← My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
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- [00:03]
A
Hey there, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus. I'm back with a new season of Wiser Than Me, the show where I sit down with remarkable older women and soak up their stories, their humor and their hard earned wisdom. Every conversation leaves me a little smarter and definitely more inspired. And yes, I'm still calling my 91 year old mom Judy to get her take on it all. Wiser Than Me from Lemonade Media premieres November. Wherever you get your podcasts.
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It's morning in New York.
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Hey everybody, I'm Mandy Patinkin. And I'm Kathryn Grody and we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Listen to Us. Many of you have asked for our advice. Tell me what is wrong with you people. Don't listen to us. Our take it or leave it advice show is out every Wednesday, premiering October 15th. A Lemonada Media original Lemonada. Hey midlifers. Just a quick message before we get started. You can now listen to every episode of My Soul called Midlife Ad Free with Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free access to an exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Feel Better with David Duchovny and so many more. It's just $5.99 a month and a great way to support the work we do. Go ad free and get bonus content when you hit subscribe on this show and Apple Podcasts make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium. Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshmas Ajani. So midlife is a great time to take stock of your values. And Susie Welch. She thinks it's the best time to do it and she should know. Susie's an award winning NYU Stern School of Business professor, an acclaimed management researcher, and the New York Times bestselling author, most recently with Becoming youg A proven method for crafting your authentic life and career. Becoming youg is also a class she teaches at nyu. It's a methodology that I now love that helps you answer that question. What should I do with my life? And Susie says midlife is actually the perfect time to ask yourself this question because you're gonna bring wisdom to that answer. It's wild, huh? Because you think in midlife maybe your life is done, but actually it's not. It's just the beginning. She says though, that taking time to figure out your values and see how Much you are or aren't living your life in accordance with can really help you find your purpose. Maybe you've already found yours and you're living it every day. Amazing. I'd love that for you. I definitely am. And I can tell you this, it feels damn good. But here's the thing. I know many of you midlifers, you're not yet and you feel stuck and you're unsure about how to make a change and get your life back on track. Maybe you took some time away from work to just focus on raising your kids. Or maybe you're in the middle right now trying to figure out whether you need to leave this job and really find one that's gonna feed your soul. I really think that becoming you could be the tool that you've been looking for. So let's get to it. Here's my conversation with Suzy Welch. The show's called My so Called Midlife.
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B
Yes, I know all about your show. Okay, so.
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A
So we love to talk about midlife. And so I wanted to ask you, Susie, like, if there were a couple words that you would use to describe this period of your life, what would they be?
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Full, transcendent. I have just such a feeling of gratitude and plenty.
- [04:14]
A
That's beautiful. Okay, we're going to dig into that. Because you've had this pretty amazing career. I wanted to just start by asking you a little bit about your journey. Like, how'd you end up working as a journalist? What about the field that you didn't connect with? How are you now a professor? Walk me through it.
- [04:33]
B
It's a crazy life. I mean, it's. Whenever people sort of say, well, how'd you get to where you are? I'm like, how much time have you got? But I'll give you the abbreviated version of it because the twists and turns are, you know, kind of action packed. Movie thing, right? So I was a good student and a good enough athlete and I went to Harvard and I was a student of life and. But a student of life with no direction whatsoever. My parents were just not particularly engaged and they had other things going on. I mean, the new Bob Dylan album was out. I mean, they just had other stuff to do.
- [05:05]
A
Very important things. Very important things. Very important things.
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B
And so I was good at writing. So I ended and I believed a lot in community. So I ended up at the college newspaper, which was a daily newspaper, the Harvard Crimson. And one day, two guys in suits walked into the newsroom and they said, who would like to live in Miami? And unbeknownst to us, because there was no Internet. There had been a strike at the Miami Herald, and all the reporters had been fired, and they'd gotten in the company plane, and they were going from college newsroom to college newsroom. No way. Yes way. Wow. And so I was like, I don't have a job. I'll go to Miami. I'm in. I'm in. It was 1981, and Miami was beset by riots. And there was the Mary Lit, a boat lift. And it was a terrible time to be a resident of Miami.
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A
What year in school are you at this time?
- [05:53]
B
How old are you? I just graduated. I was 21 years old, and I went down to Miami. The newsroom was filled with college reporters who were ambitious and smart and filled with stuff. So I was assigned to cover crime. Now get a load of this. I had been a fine arts major in college. I'd studied Dutch art and Japanese art. And then I got to Miami, and I'd start each day in the morgue with the cop who met me there. And we went over the dead bodies. And sometimes there'd be. Sometimes there'd be 15 dead bodies. And he'd say, gunshot wound to the head. Two gunshot wounds to the neck.
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A
And are you at any moment, like, I gotta get outta here and go back to Cambridge. What am I doing here?
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No way. No way. I was like, I. I couldn't believe my good luck. I mean, we had front page stories every day. I had so many friends. I was.
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A
You were in it.
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B
I was in it. And then I was promoted to go to the Fort Lauderdale bureau and run the crime coverage there. And Fort Lauderdale was even worse in Miami when it came to crime. And I actually ended up seeing a lot more domestic violence and stuff that I still have nightmares about, honestly. And in the midst of that, I reconnected with an old boyfriend from high school who was very, very, very cute. And at the same time, I had a terrible boss. And I did the most mature, deliberate, intentional thing you could ever do, which is I got in my car and I followed the boy up north. I did.
- [07:14]
A
And how did that work out?
- [07:15]
B
I married him. We married him. We married each other as my first husband, Eric. And, you know, we got married for all the wrong reasons, but we had a lot of momentum and we knew each other really well. I mean, to this day, he's one of the oldest relationships in my life, But I. Very good friends. Very good friends. Talked to him this morning. And, I mean, he's the father of my children, right? So I yeah. So I. I went up to Boston and I got another job reporting. And that was going along very well. It was fine. I was married. I continued reporting in Boston. It was great. And then one day, one unbelievable day, my boss called me in and he said to me, what do you know about business? And I said, absolutely nothing. And he said, well, the business reporters left. And I said, well, I'm not your person. I don't know a thing about business. He said, yes, you do. What's debt? And I said, oh, come. That's when you owe somebody money. And he said, what's equity? And I said. I said, I'll have to get back to you on that. I mean, I had no clue. But he needed a warm body. He thought, she'll come up to speed. He put me in the roll covering business. And I did my first couple of press conferences covering business. And I thought, okay, this is it. For the first time in my life, I'm going to fail. I'm going to fail spectacularly. I have no idea what anyone's saying. They could be speaking Urdu. I don't know. I went to press conferences, and I remember a Wall Street Journal asking three questions in a row. And I literally thought to myself, is he speaking English? No idea. So I thought, okay, well, here's a juncture in my life. I could have a baby right now, or maybe I'll go back to business, because how intentional I was. It's the irony of me teaching career planning is just unreal, which is what I teach now. I said to myself one day, going home on the subway, maybe I'll have a baby or maybe I'll learn about business. It is sort of interesting to me. And I do really like the people in business because they're builders and they're not mean, and they. They're. I like them. They're. They're like foreign objects to me. I think they're fascinating. And so I applied to Harvard Business School on a lark. And one of the great mysteries of humankind will always remain why they let me in. But they did, and I went. And that began the sort of phase of my life that I'm still in, which is being a person who loves business and studies business and talks and thinks about business. I went to hbs. I did very well there. And so I was offered a job at Bain, the big consulting firm. I went there for seven years, and I had four children in those seven years. And. And I was. In that moment, I was recruited to go run the Harvard Business Review, which I took that job, because there was no travel. I mean, I was traveling constantly with four children under the age of six. And then I did that job, and it was going along incredibly well, except for that I got a divorce in the middle of it. But I still carried on. I mean, Eric and I ran out of steam. He met someone else. It was all good, fine, whatever. Life goes on. It wasn't good at the time. Okay. You know, but I. I became a single mother. And in that period, I was told by my boss I needed to go interview Jack Welch as he retired from ge And I went to go do that.
- [10:09]
A
And you met the love of your life?
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We fell in love.
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A
Fell in love in that first interview.
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B
Did you fall in love in the first minute? We fell in love. Really?
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A
So, like, that really exists?
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B
I didn't believe it. And if it hadn't happened to me, I still wouldn't believe it. But literally, I was.
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A
You walk in and you lock eyes, and you're like, he's the one.
- [10:24]
B
And not only that, I staggered backwards. I did. Wow. Absolutely. And get a load of this. You want to die? Because I was interviewing him. We taped that interview. I still have the tape of it. And when he was still living, on our anniversary every year, we would listen to the tape of our first interview. Because in the tape of our first interview, he literally. We were talking for 10 minutes. Same thing happened to him. I mean, it was a simultaneous thing. And in the first 10 minutes, he says to me, turn that tape recorder off. And I turned it off. And he said to me, do you have a guy? And I. So, I mean, it was a crazy thing that happened. And, you know, I got fired. It was a.
- [11:00]
A
And so, like, immediately after the interview, he asked you on a date or something?
- [11:03]
B
Yeah, we went out that night.
- [11:04]
A
Yeah, you went out that night.
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B
And then we were never apart again. Ever. Not ever. He asked me to marry him that night, so.
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A
And you were married for how many years?
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B
Well, we had to wait for him to get a divorce. That was a problem. He was separated. He was fully separated. His wife was not even living in the United States. I mean, it was a separation, but that wasn't widely known all in. We were married 19 years. Wow.
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A
And you lose your husband. You lose him?
- [11:26]
B
Yes. During COVID Yes, I did. We had a great run together. We wrote books together. I had rebuilt my career, and we had a wonderful run. He helped me raise my children. He was fantastic. The best stepfather who ever lived. And then he died March 1st. We were all there. He died at home. And it was Covid. So I went up to the woods of upstate New York with my children and their spouses and all of our dogs. And I kind of thought, this is it for me. I can't face the world without him. I mean, all. And he had said to me, susie, go get your life when I'm gone. I mean, we were able to really say goodbye and plan, but I was. Nothing prepares you. Even though he had said to me, I'm going to prepare you for this, he couldn't. And so how did he try to prepare you? Oh, like, well, he prepared me very financially for everything I needed to know. And he tried to talk to me about what my life would look like and I refused to engage. And he said to me things like, you're going to. To regret not talking to me about this. And I said to him, I refuse to do this. Like, one time he said to me, he said, are you going to go back? We had a home together because he hated the cold weather. We had a home together in Palm Beach, Florida. And he said, are you going to keep the Palm beach house? And I was like, I don't want to talk about this. He said, look, I think you're going to sell it. Let me sell it for you, because I'll get a better deal for you. And I said, jack, I'm not doing this. And so he was trying to prepare me in every possible way because he said, I had a spectacular life. How could I regret a minute of it? And I'm not gonna, you know, he was very clear eyed. He was very clear eyed. But then towards the end, I mean, he was very, very sick. So our attention turned not to planning, but just to surviving.
- [13:10]
A
Any advice to. Because there's a lot of people in our community that are. Have lost spouses and these conversations are really hard to have. Like any, I mean, looking back now, anything, any advice that you would give.
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B
Well, I. When we got the word that we had no other options, that euphemism for that we had, we. They put us on a clock. I didn't know what to do. Like, did I keep on trying to live normally or did I just stop everything and attend to him? This was a real. And his kind of desire would be that we just continue to pretend everything was normal until the end. But I, I wrote my bosses at NBC and I said, we've gotten the news that we never wanted to get and I'll see you on the other side. And I did the. And they were unbelievable. My everlasting love and loyalty to these people because they were like, we will let us know what we can do. We will see you when you get back. And I would say that if you are trying to make the decision about trying to live normally or just giving into what was happening and making yourself fully 100% available through the latter, I don't regret. I mean, there were long, long days where I did a lot of nothing. I mean, I had a little crafts cart because Jack was just laying in bed and he would say, you know, I can't stand it with you doing nothing. You know, do something, play solitaire. So I got like a little crafts cart and I would like do crafts next to him while he was laying in bed because he couldn't do much. And so but I would say I those moments were precious. I wouldn't trade them for anything.
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The other night, instead of scrolling myself into the usual doom spiral, I opened Masterclass and watched one lesson from Michael Lewis, the author of the Big Short and Moneyball. He breaks down how to take messy, complicated ideas and turn them into stories people actually understand. I've already used a few of his tips in my own writing. That's the beauty of Masterclass. You can learn from the best to become your best. Plans start at just $10 a month, billed annually, and you'll get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by world class leaders, writers, chefs and more. And the lessons actually fit in your life. They're short, they're easy to digest, and with audio mode you can turn a commute, a walk or your kitchen cleanup into learning time. Three in four surveyed members say they feel inspired every time they watch, and 88% say Masterclass has made a positive difference in their lives. And right now, the timing couldn't be better. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head to masterclass.com midlife crisis for the current offer that's up to 50% off at masterclass.com midlife crisis masterclass.com midlife crisis when it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things people truly love. Beautiful, timeless pieces they will wear for years. That is why I'm going with quints. They have something for everyone and everything is premium quality at a price that finally makes sense. Designer level sweaters at everyday prices, silk tops and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut denim for daily wear, and outerwear that actually keeps you warm. Every piece is made with premium materials from ethical, trusted factories and priced far below other luxury brands. My personal favorite is their Mongolian cashmere sweater. It feels incredible. Soft, structured and it never pills. It's the kind of quality I would expect from a $200 piece, not 50. I've been wearing mine non stop and it's holding up so well through the season. And quints makes gifting easy in every category. Their home and travel pieces round out my list and take the guesswork out of holiday shopping. Fine. Gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.commidlife for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, that is. Q U I-n c e.com midlife hello, I'm Gretchen Rubin.
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And I'm Lori Gottlieb. We're two friends, one a happiness researcher.
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And the other a therapist.
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And we are here to tackle the problems of everyday life with all of you, from big issues to small. We'll share advice and fresh perspectives, and we'll also highlight responses from you, our listeners to the questions we discuss. Whether it's that pet peeve that's been bugging you for years, a tricky dilemma, or just something you've always wondered about. We'll talk it through the since you asked podcast from Lemonada media. Premieres on September 23rd, wherever you get your podcasts.
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A
So he passes. Yeah. And then what?
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B
Went to the woods? Hid up in the woods. Covid was going on, so there wasn't much going on anyway. But then Covid ended and, and everybody, all my kids went back to their lives and I was up there in the woods with my dogs and you know, you can only walk your dogs so many hours a day. And I went, I went to the max. I mean, like, my dog Happy was a great Pyrenees. The late, great, departed Happy, but she was a great Pyrenees. And that dog, that dog is bred to be walking for like 15 hours even.
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She was like, she was like, susie, please, like, enough.
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Enough is enough. I would say, let's go for a walk and you give me side eye. And then in the middle of that, I went back to the Today show where I had been working and I liked being back on set. And I remember thinking, oh, I've got to work. I have to work. Do I want to be back on tv? I'm not so sure. I'm not sure this is what I want to be doing. But I had for, at that point, I had an idea for this class becoming you that I wanted to teach someday. And a friend wrote me and said he was teaching it stern, blah, blah, blah, blah. He was writing me about Something else entirely. And. And so I thought, oh, maybe this class. Maybe this is something I can do. So I went to go see the Dean of Stern, who I knew socially. And I said, look, I have a class that I think I could teach. I wish I had taken it when I was younger because I had the most accidental life a person could have. And I have a construct that I think will save people a lot of boneheaded wrong turns and detours. I have this idea. It's called becoming you. I walked him through the methodology of becoming you because it was a methodology. I had been developing it since I had started working.
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A
Can you tell us what it is, what the methodology is?
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Yes, with joy. All right, I will tell you about it. And he said, yes. Okay, so let me. And then I started teaching. I became a full professor, and the rest is history in my little life. So becoming you is a methodology that helps you answer the question, what should I do with my life? And it helps you in the moment because it's designed to help you have an immediate answer. But it's also like a lifelong tool that you can pull out anytime. And I've been teaching it for so long now that I've had students who've used it when they were in class, and then I've had students who've come back four years later and say, okay, now I'm really ready to use it. And what it does is it. It's based on the premise that your purpose, which is where I'd like everyone to be, because I'm in mine, and it feels damn great.
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I'm in mine, and it feels damn great, too.
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Damn great. Yep. So your purpose lies at the intersection of your deeply held values, your aptitudes as you're uniquely good at and your economically viable interests. And you have to excavate all that data, and then your purpose will emerge because it lies at the intersection. Well, here's the problem. The problem is no one knows what their values are. And in fact, most people don't even know what values are, period. Very few people know what their aptitudes are because how could you? It takes your whole life to learn what your aptitudes are unless you test for them. And finally, economically viable interest. Some people's aperture is really small, and they don't know what's out there in the world for them to do. So this is a true methodology that uses a bunch of exercises and activities to excavate your values. You come out of it with a list of your values like you've never had before in your life. It's very exciting. People. The scales fall from their eyes. You know, it's wonderful experience to watch. Then we do a lot of testing to find out your aptitudes. There's four big tests, and then we have two exercises where you figure out your economically viable interests. And then there's a process. At the end, when I teach it at NYU or when I teach it in one of my workshops on the NYU campus that's open enrollment, there's two. At the end of it, you tell the story of your life going forward for the next 40 years. Once you know your purpose, here's what it's going to look like when it unfolds. I mean, there's usually never a dry eye in the house. It's a very emotional experience to imagine what your life would look like if it was your purpose.
- [21:21]
A
Can I ask you a question? Values. It's so interesting because I really think the moment that we're in right now in our country is a real question about what are our values? Why do you think people don't spend enough time really discovering what it is?
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Yeah, I given a lot of thought to that. I mean, in the middle of this, I failed to mention I went back and got my PhD in this stuff. So values expression is my area of research, focus and of study. So I have thought a lot about why people don't talk about values with any kind of clarity or specificity. So a couple of reasons. Number one, nowhere along the way in our education are we taught what values are. It's just a vague term. You can be taught what the volume of a cylinder is, but you're not going to be taught in high school or college what values are. So at the same time, there's this dynamic where the term values has been hijacked by politics. You know, progressive values, Christian values, conservative values, family values. And so it's become like a third rail.
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A
Or it feels like when someone asks you what the question are, you're like, I believe in equality, or I believe in, like, diversity or. Right, right.
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That's right. And then, I mean, so people don't know what values are, and then they've let the zeitgeist define values. And then you're afraid if you even talk about your values in many cases, that you're gonna. If you pop your head up, you're gonna get slammed down. And can you give me a couple.
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Of examples of what values are just for our listeners?
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Right, absolutely. So values are the deeply held beliefs, desires, motivations that galvanize our actions and decisions. And there's a couple of things you need to know about values. Number one is you have a set of values, but you may not be living them. So there's felt values and there's expressed values. So let's now talk about what the values are. Let's just talk about one that people never taught people. When you ask people what their values are, they typically say family, some version of family, and some version of financial security. And then they name a virtue like equality or honesty. These are virtues. They're not values, okay? Values are deeply held beliefs and motivations that drive our actions and behaviors. So, for instance, here's a value that. That's not out there in the popular lexicon. It is of everybody who studies becoming you. But let's take this value that I call scope. Scope is a reflection of how big or small you want your life to be. Some people want a big, exciting life filled with people and experiences and learning. And even they'll take the chaos. They want to be Bianca Jagger on a white stallion going into Studio 54. You know, when they see the most interesting man in the world, those ads are like, I want to be the most interesting man in the world, okay? And then at the other end of that continuum, there's lower scope. I mean, and lower scope is like, on TikTok, there's a whole vertical for it. And it sounds like this. I like this little life, okay? It's like people who have twee Brooklyn lives where no shade. My children have twee Brooklyn lives, okay? Where life is predictable. And it is.
- [24:13]
A
You wake up, you get your cup of coffee, you send your kids to school, you go to a job, you come home, you make dinner, and that's like. You want that life.
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That's right. And you would trade some of the. You would trade a little bit of routine and maybe even boredom to know what's going on.
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For stability.
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For stability and control, okay? And steadiness. And so scope is a value.
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So scope's a big one.
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Yeah, well, it's one of the 15. I like them all equally. They're like my children.
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You like your children. You can't choose between your children. But it's like a kind of a defined. It's a. A pretty defining one. I feel like, as you talk about it.
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B
Yeah, well, so is. So are some of the other values. I mean, if you think about it, like, there's a. Look, there is a value we call family centrism. That's how much you want family to be the Organizing principle of your life. Okay? But there's a. There's a value for affluence. How much you want wealth to be the organizing principle of your life. There's achievement, which is seen. Success.
- [25:03]
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What if I want all of the value?
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Yes, that's a problem. That's a problem. Okay, so look, so here's a value. Here's a value that's huge with Gen Z. And I actually gave it a Greek name because it makes people so freaking hysterical that I have to sort of like, I took the. Tried to take some of the. Of the noise out from it. So the name of the value in my lexicon is eudaimonia. It means flourishing in Greek. It's the value of self, care, leisure, pleasure, sex. Okay? It's stuff that makes you feel good. That's eudaimonia. And 75% of my students have it as their number one value.
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No way.
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Yeah, they're just. They're 20 something. Okay? But look, look, their number two value is typically affluence, okay? So they come to me after they get their values back. So we have a test called the values bridge, which anyone can take, okay? They take a test called the values bridge, and it ranks your values from 1 to 15, and they get their values bridge results. And they say, okay, Professor Welch, I've got eudaimonia at number one, affluence at number two, and achievement at number three. Is this a problem? I say. So I say to them, where's your work centrism? So work centrism is the value of how much you actually like working. Okay? And like, I have work centrism really high. I love working. I love it. I'm bored on the weekends. I want to work. It's high value for me. I know it makes me sound a little. But that's my value. And I won't judge your values if you don't judge mine. Okay? So sometimes work centrism is down at number 13 for my students.
- [26:31]
A
Do you think if you were giving this class to a bunch of midlifers, like, it would look different?
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I have given this class to people at every age because I.
- [26:38]
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Tell me what happens when you give it to this class, like between 40s and 50s.
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B
Okay? So very typically, eudaimonia is lower. I mean, so I teach in the executive MBA program and I've taught. And as I say, I teach becoming you in the wild, as we call it, to people who are not enrolled at nyu. So I teach the oldest person who's taken the values bridge and taken becoming you is 78 years old. Okay. And so it's interesting. I can't wait. I will soon have the data of all the values by age. We're gathering that data right now. We are just very proud that, that we just have gotten a data scientist to help us with this. But I can tell you anecdotally that eudaimonia is very high in younger people. And I think that actually going forward, it will stay high because the, because the pandemic raised a lot of questions about the meaning of work in our lives. And there's a whole generation that's saying, wait a minute, we found out work doesn't have to be central. And I kind of like that. Here's the thing is that older people tend to understand that every value has a trade off. Okay. And younger people want to have it all, all at the same time. And you know what? I was just like that. I can't in any way hold it against them. One of the most common questions I get, I have a wonderful community of working mothers who are very interested in this, in the stuff that I do, because they are balancing and juggling values every single day of their lives. And so I often hear from working moms saying, look, I have a very high value of achievement. I have a very high value of work centrism. I love my work. It gives me meetings. Some of them have a very high value of we call non sibi, which is helping others, not for oneself. But I also have a high value of family centrism. I love my children. I want to be with them every day.
- [28:14]
A
This sounds like me.
- [28:14]
B
Okay. Yep. Yeah. So here's my answer. My answer is you've got two choices and two choices only. Number one, you prioritize some values over the other. Okay? You prioritize them, you rank order them, you force you. In other words, you force the values, bridge results into your own shape. You say, look, I'm gonna put family centrism first for these 10 years and so forth, and I'm gonna put the others lower.
- [28:36]
A
Yeah. To shend the ducket causes, create a diversified portfolio, right? And you're going to give like a number to each and like a percentage of time.
- [28:42]
B
Yep, yep, you are. And, and then you stop litigating it every day in your head you say, okay, I've done this, I'm going to live with it. I may not like it most days, but I made these choices and I'm living with them. And I did that because I had achievement and work centrism much Higher than family centrism. And what I did is I rank ordered families. I, I kept family centrism low and I kept work and achievement high. And I went to my four children and I said, one day you're going to grow up and be gone and, but I'm still going to be here. And that's the reason I'm going to keep working. I was a single mother at the time and I said, and I'm not giving up my career. I love you, but for these years of my life, I love you. But my kid, my job comes first. I said it to their faces.
- [29:20]
A
Has it changed though, over time? No, you would still order. So that's what I think is interesting. I guess my question is, it's funny, as you're talking, I'm just thinking that a lot of people like, I feel like for a lot of people in midlife, part of what happens, I think for women is the sense of do I need to reorder it? Because I've had it this way and I'm not happy and I know we're gonna. Right, that's not your favorite one.
- [29:43]
B
No, no. I want to tell you this. They're not reordering them. Your values are your values and they're pretty stable. What you're doing is you're allowing yourself to express them more. You've always had these values. So sometimes in life what you're saying is I have been repressing my value of achievement for five years. I have been repressing my value of say, agency, that self deter for seven years. And what happens in midlife is you're like, the reordering that is going on is not how much the value matters to you or not. It's about how much permission you're giving yourself to live it. Okay.
- [30:18]
A
Oh, I love that. I love that because. Right. Like I've always had a value of pleasure. Who doesn't?
- [30:23]
B
Right. It's not my top thing, but I get it. I get it.
- [30:28]
A
No, it's not. I mean it's not my top thing, but, but it's something that I'll be honest, Susie, I think about when I watch my boys play, I'm like, ah, I love, I want to be able to play. Right. And just when I tennis clinic and I have fun and I get the thing and I'm like, ah, right. It's like so it is in me to want that, but it is where you're saying, where does it sit on the list of priorities and, and, and where and how I'm Prioritizing that at what moments in my life do I feel more freedom to do that?
- [30:56]
B
Yeah. One of the cool things about the values bridge that I love so much is that not only does it give you a rank ordering of your values, it tells you which ones are in conflict and how much. So you actually get a score that says these values are in conflict. And this is the pain point for you. It's like 11 out of this scale. And then the other thing it tells you is, okay, we now know your values. Here's how much you're living them in comparison, and you get this variance score. I mean, it's a fascinating thing because you already know in your gut, you know, how far you're living from your authentic life. But to see it quantified is quite the moment. It's quite the moment. And I think actually, the earlier in our lives, even before midlife, the earlier we know that that disconnect, the better. What if the justice system wasn't just about punishment? What if it could support more productive lives, healthier families, and stronger communities?
- [32:02]
A
We change the quality of life in the neighborhood.
- [32:04]
B
Homicides about 44% in the first couple of years. I'm your host, Ana Zamora, and I'll.
- [32:10]
A
Show you what a better justice system.
- [32:12]
B
Actually looks like, because it's already happening. Season two of When It Clicked from Lemonada Media is available December 10th. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [32:34]
A
I want to talk a little bit about spirituality, but I want to start by asking you. Tell me about Susie the swan.
- [32:41]
B
Okay. Susie Swan is okay. So after Jack died, I was trying to figure out who I was and who I was as a single person. I'd never been single my whole life long, really. I have a place right outside of New York in the countryside. An old farmhouse that I go to to hear myself think in the weekends and to write and so forth. And it has a little pond on. And it. It. And a year after Jack died, a little bit longer than that, I was walking my dogs around the pond. I'm a big dog person. And there was this single swan on the pond. And I was like, what? Swans are always. They mate for life. Swans are always in pairs. And so I was very curious. I didn't know what this swan was doing there. And I kind of, like, stared at her, and she stared back at me. Well, one thing led to another, and she stayed. And I. I did this wacky thing. I named her after myself. I was like, it's Susie. Susie the swan. And I did it partially to sort of prank My children who would freak out when they were visiting me, and I would say, look, there's Susie, the swan. And they would say, like, mom, it's really.
- [33:45]
A
They thought, you're losing it freaky for.
- [33:47]
B
You to name a swan. But she became so familiar with me and my dogs that every single time we walked around the pond, she would come right out and greet us. And she would swim around the pond as we walked around the pond. And I grew over identified with her, and I really loved her and felt like, wow, she's taking on the world by herself. In fact, one time, a friend was visiting and she saw the single swan on my pond, and she said, did you place that swan there? And I said, no, God did. And I really felt that way. I felt like this was God's message to me. You can do this. And I felt truly God was speaking to me through the swan. Okay, so whatever. Take it or leave it. Well, one day I woke up and I went down, and almost immediately I could sense she was gone. And she had been with me for a few years at that point. And I, like, started frantically running around the pond saying, susie, Susie. And I looked at all her favorite places and. And the dogs were like. I was like, screaming at the dogs in really quite a mental state. Where is she? Help me find Susie. If you had had a videotape of this, you would have, like, had you committed. And I was so worried about her. And I ran into the house after. She was clearly not there. And I ran to Chatgpt and I said, I typed in frantically, there's been a swan who's always lived on my pond, and she's gone. Where has she gone? When will she be back? I mean, it was sad. And Chatgpt sort of pulsed, pulsed. And then it came back and it said, swans are very committed to where they are. It's very unusual for swan to be alone in the first place. Swans will leave when they feel threatened by, you know, some kind of animal or if there have been loud noises. And I thought, oh, my God, of course, it was the 4th of July, the night before, and there had been huge fireworks not far from my house in town. And she must have been terrified, and she left. And so this started this period of mourning for me, waiting for Susie to come back. And I was only there every weekend, but she never did come back. And I finally had to reckon with the fact that she was gone. And it made me ask a lot of questions about whether the time had come for me to redefine myself away.
- [35:53]
A
From Being a widow, I'm a big animal person too. And I lost my soul dog about a year ago.
- [35:58]
B
Oh, I'm sorry.
- [35:59]
A
And yeah, I know you can appreciate and empathize with that, but I think that's right. I feel like animals are also attuned, especially when they're there for a purpose. I think they know when to leave you. And it's often like a sign, right, that, like, it's time for us to also move on or.
- [36:18]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think I got to the point where one day I thought, I'm happy she's gone. I'm happy she went to her new life, because I'm going to take that as a sign that it's okay. I think I had. I. I'll always be a widow, but I had over identified with my widowhood and I had. It was. Was it when I think it was time, maybe even overdue time for me to stop my very proactive mourning.
- [36:45]
A
Have you already or no.
- [36:47]
B
Look, I think about my husband every single day and I miss him every day, but I am no longer kind of in the state of active mourning. I mean, it's been more than five years. And I mean, I miss him. I miss him and I think about him and sometimes I think to myself, what a rip. What a ripoff that he's gone. I got screwed. I miss him so much. And a lot of times I get really mad, like, I really need his help right now. I really could use his help on this and that. And he was. The holidays are hard and stuff, but I'm not. It was truly the center of my identity for the first three years. And then you have a moment where you have to say, I'm gonna. I choose to live. He would have wanted me to live.
- [37:23]
A
He would have wanted you to. Yeah, he would have wanted you to. How's your faith and spirituality helped you?
- [37:29]
B
Well, I'm a faithful person. I'm a Christian, and I am. I think that I don't know any life without it. Okay. So when Jack was dying, my faith was unbelievably present for me. When he died. It was. It didn't swoop in and say, oh, now. I mean, every. I sort of conceptualized and understood everything through my faith anyway. So in general, I find it to be quite a personal thing. And as a professor, I'm very limited in what I can say about it. But sometimes when my students are feeling so lost and filled with. With sort of a lack of purpose, I wish that I could speak to them about it more candidly.
- [38:10]
A
And say, you know, I do, too. I'm a woman of faith. And I feel like. I think we're in a moment where God could really give people a hand. Right?
- [38:21]
B
I know. Well, he would love to. You know, you have to sort of extend your hand, too. And I agree with you. I mean, I. Up against, you know, I. So I. One of the. One of the values on the values bridge test is what we call cosmos, which is your faith. And I was scared of including faith in my values inventory because I thought, oh, it's been so politicized. And then in all the focus groups, people said, where's faith? My faith is my number one value. And it's interesting. I typically see it skew as your top value or your last value. I mean, for people for whom their faith is important in their life, it's number one.
- [38:58]
A
Does it increase in midlife or. There's no correlation. You think.
- [39:02]
B
You can go express your value? I mean, I think it might be in you. And then you let yourself express. Explore it in midlife and express it. You can be, you know, when you're young, it's very hard to be faithful, because unless you're in a faith community, there's not a lot of love for your faith. I mean, I remember when I was young and I would speak about, like, even when I was in college, and I would talk about my faith or I would go to church on Sundays, be people like, what is with her? I mean, it's not. I mean, here up in the. In the Northeast, it's different in different parts of the country. So.
- [39:31]
A
Yeah. I want to ask you one last thing. So tell me what scarephoria is. Am I saying it right? I loved you talking about this.
- [39:38]
B
I love making up words, I think. So Scare foria is an important word for the becoming you process. Because, look, scarephoria is that moment where you're scared, but you're euphoric, okay? And to me, that's where growth occurs. You have. Growth does not occur in your comfort zone. If only. Wouldn't it be marvelous if we all grew when we were comfy in our warm bath? But scarephoria happens. You know, growth happens when we put ourselves out there. And the scary part is you're definitely pushing your limits. And the euphoria part is like, if it happens, how great would it be? I mean, I've just spent five years in scarephoria. You know, I took. I started a whole new career. You know, I started teaching. I remember the first day I walked in. Teach becoming you In a, you know, in a classroom at nyu, thinking to myself, what in the world made you think you could do this? I was scared, but I was like giddy with the, with the hopefulness of what it could possibly be. And along the way I've met some amazing people. I've been involved deeply in my students lives. I've, you know, just. So many things have happened, but it was because I stepped into my fear.
- [40:43]
A
And it feels. You feel so damn. So for. To end, you know, for midlifers who have no idea what we're talking about. Cause I know exactly that is like what I call like living at the edge of your ability.
- [40:53]
B
Right.
- [40:54]
A
And like success, right. You're just like, you know, like, I think like athletes always live like at that ability. Right at the edge of their ability. Right. They have to and they have to. And it's like it is. And I always, when I'm too comfortable, I make myself do something that makes me feel that way again. If you've never felt that way before, what's your advice to people of how to get there, what to do?
- [41:18]
B
I think it's, don't go for a big swing. Just try a little tiny thing that feels a little bit scary. I mean it the minute you. And you know what, if you fail, you fail and you realize you're not gonna die. I mean, that's.
- [41:30]
A
Look at my sweatshirt. Celebrate failure.
- [41:32]
B
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And I mean, people ask me like sometimes I'll be asked like, what was your biggest failure? And I was like, how much time do you have? I mean, I am a person who is, I live at the edge all the time. Because when I, the first time I got fired, which is after I met Jack, I thought it was gonna be the end of my life, but it was the beginning. And once you've had that experience, you understand that, that nothing goes wrong when you fail. People just like you better because you're more human. And so I'd say try something small that you might fail at and, and just see what happens. Don't go for the big swing first because that's hard.
- [42:11]
A
Well, this is such a great conversation. I really appreciate, you know, all, all of what you. I feel like you've taught us today. I'm going to really be thinking, going back to your methodology and really looking in on my, on my values because I think it's, it's a really, I think it's a really important thing to assess in midlife.
- [42:29]
B
Well, I agree with you 100. I think midlife is maybe the best time to start assessing it because it's the you bring to it the wisdom of your years.
- [42:36]
A
That's right. That's right. Well, thank you so much, Susie for this wonderful conversation.
- [42:39]
B
My pleasure.
- [42:48]
A
Thank you so much, Susie for talking with me today. Her latest book is called Becoming the Proven Method for Crafting your Authentic Life and Career. One last thing, thank you so much for listening to my so Called Midlife. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. Because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like me and Dr. Sharon Malone talking about what drives healthcare disparities in the US that you won't here anywhere else. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com. don't miss out. Thanks and we'll be back next week. I'm your host Rashma Sajani. Our associate producer is Isara Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Tease. This year this series is sound design by Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltok. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oha Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax, and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium.
- [45:20]
B
Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier? Healthier more productive, and more creative. I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.
- [45:38]
A
That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer.
- [45:41]
B
And producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.