B (6:59)

I'm 46.

A (7:00)

Oh, my God. So you're really in midlife. So how would. How would you describe this period? Like, do you like it or not? Like it?

B (7:06)

I like it. But I wouldn't say I use the word like. More from a place of knowing exactly what it's doing to my life versus feeling like I'm very comfortable and excited. I know this period is working on me in a way that none of the other periods in my life have worked on me yet. So I say I like because I have a sense for what it's doing to me. But I would say I don't like because it's uncomfortable now.

A (7:40)

Why is it uncomfortable?

B (7:41)

Because it's uncomfortable because everything. The first thing that has clearly disappeared for me is a certain naivete about life and the blind joy that it brings about things, whether it's ambitions, whether it's relationships, whether it's hanging out with friends. I think that, you know, growing up there was always the next dream to chase. And when you get there, then you realize it wasn't exactly what you thought it would be. And then you've had a series of that, and then you have seen and learned from all of those experiences. Then to realize that what. And for me, I realized what made me excited about those things no longer excite me.

A (8:40)

You're reading my mind. That's why I started this podcast. It's like, I call it Groundhog Day.

B (8:46)

And so then I have to ask the question, well, why am I living? Why am I doing what I'm doing? And it forces me to find the deeper answers which partly have been avoided, partly have. I haven't had the time to think about. Partly I haven't had the experience to think about it. And so I feel like this is a time in life where the convergence of the disappearance of naivete, the appearance of significant amount of experience all coming together, and also, I would say, an internal structure that has the capacity to grapple. And those three things coming together is what makes it likable, because I see what this state of my life is doing for me.

A (9:43)

Oh, my God, I love that. So you just said basically, this period of time is like. Essentially like the dissipation of naivety, the appearance of wisdom, and then it's like the desire to contemplate. All three converge together to make this both the most challenging and the most exciting time.

B (10:08)

Yes. And it's challenging because I can no longer avoid, like, I feel like I see too much to then say, you know what? I'm just not going to see it.

A (10:23)

That's right. And see too much in yourself.

B (10:25)

Correct, right, correct. And also see. See things about the world, to be. To be fair and honest. Right. The shiny objects. The shiny objects that I've chased. The shine has worn out for two reasons. One is there is a certain degree of saturation, for sure. And then there is certainly.

A (10:46)

You mean, like, you've, like, oh, I've.

B (10:48)

Done this, I've done it, I've done it. And then also thinking about, well, what did I experience after I got it? And what I realized is that the experience, it was very heightened for a few days, and then it sort of tapered off and onto the next thing. Right. And that has been. I've seen that cycle play out too many times to then understand that I haven't necessarily approached them or approached those things with a sense, with a search for lasting meaning. The second thing is suffering around it, which I've chased certain dreams, and I've put so much pressure on myself to get it within a certain period, get it better than other people. And then realizing that I'm subjecting myself to a certain kind of pain that is not necessary.

A (11:42)

Right.

B (11:43)

And sometimes you might say, well, that's just the grapes are sour approach. And when you put together the saturation and the suffering, you see that it's not necessarily the grapes of sour approach. There is a way in which I am beginning to question how I've approached things in life before and how I want to change my approach to them.

A (12:07)

You are like my gift to my midlife community because you are my gift from the universe. I found you kind of in this moment in midlife where I, too, was questioning what it all meant. And I really believe that to go up, I needed to go in. And we got introduced from a friend that we mutually know. You were like my, you know, every other week gift to myself where we. And it started by learning about the Gita. And then I feel like when we talk, it is. You're still teaching me through lessons of the Gita, but just also, like, if there's something that's happening that week or something that I'm reading that I'm contemplating, we go deep in it. But I want to talk about how does one live with an open heart? So this is one of the things you've really taught me. So before I met you, I never cried. And I was kind of proud of that. Like, it was just. It was. Yeah, I was, like, not living life with an open heart. And then as we started working together, I kind of broke open, and now I cry all the time. You know, in movies, if I'm reading something, if I'm just, you know, I don't know, see something beautiful, see something sad. So why is it important to live with an open heart? And how do you start that process? What's your advice to people of how to open up your heart?

B (13:32)

I will respond to your first question. What does it mean to live with an open heart? The heart is the seat of human experience. When we are pursuing any form of success, then what we are inherently pursuing is the experience of our own value and worth. What is the seat of our value and worth? That's our heart. When people appreciate us. And when the heart is not open, where does the appreciation go? Many times it just slides, which is. Which is part of the reason why even after accomplishing so many things, we can still continue to feel empty because our own experience of our value and worth, both from a point of view of what we have accomplished, its impact, and also what people say about us when they appreciate us has no place to go really, when the heart is blocked, when it's closed, the heart is also the seat of our values and values. And living our values is what really helps us experience the meaning and purpose of human life. So when the heart is not open, I can say values intellectually, but I can't experience it emotionally. I don't know what it means to live and experience living it. Those are just two examples of why the heart as a faculty of human experience is extremely vital. Now, going back to what you said about now I cry all the time. When we talk about the heart, many times the perception is, oh, like touchy feely. We're not here to talk the touchy feely stuff. Right? But that's not my experience of people who have a grounded heart. People who have a very grounded heart are people that I see have incredible courage. They have the capacity to be deeply vulnerable. They have the capacity to be deeply compassionate and empathic. And they have the capacity to deeply see others. Right? Even when those individuals are not able to see themselves fully. Right? So living with an open heart doesn't mean I walk around crying all the time. Living with an open heart means I actually live with the qualities of the heart. I can experience them myself, and others can experience those when they interact with me me. That's what it means to live the.

A (16:25)

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Without function, I wouldn't have understood what was going on in my body. I was able to finally figure out what was causing my fatigue, low energy and anxiety. Function has given me the insight to understand my body better than ever and to find solutions to all my symptoms. So learn more and join using my link. The first thousand get a $100 credit toward their membership. Visit www.functionhealth.com midlife or use gift code MidLife100 at signup to own your health this summer. I don't want to worry about my phone bill. All I want to do is enjoy my family vacation and not worry if I'm being overcharged while having to deal with spotty phone service. I want to travel and know I have a functioning phone wherever I'm at. That's Why I made the switch to Mint Mobile. With Mint, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. And for a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless for 15 bucks a month. 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This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer in your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com midlife. That's mintmobile.com midlife upfront payment of 45 is required, equivalent to 15amonth. Limited time new customer offer for the first three months only. Are you waxed? No, I'm unwaxed. Hi guys, I'm Sophia. And I'm Sistine Stallone. And this is I Unwax. We are less judgmental than your best friend, way cheaper than a therapist, and less painful than a wax. Join us every Tuesday where we discuss dating, bettering yourself, and hilarious stories. So listen to Unwax from Lemonade Media wherever you get your podcasts or check us out on YouTube to see the video version. And we will see you next Tuesday.

B (22:02)

Bye.

A (22:15)

So part of what you're talking about is compassion, right? Which is. We've talked about this so much, which is what I feel like is missing from the world right now, right? Is compassion. And you said for humans to kind of start learning compassion, you have to start understanding your own suffering and how you cause suffering to others. You actually gave me an assignment to ask the people in my life how I cause suffering, their suffering. Nahal loved this exercise. But you really recommend that, right? To start to begin this process, you kind of have to confront the impact that you Ca like y mean that you cause on others. Why do you start there, you think?

B (22:57)

One of my favorite teachers and writers, Father Richard Rohr, talks about two kinds of suffering. He talks about necessary suffering, unnecessary suffering. And he says that when we run away from our necessary suffering, we inevitably create unnecessary suffering for us and for everybody around us. And to really look at ourselves is a part of that necessary suffering. What am I running from is because I can't really run from it. I can suppress it. And suppressing it only makes things become more resentful, perhaps even more entitled. And all of those things just block compassion. It's impossible to then see what somebody else is going through. In fact, it can go to such an extent where I stop caring about what others are experiencing because my pain is so high that I need my fix at any cost. And others are the means for somehow soothing my pain, right? But when I take responsibility for my pain, when I really understand, well, what am I suffering that is leading me to act in ways that are creating.

A (24:24)

Suffering for others, how does one really identify what that is? So I think when the immediate thing, that people might be listening, saying, okay, childhood trauma, right? Like, what are the things that happened to me? A bully, a tough relationship with a parent, you know, a sexual assault, right? Something that may have happened to me as a child that I have not. I've either closed off or I haven't really dealt with. Are you talking about events or are you talking about something else?

B (24:58)

There are two. There are two broad sides to this. One is definitely events. And the events that you're talking about are in some way pretty extreme. And then there is a whole spectrum of what extreme experiences can look like. So that is one, one category. The other is events. Again. So, for example, I was not in the top 500 in, you know, the entering class of my college. College. And it created a lot of suffering for me. Again, that's an event, but I wouldn't necessarily classify that as a traumatic event. Although. Although I experienced it as trauma, right? And in those cases, it's important for me to really reflect and say, well, what am I so deeply attached to here? And for me, the attachment was a pursuit of success that I had defined in a specific way. And I was so deeply attached to seeing myself through the eyes of other people in that way. And I was so obsessed and so attached to that that when that didn't come to be, I was upset. And then at that point in time, what I had to deal with was the emotion of shame. But I didn't Call it that. What surfaced was anger, but I didn't look underneath. And then when anger surfaced, it was like, okay, I'm going to get them back. Get who back? It was not that somebody plotted my downfall, but there is. I needed to create this story around them and me and like boost up my competitive spirit.

A (26:39)

Yeah.

B (26:40)

To then to emerge victorious. That happens a lot.

A (26:45)

But attachment, we've talked about this. Attachment is not always bad. So one of the things that you've really helped me is like then in this phase of life, Right. I'm like, Reshma, you just gotta be less ambitious. You have to be less attached to these goals. Because as we know, like none of like the goal in life is to have less attachment. Right. To outcomes. And I think one of the things that you've taught me is that. No, actually it's okay to be attached and. And it's okay to have goals.

B (27:15)

Sure. So the question that we have to ask ourselves is what am I actually attached to? Right. And many times we find ourselves attached to a specific form of things. A big house, a kind of car, a kind of title. Those are just very broad examples. And sometimes they come to be, sometimes they don't come to be. But when they don't come to be, it creates some pain because the underlying narrative is that if I don't get these things, that must mean that I am incompetent, unworthy. Right. And all those. What we are at that point in time dealing with is with our own inner critic. That, you know, there's volumes and pages that have been written about the inner critic and can be written about it, but that's what we ultimately confront. So the ultimately what we are attached to is our egoic identities.

A (28:21)

Right?

B (28:22)

Right. And things then either boost it or give it some validation, reinforce it or not. And that's when we experience suffering.

A (28:34)

Yeah.

B (28:35)

But going back to the point, we need goals. What we are talking about here is not that we shouldn't have ambitions, but what am I ambitious about? So, like for example, to genuinely see the world free from hunger is an ambitious project.

A (28:55)

Yeah.

B (28:57)

But am I truly in service of that? Is the question that I have to ask. Many times I portray something where I can actually speak about a very noble cause. But am I truly a servant of the cause or do I want the world to see me in a particular light? Am I attached to the validation that comes from projecting the cause versus truly being attached to the cause itself? That's the difference.

A (29:39)

Our health care system is broken in so many ways.

B (29:43)

We have a health care system that's supposed to be taking care of people that is making it literally more difficult for people to put food on the table.

A (29:52)

So this season we'll dive into the challenges head first while also thinking about how we can find a better way. Because we all deserve better. Uncared for season three from Lemonada Media available August 6th. Wherever you get your podcasts. Hi there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. This fall, my podcast Wiser Than Me is back for season three with even more wisdom straight from some legendary old ladies. These chickadees have a lot to teach us. Every word is a lesson in living unapologetically and focusing on the stuff that really matters. From Lemonada Media, Wiser than Me, Season 3 out now. Find it wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe to Lemonada Premium in the Apple Podcasts app and listen to every episode of season three A.D. free. Hi, I'm Jessica St. Clair. And I'm June Diane Rafiel. And we are two friends trying to survive the chaos and celebrate the joy that life throws our way. And we do it every week on our podcast, the Deep Dive. Sometimes we dig into the deep stuff, like how I communicate with my dead best friend. And sometimes we give bad advice based off a TikTok I saw. And we're not going to apologize for that. Absolutely not. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll hire a psychic medium. Join us, won't you? Listen to the Deep Dive wherever you get your podcasts from Lemonada Media. The other thing I feel like we've talked about a lot, which I'd love to share, is. I don't know how to describe it. It's almost like we all get stuck on an emotion or a feeling that holds us back and we have themes. So as, as you know, my theme is rejection, right? And we could trace where that rejection came from. Being a brown girl in a white town, you know what I mean? And being being embarrassed about my name and my identity. Rejection can come later in life from not losing both my races, you know what I mean? And voters not saying, yes, Reshma, we believe in you. Rejection today could come in the form of having to work so damn hard again as a social entrepreneur to pass childcare. And I'm like, wait, why can't you see that I've done this before and just believe that I can do this? And then for me, rejection pops up all the time. And I've noticed, and I will admit this with all of you. It's like I sometimes feel like when I enter a room that people are talking about me. Which is kind of crazy. Right. For me it's like actually like the fear of rejection is everywhere.

B (32:53)

Right. It's almost when I'm so afraid of it, there is a way in which my fictitious self importance increases because I'm trying so hard to solve that problem that I have to actually first ensure myself that it exists. Which means people are talking about me.

A (33:14)

Right. Or like this thing, it's not going to work out for me. It's because it's like. Right, of course not. Right. I'm not going to get the thing.

B (33:19)

Yes, many different. So either I reject myself or I can make up stories about how others are saying things about me. Right. Like so. So then rejection becomes the enemy and then I have something to fight against.

A (33:37)

Yeah. So what are other. So for me it's rejection. What are some other big themes that you've seen in people that you've worked with?

B (33:48)

Rejection is definitely a big one that comes. The other ones that show up are moral superiority. Very common. In fact, it shows up, it shows up many times as morality. But when you dig underneath and really see, well, is it morality that usually shows up as moral superiority and where is it coming from specifically is I've chosen to live my life by certain principles, but I feel like others are getting away.

A (34:19)

Right, right.

B (34:20)

And they are getting what I so deeply desire too. But I can't stop living. I feel like if I compromise then I become a bad person. So now only way the ego knows how to live in that space is by then establishing myself as then superior to the other.

A (34:38)

Yeah. And some of these things, I mean we call them fears. Right. Failure is another big one. So how does one discover what their underlying fear is? And how do you overcome.

B (34:49)

Takes radical inquiry and then radical honesty to then admit it. And it usually is somebody has to take you there. Somebody that you feel has your back needs to take you there and then own it. And usually when we come face to face with the fear, the first experience is this deep seated vulnerability. And through that vulnerability, a feeling of sadness, helplessness. Because I now begin to understand how much I am in the grip of the sphere that runs my life. It's a very powerful place. My Enneagram teacher, Russ Hudson likes to say that that is the return to the scene of the crime where I left because I didn't want to see the fear. Right.

A (35:38)

So how do you return to the scene of the crime? How do you go to the origin?

B (35:42)

You go to the origin by learning to inquire, going Back to what we discussed. Well, why am I creating the suffering that I'm creating for what is my own suffering? And push at it, really asking the difficult questions, what am I insecure about? Yeah, where does it. Where does it lie? What are the experiences that have contributed to this insecurity? I did this exercise in my own life where I. I went year by year of my own own life and really started highlighting the points where I felt extreme shame.

A (36:19)

Why shame?

B (36:20)

Shame is something that I have. For me, that's my Achilles heel.

A (36:26)

So for me, I would go year by year and find my rejection. For somebody else, they might go year by year and find their fear of failure.

B (36:33)

For you, rejection creates the same emotion. We have talked about this. It creates some experience of shame. I'm not worth it. And there are small moments of rejection. There are big moments of rejection. I had to do something very similar in my own life. I remember standing, you know, second grade, my cousin taking a TWA flight to the. The United States and standing at the airport, like, where every single member of the family was like, he. He was on a pedestal. And that made me feel extremely insignificant.

A (37:13)

You remember feeling like, right, everybody's there for him.

B (37:16)

And so now that was a turning point in my own life where I told myself, that's what I need to become. Right. But it came from this experience of shame. And then I pursued a degree which is so crazy because I made decisions in my life that took me to Wall street, when fundamentally who I am as a human being is very, very different than what my profession dictated me to go towards.

A (37:46)

Right, right.

B (37:48)

So that was just one experience.

A (37:51)

So it's like. I mean, it's interesting because what you're saying, in many ways, it's like our life will guide us towards the thing that is not ultimately what we want, but because we're trying to, like, almost heal, like, a feeling that we had. And it's like identifying what that is can somewhat free you from it. So I'm gonna. You know, it's funny as, you know, like, I often think about this, right. Cause I have the woulda, shoulda, coulda's. You know what I mean? Maybe I should have taken that path. And when I ultimately think about it, I'm like, well, I don't want to do that. But how do you become free of it? See, I also think everybody has some regret, some envy, some path that they think. And I think midlife really surfaces that. Because I think that the thing that, like, at any day, this could be over. Right. But did I Live a life that was worthy of myself and my own expectations brings that up. So how do you, in this stage of life, really let go of that? Let go of the boy who was watching his cousin on the TWA fight because you never really wanted that any. How do you let that go?

B (39:09)

It takes, and I'm going to be very direct. It takes spiritual work. This is the classic intersection of psychology and actual real spiritual work. And I'm saying this not to make it abstract. I'm saying this because when I went to those points, when I walked through my own life year by year, trying to really understand what I was pursuing, trying to. What I also began to realize is that deep down my true self wants to be deeply loved. But how I pursue that love, I think that if I become this, then.

A (39:58)

People will love you.

B (39:59)

Then people will love me.

A (40:01)

Yeah.

B (40:01)

And that is all I want to experience, really, deep down. What I want is to experience somebody deeply mirroring me. To see myself as who I am and to be loved for that.

A (40:15)

Yep.

B (40:17)

And then for some of us, for most of us, we. We can't see our face without a mirror. We need mirrors to then even see our own faces. So what to speak about our deepest selves, we need a mirror to then show our deepest self. But the mirrors that we choose are not necessarily mirrors that accurately reveal who we are.

A (40:43)

Well, I guess, but don't you feel like that is part of what you're saying though, too? Which is like, you have to. You would say this to me. If it's find the mirrors.

B (40:51)

We have to find. You have to find the right mirrors. It's such a. It's very, very.

A (40:56)

And those are the right people in your life that are going to see you.

B (40:59)

Those will mirror you back for who you are deeply, not for necessarily your achievements. And those will not be a lot of people. So finding those people, keeping them very close, is an important thing. The second thing is then also fundamentally asking this question, who am I? And people will laugh when I say this. Right? Because it's like the eye roll classic existential question that has no answers. That this is the intersection of spirituality for me is to really understand this, because so many traditions across the world have fundamentally and systematically dealt with this topic. What we want is quick fixes, you know, at the push of a button. But to discover your true self is not a cheap thing.

A (41:54)

Yeah, but how do you do that? I mean, I almost feel like for me, it's easier to have a relationship with God than to answer the question of who am I? Well, in a genuine, honest way. You know what I mean?

B (42:13)

So, I mean, again, there's so much to talk about in this realm. Right. But ultimately, when you say I have a relationship with God, that goes to the heart of everything. Because when we talked about earlier being seen for who we are and not being able to see ourselves without a mirror, who do we see ourselves through? We have to understand and learn to see ourselves through the eyes of God.

A (42:42)

And I mean, is this why so many religions have this idea of, like, God loves me, God loves you?

B (42:47)

Yes. And. But again, the way it's said is so mechanical. Like when somebody tells you God loves you, but you don't necessarily experience what that means. Even when the words are recited, there is truth to what they're saying, but the experience doesn't necessarily get transmitted because the realization around it is so limited. But when you do meet the people that have actually realized this, which to me, I can say fundamentally, I was very fortunate that my spiritual search led me to intersect with people who have gone leaps and bounds to do the work, to do the spiritual work, and then when you're in their presence, you experience something of what it means to be loved by God.

A (43:44)

Hmm. So I want to talk about how. How do you start your spiritual practice? People are listening right now, and they're like, okay, I. Yes, like, in my midlife, I want to go in. How do you begin?

B (43:58)

It's just like saying, well, where do I start learning math?

A (44:01)

Yeah. So do you begin by saying whatever religion you are or whatever religion you might be interested in, like, picking up the. So that's how I started. Right. I said, I'm going to learn the bhagwat. I'm a Hindu. I don't know anything about Hinduism, even though I am Hindu. Right. Like, I'm going to learn the Bhagavad Gita.

B (44:18)

Well, there is some cultural connection you have with the text.

A (44:23)

Right.

B (44:23)

But the way I would lay it out is there is a lot of universality. And in my experience of being on a spiritual path for 27 years now and having had exposure to other religions, I see that there is so much universality in what they speak. What's important is to create a starting point. So if that's cultural familiarity, it's important to then say, okay, I'm going to start here, because I'm culturally familiar with it. For some people, the cultural familiarity has created the barrier.

A (44:57)

Yeah. Because some people might be listening. It's like, I'm not comfortable with institutionalized religion. Where should they start? I Don't want to start with attacks. Where should they start?

B (45:06)

And so to me, then start with someone. Start with a teacher. The text is not the institution. Right. And people who have walked the path are not the institution. It's important to separate those two things. It's like when science is taught by an institution in a certain way. That doesn't mean science is bad. Science has universality. What is important for me is to see who teaches that subject for me in a way that really inspires me and helps me understand and live the depths of what those texts are talking about step by step. Now, that doesn't have to happen many times. It doesn't happen through an institution.

A (45:51)

Yeah. It might happen through a meditation class. I mean.

B (45:53)

Yes. And it usually happens through individual teachers. It happens through people who have very deeply lived it.

A (46:01)

Right. You meet somebody that you're inspired by, and it's the wisdom. Speaking of. So you recommended. The last time we spoke in one of our sessions, reading the book Falling Upward, and I have just loved it. And, you know, it's Richard Rohr's book, who you're a big admirer of, and now I'm a big admirer of. The book is also about spirituality in midlife, or what does this phase of your life mean?

B (46:26)

Right.

A (46:27)

And one of the things that really blew me away is, and tell me if I'm getting this right, it's like a lot of his recommendations was that you have to kind of abandon everything, you know, in this phase of life to actually find the truth. And he talks about Jesus. Right. Or Odyssey. You know what I mean?

B (46:51)

The Odyssey is a big one. Yes.

A (46:53)

Right, Right. Where it's like, you have this kind of heroic person, and he has to abandon his life at some point, be thrown into the wilderness to then return. And so he was saying, actually, in midlife, what you should be pursuing is failure. I mean, you should be pursuing more risks you should be taking, because the first part of your life was really just a container. But this is the Big show, and I loved that. Tell me more.

B (47:28)

So the Big show we have, again, we have a very myopic understanding of what that big show needs to be based on the container. And what Richard Rohr is really trying to say is we don't even know what the big show is.

A (47:45)

Right. I want to stop you here, and I really want people to understand what you just said, because that was like. What you're saying is, like, we think that in midlife, we just have to continue the container. I'm a lawyer. Just continue Being a good lawyer, I'm a wife. Just continue being a good wife. I have these friends, just continue, right?

B (48:01)

Or saying, I need to become a bigger lawyer.

A (48:04)

Right?

B (48:05)

I need to become a bigger politician. Like, it's basically expansion of the same.

A (48:09)

Thing, which is why we get bored and we feel saturated, right?

B (48:15)

We feel empty and we felt empty.

A (48:17)

So what are we, what is, what are you and Richard saying we should do instead?

B (48:21)

Well, what we have to ask is, do I even know what that big show is? Right. And the, the what, what Odysseus had to go through was a humbling, which to me, that's why, that's what brings us to this point. The fundamental understanding of learning and discovery is humility. Because if I know, if I think I know, then how am I even going to find out? Right? So midlife is a place that is cultivating, that is actually creating humility for us, right?

A (49:05)

And so how do you do that? Because sometimes in some ways God gives you a gift and you have a major tragedy. I have a lot of friends who've lost a parent at this stage, and it has been the biggest opening and like, of course, and the biggest shift for them. So what if that doesn't happen? Like, right. How do you have the humbling, the awakening, the. Besides blowing up your life? Because one could hear him say, leave it all. You know what I mean? Go into the wilderness.

B (49:37)

It's not leaving at all. So first of all, the crisis doesn't have to appear in the form of an external thing when we really pay very close attention to our own boredom and emptiness. I mean, to me, emptiness is the most cutting of tragic things in life because I can continue to be in the same place. And the loss is just so ambiguous that I don't even know what the loss is about. And yet I feel it so deeply. Right? So it doesn't have to be a big event externally that happens, but it's about learning how to listen to what's going on inside. Right? That's the. And every time, every time when we turn inwards, there is a humbling that happens. And this is what happened to Odysseus too. Like, humbled, I thought I knew, I thought I challenged the cyclops. But what he learns in his journey was that was pride, right? And at that point in time, he really understands. Actually, I, you know, I was just too proud. I didn't see what I really needed to see, which actually got me into great trouble in life. So there is an humbling that happens. And from that place, I actually Become a seeker. Otherwise, I'm not a seeker. I'm just trying to band aid. I'm trying to get my life jump started again.

A (51:10)

Yeah.

B (51:11)

Without really paying attention to what do I have to learn. And the only time I come to being a learner genuinely is when I'm humbled. C.S. lewis loves. I love this quote from C.S. lewis. It says, he says, many times humiliation comes before humility. It is extremely powerful.

A (51:31)

It's very true. Okay, so as we close, what's one thing that you can do to be a seeker to instigate this humbling? You said go inward. I just. I mean, how. What's one practical thing someone can do?

B (51:47)

The first thing I would have people do is write out the questions that I don't have answers to. Just write them out and be able to say, I don't have the answers to these questions.

A (52:03)

Why am I bored? Why am I unhappy?

B (52:06)

Right. Just write them down very explicitly. And in writing those questions down, I'm also acknowledging something that I might have not completely acknowledged.

A (52:18)

That I am bored.

B (52:19)

I am bored. That I am. I do feel empty inside. And all of the previous techniques that I have learned are no longer working. I'm angry. I'm resentful. Right. I have been resentful for a very long time. In writing those questions also lies a deeper acknowledgment. That is the first place to start, because when we acknowledge, we are humbled.

A (52:49)

Another great one. Thank you. This was amazing, and it was a big gift for all of our listeners.

B (52:55)

So thank you, Rashmi.

A (52:56)

Really appreciate you.

B (52:57)

Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity.

A (53:04)

So if this conversation stirred something in you, if you've been wondering about where to begin when it comes to exploring spirituality or connecting to something deeper, I want to give you a few next steps. First, start small. Brasnath always says the most powerful practice is the one you actually do. That could mean five minutes of meditation each morning or just taking a quiet walk without your phone number. Two, ask better questions. Instead of saying, what's wrong with me? Try to ask yourself, what is this moment teaching me? Or what do I really need right now? Three, read something that moves you. Falling Upward by Richard Rohr is a beautiful place to start. So is the Bhagavad Gita, which Razanath and I often discuss. You might also find wisdom in the Tao Te Ching or the Psalms, or a poem by Rumi. Whatever your tradition, or even if you don't have one, start with something that speaks to your soul and your heart. Number four. This is a big one. Find a teacher that could be a friend, a mentor, a spiritual counselor, or a podcast guest like Rosanov. Don't be afraid to reach out and start new conversations. Number five Create space. Spirituality doesn't require a mountaintop. It requires margin. A little quiet, a little room to feel. Try logging off for an afternoon or spending time going for a walk in nature. Listen to what comes up. This part of life isn't just about surviving or achieving. It's about going inward to finally move upward. Remember, you got to go in to go up. I hope this conversation helps you take one small step in that direction. Thank you to Raznov Das for joining me today. One last thing, thank you so much for listening to my so Called Midlife. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonade Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like even more from my conversation with Rosanoff. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonoff premium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's Lamanata premium.com don't miss out. Thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host Rashmi Sajani. Our associate producer is Isara Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound design by Ivan Kulraev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oja Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax, and Jessica Cordova. Kramer Ceres Consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye. Hi, I'm Erica Mahoney. You don't know me, but you know a version of my story because by now we've all felt the impact of senseless gun violence.

B (57:15)

I think a stray bullet flew past me because I hear the it was that horrible feeling of just something's wrong.

A (57:23)

Four years ago my dad was killed in a mass shooting. My podcast Senseless is about moving Forward after the unthinkable senseless from Lemonada Media premiering June 17.