Revisit: The Future I Dreamed of with Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

Summary

Podcast Summary: My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani – Episode featuring Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

Introduction

In this compelling episode of My So-Called Midlife, hosted by Reshma Saujani, listeners are introduced to Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. The conversation delves deep into Justice Jackson's illustrious career, her personal life, and her insightful perspectives on navigating midlife with grace and purpose. Drawing from her memoir, Lovely One, Jackson shares poignant stories that highlight the intersections of her professional achievements and personal challenges.

Career and Achievements

Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's journey to the Supreme Court is nothing short of inspirational. Saujani highlights Jackson's impressive trajectory, noting her tenure at Harvard Law, clerkships across all federal judiciary levels, and roles in private practice and public defense. Jackson is celebrated as the first Black woman and the first public defender to serve on the Supreme Court.

Notable Quotes:

• "Midlife for me feels like more freedom than I really anticipated. I feel like I've had this really big vision for my life... midlife is starting to see all of the fruits of that labor." (01:18)
• "You're close enough to me that I don't have to go through the motions of talking to you just to make sure that you still think that I like you or whatever." (13:19)

Family and Parenting

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Jackson's personal life, particularly her role as a mother. She candidly discusses raising her daughter, Talia, who was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder in seventh grade. Jackson reflects on the challenges and revelations that came with this journey, emphasizing the importance of embracing one's child for who they are.

Notable Quotes:

• "She needs to be who she is, and it's not up to us to shape or frame or change her in any way." (23:48)
• "If I really had understood what she was going through, I would have quit. But by the end, your daughter's thriving..." (24:44)

Midlife Experiences

Reshma Saujani and Justice Jackson explore the concept of midlife, discussing feelings of aging, balance, and the pursuit of dreams. Jackson shares her experiences of feeling the weight of her responsibilities, both as a Supreme Court Justice and as a mother, while also striving to maintain her personal aspirations, such as her dream to act on Broadway.

Notable Quotes:

• "It's liberating because you can decide what you think is right... and confining because there's really no next step for you as a justice." (30:12)
• "Bloom where you are planted and the fruits of your labor will eventually pay off." (27:07)

Kindness and Relationships

A central theme of the conversation is the role of kindness in maintaining relationships and fostering a supportive environment. Jackson emphasizes that kindness stems from humility and a recognition of one's blessings. She recounts a powerful story from her college graduation speech, underscoring the significance of words and the impact they can have on others.

Notable Quotes:

• "Kindness is a function of humility... I have the things that I have and I'm in the position that I'm in." (34:06)
• "Our words were significant, that they meant things to other people and to be kind to the people that we interacted with." (35:13)

Boundaries and Self-Care

Navigating a demanding career while maintaining personal well-being is another critical topic discussed. Jackson shares strategies for setting boundaries, such as being selective about commitments to preserve her energy and making time for personal hobbies like crafts and boxing. She underscores the importance of self-care in sustaining both professional excellence and personal fulfillment.

Notable Quotes:

• "I now am very selective because if it's an event that's going to be during a court week, I know I'm going to have so much energy and focus that I have to devote to my day job." (15:32)
• "You have to make it. When I'm getting overwhelmed, I try to take a few minutes and work on some crafts project that I started a long time ago." (28:16)

Final Insights and Conclusions

As the conversation draws to a close, Jackson reflects on her blessings and the responsibilities that come with her achievements. She encourages listeners, especially women facing midlife challenges, to hold onto their ambitions while remaining present in their current stages. The dialogue concludes with an uplifting message about the continual pursuit of dreams and the importance of kindness in all facets of life.

Notable Quotes:

• "You have to hold on to that ambition, don't abandon it. But you do have to focus on where you are right now." (27:07)
• "If you have a big dream, if you have a dream, even if it's as big as Broadway, don't ever give up on it." (43:54)

Key Takeaways:

1. Lead with Kindness: Emphasizing the importance of humility and the impact of our words on others.
2. Set Boundaries: Being selective with commitments to maintain personal well-being and professional focus.
3. Pursue Your Dreams: Encouraging the continuous pursuit of personal and professional aspirations, no matter how grand.

Conclusion

This episode of My So-Called Midlife offers a profound exploration of balancing career, family, and personal aspirations. Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's insights provide valuable lessons on resilience, kindness, and the relentless pursuit of one's dreams amidst the complexities of midlife.

---

Note: Timestamps in quotes correspond to their positions in the transcript and are marked with (#) for reference purposes.

Transcript

[Reshma Saujani]

Hey, Choice Words listeners. Sam Bee here. Guess what? We are back with a brand new season of Choice Words from Lemonada Media. Each week I'll chat with amazing guests like Kerry Washington, Laura Dern and Nick Offerman to dive into the biggest choices they've ever made. We are talking career shaping, history, changing life defining decisions. As someone who has made my own fair share of questionable choices. Hello Bangs. I am pumped to share these funny, poignant, all too relatable stories with you. Season 2 of Choice Words is out now. Tune in wherever you get your podcasts. You won't wanna miss it. Hi, I'm Erykah badan.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I'm the CEO of Food52. I used to be the CEO of Barstool Sports and I am very excited.

[Reshma Saujani]

That I'm launching a podcast.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

This is a new podcast that navigates the highs, lows and in betweens of that very thing that consumes all of our days Work.

[Reshma Saujani]

Join me week as I candidly share my thoughts on what's great about work.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

What'S terrible about work, and what you need to know to make work work for you.

[Reshma Saujani]

Work is out now available wherever you get your podcasts. Lemonade.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Midlife for me feels like more freedom than I really anticipated. I feel like I've had this really big vision for my life and that the 42 and a half years have been, you know, not planting a handful of seeds, but planting like enormous bags of seed. And I feel like midlife is starting to see all of the fruits of that labor.

[Reshma Saujani]

Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajani. When I think about someone in my life, a person who planted the seeds for their future, it's today's guest, Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. Justice Jackson is so impressive. After graduating from Harvard Law, she clerked at all three levels of the federal judiciary. She worked in private law practice, was the vice chair and commissioner on the US Sentencing Commission, and she served as a federal public defender. From the time she was a little girl, she hoped one day that she'd be appointed to the Supreme Court. And guess what? It happened. In her midlife, she made her dream come true. She's the first black woman and the first public defender to sit on the high court. Justice Jackson is also my friend. She recently wrote a memoir, Lovely One, which brought me to tears more than once. In it, she's just so honest about the obstacles she faced. And so in today's Interview. I wanted to talk to her about the love she's invited in her life to make it possible and how she centers kindness in literally everything she does. A kindness that is so key to helping her balance her two daughters, her career, her marriage, and her health. Justice. Jackson, welcome to my so Called Midlife.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm delighted. How are you? I'm so good.

[Reshma Saujani]

How are you?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I'm good. I miss you.

[Reshma Saujani]

I miss you, too. And now the term started, right?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It's starting Monday. Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, thank you so much for doing this.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I'm delighted to do this.

[Reshma Saujani]

So I don't know about you, I got out of bed this morning and I'm like, my whole body hurts. I'm getting old.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

And I want to know one moment last week where you really felt your age, too.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, my goodness. I have felt my age a lot lately with all the travel related to the book. You've been down and you drop a pin and you can't really get there as easily as you used to. And in the mornings, as you say, I used to be a morning person, just literally jump up out of bed like, no need for an alarm. And now I'm struggling.

[Reshma Saujani]

I want to start talking about the lovely one.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

So the book begins with all of these incredible stories about your grandparents and your parents. And, you know, as a daughter of immigrants, my parents came here as refugees. Like, I just, it really resonated with me, the values. Right. How you were raised and the closeness of everyone. What's the one thing that your parents really taught you?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, I have to say, I think it would be that I have a voice and that I should use it. My father went back to law school when I was little. I was three, four years old, living on the campus of the University of Miami Law School with my dad across the table from me, studying in our kitchen. And my parents never really spoke to me in sort of baby talk. They always talked to me in full sentences. And I recall my dad asking me little questions about various things that he was learning and wanting to know my opinion. And so it kind of gave me a sense from very young that I was a part of this family, that I had an opinion that I could express. And I think it really relates to the. The time in which I was born relative to American history. And my parents, as African Americans, they had grown up in a period of segregation where their life prospects were limited by law. And I was born within 5, 6 years of the Civil Rights act and the Voting Rights act and the End of segregation. And I think that my parents really saw it as a window opening, you know, the opportunities that they didn't get to have. And so they wanted to position me to take advantage of everything. Everything. And so they loved me and they poured into me and they trained me and. And I think it was the power of my own voice and the ability to speak out.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, I love that. And there's something about that scene of you sitting at the table, your feet barely touch the ground, your father studying for law. And what's so powerful about that point? Your mom at that point is the breadwinner, Right. She's supporting your dad's dreams. And at that point, they're in the middle of their life.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

They're in their midlife, Right?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

And their commitment to one another's hopes, dreams, successes, it reminded me so much of you and Patrick. And what were the things that you learned watching them in their relationship that you incorporate in your relationship now?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes. Well, my parents were such great partners and have been throughout their 50 plus years of marriage. And, you know, Patrick's parents have been married for a similar length of time. And I think we just got really good role models around the sacrifices and the give and take and the support that is necessary to sustain a relationship like a marriage.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And it's not always easy.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Exactly.

[Reshma Saujani]

You have to make compromise. I want to come to that. So you. You married your first love, Right. You met Patrick. Wow. Right.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

You date for seven years, and now you're married for 28 goals. What's your secret?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, my goodness. You know, I think one thing is that we were really good friends early on, that we really got to know each other very well. And that helped, I think, as we started to hit those rough spots and I think, you know, being friends with him. So on our wedding rings, we have inscribed, today, I will marry my friend.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's so beautiful. So Patrick is a surgeon, so he's got a big job. I mean, you both have these highly demanding, incredibly stressful jobs. And I'm gonna ask you a question about how you don't get angry because. And I bring that up. Cause there's a scene in your book. You're in labor with Talia, right?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

Patrick gets paged and looks at you and says, I'll be right back. And for a minute you're like, is this really happening right now?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

So true. And I've not let him live that down for 20 something years.

[Reshma Saujani]

I mean, I'll get you.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You know, I mean, I think at the Beginning it was really, really hard, especially when the girls were little and they needed so much. And he had this demanding career that required him to be away for so long. I remember when I brought that infant baby home from the hospital. Patrick was still in residency. And it was brutal. I mean, it was really brutal. And there were times when I felt, you know, resentful and angry. But then, you know, I took a step back and understood that he was doing this in part for us, for our family. He needed to get to a point in his career where he could have more flexibility. And that was going to require him putting in the hours now. And similarly, you know, there were periods in my career where I had to really buckle down. And he was the one who supported a lot of our family activity. When I was clerking for the Supreme Court, for example, he would bring me lunch and dinner at the court. He would do, you know, drive me in because I was actually pregnant at the end of my clerkship. And so there's definitely been a give and take, but with a mutual understanding and respect for our. And our roles.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And I love that your book really details that I remember. Cause I watched a movie about RBG and their relationship reminded me so much of yours. I remember, like, turning to my husband, like, why can't you be more like him? Because there's this perception, right. That only one person is sacrificing to get that big job. And it's so clear, as you describe in the book, that you're both actually negotiating, changing the pace of your career. You both are.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Right.

[Reshma Saujani]

In order to show up at home and show up for your career, how did you invite that kind of support? Because sometimes when someone loves you like that, believes in you like that, it's hard.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yeah. I mean, it's.

[Reshma Saujani]

It.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I. I'm not. This is not to say that building a life with someone who has similar dreams and aspirations and a lot going on professionally is an easy thing. And it is hard at times to be the one who's out in front and who is being doted on in. In that way.

[Reshma Saujani]

I also think it's, you know, for some people, it's hard to accept that kind of love. And I feel like it comes a lot from your parents, too, because they loved you fiercely like that as well.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes, I absolutely believe that. You know, from a very, very young age, my parents were very intentional about encouraging me to do whatever I wanted to do. And I think, therefore, I was more able and willing to accept that same kind of support from my partner when.

[Reshma Saujani]

He Came along and attract that, too.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes, exactly.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. Ketanji, how do you still stay friends? I think about this. Nahal and I are best friends. Like, he is my best friend, but, like, with the kids and the dog and like, our careers, it's hard. It's hard. I actually don't know the last time we had a date night. So how do you now continue to stay best friends?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You know, I think you give each other grace. I think you realize that you're going through a period of time in which these other pursuits, whether it's, you know, family or work, are going to take up an enormous amount of time. It's sort of like the friendships that I have with some of my longtime girlfriends that we might go a couple weeks without, you know, touching base. But we know we need that not to have the pressure of having to communicate consistently. And then we just pick up where we've left off when we. When we. One of us surfaces. So similarly, I mean, there. You're going to just need to think about the fact that there are other things that you both are committed to doing and that you want to do together and not put so much pressure on yourself to continue with the date nights, you know, et cetera. Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's almost like having the security and the ability to stay present. What are your tips?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I don't know that I have that many tips, but, you know, what you just said reminds me of when I get home and I'm exhausted, and when he gets home and he's exhausted and we're just sitting on the couch and not feeling the pressure to have to intervene, entertain each other. That's when we feel like we're really close. You know, you're close enough to me that I don't have to, like, go through the motions of talking to you just to make sure that you still think that I like you or whatever.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's such a big thing. Right. It's why I'm. I mean, it's why I feel like I have, like, five friends, because these are the friends I can go on vacation with and not talk. Right. Like, it's like we're just in each other's presence, and that's it. It's like we're so close that we. That we have almost like the security. Yeah, it's. So it's a really important thing, I think, for young people to know about, like, the success of marriage is about just being able to just exist with one another.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes, absolutely.

[Reshma Saujani]

So how, though, do you also create boundaries? You said you're A people pleaser. And so how have you and the family created these kind of boundaries?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, we're still working on it. It's a work in progress. You know, I'm only. This is my third year on the court, so we are trying to figure out the new shape of our lives in this way. I think what I've tended to do is just only agree to do things that I know are going to expose me when I am willing to be exposed. So in other words, you know, I get asked to do a lot of things and I couldn't possibly do them all. And I now am very selective because if it's an event that's going to be during a court week, for example, I know I'm going to have so much energy and focus that I have to devote to my day job that I'm not going to be able to be available for the people that are talking to me during this event. So I'll probably say no. I pick and choose the things to try to preserve my energy because when I'm at the thing, I know I have to be available.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And you want to be.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And I want to be. Absolutely.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's really smart. That's a really good. That's a really good t. Like a really good tip. Because I think that that's. It makes you almost feel better about saying no.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

That's exactly.

[Reshma Saujani]

As a midlifer, I'm excited about aging, but we're constantly bombarded with tips and tricks on how to have better sleep, what foods to eat, and how to keep your brain young. It's hard to know what's actually helpful. So I was so excited to see the new Masterclass series on brain health where we can learn science backed tips from the world's leading brain experts. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 plus of the world's best. For just $10 a month billed annually, a membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every instructor. And you can access Masterclass on your phone, computer, smart tv, or even in audio mode. Through Masterclass, you can learn the art of home cooking with Alice Waters, develop a daily meditation practice with mindfulness pioneer Jean Kabet Zinn, and learn to redefine feminism with Gloria Steinem. I wanted to know how to combat brain fog and how to improve my sleep and anxiety, so the Masterclass series on brain health did the trick. I learned all the essential tips and foods that can help my mood and focus. I can already feel the difference. I'm able to be more present every day with my family. Don't wait another moment to start your learning journey with Masterclass. Plus, every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] midlifecrisis that's 15% [e-mail] midlifancrisis masterclass.com midlifecrisis if you're like me, you love a little luxury. You also don't want to pay that luxury price tag. So what's a midlifer to do? Shop at Quince. That's why Quince is my go to for luxury essentials at affordable prices. Quince offers a range of high quality items at prices within reach. They've got everything from washable silk tops and dresses to super chic Mongolian cashmere sweaters to 14 karat gold jewelry. I just got a new pair of jeans from Quince and I don't know about you, but I have a really hard time finding jeans that work for me. Some brands fit so well and others well. They can just be so unflattering. What the heck? Anyway, when I tried on these jeans I was amazed. I love the way they fit and looked and they're so comfortable. Plus they were only 50 bucks. I still don't know how to style wide leg jeans, but that's an issue for another day and another Quince shopping opportunity. Give yourself the luxury you deserve with quinte. Go to quince.com midlife for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com midlife to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com midlife I want to talk about your girls. I was so moved reading about your beautiful daughter Talia. And I want to read from your book. You say upon hearing from her official diagnosis with autism spectrum disorder, you wrote we could end our denial now. We could stop finally resisting the shape of things, stop desperately imagining some other dream of the future and embrace the potential of what was. And I found your words so powerful. You're talking about your daughter. But I couldn't help thinking about the power of this mindset for so many of the challenges we face in life.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

Can you tell me about how you came to this wisdom and what it felt like for you putting it into action?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, you know, it didn't come easily for sure. You know, one of the things I talk about in the book is all the struggles. You know, my daughter was not diagnosed as autistic until seventh grade. And right before kindergarten, she had her first seizure that I talk about in the book. Very dramatic for us. Traumatic in a lot of ways. And between, you know, kindergarten and seventh grade, there were years of trying to figure out how to support her, what was going on. There were misdiagnoses. There were times where we had her tested, and people said, no, she doesn't have, you know, neurological differences. And so there were many, many, many hard nights and days to try to assess how to parent this very unusual kid. And so the moment that you read what you were referencing was the exhale that came after finally getting confirmation of what we thought could be going on and the permission to recognize that this is who she is. And now we have a way forward in how to support her, how to help her, how to help her grow into her best self.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

All the hard times, the prior times, kept us thinking, well, if we could just find, you know, the. The magic bullet, the secret sauce, then she could go on and be like we are. You know, I mean, I think the thing that happens to a parent very naturally is that you have this baby, this beautiful baby, and you start envisioning all the wonderful things that they are going to be and do. And many of them at times are patterned after you. Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

And how you were raised. Right.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

How you were raised and who you are. And then if it's not turning out like that, you start feeling like you're doing something wrong. And I think we missed that. There's really nothing that we can do that she has to be who she is, and it's not up to us to shape or frame or change her in any way.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And you say that in the book, you said you were harder on your daughter than you should have been, harder on yourself than you should have been.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes. Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

What do you mean by that? And, like, what do you wish you did differently?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, one of the things that my parents did that I think was so successful for me was that they set high expectations and they encouraged me to achieve them. So my mother used to say, you know, I complain. I don't want to do this. I don't want, you know, I can't do this. She would say, I'm sorry, Ketanji, has this been done before?

[Reshma Saujani]

I know.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I love that. Has a person done this? If a person has done this thing, then you can do it, too. And that was sort of her mindset and Their mindset. And I was such a pleaser that I would work and work and work and finally achieve whatever it was. And that was my model for parenting. And what I tried to do. When my daughter would say, you know, I can't do this. I'm not, you know, and she would cry and be upset, and I would say, no, no, sweetie, you got it. You can do it.

[Reshma Saujani]

You know, has someone else done it? Exactly right.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And I didn't really appreciate that because of who she is. Uniquely, there were things that were going to be so challenging for her that that same model of parenting was not going to work.

[Reshma Saujani]

Right.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I regret in a way that I didn't see earlier that she needed a different way.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. But you did learn that you can't parent both your child the same way.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

That's true. That's true. Every child is different. Our daughters ended up going to different schools throughout most of their lives because they were different environments. And we have different kids, you know, and you have to let your children reveal themselves to be who they are.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. And it's so hard not to imprint. I always say, maybe God didn't give me daughters because it would have been so hard for her. Right. In my expectations. Whereas I got two boys. I'm like, it could be whatever. You know what I mean? One of the things that you said in your book, also, I think it was so powerful. You said, if I really had understood what she was going through, I would have quit. But by the end, your daughter's thriving, like, everything works out. But just imagine if you quit, we would not have you on the Supreme Court right now. That's true.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I mean, it is true. But I guess I wanted to really be transparent about the challenges. I mean, part of my writing all of these things is that I hope that other parents and people who are going through similar struggles will understand that it's not just them that, you know, successful people, people who've gotten to do things professionally that they want to do, have also been through some things, and that maybe that'll be motivation to just keep going, because you can combine a successful career with a family life and even one that has challenges.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. We make it so hard for women to be moms and have dreams. Right. To feel like you're a devoted mother and a really great judge. You know, were there moments where you had some doubt that you just couldn't. You weren't going to be able to do both things?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, absolutely. You know, in the book, I talk about how many different jobs I've held From, you know, the moment of ending my clerkships and having my daughter, the first daughter, to, you know, getting on the Supreme Court, I had like, you know, a dozen different jobs because I was looking for the kind of work environment that would enable me to be fulfilled, but also there for my family. Early on, for example, I actually shifted to non litigation position, to doing some mediation work, which I really didn't like that much because it was not what I was trained to do. And I remember thinking, okay, okay, well, that's it. You know, this is going to be what I do for the rest of my life. Because it was not clear what the path was to get back into the kinds of legal work that I was interested in. But, you know, things work out. You know, when you work hard and you believe and you have faith, things work out.

[Reshma Saujani]

I think a lot of women still have admissions in midlife, but they're not sure how to get there because they're overwhelmed by life. What advice do you have for them?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I think you have to hold on to that ambition, don't abandon it. But you do have to focus on where you are right now. It's sort of like a two prong strategy. Know that you can get there, that it is worth continuing to think about and planning for and trying to do that long term goal. But to the extent possible, be present with the stage that you were in and try to find enjoyment where you are. You know, I used to have a placard on my wall that said, bloom where you are planted. And that reminded me that even though I knew I wanted to do this big thing, I'm planted here right now. And so I'm gonna give it my all where I am.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's really powerful. There's a scene in your book that I really resonated with. Right. You're coming home from work, you're about to do the second shift, right?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

And you pull up into the Safeway parking lot and you just take a nap for 20 minutes. I do this too. Not in the Safeway parking lot, but lock myself in my room. Do you still do that now? Now you're in a lifetime appointment. You're holding the entire country on your shoulders. Your girls are grown, but they still need you. Patrick, you know what I mean? You still have your, your parents. We both have aging parents. How do you still find time for yourself?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You know, you have to make it. When, when, when I'm getting overwhelmed, I try to take a few minutes and work on some crafts project that I started a long time ago. And haven't fin. I'll do a row of crochet. You know, I like the early mornings. I'm actually a morning person, and so I'll set my clock a little bit early, actually, and allow me to have the quiet of the morning. And I hired a boxing trainer, which I highly recommend.

[Reshma Saujani]

You told me about this. Tell me more.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, no, I mean, you have to stay physically fit. I feel like so much of one's ability to deal with the pressures psychologically and emotionally also is connected to your physical stamina.

[Reshma Saujani]

Are you boxing every day?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

No, no. Once a week. He comes to the court.

[Reshma Saujani]

Oh, I love it.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

He comes to the court.

[Reshma Saujani]

Is there a boxing ring in the court?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

There's a. No, it's not a ring. It's a gym. It's our gym. We reserve the gym for an hour.

[Reshma Saujani]

Oh, my God. That's incredible. Is it hard to be in a lifetime appointment?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You know, it is and it isn't. I mean, it's sort of. It's both liberating and confining at the same time in a way, because.

[Reshma Saujani]

Tell me. Tell me how those two things fit.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It's liberating because you can decide what you think is right, do what you think is right, and not worry about your, you know, job or fortunes or whatever. And I think that's sort of the point of having lifetime appointments. It's confining because especially this job. There's really no next step for you as a justice. And so I'm used to kind of having a job and moving on after three or four years and so kind of knowing that this is it.

[Reshma Saujani]

No, we're not. You're not allowed to leave.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Knowing that this is it, you know, is a little. It feels like the walls can close in pretty quickly in that way. But it's important to continue to do the work and to know that you're making progress even. Even in. In a position like this.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's like midlife liberating and confining.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes, exactly.

[Reshma Saujani]

Good metaphor for midlife. I rely too much on others when it comes to my financial life. My dad used to do my taxes, and now it's my husband. And I know it's time to take things into my own hands. And I can do that with Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness apple that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you've got is spare change. I love that Acorns kind of demystifies investing. It can feel super overwhelming and having Acorns there to do the hard part so I can give my money a chance to grow is so amazing. Sign up now and join the over 13 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com midlife or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor view important [e-mail] Midlife when was the last time you listened to your gut? In the new year? There's a lot of misleading information floating around about food and weight loss. Did you know there's a lot of misleading information about ultra processed foods? Trying to frame them as healthy. That's why now is the best time to look into Zoe. Backed by one of the world's largest microbiome databases and most scientifically advanced at home gut health tests, Zoe gives you proven science whenever you need it. Your Zoe membership starts by testing your gut health and making smart food choices from there. Zoe is science led and proven to work in a randomized controlled trial. Trust your gut. Trust Zoe. Go to Zoe.com to find out what Zoe membership could do for you. And because you listen to my so called Midlife, you can use the exclusive code ZOE20 to get 10% off membership. As a Zoe member, you get an at home test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your gut. That's z o e.com use Zoe20 at checkout for people who don't know Ketanji. You are so kind.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh my goodness.

[Reshma Saujani]

You are. You are so kind. We met on a board I'll never forget. I was so nervous and you, you saved me a seat. It was like. And you made me feel like you had been waiting for me. Right? And it did. It was. I'll never forget it. And I, you know, and I feel like you are like that in your life. I know you are like that in your life. And it's hard when you're juggling all these things to, to remember to kind of lead with kindness and to show up for others. How do you do that?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yeah, well, you know, I think, I think that kindness is a function of humility and in the book, I talk about when I was very young, learning some lessons in humility that have stuck with me that, you know, I really do know and believe that there but for the grace of God, go I. Yeah. That I have the things that I have and I'm in the position that I'm in, you know. Yes. Because of my hard work, but also because of great good fortune and favor and blessings.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And so with that mindset, I feel the need to. To be kind to the people that I interact with. And I think it's really important, especially when you're talking about people with whom you work, people who you regularly interact with. Kindness is crucial. I also tell a story in the book of a speech that was given my college graduation that was so powerful to me that I remember it even to this day. The basic story that was told in the speech was about a man who'd become a very prominent demolition expert, and he was flying first class everywhere. And as it turned out, he never learned to read. And so he was sitting on the plane and asking his seatmate to read the menu to tell him what was on it. And he ended up explaining that years before, he had gone to a community college and said, I'd like to learn how to read. This is when he was maybe in his 30s. And the woman at the front desk laughed and said, you must be kidding. And he was so humiliated that he turned and left and never went back and never tried to actually get any formal training in reading. And the person who told the speech said, you know, that the title of the speech was no Insignificant words, that if that woman had just said fantastic, it would have changed this man's life forever. And so he was explaining that as college students, we had the responsibility now to understand that our words were significant, that they meant things to other people and to be kind to the people that we interacted with. And I've never forgotten that.

[Reshma Saujani]

I'm never gonna forget this. That's such an important thing, I think, to teach ourselves and our children. So I wanna talk about God. I think that's a lot of what brought you and I together and I think, connected. It's a big theme in your life. It's a big theme in my life. And it's a lot about, I think, how we probably both find peace. I have gotten into this practice with the family where we try to pray together every night. I start my mornings. You know, we have our. In Hinduism, you have your version of kind of gospel music. It's called bhajans. And My parents used to listen to it, you know, in the morning or in the car. So, like, I've lately started that practice, too, which has been so soothing. What are some practices you employ?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, I do. I listen to gospel a fair amount, actually. I have a playlist that I get on the treadmill, too. And then it runs in my head, you know, throughout the day. Little phrases and refrains. You know, at times we have done a practice that a friend of mine does, which is really focus on what you're thankful for. Not just at Thanksgiving time, but, you know, at other times. And articulating that, because I think that really helps to center the higher being that is in our lives.

[Reshma Saujani]

Oh, I love that. That's beautiful. So you wrote there were a few people who really knew about your dream to be Supreme Court justice. Why'd you keep it a secret?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, my goodness. It's the kind of thing you can't really walk around saying you want to do. I mean, it's really like being struck by lightning. So you certainly. You know, and I think, too, that when you have a big dream, if you articulate it, there's always the fear of failure. You know, if people know that this is something you're shooting for and then you don't make it, it's. It. It's. You're very exposed in a way that I think I was afraid of. So if I didn't tell anybody and then I didn't do it, then fine. Now I will say I did say in my college yearbook or my high school yearbook that I wanted to be a federal judge.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yep.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And I think I got that idea because I had been introduced to Constance Baker Motley.

[Reshma Saujani]

Can you tell everybody who she is?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Constance Baker Motley was the first federal female African American judge. And she was a civil rights lawyer before she became a judge and also was in New York City politics for a bit. But where she was most well known is she represented a number of civil rights figures during the Thurgood Marshall era and helped to craft the strategy for Brown versus the Board and was just brilliant. She also was the first African American woman to argue before the Supreme Court. She argued something like 10 cases and won nine of them. So she was just incredible. And she happens to be my birthday twin. But it's interesting because she was born 49 years to the day before me. And the difference in our career prospects ultimately, just because of that time difference, is striking. You know, I have no doubt that she could have been on the Supreme Court, that she would have been an excellent Justice. But she was born in a time where that wasn't possible for women, not to mention black women. And so I just feel so grateful and so fortunate to follow in her footsteps in this way.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. Your book took me in a lot of emotional ways. I feel like I'm gonna cry now. It was so powerful, and I was trying to figure out, like, what's creating this emotion inside of me. And I think it was this feeling of hope, but it was also this feeling that you were able to get here. And, yes, you face struggle, yes, you face challenges, but the world also collided for you that the message is also for women. It doesn't have to be this hard all the time. And then when it works out, it feels different. Like, you were saying that when you got the call, it was almost like you heard the ocean. It was like you heard love. You heard God. Right? It was joy. Because your. Your journey was joyful.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes. No, I mean, it's. It. You said it better than I could. And I. My grandmother used to say when I was very, very, very young, that I was a blessed child. And I've carried that both in my head and in my heart throughout my life because I feel that. I feel grateful for the opportunities that I have, and that gratitude helps me to get through the hard times. She used to also say that to whom much is given, much is required. And so the hard times were the requirement for the joy that I feel about getting to serve the American people in this way, getting to be the mom of two incredible kids and being in this life.

[Reshma Saujani]

So I want to close up here. You did write you had two dreams.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Saujani]

It was to be the first black female Supreme Court justice on Broadway.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

That's true.

[Reshma Saujani]

So when are we going to Broadway?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You know, I'm available if someone has a plane and they would like.

[Reshma Saujani]

If someone is listening right now. Judge Jackson is available.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

No, I love acting. I did a lot of it early on. I try to get to the theater as much as I can. So, yes, I'm willing to entertain all scripts.

[Reshma Saujani]

Okay, so you're still keeping this dream, right? It's still live?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Reshma Saujani]

I love it. So it's like. Cause, you know, it's true. Like, in midlife, you still need the thing, especially when you've already gotten there.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Right, Exactly.

[Reshma Saujani]

All right, so that's our mission. Community, is to get the justice in Broadway. This was so wonderful.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Thank you. So great.

[Reshma Saujani]

Thank you for doing well. Thank you for being on the pod. And thank you. Thank you for this book.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, well, I am just so delighted that you liked it. That you are recommending was a labor of love and I'm glad that that shows.

[Reshma Saujani]

Okay Midlifers, the first thing you must do after listening to this interview is go read Justice Jackson's book. Ah, it gave me all the feels. So much hope, so much light in this interview. It gave me some really great takeaways on how to really live my midlife. Number one, Lead with kindness always. Number two, being kind doesn't mean you have to give up your boundaries. Setting time for yourself is maybe the best thing you can do to truly be present and genuinely show up for others. And third, if you got a dream, even if it's as big as Broadway, don't ever give up on it. Bloom where you are planted and the fruits of your labor will eventually pay off. Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson is a Supreme Court justice and the author of Lovely One. Her book is out now, so make sure you grab a copy wherever you buy your books. All right, that's it for our show. See you all next week. Bye. There's more of my so Called Midlife with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Midlife Advice that didn't make it into the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts, I'm your host Rashmi Sajani. Our producer is Claire Jones. This series is sound designed by Ivan Koraev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Koraev and performed by Ryan Jewell, Ivan Koraev and Karen Waltok. Our senior Supervising producer is Kristin Lepore. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Executive producers include me, Rashma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax, and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review and let us know how you're doing in midlife. You can submit your story to be included in the [e-mail] midlife follow mysocalled midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye. Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling.

[Reshma Saujani]

Author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Why, hello there. This is your pal Sarah Silverman. You know, the stand up comic that's not afraid of a diarrhea joke.

[Reshma Saujani]

Oh my God, I'm so brave.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I hope you're enjoying this podcast that you're listening to.

[Reshma Saujani]

I am just dropping in here to.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Let you know about another podcast I think you'd like, and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week, listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life, anything, their silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situations. And then I respond, whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead, search for the Sarah Silverman.

[Reshma Saujani]

Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Bye.