Loading summary
Transcript190 lines
- [00:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [00:02]
B
They want to know.
- [00:06]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [00:07]
B
Come on, come on.
- [00:08]
A
Hello, hello, this is Brooke Devard, and you're listening to the Naked Beauty podcast and I am recording this intro after my conversation with Hope Giselle. And she just fills me with so much fire, so much energy, so much passion, because she is someone that one not only loves beauty, but she is so committed to her activism, to her community, to making trans women more visible. And the reason I wanted to have this conversation is because I feel like there needs to be so much more sisterhood with our trans sisters, our trans brothers and sisters. But in the case of Hope Giselle, our trans sisters, I think there's a lot that's still very misunderstood. And she just has such an incredible point of view. And we get into it something. We talk around a lot here on Naked Beauty, but all of the things that the trans community has given the beauty world. So this is a very interesting, important, great episode, great listen. Thank you, Hope, for bringing your full self to this episode of Naked Beauty. I want to tell you all a little bit about Hope Giselle's incredible background. Hope began her advocacy work fighting for inclusion and access for herself as an undergraduate at Alabama A and M University. She founded the university's first LGBTQ organization and later became the first openly trans woman to earn a Master of Fine Arts from the university. She has since built a decade long career as an activist, author, speaker, and nonprofit founder. Her nonprofits, Allow Me. Hope has proven that nothing is off limits to her, and she has committed her life's work to ensuring the same for all others. Hope is fighting against marginalization and she looks so good while she's doing it. You all, please make sure that you stay tuned for these beauty tips because you guys know I hear beauty tips from everyone. Hope hit me with some new things that I wasn't even aware of yet. So let's get into today's conversation. Hope, welcome to Naked Beauty. I am so excited to have you on.
- [02:02]
B
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
- [02:05]
A
Not only are you stunningly beautiful and gorgeous, our good friend Sir John texted me and said, yo, Hope, you know how Sir John gets when he's excited about someone and he doesn't often. He doesn't often. Like, he's very, you know, he's not a very. Yeah, he's very selective. He's definitely. He's also like, not pushy. So he was like, no, no, no, you have to check her out. And then I just went down like this deep Rabbit hole of like your podcast, your YouTube. And I was like, I cannot wait to chat with Hope. So thank you, sir John, for connecting us. Also, the skin on 100 the is it. Are these miracle knots? I'm obsessed with miracle knots.
- [02:40]
B
Are these miracle knots attached to my locks?
- [02:43]
A
To your locks? Yes. Miracle knots were the unlock that we needed. As someone who loves to wear braids, I don't think I'll ever go back to knot miracle knots.
- [02:54]
B
I need like, because also I can just get regular braids and put my own miracle knots in at home. I am when I say that was the best, worst thing that they could have done for us and horrible thing for hairstylists because now I'm no more paying $500 for Bohos. I can't do it anymore.
- [03:08]
A
Right. But also how much faster it is.
- [03:12]
B
So much. I can. I did this in maybe like an hour. It took me like an hour just to add the pieces. And also I get to control where they and like where I want them to be in my hair. And it's so much less hassle of arguing with like stylists.
- [03:26]
A
I know I'm not doing them myself quite yet, but maybe one day. I want to go back to the beginning. I want to go back to growing up in Miami. Take us back. What were you like as a kid?
- [03:39]
B
I was the same person. I think that my personality has always been big and boisterous and say the thing and speak out and whatever God given gifts I was born with. Like, I'm gonna let everybody know I'm a Leo. And so it's always been my world. And y' all are living.
- [03:56]
A
So am I. Wait, what's your birthday?
- [03:58]
B
August 2nd.
- [03:59]
A
I'm August 3rd. Okay. We really are sisters. That is.
- [04:03]
B
Oh yeah, Most definitely. That is so okay. I love this energy already. That's okay. This makes sense. But yeah, I'm a Leo. So the world revolves around us and everybody else just lives in it, you know? And so I think I've always just been art and artistry and creativity has always just been a huge part of my life. My grandmother was a huge supporter of, you know, once she saw me dancing, she was like, put him in ballet. Do you know, do this. Let's do gymnastics. My mom was the one. Cause she was a younger mom and you know, we grew up in the 90s in Miami in the project. So you could imagine the mentality that my mom had at the time. And, you know, she really fought tooth and nail. But my grandmother was my biggest advocate. She was just like no, I'm gonna sign him up and then you're not gonna have a. You know. So it was always just a really a good time wherever I was. And I made sure I brought it where I was.
- [04:52]
A
Yes. And your family's Cuban and Haitian.
- [04:55]
B
Yeah.
- [04:57]
A
What did that kind of background teach you about beauty and self presentation and gender performance as well? Because gender performance is also a learned thing. You know what I mean? Like, you learn from your family members what it means to show up as a woman.
- [05:13]
B
Absolutely, there is. So we also have Bahamian roots. I just don't talk about it as much because I literally, the only person that is still in the lineage that's alive is my grandfather. But overall, there are Caribbean women throughout my entire family. So you can only imagine if you've ever met a Caribbean woman who is like, you know, we live in it. Everything is colorful and bold and everything tells a story, and the fabrics and the textures and everything means something. And when we talk about presentation, my mama was the first woman that I would say she was Mrs. Put that shit on before. Put that shit on was a phrase, right?
- [05:52]
A
Yes.
- [05:52]
B
And she just had so many fits. There's one fit that like, I bring it up to her all the time and she hates that I bring it up, but it was my favorite thing as a kid. And it was this army fatih outfit that she would wear. And it was like the boots were like a knee high boot. I don't know where she got them from in the 90s, but she did. And they were like a knee high boot with the classic military. But my mom is curvy, so like, she would tuck them into the boot and it would be. And then it was a crop top, dickey camo moment. And she just was. She was fly. Like, my mama was just fly. My grandmother was fly and had all of these beautiful colored little dresses that she would wear. And her red lipstick from fashion fair that she. We had to bury her with that lipstick, you know, so presentation was a huge part of my life growing up and watching the women that I surrounded myself with fashion and beauty. We were that. That was our family.
- [06:44]
A
Yes. And I love the confidence that you like in a lot of Caribbean culture. This idea of just like loving yourself, feeling confident, like that really comes across. And I think, you know, I always say that Rihanna's one of the most beautiful women in the world. Yes. The physical, like, of course. But it's her. It's the way she carries herself that just makes her just such a gorgeous woman.
- [07:07]
B
There's. I think that there's an unapologetic beauty to understanding who you are as a black woman without the colonial eye to also guide that process. And I think that there are so many Caribbean women, especially darker skinned Caribbean women, who we've had the privilege of having the conversations around our ancestral lineage and the way that as women, we've been broken down, broken down by the system, the patriarchy, the men, the like, all of the things that happened before we were even around to understand them. And I think the Caribbean women divested from wanting to be this palatable version of femininity, when femininity was never built to serve us. It was built to keep us in a cage so that we as black women stopped wearing our adornments and putting rouge on our cheeks. And, you know, when they told us we couldn't wear our hair out, we started to wear head wraps. And even those were elaborate. I believe that there's just something beautiful about the way that Caribbean women specifically just find new ways to divest from the male gaze as it pertains to what makes us beautiful. If a man finds it alluring, awesome. But that is not the goal here.
- [08:16]
A
Absolutely, absolutely. Growing up, when did you feel like you were able to tap into the truest version of yourself? When did you feel like who you felt like on the inside was manifested externally?
- [08:29]
B
There were different stages. I believe that when I was coming up because a lot of people, you know, they assume that, like, I was trying to be trans from the time that I understood what trans was. I did not find out what transness was until I was 19. And so when I take it from the top of life, I was always comfortable as this queer kid because I found out very early what it meant to be a sissy. That was my introduction into who I was. Someone told me that I was a sissy. I asked them to explain what that meant. And in a very five year old way, they said that, you know, my mommy said that it's a boy who likes boys. And I was like, well, well, I like boys, so I guess I'm a sissy, right? And then I talked to my teacher, Ms. Sotolongo, who was another Cuban woman, but she was more phenotypically like what people assume Cuban people look like, but she was just gorgeous Cuban woman. And I was like, Ms. Sotalongo, I'm a sissy. And she's like, wait, hold up, pause, back it up. Like, that's not. Wait, what's happening here? And even though, you know, that was an insult that I wasn't understanding correctly at that age. I think I made peace with it because for me, as long as the definition still, as long as the definition matched what I understood of myself, I was okay with it. And then moving past that and getting to college and finding out who Janet Mock was was my real awakening to my transness. I think I had. I fought against it. Me and transness had a very pernicious relationship at the top of me figuring out who I was, because I thought that I knew I was Grace Jones, I was Sylvester. I was all of these androgynous figures in history, but I never once thought myself to be a woman. And I stumbled across this gorgeous woman with this head full of curls, and she's so eloquent and well read and just vibrant, and everything about her was just. I was drawn. I have no idea why.
- [10:22]
A
She's very Janet Mock, just for people listening, because I've had the privilege of meeting her in person. There's something so magnetic about her in person. Like, you can be in a crowded room, and she's small, but she just draws energy in this kind of incredible way. So you saw Janet, and you were
- [10:42]
B
like, who are you?
- [10:44]
A
Who are you? And what can I learn? Yes. And what. And what did she. What did she say about. Or what. Yeah, what about the trans experience that she spoke about spoke to you where it clicked?
- [10:56]
B
So I had gotten through five videos where she had talked about transness at all. And on the fifth video, she was. I'm assuming it was like a pride event that she was at. And so she was there to talk about transness. And I was like, oh, wait, what? And so I had to look up the word transgender. And then I go back, and I do the thing that most CIS people do ignorantly, and I'm like, what?
- [11:16]
A
What?
- [11:16]
B
What? What excuse? And then. Then everything made sense. I don't even think that it was a particular thing that she said. It wasn't like, this wasn't one of those moments where she was galvanizing the people around transes. It was just something that she casually mentioned in a speech. And I was like, explain this to me. And once I did my research, I fell down the rabbit hole. And by the end of that day, I was throwing away anything that felt masculine and could not be repurposed for something feminine out of my dorm room. It was a really quick turnaround for me.
- [11:49]
A
And what was it that. What were you saying to yourself? Were you like, I've always felt like maybe a more effeminate man, but actually, what I Feel like, as a woman, like, how did it, I guess, coalesce for you in your mind?
- [12:02]
B
You know what? There was a part of me because it was never that. I always felt like an effeminate man. And I was okay with that until I wasn't, you know, And I think that that's the thing. We are not monoliths in that way. Some of us, you know, we do have that experience. But I think also, I didn't know that it was an option. You know, I tell people all the time. My mom. One of my most pivotal moments with my mom around my sexuality and transness happened after I got a beating for not speaking to a boyfriend of hers. And then we found out later that it wasn't because I didn't speak to him. It was because I was visibly queer in front of his friends. But my mom asked me a series of questions that day, and one of the questions was like, do you want to be a girl? And that for me, I was like, this doesn't make sense. How can I be a girl? Like, I'm a boy. Like, this doesn't make sense. And I remember my mom saying to me that if you ever come home as anything other than my son, I don't know you, and I'm not coming to the funeral. And that was a heavy moment for me. And so transness, even if I saw inklings of it or examples of it throughout life Until I was 19, the fear was that I would lose my best friend, which was my mom, if I ever did, or even if I. Even if I thought about it, I thought that, like, she would know in her dreams, and then she would just not be my mom anymore. And so I was perfectly fine being who I was until I wasn't fine anymore. That day that I discovered Janet Mock was the first day that I discovered transness. And it was also the day that I realized that that was where my comfort was. It wasn't in the androgyny. It wasn't in the gender bending of it all. It was in the fact that I had been told or I had been made to feel like this was a thing that I should fear about myself rather than something I should explore. And not having that restraint anymore because I was no longer in the house just gave me this, like, weight that was lifted. And because I didn't have to run it by anybody, it was a quick process for me because I had already been tormented and ridiculed and jumped and beaten up. And so what's one more reason to beat me up? Who cares?
- [14:05]
A
Yes. And at that point, you're at Alabama State and hbcu. I know you became the first openly trans woman to graduate, graduate there with an MFA. But being there, being 19, 20 now firmly in your trans identity, what were those early years of experimentation and kind of stepping into your new identity?
- [14:23]
B
Like, girl, it was. It was fight options. That's where my advocacy started. They didn't know what really what to do with me as a gay boy, because unlike the rest of the gay boys on campus that were just, you know, a little effeminate, you know, they might have twirled every now and then around campus, but I was the one that came in. And it's so funny because I'm sitting here looking at myself now, and I'm just like, this is kind of what I look like. But it was a rough cut back then, you know, and I was just like this little Twinkie boy in the booty shorts and the crop top with the braids. And, you know, I had all of these extra pieces that were. I guess other people saw me before I saw myself, right? And they didn't know what to do with me. And so I had to advocate from my freshman year to the time that I graduated, I had to advocate to have safe dorm housing. I had to advocate to make sure that. That I wasn't allowed to be beat up on for no reason. I had to advocate to even get my degree put in my legal name because I fought to get my name changed before graduation so that I would not have to look at that as a stain on my history. Looking back at one of the most, like, pivotal moments of my life. And so I spent a lot less time thinking about the aesthetics of it all and a lot more time figuring out how to decipher Title IX so that it would work in my favor when I went to the academic affairs office to plead my case for a better dorm or to plead my case to be in the girls dorm room, whatever the case may be. I did not really start to think about aesthetic until after I graduated. And I was in the real world working at Mac, and aesthetic became a thing because now I was working with other cis women. And being the big 5 foot 10 girl in the store of all these 5 foot 4, 5 foot sevens makes me stick out. And so if I'm going to stick out, I can't be clockable. And that was when I started to pay attention to the aesthetics of things a little bit more.
- [16:08]
A
Yes, I want to talk about our. The way women and the relationship that Women have to some of these discussions. So you had a conversation with Dr. Umar, which you are so brave for going on that platform, because Dr. Umar is many things, and one of them is a troll. Right? There's, like, just. There's a lot of baiting that happens on that platform. But you were very brave, and you showed up beautifully. I want to focus specifically on the way so. So many women in the comments section were agreeing with you, nodding along, yes, sister, speak on it, until they found out you were trans. And then suddenly it was like, you're the enemy. You're not really a woman. And this is something that I feel so passionately about my audience here at Naked Beauty Understanding, because I think we often. We understand that Cishet men are just so egregiously behind. We know about, you know, the violence that they perpetuate against trans women, but there is violence, emotional violence, intellectual violence, Just not making a safe space for our trans sisters. That happens amongst women, and it's kind of unacceptable. I'd love to hear from you why you think so many women are threatened by, bothered by, and don't feel in community with our trans sisters.
- [17:26]
B
You know, this is difficult even, because that framing, even though I didn't say that there's gonna be someone that's gonna hear the framing of that question and, oh, I'm not bothered by you.
- [17:37]
A
You're right. So let me speak for myself. I have observed firsthand that. That CIS women just going about their daily life, for some reason feel bothered and threatened by trans women. And I would love to unpack with you why that is.
- [17:56]
B
You know what? There's a. There's nuance. And I think that for different women and for different types of women, that answer is gonna be. It'll have different responses. I like to stay in the black lane because that's who I fellowship with the most. I'm a black woman who deals with black women predominantly. And while every woman is safe in my space, I speak from my experience. Right?
- [18:17]
A
Yes, let's do that. We're gonna put J.K. rowling to the side for a moment.
- [18:21]
B
For just a moment. We're coming back to you. But for just a second, I think that as black women, there's so much space that is asked of CIS Black women in this particular instance, for the sake of this question, you're expected to give space to your children, your husband, your father, your mom, your aunt, your uncle, the weird guy at work that nobody likes, but you have to acquiesce to him because not only are you a woman, but you're a black woman, so how dare you have a problem with any of the things that he does? Everyone expects grace and time and extensions of themselves. Even if it's like the last little bit of gas that you have in the tank, somebody wants a quarter of the bit that you have left as a black woman. And I think that we would be remiss as trans women to not acknowledge that, especially if you are a trans woman that is black. Because if you are a trans woman that is black and you have the privilege of passing, and even if you don't have the privilege of passing, sometimes it's just the expectation that your femininity has to show up in a way that is subservient to everyone around you. And so if I'm a CIS black woman and I have been screaming to the top of my lungs about how I need this and I need health care, and I need you all to pay attention to what is going on with the HIV rates for black women and the mortality rate and the NICU for black women, and all of that is being overlooked. But then Laverne gets on Orange is the New Black, and now all of a sudden, I'm expected to give a shit about all you trans girls. I don't have an issue with trans people, but I need something like, can we. Can we have a conversation about all of these other things as well?
- [19:56]
A
I understand it, but there's some intellectual dishonesty in that argument because all of those struggles are linked together. You can't talk about the black maternal health crisis without talking about what's happening with trans rights. They are quite literally all linked.
- [20:09]
B
But I think that the issue with it is that we're human beings, and so we can acknowledge that there's linkage. But I can also still acknowledge that it feels like, in some degree, to some women, it feels like there's a prioritization. And that prioritization didn't even come for women who were, I guess, gifted with this at birth. It is going to. And that privilege feels like it's going to these people who have now said, I'm going to accept that this is a part of my humanity and this is a part of who I am. But what about the fact that I couldn't choose to accept it? This is what I was born as, and thank God I love the body that I'm in, but I've been begging for these things that they are now giving you all just off the cuff. And so while I think that so many people want to Dismiss that part. And all of us are not emotionally balanced enough to say that those things are linked. And we're forgetting that not everybody is in a space where they have emotional maturity to hold. And I think that some of the hatred comes from the lack of emotional maturity to understand that a brick at you is a brick at me is a brick at her is a brick at her. And then also there's that other part. I was born. I'm supposed to have the ability to do the things. You are a man who decided that you were a woman at 19 years old. And you're gorgeous.
- [21:35]
A
I was gonna say because, Hope, let's. Let's also get into the beauty of it all. And the way that you probably gag a room when you walk in, and the face looks like that, the body looks like that. There's probably some jealousy in that as well.
- [21:45]
B
There is jealousy. There is jealousy. Especially because I think that I find the jealousy even more when the women in the room know who I am, but the men don't know who I am. And the men are doing the thing. They're gagged, and they're queen this, and oh, my God. And she's so. And I watch the looks of the women in the room oftentimes go from oh, my God, girl, yes. To y' all notice a man over there, right? Y' all all gagging about this man in the corner. And I think that some of it is also because there is a scarcity, or what some people believe is a scarcity on black men, but also, if we can call a thing a thing, it's not even about the scarcity of black men. It's about the fact that y' all don't believe that trans people deserve to be happy. You don't believe that we deserve to have a moment where we get to have the butterflies in our heart because a black man, the finest black man in the room, gave you a compliment. He didn't want to take you home. He didn't want to do. He walked over to you and said, my God, sister, you are wearing that dress. You look good tonight. And walked away. But that happiness is a happiness that I believe that some CIS women don't believe that trans women deserve to have. You don't deserve to know the kindness or the sweetness of a man, because we barely get any. And that little bit of kindness that he just showed you is now not going to be showed to another cis woman in the room, even though he's complimented 17 sisters here tonight. The only thing that you noticed was when he complimented me. And so I think that there's a multitude of different things, but in order for us to have that conversation, I can't just get on here and say, oh, these girls is jealous of me because I'm cute. Because that's not. It's deeper than that. It's deeper than that. And we have to start having conversations that are deeper than that when we have that conversation. Because everybody ain't jealous of you. Some people have fundamental issues.
- [23:22]
A
Yeah.
- [23:22]
B
You know, and that's okay.
- [23:24]
A
I want to go back to your point about disclosing, because I. There's this whole, you know, conversation about dating while trans and how quickly you need to disclose. And I think people expect that when that man gives you that compliment, oh, you're wearing that dress, that your response is like, I'm trans. Like, thank you, I'm trans. Like, there's this expectation that trans women are immediately supposed to almost have a sign on their head and let everyone know, no, you're allowed to have a drink at the bar with a stranger and have a conversation and a light little flirtation without disclosing your entire medical history.
- [23:56]
B
Yes, but. But also, I. Experiences in my life have taught me that you're not allowed. When I worked at Mac in Dallas, I used to go to an Applebee's every Wednesday after work. They had the best margaritas. It was really close. It was my one little treat to myself as, like, a budding makeup artist in the industry. And this one particular Wednesday, I go having my usual. An African guy walks up to me, gorgeous. My God, he was gorgeous. And he's like, hey, what are you drinking? I wanna refill your drink. And I was like, oh, I'm just having a little $5 margarita. And he's like, no, we're not gonna do a $5 margarita. So he reorders my drink and. And all of the things. And it's very sweet to me and does not even try to pick me up. I think he must have been going to his country because I was at the airport. So, you know, he could have been going to catch a flight. So it was just one of those things where he just wanted to let me know I was beautiful at the bar. And there happened to be a flight attendant who came to my store all the time. And this woman was clearly a terf. She would only come there to tell the other flight attendants that I was trans. It would be like a little spectacle for her. Anytime there was a new flight attendant, she would, like, run them by the store, pretend to care about something but be like, that's the one I was talking about, you know?
- [25:05]
A
Oh, my God.
- [25:06]
B
And she happened to be there that day and saw that beautiful gentleman buy me the drink. And how adamant he was about making sure I had top shelf tequila. And mind you, this is an Applebee's. There's not too much top shelf tequila. Right. But it burned her up that this man could not tell that I was trans. And she walks over to him and she tells him, I felt the energy in the room shift. And so I pay my tab. I don't even get to enjoy this top shelf margarita that he's curated for me. And I leave the door. And as I'm leaving the door and going around the corner to my car, him and all of the men that were sitting at the booth with him are following me. And they jumped me on the side of the aisle.
- [25:45]
A
Hope, I'm so sorry. I was hoping the conversation wasn't gonna go there.
- [25:51]
B
Yeah, no, they beat me pretty badly. They beat me pretty, pretty badly.
- [25:56]
A
I'm so sorry.
- [25:57]
B
And some of those men actually worked at the airport. I later found out, because then I. I had to. Ultimately, I ended up leaving that job because I started to get harassed at work and I would get off pretty late. So I would close the store. And the airport store closes a lot later than every other store because we're in the airport. So I would get off of work sometimes at midnight, and I would be getting to my car in the employee parking lot, 12:30, 1 o'. Clock. And, yeah, I had been followed to my car multiple times. It got so bad to the point where, like, the nighttime drivers, if I had a nighttime shift, they would wait for me to get into my car before they pulled away from the bus stop because I had reported claims of being followed and they refused to check the camera footage and all of that until these men actually got to my car and I pepper sprayed one of them.
- [26:43]
A
Wow, wow, wow. You're married now. You found love with an amazing man. A black man.
- [26:52]
B
A black man.
- [26:52]
A
A black man. But those experiences and the way that people put other people's lives in danger without even. Like, I would like to. Maybe I'm extending this person too much grace. But I would like to think that she didn't imagine that you would be physically harmed.
- [27:09]
B
But I think that a lot of women who have that. Who do that, I believe that what they believe is gonna happen is that the attention is going to be given to them.
- [27:18]
A
To them instead. Exactly, exactly.
- [27:20]
B
And I don't think that they realize that that's not how male ego works at that point. They're not thinking about any woman now. They're thinking about their masculinity coming into question. And so you are not even the focus anymore. You're. You were the messenger. Thank you. But now I have to go protect my masculinity. And that's what they don't realize.
- [27:38]
A
Yeah. And masculinity is fragile. It's interesting that, again, people care so much. Like this. This whole conversation, it recently came up. I don't know if you followed the. Obviously, we've just had the LA mayoral race, and I was very disappointed to see that. That a woman running, a black woman, spent quite a lot of time on her platform talking about trans women in the changing room at gyms. Did you see this?
- [28:06]
B
Yep.
- [28:07]
A
Very unfortunate. Quite literally, the only people who have ever harassed me in public spaces have been Cishet men. The only people that have ever made me feel uncomfortable, that have ever made me feel unsafe, have been Cishet men. So this hyper focus on you could be in an enclosed space or you could be. It's like, again, like, who cares? This isn't a real threat. And what's. What's the obsession? I guess it's just like, I don't. I don't understand some people's preoccupation.
- [28:36]
B
You know, I can't say that I understand it either. I just think that there is. When you are a part of a group of people that nobody cares about, and then somebody tells you that there's a group that people care about even less, it sometimes emboldens you with a power that you did not know that you had access to or would ever have access to. And so I think sometimes there's a rampant up of that because you don't know when you're going to lose that power.
- [28:59]
A
Okay. You saying it that way just made something click for me. I can remember, you know, back in school learning about slavery when they talked about the people that were the most firmly, like, advocating for slavery were the poor white people in the south that did not have access or in their life and would never be able to own slaves. But they had to be at least one step. At least we're one step better than this group, and those were the people. So it's sort of like the more disenfranchised you are, then maybe that makes you have this. I need to be a step above this one group. It's really disappointing, though.
- [29:33]
B
It's unfortunate, especially because I think that as black folks we have a unique history with this that we should know better. And instead I think we just kind of lean and acquiesce to the things that feel easiest. And I hate that we fall into that, but we do.
- [29:46]
A
Yes. Let's talk about the activism work that you do. You are the executive director of the National Trans Visibility March. You are a D.C. dEI consultant for Fortune 500 companies. You're a non profit founder. You're an author, a public speaker. Activism work is very tiring. It's oftentimes not rewarding. The conversation that we've had around Dominique Morgan has been really interesting to see unfold. I would love to, would love to get your thoughts. But what keeps you fighting the good fight around activism and trans visibility? And you do it all looking so good, but what keeps you in that work? Because I think that I'm always the first to say, like, I care deeply about things and I will use my platform, but I think people use the term activist very flippantly and they don't understand what activism. What activism really requires is for you to put the cause above your own self interest. And very few people are willing to do that. Come on. How do you get invested in doing that work or stay invested? How do you stay invested in doing the work that it takes to be an activist?
- [30:51]
B
Because if I don't do it, I'm dead. And I think that that's the part that America as a whole isn't getting right now. If black and brown and women and every minority group outside of the rich, wealthy, white heterosexual men don't get our shit together, that is what is going to happen. Because the goal is never and has never been for there to be a world that is harmonious. And they have their side and we have our side. They don't want us here. They want to eradicate us because they think that it's going to make them more comfortable. And what they don't realize that they don't even like each other. You just bond over not liking us more than you don't like each other. And so I think for me, the thing that keeps me energized is that if Hope ain't doing it, who else, who else is doing it? When I sit back and I do take my rest weeks and when I go in August, I don't work. That's my birthday month. That is not my.
- [31:45]
A
You just take the whole month off. Nothing.
- [31:47]
B
I do not work in August. August, I don't August. If you are trying to book me, that is the worst time to be looking on my page because it's nothing but bikinis and drinks and beaches.
- [31:57]
A
That's very. That's very European of you. I love it.
- [32:00]
B
Yes, very, very. Oh, yeah, it's very Euro summer. Like, it's a very Euro summer over here. And, you know, when I come back and I have DMS or while I'm on vacation, occasionally I'll check and I'll see somebody and there'll be comment after comment after. Oh, my God, where's Hope? Oh, if Hope. Hope. Gotta Hope. What's your thoughts on this? And then when I get back, I realize how many people are like, oh, my God, I missed you because this happened. And I'm just like, there's a void that I fill and there is information and there's a way that I disseminate that information that people really feel like they need. And it's not to say that I'm the only person doing good where there are so many amazing people in the fight doing amazing work, but it regrounds me. Cause it says, hope, if you're not doing this, there's at least 250,000 people that are going to be looking for you to do this work. And so do you want to be untrue to your values, your moral system, and what you set out to do in this work, which is be the person that you did not see that be the person that you did not have growing up? Or do you want to just be well rested and live easy with the blinders on, because not knowing what's happening doesn't change what's happening. It just makes the inevitable happen to you a bit slower because you're unaware that it's coming. And I just refuse to be one of those people.
- [33:14]
A
That's incredible. In terms of trans visibility, what do you wish more people understood? What are facts and figures about the trans community that you feel like aren't as mainstream as they should be?
- [33:26]
B
I don't think that people give a shit about facts and figures. You know, folks don't care, but folks really don't care that the trans suicide rate is up 40% since Trump started. Folks don't care that the homeless rate for black LGBTQ people is. Is, I believe, 15% higher than any other group of people, with trans people being at the top of that and black trans people being at the top of that list. People do not care about the fact that there have been over, I think, at this point, counting up 20 deaths of trans people. And that's just been in the last couple of weeks. And I'm talking about cumulatively, it might have been a month, but not in the same month. And most of them.
- [34:05]
A
Sorry. And most of them have been what happened in Texas.
- [34:07]
B
Yeah.
- [34:07]
A
Happened in Texas. And most of them have been murders.
- [34:11]
B
Yeah.
- [34:11]
A
People that have been literally just targeted
- [34:14]
B
and killed, murdered for no reason. Or they have been intimate partner violence, which is not taken seriously because people refuse to believe that men can find trans women attractive and be in real relationships with us. So they continue to doctor up this she tricked him story, and that's why he's justified in killing. There are so many different things that I don't think that people care about. What I do think that people care about is how. How you make your reality their problem. And how I make my reality your problem is reminding you that as you are pushing me off of this cliff, don't think that there's nobody behind you when they send you out on that mission to get rid of me, they also send somebody to get rid of you because there can be no witnesses. And so as soon as that spear pokes me in the stomach just right and I fall over because I've given up the fight, trust me, you're not going to wipe your brow and turn around and go back to the kingdom. You're going to wipe your brow and realize that there's a spear pointed directly at you too. And rather than having me and my man strength to help you push back, now you're there by yourself and we're both at the end of this ditch. And the problem with that is that most of the time I'm still twitching. My community's gonna come and mend me up. Nobody even knows that you were here doing this devious deed because you knew you had no business doing it. So you told nobody that you came to push me off the cliff in the first place. And that's what I think we need to hold on to for those of
- [35:31]
A
us that do care. What. What can we do? How can we be involved? What are ways that we can show up as allies in our own communities?
- [35:39]
B
I don't want any allies anymore. I know that people are probably tired of this line, but more accomplished it. I need people who are willing to put their time, their resource, their money, their access to the test when you show up and you're invited to those panels. I have like so many of my like, like famous or pseudo famous or insta famous or whatever you are kind of famous girlfriends. And I'm just like. I have to hold your feet to the fire. If you said that you love me and I'm not in these spaces, then why am I not in these spaces? If you're on this panel and don't call me after it's over and say there were no trans women there, and Hope, you would have been so great. Why didn't you submit my name for it? Why didn't you advocate for it? Why didn't you say, actually, I'm going to pull out unless you book Hope for this and make sure that she's paid what everybody else is getting paid. Right.
- [36:24]
A
That's. I love that distinction. So not an ally, but. But an accomplice in the fight boots on the ground in it. Speaking out, willing to lose opportunities for speaking out. What are other ways that people that maybe aren't visible, they're not. They're not being invited to panels themselves, but they're just, like, listening to this podcast and they're like, how do I show up for this community? What are some tangible things that folks can do?
- [36:50]
B
Find folks that you have grown to know, love that the community knows and loves and trusts their. Their works, Follow them and share them. I love to see my brother consciously out here fighting a good fight for the trans people, but he ain't trans. I love to see my sister, Lynae Vanilla out here fighting a good fight for the trans people, but she ain't trans. I love to see Elizabeth Booker and Rasha and all of these amazing cisgender people touting about transness, but they are not trans people. And what that also does is it takes our ability to tell our own stories, and it also takes our ability to be able to make a living off of our stories, the way that CIS people are getting invited to LGBT events to talk about trans people. And that just doesn't make sense. And so I think outside of that, it's about being able to publicly acknowledge the conversation when it comes up for you, that you're not a safe space for bigotry. I think that. That, like, if you're not a super influencer, you're not being invited to the things. Oftentimes you're around when conversations happen and you don't say anything, you'll call your trans friend to have a discussion with them about what they would have done, but you don't actually move in a way that simply says, hey, I don't want to take part in this conversation, so if y' all want me to stay, I'm going to ask that we just switch gears. I'm not saying that y' all need to. That Y' all are wrong. I don't want to argue about it, but I'm just saying that this is a conversation that I don't want to participate in. And so. So. And I think that even little things like that remind people that bigotry is not going to become the new norm as easily as they think that it was.
- [38:25]
A
Yes. You know, I. I took a training at work when I worked at Meta around, like when conversations like this come up and you feel uncomfortable and they taught, they gave a kind of toolkit of things you can do. One of them was just simply saying yikes out loud. Like when someone says something really off, you can just be like, yikes, or asking the person to repeat what they just said. And I find that this is very powerful when someone says something bigoted, you just say, I'm sorry. Could you like, you don't. You basically. You don't, like, let it slide. You basically say, I'm sorry, could you. Could you just repeat that again, what you just said? And then when they're forced to repeat it, they very often recognize the harm in what they've just said. So I feel like even. Even in workplaces there, There are kind of like subtle ways that you can. Yeah. Let. Let people know that you are not a safe space for bigotry, as you so well said. I also just think checking in on people. You know, I was checking in on a friend of mine who was trans just last month, and I said, like, how are you? And she was like, not good. Not good. It has been every single day in this administration. I feel like I am under attack. My mental health is in shambles, you know, but just really checking in and being in community, I think is really important.
- [39:36]
B
You have to. I think that it is. It harkens back to the checking on your strong friends sort of deal. I think a lot of people who have friends who are trans believe that because we are used to it, we go through it all the time. You know, there's always something on our backs. They don't believe that this is hitting us as hard. And especially when you have the types of privileges that I have where I think, for the most part, if I don't want to think about trans or being trans tomorrow, I can.
- [40:02]
A
Right.
- [40:02]
B
But it's still the fact that I have to reckon with. When I go to the doctor's office, when I am navigating conversations around womanhood with specific groups of people, I still have to either be subjected to the bigotry unbeknownst to them, or they're gonna subject me to it because I think I'm better than the people who they would normally do it on. And so it's like, let me take you down a couple of pegs, pretty bitch. You know, and I. That every now and then. You have no idea, Brooke. You probably made her. Even if you didn't have the right words to say. Those people that do that for me, they make my day because they remind me that somebody cares and that I'm not alone and that other people see me.
- [40:41]
A
It.
- [40:42]
B
That. That. You know what? Like, since I've been seeing so much going on. Are you okay?
- [40:45]
A
Yeah.
- [40:46]
B
Even if you ain't got the words, I'm like, you know what? Okay. I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy.
- [40:52]
A
Yes. Yes. I think that can be so powerful. Another thing that people say, because I want to get into beauty, and I want to get into specifically what this community has done to advance the. The whole. I mean, makeup techniques, hair presentation, undergarments. I mean, like, it's actually amazing to think about how far behind the entire beauty industry would be if it weren't for the queer community, the trans community. But something that people say, they say it quite flippantly, and I don't like it. It feels like slightly transphobic. You tell me if you think it's transphobic. When people say they're getting their makeup done and they say like, oh, I don't want to look like a drag queen. Have you heard people say this? Yeah, first of all, yeah, please go. It's like. But it's just like, you wish, like, that would be best case scenario.
- [41:40]
B
Right.
- [41:41]
A
Your face was that beat, but, like.
- [41:43]
B
Right.
- [41:43]
A
It feels slightly transphobic to me when people say that. Don't you think?
- [41:47]
B
I think that people. But you know what? I think that the nuance behind that is because men have become more hyper vigilant of women who wear a certain style of makeup or more makeup. I think that what they're really trying to say is, I don't want to be mistaken for trans. Which is where the transphobia comes in for me. It's just that the phrase is as old as time, because transes wasn't as big of a pull back then when people started saying that. Is that what you really want to say is, I don't want to like a trans person, but drag queen is just more acceptable socially. And so we kind of have kept that. But what you really mean is, don't make me like a trans girl. Right, Right. And I think I don't lean into Transphobia as much as I do transmissia, because the sin. The sentiment behind phobia gives people that slipknot effect that they can do where it's just like, oh, you know, I'm not scared of you. And it's just like, you know what? You're right. But you do have an unfounded disdain or hatred for me. What do you mean? Yeah, you're transmissic, you know, and I think that, like, giving them something that they can't refute because you can't deny that you do have a disdain or an unfounded feeling about me for no reason other than because I'm trans. And it takes out your ability to be able to single out the phobia part of it and ignore the fact that this is really just about your disdain towards me because of that. But there's a lot of influence, I think, that we have in the beauty industry that has stood the test of time. When we think about RuPaul and that iconic Viva Glam campaign, I mean, like, kudos and claps and snaps because the girls are still wearing that overdrawn red lip because of Mother Rue. And I think that we need to be mindful of that. And then when we even think about icons like Ajita William, who was one of the first black trans women who was a movie star. And, yes, she started in porn, and that's okay, but she moved across Europe as one of the most beautiful women. That was how she was marketed, as one of the most beautiful women in Europe. Right. And her makeup techniques and the way that she got her body done and all of those things.
- [43:49]
A
Yes, she was also kind of like a pioneer of plastic surgery. Right? Yeah, she was like, one of the. The first women to, like, really, like,
- [43:58]
B
get the body done, done, and get all of the things done. And also, clearly, it was functional because she. She had a lot of experience using it, you know, and so. And this was a thing that I think was so amazing and beautiful. And then we look at the arrival of Amaya Scott, for God's sakes, she is the original Instagram baddie. Before Amaya started posting random wigs and overdone makeup, like, people were not doing cut creases on a Tuesday just for a YouTube video. And it was the dolls that really brought that out. And it was because we had to be exaggerated in our features, in our makeup, in our hair and all of those things in order to not be clocked. And what ended up happening was that our girlfriends and our sisters and our moms and our aunts Were like, oh, my God, this is gorgeous. And we started to share in that camaraderie around it, and that carried into the industry, and it carried it into entertainment. And then all of a sudden, it was like, gay black men became the more acceptable people in the space. And so they were touted and rewarded with all of the things that they learned from their trans sisters and their trans mothers who were taking in gay men who were being kicked out of their homes. And we're not talking about that renaissance. I think we talk about all of the renaissances, but we're not talking about. We're not talking about the queer renaissance of the 80s and 90s of, like, the. The fallout of the Act up movement and the HIV uprisings and how so many people got rid of their queer sons and they ended up in the home.
- [45:24]
A
Trans women, right, Who.
- [45:25]
B
Who.
- [45:25]
A
Who quite literally became, like, the house mothers and were teaching them everything, literally. To go back to what you were saying about all of the beauty vloggers. I can remember, remember when NikkieTutorials came out as trans, and it was, like, this big, like, girl watershed moment. Like, I feel like if you weren't there, it's, like, hard to even understand.
- [45:43]
B
It's hard to remember.
- [45:45]
A
It was a huge deal.
- [45:46]
B
I remember because I was upset with Nikki. I'm not gonna hold it.
- [45:50]
A
Why were you. Why were you upset? Tell me.
- [45:51]
B
Because I. I think a part of it was jealousy because a lot of the girls didn't know. A lot of the trans girls, we were all gagged because we was like, oh, sister. Okay. But I think that after that, I was upset that the same thing that happened to Lavern, the same thing that happened to Caitlin, the same thing that happens to a lot of these people who already have platform and then, you know, come out or are ushered out by, you know, the industry. I felt like she had a duty to speak about what was going on, and she made that video, she got married to that man, and she continued to do makeup as if she never. She never. And it's not to say that I think that every trans woman has to become an activist, but I believe that when you have a platform that's that big and, you know, when you have a platform that reaches that many people, you have such a duty to every now and then, you know, just pop out and say a 1, 2. And she. She's gotten better about it.
- [46:51]
A
Yeah, I was gonna say she wasn't ready for it. She wasn't ready for it.
- [46:55]
B
She wasn't, and I wasn't Emotionally mature enough to admit that she needed her own time to sit with that as well. So. But that was the shot. That was the trans shot heard around the world trial. We were all gagged at the nicu.
- [47:06]
A
Everyone was like, wait, what?
- [47:08]
B
What?
- [47:08]
A
But you're absolutely right in terms of trans women have had to sculpt and create. And I actually just did an episode about Paris is Burning and how it really informs the way that I get dressed. Because I always think about like, what category am I walking in? Like, if I'm going to an event, I'm like, what's the category I'm walking in? How do I win this category? And how do I pull the look that's gonna make me win this category? But you know, shows like Pose, I feel like essential viewing. I do. I think Paris is Burning is essential viewing for anyone that's interested in beauty, fashion, culture, nightlife. I mean, you're right that there was this like very concentrated time in the 80s, late 80s, early 90s, where so much of the culture that we just have this commonplace today, so much of the words that we use, the. What do you think about people doing the clocket thing wrong? This versus this thought? I'm like, let me. For people listening, putting my middle finger to my thumb or putting my index finger to my thumb. So people do it index finger to thumb, but the original is middle finger to thumb. But now it's become so common to do it the other way that sometimes I find myself doing it the other way and I'm like, no, Brooke, you know, this is the right way. But what do you think?
- [48:15]
B
Yeah, yeah, I. I just hate when things are colonized from any community, you know, to be honest. And I also hate it because I think that at least when the colonization happens to other people, like when people do the things with like Indians and like, you know, the cultural appropriation that we do sometimes by accident or just because of cultural things before we woke up. It's not that you dislike Indians, it's just that you were ill informed. But what I hate about when people colonize queer culture, you'll be the same people that will sit back and you'll clap when, you know, a trans woman is murdered by a man who she was actually dating. You will be excited about a young gay boy being kicked out of his school for defending himself against the bully because he was the distraction in the classroom. But then you'll sit on the phone with your girlfriend talking about it. It saying, oh girl, clock that tea, cuz these little sissies. What Clock that tea and call him a in the same sentence. Don't even work together, sis. Like, that's not how that works. If you don't like the gay, then you don't like the lingo. You don't like the life. You don't like anything about. Like, if I genuinely think that this is an abomination, that I don't find anything that you do cute. Nothing about what you have going on, including you speak.
- [49:30]
A
Yes. You shouldn't be allowed to contour. You shouldn't. You shouldn't be allowed any of it. No access to the culture.
- [49:36]
B
Like, because you shouldn't want it, right? If you are so. Especially the biblically against it people. If you are so biblically against it, then don't take anything from it, you know, because when we say that we don't mess with white folks and we say we don't mess with that white folk stuff, we don't take. We. We stop shopping at Target because the white folks had us messed up, right? And so if we are willing to not take. Take from these people, then why are we still clocking it, huh? Why? We still. If we don't like the. If we don't like the gays and the things that they come up with, if we don't like the trans girls, then why are we out here getting body pumped like them? Because that hourglass figure didn't just come because we saw cisgender women who are naturally born like that. Y' all didn't start getting that until you saw your first femme queen walking down the street and wondering how that man could have that much body. And what's crazy to me is that this man was nice enough to share with you the secret, and then you turn around and use it and then weaponize it against her because she's trans, and now you have access to this thing that she was the one that put you onto.
- [50:42]
A
You've said it perfectly. You've said it perfectly. Well, here in the naked beauty community, we are grateful for all of the tips and. And I just. The skincare, the makeup.
- [50:52]
B
Yes.
- [50:54]
A
I'm gonna get to your hair. Cause, like, the hair journey is also fascinating to me. But let's just start with the skin. How do you keep your skin so glowing and gorgeous? And you have, like, the. I've seen all of your peach pictures. Like, you have, like, the same tone all over your body. Like, the skin on your body looks so soft and, like, just even and gorgeous.
- [51:13]
B
So just put us on when I tell you so. It's retinol. 2% by ordinary. I mix that into my Saltier body cream because they work. Oh, baby, it's so good.
- [51:25]
A
It's like, what scent do you, what scent do you like?
- [51:28]
B
So it's the one, it's vanilla something. It's in the, the light tan, not the dark one because that's sand tall. I know that.
- [51:34]
A
That's the tall bloom. Yes.
- [51:36]
B
So it's the light tan one. And that one is like vanilla coconut something because that's like, I like things that are warm underneath because I always put things that are either fruity or just as warm on top, top. But I mix in the 2%, not the.02% because they're different. So I ordinary has a 2% retinol and I pour that into my Saltaire. And because it's a micro lipid, it really works to soften the skin, even everything out, keep you nice and moisturized 24 hours. And they work really well together. So I mix those two up. And that's my daily body cream, which is the thing that keeps me even there. And then tear tier actually has this, this ceramic milk that I love to use.
- [52:17]
A
Okay, tell me what this does.
- [52:19]
B
So this locks in all of my moisture. So I literally have all of my steps are here because I typically do my get ready with me here. So I will start with some drunken elephant and I use their moisturizer. And then after that I use the good molecules moisturizer. And then I use Olay's super serum. Because this is where the glow starts. The glow starts at the super serum. And then afterwards Insta Free has this other, like, serum Y, sort of.
- [52:49]
A
Yes, okay. Green tea seed hyaluronic acid serum. Okay. Yeah. And Innisfree is well priced and they make great products.
- [52:56]
B
And I, I, they are so good. And then I top everything off with my secret ingredient. This tier.
- [53:03]
A
Tier.
- [53:03]
B
It is the secret to glass skin. And yes, I put this on before I put my makeup on. I literally put my makeup right on top of look all of that.
- [53:11]
A
And give me the product name one more time because I know everyone's going to want to add this to their cart. And I'll link to it in the show notes. But tier, tier also we should say Korean company. I always say the Koreans are 10 years ahead of us.
- [53:20]
B
Yes.
- [53:21]
A
Okay. And it's called the ceramic milk ampoule. Okay.
- [53:26]
B
When I tell you. But ladies, gentlemen's, theys and thems, this is your final step. This is your final step. You want that glass skin. You want to look just, you know, Like, Like, I mean, just that is how, like, people think that it's highlight. It's not highlight. It's this peeking through my makeup in all the right places.
- [53:48]
A
Okay.
- [53:49]
B
And so that is. That's. That's the glow. That. That is the face glow.
- [53:53]
A
And what do you put on your body? There is a picture of you that lives in my head rent free. You're in Havana. You're in this Michael Costello yellow gown, and your body is just glistening. And I'm like, like, when I interview Hope, I need to know what. What was on the body.
- [54:08]
B
Bam.
- [54:09]
A
Sol de Janeiro. I love that you have the products with you. Sol de Janeiro. Okay. What is this. What is this product called?
- [54:15]
B
So this is a body cream, and this one is 71 because it's my favorite fragrance. But it also has reflex glitter that you can't even see.
- [54:24]
A
Ooh. Okay. Like those gold specks of glitter, but
- [54:28]
B
they are so micro that you do not see them until you are actually spreading the cream across your body. And, like, so if you're a girl who want sheen and shine but not necessarily glitter, this is for you. I'm a glitter girl. I need to see the glitter. Like, I need to walk in and flex and all of those things. But if you are a person that just wants like that sheen from all over, that Sol de Janeiro. And specifically the. This one is Chosa 71 body cream. This is my favorite. I believe it's the only one that has the glitter in it because it's like, caramelly and really nice. And again, I love warm scent. So if you're not like a vanilla caramel girl, this ain't gonna be for you as far as the scent goes. Those. But it is the one that I use specifically. And then Lush has this for my glitter little fix. It's called Golden Egg. It's a. It's a seasonal product that they only make around Christmas, but I buy like four or five sprays. I don't. You really. I use glitter all the time because I'm always booked somewhere and I use it literally. You're never going to run into me. And I'm not sparkling. If there is skin showing, it is sparkling, trust me. But I just buy like, maybe two or four of them, and that'll last me until they restock for Christmas again the next year. This one actually does have, like, live flecks of glitter and things like that in it. So. Yeah.
- [55:44]
A
Gorgeous. Gorgeous. What are your go to favorite makeup brands or products?
- [55:49]
B
Ooh. Okay, so now it's tier. Tier it's definitely tier tier. And I. It sucks because they have. They've pretty much taken over my entire makeup routine. I. Oh, wow. But if it's not them, I love about face, so. About Face by Halsey. Halsey, thank you. Thank you so much for. I. Now, don't get me wrong, tear tier has, you know, taken over my. My foundation routine for now. But if I'm ever out of it before I run to the store and, like, have to pick that up, I can use my about face, and I'm just fine. It has skin care built already into it. There's humectants already built into it. So for those of you all who don't understand that humectants bring moisture to the skin. They keep you looking nice and dewy and light without looking wet all day. And Halsey has built in with dermatologists, things that actually help the look of your skin, the feel of your skin. You'll notice after a couple of uses that, like, my skin just felt like it was glowing better. The makeup comes off easier at the end of the night. I'm not, like, tugging at my makeup wipe to get it off, but it does last long. It wears well. The transfer isn't bad. It's there, you know, because it's still makeup, but it's not bad. And I just really enjoy About Face as far as my foundation. Foundation. YSL on the lip is always going to be one of my favorite ones. And goes to. And what is this one? I am blonde, and the way I would have to look all the way up in there and say, I. But just know that the YSL lippies, whether they are a sheen or a matte, like, I. I love a good ysl. And then Patrick Star. I don't know what lab Patrick being with those beauty experts, but let me tell you something.
- [57:29]
A
The one side, the one size, and
- [57:31]
B
this setting spray the oil sucker spray.
- [57:34]
A
Oh, okay. See, I have dry skin, so the oil sucker spray. I have to stay far away. But I hear for the girls that get oily, it's a game changer.
- [57:42]
B
I only t zone it because I'm the same way.
- [57:45]
A
Okay?
- [57:45]
B
I only spray where necessary. I do not spray. Like, even today, I only sprayed it just a smidge on, like, my nose, and I sprayed it from far away because I still want. Want sheen, because I feel like that keeps you looking like a human being. But I don't want to be greasy, so I love that. But also as the antithesis, I do still have, as you can see, I use it. This is the powder melt foundation. Look, if you are one of those girls that gets dry patches and all this powder melt is going to melt that down, and then you can use the OG to mattify you back up. I am a queen of a layering the setting spray moments. It's so good.
- [58:22]
A
Yes. You used to work at Mac, and there's been a whole discourse that's like, kind of come back on threads about, like, are there any, like, OG Mac products that people still use? It's been so fun seeing the replies. One of the things that had me dying laughing, they were saying, no matter what shade of brown you were, everyone was like, an NC45 girl.
- [58:41]
B
No matter.
- [58:41]
A
And I was like, wait. But I was dying because I was like, wait, that was my shade. And I'm looking in the replies of all these people saying, like, that was my shade. So I was like, you just had brown skin. And they were like, NC45. Yeah. Pick it up. Are there any Mac products that you feel like are really still it? I. I have two in my head, but I want to hear from you.
- [59:03]
B
Lip pencils are, bar none. I'm gonna be a chestnut girly to the day that I die.
- [59:07]
A
Yeah.
- [59:08]
B
So I think that we can all agree that Chestnut is not going anywhere. They can discontinue Mac completely, and the only product that they can sell is Chestnut pencils, and they would still not go out of business. Business just selling pencils. But I also think that time check lotion, for those of you. Baby, let me tell y' all something. Time check if you are oily, if you are textured, if you are dry. Time check is a textured little lotion, and we use it to fill in fine lines. It has a little bit less of a humectant, so it's not as. It's not going to draw in as much moisture, but it's still going to feel moisturizing to the skin. It works as a primer. So if you forget your primer, but you got that time check lotion on you, it's going to be fine. The makeup sits beautifully on it. If I can't. If I don't want to, like, bring 50,000 primers, or if I'm on a trip where, like, I'm trying to worry about the. The bag, and time check lotion is going to be in my bag, it is just. It's phenomenal, and it's such an underrated product at Mac, but it's one of my favorites.
- [60:12]
A
Okay, I'm gonna have to check that out.
- [60:14]
B
Yes. It's one of my favorites. I love it's. And it has a beautiful blurring effect. It's like Danessa Myrick's blurring balm. But I just feel like it glides a little bit better. And it does this. It's. It's like this cast of glory. It's so gore.
- [60:30]
A
Oh, my gosh. We could do a whole hour on hair, skin, nails. But listen, we're gonna have another opportunity when we can get in the studio and just talk more quickly on your hair journey, because I think it's the relationship we have with our hair as well. Women. It's. It's fraught. There's a lot. What has been your hair journey?
- [60:49]
B
I. I fall in love and out of love with different things. I. I'm such a chameleon. And I. I love to. I'm very dressing for the category.
- [60:58]
A
Yes, me too. We're a lot alike because I'm. My hair changes every two weeks.
- [61:03]
B
Yeah.
- [61:04]
A
Something a little different.
- [61:05]
B
The locs are the only thing that I've been able to settle with for longer than. Than two weeks because I just feel I can wake up and go. I feel so powerful. I feel empowered. I feel beautiful and sexy and. And. And just effortless and ever best. Even with, like, the extra little miracle knots added in, it just still feels like me. And I don't have to put too much maintenance into it. And so I really just love my lock moment, but I also love my bald head. So you'll always catch me with a pair of clippers. Just, you know, like, really quick. You know, I'm. I'm good for that, but I love a good wig because I love being able to, you know, be a curly bob in the morning and a 60 inch bust down for the party that night and, you know, all of those things. But I think as I get older, I. I lean into being able to recreate those moments in stereotypically black hairstyles. So I want my braids. I want to be able to manipulate my braids into something that, you know, I can do a bob with my braids. Watch me fold these up real quick and give y' all this cute little moment, you know, And I just think that. That we are so. We are such ingenuitive people that we find a way to make anything work to get what we want in the way that works for us. And so my hair journey has been beautiful because I've learned to embrace it. And I've also learned that, like, long hair don't make you a woman, and short Hair don't make you a man. Hair is whatever you make of it. And so I'm happy to be freed from the shackles of that.
- [62:27]
A
And how did you land on this beautiful red? Because I think experimental experimenting with color is also something like, I see so many women with braids, men and women with braids in the 1B. And I'm like, you can do anything with braids. Like, put. Throw a little something in there, a little. A little caramel, a little blonde. Like, everyone. If you get braids and you have not experimented with color, like, what are you waiting for, summer 2026? This is your. This is your time to experiment with color in your braids. But this bright red that you have is so gorgeous. How did you.
- [62:57]
B
You.
- [62:57]
A
How did you. Because you kind of have a little bit maybe of red undertones. It just work, like. It just works so well for you.
- [63:04]
B
And that's like. I know color theory. So that's. That's the other thing. Like, when you know color theory, you kind of sort of know what works. And so my usual color is what I like to call Beyonce brown. So there's always, like, a four. The caramels. There's a little bit of 613 somewhere in there to just give me a little bit of light every now and then. But my. Me and my Loctician Ronnie, shout out to Ronnie, like, locks. Ronnie and I were talking, and he was like, hope, I know you are going to ask me to. To. To do it the same color we always do. I want to see you in something different. I was like, ronnie, what? You know, and he was like, I don't know, like, just give me a different color. And, you know, he was like, I'll take one stab at it, and if I don't like what you say, then we'll just go with your usual. And I was like, okay. And so I go on Pinterest, and all the black girls are like, ginger, ginger, ginger, red, red, red. And. And essentially I was like, okay, let's go red, coppery. Let's do it. Let's see if I like it. And he spinned me around in that chair when he was done, and I was an unstoppable force.
- [64:05]
A
Yes. You were like, this is it.
- [64:07]
B
Yeah.
- [64:08]
A
It has been so amazing learning from you, getting to know you better. We have to do a part two, especially, you know, we're Leo sisters. We've got so much in common, and we've definitely got to do a part two, but I'm so glad that we were just able to have this conversation. And I learned a lot.
- [64:24]
B
Oh, so happy. This was so. I had a lot of fun and your questions were so dynamic. I hate when people ask me the most basic questions. And so these questions I was actually excited to answer. So 10 out of 10 in my book already.
- [64:37]
A
Oh, well, that's so kind. Where can people find you and catch up with you?
- [64:42]
B
So you can go to hope giselle.com that is h o p e g I s l l e dot com and there you'll be able to find my events, you'll be able to find all of my social media so you don't have to scour the Internet looking for me. Everything is linked and even if you just want to go straight to the Instagram or everything else, it is just Hope Giselle. Just my name. The only place that I could not get my name is on the Tik Tok. Somebody got it before me, but it is Hope Giselle one on Tik Tok, but it's Hope Giselle everywhere else. And. And yeah.
- [65:12]
A
Amazing. And I have to ask you my final question that I ask everyone who's ever been on Naked Beauty. When do you feel most beautiful?
- [65:20]
B
Ooh, After I have taken a shower in the morning and I have finished applying my tear tier milk syringe and I am just allowing myself to take in the day before I come and I sit in my space and I do my get ready with me with my people. I feel so beautiful staring in that mirror at myself naked and you know, before the filters, before the lights, before I put a little edge control on, I just feel the most beautiful when I am able to just look at me as I come.
- [65:55]
A
Amazing. Amazing. You have such a beautiful spirit. I so appreciated our time together and we will catch up soon.
- [66:02]
B
Absolutely. Thank you for. Thanks for having me.
- [66:05]
A
That was my incredible conversation with Hope Giselle. And I'm happy that I am recording this outro after the fact because I have an update for you all. She talked in our episode about how important it was to be not just an ally, but an accomplice. And she talked specifically about people will say, oh, I did this panel and there were no trans women included. And I really took that to heart and I really thought, thought about, okay, what are ways that I can work with the access I have to make opportunities for extremely deserving women like Hope Giselle. And I'm proud to share that Hope is going to be on stage at Essence Fest at beautycon doing an incredible panel about the intersection between activism and beauty and desirability politics. And it really came from her waking up in me. Okay, yes. What am I doing to make sure again that our trans sisters have these opportunities? And how do I figure out how I can use my access to help others? And that goes for, for all of us, all different gender identities, all different backgrounds. We really do owe it to one another to show up and build community for each other. So I hope you can take that with you as you go into the rest of your day of your week. Thank you all so much for listening. And I will be back next week with a new episode of Naked Beauty.
- [67:28]
B
Attitude rules. That's the filly and I need me in the game I'm the thrill in your life Breath of fresh air little boys hang me on they wall I grow them chest head why you listen to other shit? You got the best head come on try your luck shorty I got the
- [67:40]
A
rest gay Bet you anything you ain't
- [67:42]
B
ready and you get left there ain't known for fronting bouts for my behavior Same way they get down I get down for this paper 16. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hello American podcast listeners. Max Rushton here from the Guardian Football Weekly, which I think you should give a listen.
- [68:09]
A
It is good.
- [68:10]
B
It comes out three times a week and the podcast delivers you analysis news, both the good and the bad from the beautiful game and maybe even the occasional laugh. He's angry about everything.
- [68:19]
A
He doesn't have a great poker face, does he?
- [68:22]
B
I would like to play cards with Bruno Fernando. You can listen to the Guardian Football Weekly wherever you get your podcasts. Hopefully see you soon. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.