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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things that people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see what you can save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Where is Daredevil a minor? Don't miss the return of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again. So what's next? I feel liberated. We're gonna take this city back over medicated in an all new season. Now streaming only on Disney. They're hunting us. It's time we started hunting them. I can work with them. This should be tons of fun. Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again now streaming only on Disney. Hello and welcome to My Victorian Nightmare. I'm your host, Genevieve Manion, and I'm here to talk about mysterious deaths, morbid fascinations, disturbing stories and otherwise spooky events from the Victorian era. Because to me there's just something especially intriguing, creepy and oddly comforting about horror and mayhem from the 19th century. So listener discretion is advised. Hello friends, and welcome to this, my 95th episode. And have I got an elegantly demonic episode for you today. Hidden between the petals of roses, carnations and pansies, we find not only buzzing bees and ladybugs, but a secret language that every Victorian sought to know. Floriography, the language of flowers, was used to express affection, romantic sentiments, as well as insults, accusations and dark omens. And on a quiet street in Atchison, Kansas sits an unassuming little Victorian house with a terrifying reputation. For decades, people have claimed that the so called Sallie House was home to the Spanish spirit of a tormented little girl named Sally. But over time, violent paranormal attacks, shadow figures and unexplained scratches have led many to believe that the little girl is just a mask for something far more sinister for you. Today, dear listener, we will discuss the elegant and insulting language of flowers, flowers, floriography and the demonically haunted Sallie House in Atchison, Kansas. But first, guys, seriously, I just have to say thank you to everyone who has joined the Patreon in the last few weeks. It really means so much to me. And until May 25, I will be sending everyone that joins a token of mine and Toby's appreciation. You still have another week. Toby is so very grateful that he can have his favorite treats. Thanks to you. And if you are not sure if you want to receive the show ad free, receive Victorian true crime extras, witchy content or dark poetry. But you might be interested. There is a free trial, so just go to myvictoriannightmare.com to find out more. Oh, and before we get to the Floriography and Demons, won't you follow me through our Cemetery of Corrections to the Crypt of Corrections yet again? I told you we'd be back. I have a very important correction to make Little Baby Auckland that very sad story about the baby skeleton that was found wrapped in a 1910 newspaper that I mentioned in a few episodes. The location of the situation was not Auckland in New Zealand, it was in Bishop Auckland in Northeast England. I had originally read the story in a New Zealand publication and my eyes jumped directly from New Zealand over the specific location to baby skeleton wrapped in a 1910 newspaper. So that's why I thought it was in New Zealand. I was was incorrect. Terribly sorry about that. Wanted to get the record straight. It doesn't appear that they've found any new leads on that story since the lovely funeral held on April 27. But the inquest into the baby's death is scheduled to continue today, May 18, so they're still working. The case is not closed. Okay, watch your step. If there is more info, I will be sure to share it and I will read extra slowly next time. My brain has a very difficult time slowing down after giddily studying horrifying things all day. I could have worse problems, but instead of pouring one or two glasses of wine to numb my brain in the evenings, lately I have been using Lumi Gummies instead. Consistent, mellow and super delicious Lume Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day de stressor, a midday mood boost, or helping get the best sleep ever, Lume Gummies has a strain that's right for you. I do not enjoy being high. It makes me panic. I get paranoid. It's just not a good time. But these are different. They don't make me high. They just calm my mind without zonking me out. I've been using the Watermelon Sorbet gummies at the end of the day to take the edge off, but not like make me too sleepy to watch the terrifying movies that I enjoy. But Lumi Gummies aren't just great for calming you down. They also have gummies to energize and uplift like their Orange Cream Cookies gummies. They've got ones that help you sleep, like the Plumberry Runtz gummies. Their hybrid gummies, like the Watermelon sorbet ones are great for like hanging out with friends or actually enjoying a movie without re running the entire day in your head. Lumi Gummies just make you feel good, not zonked, paranoid, or too high. Lumigummies are available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com that's L U M I gummies.com and use code victorian for 30% off your order. Again, that's L U M I Gummies.com, code victorian. Lumigummies.com, code victorian okay, let's discuss the elegantly intriguing and surprisingly dark world of Victorian floriography, the language of flowers. A little history, and then we will get to how you can tell someone that you'll be dead tomorrow with a lovely bouquet. Floriography is a cryptological form of communication through single flowers or mixed of flowers for more complex communication. Meanings have been attributed to flowers for thousands of years, not only in Europe, but Asia and Africa. In the 14th century, there was a tradition of sending different objects as coded love letters like locks of hair, pearls, gems, and especially flowers would share very specific, poetic, hidden messages that were fun to decipher. For Victorians, the use of flowers as a means of COVID communication coincided with their interest in botany. As more and more people moved into grim cities with few gardens and trees, these folks were desperate for a little nature, if only in their illustrated books, art and fashion. And for those who could get their hands on flowers, they were highly prized. The first published book in England with a list associating flowers with their symbolic definitions was introduced in 1809. It was called the Dictionary of the Language of Flowers. There were a few other books published shortly thereafter, and they flew off of Victorian shelves. Folks couldn't wait to send gifts of flowers, plants, and coded arrangements to one another that only those who knew would understand. These coded message bouquets were referred to as talking bouquets or word posies. They wouldn't just be sent as bouquets, but people would also wear them as corsaches, otherwise known as nosegays. Nosegays had been worn fashionably for centuries, primarily to mask the smell of city streets. Sorry, I'm a child. They'd use stronger smelling flowers though, like lilacs, lavender, lemon balm and roses. But they didn't have like meanings until the Victorian era when now you could walk into a ball wearing yellow chrysanthemum to show that your husband has broken your heart, or crocus to express that you can take no more abuse, or a cucumber to express that you're there to criticize everyone in the room. I wonder if pinning a pickle to your jacket meant the same thing, like a, like a. A critical gherkin on the lapel. Folks wouldn't just wear them or share them to convey messages, but they would also put them on gravestones to convey sentiments. In episode 68, I talked about grave symbolism in the Victorian era and touched on this a little bit. Flowers were a big part of mourning art in general. Like the hair of dead loved ones was often needle pointed into floral patterns or wreaths. Flowers were of course, important funerals to mask decomposition before embalming practices were widely used. And their appearance on gravestones or mausoleums conveyed very specific sentiments. For example, lilies represented resurrection, purity and innocence. Very common on gravestones for women and children, symbolizing their innocent souls returning to heaven. The meaning of roses changed depending on their state. Blooming roses meant a life fully lived, whereas a broken stem or drooping rose represented a life cut short. Rosebuds were often used for children. The beautiful soul that never fully bloomed ivy represented eternal friendship and fidelity because it clings and continues growing. I love that it symbolized the soul and the connections it made in life. Enduring beyond death. Poppies represented eternal sleep and remembrance. Poppies were of course associated with opium, the blissful sleep aid to them anyway. Willow trees represented a sad death, mourning and sorrow seen often on the graves of a a tragic death or just the overwhelming sadness of the family at the loss of a loved one. And cypress trees were one of the strongest symbols of death, mourning and eternal sorrow. They would appear on tombstones, but also were planted in cemeteries by graves. Because they were dark, tall and evergreen, they became associated with endurance and grief. Their upward reaching shape also gave them a spiritual, almost cathedral like appearance in graveyards. Oh, and I love this. Christina Rossetti's poem When I am Dead My Dearest invokes this imagery. It's a short poem and it reads. When I am dead, my dearest, sing no sad songs for me. Plant thou no roses at my head, nor shady cypress tree Be the green grass above me with showers and dew drops wet. And if thou wilt remember, and if thou wilt forget. I shall not see the shadows, I shall not feel the rain, I shall not hear the nightingale Sing on as if in pain and dreaming through the twilight that doth not rise nor set. Haply I may remember and haply may forget. Oh, how lovely. You may have noticed I added a little sound effect of a nightingale in there in regard to flowers that Victorians would send each other to send coded messages. The Language was so complex that not only did the flowers contain meanings, but the ways they were presented, the color variants, if they were broken or fresh, all changed the meanings. So let's discuss some examples of meanings that a simple bouquet could convey. I found these meanings in a book called the Language of an Alphabet of floral emblems from 1857. Beautifully illustrated. I'm going to put some of those illustrations on the Instagram link in the show notes. We'll begin with a few of the lovely meanings. There is chestnut, which symbolizes luxury. Double china Aster communicates I partake your sentiments. Hmm. Chamomile energy in adversity. Cranberry is a cure for heartache. Coltsfoot means justice will be done. Interestingly, in witchcraft, coltsfoot is what you could use in a justice spell. Or if you're like going to court or in a position where you would be judged, it can be used to make others look favorably upon you. I wonder how many of these meanings are derived from old folk magic. I'll fall down that rabbit hole the next time I wake up in a cold sweat at 3am, which is a new tradition of mine. I have been watching spooky movies too late again. And the consequences of my actions are so dewy and exhausting. Okay, back to the flowers. Motherwort expresses secret love. Lotus flower, estranged love, moss, maternal love. I love that I have such an affection for moss. A few lovely flowers that convey full statements. Milkvetch communicates your presence softens my pain. Mignonette signifies your qualities surpass your charms. And black mulberry, I will not survive you. And with that, a few of the darker flowers and their meanings or just more goth sounding flowers. Nightshade meant witchcraft, darkness and sorcery. There's a flower called love lies bleeding that meant hopelessness but not heartlessness. Ah, Locust tree meant affection beyond the grave. And gum rock rose meant I will die tomorrow. Heavens, persimmon, bury me amid nature's beauties. Japanese rose meant your beauty is your only attraction. Ooh. And snake's foot simply meant horror. I think my favorite is lettuce, which means cold hearted. Imagine getting a box of like iceberg lettuce in the mail as an insult in the 1800s. I would cherish that. I mentioned that the manner in which you receive a flower would also express meaning. And in the book, the Alphabet of Floral Emblems, the introduction states if a flower be given reversed, it implies the opposite of that thought or sentiment which it is ordinarily understood to express. Again, a rosebud from which the thorns have been removed, but which has still its leaves conveys the sentiment I fear, but I hope the thorns implying fear as the leaves hope. Remove the leaves and thorns and then it signifies that there may be neither hope nor fear, while again a single flower may be made emblematical of a variety of ideas. A rosebud that has been already used and deprived of its thorns says there is much hope, but stripped of its leaves also it tells there is everything to fear. Now I love all of this, but I would be flooded with anxiety if I got a bouquet of flowers in the mail and then I had to decipher if there is everything to fear. Like what if it got delivered the wrong way up or down? My dyslexia anxiety is kicking in. Flower dyslexia would add a whole other dimension to my current communication afflictions. It all sounds lovely though on paper I am a toasty sleeper. It is a nightmare. I put a lot of effort into trying to stay cool and at time the the moment My best line of defense is my luxurious Blissey pillowcase. I always thought that like cotton was the most breathable cool fabric for pillowcases. But no. 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Because you're a listener, Blissey is offering 60 nights risk free plus an additional 30% off when you shop@blissey.com MVNPod that's B L-I-S-S-Y.com MVNPod and use code MVNPod to get an additional additional 30% off. Your skin and hair will thank you. OK, let's discuss the Sallie House in Atchison, Kansas known as one of the most haunted houses in the country. But not just for its spooky floating specters or bumps in the night, it's known for the physical and emotional violence of its presumed spectral inhabitants. Witnesses have reported psychological manipulation, sudden dark mood swings, as well as physical attacks, burns, scratches. Some have claimed to feel choked. Some have claimed to hear menacing deep voices, growling. Some see shadow figures. And many have claimed to feel a sense that they are being hunted from the moment they walk in the door. A malevolent demonic energy is believed to infect the walls of this house. And there are legends and theories that folks believe may explain this energy, and we'll dive into them. Before we talk about what people think about the dark history and the darkness felt in this house. Things that, to be honest, can't be substantiated, let's discuss what we know about the dark history of Atchison, Kansas, where this house was built. This house was built around the 1850s in a dark and turbulent time known as Bleeding Kansas. Yes, that is the name of the era of this state. It was a violent conflict over whether Kansas would enter the union as a free or slave state. The newly created town of Acheson was very much pro slavery. Abolitionists were violently subdued, some murdered. Political threats, raids and unrest were commonplace just as this home was being built. And apart from the political violence and violence of slavery itself, the area was suffering heavily from repeated outbreaks of diseases like cholera, smallpox, diphtheria and typhoid, all horrifying diseases to die from. Sanitation was poor. Child mortality rates were particularly high. Even in a time where mortality rates for children and women in childbirth were high across the country, Atchison was even higher than much of the nation. Cemeteries in and around Atchison from the time are full of tiny graves for thousands of babies, children and mothers that died in this era. The town is also a river town, and newspapers of the day are filled with drownings, steamboat accidents, river suicides, industrial injuries, unidentified bodies washing ashore. It was also a port town, so there was plenty of violence around the docks, saloons, gambling halls, freight landings. And with little legal infrastructure, everywhere the violence went, injustice followed closely behind. The 1800s was a dark century all around, but this little pocket was particularly dark. Kansas in the mid-1850s to the late 1800s was also a particular hotbed for spiritualism and folk magic practicing, specifically German folk magic. Practices and stories of folks making deals with the devil, making pacts with demonic entities are surprisingly common in this little southern town. A home that is not far from the Sallie House, known as the gargoyle home on North Fourth street, was owned by a lawyer and politician named B.P. wagoner, who was said to have allegedly accumulated his wealth by making a deal with the devil. And he created gargoyles for the home, not to keep evil out, but to keep it in. And it is believed that the house is cursed to this very day. In fact, this is a very haunted town. I read about a female ghost that is known to haunt Atchison street, who allegedly died in a carriage that sunk into frozen water. And residents claim that they can hear a woman's voice beckoning them to join her at the bottom of the river. Ooh. People who take photos of themselves outside of a home called the McInter Villa, built in 1890, claim to see shadow figures in their photographs. It really seems to be a spooky little town full of some very dark paranormal energy overall. And I say all of this to illustrate how the Sallie House might have originally attracted its issues. The deeper I dig into the Sallie House story, and the more I read about people' experiences in the home, the more I feel like the darkness of the past may have found a way to store itself within the walls. And perhaps a certain family introduced an energy that woke it all up. According to demonologists, hauntings like the one in the Sallie House aren't hauntings at all. They aren't human spirits that remained after death. The spirits or energies inside never lived at all. They exist only to to they are demonic. And I believe in this stuff. I don't know why I believe it. I don't think I've ever come face to face with a demon. I think I've encountered, like, dark energies, but nothing that had the power to hurt me if I didn't allow it. So before we discuss the house, let's discuss how this darkness may have gotten stuck there. And again, this is all according to demonologists. The sites of murders, suicides, wars, or prolonged suffering can leave an imprint on a place. And some believe that this dark energy can act as a doorway. The darkness itself is a portal like energy attracting like energy. And a demonic presence can slip through this residual energy left behind and add itself to the mix. Some believe that the opposite is true, that demonic energy is particularly attracted to good kind energy because it becomes stronger when it destroys it. Quick side note, I was researching demonic experiences that people have claimed to have on Reddit, and I found this one that I need to share before we dive entirely into the house, because it's going to give me fantastic nightmares for weeks. I am so excited. This was an example of someone who believed that because they were good. Because they were a good Christian. That is what attracted a demon to her. She said the closer to God she got, the more demons were out to get her. And this is how she said this manifests. Quick warning. This is top tier spooky stuff. I went to the bathroom and my closet door was open slightly but the lights were on clear as day. She writes all in caps in the form of some clothing. On my top shelf was the face of my dad smiling at me. My dad has not passed away but had a heart attack the week before. It was the most demonic and scary smile in the form of some something evil. I took a double take, was fully sober and alert and sure enough the face was still there, smiling but crying. This time with tears. I truly believe at that moment a demon was mocking me. Spiritual warfare and the demonic realm is no joke. End quote. Look, I have all kinds of personal opinions about all of this and they are just that. And they should be regarded and respected as exactly that. Just my own opinion and I can't judge anyone else or claim to know better in regard to demonic realms. This gal might have some serious issues. She might be lying or she might seriously be explaining a demonic event because that totally tracks. That is horror movie gold. Reminds me a bit of it follows how the it becomes people that you know and they look horrifying or the movie smile. Ugh. Okay, let's dig right into the Sallie house and what what is inside the house itself can be found on North 2nd Street, a modest one and a half story home, simpler and less decorative than the more elegant Victorian homes that line the brick streets in this 19th century town. Atchison contains some pure Victorian architectural gems with the large like wraparound front porches, the gingerbread lattices. This one is just a humble white and brick home with blue trimmed. And even though it is just a normal little house, the photos chill me to my bones. For some reason I put pictures on the Instagram take a look link in the show notes. Let me know how you feel. Apparently the energy from this house can be felt from the outside by some. And even some skeptics have said that they couldn't even bring themselves to walk through the front door. I could never visit a place like this. I would be so terrified that I'd get possessed that I wouldn't enjoy a single second of the spookiness that has always been a raging fear of mine. I think I've mentioned before how I used to run to my local church when I was a kid like after school. And I would just sit in the silent, dark sanctuary for hours, like a cat, just staring at the light coming through the stained glass windows, thinking, they can't get me in here. Totally normal behavior for a 13 year old. The central theory about how. Why the house is haunted or infected with this demonic energy can be traced to a legend, A story that cannot be verified, but does have some verifiably true details. I know because I verified them myself. In the late 1800s, a man named Dr. Charles D. Phinney lived in this house. It's unclear if his family owned the home before he did. They may have, but it's only clear that he was born in that town and lived there all of his life and then did live in this house. And as the legend goes, goes, a young girl named Sally was brought to his home suffering from severe abdominal pain, possibly appendicitis. He chose to perform an emergency operation in the home and did not have anesthesia. The little girl screamed in agony and died of terror and shock at the pain that she experienced on the table. And it is believed that it is either her spirit that haunts the house or that a demonic spirit is mimicking, Mimicking this little girl. Now, there are no verifiable reports, no death certificates, no medical files that show that a little girl died in that house or that he even practiced medicine out of the house. We do know that he was a surgeon, not just a doctor, but that's all we know. Many paranormal investigators doing EVP recordings connect with a little girl named Sally. And they've noticed a baby behavioral pattern where she starts sweet, gentle, and shy. Then once your guard is down, a different kind of intelligence reveals itself. She or it begins to use psychological attacks. Some of these specific attacks have been described by investigators as sudden rage or aggression toward the people that they're with, like their fellow investigators or friends. A few folks have left investigation investigations early because of sudden, overwhelming panic attacks. Some have reported seeing terrible imagery in their minds. People being murdered, children's bodies rotting. Numerous investigators report that something followed them when they left the house, experiencing lingering sadness, emotional numbness, night terrors, and sleep paralysis weeks after their visit. Ugh. This kind of deception, particularly like adopting the form of or mask of a friendly or benign spirit to trick you into welcoming them and gaining your trust, then switching and becoming violent or psychologically abusive, is a hallmark of demonic malevolent entities, according to demonologists. In fact, several demonologists that have investigated the house warned that engaging with the little girl in the house was dangerous. They experienced that it showed awareness of religious symbols, reacted aggressively to prayers, and demonstrated that it knew how to scare and control people on a deep level. That a child wouldn't know how to do. This reminds me obviously of Poltergeist. Remember the woman who came in to clean the house? She said that the demon or dark energy in the house spoke to little Carol Ann in a language that only a child could understand. To her, this energy was simply another child. But to us, he is the beast. Oh, God. I think that. I think that was one of my very favorite horror movie line deliveries of all I remember. I think I cried when she said that. Not because I was scared or because I was sad, obviously, but I think it was just so cool that I didn't know what to do with my emotions. That's just one of my favorite lines in horror movie history. It also makes me think of what folks have said about the Villisca Axe murder house. Numerous paranormal investigators have said that they don't believe any human spirits are in that house. Only demonic energies that are pretending to be children. And for the creepiest reason I spoke about this on episode 14. One investigator asked the children spirits who they are in the house and they gave their names. But this investigator researched the names and they were all the names of the suspected murderers of the family. There were a number of suspects in that case. And they never found the killer of the whole family in that house. And the two guests that were saying, it is such a tragic story that just turns my spooky little brain inside out. That is so messed up demonic. One would say. So numerous folks think something similar similar is going on in the Sallie house. Now, although some reports say that mild disturbances were experienced in the home between the 1800s and the 1900s. Objects going missing, reappearing in weird places, doors opening and closing on their own. I can't find any sources for those claims. There are a lot of details about previous owners and their haunting claims. But there are no names, no sources ever listed, no newspaper articles. It doesn't seem like any paranormal activity was at least publicly reported until the 1990s, when a family moved into the house. The Pickman family. According to Debra and Tony Pickman, in 1992 they were expecting a baby. And they thought that this would be the perfect starter home. But when they moved in, almost immediately, they began to experience very strange events and feelings. They first noticed flickering lights. Their dog would growl at the nursery door, never a good sign. And Tony noticed one day that stuffed bears that were placed in the nursery had been Placed in a circle on the floor. They put the bears back and they left the room. But the next time that they went in, a bear that had been sitting on a chair was now on the floor. They were like, that's creepy. Maybe we should do an experiment to see if we have haunted bears. So they put it back and they closed the door. They went back the next day, you guessed it, bears on the floor. They were getting pretty freaked out, but they didn't want to think too hard about it. They had a kid on the way and just kind of wanted to push out of their heads that they may have a haunted bear situation, which I understand completely. When I thought that my TV was haunted. Remember that? A year ago, because it was turning off and on randomly. I was waking up and it was on in the morning after. I absolutely turned it off the night before. I was like, I have a spooky podcast to produce. I can't focus on haunted TVs right now. I don't have the bandwidth, latitude, or longitude for that reality. So I get it. They felt the same. They put the bear back on the chair, they closed the door behind them, tried to put it out of their heads. But the next day, Deborah was like, I gotta know if that bear is on the floor again. So she went back up and the bear, bear was on the floor again. She and Tony were now officially creeped out. They called Tony's brother Larry to come over and help them try to understand what was up with these bears. And being a great brother, he was like, put the kettle on. I'll be right there. They all together went back up to the nursery. They opened the door and the bear was where they left it. They were like, larry, thanks for coming. False haunted bear alarm. But allegedly, when they all went downstairs, a bear that had been brought downstairs earlier was now facing the opposite direction that they had placed it on the chair. They had officially had it. They got out of the house. They stayed at their parents place, and Deborah decided to make some phone calls the next day. They say demons don't get jokes like in an exorcism situation to throw a demon off. You just ask it like, why the chicken crossed the road, and it will throw them for a loop and diminish their power. I do not remember where I heard this information, but this demon sounds like it had a pretty great sense of humor. So I'm not sure if that information is true. Now, although there are no other published instances of hauntings in the house before these folks, Deborah claimed to contact previous owners after the bear incident and asked, what is up with this place? Did you also experience rotating bears? And according to them, one tenant recalled frequently finding toys scattered in the nursery and mentioned that her daughter had an imaginary friend named Sally. And Larry, Tony's brother, reached out to a psychic friend of his over the phone. She didn't come to the house, but she did tell him that there was a ghost in the house. A young girl, and her name was Sally. Another brother came to the house. He was hearing the hubbub in the family and wanted to see this rotating bear situation for himself. And he brought a camera. He said if he took a picture of the bear, maybe they would see a ghost in the picture. Good ide. So Tony said, give it a shot. His brother said, sally, if you are here, say cheese. And when he took the picture, allegedly, they both saw the bear spin around. And this is where things turned darker. The demon was done with the parlor tricks. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight time. Dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now@palmolive.com by this point, the Pickmans had had their baby, and it was in the nursery. Both Tony and his brother ran up the stairs and to tell Deborah that a bear just spun around. Grab the kid and get the kid in the car. She did, and Tony was trying to buckle the baby into the seat. And then he felt a sudden pain on his back. He found three deep bleeding scratches all the way down his spine. They invited that psychic friend of Tony's brother to the house to see if she could get a solid idea of what was really going on there. And she gave them the most classic basic bad horror movie advice. To be fair, she was being tricked into believing the demon was just a little girl, too. But she told them not to ignore it, but to acknowledge it and include Sally in their lives. Lean in. She was likely just upset that a new baby was in the house taking attention away from her. So Deborah said okay. And she even bought a doll just for Sally and started feeling a maternal protection pull toward the spirit. And when Tony would suggest something still didn't feel right, she found herself defending Sally, but noticed that she didn't understand why she felt such a strong need to defend her. It felt like she was being compelled to. I'm sorry, I'm leaving that one in. Before you leave angry comments, you should know the amount of burps and struggles that I edit out of the show. If anyone ever heard the string outs of the raw recordings, they would just. They'd put me in a zoo. I am an animal. I continue. Toady began to feel a sense that he was unworthy, welcome. He felt watched and followed. A feeling of being hunted that he always needed to be looking over his shoulder. He started hearing whispering around the house that Deborah couldn't hear. Numerous voices that began talking to each other, but he couldn't understand what they were saying. He also claimed to feel something nibbling on his toes. Ugh. When he tried to tell Debra about this, she would defend Sarah Sally, saying she was just being playful. Then one night they had a bunch of friends over for dinner and they all noticed Tony's forehead was bleeding. They saw the scratch appearing as if it were slowly drawing across his head. He was very freaked out. But again, Deborah was like, that's just our sweet dead girl playing a silly game. She means no harm. He began suffering from horrifying nightmares. And still Debra kept defending Sally until candles began lighting themselves in the baby's room. Debra told Sally to stop lighting candles or the house could burn down. But more things started catching fire. An oil lamp and then a rotating teddy bear, which snapped Deborah out of her manipulative trance. And she was like, oh my God, my house is haunted by a deep demon. So they finally called in paranormal investigators, clergy, psychics and demonologists. They had the house blessed by clergy, but when they would come, the energy would only get more aggressive. Responses were mixed by folks coming in to investigate. Some others also believed it was only a little girl spirit in the house, while some were like, there's absolutely a demon in this house. Take your kid and run for your life. And numerous investigators claimed to experience scratches, headaches, nightmares, and lingering emotional distress weeks after leaving the house. One of the mediums that worked with them reached out to Fox, which resulted in a segment on the show, Sightings. The crew of the show came out four times and they recorded Tony's shirt catching on fire out of nowhere, as well as scratches appearing on his skin. After the show, things got more much worse. According to them, they became increasingly isolated, anxious and paranoid. Especially Tony. He couldn't sleep and Deborah felt that this was destroying their marriage. So not too long after the show they moved out. The last straw was that Tony claimed he felt a force try to push him off an upstairs balcony. But like many other reported cases, when they left, they still had lingering effects. Nightmares, anxiety, society. And a feeling like something had followed them. After the show, the house became infamous. Books were written, documentaries produced, more TV shows. And countless paranormal investigators have gone through the house trying to understand what is going on there. And look, I know how all of this sounds. When you got a ghost story. Were the only sources. Two people who were no doubt paid for that segment to be aired. And Debra wrote a book about the house. Some money was made off this situation, perhaps. Let's imagine a likely scenario for a minute and assume maybe they moved into the house and found that the inspector didn't do as good a job as they thought they did. Maybe they found out they had termites, maybe some black mold and wanted to get out of there and make a little money while they did. It wouldn't be the first time that a family cooked up a ghost story to make a little cash. But the thing that sets the Sallie house apart from many other supposedly haunted houses is the creepy, the consistency of the very specific and original, unexplained and horrifying phenomena that dozens of paranormal investigators have experienced and recorded. Allegedly, investigators have brought in motion sensors, infrared cameras, electromagnetic field meters. And so many of them claim to get the same angry whispering in the recordings, the voice that they connect with, mockingly repeated repeats the names of the people doing the investigations, and growls when religious symbols are introduced. These are very specific things. And numerous unrelated investigations have claimed to have gotten the exact same results. There have also been separate investigations that all show the same cold spots outside the nursery and in the basement, not necessarily in other parts of the home. And numerous investigators claim that the drops in temperature coincide with a pressure in the chest, Shortness of breath, and emotional shifts. Another persistent, consistent experience from visitors is that this thing follows you. That is not common for most haunted houses. Investigators have claimed that nightmares, anxiety, depression, and unexplained fear plagued them for weeks and some have said even for months after they entered the house. This is known in the demonology world and as attachment. And as I mentioned, I genuinely believe in this stuff. I believe we ourselves can leave our energy in places. I believe our energy can affect those around us without saying a word, and that you can even take it home. As a practicing witch, I spend a good amount of time clearing and cultivating energy within my own home and around my body. And I absolutely believe that These things can follow you. And apparently demons don't have a limit to how much they can leech out. They're not like ice cream, where if numerous people sit on some melted ice cream, eventually the stain is gonna get less and less. You're just gonna keep taking that ice cream home. Now, of course, there are psychological explanations for all of this going to a very spooky house, even if it's all just like suggestion. It isn't really haunted, but you have a horrifying experience there that alone can linger into like a PTSD effect that comes with you. This can happen in any horrifying situation. But what's wild about this house is that numerous investigators have claimed that what lingered was far more distressing than anything they experienced inside the house. Some claimed that they didn't experience anything whatsoever in the house, but took this with them. So it's not that they got scared out of their wits in the house, triggering a long lasting psychological scar. Something horrible flourished after the fact. After the Pickmans moved out, other tenants moved in and quickly moved out again. And not long after that, the house became open to the public. You can even stay there overnight if you want to get demonically possessed. Awesome. There are strict rules, however, against performing any seances or attempting to cleanse the house of spirits, which has been attempted in the past and allegedly only only made the demonic entity even stronger. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please rate the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Leave me comments because I love them so much and for ad free listening, True crime extras, dark poetry and witchy content. 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