Lymphatic Drainage, Gut Health, and Holistic Skincare ft Shani Hillian

Summary

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Naked Beauty Podcast: "Lymphatic Drainage, Gut Health, and Holistic Skincare"

Host: Brooke DeVard
Guest: Shani Hillian, Licensed Esthetician & Founder of In Groove
Date: September 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into holistic skincare with celebrated esthetician Shani Hillian. Brooke and Shani discuss the cultural influences on their beauty journeys, holistic and simplified approaches to skin and hair care, the intimate relationship between gut health and skin, debunking myths in beauty trends, and realistic self-care as modern women and mothers. Shani shares personal anecdotes, research-backed advice, and practical routines that listeners can bring into their own wellness rituals.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Holistic Beauty Roots & Jamaican Influence

• Family and Culture: Shani’s approach to beauty and wellness was shaped by her Jamaican heritage and a grandmother who relied on garden-grown ingredients.
  • "Everything came from the yard. And that's essentially how I started my journey." — Shani (03:36)
• Natural Ingredients: Use of aloe (“sinko Bible”), home-grown vegetables, and DIY skin and hair treatments started in childhood and remained a foundation.

2. Career Path in Beauty

• From Tomboy to Skin Expert: Shani initially envisioned a career as a hairstylist, modeled in New York, and witnessed the toll industry life took on skin health.
  • "I saw a lot of models who really had tough skin… I just went back to how I was raised with making masks and doing all of that... I want to do this full time." — Shani (04:46)
• Passion-Driven Work: Making masks out of genuine care, not for profit or recognition, reaffirmed her calling.

3. Beauty Rituals Are Not Gendered

• Inclusive Self-Care: Shani and Brooke discuss how self-care isn’t limited by gender, and how their families (including sons) practice grooming rituals.
  • "Men should upkeep themselves also." — Shani (08:57)

4. Simplicity as the Core Skincare Philosophy

• Paring Back Routines:
  • "If you have a simple routine, you can build on that. We don't need to apply so many products… you’re just wasting your money." — Shani (09:36)
• Must-Have Steps: Cleanser is the most important foundational product.
  • "If you're going to invest in anything, the cleanser is very important." — Shani (10:20)
• Cleansing Technique: Proper technique means washing for at least 60 seconds, using oil cleansers first (especially for makeup wearers), followed by water-based cleansers.
  • "You have to do a minimum of 60 seconds." — Shani (11:17)

5. Product Recommendations

• Oil Cleanser: In Groove Every Mood Oil Cleanser (by Shani)
• Water-Based Cleanser: Epilogic pink cleanser; La Roche-Posay, Caudalie—accessible French drugstore brands.
• Drugstore Picks: Don't overlook quality at approachable price points.

6. Shani’s Natural Hair Routine

• Postpartum Regrowth: Honest discussion about hair loss during pregnancy and the recovery journey.
  • "My hair felt… fell out completely… I cut it all off and started fresh." — Shani (14:57)
• Product Lineup:
  • Innersense shampoo & conditioner
  • L’Oreal Curl Expression mousse
  • Innersense I Create Hold gel
  • Deep conditioning each wash (Slick, aloe as pre-poo)
• Protective Styles: Cautions that not all hair types benefit from protective braid styles; personalized assessment is key.

7. Gut Health & Skin Connection

• Defining the Microbiome:
  • "The gut microbiome is basically like, a combination of the good bacteria and the bad bacteria that balances literally the inflammation in your body." — Shani (19:57)
• Personal Experience: Found that a strictly vegan diet led to health challenges, e.g., kidney stones due to excess oxalates.
• Individualized Diagnostics: Advocates for medical testing (e.g., stool tests) to identify sensitivities and root causes for issues like bloating, rather than self-diagnosing.
  • "I went to my doctor and then I sought… integrative nutritionist, and it was amazing." — Shani (23:59)
• Balance, Not Deprivation:
  • "I truly believe in balance. I don't do it all the time… you don’t want to overdo anything." — Shani (25:02)

8. Food Choices – Myths & Reality

• Dairy & Cheese: Not universally “bad”; personal tolerances vary.
• Sugary Treats: Indulgence is fine in moderation; lifestyle habits matter more than single foods.
• Fermented Foods After Antibiotics: Sauerkraut, kimchi, kefir recommended for supporting gut recovery.
  • "If you take just like a tablespoon or two of sauerkraut, that's going to be equal to like a supplement of probiotics." — Shani (28:22)

9. Body Care & Lymphatic Drainage

• Dry Brushing Myths Debunked:
  • "People should open up and massage their lymph nodes first before they dry brush so that you can probably detox your body." — Shani (32:37)
  • Key lymph node areas: behind ears, collarbone, armpits, groin, behind knees.
  • Massage for about 10 seconds to prep for dry brushing.
• Sweating as Detox: Promotes exercise, sauna sessions for skin glow, detox, improved blood flow, and collagen production.
  • "If you want a good glow, go work out for a little bit… it's the oxygen, it's the blood flow." — Shani (34:52, 35:22)

10. Professional Practice & Product Philosophy

• Returning to Practice: Shani gives facials part-time at Carrie Lindsay Beauty in Fort Greene, Brooklyn. (37:00)
• Launching In Groove:
  • Sought multi-purpose, minimal, travel-friendly products for her brand.
  • Oil cleanser formulated to be effective for all skin types (non-comedogenic, hydration-focused, aloe inspired by Jamaican roots).
  • "I just wanted it to be simple with multi nutrients." — Shani (38:45)

11. Knowing Your Skin Type

• DIY Test: Cleanse with water-based wash, leave skin bare for 30 minutes & observe.
  • Shiny T-zone + dry cheeks = combination
  • Dry = dry, No change = normal, Oily all over = oily
• Oily Skin Myths: Oily skin still needs oils; choose the right blend and quantity.
  • "The more oils that are in a formulation, the lighter the oil will be." — Shani (39:40)

12. Self-Care and Motherhood

• Balance & Boundaries: Saturday mornings protected for solo time—yoga, rest, or quiet reflection.
  • "It's my time, and that's what I'm going to do for myself." — Shani (43:18)
• Most Beautiful Moments:
  • "I feel most beautiful when I'm stripped down to the bear… I can just be me with no makeup, with no anything." — Shani (44:15)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Everything came from the yard. And that's essentially how I started my journey." — Shani (03:36)
• "Men should upkeep themselves also." — Shani (08:57)
• "If you're going to invest in anything, the cleanser is very important." — Shani (10:20)
• "You have to do a minimum of 60 seconds." — Shani (11:17)
• "My hair fell out completely… I cut it all off and started fresh." — Shani (14:57)
• "The gut microbiome is basically like, a combination of the good bacteria and the bad bacteria that balances literally the inflammation in your body." — Shani (19:57)
• "I went to my doctor and then I sought… integrative nutritionist, and it was amazing." — Shani (23:59)
• "If you take just like a tablespoon or two of sauerkraut, that's going to be equal to like a supplement of probiotics." — Shani (28:22)
• "People should open up and massage their lymph nodes first before they dry brush so that you can probably detox your body." — Shani (32:37)
• "If you want a good glow, go work out for a little bit… it's the oxygen, it's the blood flow." — Shani (34:52, 35:22)
• "I just wanted it to be simple with multi nutrients." — Shani (38:45)
• "The more oils that are in a formulation, the lighter the oil will be." — Shani (39:40)
• "It's my time, and that's what I'm going to do for myself." — Shani (43:18)
• "I feel most beautiful when I'm stripped down to the bear… I can just be me with no makeup, with no anything." — Shani (44:15)

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Segment Timestamps

• [02:44] Shani’s Jamaican familial beauty roots
• [04:46] Shani’s career transition, modeling, and expertise
• [06:48] Beauty rituals for sons & gender inclusivity
• [09:36] Argument for pared down skincare
• [11:17] Proper face cleansing method and timing
• [12:14] Shani’s product recommendations (cleansers, brands)
• [14:36] Shani’s natural hair journey and routines
• [19:57] Gut microbiome explained and holistic health links
• [23:29] Importance of medical guidance for gut issues
• [25:02] Balanced approach to indulgent foods
• [28:22] Foods for gut healing post-antibiotics (sauerkraut, kimchi)
• [32:37] Lymphatic drainage myths and best practices
• [34:52] Sweating & exercise for skin health
• [37:00] Where to get Shani’s facials (Brooklyn)
• [38:45] Shani’s approach to product formulation for In Groove
• [39:40] How to choose and use facial oils
• [43:18] Shani’s self-care strategy as a working mom
• [44:15] When Shani feels most beautiful

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Memorable Moments

• Sparkling parallels between Brooke and Shani’s lives as beauty professionals and mothers.
• Open discussion of postpartum hair loss and real postpartum recovery tips.
• Candid myth-busting on diet fads, restrictive wellness, Botox, and “detox” rituals.
• Shani’s direct, friendly, and practical advice throughout; Brooke’s warm, relatable interviewing.

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For more information on products and resources discussed, see the show notes.
Book a treatment with Shani at Carrie Lindsay Beauty in Brooklyn or explore In Groove products for streamlined, holistic skincare.

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This summary captures the episode’s holistic, inspiring tone and practical wisdom—perfect for listeners seeking reliable, balanced guidance on modern beauty and well-being.

Transcript

[Shani Hillian]

Sweetest thing I've ever known was like the kiss on.

[Brooke Devard]

Hello, hello, it's Brooke Devard, and you're listening to the Naked Beauty Podcast. Welcome back to another week of incredible beauty conversation. And today's guest, Shani is such a treat. As I was interviewing her, I was like, wait, we really have parallel lives. Except she's way more on it about her hair care specifically than I am. She does the skin, she does the hair, she takes care of her body, she eats well. Really a role model to us all. I am trying to get like shani. Maybe in 2026. 2026 will be my year to do everything right. Shani Hillian is a licensed esthetician with 17 years of experience helping clients better understand and care for their skin. Shani is also a writer, and her expertise has landed her bylines in Allure, Essence, Popsugar, and more. In 2023, Shani launched her own skincare line, In Groove, which is inspired by Shani's love for natural ingredients and ritualistic sk self care. Shani, like me, is also a mom of two. I'm so excited for you guys to hear this conversation. I'm recording this intro from Ibiza. We arrived last night, my husband and I. It's our first vacation without the kids. Soho House opened a new property here. So I'm in one of the little houses at Soho House in Ibiza. It's this beautiful little farmhouse. Umut's at the pool. And I said, okay, babe, I have to just do very, very quickly one quick, quick thing for the podcast. He knows how important the podcast is, so he said, okay, you go do it and then meet me by the pool. So as you guys are listening to this, I will be by the pool, lounging, enjoying this very brief and rare opportunity to be on vacation with the love of my life without our kids, who are also the loves of my life. But it's nice to just be husband and wife on this beautiful vacation. I know you guys are going to enjoy this conversation so much. Shani, thank you so much for blessing the Naked Beauty podcast. And let's get into it. Hi, Shani. Welcome to Naked Beauty. Hi.

[Shani Hillian]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Brooke Devard]

I'm so excited to have you on because I feel like I really started my beauty journey in the holistic space. It was making my own hair masks, making my own facial serums, my own facial mists, making my own fragrance, and now I have a fragrance line. But I really. My first approach to beauty was mixing in the kitchen, melting down butters Getting it wrong sometimes, but, like, really diving into natural ingredients. And as I've, you know, been gifted tons of things every month, I feel like I've strayed away from that a little bit. But reading about your background and just, like, seeing your work over the years, I know you are very much a holistic skin care, hair care, wellness girly.

[Shani Hillian]

Thank you. I'm excited as well. I'm so glad that we parallel with that, because that's where I started from childhood.

[Brooke Devard]

So, Shani, you are Jamaican, and I'm curious, what beauty rituals did you learn from the people and culture around you growing up?

[Shani Hillian]

So the beauty rituals that I learned stem from my grandmother, who was raised on the countryside in St. Catherine. She grew up on a farm, and her mother had the only market in the town. So everything stemmed from their farm plants, everything around them, and they sold them to the community. So I grew up with a grandmother who is now 82. I'm super blessed to still have her here. She taught me everything about, you know, skincare, using oils, using hair masks, aloe to calm things, heal your skin.

[Brooke Devard]

And so when you say aloe, do you mean just, like, cut right from.

[Shani Hillian]

The aloe and put directly on? Yes. And in Jamaica, they call it sinko Bible. So she would tell me, go, you know, cut a piece of sinkle Bible, put it on the cut that I have. It just everything came from the yard. And that's essentially how I started my journey.

[Brooke Devard]

I love that I had a chance to visit Jamaica. I went to Port Antonio. It was years ago now, but one of the things that really struck me as we were driving, all of the homes, small, modest homes, had gardens in the back. And the Jamaican person that we were with, they were like, yeah, that's very common. Like, people just grow their own fruits and vegetables. And here in the US it's like this very bougie. Like, oh, I have a garden. Like, it's like this very. But it's just like. No, that's just a way of life there. You are so close to nature, and it's part of just the way that you live.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah, it's the. It's the weather. You know, everyone can. You know what I mean? And even when she moved to Philly, I grew up in Philadelphia. She had a garden in the heart of the city. She created a little garden in her backyard. So we had tomatoes and we had cucumbers, and we had all of these things to just grab from and, you know, have dinner with, and it was just. It was great.

[Brooke Devard]

I love that you're saying the weather, But I promise you, even if the weather conditions were perfect in the US not everyone would have a garden. You know, it's cultural. It's cultural. So what made you gravitate towards having a career in beauty?

[Shani Hillian]

You know, that was. It's funny because I kind of grew up a tomboy, you know, like, I have five brothers, I have four sisters, but we kind of all were getting, like, down and dirty all the time. So it's funny that I did wind up doing skincare. I went to beauty school and I thought I wanted to be a hairstylist, but I really liked the skincare portion much better. So I was a hairstylist for two years and I said it's not really my thing. And I really liked the skincare portion. And I started modeling in New York. I got signed and I saw a lot of models who really had tough skin. You know, from the diets to travel to everything makeup. And I just went back to how I was raised with making masks and doing all of that in the, in the hotels and the model houses. And I just was like, I want to do this. I want to do this full time. Yeah. So that's what I started doing. I still, thankfully, I had the license to do it because I went to beauty school and then I got signed. So I just gravitated towards that, took educational classes after that, and I just dove in.

[Brooke Devard]

I love that. Well, you have beautiful natural hair. We're gonna get. I need your whole hair care routine. But, you know, there's this, like, common theme that I'm hearing across several episodes of Naked Beauty where people talk about doing things for free without anyone ask. And then they realized this is actually what I'm passionate about and this should be my work. So no one was asking you to make a face mask, but you just felt this, like you felt called to do it?

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah, I was doing it with my mom. I did it with my grandmother. You know, my grandmother worked, she had a full time job, she came home, she cooked for us all, and we did our weekend ritual of at night. She used to do her skincare, put in her rollers, put on her bonnet and go to bed. And I just loved it. It's really a key part of childhood that I really cherish. So it felt natural.

[Brooke Devard]

I have a son, and you said you have five brothers. And this is a very serious question, because my son sees me lotioning myself, doing my skin. He sees me do all of those things, and I'm like, is he going to Have a routine when he gets older. So do your brothers have a routine?

[Shani Hillian]

Yes, they do.

[Brooke Devard]

Wait, this makes sense.

[Shani Hillian]

My three older brothers, first of all, they're as clean as me. My mom was very adamant about them taking care of themselves. So my brothers, growing up, we were all athletes. We all ran track and field, and.

[Brooke Devard]

I ran track, too. What was your event?

[Shani Hillian]

I did 100, 200, 400 in high jump.

[Brooke Devard]

Wait, I'm actually dying right now. I did 100. 200. 400 was really, like, my star event. I'll ask you if you also have this in common, because I did track for all of middle school and high school. I hate running. You can't paint. Like, I do not run. Do you run still?

[Shani Hillian]

I do run. I do run. I cannot.

[Brooke Devard]

I'm traumatized.

[Shani Hillian]

I can't do long distances. I would love in my lifetime to do a marathon. I just get so bored. So I just. Yeah, I just. I cap it at five miles, and that's it.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. We were talking about your brothers, and I got all excited about tracking my brothers. Everyone was an athlete.

[Shani Hillian]

Everyone was an athlete. That's how my parents met when my mom came to America. So they get manicures. They cut their own hair. They taught themselves how to cut their own hair. They really keep themselves up. My. My brother is a trainer and a nutritionist. One of my brothers and my other brother is a nurse. So a lot on their feet. A lot of, you know, wear and tear on the body. They get massages. They do the whole thing.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my God.

[Shani Hillian]

Really keep themselves up. Yeah, I know.

[Brooke Devard]

I love it. And I'm sure they have.

[Shani Hillian]

For sure.

[Brooke Devard]

I was gonna say, I'm sure they have no problem finding dates, but. Yeah. So they're. They're already taken off the market?

[Shani Hillian]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Yeah. You know, I think it's so interesting. And, of course, now I have a girl, and I know you have two girls, but when I. When I just had a boy, obviously, like, boys are so great, but I had this, like, yearning to have a daughter to, like, pass things on to. But then as he got older, before Jade was born, I realized, like, actually, I can do beauty experiences with my son. Like, it's not a gender thing.

[Shani Hillian]

No, it's not a gender thing.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Shani Hillian]

No, it is not. I firmly believe that. And if I didn't know, I was surprised with both of my pregnancies. The gender. So if I had a boy, they would have gotten facials. They would have gotten their nails clipped and manicured and all of that. You don't have to be. It's so stereotypical. You know, I really think that men should upkeep themselves also.

[Brooke Devard]

Absolutely. Now you have a really pared back approach to skincare, which is really refreshing in the world where everything is being put. It's like a ten step skin care routine. It feels like you have to have that. Why is it important to you to have a simple routine?

[Shani Hillian]

Because that's your foundation. You know what I mean? Like if you have a simple routine, you can build on that. We don't need to apply so many products and you can actually do yourself a disservice if you're doing too many steps. Sometimes they're going to cancel out each other. You're going to apply a product for no reason. Like you're just wasting your money. It's not going to sink into your skin. It's not going to absorb in the way that it can if you use it, you know, by itself. So two, three products, that's all you need as the base. And then you can build every now and again, you know, doesn't have to be every day.

[Brooke Devard]

So, so what are your kind of core, core products, steps? And then I also want to hear products.

[Shani Hillian]

The cornerstone to every skincare ritual is your cleanser, period. That's where you start. That's where you're going to have the most benefits. So choosing a cleanser is very, very important so that your can really absorb the products that you put on thereafter. So that's where I start. If you're going to invest in anything, the cleanser is very important.

[Brooke Devard]

Wait, I love hearing this because I hear some people say like, the cleanser is the thing that you don't have to invest in because it's on your skin for such a short period of time. But I also find that people do not wash their face for as long as they should. I was traveling with a girlfriend. We were in Vegas. I think we were in Vacancy Usher. Anyway, we shared a hotel room. We shared a hotel room and she washed her face and it was like a. I like turned back and I was like, wait, you're done washing your face? And she was like, yeah, I just washed it. I was like, that was five seconds. You washed your face? Yeah, I just splashed water on, you know, rubbed the cleanser, used a towel. I was like, oh no, honey, you've got to wash your face for like 60 seconds.

[Shani Hillian]

You do, you absolutely do a minimum of 60 seconds. I don't think that you should go any longer than like, you know, 80 seconds. But you don't have to, you have to do a minimum of 60 seconds. And sometimes if people use a lot of makeup, if they wear a lot of makeup and they're removing it, sometimes I tell them to do 60 seconds. Yes, you. Yeah, absolutely. You oil cleanse first, then you go in with your water based cleanser and you let it sit for just 30 seconds. So you, you massage it in, you cleanse for 60 seconds and then you let it sit so that it can absorb a little bit into your skin and then you rinse. Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

And that's also kind of like a face mask in and of itself. Right?

[Shani Hillian]

Like, I know it's refreshing. It's. You're going to really feel, feel it. It's going to really sink in and you're going to feel more refreshed.

[Brooke Devard]

I love that. Now, okay, I have so many face washing questions. One I need to know, I need to know the cleansers that you think are worth it.

[Shani Hillian]

So the oil cleanser actually that I formulated, that's one in Groove. That's Every Mood. Yeah, Every Mood is the oil cleanser that duels as a moisturizer. Super lightweight. The water based one that I like though is Epilogic.

[Brooke Devard]

The green or the pink one?

[Shani Hillian]

The pink one.

[Brooke Devard]

The pink one.

[Shani Hillian]

I like the pink one. The green one is the exfoliating one, which I think is great, but you don't use that every day. And I like a lot of French brands. You know, my partner is French so I spend a lot of my time in France and I do like as a simple one. Lacroix, Posay. I like Caudalie.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, your accent's so beautiful. You're saying it properly.

[Shani Hillian]

I'm just like my 4 year olds. Like, you don't say it right, mom. So I'm trying to say it properly. Yeah, I like, I like the simple ones that you can, you know, you don't have to have expensive ones. I do like to go to the drugstore and grab the simple ones that work. Those are a few of mine and.

[Brooke Devard]

I'm not going to say it as beautifully as you, but La Roche Posay is one of those brands that has incredible products at such an accessible price point. I just, I'm always impressed.

[Shani Hillian]

Exactly. I'm always impressed too. Honestly, I love them.

[Brooke Devard]

Now this is my second washing face question. I've heard that this is a big no, no, but I do it sometimes anyway. Apparently you're not supposed to wash your face in the shower because the shower water is too hot.

[Shani Hillian]

It's too hot. Yeah. I mean, not unless you like to do lukewarm water and sometimes. Exactly. No, it's too hot. It's going to dry you out. And I find that the pressure is too hard for your skin. Your skin is so, you know, delicate on your face that if you have a high pressure just beating on your face coming down, it can cause, you know, just some sensitivity, especially if your retina is prone. So interesting at the. At the sink is best.

[Brooke Devard]

Interesting, interesting. And then while we're in the shower, let's talk about the hair care products you use. Because, I mean, people can't see. You have the most beautiful. Like people would buy wigs like this. This would be like a four. A perfect twist out. It's like the Joan Clayton. Like the perfect.

[Shani Hillian]

And I love it is.

[Brooke Devard]

It's like, it's like the perfect twist out that everyone wishes they could achieve. So I just need to know the products list.

[Shani Hillian]

So the products list. I've been loving Innersense. So I was. My hair fell out with my second daughter. I don't know what it was. My hormones were going crazy and my hair felt. Fell out completely. Like while I was pregnant. It started around five months. Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

While you were pregnant, your hair, what happened, it was coming out in clumps. Like, what did you notice?

[Shani Hillian]

Shedded. It shedded so much that I had to cut at least five inches off and I had to start completely fresh.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Shani Hillian]

And it was a lot of my hormones. It was the iron deficiency and it was just tied to my pregnancy and I just had to deal with it. But I cut it all off and I started fresh. So this is all fresh, fresh hair. And I've been really taking care of it with inner sense. And I deep condition every time I wash and do and wash. I sit under the hooded dryer for a minimum of 20 minutes.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, you're good.

[Shani Hillian]

And I try my best. It's hard. I do do scalp treatments, hot oil treatments. I swear by them still. And I use a mousse. I use the l' Oreal curl expression mousse. And then I use the I create hold innersense gel.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow. Okay. Innersense is a brand that it wasn't on my radar, but I had it. I don't know why I had it. I just had it at home and I started using it on my son who has curly hair and his hair loves it.

[Shani Hillian]

It's really good.

[Brooke Devard]

So I would imagine because your hair is so perfect that you don't put heat on it and you don't color.

[Shani Hillian]

It I do not color it. I've colored my hair many times in my life, but right now I don't color it. I don't have the time.

[Brooke Devard]

But also, honestly, I feel like we have to. And I'm someone who colors my hair. We have to be realistic about the impact to your hair health. Like it is. It's a compromise. You're compromising the health of your hair for color. It is counteract it. But like, it is going to impact.

[Shani Hillian]

It and the upkeep. I don't have time. Yeah, yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

Do you heat?

[Shani Hillian]

I do. I do do my silk presses. I do it myself. That's one thing that I'm glad. My mom and my grandmother were very hands on and me going to beauty school, I know how to properly straighten my hair without damaging it. So I do. Especially during the winter time. I don't have time for curly hair all the time. So I do. Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

That's so real. And then how. I'm curious how you feel about protective styles, because some people feel protective styles damage hair because you're not able to get to it and care for it.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah. So for me in particular, I cannot wear like box braids, individual braids. I can't wear them. My particular hair type is it's like a 3B 3C mix. I have a lot of it, but it's super fine. So I find that every time I do protective styles or braid styles, when I take them out, my hair just falls out in clumps like more than normal. I know we shed, but I spoke to my stylist about it and she's like, you just probably can't do it. You know, maybe the tension is too much on your strands. So protective styling, I think can be really great, but it can also damage your hair. In particular, for me, I can't braid my hair too much. Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

And you talked about deep conditioning every time you wash. What's. What deep conditioner do you use?

[Shani Hillian]

So I just started using Slick.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, I don't know.

[Shani Hillian]

Brand called Slick. Yeah. And I used it recently and I absolutely loved it. I was in Marseille and the summer, the beach, the sun just tore my. My hair up and it really revived my hair. I do make my own, you know, I do aloe.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Shani Hillian]

A lot. I put aloe in my hair as a pre poo and then I let it sit for a while. Sometimes I put aloe and I sit under the dryer and it just. It does wonders.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

You're really inspiring me. I think I. I used to be so good about doing, like, pre poos and, like, oiling my scalp and making masks. And then, you know, I use the kids as an excuse in my work. But you're working. You've got your own business and you've got two kids. So you're really making me, like, set my game up.

[Shani Hillian]

But, you know, it's a. It's a challenge, but I do it.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, yeah, no. And I feel like you're just such a wealth of knowledge. And we've talked about skincare, We've gotten into hair. But now I also want to get into eating, because, of course, as, like, the perfect model citizen and beauty girl, of course you eat really well, too, on top of all of this other great stuff you're doing. So food, gut, health, all of that impacts your skin. It's like, it's very correctly linked. And sometimes I want to live in this, like, false sense of security. Like, you know what? I can. I can have, like, three iced coffees back to back, no water, a cupcake, and, like, my skin's gonna look great, but, like, no. Yeah, the skin says no, it's not gonna work. So I wanna talk about how food impacts our skin. And I would love your help just, like, understanding what the microbiome is, because I keep hearing about the gut microbiome, but, like, what is it?

[Shani Hillian]

The gut microbiome is basically like, a combination of the good bacteria and the bad bacteria that balances literally the inflammation in your body. So it's directly linked to almost how we function in how we eat, how we absorb food. Our skin, aches, bones, everything. It's tied into everything. And that's the one thing that I always wanted, you know, instill in my clients. The education is that our body, like, we're not compartmentalized. Like, everything is connected, every single thing. And it does start in your gut. Everything we eat comes out into our skin. So when you have a good, healthy balance between good bacteria and bad bacteria in your stomach, because we still need to be a little acidic in our bodies to kind of, you know, ward off, you know, disease. You can't be completely alkaline. It just. We need the acid in our stomachs to help break down the food and all of that thing.

[Brooke Devard]

So I'm gonna start asking you about food, and I'm nervous. Okay, first of all, just tell me now, are you vegan?

[Shani Hillian]

No. But I was.

[Brooke Devard]

Thank God.

[Shani Hillian]

I was. I was vegetarian for 10 years, and I was vegan for two years. And you know what? My health was not that great when I was vegan. My body. I developed kidney stones because I had overproduction of oxalates from all the green juices. I was drinking the tons of kale, the spinach, like I was overloading myself with oxalates. And I developed kidney stones when I was vegan. So I. Yeah, so I gave it a try. It's not for me. I'm typically plant based, but I live with a French chef, so it's kind of hard to.

[Brooke Devard]

You got, you gotta get. So that's my. So that's one of the foods I have a question about. Yes, we always hear that dairy's bad for your skin and cheese and milk. And I am a cheese lover, so.

[Shani Hillian]

Me too.

[Brooke Devard]

Is that true? Is cheese bad for your skin?

[Shani Hillian]

You know, can be, but it's not the main culprit. You know, it depends on the kind of cheese. Me personally, I didn't realize this, but I worked with a friend of mine, Selena Ayala. She's an integrative nutritionist that I send my clients to when they need further help in that way. I did a test to see why I was so bloated and it turned out that soft cheeses do not do well in my body anymore. It ferments in my stomach and it just doesn't break down properly.

[Brooke Devard]

So that's so interesting that you learned that soft cheeses don't agree with you. What test did you do to find that out?

[Shani Hillian]

I actually did a stool test that my doctor ordered because I could not figure out why I was chronically bloated. And I did a stool test which you can get from your pcp and they test every single thing from how much inflammation is in your gut to your deficiencies and what is typically like parasites, worms, all of that. And it came back that soft cheeses were just not my jam. Like it just doesn't do well in my stomach at all.

[Brooke Devard]

What I, what I like about this story is that you went to your doctor first and got a test before getting targeted on all these Instagram ads like fix your gut debloat. Like a lot of people I think go out and buy things and try to self diagnose using, you know, Google and ChatGPT and Reddit and then like go out and buy things when what we really should do. And I know it's hard because not everyone has like the same access to medical insurance or doctors, but it really is so worth it to go to a doctor to figure out what is wrong.

[Shani Hillian]

It is. I went to my doctor and then I sought, you know, because I do like the natural alternative. So I did see my friend Selena as the integrative nutritionist, and it was, it was amazing. I think everyone needs to get a stool test to see what's going on in their gut.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. I'm like, literally, it's now the top thing. Like, I need to do it. But, but, you know, you said that you went to your doctor, but then you also went to a nutritionist. Basically, I'm saying go to someone that, that studies this.

[Shani Hillian]

That is exactly.

[Brooke Devard]

I think we so often try to just self diagnose and like struggle alone and like test things out. I'm going to ask about more foods that I like. I'm just going to selfishly just ask about things that I love baked goods. I love. I love a slice of red velvet cake. I love a muffin. I love an almond croissant. I love a carrot cake. Gosh, I love. I just love baked goods with sugar. Right. So not, not just the pure, like bread, like, I'm talking about like the really savory. Sorry, the really indulgent, sweet treats. Those are probably not great for our gut health or skin.

[Shani Hillian]

Not all the time. But I do, I do believe in balance. You know what I mean? I eat them. You know, I just, I'm. I'm fresh off a month in France and I was indulging in the mat lens and all of the little croissants, the almond croissants, the chocolate croissants. Like, I, I truly believe in balance. I don't do it all the time. And if you, it's just like anything, you don't want to overdo, exercise, you don't want to overdo anything you can indulge. I, I don't believe in being too strict. I really believe in just the balance of everything. Just like in skincare, I love going the natural route, but chemicals have their place and I do use them in practice. Sometimes people want to peel. I'll give you a pill. Sure. You know you use retinol. I do not, but I'm not against it.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay. Why don't you use it? I'm curious.

[Shani Hillian]

I'm breastfeeding still, so I don't personally use it right now, but, you know, I'll be 37 and I'm not against using retinol if I feel like my skin needs it, you know?

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. And you wrote a great article for Essence about aging and fine lines, and it was very informative. I feel like it's, at least amongst my peer group in Los Angeles, the Fact that I haven't done Botox and like, all of this stuff is, like shocking because it's like people are like, turn 25 and they start getting Botox. How do you feel about Botox and quote, unquote, anti aging treatments?

[Shani Hillian]

I love anti aging treatments, but preventative Botox? I don't know why people do it because you're. It's not there yet, so you're going to have to upkeep it the entire time. Like, no, you. It's pricey. And if you cannot, if it's not visible right now to the point where you're like, wow, this is really changing my look. You stop it. You know what I mean? I don't think, I don't think that it's necessary. And a lot of people fall for advertisement and it's not. It's not great. It's not great.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, I think it's like, it's. People, like, oversubscribe to this idea of Botox being the fountain of youth and there are just so many other things we can do to feel good and look great. Yeah. Okay. Gut health, it's something I've been thinking about a lot. I've been thinking a lot about gut health because I had a cold that turned into a sinus infection. And I tried so hard to just like wait it out. And after three weeks of just feeling horrible, I went on antibiotics, which, like, everyone knows, like, antibiotics are not, or maybe not everyone knows antibiotics. It's really like an avoid at all cost situation. But sometimes you just need to go on antibiotics and have something. Sometimes you need it. So I got my prescription, I filled it, I. I took amoxicillin. And then of course, I did the thing that we all tend to do where you just start searching online and they start to spiral. And like all of the reasons suggests that antibiotics basically destroy all of the healthy bacteria in your gut. It basically, like wipes everything out. So now I need to figure out what do I eat, what do I. What do I do to restore my gut? Sauerkraut. Okay.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah. Sauerkraut. Is it kefir? Keefe. Kefir.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Yeah. K E F I, R. Exactly. Yes.

[Shani Hillian]

That's helpful. You know, you can take a probiotic supplement, but a lot of the probiotic supplements, if you take just like a tablespoon or two of sauerkraut every day, that's going to be equal to like a supplement of probiotics. So foods. Yeah, fermented foods. And that's what I learned from, you know, my integrative nutritionist is. Fermented foods is game changer. It really helps.

[Brooke Devard]

What about kimchi?

[Shani Hillian]

Love kimchi. Highly recommend.

[Brooke Devard]

How do you eat kimchi?

[Shani Hillian]

I always pair it with, like. Like my protein. You know, like, I pair it with my protein. I don't really eat a whole lot of meat, but when I do, I just take a small amount. It can be quite spicy, depending on who makes it. I get mine locally, so it's. It's really spicy. So I try to pair it with light things like a protein, a cottage cheese, or something like that to kind of balance out the spice. But, yeah, I do eat kimchi.

[Brooke Devard]

I hear you talking a lot about balance, which I'm sure your patients really love, because I think oftentimes when we talk about diet and nutrition, there's a lot of, like, restrictive language used. Are there any rules or philosophies that have always worked for you in terms of your personal approach to food?

[Shani Hillian]

You know, I've had an interesting relationship with food because I used to be so strict when I was modeling. And, you know, this was back then, before they were like, you know, advocating for balance in that world. I never used to eat bread. You couldn't get me to eat bread. Oh, my gosh, no butter. All of that. And I met my partner, and he's like, that's all we eat in France. Are you kidding me? So he kind of. And being a chef, knowing, you know, everything that ties into food, he's like, no, that's not, you know, my balance. You know, you can have a piece, but pair it with, you know, this food. Or, you know, don't eat it at the beginning of your meal. Eat it at the very end of your meal. You know, So I learned how to incorporate bread and butter and treats into my ritual and into my daily life without overdoing it and obsessing.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

We. We also, though, survived, like, the early 2000s obsession with skinniness, which I just feel like for people that weren't around them, they really didn't understand how bad it was.

[Shani Hillian]

Like, it was so bad.

[Brooke Devard]

Terrifying. And that's why I hate. I really hate to see the way that we're kind of going back to that with. It just feels like we're back. We're back to where we started, and we never had the body positivity movement.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah. You know, that's so funny that you say that, because I recently had this discussion with my sister, and she's feeling the same way. And I just noticed that a lot of my, you know, Timeline is my. For you page was going crazy promoting, you know, you know, just excessive behavior, and I just don't believe in that at all. I don't.

[Brooke Devard]

How old were you when you started modeling?

[Shani Hillian]

So full time? I started when I was 18. I did start doing, like, Runway shows when I was 15, so.

[Brooke Devard]

In New York and.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah, in New York.

[Brooke Devard]

You know, it just. It's interesting because. So I started modeling with Ford models when I was 15 years old. I saw, like, nice teen model division. And yeah, it's crazy when you think back to, like, just going to a go see and you're 15 and, like, you're being assessed for your body, and it's like.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah, it's.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, it's very, like, young and impressionable age to start viewing yourself as, like, a physical commodity, if we're going to be honest about what it is.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's so true. That's really true.

[Brooke Devard]

But you're past it and thriving and obviously have something and found the balance. Yeah. I want to talk about body care. I feel like I'm, like, loving indulging in different body care treatments, but I want you to also do some myth busting for me because I keep hearing about lymphatic drainage and dry brushing. And I know it's real. I know it's real, but I want to understand, like, what does dry brushing actually do and what's the right way to do it?

[Shani Hillian]

Not only does it help exfoliate your body, it does kind of detox your body in a beautiful way. I think that people should open up and massage their lymph nodes first before they dry brush so that you can probably detox your body.

[Brooke Devard]

Where are our lymph nodes? Like, where are they?

[Shani Hillian]

You have them behind your ears. If you put, like, a V sign and you put them under your earlobe. Yeah, they're right there. Your collarbone, your armpits, your groin area, and behind your knees.

[Brooke Devard]

Interesting. Okay, and so you massage those areas before you dry brush.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah, you can even just do, like, 10 seconds. You don't have to do it long, but you literally just want to open them up just a little bit so that when you dry brush or you lymphatic drain the waste, the fluid, the excess fluid can be properly, you know, basically detox out of your body.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay. Interesting. For people listening to this that are like, I've never massaged my lymphs, my lymph nodes, and I feel fine. I don't feel like I have a bunch of, like, toxic waste in my body.

[Shani Hillian]

Like how that's great, you know.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah. So is it something that, like, is it something we can all benefit from but isn't mandatory? Yeah.

[Shani Hillian]

Your body is doing amazing things generally. But if you're feeling like, wow, I'm like really stagnant, I feel tired, I feel I'm getting sick all of the time, or my skin isn't as vibrant as it once was, or I'm having some inflammation in my face or in my body and I don't know where it's coming from. I always tell people to try and do, you know, a lymphatic drainage session. You never know what's happening in your body. I mean, we're consuming so much and it depends on your environment and what your intake is and you know, like, it has to go somewhere. Yeah. And we need to flush it out properly so that our bodies can do what it needs to do. And we get stagnant, you know, we. There's stagnant energy everywhere.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. What about other paths for detoxing, like sweating?

[Shani Hillian]

Love. I tell people, if you want a good glow, go work out for a little bit. You know what I mean? Get. Bust a sweat session, go into an infrared sauna. You know what I mean? Like, those are really, really helpful. And every time I feel like my skin is like, I notice that I'm not working out as much or I'm not, you know, sweating as much.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, no, it's such a good point. I feel like. Yeah, when you sweat a lot, your skin just looks so good.

[Shani Hillian]

It's the oxygen. It's the blood flow.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Shani Hillian]

The oxygen that's pumping into your skin cells so that you can properly repair your skin, rejuvenate your skin, build more collagen. It's all tied into one another.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, that makes so much sense. If someone's listening and they want to get a facial from you, where do they go?

[Shani Hillian]

So right now I am going back actually to start part time post baby. My baby's eight months now, so I'm getting my feet wet.

[Brooke Devard]

Same with mine. Well, actually, no, my daughter.

[Shani Hillian]

Both kids are literally like the same ages.

[Brooke Devard]

Wait, both of them?

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah, my, my daughter is four and a half and my, my oldest and then my youngest is eight. Eight months.

[Brooke Devard]

Wait, we have parallel lives. Well, okay, G. Just for nine months, but yeah, I personally love the age gap. Didn't you, don't you love the age?

[Shani Hillian]

I love it, love it. And I. This is so helpful and so great.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Shani Hillian]

I don't know what I would do if I had two under two or two under three. Oh, my God.

[Brooke Devard]

I know. Well, listen, every. I feel like everyone, everyone manages whatever the age gap is, but I think I, I think so many people, like really push themselves to have their kids really close together. We were all at the airport recently. Mavi was literally, like pushing Jade in her stroller through the airport. We had the bags. I was like, yeah, you're like, old enough now that you can be an active participant in the family 1000%.

[Shani Hillian]

That's exactly what Anais does to her little sister.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Okay, so you're getting back into it postpartum, so. Yes. So where, where can people find you now?

[Shani Hillian]

So people can find me at Carrie Lindsay Beauty. It's in Fort Greene, Brooklyn.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay.

[Shani Hillian]

And that's where I do facials. So they can book via my Instagram or you can go directly to Caroline's Beauty and book there.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay. I love it. I love it. So you are an active facialist, but then you've also decided, I also want to start my own brand. What did you see was missing from the skincare market that made you say, okay, I really want to launch In Groove Balance.

[Shani Hillian]

Honestly, just simple and plain balance, Multi purpose, multi beneficial products that you don't need 10 steps to do. You know, I was traveling and I had so many products in my bag because I'm like, oh, I'm going for a month. I'm going to need this exfoliant. I need my moisturizer, I need my oil, I need my cleanser. It was all of these separate things, so I'm like, oh, how can I simplify it? And I was, you know, thinking about it because when I was pregnant with my oldest, my skin was freaking out, as it does sometimes, and nothing works. Even my general things didn't work. So I like, maybe I can do an oil cleanser, which I highly recommend everyone do an oil cleanser. I love oil. I think it's great for every skin type, even. Even if you're acne prone. I wanted to formulate something that would be beneficial and multi purpose so that I can minimize the amount of shit that was in my bag. Yeah. And I just wanted it to be simple with multi nutrients. And I just started working with a chemist and we got it done.

[Brooke Devard]

I love it. I love it. And I know you said your partner is French, but I feel like there's something like, like really chic about being minimal, you know, it's like when you're like out on the town and you've just got like a little tiny bag, it's like you just feel, you know, or like you go into a bathroom, there's just like a few pro, like a handful of a few nice products. It's like so chic.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah. And I, you know, I go and I see, you know, his mom and, and she has like four products on her shelf and she's, you know what I mean? Like, and I'm like, she looks great. So I just minimize it. Yeah, exactly.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, exactly. You talked about the oil cleanser and how everyone can benefit from oil. I think people with oily skin immediately freak out. But I think, you know, people, you know, we just had Sophie Pavitt on the podcast and she talked about non comedogenic oils. And so, yeah, how should people navigate figuring out what oils are good for their skin even if they have oily skin?

[Shani Hillian]

So I always tell folks that you don't want to just slab on like a single product. You know, don't just put on almond oil on your face. The more oils that are in a formulation, the lighter the oil will be. So choose, you know, and this is based on research that's everywhere. You know, you can see what oils are non comedogenic and go from there. Personally have all non comedogenic ingredients in my product because I wanted it to cater to every skin type. You have some oil cleansers that cater to dry skin, that only cater to combination skin. So you have to make sure you know what your skin type is and then shop based on that. And a lot of people don't even know their skin types, which it changes. Great way to figure that out. Take a gentle water based cleanser cleanse. Wait 30 minutes, don't put anything on your face. Wait 30 minutes. Now if your T zone is a little oily to touch, is it? If it's looking shiny and your cheeks are dry, then you have combination skin. If you're just dry all around. If you're ashy, if you're flaky, you have dry skin. If it's not doing anything, if it looks pretty normal, then you have normal skin. And if it looks oily, if you're a little greasy after 30 minutes without putting anything on, then your oily skin. So that's a general way to figure out what your skin type is so that you can properly, you know, know how to navigate that.

[Brooke Devard]

And then you know what I find really interesting how sometimes your skin can become oilier when your skin is dry. So you know when you go on a plane and like you get off the plane and your skin is like so like, oily and shiny. All of a sudden, you're like, what just happened? It's like. Like, oh, because your skin was so dehydrated.

[Shani Hillian]

Dehydrated.

[Brooke Devard]

Then your skin became oily for sure.

[Shani Hillian]

So that's where hydration comes in. That's why they're like, you know, I don't mind the sheet masks on the plane, you know, because it does, you know, hydrate your skin in a nice way that is going to counterbalance the oil in the. In the water production in your skin. You can also spray a hydrating mistake, you know, which is one that I formulated as well. It's a sea essence. It's a mineral essence that you can spray any time of the day, no matter where you are, to kind of keep your skin nice and healthy and hydrated and balanced.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay. I love it. And how did you source the sea essence? Like, that must have been a process.

[Shani Hillian]

Oh, my God. The main ingredient is from an island off of France out of. You know, France is my. My second home. So I worked with chemists who is. Does formulations in France also. So she came up and she said, this will be perfect. So we started playing around. It took months and months and months, and I wanted aloe in it, which is an ode to Jamaica and my. My childhood always having aloe around. Super hydrating, super calming. And we formulated this beautiful product.

[Brooke Devard]

I love it. I love it. Well, I'm always so curious to hear from busy women like you. So you're a mom, you're a facialist, you're a business owner. How do you relax? How do you find time for yourself?

[Shani Hillian]

Very hard. It's very hard. Being a working mom is truly the hardest job.

[Brooke Devard]

Girl, don't I know it.

[Shani Hillian]

Oh, my goodness. It's super hard. But you know what? I. I have this. Me and my partner have an understanding that I need my Saturday mornings to do whatever I need to do. You take the kids. If my daughter doesn't have soccer or dance, you take the kids, and I'm gonna do a yoga class. I'm gonna do something. I don't even care if I'm staring at a wall. It's my time, and that's what I'm going to do for myself.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Yes. So your partner bring. Taking the kids out of the home is, like, the best thing ever.

[Shani Hillian]

The best. The best.

[Brooke Devard]

I know. I feel like when moms are like, oh, I want to check into a hotel, I'm like, no, I want to be home while no one else is home.

[Shani Hillian]

Exactly.

[Brooke Devard]

That's really What I want. That's the luxury experience. I want home by myself.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah, exactly. That's. It's perfect for me. Exactly.

[Brooke Devard]

That's so real. And then final question. When do you feel most beautiful?

[Shani Hillian]

I do feel most beautiful when I'm wind down at night. When after my skincare routine, after the kids are in bed and I'm by my bedside. I feel most beautiful when I'm stripped down to the bear. And I can just be me, you know, I can just be me with no makeup, with no anything, and I'm not in need.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Shani Hillian]

Yeah, I'm with myself.

[Brooke Devard]

I can absolutely, absolutely relate to that. Thank you so much, Shani. I'm. I need to try the In Groove products. Like, they sound so my alley. I'm so excited to try. And when I'm in New York, I'd love to see you for a facial.

[Shani Hillian]

Oh, absolutely. Would love to have you.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you so much. So great talking to you.

[Shani Hillian]

Thank you.

[Brooke Devard]

If you're listening on Spotify, make sure to leave a comment. I love looking at those. This week's episode had no video, but next week I'm in studio and there's great, great video. So make sure you're subscribed to Naked Beauty podcast on YouTube as well. Thank you all so much for listening. Also, I always get DM saying like, what was that moisturizer she was talking about? What was that facial device she was talking about? All of the products are linked in the show notes so you can add explore all of the great products recommended in this episode there and for every episode we've had. All right, thank you all so much for listening. I'll be back next week with a new episode.

[Shani Hillian]

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[Brooke Devard]

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[Shani Hillian]

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[Shani Hillian]

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[Shani Hillian]

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[Shani Hillian]

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