← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
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- [00:01]
David Duchovny
Hey everyone, it's David Duchovny. Do you ever feel like a failure? Trust me, I get it. Hell, I've spent my whole life almost feeling like a failure. It's appropriate, though, because on Fail, my new podcast with Lemonada Media, exploring the world of failure, how it holds us back, propels us forward, and ultimately shapes our lives is the whole point. Each week I'll chat with artists, athletes, actors and experts about how our perceived failures have actually been our biggest catalysts for growth, revelation, and even healing. Through these conversations, I hope we can learn how to embrace the opportunity of failure and Fail Better together. Fail Better is out on May 7th. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:50]
Kulab Vilasak and Soo Jin Pak
Hi, I'm Kulab Vilasak. And I'm Soo Jin Pak. And we're your aunties on Add to Cart, a podcast all about the things we buy, the things we buy into, and what that says about who we are. We're real life friends who love to talk about what we're adding to Cart. Sometimes that means trying the latest snail serum to slather on our faces or a sweater that screams one third ugly. That's right, Sue. Each week we dive into honest, oftentimes TMI conversations about what's taking up space in our shopping carts and in our minds, be it products, trends, or something for our auntie book club. We also bring guests on the show and take a peek into their carts because the things a person buys or doesn't says a lot about them. We like to think of ourselves as aunties to all fun, slightly unhinged, and always ready to share some sage advice and a good product wreck. Add to Cart is out now wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:50]
Reshma Sajani
Lemonade.
- [01:55]
Preeti Powell
Legacy is not just about having your kids or what you accomplished in your career. Legacy is also the impact that you've been able to have in your community. I'm totally going through my midlife crisis, so I've been like thinking about these things. And so for me, when I think of legacy and if tomorrow is not guaranteed, what are people going to say? For me, what's going to be important is I was able to touch someone's life and I don't have kids. So it's not just limited to my husband and my parents and my, you know, my family members, but it's also, frankly, a lot of the women in my life. But also there are some amazing guys in my life too. So I'm Preeti Powell. I am in my mid-40s and I work in the advertising tech industry. During the Pandemic moved To Florida. I'm originally, I was originally in the San Francisco Bay area for the last like 15 years of my adult life. And I feel like I've had a little bit of depression being so far away. I need my community. I think that midlife, it's like you enter into your 40s and 50s and you're almost like this forgotten about demographic. When you are not around each other and your responsibilities increase, you do sometimes feel a bit alone or detached from your community. And that's why it's such a focus for me this year in 2024, but going into 2025. So I do these 15 minute meetings with my friends. Whenever you get 15 minutes, just catch up with each other, you know, share the quick updates. If there's a particular topic and if that we haven't been able to address, then we schedule time to connect again. It does come off a little bit business like, but it has been so effective. And instead of delaying conversations because you're like, oh my God, this is going to be an hour conversation. If I call my friend now, you know that the expectation is met. And so then it's easier to both people to commit to it. So by making these small, active efforts, I have found just happiness.
- [04:01]
Reshma Sajani
Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. Oh my God, I love this advice so much. Thank you, Preeti and all the midlifers who have been part of this podcast community since it started in October. I am learning so much from you. We have literally collected like hundreds of voicemails from you guys and I listened to them all the time. To just one, sometimes not feel as alone, to feel like there's somebody else that's thinking exactly what I'm thinking or to just be inspired by you. I love to hear about the things you're doing that are just bringing you joy. Like your college girls trip that you take every single year. Or the fact that you're taking standup comedy in your midlife because you just want to feel a little alive. Or how excited you are that your best friend is finally leaving that asshole husband of hers. This is the community that I have always wanted, that I've always dreamed of building. It's why I started this show. And it's working. Like when I listen to Preethi, I know it's working because this community made her and made me feel like I'm not the only one. And as I'm closing out 2024. I know I've been thinking a lot about what my friendships are gonna look like in 2025. And I think it's like a really good New Year's resolution. And it's one that I'm making. I know so many of us feel tired right now. I'm sure you can hear this cold. You can hear it in my voice, right? But I am taking that great advice from Preeti. We gotta check in with our people because you know what? Like, I know we all need a big lift right now. We're all busy, and sometimes it just takes a quick how are you? To just turn the day around. And with that, I am so excited to introduce today's guest. She is a true legend in building community. Gloria Steinem has been fighting the good fight for longer than we've been alive. She's a famed journalist, an organizer, an activist, and I knew she could offer us midlifers some real good advice on how to stay connected to the people we love in 2025. So she doesn't travel that much these days. So what she does is she opens up her home to groups of women. I have been several times. And we come, we sit around a cozy living room, half of us on the floor, and we just talk and we share, and we sit in this circle and we share what's on our mind, share what we're afraid of, share what we're excited about. And we make new friends and we hold each other's dreams. And I've been able, like I said, to be a part of this a couple of times now. And it's just every time, it's so powerful and just so beautiful. It makes me realize, like, this is what humans are meant to do. We're meant to come together with one another and break bread and be vulnerable. Gloria is here to help us look back at 2024 and help us think about how we can find more community in 2025.
- [07:34]
Gloria Steinem
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- [09:58]
Reshma Sajani
Hi Gloria, how are you feeling post election?
- [10:03]
Gloria Steinem
Well, what can I say? I did not intend to spend my adulthood looking at Donald Trump.
- [10:11]
Reshma Sajani
Oh my God. I don't think any of us right intended to spend our adulthood looking at Donald Trump.
- [10:17]
Gloria Steinem
I think we in New York understand better what a jerk he is because we've been exposed to him for longer. Right?
- [10:26]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah. Thank you Gloria, so much for your time and I'm so grateful and I'm so excited and thrilled to be having this conversation with you.
- [10:33]
Gloria Steinem
No, it's great to see you.
- [10:34]
Reshma Sajani
Okay, so Gloria, this show is about midlife and as you know, midlife encompasses like a long range of years. So from 35 to 65. And I'm wondering, as someone who is kind of past this time in their life, what do you feel was, like, the most transformative thing that you learned about midlife?
- [10:57]
Gloria Steinem
First, that I didn't even know the term midlife. So I was just living my life from day to day, and There were differences. Ms. Magazine was still part of my life. The Ms. Foundation was. And now they're off independently on their own. And also, I probably realized that there were a whole population of women and also men who weren't living in the way that when I was growing up, we were told we had to live, which was to get married, have children, you know, live in a particular way that especially in Manhattan or in New York City in general, you could choose the way you wanted to live.
- [11:54]
Reshma Sajani
Right. You know, as, you know, a lot of people are discouraged, you know, with the outcome of the election and what the next four years will bring. I saw the Broadway show Suffs, and it really, like, changed my perspective as, you know, as someone who's also been fighting for women and girls, being like, you know, it may not happen in my lifetime, but the fight is still worth fighting for. And every time I'm around you, you give us so much. You have so much hope. You know, you'll be around all of us. We're crying. You know, I was devastated. Like, what are we gonna do? And it's like, you have so much hope.
- [12:33]
Gloria Steinem
Well, you know, because I have always been a freelancer and not employed in the traditional way, I probably have the luxury myself of being more equal or at least not dictated to by employment policies somewhere. So it's not that I'm smarter, it's just that I'm in a different situation. But also remember that hope is a form of planning. If we don't hope for something different, we've given up already.
- [13:10]
Reshma Sajani
That's powerful. Hope is a form of planning. Is that the pep talk you would say to our listeners? Like, we need to hope in order to kind of plan?
- [13:20]
Gloria Steinem
Yeah, but that may be. Yes, I would certainly say that. But it might be a little amorphous because we also need to ask each other, where would you like to be in five years and how can I help? Or here are groups that can help, or, you know, that's what movements are for, to help each other.
- [13:40]
Reshma Sajani
And how do you find the rest, though? Because I must say, as someone who has been. I led my first march when I was 13, so I've been, like, in the struggle for. I'm 49 now, and the fight never ends, right? Because we haven't achieved what we want to achieve yet. And I do a bad job of resting. So. How do you rest?
- [14:05]
Gloria Steinem
Well, you need to understand that to preserve yourself as an asset to the movement, you need to take care of your health. You need to go to movies, listen to music, see your friends, you know, whatever it is that re energizes you.
- [14:24]
Reshma Sajani
I think that's one of the biggest lessons I feel like I've learned from you and in speaking to you over the years is this idea that. The idea of fun. Right. Because I think if you're constantly feeling like activism or fighting or progress is just a slog and it's exhausting and it just beats you down, then it's hard to stay in it. But your approach of it being fun and inspiring, I think it's just. It's so important.
- [14:52]
Gloria Steinem
Well, that was the approach of the Civil Rights movement and is the approach of the Civil Rights movement. It's. I mean, think of all the art forms and jokes and songs and, you know, that come out of movements. It's. Movements aren't just against. They're also, for you are a natural resource for the movement. And we need to take care of you, and you need to take care of yourself.
- [15:26]
Reshma Sajani
What do you do to take care of you, Gloria?
- [15:30]
Gloria Steinem
Well, let's see. I mean, in my way, you know, because I don't have children, I'm responsible for. So I only have to survive economically myself. I watch. Anything with a narrative is very seductive. A story. In my case, since I wanted to dance my way out of Toledo into the hearts of American shows like Dance Moms.
- [16:05]
Reshma Sajani
I love that show. It's so good.
- [16:06]
Gloria Steinem
Yeah. Are kind of rejuvenating. But I think it's mainly remembering that we're communal animals and we can't exist for long alone. Making sure that we meet with friends who, however different we may be, have similar hopes.
- [16:28]
Reshma Sajani
Can I ask you something? Do you have any New Year's rituals that you do to reset or is like. I always do. I kind of do an assessment of what happened the year before. Write down kind of how close or far I got, and then set new goals and my husband and I exchanged them. Do you have anything like that?
- [16:44]
Gloria Steinem
No, I wish I did. I think that sounds very enlightened and wonderful. I mean, in my life, New Year's Eve was, in the first instance, just a time to worry about having a date.
- [17:00]
Reshma Sajani
And now it's still probably worrying about having a date.
- [17:05]
Gloria Steinem
Yeah. I don't. It's not a. For whatever reason, I didn't catch the tradition of using New Year's as a marker.
- [17:17]
Reshma Sajani
You know, one of the things that I loved about the last time we were together was this idea of, like, what your home represents. I've been there a couple of times and been there in this circle of women at different moments, helping one another, talking about one another. I'm coming back on Monday. What is your home as a sanctuary meant for you?
- [17:40]
Gloria Steinem
Well, it's been very important to me because my generation of women rarely had such a sanctuary on their own. Mostly it was dependent on husbands and children. And, I mean, wasn't it Virginia Woolf who wrote A Room of One's Own? I mean, it's always been very important to have some space that belonged to us, and that's more common now.
- [18:14]
Reshma Sajani
Can you tell the story about the circle and what the circle means?
- [18:19]
Gloria Steinem
Well, first of all, the circle means that we are equally connected, unlike a hierarchical structure. So it's very important and transformative just to sit in a circle as opposed to at a boardroom table. That spells hierarchy, I believe, on this continent. And Native American culture always been the way of organizing. I remember a circle in my living room where you were, where Wilma Mankiller, who was chief of the Cherokee Nation, came to visit. And we, of course, thought we had somewhat invented a talking circle. And she listened to us for a while and said, well, when we have our talking circles, we have a feather that we pass from one person to the next. So, you know, when you have the power to speak, I mean, we've reinvented the ancient.
- [19:25]
Reshma Sajani
It's so powerful. And there's something about the circle, I know, as I've been there in your home, that just. I've seen people cry. I've seen people share, like, their deepest vulnerabilities. I've seen ideas being transformed.
- [19:38]
Gloria Steinem
So, yes, I mean, we are communal animals. There's a reason why universally around the world, solitary confinement is the biggest punishment. You know, we are communal. We need each other.
- [19:52]
Reshma Sajani
And maybe as an inspiration for all of our listeners as we're going into 2025, that we can create our own community circles. Maybe that's the hope.
- [20:01]
Gloria Steinem
Yes, absolutely. And, you know, it doesn't have to be scientific. You can just ask people who are interested and some will stay and some won't and, you know, just let it happen. Honestly, with spontaneity.
- [20:34]
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- [20:45]
Reshma Sajani
I'm getting to where I want to be. I'm in such a good place right now and I'm very confident that I'm going to be able to continue this weight loss, this journey, and really make a true lifestyle change.
- [20:57]
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- [21:01]
Gloria Steinem
I really am starting to feel better.
- [21:04]
Reshma Sajani
Like I feel a lot lighter.
- [21:06]
Gloria Steinem
I feel a lot happier. I feel a lot more confident.
- [21:09]
Reshma Sajani
I just feel a lot more like myself.
- [21:12]
Gloria Steinem
I don't feel so bogged down every day.
- [21:14]
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- [21:35]
Reshma Sajani
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- [23:26]
Gloria Steinem
I never said to myself, hello, I'm not going to have kids. I just realized that at that particular time I was living in London. I was on my way to India, where I stayed for two years. I could not and did not want to have children. But it wasn't a final decision. And I think life is not one big decision. It's like a series of understandings.
- [23:56]
Reshma Sajani
What did you think about as you got older, becoming a mother?
- [24:00]
Gloria Steinem
I have come to understand that probably because I was a child looking after my mother who wasn't well, that I got a vision of caregiving that was off putting and also not realistic. I mean, I was a child looking after a grownup. But that I'm sure had a big influence. I've never regretted it, not for a moment.
- [24:29]
Reshma Sajani
You had said once that you didn't get married when you were young because the culture, I'm quoting the culture then said once you got married, that was the last choice you could make. Then after that, your husband's career or your children's needs really dictated your life. And I think a lot of women are still fighting this notion. And I know that you believe that the lack of democracy begins in the family, that this idea that women should be at home, you know, doing the caretaking. I think we saw kind of the culture of that perception of traditional motherhood really play out also in this election. Do you have any more like, how have you seen this idea about the role of women, whether it's in marriage, you mean, play out throughout the years as we've been fighting for equality?
- [25:19]
Gloria Steinem
Well, I think we've realized more and more there is no role. There's an individual, unique human being who may have shared vulnerabilities because there's more violence against women than there is against men, at least in sexual violence. But that does not mean that we are a group and we share our humanity. Hopefully we share empathy with each other. You know, democracy, we have all those hopes, but each person is also unique.
- [26:04]
Reshma Sajani
One of the things that, as you know, I'm working on at Moms first is really about getting affordable child care and universal childcare. Do you remember the story kind of 50 years ago about the first fight for childcare? And is there anything you can share about that moment that you remember?
- [26:23]
Gloria Steinem
You know, I experienced it mainly as a reporter. We had started New York magazine and there was a pioneering first early childcare center near my house in Manhattan. So I went to write about it. It was run by Dorothy Pittman Hughes who became my dear friend and speaking partner. And it became more evident to me that we were not a very well developed country because we behaved as if children were born in kindergarten or in first grade or whatever. You know, being with her and speaking and wandering around the country educated me. And sometimes very simple things. I mean, I individually or we together, would be addressing a large audience, and a woman with a baby would start to leave because the baby was crying. And we would just say, please don't leave. You know, a baby crying is a wonderful sound. It's something.
- [27:40]
Reshma Sajani
Yes.
- [27:40]
Gloria Steinem
Universal and human. You should not have to leave. And that turned out to be one of the most welcome and revolutionary things we had to say. Never mind equal pay.
- [27:52]
Reshma Sajani
Right, right, right. It's so true.
- [27:55]
Gloria Steinem
Right?
- [27:56]
Reshma Sajani
It's so true. And how do women react when you said that? When you said, no, no, no, you don't have to leave the room. You don't. You can, like, be here in your full self. Did they stay?
- [28:07]
Gloria Steinem
Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely. People would applaud. And a couple of male reporters wrote about it because they found it a relief, too. I mean, it's such a simple thing.
- [28:18]
Reshma Sajani
Right. You know, one of the things, Gloria, I've been thinking about is I've built Girls who Code and the work we're doing now on childcare. I've built so much community and solidarity with women, but I haven't organized as much as maybe I should have or we should with men. What do you think about that? What is the role of men as being part of our sisterhood or community of kind of fighting for the rights that are still left for us to fight for in this moment?
- [28:47]
Gloria Steinem
Well, men need to fight for their own revolution, you know, which means the right to be parents. Often gay male couples may be more engaged in this fight. It depends what people's situation is. But men, of course, have the right to be equal parents and as in other cultures, take paternity leave when a new baby is born, so they also can be home. There was not an immaculate conception. I mean, there are two parents.
- [29:24]
Reshma Sajani
It's so true. And it is. A lot of men I talk to, especially about paid leave, feel like they're gaslit. You know, I mean, from their bosses at work when they say that they want to take time off. So there really is this.
- [29:35]
Gloria Steinem
Well, yeah, so they need to organize. I mean, you know, we'll help.
- [29:39]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah.
- [29:39]
Gloria Steinem
But they need to speak out for their own rights.
- [29:43]
Reshma Sajani
Yeah, it absolutely begins with them. I did want to ask you that as we were organizing, as women were organizing in the 60s and 70s, what were the conversations around paid leave and affordable child care?
- [29:56]
Gloria Steinem
We certainly were calling for childcare centers. And individual groups of women, depending on who their employer was, were also talking about realistic leaves for both women and men, that men also needed to be home when a new baby arrived. And there have been better national examples in Scandinavian countries, for instance.
- [30:27]
Reshma Sajani
That's right. And in fact, in some Scandinavian countries, they're pretty much at equality in terms of the gender ratio of both men and women doing the cognitive labor. Right. And so I think there's a lot of bright spots for progress. Well, Gloria, thank you so much. You are just an inspiration to so many of us. And just I think, especially in times, I think your life, your legacy, the fights that you've been fighting, the community that you've created, the hope, you know, it's just an inspiration. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
- [31:00]
Gloria Steinem
No, well, thank you. And I just want to say this is nothing like a sacrifice. It's fun. It's infinitely engaging.
- [31:10]
Reshma Sajani
Well, with that, I really appreciate you and appreciate your time, Gloria.
- [31:14]
Gloria Steinem
No, thank you. And it's fun to see you even in our limited way here.
- [31:18]
Reshma Sajani
Yes. And I'll see you in a few days. Thank you.
- [31:21]
Gloria Steinem
Okay, thank you.
- [31:35]
Reshma Sajani
Gloria Steinem is an activist, a journalist and a well known feminist. Her work and wisdom have provided me with so much comfort as I had into the New Year. We're taking a break over the holidays. We'll have new episodes of My so Called Midlife in January. Happy New Year, midlifers. I can't wait to see what 2025 has in store for us. There's more of My so Called Midlife with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Midlife Advice that didn't make it into the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts, I'm your host, Reshma Sajani. Our producer is Claire Jones. This series is sound designed by Ivan Karaev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Koraev and performed by Ryan Jewell, Ivan Karaev and Karen Waltok. Additional music by APM Music. Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lepore. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie whittleswax and Jessica Cordova. Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And let let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so called Midlife, wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye. Why, hello there.
- [33:27]
Sarah Silverman
This is your pal Sarah Silverman. You know, the standup comic that's not afraid of a diarrhea joke. Oh my God, I'm so brave. I hope you're enjoying podcast that you're listening to. I am just dropping in here to let you know about another podcast I think you'd like and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week, listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life. Anything, their silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situations. And then I respond, whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead, search for the Sarah Silverman Podcast wherever you get your podcast.
- [34:01]
Reshma Sajani
Bye.
- [34:02]
Alicia Haley
Hi, I'm Alicia Haley.
- [34:04]
Kate Manig
And I'm Kate Manig.
- [34:05]
Alicia Haley
20 years ago, we met playing best friends on the set of the TV show the L Word, which quickly morphed into us being actual best friends for the rest of our lives.
- [34:13]
Kate Manig
Truly, it feels like we're an old married couple, but with fewer cats. Although we each have a number of cats in our lives and we're pretty much inseparable and have more or less zero boundaries.
- [34:23]
Alicia Haley
Hence why we named our podcast Pants. Because at this point, you can't have one leg without the other.
- [34:29]
Kate Manig
And each week we catch up with each other on the big and small things going on in our lives, which then leads to much oversharing and little left to the imagination. Whether it's sex or therapy or money fears, literally nothing is off the table in terms of discussion topics.
- [34:42]
Alicia Haley
Oh, and we also like to talk about that wild ride that was the L Word, you know, the genesis of our friendship.
- [34:48]
Kate Manig
And Pants is out now, wherever you get your podcasts from Lemonada Media.