The Future I Dreamed of with Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Future I Dreamed of with Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson"

Podcast Information:

• Title: My So-Called Midlife with Reshma Saujani
• Host: Reshma Saujani
• Guest: Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson
• Episode Release Date: October 23, 2024
• Description: Reshma Saujani explores her feelings of midlife dissatisfaction despite apparent success. She invites notable guests, including Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, to delve into living a fulfilling midlife.

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1. Introduction to Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

Reshma Saujani opens the episode by introducing her esteemed guest, Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. Highlighting Jackson's illustrious career—from graduating Harvard Law to clerking at all federal judiciary levels, serving as a public defender, and being the first Black woman on the Supreme Court—Saujani sets the stage for an insightful conversation about midlife and personal fulfillment.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani [02:10]: "Justice Jackson is so impressive... she's the first Black woman and the first public defender to sit on the High Court."

2. Embracing Midlife Freedom and Achievements

Justice Jackson reflects on her midlife as a period of newfound freedom and the realization of long-term goals. She discusses the satisfaction of seeing the "fruits of [her] labor" after years of dedication and hard work.

Notable Quote:

Ketanji Brown Jackson [01:38]: "Midlife for me feels like more freedom than I really anticipated... seeing all of the fruits of that labor."

3. Family Background and Upbringing

Delving into her early life, Jackson shares how her parents' values as immigrants and their commitment to education shaped her. Growing up during a transformative period in American history, her parents instilled in her the importance of using her voice and striving for excellence.

Notable Quote:

Ketanji Brown Jackson [05:09]: "I have a voice and that I should use it... my parents never really spoke to me in baby talk. They always talked to me in full sentences."

4. Marriage and Partnership with Patrick Jackson

Saujani and Jackson explore the dynamics of Jackson's marriage to Patrick Jackson, a surgeon. They discuss the significance of mutual support, friendship, and compromise in maintaining a strong relationship amidst demanding careers.

Notable Quote:

Ketanji Brown Jackson [08:18]: "We were really good friends early on... today, I will marry my friend."

5. Parenting and Raising Children with Special Needs

A poignant part of the conversation focuses on Jackson's experiences raising her daughter Talia, who was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder. Jackson candidly discusses the challenges, regrets, and ultimate triumphs in adapting her parenting style to support her daughter's unique needs.

Notable Quote:

Ketanji Brown Jackson [19:32]: "The moment that you read what you were referencing was the exhale that came after finally getting confirmation of what we thought could be going on."

6. Balancing Career and Personal Life

Justice Jackson shares insights into balancing a high-pressure career with family responsibilities. She emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries, being selective with commitments, and making time for self-care to maintain overall well-being.

Notable Quote:

Ketanji Brown Jackson [15:51]: "I pick and choose the things to try to preserve my energy... to be available when it matters."

7. The Role of Kindness and Humility

A central theme of the episode is the significance of kindness and humility in both personal and professional settings. Jackson recounts a powerful story from her college graduation speech that underscores the impact of kind words.

Notable Quote:

Ketanji Brown Jackson [35:53]: "Kindness is crucial... our words were significant, they meant things to other people."

8. Personal Practices for Self-Care

Jackson discusses her personal strategies for maintaining balance and mental health, including engaging in crafts, early morning routines, and physical fitness through boxing. These practices help her navigate the demands of her lifetime Supreme Court appointment.

Notable Quote:

Ketanji Brown Jackson [28:36]: "You have to make it... I hired a boxing trainer, which I highly recommend."

9. Lifelong Ambitions and Dreams

Despite her significant achievements, Justice Jackson maintains aspirations beyond her judicial role, including a long-held dream of performing on Broadway. This illustrates her belief in continuous personal growth and embracing new challenges.

Notable Quote:

Ketanji Brown Jackson [43:47]: "Yes, absolutely. Absolutely."

10. Advice for Midlifers

Concluding the episode, Jackson offers invaluable advice to listeners navigating midlife. She encourages maintaining ambition while being present in the current moment, setting boundaries, leading with kindness, and never abandoning one's dreams.

Key Takeaways:

1. Lead with Kindness: Prioritize empathy and understanding in all interactions.
2. Set Boundaries: Protect personal time and energy to maintain balance.
3. Pursue Dreams: Continue striving towards personal goals, no matter how ambitious.

Notable Quote:

Reshma Saujani [45:17]: "Number one, lead with kindness always. Number two, being kind doesn't mean you have to give up your boundaries."

11. Closing Thoughts

Reshma Saujani wraps up the interview by reflecting on the emotional and inspirational insights gained from Justice Jackson's experiences. She encourages listeners to read Jackson's memoir, "Lovely One," to delve deeper into her journey.

Final Quote:

Reshma Saujani [45:17]: "It gave me some really great takeaways on how to really live my midlife."

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Conclusion: This episode of "My So-Called Midlife" offers a profound exploration of midlife through the lens of Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. From navigating career milestones and personal relationships to embracing kindness and setting boundaries, Jackson provides a roadmap for living a fulfilling and balanced midlife. Her candid reflections and actionable advice serve as an inspiration for listeners seeking to enrich their own midlife experiences.

Transcript

[Reshma Sajjani]

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[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Midlife for me feels like more freedom than I really anticipated. I feel like I've had this really big vision for my life and that the past 40, 32 and a half years have been, you know, not planting a handful of seeds, but planting like enormous bags of seed. And I feel like midlife is starting to see all of the fruits of that labor.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Welcome to my so Called Midlife, a podcast where we figure out how to stop just getting through it and start actually living it. I'm Reshma Sajjani. When I think about someone in my life, a person who planted the seeds for their future, it's today's guest, Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. Justice Jackson is so impressive. After graduating from Harvard Law, she clerked at all three levels of the federal judiciary. She worked in private law practice, was the Vice chair and Commissioner on the US Sentencing Commission, and she served as a federal public defender. From the time she was a little girl, she hoped one day that she'd be appointed to the Supreme Court. And guess what? It happened. In her midlife, she made her dream come true. She's the first black woman and the first public defender to sit on the High Court. Justice Jackson is also my friend. She recently wrote a memoir, Lovely One, which Brought me to tears more than once in it, she's just so honest about the obstacles she faced. And so in today's interview, I wanted to talk to her about the love she's invited in her life to make it possible and how she centers kindness in literally everything she does. A kindness that is so key to helping her balance her two daughters, her career, her marriage, and her health. Justice. Jackson, welcome to my so called midlife.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm delighted. How are you?

[Reshma Sajjani]

I'm so good. How are you?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I'm good. I miss you.

[Reshma Sajjani]

I miss you too. And now the term started, right?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It's starting Monday. Yeah.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Well, thank you so much for doing this.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I'm delighted to do this.

[Reshma Sajjani]

So I don't know about you, I got out of bed this morning and I'm like, my whole body hurts. I'm getting old.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Sajjani]

And I want to know one moment last week where you really felt your age, too.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, my goodness. I have felt my age a lot lately with all the travel related to the book. You know, you've been down and you drop a pin and you can't really get there as easily as you used to. And in the mornings, as you say, you know, I used to be a morning person, just literally jump up out of bed like, no need for an alarm. And now I'm struggling.

[Reshma Sajjani]

I want to start talking about the lovely one.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Sajjani]

So the book begins with all of these incredible stories about your grandparents and your parents. And, you know, as a daughter of immigrants, my parents came here as refugees. Like, I just, it really resonated with me, the values, right. How you were raised and the closeness of everyone. What's the one thing that your parents really taught you?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, I have to say, I think it would be that I have a voice and that I should use it. My father went back to law school when I was little. I was three, four years old, living on the campus of the University of Miami Law School with my dad across the table from me, studying in our kitchen. And my parents never really spoke to me in sort of baby talk. They always talked to me in full sentences. And I recall my dad asking me little questions about various things that he was learning and wanting to know my opinion. And so it kind of gave me a sense from very young that I was a part of this family, that I had an opinion that I could express. And I think it really relates to the time in which I was born relative to American history. And my parents, as African Americans, they had grown up in a period of Segregation, where their life prospects were limited by law. And I was born within 5, 6 years of the Civil Rights act and the Voting Rights act and the end of segregation. And I think that my parents really saw it as a window opening, you know, the opportunities that they didn't get to have. And so they wanted to position me to take advantage of everything. Everything. And so they loved me, and they poured into me and they trained me. And I think it was this. That. The power of my own voice and the ability to speak out.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah, I love that. And there's something about that scene of you sitting at the table, your feet barely touch the ground, your father studying for law. And what's so powerful about that point? Your mom, at that point is the breadwinner, Right. She's supporting your dad's dreams. And at that point, they're in the middle of their life. Yes. They're in their midlife, right?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Sajjani]

And their commitment to one another's hopes, dreams, successes, it reminded me so much of you and Patrick. And what were the things that you learned watching them in their relationship that you incorporate in your relationship now?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes. Well, my parents were such great partners and have been throughout their 50 plus years of marriage. And, you know, Patrick's parents have been married for a similar length of time. And I think we just got really good role models around the sacrifices and the give and take and the support that is necessary to sustain a relationship like a marriage.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah. And it's not always easy.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Exactly.

[Reshma Sajjani]

You have to make compromise. I want to come to that. So you married your first love, Right. You met Patrick. Wow. Right.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Sajjani]

You date for seven years, and now you're married for 28 goals. What's your secret?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, my goodness. You know, I think one thing is that we were really good friends early on, that we really got to know each other very well. And that helped, I think, as we started to hit those rough spots and I think, you know, being friends with him. So on our wedding rings, we have inscribed, today, I will marry my friend.

[Reshma Sajjani]

That's so beautiful. So Patrick is a surgeon, so he's got a big job. I mean, you both have these highly demanding, incredibly stressful jobs. And I'm gonna ask you a question about how you don't get angry because. And I bring that up because there's a scene in your book. You're in labor with Talia, right?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Patrick gets paged and looks at you and says, I'll be right back. And for a minute you're like, is this really happening right now?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

So true. And I've not let him live that down for 20 something years.

[Reshma Sajjani]

I mean, how can you.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I think at the beginning, it was really, really hard, especially when the girls were little and they needed so much, and he had this demanding career that required him to be away for so long. I remember when I brought that infant baby home from the hospital. Patrick was still in residency. And it was brutal. I mean, it was really brutal. And there were times when I felt, you know, resentful and angry. But then, you know, I took a step back and understood that he was doing this in part for us, for our family. He needed to get to a point in his career where he could have more flexibility, and that was going to require him putting in the hours now. And similarly, you know, there were periods in my career where I had to really buckle down. And he was the one who supported a lot of our family activity. When I was clerking for the Supreme Court, for example, he would bring me lunch and dinner at the court. He would do, you know, drive me in because I was actually pregnant at the end of my clerkship. And so there's definitely been a give and take, but with a mutual understanding and respect for our careers and our roles.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah. And I love that your book really details that. I remember because I watched a movie about RBG and their relationship reminded me so much of yours. I remember, like, turning to my husband, like, why can't you be more like him? Because there's this perception, right, that only one person is sacrificing to get that big job. And it's so clear, as you describe in the book, that you're both actually negotiating, changing the pace of your career. You both are. Right. In order to show up at home and show up for your career, how did you invite that kind of support? Because sometimes when someone loves you like that, believes in you like that, it's hard.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yeah. I mean, it's.

[Reshma Sajjani]

It.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I'm not. This is not to say that building a life with someone who has similar dreams and aspirations and a lot going on professionally is an easy thing. And it is hard at times to be the one who's out in front and who is being doted on in that way.

[Reshma Sajjani]

I also think it's, you know, for some people, it's hard to accept that kind of love. And I feel like it comes a lot from your parents, too, because they loved you fiercely like that as well.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes, I absolutely believe that. You know, from a very, very young age, my parents were very intentional about encouraging me to do whatever I wanted to do. And I think therefore I was more able and willing to accept that same kind of support from my partner when.

[Reshma Sajjani]

He came along and attract that too.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes, exactly.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah. Ketanji, how do you still stay friends? I think about this. Namal and I are best friends. Like he is my best friend, but like with the kids and the dog and like our careers is hard. It's hard. I actually don't know the last time we had a date night. So how do you now continue to stay best friends?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You know, I think you give each other grace. I think you realize that you're going through a period of time in which these other pursuits, whether it's, you know, family or work, are going to take up an enormous amount of time. It's sort of like the friendships that I have with some of my long time girlfriends that we might go a couple weeks without, you know, touching base. But we know we need that not to have the pressure of having to communicate consistently. And then we just pick up where we've left off when we, when we, one of us surfaces. So similarly, I mean, you're gonna just need to think about the fact that there are other things that you both are committed to doing and that you want to do together and not put so much pressure on yourself to continue with the date nights, you know, et cetera.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah, it's almost like having the security and the ability to stay present. What are your tips?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I don't know that I have that many tips, but you know, what you just said reminds me of when I get home and I'm exhausted and when he gets home and he's exhausted and we're just sitting on the couch and not feeling the pressure to have to entertain each other. That's when we feel like we're really close. You know, you're close enough to me that I don't have to like go through the motions of talking to you just to make sure that you still think that I like you or whatever.

[Reshma Sajjani]

It's such a big thing. Right. I mean, it's why I feel like I have like five friends. Cause these are the friends I can go on vacation with and not talk. Right. Like, it's like we're just in each other's presence and that's it. It's like we're so close that we, that we have almost like the security. Yeah, it's so. Yes, it's a really important thing I think for young people to know about like the success of marriage is about just being able to just exist with one another.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes, absolutely.

[Reshma Sajjani]

So how, though, do you also create boundaries? You said you're a people pleaser. And so how have you and the family created these kind of boundaries?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, we're still working on it. It's a work in progress. You know, I'm only. This is my third year on the court, so we are trying to figure out the new shape of our lives in this way. I think what I've tended to do is just only agree to do things that I know are going to expose me when I am willing to be exposed. So, in other words, you know, I get asked to do a lot of things and I couldn't possibly do them all. And I now am very selective because if it's an event that's going to be during a court week, for example, I know I'm going to have so much energy and focus that I have to devote to my day job that I'm not going to be able to be available for the people that are talking to me during this event. So I'll probably say no. I pick and choose the things to try to preserve my energy, because when I'm at the thing, I know I have to be available.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah, and you want to be, and.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I want to be.

[Reshma Sajjani]

And that's really smart. That's a really good. That's a really good. Like a really good tip. Because I think that that's. It makes you almost feel better about saying no.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

That's exactly right.

[Reshma Sajjani]

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[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Can you tell me about how you came to this wisdom and what it felt like for you putting it into action?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, you know, it didn't come easily, for sure. You know, one of the things I talk about in the book is all the struggles. You know, my daughter was not diagnosed as autistic until seventh grade, and right before kindergarten, she had her first seizure that I talk about in the book. Very dramatic for us. Traumatic in a lot of ways. And between, you know, kindergarten and seventh grade, there were years of trying to figure out how to support her, what was going on. There were misdiagnoses. There were times where we had her tested and people said, no, she doesn't have, you know, neurological differences. And so there were many, many, many hard nights and days to try to assess how to parent this very unusual kid. And so the moment that you read what you were referencing was the exhale that came after finally getting confirmation of what we thought could be going on and the permission to recognize that this is who she is. And now we have a way forward in how to support her, how to help her, how to help her grow into her best self.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

All the hard times, the prior times, kept us thinking, well, if we could just find, you know, the magic bullet, the secret sauce, then she could go on and be like we are. You know, I mean, I think the thing that happens to a parent very naturally is that you have this baby, this beautiful baby, and you start envisioning all the wonderful things that they are going to be and do. And many of them at times are patterned after you. Yes.

[Reshma Sajjani]

And how you were raised. Right.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

How you were raised and who you are. And then if it's not turning out like that, you start feeling like you're doing something wrong. And I think we missed that. There's really nothing that we can do that she has to be who she is, and it's not up to us to shape or frame or change her in any way.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah. And you say that in the book. You said you were harder on your daughter than you should have been, harder on yourself than you should have been.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes. Yes.

[Reshma Sajjani]

What do you mean by that? And, like, what do you wish you did differently?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, one of the things that my parents did that I think was so successful for me was that they set high expectations and they encouraged me to achieve them. So my mother used to say, you know, I complain. I don't want to do this. I don't want, you know, I can't do this. She would say, I'm sorry, Ketanji, has this been done before?

[Reshma Sajjani]

I know.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I love that. Has a person done this? If a person has done this thing, then you can do it, too. And that was sort of her mindset and their mindset, and I was such a pleaser that I would work and work and work and finally achieve whatever it was. And that was my model for parenting. And what I tried to do, when my daughter would say, you know, I can't do this. I'm not, you know, and she would cry and be upset, and I would say, no, no, sweetie, you got it. You can do it.

[Reshma Sajjani]

You know, has someone else done it? Exactly right.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And I didn't really appreciate that because of who she is. Uniquely, there were things that were going to be so challenging for her that that same model of parenting was not going to work right. I regret, in a way that I didn't see earlier, that she needed A different way.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah. But you did learn that you can't parent both your childs the same way.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

That's true, that's true. Every child is different. Our daughters ended up going to different schools throughout most of their lives because they were different environments and we have different kids, you know, and you have to let your children reveal themselves to be who they are.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah. And it's so hard not to imprint. I always say, maybe God didn't give me daughters because it would have been so hard for her. Right. In my expectations. Whereas I got two boys. I'm like, oh, it could be whatever. You know what I mean? One of the things that you said in your book also, I think it was so powerful. You said, if I really had understood what she was going through, I would have quit. But by the end, your daughter is thriving, like everything works out. But just imagine if you quit, we would not have you on the Supreme Court right now. That's true.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I mean, it is true. But I guess I wanted to really be transparent about the challenges. I mean, part of my writing all of these things is that I hope that other parents and people who are going through similar struggles will understand that it's not just them that, you know, successful people, people who've gotten to do things professionally that they want to do, have also been through some things. And that's. Maybe that'll be motivation to just keep going. Because you can combine a successful career with a family life and even one that has challenges.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah. We make it so hard for women to be moms and have dreams. Right. To feel like you're a devoted mother and a really great judge. You know, were there moments where you had some doubt that you just couldn't. You weren't going to be able to do both things.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, absolutely. You know, in the book, I talk about how many different jobs I've held from the moment of ending my clerkships and having my daughter, the first daughter, to getting on the Supreme Court. I had like a dozen different jobs because I was looking for the kind of work environment that would enable me to be fulfilled, but also there for my family. Early on, for example, I actually shifted to non litigation position to doing some mediation work, which I really didn't like that much because it was not what I was trained to do. And I remember thinking, okay, well, that's it. You know, this is going to be what I do for the rest of my life. Because there was not clear what the path was to get back into the kinds of legal work that I was interested in. But you know, things work out. You know, when you work hard and you believe and you have faith, things work out.

[Reshma Sajjani]

I think a lot of women still have admissions in midlife, but they're not sure how to get there because they're overwhelmed by life. What advice do you have for them?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

I think you have to hold on to that ambition, don't abandon it, but you do have to focus on where you are right now. It's sort of like a two pronged strategy. Know that you can get there, that it is worth continuing to think about and planning for and trying to do that long term goal. But to the extent possible, be present with the stage that you were in and try to find enjoyment where you are. You know, I used to have a placard on my wall that said, bloom where you are planted. And that reminded me that even though I knew I wanted to do this big thing, I'm planted here right now. And so I'm going to give it my all where I am.

[Reshma Sajjani]

That's really powerful. There's a scene in your book that I really resonated with. Right. You're coming home from work, you're about to do the second shift, right?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Sajjani]

And you pull up into the Safeway parking lot and you just take a nap for 20 minutes. I do this not in the Safeway parking lot, but lock myself in my room. Do you still do that now? Now you're in a lifetime appointment. You're holding the entire country on your shoulders. Your girls are grown, but they still need you. Patrick, you know what I mean. You still have your parents. We both have aging parents. How do you still find time for yourself?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You know, you have to make it. When I'm getting overwhelmed, I try to take a few minutes and work on some crafts project that I started a long time ago and haven't finished yet. I'll do a row of crochet. You know, I like the early mornings. I'm actually a morning person. And so I'll set my clock a little bit early, actually, and allow me to have the quiet of the morning. And I hired a boxing trainer, which I highly recommend.

[Reshma Sajjani]

You told me about this. Tell me more.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, no, I mean, you have to stay physically fit. I feel like so much of one's ability to deal with the pressures, psychologically and emotionally, also is connected to your physical stamina.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Are you boxing every day?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

No, no. Once a week. He comes to the court.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Oh, I love it.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

He comes to the court.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Is there a boxing ring in the court?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

There's no. It's Not a ring, it's a gym. It's our gym. We reserved the gym for an hour.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Oh my God. That's incredible. Is it hard to be in a lifetime appointment?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You know, it is and it isn't. I mean, it's sort of. It's both liberating and confining at the same time in a way because.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Tell me how those two things fit.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

It's liberating because you can decide what you think is right, do what you think is right, and not worry about your, you know, job or fortunes or whatever. And I think that's sort of the point of having lifetime appointments. It's confining because especially this job. There's really no next step for you as a justice. And so I'm used to kind of having a job and moving on after three or four years and so kind of knowing that this is it.

[Reshma Sajjani]

No, we're not. You're not allowed to leave knowing that.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

This is it, you know, is a little. It feels like the walls can close in pretty quickly in that way. But it's important to continue to do the work and to know that you're making progress even in a position like this.

[Reshma Sajjani]

It's like midlife liberating and confining.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes, exactly.

[Reshma Sajjani]

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[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh my goodness, you are.

[Reshma Sajjani]

You are so kind. We met on a board I'll never forget. I was so nervous and you, you saved me a seat. It was like and made me feel like you have been waiting for me. Right? And it did. It was. I'll never forget it. And I, you know, and I feel like you are like that in your life. I know you are like that in your life. And it's hard when you're juggling all these things to remember to kind of lead with kindness and to show up for others. How do you do that?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yeah, well, you know, I think that kindness is a function of humility. And in the book I talk about when I was very young learning some lessons in humility that have stuck with me that, you know, I really do know and believe that there but for the grace of God go I. Yeah, that I have the things that I have, and I'm in the position that I'm in, you know. Yes. Because of my hard work, but also because of great good fortune and favor and blessings.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yes.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And so with that mindset, I feel the need to be kind to the people that I interact with. And I think it's really important, especially when you're talking about people with whom you work, people who you regularly interact with. Kindness is crucial. I also tell the story in the book of a speech that was given my college graduation that was so powerful to me that I remember it even to this day. The basic story that was told in the speech was about a man who'd become a very prominent demolition expert, and he was flying first class everywhere. And as it turned out, he never learned to read. And so he was sitting on the plane and asking his seatmate to read the menu to tell him what was on it. And he ended up explaining that years before, he had gone to a community college and said, I'd like to learn how to read. This is when he was maybe in his 30s. And the woman at the front desk laughed and said, you must be kidding. And he was so humiliated that he turned and left and never went back and never tried to actually get any formal training in reading. And the person who told the speech said, you know, that the title of the speech was no insignificant words, that if that woman had just said fantastic, it would have changed this man's life forever. And so he was explaining that as college students, we had the responsibility now to understand that our words were significant, that they meant things to other people, and to be kind to the people that we interacted with. And I've never forgotten that.

[Reshma Sajjani]

I'm never going to forget this. That's such an important thing, I think, to teach ourselves and our children. So I want to talk about God. I think that's a lot of what brought you and I together and I think connected. It's a big theme in your life. It's a big theme in my life, and it's a lot about, I think, how we probably both find peace. I have gotten into this practice with a family where we try to pray together every night. I start my mornings. You know, we have our. In Hinduism, you have your version of kind of gospel music. It's called bhajans. And my parents used to listen to it, you know, in the morning or in the car. So, like, I've lately started that practice, too, which has been so soothing. What are some practices you employ?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Well, I do. I listen to gospel A fair amount, actually. I have a playlist that I get on the treadmill to. And then it runs in my head, you know, throughout the day.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Little.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Phrases and refrains. You know, at times we have done a practice that a friend of mine does, which is really focus on what you're thankful for. Not just at Thanksgiving time, but, you know, at other times. And articulating that, because I think that really helps to center the higher being that is in our lives.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Oh, I love that. That's beautiful. So you wrote there were a few people who really knew about your dream to be Supreme Court justice. Why'd you keep it a secret?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, my goodness. It's the kind of thing you can't really walk around saying you wanna do. I mean, it's really like being struck by lightning. So you certainly. You know. And I think, too, that when you have a big dream, if you articulate it, there's always the fear of failure. You know, if people know that this is something you're shooting for and then you don't make it, you're very exposed in a way that I think I was afraid of. So if I didn't tell anybody and then I didn't do it, then fine. Now I will say I did say in my college yearbook or my high school yearbook that I wanted to be a federal judge.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yep.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

And I think I got that idea because I had been introduced to Constance Baker Motley.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Can you tell everybody who she is?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Constance Baker Motley was the first federal female African American judge. And she was a civil rights lawyer before she became a judge and also was in New York City politics for a bit. But where she was most well known is she represented a number of civil rights figures during the Thurgood Marshall era and helped to craft the strategy for Brown versus the board and was just brilliant. She also was the first African American woman to argue before the Supreme Court. She argued something like 10 cases and won nine of them. So she was just incredible. And she happens to be my birthday twin. But it's interesting because she was born 49 years to the day before me. And the difference in our career prospects, ultimately, just because of that time difference, is striking. I have no doubt that she could have been on the Supreme Court, that she would have been an excellent justice. But she was born in a time where that wasn't possible for women, not to mention black women. And so I just feel so grateful and so fortunate to follow in her footsteps in this way.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Yeah. Your book took me in a lot of. A lot of emotional Ways I feel like I'm gonna cry now. It was so powerful. And I was trying to figure out, like, what's creating this emotion inside of me. And I think it was this feeling of hope, but it was also this feeling that you were able to get here. And, yes, you faced struggle, yes, you faced challenges, but the world also collided for you, that the message is also for women. It doesn't have to be this hard all the time. And then when it works out, it feels different. Like, you were saying that when you got the call, it was almost like you heard the ocean. It was like you heard love. You heard God. Right? It was joy. Because your journey was joyful.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes. No, I mean, you said it better than I could. My grandmother used to say when I was very, very, very young, that I was a blessed child. And I've carried that both in my head and in my heart throughout my life because I feel that. I feel grateful for the opportunities that I have, and that gratitude helps me to get through the hard times. She used to also say that to whom much is given, much is required. And so the hard times were the requirement for the joy that I feel about getting to serve the American people in this way, getting to be the mom of two incredible kids and being in this life.

[Reshma Sajjani]

So I want to close up here. You did write. You had two dreams.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes.

[Reshma Sajjani]

It was to be the first black female Supreme Court justice on Broadway.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

That's true.

[Reshma Sajjani]

So when are we going to Broadway?

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You know, I'm available if someone has a play that they would like.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Someone is listening right now. Judge Jackson is available.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

No, I love acting. I did a lot of it early on. I try to get to the theater as much as I can. So, yes, I'm willing to entertain all scripts.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Okay, so you're still keeping this dream, right? It's still there.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Reshma Sajjani]

I love it.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

So it's like.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Cause you know, it's true in midlife, you still need the thing, especially when you've already gotten there.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Right, Exactly.

[Reshma Sajjani]

All right, so that's. That's our mission community, is to get the justice in Broadway. This was so wonderful.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Thank you.

[Reshma Sajjani]

And thank you for doing well. Thank you for being on the pod. And thank you. Thank you for this book.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh, well, I am just so delighted that you liked it, that you are liked it. Recommending it. It was. It was a labor of love, and I'm glad that that shows.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Okay, midlifers, the first thing you must do after listening to this interview is go read Justice Jackson's book. Ah. It gave me all the feels. So much hope, so much light in this interview. It gave me some really great takeaways on how to really live my midlife. Number one, lead with kindness always. Number two, being kind doesn't mean you have to give up your boundaries. Setting time for yourself is maybe the best thing you can do to truly be present and genuinely show up for others. And third, if you got a dream, even if it's as big as Broadway, don't ever give up on it. Bloom where you are planted and the fruits of your labor will eventually pay off. Justice Ketanji Brow Jackson is a Supreme Court justice and the author of Lovely One. Her book is out now, so make sure you grab a copy wherever you buy your books. All right, that's it for our show. See you all next week. Bye. There's more of my so Called Midlife with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like Midlife Advice that didn't make it into the show. Subscribe now. In Apple Podcasts, I'm your host Reshma Sajani. Our producer is Claire Jones. This series is sound designed by Ivan Korayev. Our theme was composed by Ivan Karaev and performed by Ryan Jewell, Ivan Karaev and Karen Waltok. Our senior supervising producer is Kristen Lepore. Our VP of New content is Rachel Neal. Executive producers include me, Reshma Sajani, Stephanie whittleswax and Jessica Cordova Kramer. Series consulting and production support from Katie Cordova. Help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And let us know how you're doing in Midlife. You can submit your story to be included in this [e-mail] midlife follow my so Called Midlife wherever you get your podcast or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime member membership. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Why hello there. This is your pal Sarah Silverman. You know, the standup comic that's not.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Afraid of a diarrhea joke.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Oh my God, I'm so brave. I hope you're enjoying this podcast that you're listening to.

[Reshma Sajjani]

I am just dropping in here to.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

Let you know about another podcast I think you'd like and it's called the Sarah Silverman Podcast. Each week listeners from all over the world call in and they ask me for advice or they talk about something going on in their life. Anything. Their silliest, grossest, deepest, darkest situations. And then I respond whether I'm qualified to or not. Go ahead.

[Reshma Sajjani]

Search for the Sarah Silverman Podcast wherever.

[Ketanji Brown Jackson]

You get your podcasts Bye.

[Reshma Sajjani]

People love to pretend that there are simple formulas for living your best life. Now eat this and you won't get sick. Manifest it and everything will work out. But there are some things you can choose and some things you can't. And it's okay that life isn't always getting better. I'm Kate Bowler, and on Everything Happens, I speak with kind, smart, funny people about life as it really is. Beautiful, terrible, and everything in between. Let's be human together. Everything Happens is available wherever you get your podcasts.