D (3:44)

ways in this conversation.

C (3:45)

Like, what does it mean to have a legacy? Why does it matter? Does it matter? Is that legacy for you or for the world? Midlifers. This is an episode. I'm telling you, you're gonna wanna have a pen and a paper for. Because Lena name checks so many authors

D (4:01)

and books and things that she's watching

C (4:04)

that I'm dying to check out too. And I think you are as well. So sit back, relax, enjoy this deeply moving conversation with a really incredible and phenomenal and spellbinding storyteller. Here's Lena Waithe.

D (4:23)

So this is how we always start. We always start by talking a little bit about mindset. Now you are like, you're just entering midlife, right?

E (4:32)

I just turned 41 last month, so

D (4:35)

some people think midlife starts at like 35. So you. But you're still liking the baby. I'm going to be 50 this. So I'm like, in it. In it, Right.

E (4:41)

Depends on when people think we're going to go. If you think you're going to go at 100, then that's technically mid. If you can think. People think we're going to go at 80, then I'm technically smack dab in the mid. Just depends.

D (4:52)

I guess it depends how bad your lifestyle is, because I feel like we're going to live long.

E (4:56)

It all depends. Everything dies eventually. When?

D (5:00)

Eventually. So assume we're going to live to 100. So we're kind of both in the middle.

E (5:04)

Yeah.

D (5:04)

How. How would you describe this. This period of your life? Like, are you happy? Like, I'm a little.

C (5:11)

I'll be honest.

D (5:12)

I'm like, I am not that. I'm not that fucking hyped about turning 50. Like, I still have a lot of attachment to youth. How do you feel?

E (5:20)

Well, I just like the use of that word. It's interesting because I'm coming out of this 10 day silent retreat that I did last month and I was happened to be in there on my birthday. I was in there from the 15th through the 25th, and it's called Vipassana. And I've.

C (5:40)

I've done it.

E (5:40)

Oh, you know what I'm talking about.

D (5:41)

I do know.

E (5:42)

Where are you? In Boston.

D (5:43)

So I did it Art of Living. And they have it in the. You can do it in the city. You can do it like a little bit outside. Cool.

C (5:49)

You did for a whole week?

E (5:50)

10 days.

F (5:51)

Wow.

E (5:51)

Yeah. How long did you do it for?

D (5:53)

I did it for four.

E (5:54)

Okay. Yeah.

D (5:55)

And it was hard for me.

E (5:56)

Yeah. I mean, it's very challenging, but hopefully you found it rewarding. Curious. How long ago did you do it?

C (6:01)

I did.

D (6:02)

I mean, I did it probably four years ago. But it's funny that you say that because I was trying to figure out some time. I want to do it again before I turn 50.

E (6:13)

Oh, nice. I think that'd probably be smart. I did it. This was my second time. I did it last year around the similar time. I remember I got out like June 2nd, you know, so. Yeah. But it's interesting, the reason why the word attachment kind of gave me a light bulb moment because if you remember that attachment is the root of misery.

D (6:39)

Absolutely.

E (6:39)

Yeah.

D (6:40)

I'm a practicing Hindu, so I study the Bhagavad Gita. And this. It's so interesting we're having this conversation. Right. Because I think this is like, I feel like I started thinking about these things like in midlife. Like, I'm attached to ambition. You know what I mean? I grew up as an immigrant. I'm attached to. Right. Like still material things or accolades or just the sense of like, oh, yes, you have achieved something in your life.

E (7:05)

Right. And it's about, where do you place value? And so it's great because, like, you already have the language. Even just like you using the word attachment. Is this something that people don't often use that word. That's why Kona was like, oh, I think we're speaking literally a similar language. Because the reason why you said you. You kind of. Because you have attachment to accomplishing maybe certain things before you turn 50. And so there. If you have not accomplished those set things, then by 50, you feel a little bit agitated.

D (7:40)

Absolutely.

E (7:41)

And so what we know is it's about detaching ourselves from whatever it is we think we're supposed to accomplish. By the time we turn 50, do

D (7:50)

you feel like you're. Where are you in that process?

E (7:54)

It's interesting because I really started practicing detachment in a very serious way after the first time I did it. And so I turned 40 just before I went in. So the first time. So this past year detachment is something I've actually been. I've had a better education about it because of Vipassana. And so I've just started to be thoughtful about that. And then the second time around, as they do suggest you do it every year, the ten day course, which I. I plan to do. Although the future doesn't exist and the past is gone, all we have is right now. But I hope to, you know, I'm not going to attach to the idea, but my hope is to go every year around my birthday to be reminded of detachment, to be reminded to not cling to things that feel good and the thing. And also. But I was interesting because. And I spoke to Young Pueblo who writes a lot of great books that a lot of people probably are familiar with. He's the person that introduced the idea of it to me. But I asked him, what's the difference between, you know, ambition.

C (9:06)

Yeah.

E (9:06)

And sort of wanting. Because we are sort of taught to accept reality as it is, not as we wish it to be. But oftentimes if you're a manifester or if you're ambitious, you in essence are wanting that thing. He gave me a really beautiful answer where he was saying, you can put energy toward those things, but try not to put tension. I love it. I loved it too. I mean, because it was really helpful. Because when you are an ambitious person, you can get that confused with clinging to or attaching to like things that haven't occurred. Right. And so if those things don't occur, then that can result in misery or agitation. Right.

D (9:50)

I love what you're saying. So my teacher also taught me that, like. Cause I had a similar question. Cause I was like, so is it,

C (9:58)

is it bad to want things?

E (10:00)

I mean, it's a really good question.

D (10:01)

Right.

C (10:02)

Is it bad to want things?

D (10:03)

And so when we talked about, he's

C (10:04)

like, no, God wants you to want things.

E (10:06)

Correct.

C (10:06)

But we are wanting things in his service.

E (10:09)

Right?

C (10:10)

Right. Not in the service of your own ego. And that shift for me, Lena was like really powerful. Right.

D (10:18)

Because I stopped feeling guilty about like I have an ambition for making the world a better place.

E (10:25)

That's a beautiful one and a beautiful desire.

D (10:27)

But I just feel I would be like, wait, is that. But should I. I was Feeling guilty, though, about the outcomes in furtherance of that ambition. You see what I'm saying? Because I was like, is that disconnected? Is that too connected to my own ego? And I think parsing that out for me really helped.

E (10:41)

Well, yeah. And I also think the question becomes, what is your definition of a better place? And. And. And also, why do you want the world to become a better place? Do you want to become a better place just for you and your family? Or do you want the world to be better for everyone? And so then you get to start thinking about, well, what does it look like for the world to be better for everyone? And for the world to be better for everyone means everyone has what they need. I mean, everybody gets everything that they want. But then the other question is, I think we have to ask ourselves, why do we want the things that we do? Because if you want a fancy car, the question becomes, why?

C (11:29)

Yeah, so let me. So we.

D (11:31)

So this is so good, because I was thinking about this. I have a strong. This was a lesson that I had to learn a little bit because I grew up. I grew up in Chicago, Born in Berwyn, Illinois. Grew up, went to school in Schaumburg. I know you were up in south side. And so, you know, as. And I think you relate to this is like, as a daughter of refugees, and my parents were always struggling,

C (11:57)

but

D (11:57)

that also meant that, like, the American dream or the fact that we could go to, you know, Olive Garden or they could buy a nice home in Schomburg, right? Or they could have, like, my family, you know, wore the forensic sweatshirt but bought the nice car. You know what I mean? Because it was still a way of showing the community that they've made it.

E (12:21)

And that, I think, is a result of us living in a capitalist society. And that is a reality that I have to accept. And what I've also learned is that acceptance and agreement are not the same thing. So I love that. Just because you accept your reality doesn't always necessarily mean you're in agreement with it. So the reason why the American dream often looks like a fancy car, a nice house, you know, your kids going to colleges or universities, is because it services capitalism. And just as, like, the beauty industry is built on women being told they are not beautiful, right? Because if every woman in the world or people that identify as a woman, think that they're beautiful as they are,

D (13:19)

what could I sell? You can't sell you nothing.

E (13:20)

Sephora goes out of business, right? Plastic surgeons have nothing to do.

D (13:23)

Did you feel that way about the so this. You feel that way about the American dream too? Because I. I guess I'm still very attached to the American dream because I think about how my parents came here with $6 in their pockets, came with nothing, changed their name from Mukundan Madhu to Mike and Mina, right? Like, and now their daughter is one's a doctor, one's, you know, making the world a little bit better. But, like, when my father, you know, I'm going back home to Chicago on Sunday to interview Jacinda Arden, you know, on her book tour. And I know my father's gonna sit there in this audience of a thousand people and watch his little girl and him think it was all worth it. And that is like the American dream to me. Right.

E (14:07)

Well, here's the thing is, like. And the American dream is at whose expense? And people have also been sold something on what America is and what it can be. Because my ancestors were brought here against their will. There are some people whose ancestors came here looking for a better life. And the question becomes, what does the American dream actually promise you?

D (14:47)

And it may promise you different things depending upon whether you were brought here as a slave or you came here as a refugee.

E (14:54)

And the truth is, either way, you know, my grandmother migrated from the south to Chicago. She left the south at 17 because the south wasn't a, say, fun place to be for a black person. Somebody could argue it may. It's still not always a fun place to be if you're a black person. But she got a home with my grandfather, a home in which they raised three children. I got to be raised in that home as well when my mother divorced my father When I was 2 years old, and I spent the first, like 2 from 10, from 2 to 12, I was living in that house. And also my grandmother helped to integrate that neighborhood. There was a cross burned on across the street from her, her neighbor's house, the Watsons.

D (15:40)

Wow.

E (15:40)

And it was really very communal because I was growing up with kids that were the children of the kids that my mom grew up with. So it was a. I call it a three generation neighborhood, but I knew it just to be all black folks. But when my grandmother came there, it wasn't. It was not. Yeah, it was like literally raising in the sun, you know, they. They moved into a white neighborhood. Not necessarily welcomed with open arms. And then white flight occurred and then it became an all black neighborhood. But by the time came along in the 80s, like, it was just a black neighborhood. And that's all I knew it to be. That was my reality. But that is also a form of the American dream, or the American story, rather, because even that term, American dream dream has a beautiful definition for us. It means something to want, to desire, to reach for. You know, it's something when you asleep, you have a dream. And when you put America and dream next to each other, you can desire it, you can want it, you can look up to it, you can start to worship it. And I think that comes from us not always accepting the reality of it. Like, what was America actually built on? How did America actually come to be? And the truth is there's also this desire to look away from some of the horrors of how America came to become what it is. And so we have to accept the fact that America is a place with a very complex and sometimes horrifying history.

G (17:25)

Do you ever find yourself scrolling through headlines, especially health headlines, and just thinking

E (17:31)

that can't be true?

G (17:33)

Well, I certainly do. 2025 brought us some ridiculous, far fetched health claims and some especially terrifying changes in public health. What's in store for us in 2026? I'm Chelsea Clinton and we're back with season two of my podcast, that Can't Be True. Follow along and catch up on season one, wherever you get your podcasts.

D (18:11)

I'm working on a documentary on motherhood in America. And one of the things I tell people, it's like the culture divide of motherhood is so deeply entrenched. I mean, it's back into the 1900s, back into slavery. Who could be a mother, who could stay at home, who had the opportunity to take care?

E (18:27)

Mothers were separated from babies, as we all know, because black people, in order for us to be treated in the way that we were, they couldn't necessarily think of us as human.

D (18:38)

Right.

E (18:38)

And so oftentimes we are listed as almost cattle.

D (18:42)

Yeah.

E (18:43)

And so those mothers did not have the right to their own children because they were both seen as property.

C (18:50)

But you think about it, what's happening

D (18:51)

today for so many black women, they drop their children out at night, daycare. Think about that, right? The amount, how much little time that they actually get to spend in caregiving. And we take all this stuff for granted. Like we don't even think about not

E (19:06)

just mothers of color, but also all types of mothers. I'm reading a book right now called Mother Hunger, which is all about how your mother is supposed to give you three things. Guidance, nurturance and protection. And how more often than not, there's something that one, two, and sometimes even all three things that you don't get from your mother and how that shows up in adulthood. And so, but also you have to look back at your grandmother because you have to ask, well, what did your grandmother not give your mother? Because if whatever your mother didn't receive, it's difficult for her to give to you.

D (19:39)

Yep.

E (19:39)

And when you, the further back you go, the less nurturance is there, the less protection is there, sometimes even less guidance is there.

C (19:47)

Can it ever go in reverse?

D (19:49)

Like, can you, could you ever, like, I mean, thinking about this as a mom and some of the things that I didn't get from my mother and think about with my children, how I want to make sure, like in my family and you never really saw anybody kiss or hug, like affection wasn't just a thing. And now I find myself with my children just overly, you know, because I want them to have the physical contact that I didn't feel I really had.

E (20:14)

True, I mean, but, but, and that is something you, when you identify it, then you can correct it. Course correct, if you will. But sometimes people can't always identify what they didn't get. So they may not realize, oh, I didn't get a lot of guidance. So now as an adult, I don't have a moral compass.

D (20:32)

I didn't feel safe.

E (20:33)

Right, right. I didn't have a lot of protection. So therefore I look for that in partners. Or I didn't have a lot of nurturance, which is really sort of saying eye contact, your parent really being connected to you, knowing who you are. And a lot of, you know, I really realized, oh, I really did lack nurturance. And so there. Then you become an adult that looks for outside validation, looking for people give you approval. Because as a young person there was no one to say, I want to get to know you. That's really what nurturance is. And the truth is, is because a lot of mothers don't have the time, the capacity or the ability because they maybe didn't get it from their mothers.

C (21:11)

Do you see that with you?

D (21:12)

Because you grew up in this three generation family of women with your grandmother, your mother. I know you talk about that. Do you see that? Like what's, do you see that in your family?

E (21:20)

Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's also, it can be generational, it can also be cultural. So a lot of times there's this really great line like in fences where the son says to the father, how come you never liked me? And the father says, I don't have to like you. He basically says, like, I Feed you, I clothe you, I house you. That's enough. And I think for that generation, for them, that's what parenting is or was. Right. And what certainly was for mine, that to me, I think it can be generational and cultural. So then what happens is you have a generation of people that grow up not having any real emotional connection to their parents, but yet there's this sort of responsibility that they feel to them.

C (22:13)

Sense of duty.

E (22:14)

Yes. And you know, on Vipassana, it tells you, like love, pure love, comes with no expectations.

C (22:21)

Yep.

E (22:22)

And what I think my generation, 41 or people, a lot of my friends are in their 40s just turning 40, we're realizing, oh, there's an expectation of us to look out for the parent, to honor the parent, to take care of the parent. Not necessarily because there is a bond, but because there is a debt owed.

D (22:42)

Well, I find too that the sense of duty is a good thing. Right. Because I think culturally it's like this idea of like taking care of your elders is like seva. Right. It's like giving back.

E (22:56)

I don't necessarily agree in terms of that because if I just don't believe there should be an expectation. I think if there was a bond, that's what makes an adult child come back now. But also what makes an adult child come, come back is a sense of responsibility. And I think that to me is where a lot of tension lies and resentment. Because if your parent didn't bond with you or get to know you, which by the way, their parents didn't get to. I used the word curiosity. I think there was a lack of curiosity about who I was as a person. It was more I was something to take care of.

D (23:53)

But was it cause they were. See, I guess the way I rationalize this with my family is because they were just trying to survive.

E (23:59)

Correct. That's totally fair. But what, but the thing is, is that in doing that, then when a person becomes an adult, there's a consequence to that. Yeah. And here's the other thing too. Having children is a choice.

C (24:19)

Absolutely.

E (24:20)

And it's a choice. I'm choosing to not have kids. Now, if a person chooses to have kids because we none of us said, hey, please have me.

D (24:29)

Right.

E (24:31)

So if someone has a child, and that's the situation we're in now, it's like sometimes people feel like I don't have a choice. Like society tells women, Right. That you're only worthy.

D (24:41)

Right.

E (24:41)

If you have a child or someone cannot afford or has the privilege to get an abortion in wherever they're living. And so my question becomes, if you're having a child, what, Again, we go back to the want. Why do you want to have a child? Do you want to have a child because you want to be a vessel for a person to come through into the world.

D (25:05)

Yeah.

E (25:06)

And for them to exist in the world outside of you, or do you want them to be an extension of you? Or do you want to relive a friend?

D (25:12)

Or you want to relive your past? I mean, like, I mean, but again,

E (25:15)

that now is expectation on this child, on this person.

F (25:34)

Hey, everyone, it's Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin.

H (25:36)

You might know us as two of the lead organizers of the no Kings protests. We're also the co founders of Indivisible, the grassroots movement organizing against Trump's regime.

F (25:44)

And this is what's the Plan? Your weekly guide to the state of our democracy and how we fight back. This is not canned talking points. It's a real live discussion space for the pro democracy movement. We wrestle with strategy together. We take your top voted questions in real time, and we talk about the most impactful actions we can take.

H (25:59)

Right now, democracy is a participatory sport. The fascists win. When we sit on the sidelines, what's the Plan is about how we get into the game.

F (26:06)

What's the plan? Available Friday, January 23rd, wherever you get

H (26:09)

your podcasts, subscribe, recruit, discuss, organize, and win. That's the plan.

C (26:29)

So your gift, your God given gift

D (26:31)

is your ability to storytell first black woman to like, win the. I mean, like, you just are. Have achieved so much in your life. How do you think about what we're just talking about in terms of, of the stories that you tell, the stories that you're attracted to when you decide as a creative right, I'm gonna turn this into a script, a show, a book, you know, like, how does that impact?

E (26:57)

Well, I mean, I think, you know, for me it's. It's really about things that are stirring inside of me that I can't let go of. Things that kind of stay with me. I don't even want to use the word haunt, but rather things that stay. And I go, okay, I want to explore this. Or I think my perspective on this could be an interesting one. But it really is the job of a writer, you know, to not judge. We cannot. Otherwise you can't write good characters because. And also when you're an actor, you know, we're like, we're empathy ambassadors.

D (27:33)

Right.

E (27:33)

You know, it's like Meryl Streep you know, does a beautiful job. And the Iron lady playing Margaret Thatcher, if she judges her good ones.

D (27:43)

Yep.

E (27:45)

Then so will the audience. She has to come to grips with everything this woman has done, has decided go even further. Anthony Hopkins and Hannibal. That's Hannibal Lecter. It's easy to judge that character. But Sounds of the Lambs doesn't work if you only care about the person that's outside of the cage.

C (28:07)

Right.

E (28:08)

And that, really is a writer's job, is to make you care and see about every single character that comes into frame.

C (28:19)

How'd you learn how to do that?

E (28:22)

You know, it's interesting. I learned by watching Friends and Sex and the City and Living Single and A Different World, because, yes, they're sitcoms, but the thing that you learn very early on when you want to be a television writer, and I remember hearing Marta Kaufman and David Crane saying this, is that you cannot have two characters in the scene, in the same scene agreeing with each other, or you do not have a scene. Characters in a scene cannot be in agreement. And what I love about Aaron Sorkin's voice is a lot of things, but he writes like a lawyer. He has to argue every side relentlessly. And so if I have two characters arguing about gun violence, arguing about abortion, arguing about, you know, gay marriage, I have to be able to fight both sides. Otherwise the audience is going to sit at home and go, well, this argument's lopsided.

D (29:26)

Hmm. So my vehicle as a movement builder is a speech. I have a similar thing. I get real curious about something I can't get out of my head. I can't sleep. Like, right now, I'm really obsessed about gender. And I feel like, you know, like we're tricking people. Whether it's about men, women, trans. It's like the reason why boys are suffering is because women are rising. Right. And all of that is like this, based on this idea that, like, progress is just zero sum, which I think is like the biggest con and the biggest lie. So for me, it's like I. I have an idea, and then I put it into a speech, and that's the way that I execute, kind of on shifting consciousness. Right. In society. But it's very judgment full.

E (30:10)

Well, I mean, here's the deal again, about acceptance, right? And accepting the reality as it is, not as we wish it to be. I accept that we live in a patriarchal society. That's not an opinion. And that's because history shows us that. Can you show us a woman president on the map?

D (30:31)

No.

E (30:32)

Do women make less Than men.

D (30:34)

Yes.

E (30:35)

The question becomes who does the patriarchy benefit? Who wrote the rules? Were there any women in the room when they wrote the Constitution? Were there any black people in the room when they wrote the Constitution? Also, if you think about why there is such an extreme fear and an attack on people who identify as non binary.

D (30:59)

Right. Because they're threatening the status quo.

E (31:01)

Correct. And society doesn't know where to place you. Are you a first class citizen or a second class citizen? No matter how many ways you slice it, women are second class citizens in the nation in which we live. Right. And so anything person that doesn't subscribe to the binary, they do not know where to place you. We can use and just like that, as an example, Sara Ramirez, who is a self identified person that is non binary. People think they don't like the character, but what they don't realize is that they have been taught to not subscribe to someone that does not subscribe to the binary.

D (31:43)

Yep.

E (31:45)

And so what I try to do is just sort of say very calmly and plainly that a lot of our opinions and ideas are not our own, but rather something that we've been indoctrinated since birth. Because think about toys. I was a little girl. What toys am I given?

D (32:03)

Right? Pink ones, Barbies.

E (32:04)

But not even that. Actual baby dolls. I'll never forget. There's one in which you change the diaper. There's a poop and pee in the diaper that shows up and then you can. So as a young girl, even my own mother, to no fault of her own, is giving us dolls and babies and playhouses. We are raised to be domestic, Right. And boys are given fire trucks, superheroes, sports, you know, like bats, balls. To be active, to be aggressive, to be protectors. Children, toys and things like that are very important. I just watched the Pee Wee Herman documentary called Pee Wee asks himself on Max. Highly recommend it. And what's interesting is that. And I used to watch Pee Wee Herman's Playhouse as a young person.

D (32:59)

Me too.

E (33:00)

And what now? Having perspective, not being a young kid watching it, but being a 41 year old looking at it, the documentary, looking back, he was wearing heels, you know, he was avant garde. He was a, you know, a real performance artist. Obviously now we know there was, there was queerness within his life and he was making art for children to say, you don't have to be what you've been told to be.

D (33:26)

Yeah.

E (33:27)

And of course he of course was almost ripped away and said, no, he's a pervert, he's a Pedophile. Don't look at him, he's bad.

D (33:33)

When they realized what he was trying

E (33:36)

to shift and what he was really trying to say was, let kids be themselves. Who are children? What are they? What are their personalities? Let's not tell them who to be, but rather let them reveal themselves to us. And he, of course, becomes a pariah. Because in society, those who are the powers that be, that make the rules, if you will, don't want young kids to go away from tradition. That's why that word can be scary, right? Because it used to be tradition that men would sort of sell their daughters away.

D (34:09)

Yep, yep. I mean, where I think everything you're saying is so powerful and so true is like. And that's why we. The pendulum keeps shifting. Like, we win a battle where we move away from the binary, move away from, like, putting people in boxes, lead to what I think is the truth, which is a lot more choice, freedom, openness, and then there's too much, and then people just swing it right back.

E (34:33)

Well, everything is cyclical. Everything is always changing, as we know. Yeah, but why does it go back?

D (34:39)

Why does it go back?

E (34:40)

Because those in power benefit from it

D (34:47)

being one or the other.

E (34:48)

Patriarchal, capitalist, white leaning. Who does that benefit? Who does it? Like, you look at who, who the million, the billionaires are, who's in power, who is president, it tells you something. I mean, here's the deal. It's like, you look at who is in power, look at who is the president. Like, that is. That's a majority.

D (35:12)

Do you think those institutions, though, are, like, weakening? So some would argue the reason, for example, right now you have this huge kind of scream of like, toxic masculinity is because it's breaking. The patriarchy's got a crack in it. What do you think about that?

E (35:32)

It's interesting. I mean, how much is it cracking when you look at who is currently president of our nation? I don't know how much is cracking. Because it takes more than just men to uphold the patriarchy. Yeah, there's this really beautiful book by.

C (35:50)

Can you just give me your reading list?

E (35:52)

I will. I mean, there's a book called Sky Full of Elephants, a friend of mine, cbo, wrote, it's his first, it's a debut novel and in which he imagines a world where whiteness no longer exists and therefore only people of color are walking around in existence. And there's an element of having to redefine who you are when you are not being oppressed, when that privilege.

D (36:20)

Right. Or when you're not the oppressed or

E (36:22)

when you're being oppressed, because there's no whiteness to be spoken of or to be seen. And it's this sort of interesting world how these. How people are walking around because these people knew what white. There was a day where, you know, it all happened, but they now have to redefine themselves. So if you think about if women have to live in a world where men do not exist or not men per se, because then there could be something as like anti male, but where the patriarchy doesn't exist, because patriarchy is not only held up by men, then

D (36:53)

who do women become and who do men become? I mean, that's the thing that people

E (36:58)

are struggling with, and that's the thing. So it's like Baldwin has a beautiful quote that says, not everybody wants to be free, because when you have it, what are you to do with it? It's like breaking a pattern. And we know that there's nothing more difficult than pattern breaking.

D (37:16)

Legacy is very important to you.

C (37:18)

Why that word?

D (37:19)

Why that frame?

E (37:23)

I think because we don't own anything. Nothing belongs to us. Yes, I have an Emmy, right? When I'm no longer Earthside, that Emmy is no longer my possession. I don't need someone to put it in my casket with me before they close it and. And bury my body. All I have is something that is not tangible, which is a legacy, which is really the work I leave behind and the way in which people may remember me.

D (37:58)

That's a grown person's perspective on it. I mean, it's a very wise at 41 to really get. I mean, I know women right now that are 80 are still not thinking about their legacy in the way that they need to.

E (38:11)

Well, the truth is, a legacy does not belong to you either, because your legacy really can't be defined until you're gone. You really see. I mean, there are three stars that I grew up with and were very defining in my life that are no longer Earthside. Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Prince. Their legacies came into view once they were no longer here. And they have no control over those legacies, right? Literally, the people that run their families, that run their estates, that's something different because it's about how do you continue to make money off of this artist in some way? Because in essence, again, capitalist society. Even when you're gone, you're still gonna, you know that off of that talent, we're gonna still release music. We're still gonna license it, we're still gonna sell merch. But the legacy is something else. Paul Rubens like his. His legacy. Because of this documentary. I was really grateful to do a documentary called Being Mary Tyler Moore in which Dr. Robert Levine trusted me with Mary's. To really give people perspective, context.

D (39:26)

Yeah. And to write the story right.

E (39:29)

Well, she. The story had already been written for me, it was more about helping people to see what she had done and what I loved. When people would come up to me, they would say, there were so many things I did not know about Mary Tyler Moore. All I knew was a smile and the hat being thrown up. And then they realized, oh, she was an alcoholic. She was also raised by one. Her mother was an alcoholic. She became one herself. She lost her son to an accidental suicide and then would go on to play a mother. I think it actually happened after. But she played a mother who lost a son to ordinary people, to an accidental boating accident. How life imitated art and how she had a very troublesome time on Broadway. In the beginning, Thoroughly Modern Millie did not work. And they returned and she took on a role in Whose Life Is It Anyway? It was a role played by a man, one of the first people to come in and shift gender. And she won a special Tony for that performance. There were so many things that people didn't understand about her. A lot of that because I read her memoir when I was in high school called After all, because also I was always been a student of television. Watching the Dick Van Dyke show and then watching the. The Mary Tyler Moore show and seeing how she gave us two definitions there it is about what a woman can be. She showed us what it is to be a stay at home, wife and mother, and then obviously showed us a very sort of revolutionary role as a woman who was a career woman who was childless and unmarried. And to me, I always say, like, she's of the Jackie Kennedy of television. She sort of showed you the two sides of womanhood and how both were valid.

D (41:17)

What's your advice, though, on shaping legacy? Cause as you were talking, I'm thinking, you know, like, you cannot be what you cannot see. I think it is so important, like in my, you know, started an organization called Girls who Code, spent, you know, 10 years teaching. Half the girls we taught were black and brown, as, you know, like hidden figures. Some of the oldest women in STEM were women of color. But we didn't share those stories. We didn't tell those stories till much later. And the impact of telling those stories are so powerful on girls of color. So, like, this idea of legacy is so important, right to preserve, to share, to tell. What can we all do to make sure that those stories are being told, that our own stories are being told, or that stories are important for other people to see themselves and what is possible are being told?

E (42:07)

Well, you know, it's interesting, cause I think everybody has their own path. And look, I obviously witnessed Halle Berry win an Oscar, you know, being the first black woman to ever do that. But I also am a person that continues to witness the Academy, not follow that up.

C (42:24)

Right.

E (42:24)

So sometimes representation can be empty. And we have to be careful not to put too much value in it, because then people feel as if they've done all they needed to do.

D (42:35)

Right. Check. It's done.

E (42:37)

Exactly. It took a while for Quinta to come after me. And then the question becomes, who follows Quinta? Which are the only two black women in that category who ever won an Emmy for outstanding writing in a comedy series? And you have to think about how long the Academy of television has been around. And then you kind of accept the reality that we live in a white leaning society. And you can let award shows people say, well, don't put too much value in awards. Sure, no, but let it be an example and a reflection of the society in which we live.

D (43:05)

Right.

E (43:05)

It's a snapshot of it.

D (43:07)

Right. Who gets right? It's a. It's a.

E (43:08)

Like, how many black women have won the Oscar for best actress?

D (43:12)

I mean, it's just, to me, one.

E (43:14)

How long have the Oscars been around?

D (43:16)

Right.

E (43:17)

Almost 100 years. Again, a reflection of society. That's all Hollywood has ever been, is a reflection of our society. But legacy, I think, can only be told by people that are not you. So with Legacy Talk with Lena Wade, it was really important for me to highlight women that have become invisible just because we live in a society. These women, these are black women or women of color. We've had our first two male guests on the show, Bill Duke and Robert Townsend coming up. But because we live in a white leaning society, again, I say that calmly and plainly. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Look at our string of presidents. How many. How many black ones do we have one grateful for it. How many presidents have we had? So, and look at. You can look at who's gonna be honored at Emmys. Who's gonna be honored? You know, it's not a lot of predominantly black cast or Latino cast or Asian cast. You know what I'm saying?

D (44:14)

Anytime you get one, then everyone gets real upset.

E (44:16)

And then because it's doing what it's starting to break a pattern and people wanna go, I mean. I mean, who was president after Barack Obama?

D (44:23)

Right.

E (44:25)

So I say this to say with legacy. And this person who I do want to speak about, Suzanne DePass, who a lot of people may not know that name, but this is a woman who. Well, she also was inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. One of the very few execs to be inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. She worked alongside. Yes, she began working for, but started to work alongside Berry Gordy. She discovered Michael Jackson and the Jackson 5. She was a producer on Mahogany. And she did so many things and her career. She also produced a really amazing TV movie that meant a lot to me and had a huge impact on me called Jackson 5 an American dream. There's those two words again.

D (45:00)

Yep.

E (45:02)

A family of, like many with very little money become royalty. And the youngest son, that one of the youngest in the group rather becomes a lot of things. He's a child prodigy, becomes one of the greatest pop stars ever, becomes a pariah. And we need all of those stages. Right. We don't get it without Suzanne DePass.

B (45:27)

Wow.

E (45:28)

So I look forward to talking to her on Legacy Talk to hear more about her story.

D (45:32)

I want to. I look forward to hearing it, too.

E (45:34)

And so it is honestly my responsibility. You talk about responsibility, somebody could argue you have responsibilities to the people that produced you. Suzanne DePass did help produce me. Just because she didn't birth me doesn't mean that I'm not sitting here because of the work that she's done.

D (45:56)

I want to ask you something. You are. You really value mentorship. I mean, I always said, what's the point of having power or platform if you're not going to use it for good? And I see you do that and going back to that point about expectation, but it's clear to me, you don't do it because you're supposed to. You do it because.

E (46:18)

Well, it's also what I've been taught by people in my life who have led by example. So I worked for Mara Brocakel, who created Girlfriends and the Game and now Forever. She did a really beautiful thing that when my time with her was up, she recommended me to Gina Prince Bythewood for me to go and be her assistant. And so I went and started working with Gina Prince Bythewood, who is the writer, director of Love and Basketball. She did Woman King. She now has Children of Blood and Bone coming. And while working for Gina, I witnessed her be a mentor to others. Again, that sort of teaching without telling. And then it came time for my time to be up with Gina, and she recommended me to a filmmaker who was making her first narrative film and she needed some support on set. And that woman was Ava DuVernay.

C (47:12)

Wow.

E (47:13)

So I have been taught by example how to lead in that way.

D (47:19)

Yeah.

E (47:20)

And so I think society teaches us a lot of things. And I love, again, Baldwin says we must vomit up all the untruths that we have been taught. You've been fed, Right?

D (47:29)

And one of those are always. People always ask me, well, why are women so? Why aren't they nice to each other? I'm like, why don't we stop saying that narrative? Because, like, right, I mean, here's the deal.

E (47:40)

I think it's odd to say women because there are people in the world that just happen to not be kind for reasons that we have to ask them. Like, how did. Because I always also have to see everybody as 8 year olds. Imagine the meanest, most vicious, most vile person you can imagine. And then think of them as an 8 year old and know that something along their journey shifted them into this being.

D (48:06)

Yeah, hurt.

C (48:07)

People hurt.

D (48:09)

Last question. So I want to go back to where we started. I love this teaching for everyone who's listening about silence. And I think silence retreats silence experiences. I think they're so powerful. What is the thing, as you came out of your last silence that taught you about, again, going back to the stage in your life that you would want to just share with people?

E (48:35)

Oh, I mean, I think the biggest thing that came out for me was everything changes, right? I mean, everything is impermanent. Everything changes. And when you realize that, you're able to accept a little bit more. Like you can say, okay, this doesn't feel really good, but. And we often say this too shall pass about things that don't feel great. Because we remind ourselves, well, this isn't forever. And if you think something is forever, that's an untruth that goes against nature. Nothing is forever. Not life, not a season, not a feeling. But we also remember that when something good is happening, this too shall pass. This is not forever. If you cling to the idea that it is, you will be disappointed. And the thing really is to observe, be aware, and not cling or create an aversion. Don't create an aversion to something that doesn't feel great and don't cling to something that does because you will only be agitated. It's a matter of just really being present. Observe it Be aware of it. Because everything that's happening to you is for your own liberation. But I also apply that to if everything is changing, social people. And there's a phrase that a lot of people sometimes wear as a badge of honor. Take me or leave me. And what I now know is because if the seasons change, people should too. And if someone says, take me or leave me, I'm going to leave you where you stand. Because I am always trying to evolve. Me too. And I think a word that we often use, which I don't think we should, is saying, I'm always trying to be better. No, I'm always trying to become myself. I want to become more of who I'm meant and destined to be. And better is sort of a very cheap word because again, what is that definition? What is better? No, who are you? And the other question is like, who do you. We talk about want? Who do you want to be? Who do you want to be? And if you want to be someone that goes against the law of nature, you have to work really hard to stay in the same place, to keep doing the same things. And we all know people, if you really sit and think, who are people that are behaving this year in the same way in which they did last year, Right?

D (51:19)

With no evolution, no growth.

E (51:21)

No growth. And we all know now evolution is real. You can deny it if you want, but it's real because you can look at, look at nature. You look at a flower that's closed. As the days go, it starts to bloom, but it can't bloom forever. It has to close again. And I think that's really such a beautiful sort of metaphor for life, is that we have to open and close. The seasons will come, it'll rain. But it's almost like being mad at the rain. It's like, oh, I hate it when it rains. That's not going to stop it from raining. So you might as well accept the fact that it's raining and know that eventually the clouds will part again.

D (52:04)

Thank you for the gift of this conversation.

E (52:06)

Thank you for creating space for it.

C (52:22)

My profound thanks, Lena Waithe for this beautiful conversation. The seventh season of the Shy is currently airing on Showtime. One last thing. Thank you so much for listening to my so called Midlife. If you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content. Like me and Shannon Watts talking about stepping away from organizations we founded. Talk about leaving a legacy. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or For all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host Reshma Sajani. Our Associate producer is Isara Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell in Karen Waltock. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oja Lopez, Jameela Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax, and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye.

E (54:10)

Foreign.

I (54:16)

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G (54:50)

to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

E (55:08)

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

G (55:17)

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