Lynn Whitfield & Grace Gibson on Beauty, Legacy & Love | Mother’s Day 2026

Summary

Naked Beauty – Mother’s Day 2026: Lynn Whitfield & Grace Gibson on Beauty, Legacy & Love
Host: Brooke DeVard | Publication Date: May 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In a deeply personal and celebratory Mother’s Day episode, Brooke DeVard welcomes iconic actress Lynn Whitfield and her daughter, rock-and-roll singer Grace Gibson. This multi-generational conversation explores the complexity and dynamism of Black beauty, identity, creative legacies, and navigating love—from mother-daughter bonds to romantic stories behind career-defining moments. Rich with intergenerational wisdom, humorous stories, and candid reflections, the episode illuminates the intricate ways beauty, artistry, and familial ties shape life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family & Beauty Foundations

Growing Up Surrounded by Glamour

• Lynn describes Baton Rouge roots: a family of bold, expressive Southern women, each with unique takes on beauty. Her mother’s meticulous routines (including weekly lymphatic drainage before its trendiness), and the flair of aunts, painted her childhood with femininity and boldness.
  • "My mother was very conscious of beauty and very systematic… Extremely glamorous. One of my early remembrances is her going every week to see Mrs. Watson... she kills me every time. But it was lymphatic drainage." – Lynn ([02:10])

Early Self-Image: Affirmation, Complexity, and Culture

• Beauty was initially affirmed in Lynn’s family, but self-perception grew complicated when subjected to societal standards and racial dynamics.
  • "As a little girl, I didn't think about it really, but I had an idea that I was adorable." – Lynn ([04:10])
• Grace reflects on inheriting a family culture with intense attention to aesthetics and formality, noting both pride and pressures within a Southern Black lineage—a world of “natural hair drama” and rigorous standards even as a child in entertainment.
  • "It's like your identity and part of your culture. These Louisiana Southern belles." – Grace ([06:10])

Schooling & Navigating Identity

• Grace discusses feeling “different” and grappling with beauty ideals attending Spence, a predominantly white school: pressures for straight hair, navigating micro- and macro-aggressions, and the journey toward self-acceptance.
  • "I think I was always affirmed by my mom...But going to a place like Spence, very white, tre-caucastic... there were just micro things and some macro things that you just felt a little different." – Grace ([06:52])
• Lynn’s own experience: Initially schooled in Black Seventh Day Adventist settings for quality education, then choosing public school for diversity, recounting being on “another kind of frontline” as one of the early Black students during integration.
  • "Sort of interfered with my feeling beautiful when you're in a classroom... kids are so silly. And this is how now brown cow... Crackers will crumble." – Lynn ([10:43], [11:06])

2. Creative Legacy & Formation

Howard University & A World of Expression

• Lynn’s arrival at Howard ushered in a thrilling, liberating exposure to diverse Black aesthetics, from conservative Southern style to bold Afros, piercings, and holistic hair care.
  • "To see this array of expression from black people in what they felt made them beautiful... was so exciting for me. It was a whole new world of aesthetics." – Lynn ([12:28])
• Personal experiments: cutting her hair short, embracing an afro, but facing pushback from her more traditional mother. These early acts of self-definition continued as a parent—letting Grace explore bold patterns and rock-and-roll tastes from a young age.
  • "I knew that my expression of beauty, not glamour, but beauty, was going to be different than my mother's." – Lynn ([14:45])

Mother-Daughter Bond: Teamwork and Friendship

• Lynn and Grace describe their relationship as not just familial but best-friend-level—deep, honest, and based on mutual respect and support. Grace credits this to being included in big life decisions, nightly routines, and being treated as a teammate.
  • "We're really each other's best friends... if I'm being honest, the tea is that I haven't seen the fro..." – Grace ([13:47], [42:53])

3. Shopping, Ritual, and Iconic Moments

Fashion & Shopping as Bonding (and Survival Art)

• Generational traditions of shopping—not just for style, but for resilience and identity—are recounted with humor: mothers shopping during labor, lessons in bargain-hunting and the “thrill of the hunt,” and early luxury fashion memories.
  • "My mother left the hospital when my brother was born to stop to go shopping because there was a sale..." – Brooke ([20:23])
  • "My mom's water was breaking and she was trying on Ferragamo..." – Grace ([20:35])

Behind the Josephine Baker Biopic

• Lynn tells the high-pressure, emotionally taxing audition for Josephine Baker—a process that stretched over seven months and ultimately brought her and Grace’s father (the film’s director) together. She speaks of channeling Josephine’s glamour by investing in period-correct fashion for screen tests, and of not allowing romance to distract from her groundbreaking, all-consuming role.

  • "Because my audition was better than everybody else's." – Lynn ([26:17])
  • "I just felt that Josephine Spirit was very present in the shooting of this film." – Lynn ([26:29])
  • "We didn't experience true intimacy... because I couldn't mess up, I couldn't betray her power and get all soapy and vulnerable..." – Lynn ([31:25])

• Grace, who watched the film only in college, shares how emotionally layered it was to witness her parents falling in love on screen and to see her late father’s artistic vision.

  • "I'm watching my father passed away when I was 12. I'm watching his vision... And then I'm seeing my mother come into her own in such a grand way and channel... like, without [Josephine Baker], I wouldn't be alive." – Grace ([33:20])

4. Affirmation, Identity & Radical Honesty

Affirming Black & Blended Identities

• Grace, born to parents of varied backgrounds, articulates a strong Black identity, refusing to be boxed by “mixed” or “biracial” classifications, and emphasizes honoring all cultural parts of herself.

  • "Yes, I am black of a biracial variety. But black comes first. It's like multicultural comes first." – Grace ([50:48])

• Emphasis on affirming children’s identity at home, navigating American racial constructs, the messy “caste” system in other countries, and celebrating the beauty within the diversity of Blackness.

  • "There should be no discernment you can choose to identify more strongly with, but you have to love all of who you are..." – Lynn ([51:47])

Motherhood, Working Moms & Guilt

• Both Lynn and Brooke discuss the challenges—and sometimes guilt—of pursuing ambitious careers while parenting, hoping that honesty, openness, and inclusion in decisions builds resilient, loving children.
  • "If you feel less than in your space, how are you gonna go out there and feel beautiful?" – Grace ([17:03])
  • "As long as you continue to include them... There will be no lacking of love." – Lynn ([47:06])

5. The Craft, Honesty & Support in Creative Pursuits

• Neither Lynn nor her parents came from artistic families that encouraged a creative career, but support came via inspiration and spiritual conviction.
  • "They weren't helpful. So being an independent artist, what...I mean, it takes a lot of courage to do it..." – Lynn ([36:03])
• Grace credits her mother’s radical honesty, high standards, and clear-eyed love for her own drive and craft as an artist, emphasizing the importance of grit and hard work over blind encouragement.
  • "She keeps it 100... she's gonna give it to me straight." – Grace ([54:51])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[My mother] was extremely glamorous... very conscious of beauty and very systematic about it." – Lynn ([02:10])
• "Did I feel beautiful growing up? I don't know if growing up was about feeling beautiful. I think...you then begin to get the tools that allow you to find that within yourself." – Grace ([06:52])
• "I wanted to go to that high school because I didn't want to be in a very sheltered environment." – Lynn ([09:55])
• "I saw [Grace] be rebellious about her beauty... I saw her want to normalize herself." – Lynn ([07:28])
• "I wish now at this point in my life I had such strong creative feelings like that... I felt invincible, I could do, I had the energy, everything to make it happen." – Lynn, on channeling Josephine Baker ([26:29])
• "It was so exciting because...to see this array of expression from black people in what they felt made them beautiful..." – Lynn ([12:28])
• "The greatest gift that Grace can give me is to be all of who she’s meant to be... there's not going to be anything that will give me more than the fullness of her life. Because then I really did the thing." – Lynn ([59:20])
• "The moment they brought [Grace] to me, I just first fell in love... I knew she was supposed to be here, and I knew we were supposed to be together." – Lynn ([40:29])
• "She keeps it 100... she's going to give it to me straight, and I think that's super important." – Grace ([54:51])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Early Experiences of Beauty (Lynn’s childhood): [02:06–04:00]
• Did you feel beautiful growing up? (Grace): [04:39–07:28]
• Schooling, Diversity & Identity (Integration stories): [09:10–11:06]
• Howard University & Finding Expression: [11:40–13:36]
• Mother-Daughter Bond, Different Approaches: [14:45–17:12]
• Shopping Stories & Family Lore: [19:28–25:18]
• The Josephine Baker Biopic: Getting the Role: [25:22–30:13]
• Parental Support for Artistic Careers: [35:00–36:14]
• Birth, Legacy, and Spiritual Experience: [38:50–41:17]
• Affirmation, Mixed Identity, and Self-Definition: [50:35–54:10]
• Advice for Mothers & Daughters, Radical Honesty: [54:20–56:33]
• Beauty Products & Rituals (tips & favorites): [59:43–65:20]
• When Do You Feel Most Beautiful? (personal reflections): [66:48–68:44]

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Beauty and Self-Care Favorites

Grace Gibson

• Linda Ross (L.A. esthetician): Deep, thorough facials, colostrum mask, and propolis moisturizer ([59:50])
• Mixes fresh juices and applies to face ([61:00])
• Double-toothed Wedad brush for curl detangling ([62:04])
• Advice: “You do not control the curls…ride the curl wave, babes. Don’t rush it.”

Lynn Whitfield

• African soap and Korean exfoliating pads for daily skin renewal ([62:28])
• Bathing, steaming, and full-body exfoliation for natural glow ([64:28])
• Minimalism: Ponds moisturizer like her mother ([63:43])
• Ecodiva (South Africa): All-natural line with shimmering and mineral-rich products ([65:20])

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Standout Mother-Daughter Moments

• Nightly lullabies and staying connected during work travel: Grace recounts how Lynn left her recorded songs while away, reinforcing closeness despite industry demands. ([45:41])
• Collaborative problem-solving: Big life moves discussed as a 'team.' ([46:44])
• Radical honesty & high standards: “Only do [music] if you can’t breathe without it.” ([56:01])
• Celebrating uniqueness: Grace’s “Blended Grace” project, documentary of her multicultural life ([52:27])

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On Feeling Beautiful

• Lynn: In humid, island environments, near water—natural, unforced beauty ([66:48])
• Grace: Onstage, in the flow of live performance, when all self-judgment falls away ([68:40])

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Takeaways

This episode is a testament to matriarchal wisdom, the evolving definitions of beauty and Blackness, and the necessity of honesty and self-celebration. It offers solace and inspiration for mothers, daughters, artists, and anyone navigating multilayered identities—underscoring the power of unconditional love, radical self-expression, and intergenerational support.

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Memorable send-off:
"Just the two of us, we can make it if we try..." – Grace and Lynn ([69:20])

Transcript

[Grace Gibson]

Just the two of us we can make it if we try Just the two of us.

[Brooke Devard]

Hello. Hello. This is Brooke Devard and you're listening to the Naked Beauty Podcast. And if you're joining us on YouTube, you are watching the Naked Beauty Podcast. And today is a very special Mother's Day episode of Naked Beauty. I am joined by Lynn Whitfield and Grace Gibson and I'm going to give. I mean, they really need no introduction, but I'm going to give you some insight into their incredible careers. Lynn Whitfield is an Emmy award winning, seven time NAACP Image Award winning and Golden Globe nominated actress. Recently she was awarded the NBAF Cultural Icon Award, a most fitting accolade for her excellence across film, television and stage. From the imitable Josephine Baker, criminal mastermind Alicia to vengeful Brandy, Lynn Whitfield dominates. Lynn has created a legacy of portraying complex and powerful women who, who shapes storytelling in Hollywood and beyond. Grace Gibson, her daughter is a rock and roll artist forging her own path in music. A graduate of Berklee College of Music, also a graduate of Spence, where we first met, Grace regularly entrances audiences at venues like Paisley park and the Apollo Music Cafe. Grace has committed herself to reclaiming the legacy of black musicians that pioneered rock and roll in her own distinct way. So excited to have you all on Naked Beauty.

[Lynn Whitfield]

We're so excited to be here with you.

[Brooke Devard]

Finally, finally.

[Grace Gibson]

This is.

[Brooke Devard]

You all have. I've been begging you all to come on this podcast for how many years now?

[Grace Gibson]

At least 3.

[Brooke Devard]

At least 3.

[Grace Gibson]

At least 3. But I'm an alum.

[Brooke Devard]

You are an alum. An early guest of Naked Beauty. So happy Mother's Day. This is my Mother's Day episode. So everyone listening to this is in that kind of mind state. And as I'm looking at the questions, even some of the questions say Lynn, and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's Ms. Whitfield. Like, I feel like I can't even call because since I've known you, I've never called you Lynn in my life. I'm like, can I call you Lynn? Is that allowed?

[Lynn Whitfield]

Would you please?

[Brooke Devard]

Okay. Okay. Well, Lynn, you grew up in Baton Rouge.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

What was it like for you growing up? And what were your early experiences of beauty?

[Lynn Whitfield]

Oh, my God.

[Grace Gibson]

My.

[Lynn Whitfield]

My mother was very conscious of beauty and very systematic about it. Extremely glamorous. One of my early remembrances of mom is her going every week to see Mrs. Watson. And Mrs. Watson, what we now know was a lymphatic drainage specialist from what she did she'd say, oh, that woman, she kills me every time. But it was lymphatic drainage. She didn't have the name.

[Grace Gibson]

Didn't she call it her exercises?

[Lynn Whitfield]

And that was her exercises.

[Brooke Devard]

I love it.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Mom was a glamour girl and all of her sisters, their own brand of beauty, of expression and, you know, Louisiana, just all mixed up. So Aunt Lane had flaming red hair and mom had black hair. Later with this gray streak love. Hetty was the bohemian of the crew and they all had these expressions of.

[Grace Gibson]

And Shirley.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And Aunt Shirley was more conservative and sort of a bronze babe, you know, beautiful legs and all that. My early impressions also, because I was small and there was so many women around, I would just see all these petticoats and pencil skirts. You know, from my vantage point to this day, I'm a petticoat girl, you know, and the akas and this and that. And so many parties at my grandparents home. So it was very feminine and bold expression.

[Brooke Devard]

Did you feel beautiful growing up?

[Lynn Whitfield]

I thought I was pretty cute.

[Brooke Devard]

So it was affirmed, like in your household you were made to feel beautiful

[Lynn Whitfield]

intermittently in my very younger years, very much so. And later all of that became more complex and different kinds of programming and information that. That came into the fold. And also I think when you start looking at yourself in comparison to the rest of the world. But as a little girl, I didn't think about it really, but I had an idea that I was adorable.

[Brooke Devard]

Grace, I'm so curious for you. I don't think I've heard from you. Did you feel beautiful growing up?

[Grace Gibson]

Well, I want to throw back a little bit because to what mom was just speaking about the DNA of our family. I think the artistic, creative, aesthetic DNA of our family is very strong. So there are so many memories that I have of my grandmother, like us going natural with my grandma. Like she. It was a no. She wanted to move to, I think Mexico at some point. But she's like, oh, but baby, who's gonna do my perm? You know what I mean? All the humidity.

[Brooke Devard]

Right, right.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Of Black Sandfield.

[Grace Gibson]

And I went natural, like, right. Yeah, truly. I went natural right after college, like during college. And I would go into Baton Rouge a lot. And I was moving to New Orleans and my grandma was like, baby, please brush the hair, Lord Jesus. It's like the most dramatic, but I think it's so ingrained in us and we all kind of interpret it differently, you know, but extremely, like an extreme attention to detail. I remember when I was in my first movie, Black Nativity, My uncle Peppa, her brother was sending emails of hair references for my red carpet debut.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow. And how old were you at this point?

[Grace Gibson]

I was like 20.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay. But he was like, you're gonna get. You're early in your career, but you're

[Grace Gibson]

gonna get it right 100%. Or just waking up in the middle of the night because he saw me e. With a knife and fork in a way that was not correct when I was like seven. At Spence, I think those things don't

[Lynn Whitfield]

help you feel beautiful, but I'm interested to hear.

[Grace Gibson]

I don't know if it helps you feel. I'm just thinking back. Everything that you're talking about is just making me. The petticoats, everything. We had a very. Our family cares about that. But I think it's a deeper thing. It's like your identity and part of your culture. These Louisiana Southern belles. But did I feel beautiful growing up? I think I was always affirmed by my mom that I was. But I think going to a place like Spence, very white, tre caucastic, you know, so like, there were just micro things and some macro things that you just felt a little different.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Grace Gibson]

And you wanted your hair straight or you wanted something else, you know, but early in. And I think it was when we moved to California for a while that I began to really get stronger in my identity and embrace, like, my big forehead, my long hair, all that stuff like that. I mean, my curly hair and the frizz and. Yeah. So did I feel beautiful growing up? I don't know. I don't know if growing up was about feeling beautiful. I think growing up, you then begin to get the tools that allow you to find that within yourself.

[Lynn Whitfield]

One thing that I observed in Grace somewhere spent into the master school, I saw her be rebellious about her beauty.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I saw her want to normalize herself. I don't know if it's.

[Brooke Devard]

I would say that I observed. I can think back to seeing you at Spence, and it was very like, headband cable knit sweater. And now I see you as like, very kind of like rock and roll. Like, you're. You're. The way you express yourself through your beauty choices and your fashion choices, I feel like has a lot more edge to it than probably you were allowed to express when we were in such a, like, suffocating environment.

[Grace Gibson]

Yeah.

[Lynn Whitfield]

You all both have very strong opinions about that.

[Grace Gibson]

But I do remember, like, making little. You know, there were those micro. So just for reference, everybody, we went to school, like, elementary school together.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

And so Brooke was a little older and much like, so cool. I was like, she's that girl. She's so cool to be with you. It gave me something to look up to. Cause, no offense. Love y'. All. Y' all were not giving Brooke Devar in my grade. Okay. It wasn't giving that. It wasn't giving Hannah Broffman. It wasn't giving Brooke Devar. I had to look up to see. Hilarious. I was like, okay, they're a vibe. But I remember little things. Cause we had to wear the skirt. We had to wear a uniform. But the shoes you picked.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

Your accessories. I was a little rebellious in my accessories. I was like, oh, I'm going with the all. You know those pumas. You like those ones that are with the Velcro love. All pink.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

Okay. Or like, I had the Converse that were like, boots, little things like that. You used to wear the moccasin, the mini tongue. Oh, my gosh.

[Brooke Devard]

With the fringe. Your memory.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Grace Gibson]

I was like, that's a look.

[Brooke Devard]

Did you, Lynn, have these concerns about sending your daughter to a majority white school? And was that your experience, like, when you went to school, Louisiana. Was it racially diverse?

[Lynn Whitfield]

No. Early on, I went to a Seven Day Adventist school because that was the best school for children who were not white. For black kids. It gave you the best foundations. Later, they wanted to send me to a private school, St. Joseph's Academy, and I wanted to go to public school. I pushed.

[Grace Gibson]

Talk about rebellious.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Robert E. Lee High School, which is now called Liberty High School.

[Grace Gibson]

Ha ha.

[Brooke Devard]

And you wanted to go to that high school because it was more diverse?

[Lynn Whitfield]

I wanted to go to that high school because I didn't want to. I didn't want to be in a very sheltered environment.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I wasn't. It wasn't about race. It was just about more diversity in every way.

[Brooke Devard]

In every way.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And so that's the choice I made. I don't know. Maybe I would go to St. Joseph's if I had to do it over again, but I don't. I. I don't think so. I think I did what I was. What. What my spirit was telling me I should do.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

I mean, mom, not to. We don't do numbers in this family, okay? We're not talking age. Like, who cares? But wasn't segregation like you were?

[Lynn Whitfield]

Well, I mean, it was at a time when. When I went to Robert E. Lee High School, it was like, in the second or third year that it was all integrated. Integrated.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, wow.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And so I was on another kind of frontline that I Did not expect, you know, And I think that in a way sort of interfered with my feeling beautiful when you're in a classroom and, you know, like, you know, kids are so silly. And this is how now brown cow and like, what in the world?

[Grace Gibson]

What?

[Lynn Whitfield]

And my retort was, crackers will crumble.

[Grace Gibson]

I love it.

[Brooke Devard]

Quick with it.

[Grace Gibson]

Crackers won't crumble or they will crumble.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I mean, it was just like. So I think that, you know, that kind of programming that comes from, you know, racial encounters subliminally, you know, says, oh, I'm not that standard of beauty.

[Brooke Devard]

Right.

[Lynn Whitfield]

But I mean, we don't even need to give it importance anymore because now we know.

[Brooke Devard]

Now we know and now it's true.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Absolutely.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

You're the blueprint. You're one of the blueprints.

[Brooke Devard]

Well, I mean, black women, right? I mean, it's just. So when you went to Howard University and you got to be around all. And you're third generation Howard University, okay,

[Lynn Whitfield]

on both sides, how did that feel

[Brooke Devard]

to be in this environment where you're seeing all of these different people and styles?

[Lynn Whitfield]

It was so exciting. It was so exciting because I was coming to Howard from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, very Southernly conservative black young woman from a professional family. So I remember going to my first movement class and people had, you know, all kinds of piercings and afros and all of that. And I had on rose pink leotard, matching, tight chic and well. Oh, and you say chic, of course.

[Brooke Devard]

I love that.

[Lynn Whitfield]

But I was so cons. I was much more conservative and sort of pulled together, you know, like matching. And to see this array of expression from black people in what they felt made them beautiful and how they adorned themselves was so exciting for me.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

It was a whole new world of aesthetics.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

That and the art scene. I was with the DC Black Repertory Company as well, and completely different. I mean, bell bottoms, the platforms, the men with ponytails. And I had not seen that. And, you know, it was the first time women were, you know, oh, my sister, you know, you have to use coconut oil and, you know, Jasmine. And, you know, it was all so different, right? This different holistic approach to what, you know, how to seek beauty.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yeah. So it was very exciting.

[Brooke Devard]

Did you have any experiments with beauty during that time? Did you try new things with your hair? Did you?

[Lynn Whitfield]

I cut my hair all off and had an afro this long.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow. Grace, have you seen these pictures?

[Grace Gibson]

So just also a reference point is we're best friends, love. This is my bestie. I mean, quickly If I cross a line, she is purely my mother. You know what I mean?

[Lynn Whitfield]

But I cross that line, she's purely my daughter.

[Grace Gibson]

Yes. But we're really each other's best friends. And so, if I'm being honest, the tea is that I haven't seen the fro, but I've seen her wedding pictures from her first wedding where her grandmother. My grandmother, her mother had her put a turban over the fro.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I think that this, though they thought they made me feel like I was the most adorable as a little girl. As my aesthetic started changing, I think it was really undermined by my. Particularly my mother's sensibility of what beautiful was. Right. So my headpiece completely covered my small Afro. Yes. And it was really tiny.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And so that was difficult. Sure, it was difficult. But I knew that my expression of beauty, not glamour, but beauty, was going to be different than my mother's, which was very, very inspired by, you know, Western culture and Western white culture. And it wasn't that I'm not a very Afrocentric person, but I knew that it would be different, you know, that my sensibility would be different. And so when Grace came along, I knew. I knew that something about her was rock and roll. So my personal.

[Brooke Devard]

How soon did you have this sense of who she was?

[Lynn Whitfield]

I believe around two and a half, three.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Because one thing I always believed, and I didn't know how to, because Grace was, you know, unfortunately a child of divorce, as was I, and I never wanted to create that.

[Brooke Devard]

Why do you say unfortunately, though?

[Lynn Whitfield]

Well, I say unfortunately because it would be better to have had Brian and myself, her dad and her mother, to have made the wisest choices of partnership. Right. And perhaps we did, you know, we fell on. In love on the tail end of Josephine Baker. And he was a director.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

But I don't know, it was something in her spirit that was kind of rebellious and kind of fun early on. And so I never put her in just those little, you know, little.

[Brooke Devard]

Just the lace dresses.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Well, yes, but it was an expression of her own. It was mixed patterns and all of that and just, like, a little bit more bold. And I just never thought that she was that person.

[Grace Gibson]

She had me in, like, leggings that had polka dots or stripes and like a turtleneck.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Like polka dots and stripes.

[Grace Gibson]

And polka dots and stripes. Yes. But then my British. I'm sorry, Mommy. I didn't mean to cut you off. My British family, when we go see them, I think there's a lot of power to beauty, too. Especially being who we are.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And I knew how to do that. Suitable, but still herself.

[Grace Gibson]

Can I hype you up? One thing I've learned from my mom is how we move through the world is so important in the power of beauty and expression. And also how we live at home.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

Cause, like, we've lived so many places. Sometimes I'm like, okay, we're just passing through. And she came to see my dorm at Columbia when I went to Columbia for a year and a half. And she was like, girl, no wonder you're depressed. I was going through a hard time. She's like, no wonder you're depressed. You're living like a heathen. She's like. And then she looked in my friend's room who had these posters and drapes, and she was like, I'm competitive. This is effed up. We need to get your room together. Because she was like, how. If you feel. If you feel less than in your space, how are you gonna go out there and feel beautiful? That was one thing.

[Brooke Devard]

Good point.

[Lynn Whitfield]

It's hard.

[Grace Gibson]

And then another thing was, when moving through the Eurocentric world, the power of, like, my British family will always be like, oh, well, your mother always had you looking fabulous. You know, like, there's a pride in how we comport ourselves and that we're put together. And so even she knew there's not a one size fits all. It's like sometimes you funk it up a little bit, and sometimes you wear an A line skirt. And sometimes you wear.

[Brooke Devard]

There is an art to knowing how to show up for what occasion. Right?

[Grace Gibson]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And I don't think I would call it, because appropriate under the word appropriate is all kinds of. You have to be correct, you have to fit in. But I think it's finding out how to meet the moment as yourself. Yes, but meet the moment that you're walking into.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And sometimes it's a conundrum because, you know, we have many, many examples of, you know, things that just don't fit the personality or fit the body or, you know, like what? And I'm much better. My personality is much better. My inner beauty is much better when I feel comfortable.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, I agree.

[Lynn Whitfield]

So it's being comfortable in meeting the moment that you're comfortable to be your best self.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Grace, growing up, I'm sure you saw your mom getting ready for lots of fabulous events. And I just know that the vanity just had all of these beautiful lotions and potions. And what were your early memories of seeing your mom just adorning herself in that beauty? Practice.

[Grace Gibson]

Okay. One of my earliest memories in life is being at Saks. It was Saks. Right?

[Lynn Whitfield]

This is shopping.

[Grace Gibson]

Okay. But this all ties in.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah. I'm gonna go there, rip Saks. I went into Saks the other day, and it was, like, heartbreaking.

[Lynn Whitfield]

It's the.

[Brooke Devard]

So the. The. The discount signs and the clothes kind of hanging off the hanger. I'm like, this is not the Saks that I know.

[Grace Gibson]

Rest. Rest.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah. But Bergdorf's is still, like, in good, you know? But Saks is like.

[Grace Gibson]

I don't know. Everything seems to be a little. Having its issues.

[Brooke Devard]

So. Yeah. The glory days of Saks Fifth Avenue. Oh, my gosh. Daffy's. Lomans.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

Henri Bendel.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Do I ever miss Lomans? And Henri Bendel's. But Lomans was just. Had the best quality.

[Grace Gibson]

Susan Fails will always. My aunt Susan Fails will always bring up the story of how she met me. I was in a baby carrier on the counter at Loman.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

And mom was negotiating something.

[Brooke Devard]

But our moms have that in common, like shopping. My mother. This is like, a big part of our family lore. My mother left the hospital when my brother was born to stop to go shopping because there was a sale going on.

[Grace Gibson]

Oh. My mom's water was breaking. Okay. And she was trying on Ferragamo. Was it?

[Lynn Whitfield]

No, my water broke when I was at Silks and woolens over on Beverly. It's okay.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

It's still there.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yes. And I was with Opal Stone, who's a designer now. She designed jewelry. She was working with me to figure out because I was nominated for an Emmy and I was having Grace, if I had her absolutely on time, I would have two weeks to get it together.

[Grace Gibson]

I was really messing with the way

[Lynn Whitfield]

I had no idea what I would be able to fit into. It was not a moment where designers and every designer wanted to send me something.

[Brooke Devard]

Of course.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Because Josephine Baker. Why? You know, it's like they were sending it to Josephine Baker, and I couldn't. I didn't know what my body was going to do. So Opal Stone, we were designing a gown, and we were choosing colors of duchess satin, and my water broke, and I had on. That was early on. The little mule slide with the kitten.

[Brooke Devard]

You were in heels, nine months pregnant.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Just the.

[Brooke Devard]

Even a kitten when you're pregnant. But you were fabulous.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I was young and foolish who was

[Grace Gibson]

on a press tour.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I was young and foolish, and the press tour was going on.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Lynn Whitfield]

So we're choosing this, and we're holding these Duchess satins. Trying to compare the colors, and bam, the water. Listen, I was so concerned that my Blahniks were going to. I jumped out those Blahniks and away from that Duchess

[Grace Gibson]

so fast before it hit the floor.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And Opal drove me home, and we went straight to the hospital. But yes, again, I guess that's a part of beauty and glamour. So she had asked me a question,

[Grace Gibson]

so I'm gonna go back to answering. So, basically, upon birth, jumping out of the Blahniks.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

Okay. And then we moved to New York. I was born here. We moved to New York. But. Okay, your earliest memory.

[Brooke Devard]

Saks Fifth Avenue.

[Grace Gibson]

Saks Fifth Avenue. I am in the corner in a ball, begging. Whatever. I hadn't found Jesus yet, but I was, like, begging the atmosphere. Like, please, please, can we please leave here and go to Serendipities or go somewhere. I need a hot dog. I need to do some child stuff. And mom was just. It felt like an eternity. It felt like my whole life. Like I was born conceptualized.

[Lynn Whitfield]

It was not. It was terrible. She was just.

[Grace Gibson]

I felt like everything in my life had happened in that dressing room.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah. Cause you had been there for so long, probably.

[Grace Gibson]

And I was, like, crying. I was like, mom, can we please leave and see the sun again? And she was like, honey, one day you'll understand. There's a sale on Diane von Furstenberg

[Brooke Devard]

wrap dresses, and that's serious business.

[Grace Gibson]

She's like, you'll get this one day. I sure did understand.

[Brooke Devard]

I agree. I think I credit the fact that I know how to shop. The way that I know how to shop is because shopping with my mother and grandmother and I've been with friends, and it's like, they don't. They kind of look all. I'm like, do you not know how to shop?

[Lynn Whitfield]

No.

[Brooke Devard]

So there's an art to shopping.

[Grace Gibson]

There's people who don't know how to go out. Like people who don't know how to be out on the town.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yes. I am always amazed. Well, not always, because I don't shop with people who shop this way very often. You know, it. It has nothing to do with the hunt.

[Brooke Devard]

Right.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And everything to do with. You know, I can't look. It's just too much. Can you find me that? And get overwhelmed.

[Brooke Devard]

I'll just take this on the full mannequin, full price, just back.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And what the full.

[Grace Gibson]

I know I still have work to do.

[Brooke Devard]

I know we have.

[Grace Gibson]

There are things that must take place.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I. So, yes, it's. It's not as much fun.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

To shop that way. No, but nor do I. I just don't. I just don't because I know what the markup is.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, it's ridiculous. You don't.

[Lynn Whitfield]

What?

[Grace Gibson]

What don't you do?

[Brooke Devard]

Shop full price shopping. Full price. No, is give me an outlet and then when I go to the outlet, I want to shop. Sale at the outlet.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

The things that we have found.

[Brooke Devard]

Of course.

[Grace Gibson]

Didn't I just find something? I found something.

[Brooke Devard]

See, this is because you were born. Essentially.

[Grace Gibson]

I called my mom with tears in my eyes. I was in Paris and I was like a teenager and I had found. Or like I was young girl. I'm still young. I had found fringe leather vintage jackets for like €15.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And I was like, I was gorgeous.

[Grace Gibson]

I was whispering, I have them to this day. I was like, I was like, mom, I don't want any of them to know they're sleeping on this. But I just found this amazing. Yes, yes. There's a. It's the thrill of the hunt.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

But I have to say that we're different. We're not the same. Mom can go and go and go. I'm like, let's get it. And then when I'm done, I'm done.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, I can go and I can go all day.

[Grace Gibson]

Y' all need to go to the day.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah, let's go shopping together.

[Grace Gibson]

Yeah.

[Brooke Devard]

I want to talk about the Josephine Baker story and the also behind the scenes love story as that movie was being made with, you know, Grace, your dad, Josephine Baker was the very first icon, you know, this Grace of the Naked Beauty podcast when I launched in 2016. Oh, really? And I've always just loved and admired and have been obsessed with Josephine Baker. So even just getting that part, what a. What a huge honor. Take me to the beginning. Getting the part and then what was it like making that movie?

[Lynn Whitfield]

Getting the part was a seven month process. A process in which I came to despise her father because I felt like he should have known. So we went through all the round of.

[Brooke Devard]

So you all were already together at that point?

[Grace Gibson]

No, that's how she met him.

[Lynn Whitfield]

That's how I met him.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay, but so why do you say that you thought that he should have known? Cause you just thought it was so obvious that he had.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Because my audition was better than everybody else's.

[Grace Gibson]

I've seen the audition. She produced her own tape.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, wow.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I just felt like I carried that I could. I don't know why.

[Grace Gibson]

But you put the work in.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I felt the work, but I think that the universe, God makes choices, you know. And I felt like Josephine Spirit was very present in the shooting of this film. And I felt that she could trust me to honor her in all of her complexity and all of that. I just felt that then, you know, I wish now at this point in my life, I had such strong creative feelings like that, because, like, I felt invincible I could do. I had the energy, everything to make it happen. So the whole round of auditions that happened here to manifest, it was months long, everyone wanted to do. And at the end of that, I was one of the finalists there. And I was sitting in a chair not as modern, but much like the scale of this one. Having finished the final scene. And he came over, he said, what? How did you do? Marvel's thought that was very good. Very good. Now we're moving on to New York and London and we'll get back to

[Grace Gibson]

you, like to audition more people.

[Lynn Whitfield]

So this is why I couldn't stand him. It's like, that's ridiculous. It had nothing to do with me personally.

[Brooke Devard]

Right, right.

[Lynn Whitfield]

So they went to New York. They did the same thing in New York.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Lynn Whitfield]

They went to London. They did the same thing in London.

[Grace Gibson]

Wow.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And they then decided that the choice should be Irene Cara as the young Josephine and Diane Carroll as the older Josephine. I don't know what happened, you know, but things. They changed their mind or whatever that was. And months later, they called back and I refused to go.

[Brooke Devard]

Really?

[Lynn Whitfield]

I was.

[Brooke Devard]

You were like, I'm over it at this point.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I had such post traumatic stress right from. You know, I was just. I refused to go into an office. I said, if we all meet, we have to meet somewhere that has a round table and not in an office. Cause I just was. I was really traumatized. Like, I was humble enough to know what an opportunity it was and how deeply I wanted it. So.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And then after that meeting, we did another screen test that took seven hours. Wow. The following Saturday. Every phase of her life.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And the next morning they called. And with the offer.

[Grace Gibson]

Wow.

[Brooke Devard]

When I think about her, I obviously think about the hair and the glamorous outfits. When you were doing the screen tests, were you. How did you channel her look? Did you.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I went to this rental place which no longer exists, that was on Fairfax. They had the most beautiful period clothes. I was not going to try to assimilate a silk velvet shrug with a fox collar. Like, you can't move. You can't fool around with that. You have to really, you know, and they helped me. They helped me pull all of that together. I thought it was worth an investment.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes, of course.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And then they were very kind to me and excited for, you know, that I could possibly. So I did all that. But after the film, actually, one of their. The people who work there, I asked that Pony. Pony was his name, could come with me to Budapest. And he came to just help with the period things and went back.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, amazing.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Right after we finished shooting. Yeah. But I just felt it was important to be accurate.

[Grace Gibson]

Didn't dad say something like, after seeing your audition tape, oh, you could direct this?

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yeah. I feel like you could produce and direct the whole thing.

[Brooke Devard]

And I was like, well, I could.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Hell, yeah. So, like, why are you taking so long to decide then? It was just very.

[Brooke Devard]

Did you feel a romantic spark at the beginning or you were just in a.

[Lynn Whitfield]

No, not at all.

[Brooke Devard]

So when did that evolve?

[Lynn Whitfield]

Once we were in Budapest and we were working so hard toward the same goal, which is what I think a good marriage is supposed to be. And he was so protective of me as an actress, and I was so in support of his vision and wanting. So it was all so many things that a good marriage is made of. And so that's how we fell in love like that.

[Grace Gibson]

And the photos are epic. They are of them on set.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh. We'll insert them here in the episode for people watching, looking.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Did the banana skirt on the. And. But I. The thing is, is that we didn't experience true intimacy. We didn't have sex while I was shooting Grace's face. No.

[Grace Gibson]

Call me when you start the.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Well, because I was even aware at that point that I couldn't mess up, that I couldn't betray her power and get all soapy and vulnerable, and it would be too much.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And I knew that. And at that point, I think the only other actress who'd had this opportunity, Black actress, was Diana Ross and Lady Sings the Blues. They weren't spending tons of time where a black woman was the subject of. And in every frame of a film.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And so I couldn't mess that up. It's probably why we got married so quickly. And maybe that got in the way of the best.

[Brooke Devard]

They went straight to London and got married.

[Grace Gibson]

That's how you do it. Ladies, hold out.

[Brooke Devard]

How old were you, Grace, when you saw the movie for the first time? And what was your emotional response to seeing it?

[Grace Gibson]

I did not see the movie until I was in college.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow. How is that possible?

[Grace Gibson]

There's a lot of breast in that film.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay, so you weren't allowed to see it?

[Grace Gibson]

No, no, no. We were in, like, a household where it was a hippie household, you know.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay. So. But you just. You weren't ready to take it in.

[Grace Gibson]

No. That's just me being tongue in cheek and funny about it. Cause, I mean, I do have to say, so many men have come up to me and be like, the first titties I ever saw was your mother's. Thank you so much for, you know, bringing me into adulthood. Tell her thank you. And I'm just like, okay, why is this an exchange that we're having? So, of course, that was, like, the tongue in cheek. Funny thing. But I think it was very emotional for me to watch it. Cause simultaneously, I'm watching my father passed away when I was 12. I'm watching his vision, you know, I'm watching his choices on camera. It's like being inside his head. And the way that we bonded. Should I set up more?

[Lynn Whitfield]

No.

[Grace Gibson]

The way that we bonded as a family was like watching movies together. So that's like a language. Even through divorce, they did a great job of us having things that we would do together, which I think spilled into my artistry. Like going to see movies, going to see Broadway plays. I was trying to go see Cats. Like, it was going to the park. They were like, please, girl. No, that's.

[Lynn Whitfield]

If I saw that. Oh, my God.

[Grace Gibson]

But seeing it as an adult was very emotional for me because I'm seeing posthumously who he was.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

As an artist and therefore as a man. And then I'm seeing my mother come into her own in such a grand way and channel. Like, I think of my godmother is Caroline ducrow, but my, like, fairy godmother is Josephine Baker, because without her, I wouldn't be alive. And then I'm seeing them fall in love through this process. And her vulnerability and all that Josephine went through mirrors part of our journey that people don't know what we've gone through as a family. And so it was very emotional. I cried a lot. And, yeah, I had to kind of get my weight up to watch that movie. And I'm so glad that I did. Cause it's the reason I'm here.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah. Wow. I love that. Well, you know, it's interesting to me, you both have these creative careers, and you often hear that people's families are the things that hold them back from having a creative career. So did you both have. I mean. So, Grace, I know that your mother's been supportive of you pursuing the arts, but were your parents supportive of you pursuing the Arts.

[Lynn Whitfield]

No, they weren't.

[Brooke Devard]

But you did it anyway. So how was that? I did Journey.

[Lynn Whitfield]

They inspired me by who they were as human beings. Right. So my mother's aesthetic sense, how she told stories and researched, you know, it could be food, it could be that she's from a different country. It inspired me, you know, in how she expressed herself. My father had something called the Baton Rouge Community Chorus to have something for people in our community to be entertained by. So my birth was announced on stage when he was doing that, but it was more of a community based thing. I was on my own pretty much.

[Grace Gibson]

But he had a psychedelic black rock band called Black Blood and the Chocolate Pickles.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Well, yeah, by then I was at, you know, I was on my way to Howard.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And he. Yes. My father was a great songwriter. Grace has done one of his songs called Mississippi Mud.

[Grace Gibson]

And you produced one of his musicals.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I. I did, but they weren't helpful. So being an independent artist, what.

[Brooke Devard]

I mean, it takes a lot of courage to do it because so many people try and very, very few people succeed. And even fewer people have the career you've had from an accolade standpoint, from a fan love standpoint, and then from a longevity standpoint, very. You're like in a very rare group.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Group. Well, I wanted to get rarer. I have more to do, guys. I have a lot of stuff that I have to do. But it was. It was very meaningful that they were with me at the Emmys, you know, for them to see. And my father passed away like a year and a half or so after that, two years. But that they could see that this stubborn headed tenacity to stay with it had reaped something, you know. But there's another little story. Can I tell you, please. So Brian and I get married in England. We go straight from Budapest to London. And it was August, right. So most, you know, most people, they're vacationing. Are vacationing. So some of his family and friends were there, not all. They were, you know, scattered around the globe. None of my family was there. We married. I was. I just had to do it. I had to go with the flow. Informed by the fact that Josephine put all this off and that's why she had the Rainbow Tribe. This is what fueled me to be so. So we get.

[Brooke Devard]

We should explain to people that don't know what the Rainbow Tribe is, because it's very unique.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Well, you love it.

[Brooke Devard]

So, yes. I mean, she decided to adopt children from all over the. As her way of building her family and she would Just adopt kids one by one. I think she had up to 12 children that she adopted one from children each from different countries. And they all lived in her fabulous chateau with her amazing pets.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And she needed all of that to fill the space of not having her own children. Right. So then that became a political statement, an emotional statement. Not the wisest because she ran out of money, but. But we married. We were in a little muse house that my agent owned, and she. That was our wedding gift that we could stay there while he was editing the film. And Brian was a Buddhist, so he's chanting away, and I'm like, oh, my God, I got to get used. Because, you know, I didn't know. It's the gongs and the bongs.

[Grace Gibson]

Very interactive, various.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Like, you know, a little muse house with stone and all of that. It's just echoing over the entire place. And he finishes chanting one day. We'd only been married for, like, three weeks or maybe a month. And he comes up those little stairs. You know, a muse house is tiny, very. And he says, darling. Darling. I said, what? He was like an epiphany, like, shock. I didn't know if somebody Good, bad. He said, there's a little spirit that wants to come in.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Lynn Whitfield]

To our lives. Really wants to come in. I felt it so palpably, and we should let it. I looked at him. Well, I just did the biggest role of my life. What in the hell are you talking. You felt a spirit from the dam. Yoda. All of this. I'm like, okay, Goobly gob.

[Brooke Devard]

And that was Grace.

[Grace Gibson]

Made me a little emotional.

[Lynn Whitfield]

But it's true. Because God. You can't know how God is gonna speak and where God's voice is going to be heard. And I was very rebellious. It was like, that cannot be. This is that. I don't believe that. That's ridiculous. And anyway, I'm Christian, and this is crazy. And all of everything that I thought I was doing that would prevent that from happening. By October, I was pregnant.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow. Wow. That's incredible.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And the moment. The moment when I had her after I saved my Blahniks and went to the hospital, and the next when they brought her to me, I just first fell in love. Didn't really understand, but I knew she was supposed to be here, and I knew that we were supposed to be together. And it really is kind of a metaphysical, transcendental kind of connection. And I'm not a baby, baby, infant baby person. No, I'm really not.

[Grace Gibson]

She's so funny. She's really not. I'll be like, oh, mom, look at my friend had a kid and she's like, uh huh. She thinks your kids are adorable.

[Brooke Devard]

But it's different when it's your baby.

[Lynn Whitfield]

It's different when it's. It's different when it's. When it's your baby. And it's different when it's a connection that you can't really explain.

[Brooke Devard]

Explain? Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Like how this is. I couldn't explain it because I personally had never romanticized being a mother in my. Never. It just was not.

[Brooke Devard]

It wasn't on the vision board of what you wanted to do.

[Lynn Whitfield]

It wasn't that it wasn't. But it wasn't anything that I spent a lot of time thinking about, you know, so.

[Grace Gibson]

Okay, so how many stars? Five. What's your review? Oh, of having.

[Lynn Whitfield]

My gosh.

[Grace Gibson]

I'm joking.

[Lynn Whitfield]

No, but here's the thing. Being with any other human being, there's always challenges. Everyone's on their own rhythm. But Grace, I just wouldn't be the full person that I am. And I don't think I would have exactly the same vision for my present and what I want to do. And Grace keeps me cool.

[Brooke Devard]

Absolutely.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And we're just connected in such a deep, strong way.

[Brooke Devard]

I love that you all are so close. Grace, what do you attribute that to? Like, for. For you to say, like, my mom is my bestie. That's rare to have that deep relation. And that, that feeling specifically when you say a term like bestie. A lack of judgment. Right. That you feel like I can, I can share things and I'm not going to be judged or I think my

[Grace Gibson]

first of all, her telling that story of my coming into this world is so touching. And I do recall too that she had a spiritual advisor. And later when she was going through the divorce and she was of course like really upset about it and saying, you know, questioning so many things. This woman who was a spiritualist, she said, okay, but you know, the higher power, God is telling me she did not come here to be with him, she came here to be with you.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Grace Gibson]

And this is before my dad got sick, everything like that. And I mean, I love my dad. My dad and I twinsies, you know, very similar lives within me. Strongly would love nothing more than for him to still be here with us. But things just sometimes are out of your power. And we have mom set this stage and dad did in his own way, but mom really like held it down and set the stage where there was. She would ask me questions, you know, there are big life Decisions that have to be made. We were a team. Because when. Similarly to you, you know, when you are not just your kids, you're not just your husband, you are your gift and your calling in this world is larger than yourself. And you give of yourself to others. And if you don't do that, you're kind of disrespecting. God, you're disrespecting why you're here. That was very understood in our family. Like, it wasn't talked about so much, but I understood walking through the street and you were talking about growing up and her beauty routines. To me, growing up, my mom was, bar none, the most, and to this day, most beautiful woman in the world. We would walk outside and men, I remember walking by and there was this biker group of men. And they were like, ah. And my mom was like, hey, boys. She's like, nice bikes. And I was just like, oh, what a badass. And her getting ready and her routines. And I would be her stop clock. I'd be like, hey, mom, you have 15 minutes. Which is cute at first, but when you're running late, she's like, okay, girl, stop. Just stop reminding me that I'm late. But I would see her do her thing. And one thing about my mom was that it was never precious either. Like, she was just doing it. It wasn't overthought. And I thought that was so.

[Brooke Devard]

It's natural. It's innate. It was in her.

[Grace Gibson]

It was so. It was like a lifestyle.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

And she wanted to give that to me. And it seeps into everything. It's so beyond aesthetics. And to your point, why are we best friends? It's like she set the stage where these big decisions had to be made about her career. I had to understand sometimes, hey, mom has to go work in Vancouver for a couple months, but she's coming back. She. And I think part of the reason why I'm a singer, she had nightly songs she would sing to me, and she would sing them on a CD and play it. Even when she was gone, I would be able to play it.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And it was a song that was in Josephine Baker. Josephine Baker.

[Brooke Devard]

How beautiful.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And it was just so fitting my voice. What is it?

[Grace Gibson]

Pretty little baby everybody knows Pretty little baby I love you Sweeter than the honey birds up in the tree oh, this is so beautiful.

[Brooke Devard]

I'm gonna cry.

[Grace Gibson]

It's so gorgeous. And so it was like.

[Lynn Whitfield]

But it was that other one.

[Grace Gibson]

Beautiful, marvelous, simply adorable. Baby cheeks like the rose that were kissed by the morning dew Both of

[Lynn Whitfield]

those songs are in the film.

[Grace Gibson]

Yeah. And so that's like, my first concert is my mom and she. We were a team. So it was like, hey, we might have to move to LA so I can work more. How do you think? What do you think about that? Do you want to do that? And we would be problem solving. I mean, of course, like, she'd run on the show, but she would include me.

[Brooke Devard]

No, I needed to hear this because I think as a working mom, like all working moms, I carry guilt with me. You know, I have to travel next week. I'm gonna be gone for a week and a half, away from my kids and my son's like, you were just gone and you're gonna be gone again.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

And he knows what I do for work, and he knows that it fulfills me. But you always have that kind of aching of, like, I shouldn't be away so much.

[Lynn Whitfield]

You do. As long as you continue to include them. I believe that when they really understand the nuances of what you're doing, like, it's tough at the moment. There will be no lacking of love with your husband, with what you surround them with. And so it will all catch up because they grow up, you see.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And guess who taught, who told me a lot. When I moved to New York, Susan Fails was working out in Los Angeles.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

When we went to New York, Grace was 3. And she said, oh, you have to see Mommy. And so Josephine Premise. And I. She was my other mother who offered me such incredible advice. I could ask her anything. And we spent hours and hours just sitting because she was not as well, you know, to be out in the world. And I saw how much Susan loved Josephine and how she spoke of her.

[Grace Gibson]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And how she shared everything with her and just admired her mom. And I said, well, Josephine, I want Grace to love me like Susan loves you. What did you do? You had to be gone and you were doing Broadway and this and that. She said, oh, she would be impossible when I was about to go out. And it's just, oh, Mommy, I don't want you to go. I mean, she just act out. She said, but I go in and I'd sing to her. I'd sing to her before she went to sleep. And of course, I was always there when she woke up in the morning. But it's the love and the hugs and always. And so the level of intimacy. And Aunt Helen taught me a lot. Who was with us for about eight years? One of my dear friends who was also a prayer partner. Her mother came. The best cook the most loving. And so. And yes. And so she would say, oh, baby, you got to love them up. Just love them up. That's all. And so I learned from other women how to let her know that I am definitely going to be a consistent in her life whether I go to work or I come home. I'm your road dog, darling. Bow wow. We're it. We're team. That's it. I'm never, yes, ever going to leave you.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, my gosh.

[Grace Gibson]

And that's one of my earliest memories too, being as, you know, melaninly challenged as I am.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I was so amazed when she popped out and she was.

[Grace Gibson]

They were all shocked. My dad was like, I thought we were gonna have a little brown baby.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And I was like, she's no, I am not gonna have any imitation of life mess with this.

[Grace Gibson]

But it's like no question that I'm a black woman.

[Brooke Devard]

Right.

[Grace Gibson]

I was gonna say there's none of that. I'm biracial. There's. That's not how I.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay, you see, but you don't identify that way.

[Grace Gibson]

I think, yes, I am black of a biracial variety. But black comes first.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

It's like multiple cultural comes first.

[Brooke Devard]

You identify as a black woman first.

[Grace Gibson]

I think that I have a certain experience that's different as someone who is black American with Jamaican parents or someone who is, you know, there's different varieties and beautiful array of our blackness and our experiences within that. And I think that they should be listened to and people who have certain perceived privileges should understand other people's experiences and inversely, you know, but we live in America and at the end of the day, you know, we went to Spence, nobody thought I was white, no matter if my hair was straight or whatever. I was never gonna be. And I never wanted to be perceived as such.

[Brooke Devard]

And I think that's important because as the mother of, you know, mixed race kids, I want them to feel affirmed in their identity. I don't want them to have these struggles. Am I. Because you hear about this inner conflict that a lot of biracial kids go

[Lynn Whitfield]

through, you know, and I feel that there should be no discernment you can choose to identify more strongly with, but you have to love all of who you are and understanding culturally. If you do a little bit of research from Grace's English family, there's so much of them in her, you know, there's so much of my mother in her. And what comes from our. I mean, that is what is so special.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

About mixed. I don't know why I've never loved that word. Like, mixed.

[Grace Gibson]

You call me blended.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Blend, yeah. Blended Grace.

[Brooke Devard]

I love things.

[Grace Gibson]

I just did a book called Blended Grace for my birthday.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yes. It was a pictorial that I felt, with all the shifting of our lives, that it just a self. I didn't do it to sell. I did it.

[Grace Gibson]

But I wrote a think piece for CNN when they did Black in America, and there was an episode on being biracial, and there were all these people being so confused, and that was all they represented and not being so affirmed. Like, I feel the audacity in certain spaces to say what I want, and I know that that's part of my privilege is like, you look like my Uncle John in England. Like, okay, what? Let's talk about it. And certain people of my family, I've had conversations. They're not always comfortable conversations, Uncle John particularly, but they're progressive conversations. And, like, I'm not trying to upset, like, you know, Twitter or the X or the threads. Please, please, God, we love everybody. Cut what's necessary.

[Lynn Whitfield]

We love.

[Grace Gibson]

I love everybody.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Everyone.

[Grace Gibson]

I think it is important.

[Lynn Whitfield]

We just want to be loved back.

[Grace Gibson]

Yes. Amen. And I just think that I don't want to. My point is, I don't want to distance myself from my blackness.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

There's no desire in me to differentiate. You know, when we were in South Africa last year, I had a lot of conversations with people. They were like, oh, you're colored. And I was like, I'm black. And they're like, but you're colored. And it was a very interesting conversation because they have a way that they make a distinction. And if you go so far back, that distinction was made to create a caste system. Yes. Not everybody wants to acknowledge that.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Grace Gibson]

So casted. You know, it's all societal stuff that's not really real, but it's good to be aware of where it comes from.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, absolutely.

[Grace Gibson]

You know, and why would you want to differentiate between. There's a vast array within all these colors. Within blackness.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

You know what I mean?

[Brooke Devard]

Well, I have a question for the mothers listening and for the daughters listening. So, Grace, maybe I'll start with you as a daughter, because as a mother, I always want to know this. How has your mom made you feel affirmed in your life choices and your creative journey? What are. What are things that she's done to just make you feel good about the path that you're on? Because I think as a mother, we want nothing more than to make our kids feel. Feel loved, accepted, that they can Flourish. How has she done that for you?

[Grace Gibson]

I think my mom keeps it 100. 100, 100. I think that's super important, you know, because I know she's a trusted muse, guide, and confidant. She's gonna give it to me straight.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay.

[Grace Gibson]

And I think that that's super important. Like, you saw her on the red carpet with Duran.

[Brooke Devard]

Of course. I was right there.

[Grace Gibson]

You were there. That all comes from love, you know, I think that's. That's an important thing of. Let's.

[Lynn Whitfield]

He's so adorable.

[Grace Gibson]

He's. We love him. Let's be radically honest with one another.

[Brooke Devard]

And that's helpful to hear, though, because I think sometimes the urge is to sugarcoat. Like, I had a moment where I was playing with my son, and I said, how. How much longer am I supposed to let him win every time we play? And my husband's like, maybe we stop letting him win, because, like, he's gotta learn that he's not always gonna win. It's like, I think sometimes you wanna treat your kids with kid gloves and actually radical honesty is the best thing for them.

[Grace Gibson]

Yes. I think that that has been super integral to me becoming the person I am and to me becoming an artist. Like, to be honest, she didn't want me to do this.

[Lynn Whitfield]

No.

[Grace Gibson]

This was not a, like, oh, carry on the family legacy thing. It was a. Okay. You say you want to do this thing, only do it if you can't breathe without it.

[Brooke Devard]

Wow.

[Grace Gibson]

Because it's too hard.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I wasn't. Didn't take that approach. Oh, yes. Sweetie. Will we. No, you really have to want it. If I see that you really want it and your life will, then I will support it.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Because that means that you're gonna hang in there.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

And go get the tools and the knowledge and, like, go suck.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, yeah.

[Grace Gibson]

Well.

[Brooke Devard]

And you've. And you've been putting in the work. You know, like, moonlighting under directors, like, playing different shows all around the country. Like, you've really put in the work, Grace.

[Grace Gibson]

Yeah. Well, it started with the voice, the dancing, and then the voice. But it was. She's a cr. Craftswoman.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

And it's. Everybody talks about the glamour and all this, but the craft and the study of that and just being of a service, you're like. It's a service you're rendering to society.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

And she really, really has put that work in. And these characters, she lives with them, she sits with them, she studies, she researches. Seeing her do that, seeing her give her all, you know, it makes you it gives you a standard of what is not even excellence. What is the bare minimum.

[Brooke Devard]

Absolutely.

[Grace Gibson]

You must give your all to start off like, and then go more.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

And so I think as that's been affirming, because it made me really have to dig deep.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

And not lie to myself, although I often do. But, you know, she keeps it real when it comes to my appearance, when it comes to my. My body, when it comes to my dating, even if I'm wrong in a situation, she'll, like, be. Well, you were kind of wrong, Grace. I was like, aren't you supposed to

[Brooke Devard]

be on my side, blindly backing me up?

[Grace Gibson]

Yes. She doesn't.

[Lynn Whitfield]

But the world isn't like that.

[Grace Gibson]

No.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. Yes. And it's so important to know that I'm gonna ask you guys two last questions. Cause I know we're at time. But, Lynn, for you, I think that as daughters and sons listening to this, one of the things that we always wanna do is we wanna show our moms how much we appreciate them, how much we love them. And it's like Mother's Day comes around, and it's like, what do I buy a candle? Like, it's like, what do I get my mom to show that I really care? How has Grace been able to show you in a way that's really meant something to you, how much she cares and loves you?

[Lynn Whitfield]

Oh, she puts so much thought into the gift she gives me.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, okay. She's a good gift giver.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And so they're thoughtful.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

You know, what it would mean to someone else, but it's specific to me. She appreciates me in all my idiosyncrasies and my, you know, and who I am. So she puts so much thought. Because so often I'll say, oh, please, I don't want to do anything special. What is that about? I don't know. That's something I need to go counsel. I make it hard, but that. But the greatest gift I think, ultimately that Grace can give me is to be all of who she's meant to be at the time. Because that all evolves and it changes. And for her to continue to create her space in the world, there's not going to be anything that will give me more.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Than the fullness of her life. Because then I really did the thing.

[Brooke Devard]

Absolutely. I feel the same way. I cannot let you all leave naked Beauty without giving me some beauty tips, some beauty products, a treatment that you guys get, a beauty service that you all love. What are your favorite skincare makeup treatments? Is there anything that you guys both love.

[Grace Gibson]

Do you want me to go first, Mom? You can go first while you brainstorm.

[Lynn Whitfield]

No, I know what I.

[Grace Gibson]

You know what you want to do? Yeah. Okay. I love Linda Ross.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay.

[Grace Gibson]

The esthetician.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, okay. An esthetician.

[Grace Gibson]

But she saved my skin.

[Brooke Devard]

Is she here in L. A?

[Grace Gibson]

She's here in la. I had terrible hormonal acne. Like, nobody could fix it.

[Brooke Devard]

I don't remember this period of your life, Grace.

[Grace Gibson]

Oh, she does. Mom was the one. I woke up. I was visiting her in Atlanta, and I woke up and she was over me as I fell asleep on the couch. She said, honey, your skin. What happened? Honesty.

[Brooke Devard]

That's that honesty you were talking about. And thank God for it.

[Grace Gibson]

Thank you. Right. Find some solutions.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I was panicked.

[Grace Gibson]

It's like, we gotta do something. And so she does these amazing, very intense facials where she does. If you have clogged skin, she'll go in there and she will research the whole thing by hand, all natural, one pore at a time. And then she has these products, this colostrum mask that heals. And she was the first person I had ever heard of colostrum with. So she's an OG and then also a propolis skin moisturizer. And I swear by both of those, you feel the burnt. Like, you feel it, you know, antimicrobial, whatever. It's doing the thing.

[Brooke Devard]

And then, I mean, your curls are just amazing. What do you. What hair products are you reaching for?

[Grace Gibson]

Currently, I'm a mixer. Like, I like to try. Oh, this is what I'll say over the pandemic. Making smoothies. And you're the first one to get this. Okay, I was juicing a lot. I put the juice on my face when I'm juicing. Doesn't it make a big difference? Oh, she did carrot K. Or it was celery pineapple.

[Brooke Devard]

I so believe in that.

[Grace Gibson]

Yes, all of that. Mix it with the colostrum mask. As far as my curls, I think that the curls. Because I get this question a lot. You have to be patient with the curls. You do not control the curls. You go where the curl is going. Ride the curl wave, babes. And don't rush it. Like, you gotta have an ugly period.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

You gotta have a. I cut it off and I hate this. I don't want to look in the mirror. And you have to try different products because I think every few months, they stop working. Your hair stops accepting the product. And so setting your curls. And I have to say, my number one product for my Curls is the double toothed brush, brush, comb from wedad. Nobody talks about it.

[Brooke Devard]

Interesting.

[Grace Gibson]

It makes the biggest difference out of all of the products I've used. Maybe cuts your time down to 18 of what it would to be to detangle your hair.

[Brooke Devard]

To detangle. Wow. Okay. That's high praise.

[Grace Gibson]

No, Ouidod. You know, and it makes a nice. Yeah, it does that too.

[Brooke Devard]

What about you, Lynn? What are your go to beauty products? This is because you've been gorgeous your whole life. It's kind of unfair.

[Lynn Whitfield]

I. No, but you know, what I have done since I was in my 20s is African soap.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And Korean exfoliating pads. So I really believe that there's no point in trying to treat skin that's dead.

[Brooke Devard]

Exfoliated away.

[Grace Gibson]

Exfoliated away scrubs like nobody I've ever seen.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And I mean it. You know, sheets of dead skin roll away. And then what you're treating, what you're moisturizing, what you're, you know, working on hyperpigmentation or skin tightening. It really has an opportunity to do it. So I have really always exfoliated. And people can see the difference. If there's a period of time where I don't. Grace is like, mom, what are you doing? You need sunblock. You need something, girl.

[Grace Gibson]

Can I please just say, though? Because she and my grandmother, like, I don't know what's in the blood. I'm so grateful. Thank you, Jesus. That I'm related to them. They are so minimal. Yes.

[Brooke Devard]

You don't need a whole lot.

[Grace Gibson]

Grammy would just be like, baby, pass me the ponds. What? That's it? No moisturizer, Nothing?

[Lynn Whitfield]

She loved ponds.

[Grace Gibson]

Not a wrinkle.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And she didn't have wrinkles.

[Grace Gibson]

No Botox.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And she passed away in November. No varicose vein at 93.

[Grace Gibson]

Wow. And she was my complexion with no varicose veins. It's crazy. 94, actually. Right? 94.

[Lynn Whitfield]

That's such an unattractive word.

[Grace Gibson]

Varicose veins. But I'll say this because mom isn't always aware of the things that she does do because she. She's always moving, she's always working. She's a busybody. And so she doesn't keep up with a lot of all what the. What the people are doing now. All of this. Layers and layers. She's very minimal to the point where I'm begging her to put a serum on. I'm like, just put something on it.

[Brooke Devard]

But it's clearly working. So maybe Don't. Don't brook. What's not fixed. What's not? Doesn't need to be fixed.

[Grace Gibson]

Well, no, because it takes baths.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, baths. You're big into bathing.

[Grace Gibson]

And she does the steam.

[Brooke Devard]

Okay.

[Lynn Whitfield]

So. So steaming baths and full body exfoliation. Just exfoliating.

[Brooke Devard]

Exfoliate a little bit every day.

[Lynn Whitfield]

It really is so helpful. And full body.

[Brooke Devard]

I love it.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And then one product that I discovered in South Africa that I really love is the products all natural. And it's Ecodiva, Eco Diva, and it's all natural. Some of it has CBD in it, but you can just smell the freshness, and it makes such a beautiful glow. They have one that has minerals, you know, great minerals in South Africa, as you know. I'm sorry.

[Grace Gibson]

We had the best.

[Lynn Whitfield]

And it has, like a nice shimmer. Yes, it has a great shimmer to it.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, I'm excited to try.

[Grace Gibson]

You have to go. When you. We had our first mother daughter trip.

[Brooke Devard]

Oh, fun.

[Grace Gibson]

Like, that was a real vacation because we're always catching a trip, working.

[Brooke Devard]

Right.

[Grace Gibson]

She came to see me in Minneapolis, the Paisley Park. I go catch her. We go. Go to the Vineyard, stuff like that. But this was like, we are going on a trip.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Grace Gibson]

She shot a movie in South Africa. Strong. Which. Which is coming out in Cape Town. So I went and met her and they flew me Delta 1 girl. And once you go Delta 1, you don't go. Because I first saw Delta 1 on your page and I was like, you know what? I've. I've lived. No, it was beautiful. I loved it. It was fab, anyway.

[Lynn Whitfield]

But it was Victoria Falls. We did both sides of the. The fall.

[Grace Gibson]

Shelly Howell put together a trip for us where we partner with Anantara, the Royal Living Stone. And we went to Zambia, Zimbabwe.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

And the people's skin is beautiful. They're kindness.

[Brooke Devard]

We did that trip last summer. It was amazing. We did Zambia and Livingston.

[Grace Gibson]

Oh, you did the falls and stuff.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Isn't it beautiful?

[Brooke Devard]

Beautiful. The Zambezi River. We did safari in Botswana. I mean, it was incredible. We keep asking Mavi every day. We're like, you remember. You remember, right? We're like forcing him to remember.

[Grace Gibson]

You better remember.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yes, I know.

[Brooke Devard]

Well, my final question, even though I could talk to you guys for forever, when. And while you guys can answer individually, when do you feel most beautiful?

[Lynn Whitfield]

That's a really. I think I felt most beautiful in island environments. When the humidity just helps to bring a glow.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

To your skin. And being near water.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Brings out a freedom.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

In me. So in those environments, I think I've I've experienced, you know, the most naturally beautiful kind of feeling.

[Brooke Devard]

I agree. You're not rushed. You're not like, you can just. It's like you're on vacation. You're on an island. The humidity is just right. Yes.

[Lynn Whitfield]

So I think. I think for me, that would be the most organically, the time that I feel most organically. They even say beautiful, but beautiful.

[Brooke Devard]

Yeah.

[Lynn Whitfield]

All right.

[Grace Gibson]

Yeah, Mom. Beautiful.

[Lynn Whitfield]

Yes.

[Grace Gibson]

Mine came to me quickly. I'm very aware. Oh, tell us the moment that I prepare for. Right, the moment that, like, all the practicing and the looking terrible in the house and the sweat and the hair knotted up and the writing, the songs and the negotiating and all that, all of that goes away and you're on the stage and there's this metaphysical thing that happens that you have the nerves off stage of and you're being like, rude to yourself, and you're just like, okay, we gotta do all these things, right? And the stress. But then you get on stage and you're in front of an audience and the. You're with each other, you know, and there's a quiet that happens, that time slows down and all the nerves and the self judgment that you felt before is now gone. And you're just quiet, slowed down in this flow with them and they're with you and you feel like this is why you live. That's when I feel most beautiful.

[Brooke Devard]

I love that. I love that I have to come to one of your shows.

[Grace Gibson]

Yeah, girl, anytime. Listen, we can always talk forever. You have my number.

[Brooke Devard]

I know, I know. And I always love talking to you, my Leo sister. This was such a pleasure. Honestly, better than I could have ever imagined. You two are both so, so inspiring to me and I love your dynamic and I hope that Jade and I can be sitting on a couch one day and Jade says, like, you know, we're besties. That would be my dream come true.

[Lynn Whitfield]

That will be jewelry.

[Brooke Devard]

Yes. I love it. Thank you both.

[Grace Gibson]

We love you.

[Brooke Devard]

Thank you, love, and happy Mother's Day for everyone listening.

[Grace Gibson]

Just the two of us we can make it if we try Just the

[Lynn Whitfield]

two of us

[Grace Gibson]

Just the two of us Building them castles in the sky Just the two of us, you and I. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Taryn or Cami (podcast ad speakers)]

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[Grace Gibson]

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