her fulfillment comes from getting other women of color into law schools across the country. Another woman named Carol Frick had always wanted to be a writer. She ended up having to be a gym teacher to pay the bills. She loved her career. But when it was over after 30 years. She volunteered in an animal shelter. And she came up the idea one day of writing a book about a couple who falls in love in an animal shelter. She goes home, she teaches herself how to write a book, how to create dialogue, like all of the things it takes to do research and to write an actual novel. And then she decides, you know, I deserve more than to self publish. I want to be published. She sent her manuscript to 218 publishing companies. She finally got a deal the 219th time and became a writer in her 70s.

[Reshma Sajani]

Wow.

[Shannon Watts]

These are the stories, you know, of women who pushed through and continued to ask themselves that question of what do I want?

[Reshma Sajani]

One of the things I found in your book that was very common was that a lot of these women had to try and try and try and try again and really get comfortable with failure. And I think that's a hard thing sometimes. Like when do you know when to give up and when do you know when to keep going for it? Did any. Did this book and all the women that you interviewed, did you learn anything about how people can tell the difference? Cause I think telling the difference is really important.

[Shannon Watts]

I think failure is not a sign that you should quit. It's giving you feedback to learn how to win the next time. In fact, at Moms to Man Action, you know, when you take on the most powerful, wealthy special interest that's ever existed, you don't expect to win all the time. We knew we would lose and we didn't want to lose volunteers because we lost. And so we reframed every loss as losing forward. What did I do this time when I lost to win the next time. Maybe you grew your chapter, maybe you have more relationships with lawmakers, whatever that was. We're going to celebrate what was really a win. And I think we can use that same information in our own lives. You know, I tell the story of a woman in the book named Becca De Felice. And she was one of a very few people who are Asian American and have run for a seat in the state house in Texas. And she ran two times. She was a mom's actual volunteer. Decided she was one of those women who decided she would be better on the other side of the desk. And. And she lost both times. And she said that people felt such shame on her behalf, as if she should disappear and go away. And what she did was to take the experience from losing those two races and become the executive director of Emerge in Texas. So now she trains other women on how to run for office and win.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah. And how not to let it set you back when you do that.

[Shannon Watts]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Reshma Sajani]

That's so powerful. So let me ask you a question. How does being in midlife help us with our pursuit of pursuing the fire?

[Shannon Watts]

I mean, I don't know about you, but I know who I am finally.

[Reshma Sajani]

I do, too.

[Shannon Watts]

I know all the good and the bad, and I'm not going to give up working on the bad for sure. But I do know what my strengths and my weaknesses are. And I feel later in life like I have the right to pursue the things that light me up. And, you know, I just think it's so important that we, as women, think about the legacy we're leaving. Anything we put our energy into is a legacy. Doesn't mean you've started a philanthropy or your name is on the side of a building. It just means that you left behind a life that was authentic to you, that you burned. And that is such a good example. You know, we touched on this earlier. I interviewed, as I said, all these women, and do you know what most mothers said they were worried their deathbed regret would be?

[Reshma Sajani]

Did they need to spend enough time.

[Shannon Watts]

With their kids that focusing on what they were passionate about would take time away from their kids. I don't know how you feel about this because your kids are younger, but I'm on the other side of that chasm. And I can promise you, none of my kids say to me, I can't believe you didn't go to that play in 2006. I can't believe you missed that soccer game in 2008. They all say, number one, I'm so grateful you had something else to focus on besides my homework and my life. And number two, you set an example me to follow my desires and to pursue what I want.

[Reshma Sajani]

I think that's right. I mean, look, I think the thing about being a mom, which I'm so grateful for, is, like, my kids make me present. Right? Like, I. There's. I'm so mastered the art of doing so many things at the same time. I mean, it's funny. I did this commencement speech on Sunday that I was just like, been working on for months, and it was a brave speech. And I finish it standing ovation. Like, I feel good, but then it's like, I'm on to the next thing. Right? Like, and we don't take these moments often, sometimes to just celebrate and be in the moment. Where I am able to do that is with my children, which is why I love my family and I love being with them. Because I can just be in the moment of, like, fun, you know, fun family tennis or, like, you know what I mean? Making cookies together or just telling me about why you don't wanna go to school dance. Right. Like, I can just be fully present. And I think motherhood allows me to do that.

[Shannon Watts]

Well, just wait till they're teens and.

[Reshma Sajani]

They don't wanna ever talk to me after that.

[Shannon Watts]

Then you'll really have all the freedom to pursue your desires.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yeah, I'm a little ways away from that. Not too far, but enough. So, any final advice, Shannon, in, like, what you would tell to women in pursuing their dream. Cause what I love about this book and I love about you and your story is this idea that it's never. I can't tell you how many women I meet where they feel like I'm 50 and if I didn't do the thing, it's just too late. I hear it all the time. I'm like, honey, you are just getting started. So. Yeah. What?

[Shannon Watts]

Yes, I interview people who have become doctors, you know, in their 50s, and who have pursued all these amazing things that they always wanted to do and didn't have time to do. And so it is not too late. And I also hear, you know, why me? I don't have a story to tell, or no one wants to listen to me, or I don't have the abilities or skills. And none of that that is true. It is all something we hear externally and that we have internalized and become our voice. I had someone say to me, you know, I just. I would like to do these things. I just had a wish I had a handbook to help me figure out how to get through it. That's exactly what this is. And I think the most important advice I can give other women is to say the size and the amount of fires that you are able to build is directly proportional to the amount of blowback you are willing and able to withstand. Like, you are going to have to get comfortable making other people uncomfortable. That doesn't mean you're going to get threats of death and sexual violence like I did. But it may mean someone in the pickup line makes a snarky comment about, oh, I saw you weren't at softball practice. Right. And. And instead of taking that in as guilt or shame, realizing that the blowback is predictable and none of it is personal.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yep. And that allows you to choose what you wanna do for you. I often think when you were talking, I was thinking about my kids. Cause I think the first blowback I get is Mommy, wait, why are you going there? Do you have to go to the Beyonce concert tonight? Like, don't you wanna be with me? And so the first place where you're navigating, putting yourself first, is often at home. And I find that that is the hardest for us.

[Shannon Watts]

It is. But I interviewed Eliza Pressman, who's an amazing child psychologist, for my book. Cause I wanted to talk about this trap that we, you know, we, we are obligated to be around our kids 24 hours a day. And she is so clear to say this is a process and your children are gonna leave. And you have to be ready too, because the pressure you put on your kids when they think they're your whole world isn't good for anyone. It causes so much suffering. And so start preparing now for what's next.

[Reshma Sajani]

Yep. All right. Well, on that, thank you so much, everybody. Get your her incredible book. It was such an awesome read and I even feel, as someone who lives by handbook, like it taught me some things that I'm gonna implement in my life. So thank you.

[Shannon Watts]

Thank you. Reshwa.

[Reshma Sajani]

Shannon's book is called five fired up. How to turn your spark into a flame and come alive at any age. As I said, I loved it and I highly recommend it. One last thing, thank you for listening to my so Called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like more from me and Shannon talking about stepping away from organizations we founded. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple podcasts or for all other podcasts apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host, Reshma Sajani. Our associate producer is Isara Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oja Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this [e-mail] midlife follow my so called midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye. Hey, I'm Nicole Norfleet.

[Shannon Watts]

And I'm Erin Brown and we work.

[Reshma Sajani]

At the Minnesota Star Tribune and we've got a brand new show called Worth It. Every week we get together with a group of people who know Minnesota inside and out. We skip the Minnesota Nice and get right to the good stuff. We show the stories and the happenings around the state. Worth your time and your money.

[Shannon Watts]

Worth it.

[Reshma Sajani]

From the Minnesota Star Tribune and Lemonada Media every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts. Tired of the same old political shouting matches and talking points?

[Shannon Watts]

Looking for thoughtful conversations that go beyond the headlines and help you understand issues that matter?

[Reshma Sajani]

I'm Sarah. And I'm Beth. Together we host Pantsuit Politics, a podcast.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Where we bring grace, nuance and perspective.

[Reshma Sajani]

To the news because democracy deserves more than hot takes.

[Shannon Watts]

Join us as we approach politics and current events with curiosity, empathy, and a commitment to understanding the bigger picture.

[Reshma Sajani]

If you want to stay informed without the anxiety, we're the show for you.

[Shannon Watts]

New episodes drop on Tuesdays and Fridays. Subscribe to Pantsuit Politics wherever you get your podcast.