Gretchen Whitmer (4:01)

Oh, wow. I think a lot of growth. To be honest, I actually wouldn't want to go back to my 20s. I look at my kids who are in their 20s in today's day and age, and it's just such a totally different experience. So I. I'm grateful to be, you know, in my mid. Well, I'm 53, and, you know, I've learned a lot, and I feel like I'm. I'm really owning my space in a way that I didn't feel like I could when I was in my twenties.

Reshma Saujani (4:31)

I know so many people say that, like, what happens and did that happen when you turned 50, that you felt this whole, like, I'm owning my space?

Gretchen Whitmer (4:39)

I just think it's. You get battle tested, right? Like, it's. It's a part of life that you've been through. You know, I went through marriage and having kids and caring for a sick parent and getting divorced, and, you know, I've had all these personal challenges, and I think I'm really. I know who I am, like, and I also know I'm not going to live forever, so I'm. I'm getting better at deciding how I spend my time and energy.

Reshma Saujani (5:06)

Yeah, and that must be hard for you. Cause, like, I feel like in politics, you're going from one thing to the Next thing to the next thing to the next thing, right? And so much if I know what I try to do in this moment is just like be in the moment, but it's must that, like, that is just like an oxymoron. I feel like if you're a public servant, it is hard.

Gretchen Whitmer (5:23)

I mean, you know, every, I feel like every waking minute of my day is, is already designed for me. And so trying to look forward. And I'm a planner. My, my dad always used to say if to plan, you plan to fail. And so like I am a planner. I got to know when my next break is. I got to know what's on deck for the next, you know, seven days. So I can plan my meals, you know, pack my meals, I pack my lunch, all of that jazz. But so what I love about my life is no day is the same as the last. What is challenging about my life is unpredictable. But I, I do try to stay in the moment. I gotta remind myself to do that.

Reshma Saujani (6:05)

So I want to talk about politics. So you. I loved your book and we're going to get to it in a second. But you come basically from a family of public servants. So what you struggle most when you started. So I ran for office and I distinctly remember I was sitting on the train and I was on my way to a senior senator and I was having like a full on panic attack. Because when you run for office for the first time, especially like you've never done any of these things before and everything is like so scary. It's like jumping off a ledge like every step. I'm sure now you're, you know, you got it. But when you started, were you that scared too?

Gretchen Whitmer (6:44)

Oh, yeah. And you know what's funny? My mom was one of the top people in the Attorney General's office here in Michigan. And I remember, you know, she was in her 50s and she was this incredibly accomplished person and she was a real badass and was like one of the few people in the executive office of the Attorney General and great lawyer. And she confessed to me that she feels like one day someone's going to come in there and realize she doesn't know, like she shouldn't be there. You know, she had the imposter syndrome. And I think, I think, you know, I love that quote from Eleanor Roosevelt. I think is that she said, do something that scares you every single day and you get stronger when you do that. And I think that's what running for office really requires.

Reshma Saujani (7:31)

It's so true. It's so true. Like Every day is, like, terrifying. So what's your favorite part of being a politician? Is it the fact that, like, every day terrifies you?

Gretchen Whitmer (7:43)

I definitely am a little bit of an adrenaline junkie. I mean, I think that that's a. That's good. But my favorite part is people. I love people.

Reshma Saujani (7:51)

I could tell that reading your book, you just. You love talking to people.

Gretchen Whitmer (7:54)

I do. I love people are fascinating. And, you know, if you ask a couple question, you can learn a lot about someone. And I just. I. I've learned a lot. But the joy I get comes from people. Whether it's helping people or working together with people or even, you know, debating people, it is we. We're all on equal footing on that regard. And I think that's really humbling, but also exciting.

Reshma Saujani (8:21)

Can I ask you something? Do you think that people have changed? And this is a weird question to ask you. So my parents came as refugees, and I always think about the fact that, like, when they came here, my mother was pregnant, they had $10 in their pockets, and they were taken in by the Catholic church. They were fed, right. They were housed like, it didn't matter that they were a different religion, a different skin color, didn't speak the language. People took them in. Right. And that sense of, like, love thy neighbor in this moment where it feels like we're so divided and there's so, so much. And I get it, like, people are just. They can't afford basic things, and it makes you angry. Do you think people have changed in your 25 years in politics?

Gretchen Whitmer (9:02)

I think so, yeah. And I wish I could say for the better, but I don't. I don't think so. I think one of the things that really is so challenging right now is I think we're really quick to attribute the worst, you know, the worst assumptions about anyone and everything, as opposed to giving people the benefit of the doubt, which is how I was raised. Like, if someone does something that doesn't quite compute, give them the benefit of doubt, they know something you don't know, or they're experiencing something you don't experience. And now it's like if they do something you can't explain, then you just assume the absolute worst. They are evil or corrupt. And I think that I really grapple with that a lot because I'm always challenging myself to try to create a scenario in my head that explains someone's behavior. When my mom was dying of brain cancer, I talk about this in the book. I was taking care of my newborn, and my mom at the end of her life. You know, the sandwich generation at the age of 30. And there was a pamphlet that the hospice folks left behind. And it was a guy who was really had six wild kids on a subway. They were irritating everyone else on the subway. They were running wild. And this lady was just about to give the dad a piece of her mind when he turned to her and said, my wife just died, and I don't know how I'm going to raise these kids without her. And I think about that a lot because I'm always trying to remember to give someone the benefit of doubt, to seek to understand, not to cast everyone as a jerk or insensitive or selfish. You know, like, maybe something's really going on there. And I think that's why I try to listen to people a lot and ask questions.

Reshma Saujani (10:45)

It's funny you say that. I think I really became that way, especially when I became a mother, because you're just like, you just don't know what people are going through, right? Like, you don't know what's going on with them. Let's talk about caregiving leadership before we get to your book. Like, so, you know, in your first term in the house, like you said, you gave birth to your first daughter, and your mom is sick and she's dying, and you're part of the Sandwich generation. How was that experience? Like, how did it shape you? And what's your advice to people right now? Because honestly, a lot of our listeners are kind of similarly going through the same thing, right? Where they're potentially taking care of little ones and their parents have cancer or they're sick or, like, they have diabetes. And, like, it's a lot to manage.

Gretchen Whitmer (11:30)

It's hard. You know, of all the ups and downs that I had in public office, nothing even comes close to that period of time when I was taking care of Mom. I gave birth to Sherry, my oldest daughter. I'd started a new job. I was newly married as well. They say the five most stressful things in your life are a marriage, a birth, a death of a loved one, moving your home and starting a new job. And I did all those in one year. And yet it forged who I am. It helped me figure out how to look 10 yards ahead as opposed to get overwhelmed by the hundred yards, right? To figure out how do you get the next first down, as opposed to how do you get into the end zone? And in that way, it helped me manage. But it also, I think, taught me a lot about myself, about what I'm capable of arguing with my Mom's health insurer to cover her chemo when they wrongfully denied her, trying to find daycare for my. My newborn, or nurse her, keep nursing her and go back to work in a place where everyone says, you got a nurse, but no one gives you a lactation room, Right? So I think that period of my life really forged who I am today, and it's how I can handle all the craziness of my job. Because you go through that, you can handle anything.

Reshma Saujani (12:51)

How did you not give up? Because you could have just said, you know what? Fuck it. Like this. This politics thing right now is like, not. It's not the right time. Like, there's just too much going on. I need to focus on that.

Gretchen Whitmer (13:01)

You know, I. There. I think there were moments where I thought, what? Is this worth it? What am I doing? You know, when I ran for reelection as governor, a lot of people said, why? They threatened to kill you, kidnap and kill you. You've had a pandemic to deal with racial justice demonstrations and George Floyd's death. 32 recall attempts. You had a, like, flooding of Midland where you had to evacuate people like, it was crazy. And people say, why do you want to do this again? Why do you want to sign up again and ask for us to vote for you again? And it really comes down to, you know, I love what I do. I feel really lucky to be here, even on the hardest day. But I think I get that perspective because of the fire I walked through earlier in life.

Reshma Saujani (13:59)

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For my trip this year, I'm upgrading my boring toiletry bag with their Nappa Leather toiletry bag. It has so many pockets and high quality leather that I know it will last me a lifetime. I'll also be grabbing their Mulberry silk beauty sleep mask for the plane ride so I can get the rest I need without the jet lag. For your next trip, treat yourself to luxe upgrades you deserve from quince. Go to quince.com midlife for 365 doll day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U-I-N C E.com midlife to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn.com midlife I want to talk about your book. So what I loved, like, your book. I literally read it in, like, an hour. And it was like, it's like a phenomenal, like, beach read. And there's so many, like, tangible things. I mean, there's so many stories that just still stick with me. Like, why'd you write it this way? Cause, like, you read a lot of political, you know, memoirs, and they're, oh, my God, like, I put them down, right? It's like, it's too much. But you wrote it. You know, it's funny. You didn't write it. This is my interpreter. You didn't write it because you were trying to, like, run for something. You really wrote it, like, as a gift to the people that you've met across, you know, these 25 years to say, this is what I've learned. And here are your stories.

Gretchen Whitmer (20:44)

I'm glad that's how you took it. That's how I meant it. The questions that I would get asked frequently is, why do you still feel optimistic? How are you? Stay positive. How did you get through all of this? And so I kept thinking, if there are 10 lessons I've learned in my life that might help someone else who's carrying a heavy load now, or maybe they just even get a laugh at my expense. It's not all flattering. I tell some pretty unflattering truths about my experience, but. But, you know, I'm human. And I think if you can get something useful out of this, that's what it was all about. I knew last year would be a heavy year with the presidential. I had no idea, you know, that we would be going into, you know, it's going to be a prolonged, heavy time. But that's why I put it out there. So if you get a laugh at my expense or there's a lesson that I learned that can be useful, then I've done some good here. And that's what it's all about.

Reshma Saujani (21:38)

So one of the chapters that really inspired me was called Run Toward the Fire. And, like, even, like, the mental image alone, I'm like, wow. And spending some time with you, like, you are a lady who runs through the fire, toward the fire. And I love this metaphor, not just for leadership, but for resilience. Can you tell me about a recent example where you had to run toward the fire?

Gretchen Whitmer (22:02)

Sure. I've got one very recent, actually. So, you know, two weeks ago, we had a horrendous ice storm in northern Michigan. If you get a quarter inch of ice, it is a catastrophe. We had an inch and a half of ice in some places. Like it snapped utility poles in half. 3500 utility poles snapped in half. You and I are talking. It's about 15 days since the, since the first ice storm happened. And then like four days into it, another one came through. Fifteen days in, we still have 5,500 people that don't have power. I mean, that, that's how serious it is and how scary. And so, you know, I went up and toured the area and I decided just, you know, last week I called the president and said, I'm going to need some help and I want to come in and tell you about this. By the way, I also wanted to talk about tariffs and air, you know, air National Guard base. But he said, okay, come on over. So I went to DC this past week to go meet with the President about this. And they brought me in, not into a meeting, a one on one meeting, which is what I thought I was going for, but into a press conference that was about a bunch of stuff that I don't agree with. And I was kind of, what do you do? Do you make a scene? Well, that doesn't help the people of Michigan. Do you walk out? That doesn't help the people of Michigan. So I stood there, I walked out briefly to talk to my staff person and walked back in and then had my meeting. But I've gotten a lot of heat for it. I had to ask for help for the people of Michigan and public service. The way I was taught, public service from both my parents is you take an oath to put the people's interests above your own. And so while maybe I'm going to pay a price for that, I was doing the right thing for Michigan.

Reshma Saujani (23:44)

Well, you shouldn't have to pay a price for it because you're, as an executive, you're elected to help the people. Right. And no matter what that. No matter. I mean, quite frankly, like, you've had some history with our president.

Gretchen Whitmer (23:57)

Oh, yeah. You know, one of my favorite nicknames, that woman from Michigan, was bestowed on me. Not Michigan, not with love.

Reshma Saujani (24:06)

No. And I know you, you don't mess around. So like. And so for you, it's like even to just go there when someone has just, you know, the woman from Michigan, I mean, there was a kidnapping attempt on your life.

Gretchen Whitmer (24:21)

Yep.

Reshma Saujani (24:22)

And you went there for the people. Because that's what you're elected to do.

Gretchen Whitmer (24:28)

And, you know, I think, fortunately, I think the people in Michigan know that about me. And so I've gotten, you know, some talking heads in Washington, D.C. you know, have all sorts of opinions, but, you know, I went to a big meeting earlier and people were just coming out of the woodwork. Thank you. We know that wasn't where you had planned to be, but you were there for us, you know, and I. That's all that matters.

Reshma Saujani (24:51)

Yeah. What has this experience taught you, though, about leadership or about, like, you've learned a lot. Did this teach you anything?

Gretchen Whitmer (24:59)

Oh, yeah. Well, you know, it was funny because when I went back to the book at True Gretchen, I think that there's, There are a lot of things that I have acknowledged in that book, lessons that are applicable still every day in my life. And it, you know, number one, I'm gonna find the humor where I can. I spoke to the Economic Club in Detroit this morning and they mentioned it and I put my folder up in of my face and everyone thought that was hilarious.

Reshma Saujani (25:25)

So I thought it was super funny too.

Gretchen Whitmer (25:28)

You know, you gotta laugh. I, you know, if I, if I could do some things differently and had a time machine, I'd use that time machine for sure on many occasions in my life, but that doesn't exist. So I'm. I am just gonna muster on and try to be the happy warrior.

Reshma Saujani (25:44)

Yeah, I mean, listen, I also think it's like, you know, this is also about courage and about. We're experiencing this, you know, with childcare. It's like, there are moms across country that are suffering, parents across the country that are suffering. And like, we don't get the luxury of just doing things and working with people that we want to work with. Right. Of doing it on our own terms. Because that is not what we're here to do. And what you're here to serve, you're here to, like, get done, which is. I know your favorite phrase. And that means that you often have to work with people who may not be kind or respectful. You, I mean, to you. And I think that's. That's what you're elected to do. What do you think are some of the signs of a good leader? And how do you allow yourself, like, what do you do when you don't always meet those expectations?

Gretchen Whitmer (26:30)

Well, you know, I think signs of a good leader, I mean, having moral and real clarity on what you are setting out to do, what your job is, who you serve. I think that's really important, surrounding yourself with great people. Oh, my gosh, I could not do this job without an army of wonderful, smart, talented, diverse people who have different perspectives and who have different ideas and see things differently. Like, that's helped me. Whether it's, you know, getting my state through the polar vortex early on in. In my time or just getting through the last week, frankly, it is. Those are really important. And, you know, I. I'm a human. I do fall short, and I. I try not to beat myself up too much, but I am a woman raised, and so there's always that. That voice about, how do we. How do we manage through this or do better or improve? And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think it drives me to be better and to. To learn things whenever there are mistakes.

Reshma Saujani (27:36)

I want to talk to you about swag. Cause I think one of the things that you have, which is a big part of your appeal, and I know why a lot of, quite frankly, people just love you, is your swagger. And I think for a lot of women, they don't feel comfortable owning that swag, quite frankly, because we're told and we're conditioned to, like, make ourselves small and, like, apologize and don't take up space and don't be too loud and don't be so confident, because if you do, then you'll seem like you're arrogant. And one of the things that I've really taken away from your book and just getting to know you a little bit is that you have not fallen for that con. You know, you have swag. Talk to me about how you learned that. Were you always this way, or is this something that you also feel like has come with midlife?

Gretchen Whitmer (28:19)

Oh, I think. I think it's come with changing times and more badass women owning their space. And I think with experience, with years. You know, I marvel at my kids. They're in their 20s, and they would not put up with half the BS that I had to put up with and that I did put up with when I was in my 20s. You know, I think about, you know, when people say, oh, you know, show up as you are. It took me a little while to figure out how to do that comfortably and confidently. I am grateful that there are people like Hillary Clinton and Jennifer Granholm, who was the first woman governor in Michigan, who came before me and kind of walked through the fire and made it easier for me to throw on a leather jacket and go do a press conference when there's a kidnapping and murder plot. So I'm thinking about how do I make sure that I've I've made a better path for whomever comes next? Because I'm so grateful that other women who didn't feel as liberated as I do made it easier for me to show up as I am.

Reshma Saujani (29:36)

I wish I could have learned how to be more financially mindful when I was younger. I mean, who didn't blow their allowances away over toys or a day in the mall? If I could go back in time, I tell myself to start saving young. So it's been my mission as a parent to teach my kids how they can be more financially responsible. Starting today. This is why I'm happy that today's episode is sponsored by Acorns Early April is Financial Literacy Month, the perfect time to start teaching your kids the value of money. And Acorns early makes it easy with their smart Money app app and their debit card for kids. Through the Acorns Early Chores Tracker, you can teach your kids that hard work pays off. Just set up tasks in the app, set a payment amount, and tick the chore off when it's done. Their Savings Goals feature helps kids turn saving into a habit. They can even choose their own target dates and turn on the optimal autosave feature to help them get there. With Acorn early, kids get a new sense of independence when they spend what they earn with their very own debit card. Plus, kids can build up their money knowledge and their confidence with bite sized financial lessons. The Acorns early app has tons of fun, interactive courses that help kids learn about all things money. It's never too early to teach your kids about financial literacy. These are skills that they will carry with them their whole lives. Being able to teach them how to be more responsible with their money gives me peace of mind that they're going to be okay. And I can see how much more confident they've become with their new financial responsibility. Ready to help your kids grow money skills that will last a lifetime? Just head to acornserly.com midlife or download the Acorns early app to get started. Sign up now and your first month is on us. Acorns Early Card is issued by Community Federal Savings Bank Member FDIC pursuant to license by MasterCard International. TNCs apply monthly subscription fee starting from $5 per month unless canceled. When was the last time you listened to your gut in the new year? There's a lot of misleading information floating around about food and weight loss. Did you know there's a lot of misleading information about ultra processed foods trying to frame them as healthy. That's why now is the best time to look into Zoe. Backed by one of the world's largest microbiome databases and most scientifically advanced at home GUT health tests, Zoe gives you proo in science whenever you need it. Your Zoe membership starts by testing your GUT health and making smart food choices from there. Zoe is science led and proven to work in a randomized controlled trial. Trust your gut. Trust Zoe. Go to Zoe.com to find out what Zoe membership could do for you. And because you listen to my so called midlife, you can use the exclusive code ZOE20 to get 10% off membership. As a Zoe member you get an at home test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your gut. That's z o e.com use Zoe20 at checkout.

D (32:36)

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Reshma Saujani (33:51)

Looking for a new cookbook to add to your collection? Look no further. Half Baked Harvest Quick and Cozy is the latest New York Times best selling cookbook from Tegan Gerard. It's become my newest staple in my kitchen. Filled with over 120 recipes for delicious, soul warming comfort food, this book is the perfect gift for Mother's Day Many of these recipes are doable in one pot or pan, Most in under 45 minutes. And all with a more is more focus on flavor, but not ingredients. It's easy to find a recipe that works best for you without all the hassle and cleaning. You'll find recipes for Maple Bacon Pancakes with Bourbon Maple Syrup, Garlic Butter Steak Bites with Bang Bang Sauce, and Sheet Pan Mac and Cheese with all the crispy edges. One of my personal favorite recipes from the book is the One Pot Skillet Garlic Butter Chicken and Zucchini Orzo. It's so easy and delicious. And for dessert, I always make sure to include the Strawberry Oatmeal Cookie Cobbler. Trust me now, there isn't a day that goes by without my family asking for dessert. If you or anyone in your life ever needed a belly full of comfort and a plate bursting with fresh, unexpected flavors and wanted it, all right now, Half Baked Harvest Quick and Cozy is for you. Available wherever books are sold. I want to talk about age and whether the older you've gotten, that that's changed the way you perceived your work. You know, I'm thinking of Don Lemon, right, when he said that Nikki Haley was past her prime, right? And he said Nikki Haley, you know, when. Sorry, when a woman is considered to be in her prime, she's in her 20s and 30s and maybe her 40s. Nikki Haley isn't in her prime.

Gretchen Whitmer (35:38)

I remember where I was when I saw that. I actually had CNN on when he said it. And I mean, I'm almost. I think she and I were like within a year apart, you know, so I took that very personally, understandably. I was so angry on her behalf because, you know, I mean, you think about how much longer we live than men, how much more experience we accumulate than men. I just thought that that was the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Because even though my politics are very different than hers, she deserves respect, for sure.

Reshma Saujani (36:14)

And listen, unfortunately, there's some real consequences of his belief and his beliefs are common because, you know, the largest. I didn't know this, governor, but the largest gender pay gap is for women above the age of 50. But it's really. There's this real kind of like data driven discrimination that's really popped up that it's just we perceive women, especially in their 50s, as, oh, can't hire them. They're just, you know, they're gonna have too many caregiving responsibilities and then they're gonna hit menopause. So just forget about it.

Gretchen Whitmer (36:43)

It's so funny. I love that we're actually Talking about menopause again.

Reshma Saujani (36:46)

I was gonna ask you about that.

Gretchen Whitmer (36:47)

You can see we're on a podcast, but you can see my gray hair right now. I've decided I'm done dyeing.

Reshma Saujani (36:53)

You're rocking it.

Gretchen Whitmer (36:54)

I'm embracing the silver. But, you know, it's absolutely wrong. I gotta tell you, I. I feel more engaged than I've ever felt. I feel more energized, you know? Yeah, it's. It's not always, you know, menopause ain't for the week, but it makes you stronger. And I think that, you know, it's interesting that the. I want to learn more about what you just said about that. The wage gap. I wonder if it's also a generational thing, because we're more, I think, mindful of helping younger women negotiate and demand and expect. And maybe women in my generation, definitely women in my generation didn't have that same level of empowerment and training and support. So I hope maybe that that gap will decrease over time.

Reshma Saujani (37:43)

I mean. Well, I think it's the fact that we're having a conversation about. Look, I think it's a lot of things. I do think that, you know, if you're suffering through real menopause systems, the anxiety, the hot flashes, like, you don't know when they're coming, right? And so part of it is just there's a real health issue that you're facing. And, like, there's no research on it. There's no support for it. And so I think the. The importance of continuing to invest in women's health, especially in menopause, is really important because it is a real driver for women leaving the workforce. And I think people are really. There's a lot of progress being made. You're seeing menopause benefits, you know, entering the conversation on HR benefits. And so that's, you know, I think that that's really happening. But I think that's. Right. I just. I think we have to pay more att the fact of, like, is there, you know, is there really a gap, right, of women leaving the workforce, whether it be for men or the fact that we don't have childcare care. Care for, you know, older adults. Right. All of this. Parents.

Gretchen Whitmer (38:40)

Right.

Reshma Saujani (38:40)

All of this is. I mean, try to find someone to. To help support care for your parents. It's virtually impossible. So all of these things are real kind of societal, structural issues that I think women, you know, I mean, in their 50s, are starting to really face. And it's having real consequences on what they're deciding professionally. And we just haven't focused on it.

Gretchen Whitmer (39:00)

We haven't focused on it, and science hasn't studied it, and we haven't devoted the resources to it. I mean, you know, I saw Samantha Bee do stand up in Royal Oak a couple years ago, and she was talking mostly about menopause. I didn't even know that. I just love her. So I went to the show, but it was like it hit right there. Right. And she was talking about how the finest scientists on the planet sent Sally Ride to space for four days with a hundred tampons. Those were the best scientists around. Didn't know how a woman's body worked.

Reshma Saujani (39:35)

No.

Gretchen Whitmer (39:36)

So I'm told that. And some men look at me like what I'm like, you don't need 100 tampons even if you're on, even if you're having your period. Those same exact four days.

Reshma Saujani (39:45)

That's right. Well, I'm happy to report I interviewed my friend Christina Koch, who is going to be, you know, going to orbiting the moon. She was one of an incredible female astronaut. They are actually shifting her training to anticipate for her perimenopause symptoms. So there are being, like you said, the more women you have, the more people that are around the table. Things actually do change.

Gretchen Whitmer (40:11)

It's why diversity matters. Diversity. Not just in gender, not just in age. I mean, it's just through all the spectrum because we all have a different lived experience. We all have. We see things from different perspectives. And if you don't have that, you're really running a risk. It's dangerous not to have robust, empowered diversity at all tables where decisions are being made that impact people's lives.

Reshma Saujani (40:38)

Yeah. And I think part of it is just training women on how to basically kind of stand up for themselves. I was thinking about a story you told in the book about your blue dress, and I'm gonna have you tell it. And I experienced something similar when I was running for office, except it was about my Kate Spade shoes. And I want you to tell the story and then I want to talk about it.

Gretchen Whitmer (41:00)

So I was getting ready for my first state of the state. I had just one, but I had, you know, I'm a Democratic governor and I've got a Republican led House and a Republican led Senate. I ran on practical things like fixing the damn roads. I wrote this speech to kick off and set the tone for my first term as governor, my first opportunity to address the state as a sitting governor after my inauguration. And you know, when you're a woman in politics, people Notice what you wear. You can't just wear the same suit and change out the tie or shirt so it can get expensive. And, you know, I'm a public servant. I don't make a lot of money. I'm not complaining, but it's not, you know, I don't have people who dress me at, like, I do all this my own. And so I, I rented a dress from Rent the Runway, a blue dress. It was just like the dress I'd worn on Inauguration Cut. Similarly, I thought it was, you know, attractive. I wore it and it was, you know, I look back on the pictures and I think, God, I walked in there because my girls had picked it out with me and they were like, you look really pretty, girl. You know, and so I walked. I was feeling good. I gave this speech. I talked about each of the legislative leaders and their families. I said, we've got to see one another so we can work together and get to know each other. And I complimented them all and gave this speech and vision on Michigan Left. And I thought, oh, it went well. I didn't, you know, have any big blunders. And. And shortly thereafter, the coverage started happening and, man, it was brutal. People, all they talked about was the dress that I wore. They talked about what my boobs look like in the dress. They talked about that. It, you know, some people said, oh, you know, that I was rocking it. My, my boobs look great. Others said I looked like, you know, 10 pounds of sugar and a five pound bag.

Reshma Saujani (42:41)

Told you to buy a different. Or like, I see you're wearing a different bra now.

Gretchen Whitmer (42:45)

Yeah, I need new bras. And one of the pieces they covered was not about my speech. It was interviewing man on the street about my dress. And one guy was saying I looked like I was pregnant. And all I could do was laugh because if, if, you know, I know you'd cry. But it's like, you know, it was so depressing because I'm like, I just gave this speech, I worked so hard on it, and they're talking about the damn dress. I'm. I'm half tempted, Reshma, to wear that same dress next year in my last day at the state.

Reshma Saujani (43:20)

You should. You should totally do it. You should totally, totally rock it. But so what do you do? Because it's kind of like what you just experienced last week, right? It's. It is really, really hard to own the narrative. You know, what happens, you know what? You know what I mean? But then it gets taken from you, right? So what do you do?

Gretchen Whitmer (43:44)

Well, I Mean, I think you, you laugh at it or you try to slap it down with a couple of tweets, which is what we did in that instance. You know, I said, I've been bullied my whole life. People have been making inappropriate comments about my body my whole life. I'm just going to keep doing my work. Work. And I think, you know, I think when people see that, it's not going to dissuade you from moving forward. That's right. They're not going to distract you. You're not going to run down all the rabbit holes. You got a job to do. Yes. You can laugh, brush it off and just keep going forward. I don't have time for that. You know, I needed you most, like thinking about your listeners and all the things that they're juggling from work to kids to bills to putting food on the table, everything that, all the pressures. I don't have time for bs.

Reshma Saujani (44:30)

Yeah, I think that's the lesson is like for everyone who's listening too. It's like there's. Because we've been taught to be good girls, I think our instinct is like, oh, it'll pass. You know, I'm just not gonna say anything. And often I think that's the advice that we're given. But I think the thing, especially right now where there's so much noise, you know, Chris Hayes wrote that book essentially about attention. You have to fight back. You have to own your own truth and kind of tell your own truth. And I think the way that you navigated that, when people would talk about your bras or whether you were pear shaped or whether you were hot or not, like, you didn't just ignore it, you basically went back right at it. And I think. And then people were all on your side. Even people who probably didn't even vote for you were like, no, that's actually inappropriate.

Gretchen Whitmer (45:19)

Right. Right. Well, I think, you know, it's. They also respect. Right. Knowing that no one's going to push you around, even if they don't agree with you, if they believe you're doing what you think the right thing to do is. People give you a lot of grace too. When I was first called that woman from Michigan, I was petrified only because, not because my feelings were hurt, but because I was worried that the federal government was going to withhold help for Michigan when it came to Covid, like mass masks and gloves and all the things we couldn't get in those early days. And Detroit, we. We had such high numbers early on, we in Chicago and New Orleans and New York, and we were all just so desperately fighting. But, you know, I went on television and I was doing interviews, and that's how I was getting help. So I kept going on, and I was on with Trevor Noah, and I wore a T shirt that said that woman from Michigan underneath my blazer. So I'm like, you know, the best way to deal with a bully sometimes.

Reshma Saujani (46:16)

Is to laugh at them 100%. I mean, if you let them eat your lunch, they'll keep eating it over and over and over again. I mean, this is the advice that I give now to universities, right, that are being asked to, like, compromise their academic freedom. It's just like, at a certain point, it is about, you know, strength, respect, strength. And so you have to basically show up in a way. I think that is also true to your. Tishonda decade has this line where she says, you know, you rent your title, but you own your values.

Gretchen Whitmer (46:46)

I love that.

Reshma Saujani (46:48)

And I really love that because I think it, like, especially when you're. When you are, you know, in a leadership position, you're reminded that this is. This is not about you, but it is also about how you decide that you want to show up in this moment. You went through a divorce, and a lot of people on this show, we had an expert come talk about divorce, are kind of going through it in midlife, as you know. Right. A lot of women, you know, are the ones that are often initiating divorce. It's a huge life change for them. What advice would you have for women in going through it? And you also found love again. Your husband seems amazing. He reminds me a lot of my own. What's your advice?

Gretchen Whitmer (47:26)

You know, everyone's different. It's hard to give advice. I'll just say this. You know, we have two kids, and they. They were. You know, that's what I was so worried about when we were going through divorce. What was this gonna mean for the kids? They were pretty young when we got divorced, and their dad's a good. Like, it just was not a good match. There wasn't a big horrendous thing that happened. And so we're a little luckier than some. I recognize not everyone can try to be friends with their ex, but if you have kids and you can. It's really good. It can be really good. He. You know, as I said, the kids were little, and Gary's just. He's a great guy. I hired him every year. He does most of my photography still. That's how we met. He shot. He took pictures of Me for my first campaign. And then we fell in love and had kids and, and then, and so he still does pictures. He does all the pictures. Like a lot of the pictures in the book are Gary. Gary took them.

Reshma Saujani (48:26)

That's incredible.

Gretchen Whitmer (48:27)

Our family shot every holiday he comes over and takes all of our pictures. Like he's great. We get along great now. It wasn't always easy, you know, it. There were feelings and even in a good divorce, it's hard, it's really sad and you feel like you failed and you don't know how you're going to pay the bills. Like there's lots of stress. We were navigating but you know, I told him and, and he was absolutely on the same page. The kids have got to come first. And so if that's the most important thing and we've been able to do that. And our, like just. My daughter turned 23 the other day and Gary and his wife Alisand and Mark and I and both my daughters all went out to dinner together.

Reshma Saujani (49:09)

Wow.

Gretchen Whitmer (49:10)

And if I couldn't have that relationship with him, I'd be missing out on things in my girls lives, I think think or they'd feel bad about things that they shouldn't have to feel bad about. So we're really lucky. Not every, not every divorced couple can do that, but if it's possible, it can work out great.

Reshma Saujani (49:27)

Yeah, I think it's, I think it is about like what. How can you also like my husband and I, you know, we still, I think oftentimes like we, we, we are both can be like really intense and like feisty. But we have a couple's counseling that we do every single week and, or every other week. And it is, it is just really, it's the investment that you take both in the marriage and then in the breakup of the marriage. Right. That is like, makes all the difference.

Gretchen Whitmer (49:55)

Yep. We went to counseling, you know, and that helped us see, okay, we weren't a good match. But here's a path forward and I'm glad you pointed that out because I hadn't even thought about that. But I think counseling, I think therapy. Oh, I love that. It's getting more and more acceptable for people to say it's a good thing.

Reshma Saujani (50:14)

It's a good thing because it's a good. So one of the most powerful moments in your career is when you shared that you were sexually assaulted in college in your book. I remember you calling your father after because you hadn't told him. And you're like, this is about to come Out. You know, you've always been this fierce advocate for reproductive rights, but you, but you gave in. Like being so vulnerable and sharing something so personal. You gave other people language and how to talk about this issue. How. What was that moment like for you?

Gretchen Whitmer (50:49)

Well, you know, I had been so. I was raped when I was a freshman at Michigan State. And you know, I hadn't really shared that with very many people, a few partners over the years, and I had not planned to talk about it publicly. It was, it was not a. It was, it was a spur of the moment decision. But in the legislature, they were pushing through this bill that would require women to pre purchase purchase abortion insurance. So you had to prepare for an unplanned event by buying something that didn't actually exist. So it wasn't really about solving a problem. It was about creating another barrier between women and the right to access abortion. And the legislature at the time would not hold a single hearing so women or medical providers could testify. They were just jamming it through. And it became clear that the only way we were going to even get an alternative viewpoint on the record was to speak up. I was trying to get my colleague to tell his story. He and his wife had lost yet another pregnancy to I, you know, another IVF pregnancy lost in miscarriage, and she required abortion care at the hospital. And I was trying to get him to tell the story. It was too recent. And I realized, how can I ask him to tell the story when I have one, you know, and, and I decided the spur of the moment to share my, my, my story. And you know, I, I took two of my staff people into the side room and I said, all right, I'm going to tell you something and I'm thinking about talking about on the floor and I want your advice. And I said, you told them what had happened. And the woman said, don't tell the story. It's not going to make a difference. And you're just going to make yourself vulnerable. And the man looked at me like, no, the blood had run out of his face. And like, I have no advice. Like, I don't. I got nothing. Do what you think. Do what is right for you to do. And so the last minute I decided to share this story and the woman was right. It didn't make a damn bit of difference. The boat went down, the gavel fell, I lost the fight and had just shared this horrible thing that happened to me and it realized, oh shit, I gotta call my dad because he's gonna hear about this in the news. I knew that the news would cover it, even though it was late at night. And it was just a really bizarre thing to have to do. And I think he was half asleep when I called. And I said, you know, and he, of course, didn't know what to say. He's like, are you okay? And I said, I am. Just wanted you to hear it from me. And I woke up the next day, I was so depressed because.

Reshma Saujani (53:24)

And bravery doesn't always feel good. Right? This is what. Tell people it doesn't. You weren't like, oh, I did it. You know, look at me, I'm a hero. You. It doesn't feel that way.

Gretchen Whitmer (53:34)

I'm like, I just sold this. And no one gave. No one cared.

Reshma Saujani (53:37)

Right. It didn't matter.

Gretchen Whitmer (53:38)

I lost. And now here I am, you know, God, what have I done? But when I got into the office and we had been inundated by people calling and sending emails saying, thank you, or this happened to me as well in college or. And, you know, I was. I did see a therapist at one point who was sharing with me. You know, we all start as, like, a ball of clay. Clay and life will take things away from you. It'll carve you out sometimes. She said, but when a ball of clay is carved out, it becomes a vessel that can carry water, and it can give you purpose. And so I loved that. I'm a really visual learner, and I love thinking that that innocence was taken away from me when I was raped. You know, that feeling of being secure and in my own space and knowing, you know, feeling. Feeling confident, knowing who I am to feeling, you know, having this taken away from me when I was raped and now being able to see, okay, but this is what gives me purpose. And I am a crusader for reproductive rights and for access for health care for women because of that. And now I can see purpose in it. It doesn't make it okay. And it doesn't mean every person who's gone through this or worse has a duty to speak out. But I have found. Found it to be. Give me purpose and. And that. That gives me, you know, some. Makes me content.

Reshma Saujani (55:07)

Yeah. You know, I've had more miscarriages, like an account. And I have shared my stories, and I shared my story of surrogacy and the amount of people. At least twice a week, someone will reach out on ig, and then I will literally call them and be like, okay, this is the doctor I talked to. This is the medicine I had. This is what I learned about my body. And it just and invariably I'll get an email a year later being like, I just had my baby. Thank you so much. Right. And so it's like, all that pain, all those tears, all those moments of, like, total darkness are, like, worth it because you can just give someone else a little bit of light.

Gretchen Whitmer (55:43)

Yep. I have chills. That's a beautiful story.

Reshma Saujani (55:46)

Well, that's what you did for so many people. So many people in sharing that. So go. Your term is up in 2026. Ooh. Like, so I want to ask you something. Like, if you could do anything right, and it had to be out of politics and it was something for yourself or something you've always wanted to do, what would it be because you're about to have a break. I would go to an ashram in India and really learn how to meditate for long periods of time and not fall asleep, which is what I normally do when I meditate. Like, what would you do?

Gretchen Whitmer (56:22)

I, you know, this would be leaving my husband behind, so he would not be happy. But I kind of like to go eat. Live the eat, Pray, love, which includes part of yours, but also entails eating in Italy. You know, my husband and I have talked about, you know, I'd like to go out and check out the national parks out west. Never done that. I am a Michigander. I love to drive. Drive. My husband hates to drive, so I'm the driver in the family. I haven't driven in seven years now, which is crazy. So I'll need to drive in course again before they set me free. But I think. I think I'd like to throw the dogs and the husband in the car and go out west and go. Go hiking.

Reshma Saujani (57:04)

Ah, that sounds epic. Right? Listen, some books and podcasts. Go hike and camp, be in nature. I love that. So what advice are you going to give? What advice would you give to other women in midlife who want to lead with strength and confidence and swag?

Gretchen Whitmer (57:23)

Be you show up exactly as you are. I got that piece of advice from this woman from Detroit who I've gotten to know pretty well since. But when I was first running for governor, she. We were on the phone and I always had a whiteboard and I'd write the best pieces of advice on it, you know, and look at it. And she said, just show up as you are, you know, don't show up as anyone else. Be exactly who you are. And I think that that's been a good. A good North Star. So that would be my advice, because every one of us has. Has an important voice and perspective and value.

Reshma Saujani (57:58)

Well this was such a great conversation and again I really appreciate that we have become friends and have gotten to spend time together and you really are are such a role model for so, so many people. I love the nicknames Big Gretch. Big Gretch. Energy is what we all gotta have. So thank you so much.

Gretchen Whitmer (58:19)

Thanks Rashma.

Reshma Saujani (58:33)

Huge shout out to the Gretchen Whitmer for taking the time to talk with me today. Her book True Gretch also has a YA version aimed at young people wishing to make a difference in the world. So check it out. Buy it for someone you love. One last thing before you go. Thank you so much for listening to my so Called Midlife if you haven't yet, now's a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like me and Dr. Mary Clair Haver talking about the importance of resistance to training in midlife. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all the other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com thanks. We'll be back next week. I'm your host Rashmi Sajani. Our Associate producer is Isara Acevez and our senior producer is Chrissy Pease. This series is sound designed by I, Ivan Kurayev. Ivan also composed our theme music and performed it with Ryan Jewell and Karen Waltock. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to our development team, Oha Lopez, Jamila Zara Williams and Alex McGowan. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie Whittles Wax, and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Kurdish. Help others find our show by leaving a rating and writing a review and let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this show@speakpipe.com midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcasts or listen Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye.

E (60:26)

Want more from your favorite Lemonada Media podcast? While supporting the shows that help make life suck less, subscribe to Lemonada Premium today. As a subscriber, you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like never before heard interviews, behind the scenes moments, bonus episodes and so much more. More. It's easy to sign up no matter what podcast app you use on Apple. You can just click the Lemonada logo in the Apple Podcast app and hit subscribe. For all other podcast apps, head to Lemonada supportingcast FM to subscribe. That's Lemonada. Supportingcast fm.

F (61:03)

Why, hello there. This is your pal, Sarah Silverman. You know, the standup comic that's not afraid of a diarrhea joke. Oh, my God, I'm so brave. I hope you're enjoying this podcast that you're listening to. I am just dropping in here to, you know, about another podcast I think you'd like, and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week, listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life, anything, their silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situations. And then I respond, whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead, search for the Sarah Silverman Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

Reshma Saujani (61:38)

Bye.