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- [00:00]
Dochi
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brooke Devard
This is Brooke Devard and you're listening to the Naked Beauty podcast. The way that Dochi and her team devoured Paris Fashion Week deserves a masterclass. This episode is all about the artistry behind Dochi, the swamp princess from Tampa, Florida. The trap, Grace Jones, as she calls herself, the Grammy winning artist. Dochi now. I was in the audience at this year's Grammys when she accepted the award for best hip hop album. She was only the third person to win the award. Lauryn Hill. First, the miseducation of Lauryn Hill, one of the best albums ever made. Cardi B then won and then do won in 2025. And she was one of the few artists that when it was announced that she won, everyone got on their feet. I mean, all of the top a list musicians in the audience, everyone was on their feet and she had the best speech of the night. I want to play this one particular clip of her speech.
- [01:00]
Dochi (speech excerpt)
I know that there is some black girl out there, so many black women out there that are watching me right now. And I want to tell you, you can do it. Anything is possible. Anything is possible. Don't allow, don't allow anybody to project any stereotypes on you that tell you that you can't be here, that you're too dark or that you're not smart enough, or that you're too dramatic or you're too loud. You are exactly who you need to be to be right where you are. And I am a testimony.
- [01:32]
Brooke Devard
Now, the reason we're talking about Dochi and her creative vision today is because something magical happens when creative people collaborate with other creatives that have vision to create something that's entirely new. What Dochi and her team are doing are subverting expectations and pushing boundaries on what beauty is. She's got talent. She's got beauty. She's got a point of view. She is an openly queer artist. She is a beautiful dark skinned woman, something that we don't necessarily always see in the mainstream. And she's creating moments. Chelsea Ochena, Dochi's makeup artist, and Malcolm Marquez, her hairstylist, are helping to create these moments that are iconic. And iconic is a word that is thrown around a lot. But when you think about true iconography, we have to think about the way that these Paris Fashion Week images came out one after another after another after another. When she was standing in front of the Louvre in that yellow Valentino couture gown, I mean, it just took my breath away. Then we see her walking into the Schiaparelli show with her big blowout and her waist defined with that incredible gown that she was wearing. Then she's at Tom Ford in a leotard with a mullet cut, and then she's at Chloe with ankle length braids and bare feet and this bohemian goddess look. We were just constantly being fed beauty and inspiration, and that sort of thing doesn't happen accidentally. It takes time and collaboration amongst artists to figure out what is it that we want to express, what do we want to convey, what is the image that we are creating here and what do we want people to feel? Because I felt something looking at those im. And yes, the clothes were phenomenal. Shout out to Sam Wolf, her stylist. But the hair and makeup just, to me, brought everything together in a way that really felt like art. I'm so honored to be joined by the artists behind Dochi's incredible looks here on today's Naked Beauty podcast. So let's get into it. First, we're going to hear from Malcolm Marquez about creating these incredible hair looks for Dochi. Malcolm Marquez, welcome to Naked Beauty. I am so excited to have this conversation with you.
- [03:33]
Malcolm Marquez
Thank you so much. I'm excited too.
- [03:35]
Brooke Devard
So you all saw how the Internet collectively lost their minds, me included, with Yoshi's Paris Fashion Week run, which I will say she has been killing it for a long time. But Paris Fashion Week, I feel like the world stood still and was like, this needs to be discussed.
- [03:50]
Malcolm Marquez
Yeah, it was. It was major, major.
- [03:52]
Brooke Devard
So were you all in Paris as you were seeing all of the online discourse? Like, did you know in real time that what was happening was so iconic?
- [03:59]
Malcolm Marquez
I think I did, to be honest, only because the very first event that we did was her performing at the Louvre.
- [04:07]
Brooke Devard
Right.
- [04:08]
Malcolm Marquez
And like, I remember when we got that news, even I was like, whoa. Like, I've known that things are blowing up and especially post Grammys, like, you know, I knew this was coming, but I think the Louvre being our kind of kickoff event in Paris was like, oh, yeah, people are about to be watching us, like, really closely.
- [04:28]
Brooke Devard
Yes, I was actually. I was there in the room at the Grammys when she won. I was so overwhelmingly happy for her. How long have you been working with Dochi?
- [04:36]
Malcolm Marquez
So we started together in 2022. I want to say the Pacer music video is the first project that we ever did together. So we started then. And then we maybe had like, maybe like six or seven months where we weren't working together. And yeah, for the last two years, when we started on the Doja Cat tour last year, was when we got really locked in again.
- [05:03]
Brooke Devard
I love it. Well, seeing the work that you do, it's very avant garde. It's very unexpected. You put things together in ways that I haven't seen before. And I feel like her music is very similar.
- [05:14]
Malcolm Marquez
I think we see each other. I mean, it's great. Like, she has such a strong vision for who she is. And I feel like I have a really strong vision of who I am. And I think that always makes for really good collaboration. When two strong visions come together, if those people have a lot of mutual respect for each other, then they can create some amazing art.
- [05:37]
Brooke Devard
You know, let's go back to the Stephen Colbert performance where there were those incredible interconnected braids. What did it take to pull that off?
- [05:48]
Malcolm Marquez
So that was. That was her idea. Originally. She came to me and told me she was inspired by the Solange work of the connected dresses. Carlotta Guero, who I think Solange was working with at that time, who I had also worked with, who did connected braids. And we wanted to kind of translate that into more of like a black hair context. So rather than just like single braids doing it with cornrows. So it was maybe three rehearsals and I made these kind of prototype braids and kind of just tied all the girls together with them. But it was do's choreography. So it was kind of a matter of just watching the choreography and figuring out the proper length that the hair needed to be. The, you know, how the girls could stand in what formation so they wouldn't end up tangled. Because it was set up like one wrong move and somebody's head could have been pulled or braids could have gotten tangled.
- [06:58]
Brooke Devard
And it's a whole mathematical equation.
- [07:01]
Malcolm Marquez
Yeah, it was giving women in stem, like I was. I was holding my breath the whole performance. Even with how secure I knew it was because all the hair was sewed together, it was still. We pulled that together really fast.
- [07:17]
Brooke Devard
Incredible. So when you're doing these kind of creative collaborations, how long do you spend mood boarding, talking about what the hair is going to be? Does the outfit it inform the hair? Like, how much time do you have to figure out what the hair look is going to be?
- [07:32]
Malcolm Marquez
Sometimes it's the same day and sometimes it's weeks out. You know, it really depends on the project. I think with more like fashion based things, we definitely start with the outfit. Her stylist, Sam Wolf, is constantly in the conversation. Whether it's hair, makeup, or anything. As a team, we really build out every look altogether. And it is really a Matter of creating balance with the fashion and the hair. But, you know, because everybody on the team is so talented and is kind of specializing in something, we also find ways to make sure that everybody's work can still kind of stand out, whether it is something simple like braids or a ponytail. Like, how do we make that more exciting in terms of, like, proportion or length or shape?
- [08:24]
Brooke Devard
Yes. That. That slightly unexpected twist, I think, runs through all of your work. Whether it's Dochi, Lil, Nas x, Rihanna, everyone you work with. I feel like there's shape, there's like the sculptural element. What are you taking in to inspire your hair artistry?
- [08:39]
Malcolm Marquez
You know, all of our work is really a collection of everything we've ever interacted with, you know, and I think with a lot of the sculpture elements of my work, I have a art based kind of background. I've always been like a creative kid who just made stuff growing up, you know, I made clothes. I used to make, like, little props that I would see like on stage. I'm a little monster. So I used to, like, remake a lot of Gaga's props. I would make, like, glasses and hats. And as I got older, I got really into like, punk culture and punk fashion and, you know, I'm interested in politics. So, like, how do we make something political? And, you know, it's a lot of things all mixed together at once.
- [09:30]
Brooke Devard
And where are you from?
- [09:32]
Malcolm Marquez
I grew up in Tucson, Arizona.
- [09:34]
Brooke Devard
Okay, and so your parents in Tucson, Arizona, were they supportive of this? Did they understand? Did they push you towards having a creative career?
- [09:44]
Malcolm Marquez
Yeah, I mean, they didn't push me at all in any direction. My parents just supported me in whatever I wanted to do. And, you know, I'm eternally grateful to them for that. I think it's like, I look at my upbringing and I think because I've been able to kind of swim through so many different types of creativity, once I found my thing, it really let me be successful and them letting me try so many different things and be myself and be a freak and be like, just do all these different things. Let me be the person that I am.
- [10:26]
Brooke Devard
Yes, I read an interview you did. I think it was with office where you said that, like around 14 is when you kind of understood that hair was a part of your identity. So from a very early age, you knew that this is something you wanted to pursue.
- [10:41]
Malcolm Marquez
Yeah, I started in high school doing hair and it was just like a fun little. Like, I would like, go home from school and like, the girls had like their curling Irons. And I'd be like, can I curl your hair? You know, like fun little stuff like that. Which turned into like the first weave I ever did was on my ex boyfriend doing the, like, the like, rated R Rihanna mullet, like, shaved side look, which, like, I had no clue what I was doing. Like, it was a mess. But we were so cool at that time, you know, And I just. I don't know, I found what I wanted to do, I guess.
- [11:17]
Brooke Devard
Yeah. And I should also mention that people are listening to this, but you are also black, which I am black.
- [11:23]
Malcolm Marquez
I know I sound like a Valley girl, but I am black.
- [11:26]
Brooke Devard
No, you don't sound like a Valley girl. Not that there's anything wrong with Valley girls, but at least for me. Tell me if you agree with this, but sometimes I feel like black hair is meant to adhere to certain standards. Like that we have these certain standards around black hair. Like, oh, her hair is laid. The edges are like this. Like, there's like, black hair seems to get confined in a way that I don't feel like, you know, Bjork or more alternative white artists are put in these same sort of boxes.
- [11:54]
Malcolm Marquez
Exactly. I mean, and that's. That is a huge element to my work is rule breaking, rule following, but also rule breaking. Like, I like to present something familiar and then do something almost wrong with it sometimes. Like, there is a shoot that I did with DO for Paper magazine where I literally turned the wig inside out and, like, the whole top was just the underside of the lace and you could see all of the tracks and like, everything on the inside. And then all of the hair was just coming out underneath. She talks about it in her work too, but, you know, showing things that, like, shouldn't necessarily be shown or representing something. Like you said, like, we're not afraid of frizz or teasing something out or something looking lived in or messy, which I do feel like has kind of is missing in black hair is that freedom and the way that we are policed by society, but also the way that we police each other in how we are supposed to look, I think is an important thing to present on, like, a larger platform as possible.
- [13:11]
Brooke Devard
Yeah, absolutely. And to your point about showing jeans that aren't always shown, I'm talking to Chelsea later, but the face tape is such a kind of signature. Did I catch that? You call her Doe? Because that's a very cute nickname.
- [13:24]
Malcolm Marquez
Yes, yes.
- [13:26]
Brooke Devard
I have to go through these Paris Fashion Week looks because they just. They all just live in my head rent free. The Schiaparelli look. That was that incredible blowout. What made you opt for that hairstyle once you saw the dress?
- [13:42]
Malcolm Marquez
Oh, that dress was so good. You know, the beauty that we discussed for that look was just fresh, you know, from the hair to the makeup. Joe wanted to look fresh, she wanted to look young. And, you know, the dress, while it is flowy, it's all about that waist. You know, it's about that snatch snatched waist. And I think something that I consider when approaching a look like that is the balance that I was talking about earlier. And I think the balance that I look at is control versus release or, like freedom. So it's like there's so much control in the waist that I feel like you balance that out with the other elements being more free flowing or, you know, easy, where if it was like tight waist, slick hair, it's just like it feels overdone. And I feel like something that we look for with any look that we do is not it looking over styled or overdone or overworked. You know, walking out on the street to go to a show is not the same thing as doing an editorial where you're in a controlled space to create a specific type of image where, you know, we want it to still feel, like, approachable and, like, real. You know, doe is very real. And. And we need to keep that through the glam.
- [15:11]
Brooke Devard
Yes. And then you switched it up to this incredible mullet at Tom Ford.
- [15:17]
Malcolm Marquez
Yes.
- [15:18]
Brooke Devard
Tell me about that process.
- [15:19]
Malcolm Marquez
Okay. So we actually did that look after the acne show where she had this other crazy braid look. So she was in the braids first, the acne braids. We had to take all of that out, put the Tom Ford hair on and style it in the car on the way to the Tom Ford show.
- [15:40]
Brooke Devard
No, we styled that. You cut a mullet in a moving well. Okay.
- [15:45]
Malcolm Marquez
I cut the mullet at the hotel before we left. Because we have, mind you, we have done this a few times. This is not my first time switching does hair in a car on the way to events. So I do know what it takes to prepare for these things. So I can't really cut her hair in the car, but we did have to take out her hair and put the new unit on. And I did press it out in the car.
- [16:10]
Brooke Devard
Forgive my ignorance, but how do you press hair in a car? Is it like a battery operated flat iron?
- [16:15]
Malcolm Marquez
So I have a ghd makes it cordless. Flat iron.
- [16:19]
Brooke Devard
Cordless. Okay.
- [16:20]
Malcolm Marquez
And that thing has gotten me through some moments.
- [16:24]
Brooke Devard
Wow. Wow. I pride myself on trying lots of different hairstyles, but a mullet is not one I've tried. What makes a mullet feel like a fashion moment? Right? Because it can not be. So what makes like a really good mullet, in your opinion?
- [16:39]
Malcolm Marquez
The first thing you need is conviction. You need to stand in that mullet, you know, because I think mullets. I'm glad you bring that up because mullets are a really important conversation, right? So it's like I literally have a mullet right now. I wish I was on camera so I could show you, but I have like, my hair is like a fade on top and like very curly and long in the back. It's. It's very strange, like. And I. I know that, but, you know, mullets do have this way of going trashy, for lack of a better term. But to me, it's about context, right? So a shaved head can be contextualized in one way and it can be in another way where it's just kind of what you put around it. You know, fashion leans on culture. Ultimately, it leans on culture and it leans on subculture. And haircuts, like mullets are. They're a subcultural thing that fashion is kind of picked up. And then you put that with a dress or a cool look and then it's fashion, you know, But. But it's that conviction that you decide that it's fashion, you know?
- [17:56]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Everything comes down to conviction. Like, you really have to sell it for other people to believe it. If you're. Yeah, you're not believing it, other people won't. We have to talk about the Chloe box braids, because when she popped out with those basically ankle length box braids, like, how long did it take for this wig to be made? It must have taken forever.
- [18:19]
Malcolm Marquez
So I had that wig made. It was made in Nigeria. And because we were in Paris, I actually could get it a lot quicker than if we were in la. The account that I got it from, they're called Neat Crowns. They do incredible braid wigs. And I've been waiting for an opportunity to work with them, but they actually had that wig already. I guess they had it made already, but they didn't have it up. And I had been in talks with them and they were like, hey, we have this really special wig that has not been shown online yet. And they sent me a video of it and I said immediately, yes. How quickly can we get that to Paris? Here's the address. Let's do it. So I have no idea how long that took to make, but it was human hair. It was gorgeous. I'm very grateful for them.
- [19:13]
Brooke Devard
I am on their Instagram now. The work that they're doing is incredible. I mean, braids take a million years, so the fact that they have these braided wigs is incredible. Do you know how many inches that was?
- [19:23]
Malcolm Marquez
It was 40. It was 40. Yeah.
- [19:27]
Brooke Devard
Wow. And all human hair, I know that was cost quite a bit, but.
- [19:31]
Malcolm Marquez
And, you know, braid wig technology has come farther than it was even five years ago. I mean, braids, they just look best off the scalp, and they're. They're hard to mimic on a wig. But I feel like lace technology has gotten better, and I think the techniques of braided wigs have gotten better that now there are some really good ones. And I think, you know, we. We couldn't have done that look. We couldn't have had that done, you know, the night before and then take it out.
- [20:07]
Brooke Devard
It looked so, so good. When you said the technology had gotten better, I thought you were saying that they had some innovation around the actual braid being done, like, if they're, you know, like, having only a matter of time.
- [20:19]
Malcolm Marquez
I know.
- [20:21]
Brooke Devard
So I'm very curious to hear who inspires you, whether it's other hairstylists, other artists in general. Like, where do you look to for inspiration?
- [20:31]
Malcolm Marquez
Okay, where do I begin? Well, let's talk about hairstylists that are inspiring me. Louis, I think, is his name. He's. Who does FKA Twigs love his work. One of my close friends who actually lives upstairs from me. His name is Fitch Lunar. He is an incredible hairstylist. He does Charlie xcx, but he's kind of like my hair sister. Like, we create a lot together. We inspire each other because we're neighbors. We actually just end up in the lab together all the time creating stuff. I think my community inspires me. I'm pretty immersed in my la, you know, queer community. I'm a part of nightlife, and I feel like that whole queer scene is, again, just kind of like, it's a beautiful place. I'm inspired by my friends who make music. I'm inspired by, like, just, you know, girls I meet out in the world. Like, I'm just. I'm inspired by just life, you know?
- [21:43]
Brooke Devard
No, I think your point about nightlife and la. Do you know the artist Keshe?
- [21:50]
Malcolm Marquez
Of course. Yes. I love her.
- [21:51]
Brooke Devard
And one of my favorite guests on the podcast. I mean, I'm a mom of two now. She'll invite me. She'll be like, there's a rave come through. I'm gonna.
- [21:59]
Malcolm Marquez
Yeah, that's where I am sometimes. And, you know, like, I know that that's not everybody's journey, but I think, like, my queer existence, like, really informs 100% of who I am from, like, how I personally present to the world, like, my opinions on things, how I think about things, and how I do the art that I do. Like, my art really is, like, an extension and a representation of me. And I think nightlife is one of those places that really embraced who I was from the beginning. You know, some of my biggest connections and first jobs that I worked in LA were through people that I met at some of these parties that I now have really close relationships with, where it's not. It's not. Not. It's not that, oh, that girl that you just call when you want to go out type of relationship. It's really building friendship in ways and in places that you may not expect to find them. And then you. You end up seeing those people when the sun is up, and you end up seeing those people when they have special life moments. And, you know, you grow and evolve together. But all of those people were the first people to ever support my work and to push my work. And I'm. I'm grateful to them for that, and I'm indebted to them for that, you know, that's incredible.
- [23:24]
Brooke Devard
I will end the interview with a question I ask all of my guests, which is, when do you feel most beautiful?
- [23:29]
Malcolm Marquez
Oh, I feel the most beautiful when I go back to Arizona. There's something really special for me about being able to reconnect with the land and the air and the plants and the creatures that I grew up around. That is so grounding to me. And it's not even about how I look in terms of the beauty, but it's like how beautiful and refreshed that makes me feel to be in that environment again.
- [24:03]
Brooke Devard
That's beautiful. And I hope to spend some time in Arizona myself.
- [24:07]
Malcolm Marquez
Yes. Go to the desert. It's an untapped. It's untapped territory. Yeah.
- [24:14]
Brooke Devard
The color palette alone. I need to go.
- [24:16]
Malcolm Marquez
Yeah. It's a beautiful place.
- [24:18]
Brooke Devard
Well, thank you so much, Malcolm. And I can't wait to see what you do at Met Gala. I won't ask you for any spoilers. I won't ask you for any. Anything.
- [24:25]
Malcolm Marquez
We're coming.
- [24:33]
Brooke Devard
I loved hearing from Malcolm, and now I feel inspired to leave my house after midnight and maybe go out and hit these LA streets. Let's also hear from Chelsea, who is joining us from London. Chelsea, welcome To Naked Beauty. I am so excited for this conversation.
- [24:49]
Dochi
Oh, my. Oh, my God.
- [24:52]
Brooke Devard
You know, I made that reel talking about Dochi's incredible Paris Fashion Week looks. And then we started DMing, and I was like, I really want to interview you for the podcast. And you were like, I listen to Naked Beauty.
- [25:01]
Dochi
And I was like, listen to Naked Beauty. In fact, I was like, let me just, like, refresh my brain. I went and rewatched Tina's one. I rewatched the one with Law, and I was like, like the fact that you even want to speak to me, I'm like, yes, please.
- [25:14]
Brooke Devard
Thank. You are iconic. And the Naked Beauty listenership is also iconic. Your makeup work is so incredible. Just on yourself as a beauty creator, I want to hear about how you started your career in makeup, where this passion for makeup came from.
- [25:31]
Dochi
I started really young as a kid. I've always been very artsy. I was always kind of drawing and sketching. But then when I started to figure out, like, what make was, I was around me, 11, 12, and I would watch my mom do her makeup, and I was so intrigued by her routine. I was like, what are you doing? Like, there's an eyeliner situation, and she's got lip situation. So I think that's how my curiosity began. And then I would start kind of doing makeup on myself a little bit. So I'll steal whatever she was using, and I try to recreate it myself. And I just started to get a little bit more obsessed and a little bit more kind of just interested. And then I think around, like, when I was 13, I post this all the time, so I'd always post this on my Snapchat and my Instagram, and I just post all my little. Little, like, mini looks. And then I remember somebody had DM me. She was like, can you do this on me? And I was like, 13. And I was like, oh, my God. Well, yes, I would love to. And then after that, that's when, like, the obsession really just.
- [26:24]
Brooke Devard
That's so interesting. So you were doing it on yourself, and then someone from your audience, from your community basically said, I will pay you to do this on me. One of the things that I feel like is very signature to your work is working with the eye space and eyelids and kind of like going beyond the eye. I also love your very kind of thin eyebrows. They remind me of kind of like 1920s. Yes.
- [26:47]
Dochi
I live.
- [26:48]
Brooke Devard
Yes. So good. What do you like about the eye area in particular as a canvas?
- [26:54]
Dochi
I think just in general, I love eyes. I think I just Think they're so beautiful. And so if I can just like, create or enhance or just really just amplify someone's eyes, that's like, my biggest thing. So, like, eyes and, like, lips are, like, my favorite thing when it comes to glam. I think that's just the first thing I kind of wanted to master. Like, one of the first things I learned how to deal myself was eyeliner. And then since then, I was like, I just want to learn how to make my eyes look insane. So, yeah, I just love eyes. There's no, like, specific reason. It's just kind of like, it just survived to me so far the window.
- [27:26]
Brooke Devard
To the soul not to. I want to hear how you started working with Dochi and then just what it's like to work with someone who is also such a creative and also has such vision. Because, you know, I'm sure you get girls that sit down in your makeup chair and they're like, oh, what do you want? Soft, glam? Like, yeah, well, natural be. So it must be really refreshing to work with someone like Dochi. But how did that come about and what is it like working with her?
- [27:51]
Dochi
It's honestly amazing. I've been following her for a really long time, and I've been following her journey for a while, and I remember she had followed me back on Instagram in, like, 2023, and I was gagged. I was like, oh, my God. Wait, what? And we finally got the chance to work together for Milan Fashion Week in Paris. But it's honestly so cool. She's like just a cool chameleon. Like, just somebody that's able to just be able to embody each and every look. And it never feels like it's too much. It never feels like the clothes are wearing her, like the glam is wearing her. It just she becomes the look. Like, working with somebody that's like, that versatile is so fun. It's so, so, so fun. And it just kind of pushes your creativity as well, because she's so creative and she's ready to just kind of do anything. So it kind of just pushes you as an artist as well. So that's obviously so refreshing.
- [28:43]
Brooke Devard
Yes. And, you know, one of the things I'm getting listening to you is the power of putting your artwork on social media, like, putting yourself out there for people to consume, because you didn't know that Dochi was going to follow you. You didn't know at 13 that that girl was going to follow you.
- [28:56]
Dochi
Yes.
- [28:58]
Brooke Devard
Like, you never know who's watching, and you have to Put your work out there.
- [29:02]
Dochi
That's my biggest thing. Like, anytime anybody asks me, I don't know why people even ask me for advice, but like, when it comes to like social media, I just treat it like your own personal catalog. Just make it look super, super pretty and just post the things that you love and share it because you actually genuinely don't know who's watching. Like everybody is at this point. I'm chronically online, so you don't know who's gonna pop onto your feed or pop onto your page. And so yeah, I always say post everything and just keep posting again. You might just get like a cool opportunity from social media. So yeah, I'm very big on just posting your work for sure.
- [29:38]
Brooke Devard
One of the things that's been really prevalent in all of the praise for Dochi and her beauty looks is how nice it is to see a dark skinned woman in the limelight, in the spotlight, looking so beautiful. And you are the mastermind behind this perfect, flawless beat. So I want to hear what, what are the tricks and tips to getting the base right for a darker skinned girl?
- [30:02]
Dochi
Well, one thing I'll always preface when it comes to just makeup in general is skin prep. I think that's so skincare is so important to see like with how your makeup is even going to look. So that's one thing I always make sure is important. But when it comes to my dark skin girlies, it's just about the layering. It's about the layering, it's the ratio with, you know, your creams to your powders because. And then also the tones that you're using because sometimes things complain a little bit gray if you're not careful. So definitely the tones, how you layer things. And yeah, and also with dark skinned girlies, like we, I'm a full, grow, full glam girl to my form. So as much as I love the clean girl kind of thing, sometimes with us you just need that little bit more. Like you need a little bit more of that coverage because we can just take it, it will look fine. So that's something I always advise to like, just don't be afraid to kind of go in there with the, with the products.
- [30:57]
Brooke Devard
Yes. That is something that when we had Jackie Aina on the podcast, she was like, you need to like go in and do layers and layers of makeup.
- [31:05]
Dochi
You do. Like, I think when it comes to fashion and it comes to editorial, like we've heard so many like horror stories of like models and complaining that, you know, there's people that they're just not well versed when it comes to like dark skinned glam. And I think it's because people are applying their techniques that they usually do on lighter skinned girlies or white people to dark skinned people and it's just not the same. We just need that little bit more. We need that technique, we need that layering, we need the tone tones to be right. But yeah, that's very important.
- [31:32]
Brooke Devard
So I need to get specifics from you. I want to hear what you use for skin prep and then I want to hear if you use a color corrector, which color corrector you use and then what concealer and foundations you really love.
- [31:43]
Dochi
All right, so first skin prep, I always start off with just micellar water and just cleanse the face down. And then I just went in with two toners. So I use the fresh oil infused toner. It's like in this beautiful glass pink ball. Like, I love that stuff. And I used also the Charlotte Tilbury glow toner. I think that's such a pretty toner. I also went in with a serum that was from Kiehl's. Now I can't remember the exact name, but it's like in this tall white bottle and I use like two layers of that and I just let that really sink in and I gave her a nice little massage. And then I went in this moisturizer also from Kiehl's. Their all day. Is it all day moisturizer or something like that? And then primers. I use Danessa Myricks. So I went in with the universal blurring balm and then the water powder serum to. You lock it in.
- [32:32]
Brooke Devard
And yeah, that water powder serum is such a unique formula. Like when I tried it, I was like, what is this witchcraft? I know.
- [32:42]
Dochi
Like, I don't know what she's cooking up in that lab, but she's cooking. She's cooking for sure. But oh, also eye cream. I forgot to even mention eye cream as well. And what I'll do is with eye cream is I use the Kiehl's avocado one as well. But I put a layer and kind of massage it and then I'll put another layer and then an eye mask on top to kind of just sandwich in that product. And I'll let that sit for a cool minute and then just lip balm from Fenty. That's the. That's the skin prep.
- [33:10]
Brooke Devard
That's like an extensive skin prep. But I feel like her skin glows through the makeup. Like you can see this luminosity in her skin, it's. It doesn't while being covered. So that's all of the gorgeous skin prep.
- [33:21]
Dochi
And this is improv. Yeah. And then it just looks fresh. You know, in real life, it's just like that fresh kind of of the beat. Even though it's, like, full coverage down, but it still looks a little bit lived in. Just that tiny bit. And then also, when it comes to, like, products, I actually don't think I even color corrected that her skin is beautiful. Honestly, I don't think I color corrected. I just went in with the Nessa Meyer exploring balm, and I used the shade 9.5, and that's a tiny bit warmer than her. So I guess you would consider that color correcting. But I like to go in with that first just because it, like, makes her makeup last, like, all day. I don't know what it is, what formula she's using, but. But it literally makes your makeup last. And then I went in with a little bit of Lancome's Tiny Doll mixed with the YSL All Night All Nighter foundation or something like that. I can't remember the exact name, but those two. A serious combo. Serious combo. And her concealer placement and concealers and stuff like that, I used Pat McGrath.
- [34:17]
Brooke Devard
Okay. It looked so beautiful, and I feel like I noticed you. You do this beautiful technique with concealer placement where it kind of, like, lifts the entire face.
- [34:25]
Dochi
So. So what I'll do is I'll kind of contour her eyes first. So I'll use a cream contour, and that's darker than her, and I'll kind of apply some here, like, on the edge of her eye. And then I'll kind of blend it into her temple and forehead. So you have this kind of shadow right here that's automatically already lifting her. And then with a brighter concealer, I'll kind of go here. And then when I'm blending, I, like, pull it all the way up here. And then with her blush and cheek contour, I'm, like, keeping it very much at this angle just to snatch her back. And then same goes with powders again. When I'm setting it in place, I'm just, like, applying the darker shades up here and then the lightness right here. So it kind of gives you the effects of being pulled and snatched. But yeah. And then also lashes played a big part when it, like, lifting the eyes and, like, pulling that, giving you that facelift kind of vibe. So, like, with lashes, I'll kind of apply a little bit more. I learned this from Drag queens actually apply a little bit more glue right at the end of her eye and then kind of stick the lash onto her actual skin instead of the lash line. So I'll stick it a tiny bit like further up and then it kind of flutters out and makes you look cold.
- [35:41]
Brooke Devard
My mind is blown from that tip. Like also shout out to drag queens.
- [35:45]
Dochi
They taught me a lot of. When it comes because I'm such a full on girly drag queens, my trans girly, they taught me everything that I need to know because. And all the techniques and all the products as well. Especially when it comes to stage glam. Because again, drag queens, they've got like layers and layers of makeup on, but it never, ever looks out of place. Everything is inputs and they're doing splits and they're dancing and they're lip syncing. So a lot of the products they use for stage glam is things that I've. I have in my kit as well for some of my clients because they perform and they get sweaty and this kind of thing. So, yeah, they taught me so much because. Especially because I'm self taught. So I'd just be like YouTube and things like that. I would be watching all of the videos because they know the mo. They know everything. They know everything. Honestly, you really do.
- [36:28]
Brooke Devard
You talked about loving lips. I love, I love the way your lips look right now. I love Giaparelli. I loved her lip at Louis Vuitton. It's a classic black girl glam.
- [36:39]
Dochi
So I love a lip liner that's like dark and brown, like a good brown. And I. The one pencil that I used a lot on her was the makeup by Mario Lip lip pencil. And it's in the shade. Jeff that a staple. And then I just go with any type of pinky kind of gloss. I remember I used for the Schiaparelli one. I remember I used Vanessa Mark. She has like this lip palette and there's just like one shade that was just like pink and perfect. And I applied that on her lip. And then the Mac Clear lip gloss, that is like my favorite product that just makes your lips look 3D. Like the shine that you get from that is like no other. And that will just seal and solidify the whole lip combo. And it's just like, like it's gonna last as well because that lip gloss is so thick that your lips just look so juicy for so long. So that's, that's the, that's the combo, that's the tea.
- [37:29]
Brooke Devard
Amazing. And do you put the liner on directly on the lip, or do you feather it at all? Because sometimes I've. I'm getting my makeup done, and I'm like, why does this lip liner look so much better than when I do it at home?
- [37:41]
Dochi
Yeah, I do a whole little ombre situation. So I'll line the lips normally, and then I'll kind of overline just. Just from. Not the cupid's bow. Just. I kind of go from here to here. So, like, nostril to nostril, I kind of go from there, and that kind of gives you that little extra pump. So I'll overline this part, and then I'll just take a tiny little brush or I'll take my finger, and I'll kind of just like, blend in the lip liner so it doesn't look too. Too harsh. Because when it sets, you don't want it to set harsh. And then that's when I'll kind of take another brush. Another brush, and I'll just go in with that main, you know, center of the lip product, and I'll kind of just feather in and tap it, tap it, top it. And when I'm tapping the product, I'm kind of just like, feathering it up, so I'm, like, topping, tapping, tapping. And then I'll kind of just push it up a little bit. And then before you even put gloss, lips already look juicy because of how you've overlined and how you've applied the lip. And then when you put the clear gloss, I just use a flat brush, and I use a lot of clear gloss. Actually. I don't. I don't play. I go to put a lot of clear gloss and a flat brush, and I'll kind of just tap it first and then kind of help kind of blend it. And then to make sure it's extra blended, I'll go back in with my lip liner and then kind of just really solidify that outside line.
- [38:53]
Brooke Devard
Wow. See, this is. This is. This is the level of detail we need to hear, because you'll go out, you'll buy the exact lip liner, the exact max, but on the combination, you're like, why does this not look the same? But it's all in the technique and the way you blend everything and the layers and the brushes.
- [39:08]
Dochi
Yeah, it's like a whole routine, literally.
- [39:11]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Now, the look for Tom Ford, which was this incredible kind of mullet haircut and this incredible black, just, like, dark, midnight, smoky eye. When she stepped out, I immediately thought of Grace Jones. I have so many Grace Jones images on my mood board. How did you achieve this perfect dark, smoky eye?
- [39:29]
Dochi
I feel like the long cigarette did give Grace Jones, but, like, literally, we were. We just figured out what she was going to wear, like, in the car. Cause we were actually. That whole look, we. She went from the Acme Studios outfit, and that was like the punky kind of 90s girl, like, plaid dress, pigtail situation. And she had this green eyeshadow on. So we had to change that whole look into the Tom Ford look in, like, 20 minutes in the back of the car. So it was just. We just needed to cover the green. So it was giving. Once we figured out what she was wearing, which was like the black kind of feather bodysuit belt situation, it was like, okay, just black smokey eye. So I used the pencil a little bit, and then mainly just black eyeshadow. And I. I just. I was not blatant. I used loads. And she was like, I hope it's not falling. I was like, don't worry, it's fine.
- [40:14]
Brooke Devard
Because, you know, I was just like.
- [40:16]
Dochi
I need to cover this green somehow. And usually what I would do is just go in with, like, Janessa Myricks. She has these little, like, color fix. So I was like. My plan was just to go on top with, like, a black paint, and it would have been, like, easily done. But, yeah, it was testing a little bit difficult just because we were in a moving car, but we still got it done. And it was fab. It was really, really fab. But it's so funny because when she stepped out and, like, really just immediately went into character with a long cigarette, and that kind of. It's just like, no one knows what just happened in the back of the screen.
- [40:44]
Brooke Devard
The chaos of Malcolm's flat, ironing her hair in the car. You're like black shadow. And then you just see her emerge from the car. All of these flashing lights, and she just looks calm, cool and collected.
- [40:56]
Dochi
Yeah, it was like a movie, honestly. And you know what's so funny? It's like. Cause she was Sam, her stylist, and Justina, his assistant were dressing her. Like, the main thing was just getting the clothes on first and then kind of switching the hair. And then Malcolm was, like, undoing her braids. So, like, I was just kind of there looking. I was like, there's no way I'm about to come in here and I'll start poking your eye with some eyeshadow. So I was like, wait till the last, like, five, ten minutes before we pull up to the show. And that's when I'll kind of change the glam. And, yeah, we just added some clear gloss onto the lip. A little bit more black eyeliner on the lip liner. Some dior. They have this, like, quad eyeshadow highlight quad. I just use a bunch of that on the brow bone. So hopefully, like, if it's not blended to perfection, brow bone highlight might just distract you a little bit. That was a cheer, but so cool. It ended up being one of my favorite looks, which is funny.
- [41:48]
Brooke Devard
Yes. It was so beautiful, and I want to hear what inspires you. Like, what do you look to for inspiration for makeup looks?
- [41:57]
Dochi
I think mainly color. I love just color combinations, and we can find color combinations anywhere. Like, I have random pictures in my cameras of just, like, this old lady's bag. The bag. The colors were cute. Or I'll have screenshots of, like, flowers and just random things, I think just color for sure. Because I feel like once when I'm thinking of a look, especially if I'm doing my own makeup, it's literally just what colors am I going to use? What palettes, what textures am I doing shimmers? Am I doing mattes? Am I doing graphic liner? Like, I just need to figure out the color combination, and then from there, I can just, like, do whatever I want. So 100% color and also, like music as well. I think when I'm listening to certain songs, I'm like, I see a whole vision just listening to this. And so, yeah, I think colors and music are like my main go tos when it comes to coming up with the new looks.
- [42:45]
Brooke Devard
Do you listen to music during the glam sessions? Like, is it, like, a fun party vibe, or is it, like, serious? You need to focus.
- [42:53]
Dochi
No, she has her playlist on. There's music. There's always some type of music playing in the background, for sure. Sometimes. Well, obviously in the car, there wasn't really. It was focused. It was pure. We need to lock in. But, like, when we're kind of sitting down and going glam, she'll have our playlist on. It's very. It's very chill.
- [43:09]
Brooke Devard
I love that. And you are joining us from the UK I feel like London girls have such a specific approach to beauty that's different than what we see in the U.S. yeah. And what's your family's background?
- [43:23]
Dochi
I'm Nigerian.
- [43:24]
Brooke Devard
Nigerian, okay. Because there are lots of just gorgeous nadja babes in London. I'd also love to hear how that background has influenced your approach to makeup and beauty.
- [43:36]
Dochi
I feel like, I think definitely the full glam of it all. Like the London girls, like the UK girls, they don't play with the program. Like the under eyes are smooth and flawless. Even in real life, I'm just like, what, what are you doing? How is it so smooth? And then the blush and the lip combos, I think that's one thing that, those, those three things, you have to give it to the London girls because they eat it up. The base, the lips, it's always fire. It's always, always fire.
- [44:04]
Brooke Devard
It's always so good. I would love to see us move more in this direction of self expression with makeup. Trying new things, giving a look, having the courage to go for a moment. It's not about looking pretty and like ticking the boxes.
- [44:19]
Dochi
Yeah.
- [44:20]
Brooke Devard
I don't know, communicating something with your.
- [44:22]
Dochi
Look that's so big to me because like on my social media I'll just be like, especially for like my dark skinned girls. Like I just want us to experiment and, and do everything that we can because I feel like for so long like people have just kind of told us to just strip things back and keep it simple and you know, just easy. But I'm like, you can do whatever you want to do. Like just don't be afraid to try new things. Like that's my biggest thing. Like always try new things. You never know if you might like it. And yeah, I always, I always want to push the glam and push, push, you know, your creativity and just try it. Because especially with color. Especially because again, like I said before, I love color. So yeah, when it comes to eyes, lips, I'm just like, do whatever, just try it. Just honestly try it. Because you just feel so badass. Honestly, like if you, if I see somebody out and they have this like blue eye, I'm like, she's taking it like those kind of things. I'm just like, you just have to appreciate and so I always push my girls to try something other than soft glam.
- [45:20]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Something other than soft glam. We will all be following you. I will drop your Instagram in the show notes because I just feel like, like you as a, independent of your work on clients, like you as a beauty creator. I'm just so obsessed with everything that you do. It's been so great chatting with you. I've learned a lot.
- [45:40]
Dochi
Oh my God, this is so great chatting with you. And again, congrats on everything. I see you guys got an award at the iheart. Yes, congratulations. Well, well deserved. So honestly, it's been a pleasure speaking with you.
- [45:52]
Brooke Devard
Thank you so much, Chelsea.
- [45:54]
Dochi
Thank you.
- [46:03]
Brooke Devard
Chelsea is not just a phenomenal makeup artist. You can tell when she talks. She's truly an artist. I hope you all are inspired by today's conversation. I know I certainly am. I'm going to spend even more time planning my looks for big moments. I think it's fun. I think it's about self expression. I think it's about creating a moment. And the final thing I want to say is it's something that all of us can tap into. We can all be the creative directors of our own looks. Thank you all so much for listening. Be back next week with a new episode.
- [46:49]
Chelsea Ochena
I'm Jen. And I'm Jess. And we're the hosts of the beauty podcast Fat Mascara. We fell in love with the brand Violette Fr after we had its founder, French makeup artist Violette Serrat, on our show. I need a minimalist but effective skincare routine, so I love Violette fr's Boom Boom Milk. It's a multi purpose rebalancing spray that protects your skin's natural microbiome and improves overall skin health. The main ingredient, fermented birch SAP, is a miracle worker. Use it alone or as your first step. You can also sandwich it between your active topicals. A French secret for less reactive skin visit vir.com to discover boomba Milk, a French skincare essential that will bring your skin to its healthiest state.