Ms. Tina Knowles on Country Roots and Haircare Innovation [Rerun]

Summary

Naked Beauty Podcast: Ms. Tina Knowles on Country Roots and Haircare Innovation

Host: Brooke DeVard
Co-Host: Sir John
Guest: Ms. Tina Knowles
Air Date: August 25, 2025
Episode Theme: A deep, heartfelt conversation with Ms. Tina Knowles on the intersections of Black haircare, the roots of Sacred (her co-founded haircare brand), the importance of salon culture, artistry, and empowering the next generation.

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Episode Overview

Brooke DeVard and Sir John sit down with Ms. Tina Knowles to explore her country roots, the soulful traditions behind Black haircare, years of salon wisdom, and the innovation powering her Sacred haircare brand (co-founded with her daughter, Beyoncé). This rerun episode revisits intimate stories about family, Texas style, affirming self-care rituals, and honoring the creative spirit in children—and in the community at large.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy and Ritual of Black Hair Care

• Wash Day as Ritual
  • Ms. Tina and Brooke reflect on the importance of wash day as sacred time for Black women, a moment to care for oneself in the midst of busy lives.
  • Ms. Tina describes her own routine, using Sacred products and highlighting the need to balance protein, moisture, and oils for healthier, stronger hair.
    • “Protein is your first building block, but with protein, it dries your hair. So you have to have a balance of moisture with that and oils. And we need oils and moisture in our hair more so than, you know, really straight textured hair.” —Ms. Tina [11:27]

2. Innovation Behind Sacred Haircare

• Product Design & Development
  • Sacred was designed to blend beauty, science, and the needs of textured hair, with rigorous testing by Black women and professional stylists.
  • Beyoncé led much of the creative direction for the packaging: “She said, ‘I want them to look like Egyptian sculpture...like stone’...We kept pushing and the bottles actually look like stone.” —Ms. Tina [15:15]
  • Formula and product development was painstaking and unrelenting.
    • “We sent everything back so many times the manufacturers hated us.” —Ms. Tina [16:36]
  • The brand emphasizes real-world efficacy over celebrity hype:
    • "It can't be about Beyonce. It has to be. This product has to stand on its own." —Ms. Tina [41:29]

3. The Spiritual and Cultural Importance of Salon Spaces

• Healing, Connection & Community
  • Ms. Tina shares salon stories that reveal the power of salons as spaces for therapy, mentorship, and witnessing possibilities for Black women and girls.
    • "It's a connection that happens there that I don't think you get with anything else…It's about touch." —Ms. Tina [19:16]
  • She’s committed to nurturing not just hair, but confidence and self-worth in every client:
    • "I am honored to do someone's hair... because of the connection that I feel with that person." [20:44]

4. Roots in Texas, Family, and Country Style

• Texas Influence & Cowboy Culture
  • Stories of big hair, bold color, and the rodeo as central to Houston's Black culture.
    • “The bigger, the better... That's Texas. You know, when people say everything is big in Texas, it's big.” —Ms. Tina [22:19]
  • Reclaiming Black history in rodeo and cowboy culture, with anecdotes of Beyoncé in western attire since childhood.
    • "If you notice the costumes, I had them in cowboy hats... it's not just the outfit, it's the lifestyle." —Ms. Tina [27:17]

5. Artistry, Parenting, and Empowerment

• Cultivating Creativity in Children
  • Ms. Tina shares the importance of seeing each child as unique, giving individualized attention, and fostering creativity without imposing fixed ideals.
    • "Them having their own identity is so so important...I gave them each their own time." —Ms. Tina [51:49]
  • Encouraging creative pursuits over strict academic achievement for children with artistic gifts.
    • "I was the one saying, let's shoot hooky today and go down to the beach." —Ms. Tina [54:05]
• Intergenerational Style and Confidence
  • The emphasis on finding and accentuating each person's best attributes, a lesson passed down from her own mother.
    • "Look at someone, and even if it's their hands, compliment them on their hands... it makes them feel good." —Ms. Tina [22:43]
• Mother-Daughter Collaboration
  • Working with Beyoncé on Sacred is described as an honor and continuation of a family legacy, both emotional and practical.
    • "It's been the best because we both share a passion for hair... fashion saved my family's life." —Ms. Tina [44:13]

6. The Value and Evolution of Salon Culture

• Concern over the loss of the classic nurturing salon vibe among newer stylists, and a call to restore genuine connection, hair analysis, and hospitality.
  • "My advice to younger stylists is connect with your client... see your client, like, they're a special person." —Ms. Tina [38:33]
  • No gossip, strict professionalism, and individualized care defined her leadership at Headliners Salon.

7. Representation and the Importance of Art

• Ms. Tina discusses her dedication to showcasing Black art and culture, both at home for her daughters and through community work at Waco Theater Center.
  • "It made my girls appreciate beauty across the board...it wasn't one standard of beauty." —Ms. Tina [56:10]
  • Exposure to art helps build confidence, expand horizons, and provide positive images for Black youngsters.

8. Challenges and Integrity in Product Creation

• The biggest challenge in launching Sacred was a refusal to cut corners, even delaying launch and incurring extra costs to ensure product effectiveness and innovation (for example: honey as a humectant over mere marketing).
  • “…We put the launch back twice. Cost us millions of dollars. But we did it because it wasn’t…she was like, ‘I’m sorry, y’all, it’s not ready yet.’” —Ms. Tina [47:38]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Wash Day Ritual:
  • “We named this Sacred...especially in our culture, in Black culture, that's that one time that you are focusing only on yourself because as women, we just give so much of our time and energy.” —Ms. Tina [10:20]
• On Creativity in the Household:
  • “Every child is so different... You have to let them be them. And so I saw very early on that they had two totally different personalities. I never tried to dress them alike.” —Ms. Tina [51:49]
• On the meaning of the word legacy for Sacred:
  • “The legacy should be...self-care...that this came and it worked. It did its job and it left it better than, you know, when it came.” —Ms. Tina [50:40]
• On Self-Care:
  • “It's not just about, you know, having that spa day...it's about taking some time for yourself, to kind of analyze my life and figure out what I need to do for myself.” —Ms. Tina [12:42]
• On Hair Trims:
  • "If your hair is like this, you won't see the growth. It will keep splitting up, it'll keep breaking...You need a straight line." —Ms. Tina [49:15]
• On Black Art:
  • “It made my girls appreciate beauty across the board. That it wasn't one standard of beauty, because when they turned the TV on, they saw the Brett girl...I took it very personally that I had to show them that there are other ways that, you know, everybody don't look like the Brett girl.” —Ms. Tina [56:10]
• When Ms. Tina feels most beautiful:
  • “I'm old school, so I feel most beautiful when I got my makeup on, my hair is right, my outfit is right…I'm not gonna give you one of those poetic nice, ‘listen, like I feel beaut beautiful in the morning first thing when the sun is kissing my face.’ No, I feel most beautiful when I go and, and gussy it on up.” —Ms. Tina [61:09]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Sacred Wash Day Ritual & Product Philosophy: [10:20–16:21]
• Salon as Healing Space & Influence on Daughters: [18:07–20:43]
• Texas Style/Aesthetic, Rodeo and Cowboy Culture: [21:01–27:42]
• Intergenerational Lessons: Parenting, Passing on Creativity: [51:49–55:21]
• Salon Culture & Advice for Stylists: [37:07–39:57]
• Sacred’s Product Development and Challenges: [45:32–47:57]
• Favorite Products/Innovations: [42:19–43:44]
• On Representation and Black Art: [55:31–57:10]
• Final Question—When Ms. Tina Feels Most Beautiful: [61:00–61:32]

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Episode Vibe & Closing Thoughts

This episode blends warmth, wisdom, nostalgia, and candid advice for mothers, creatives, and anyone on a self-care journey. Ms. Tina Knowles shines as both cultural matriarch and beauty innovator, sharing an inspiring reminder that to “mother the culture” is to nurture, connect, and empower—above all, to do it with boldness, faith, and a whole lot of love.

Transcript

[A]

Hello, hello, it's Brooke Devard, and you're listening to the Naked Beauty podcast. Today we are running it back to one of my all time favorite episodes of Naked Beauty, and it's my favorite for so many reasons. One, this was an episode that Sir Jona and I were so looking forward to doing together. When we first came together and said, okay, we're going to do this limited run interviewing people that are iconic to the culture, we were like, it has to be Ms. Tina. One of the things we got to talk to Ms. Tina about was just her experience raising these two amazing girls. And at the time, even though I wasn't, you know, publicly sharing it yet, I was pregnant. So it was really fun to just hear from Miss Tina about how to raise strong women and just her approach to raising Beyonce in salons. One of the questions I slipped in was like, how do you, you know, pay attention to two kids who are really different, knowing that I had a second on the way? And I just loved her answer. I'm recording this on a weekend, and JD's with me now. Jade, do you want to say hi to the Naked Beauty audience? Your podcast debut. Yeah, what else? What else? Well said. Okay. You guys heard her, her podcast debut. So it was this incredible interview for Sir John and I, and Sir John and I have still remained so close. I'm actually shooting with him tomorrow morning. So Monday morning, when you guys are listening to this, we are going to be on set. I convinced him to do something for Refinery 29, which I am so, so excited about. I am loving this job so much. It is a lot of work, but it's so rewarding. And I'm just loving being able to create on a higher level than I've been able to before. And the content's going to be so, so good. Make sure you stay tuned for that. Coming in September, we're doing a shoot that focuses on makeup and hair and nails and fashion. It's the fall style forecast, which we really tapped the best in the industry to do this storytelling. And when it comes to hair, I was really impressed with how much Tina Knowles knew. Right. I think when this episode came out, Sacred was again, it had just, just launched and so the jury was out. I think a lot of people thought I just loved Sacred because, of course, I love Beyonce and everything she does. But at this point, there's no debate about how good Sacred products are. Sacred, it is truly my go to the moisturizing shampoo, the clarifying shampoo, the deep conditioner, the protein restructuring mask, like the hair oil, the moisture lotion. I use that for my son. Like, the products are phenomenal, and I love that they've just come out with their protective collection. It's hair care specifically for protective styles. So many of us, myself included, bounce between protective styles to keep our hair healthy, and these products are formulated just for that. There's a sacred detangling spray. It's $28. A high slip spray claiming to make detangling two times faster, making the takedown process easier and preventing breakage. There's a sacred hair and scalp balm, $36, a balm to oil formula that's a 10 in one. It moisturizes dry scalps, it smooths frizz, it aids the braiding process. It blends leave out. It creates a protective barrier, adds shine, helps with flyaways, softens dry hair, and locks in mo again. The fact that they found a way to put all of this in one product is truly incredible. And the last product that I'm really excited about, the scalp refreshing spray. It's a no rinse spray to cleanse and refresh and cool down itchiness and tension, all while breaking down buildup and dead skin and neutralizing odor. That's $38. I love a good spray when my hair is in braids and I still need to get my hands on the sacred edge drops. I know people really love them. They're always sold out when I go. Enjoy our conversation with Ms. Tina, and I hope everyone has a beautiful, beautiful week ahead. Hello. Hello, this is Brooke Devard. You're listening to the Naked Beauty Podcast, and I am not alone. I am joined by my friend.

[B]

What's going on, people? Hey, people.

[A]

That is the voice of Sir John. So, Sir John, we just recorded our first podcast together as co hosts.

[B]

Yes, we did.

[A]

And we started at a pretty monumental guest.

[B]

Oh, my God, guys. It was such a nice way to have a dialogue. Even though I was. I'm inside, but sitting on the outside as the audience and like, you know, actually being able to be so curious with you and, you know, your curiosity as a mother, as, you know, as a wife, as someone who raises the village, actually really conditioned some of my understanding of her and the family. So it was. It was good.

[A]

Yeah. So interesting because one of the things that came through when we first talked was the influence your mother had on your life and your creative journey.

[B]

And shout out to Darcy.

[A]

Yes. And how she empowered you and made you just feel confident in your path as a creative. And that's what I also Took away from miss Tina Knowles. Right. Like, how to be a mother to creatives. We all know her daughters.

[B]

Absolutely. You know, I hope so.

[A]

Yes. We all know her daughters. But to be a mother to great talent is like a skill in itself. And as you said so brilliantly, she is also a mother to the culture.

[B]

Yes. You know, the thing is, what does it look like for a parent to truly be an advocate, to truly be an ally through that journey of creativity and seeing, you know, when we are artists or whenever we're creative or whenever we have an unorthodox view of what we want to achieve? You know, it's not easy. I know so many of my friends, their parents wanted them to go on a straight and narrow. Out of safety, out of concern, of course, out of protection for them instead of throwing a little gas on the fire and letting them just run and burn like a phoenix. I burned like a phoenix. Burned up, got shot down, got burned up again. But my mother really made me feel like any dream could be realized. And so what I took away from miss Tina is the fact that when your child has a dream, or when children have a dream, when children love the arts, it saves them. So I was just so blessed to hear another, to hear a mother who has cultivated all of us. We've all seen her cultivate the art and the creativity of these amazing queens, you know, and so that was so nourishing. It was like chicken soup for the soul for me.

[A]

Absolutely. And so there are the ways that she is a actual, you know, mother with her biological children, but also the passion that went into creating sacred. Right. I feel like as an entrepreneur and as someone that has a creative product, like your products become like your other children in a way. Like, she has mothered this incredible line that she, of course, co founded with Beyonce.

[B]

That's a good point. Right.

[A]

But I was blown away by the just passion she has for hair and how much like, love and intention went into creating Sacred.

[B]

You know what? This is a reminder. We don't need permission to, you know, to have self care. Self care isn't selfish, but it's a beautiful reminder that whenever you're loving on black hair, it's seen as also an act of rebellion. That's why they're pushing against the Crown Act. That's why, you know, until a certain time in the 19th, 20th century, you couldn't even have your hair out. I think it was against the law at some point to wear your hair unwrapped. Yeah.

[A]

The military, it's like, yeah, there Are all of these restrictions around black women in their hair and their hair.

[B]

And so loving on black hair is not only radical and it's something that is, you know, is seen as revolutionary. It actually teaches us all how to love on and be more 10 toes down and anchored in self. So I also saw this journey from salon to, you know, to brand to. To the community as almost like a love letter to the women.

[A]

Yes. And also I love that we got to talk to her about self care. And don't worry you all, we're going to get to the. We're going to get to the conversation, but just this final layer about mothering. It's like self care is mothering yourself. Right. We think about mothers as caretakers, but it is our job ultimately, it is our job to take care of ourselves. So I loved hearing her talk about burning the candle and putting on the plate. Like, I love that you asked her, like, well, tell us really what the self care day looks like for you.

[B]

Was it Al Green in the background? She still didn't answer that. I still don't know if it was a little Teddy Pendergrass, Teddy P. Or Al Green, but we gonna figure that out on the B side of this album. No pun intended.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So I love. I loved all the reminders about self care, honoring yourself, taking time for yourself. Sir John, do you want to introduce the episode?

[B]

Yes. Guys. So we had the chance, the beautiful ability to sit down with the mother to the culture, Ms. Tina, who I know and loved and worked with, you know, since I've been introduced to the people. And so to see this woman who understands how to find the special magic and all these different creatives. I've seen Missina spot so much beautiful talent and magic and everyone from hairstylists, stylists, wardrobe assistants, tailors, and photographers, you know, even what you saw in me when. When I came along. But what was beautiful about the conversation is that no matter what position you are in this business, it doesn't matter if you're adjacent to it or not. What's what. The takeaway is, how do I lean into myself to make myself feel feel better, feel alive, feel more anchored?

[A]

Yes. Yes. It's a beautiful conversation. Ms. Tina, welcome to Naked Beauty. We're so excited to have you.

[C]

I am so excited to be here, Ms. Tina.

[B]

Listen, I'm super excited to just have you here with me in this way and just honestly talk all things beauty, feeling, healing. And you've ushered in so many looks and the way that we see style, the way that we see beauty. You. You crafted that for so many people. Not just my generation, but for the world. From Destiny's Child on, you know.

[A]

Yes. The bills, bills, bills music video up until these beautiful products here. So we've got a lot to get into. But as I was sharing with you, I did my wash day. I did the full sacred ritual, and I listened to Cowboy Carter as I was washing my.

[C]

Perfect.

[A]

Okay. What songs from the album are on your playlist?

[C]

Definitely Two Most Wanted. That's my new favorite.

[A]

So good.

[C]

And I love Levi's jeans. I love that one. And of course, Daughter. That's one of my favorites because, you know, many people don't know, but Beyonce did arias and she sung in Italian in high school. She went to high school performing arts, and her voice teacher always said she could do opera if she wanted to. For me to hear her doing that now is just so heartwarming for me.

[B]

She sung opera at the Oscars one, right?

[C]

She did, yeah. And she sung in French.

[B]

Yeah, French, yeah. Yeah, I remember that.

[C]

It's been many years ago. Yeah.

[A]

That was such a moment. What do your wash days look like?

[C]

My wash days are. It's funny because we named this sacred. Yes. She wanted to name it sacred because it's very sacred. And especially I think, in our culture, in black culture, that's that one time that you are focusing only on yourself because as women, we just give so much of our time and energy. So I love wash day because I don't have the luxury of having a whole day. Like some people tell me all the stuff they do. I'm like, I don't have the time to do that. But this ritual, if you used all these products would be like maybe two hours, complete with blow drying and curling your hair and all of that. So I start off with the scalp scrub, which we talked about earlier. It's such a treat. I mean, I feel like I'm at the spa because of the mintiness. And then I follow up with the hydrating shampoo, which is so luxurious. And after that, I use either the reconstructor. You know, we were talking earlier about how much abuse black hair, whether you wear your own natural hair and you're curling it, you're touching it up, you're sleeping on it, you're matting it, you're combing, coloring, you know, any kind of chemicals, whatever you do, it's a lot. And our hair has less protein anyway. It's very porous. The coarser it is, the more delicate it is. And that's a Misconception a lot of people have because they think the coarser your hair is, the stronger it is, but it's quite the contrary. And so you have to put that protein back in. Protein is your first building blocks, but with protein, it dries your hair. So you have to have a balance of moisture with that and oils. And we need oils and moisture in our hair more so than. Than, you know, really straight textured hair.

[B]

So basically, protein is like the scaffolding. It seems like it is. Right.

[C]

I'm going use that.

[B]

Self care isn't selfish, and I know I've taken that from you. So, like, on days off, how do you unpack? What do you play music wise, what's on the playlist? Do you have a scent? A candle? What does that look like?

[C]

Well, I. Yes, I do. I burn candles. I have. I love incense. You know, it reminds me of my 70s days. I'm not smoking a weed. Prayer first thing in the morning. Every morning, my routine is to pray and to meditate on whatever I have to do that day.

[B]

That's.

[C]

Sometimes events get in the way, but when I can do that, my whole day is balanced. It's just important to me to take some time for myself because my life is super busy and I have a lot of grandchildren and I'm running around the. So just taking that time to say a prayer, to give myself some space, to kind of analyze my life and figure out what I need to do for myself is really, really important. That's all Self care. It's not just about, you know, having that spa day. I go get facial regularly.

[A]

Okay. Your skin is amazing. Like, you have incredible skin. Facials weekly. Is that what we need to be doing?

[C]

I do facials weekly and I believe in good products.

[A]

Okay. And I would love to know what your skincare routine looks like, but also what facials you get. Are you doing Hydra facials? Are you doing laser treatments to do.

[C]

A lot of hydro facials? Okay, now I'm into this prp.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I just did prp.

[C]

I just.

[A]

They take your blood. Oh, my God.

[C]

Took my blood?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I mean, the results are amazing.

[A]

Okay. I've. I was told I have to wait eight weeks to see a difference.

[C]

It's not true.

[A]

Okay. You are.

[C]

You're feeling it. And, you know, even, like, the older you get, the more hollow you become under your eyes. I mean, I still have some hollowness, but it changed my whole skin looks amazing. Thank you.

[A]

So did you. I'm going to continue with the prp. I love it growing up in Galveston, Texas, who were your beauty icons?

[C]

You know, my mom was a no nonsense, very simple woman. But I had a. My brother's girlfriend who I thought was the most beautiful, glamorous person in the world. She had an asymmetric haircut before anybody. A little convertible, very stylish. And she was the one who said, you gotta clean your face. Like, what are you doing at night when you have makeup on? You have to take your makeup off and you gotta always moisturize. And I still hear that ringing. I say it to my kids all the time. And, you know, you gotta use something on your skin and you gotta protect yourself from the sun and, you know, you gotta do all these things. But her voice is ringing in my ear. Her name was Lydia Matthews. She became my sister in law. Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I know that you're a huge lover of art in general. Always have been. I can't help but notice that a lot of sacred. Well, first of all, it was a secret for so long. Now it's out. And so what went into the sculptural aspect or elements of the way it all looks and feels? Because I feel like it's beauty in the vanity, in the shower, on the counter. So what is that about?

[C]

That was the idea, and it was all Beyonce. You know, she said, I want them to look like Egyptian sculpture. I want them to look so pretty that you want to put them in your shower or put them on your counter. So that was the challenge to create these very artistic bottles. And she had a whole lot to do with the different shapes because, you know, she'll just take, you know how I know she's going to take that paper out and start drawing shapes. And I want them, you know, really clean lines and not a color. She wanted the cream, she wanted it to look like stone, which was a really big challenge for us because we were told over and over, well, we can't do plastic to look like stone. It's really hard. It's gonna be expensive. But we kept pushing and the bottles actually look like stone.

[A]

And it's also nice in the shower because I feel like it doesn't slip. It's like it adds this extra grit and texture. So it just. It feels so good in the shower, too.

[C]

A lot of people have said that, you know, that's a really good sign selling feature. But people have said, oh, I love it because it's not slipping out. My shampoo slips out of my hand usually. So that's a good point. Yes.

[A]

And this has been in development for years.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So how long have you been using the sacred products? And how has your hair changed in that time?

[C]

Well, at least the last couple years.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And the formulas have changed. We've, you know, really made the formulas better and better.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

When I tell you that we sent everything back so many times that the manufacturers hated us, but we've been using it and experimenting with it. You can see that we have a test salon in the back that's popping all the time. I was here day one, and if we weren't here, there'd be somebody back there getting their hair shampooed and conditioned, because we're still testing on different types of hair. Not only did we do all this clinical testing, because a lot of times black women are not in that conversation. We are not the people that they're testing on. So that was really important for us to test it on black hair. And the products go across the board. I mean, everyone can benefit from these products. They're for everyone. But if you can nourish and strengthen black hair, then you got a winner. And so we use the products. Beyonce uses the products. You know, we wear hair pieces sometimes. Sometimes wear on our hair. You know, people say all the time when you don't ever see their hair, but it's not true. You just don't know that.

[B]

Amen.

[C]

It's our hair. Cause I know that, you know that we got healthy.

[B]

Yes. I've seen it all. Yeah, it's true.

[C]

But we've been using these products, and the products have saved us, like, a lot because we do a lot of color. And it has really saved our hair.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And kept it on our heads.

[A]

I love that it works for all hair types, but also like all ages. I think about that beautiful image and essence of you doing Beyonce's hair. What did that moment feel like for you?

[C]

It felt incredible. That moment felt really reminiscent of my life. I mean, I've been doing my kids hair since they were little kids. And the fact that it was braids involved, like, it just. I got teary eyed because my kids wore braids when they were little. You know, I owned a hair salon. I ain't have time to do that hair.

[B]

That's so true. Speaking of owning a hair salon, one thing I realized is that, you know, growing up and just being in this business and also being in beauty, but in all sides of it is so therapeutic and it seems so healing. So I remember we were at the house recently. You, Angie, were talking to me about the salon. Right. And so basically, this has been your business but also ministry and a healing for you for a very long time. Why is it so healing to us?

[C]

Well, I feel like the hair experience has always been spiritual to me. You know, my mom, even though she wasn't a hairstylist, she could press hair, she could style it, you know, curl it, do everything in terms of how to take care of it. And so she passed that on to me, and then I passed it on to my girls. And my girls are hair girls. Like, they could be hairstylists. Kelly, Solange, Beyonce, all of them could be hairstylists because they grew up in a hair salon. They grew up not only sweeping hair, but, like, we might let them blow dry a little bit and curl. They learned about products, and so that was their life. And they can attest to the fact that they are the women they are a lot because of being in that salon and seeing these powerful women. Beyonce just was in love with this opera singer that was my client who went to Germany, and she came back and she was telling her about it. She was like, I want to go to Germany. I'm going to be an opera singer. Well, she wasn't an opera singer. That never happened. But she loved the fact that she could travel and make a living, and she had all these beautiful stories. And we had, you know, a black congresswoman. I mean, think about being a little black girl and seeing a congresswoman that you see on TV and you see her everywhere. They saw examples of things that they could be and they could do, and the sky was the limit. Like, there was no limitation. And it was a spiritual experience because I would have people sit in my chair and tell me their whole life story, and I'm like. Because I was touching them. It's about touch. It's about you being kind to them and paying 100% attention to that person nobody else is in their world. It's a connection that happens there that I don't think you get with anything else. Yeah, you're shampooing their hair so they feeling, like, you know, relaxed, and they trust you. And that's why I take it as a very sacred experience.

[A]

Experience.

[C]

I am honored to do someone's hair. Yeah, I'm still in here. You know, Monday, I was here all day doing hair. I love it. And it's not just because of the results. It's the connection that I feel with that person and how you're pampering them and you're giving them a gift. Yeah, I love it.

[A]

Yeah, it's a very sacred experience. And this. So this was The Headliners salon in Houston, Texas. What makes Texas style unique? Because I feel like there's a very specific aesthetic that's associated with Texas.

[C]

Well, I can tell you when the girls first started, and I was doing their hair then, and they would say, oh, their hair is way too big. It's so country. Oh, my God. Does that have to do? You know, because the roller sets and wraps were in, and the bigger, the better.

[A]

Right?

[C]

And even to the point where one day, one of the. The girls there said, product manager said to me, Ms. Tina, you know, your hair would look so nice if you just didn't have it so big. Like, can you just kind of, like, tone it down? And it was very sweet because she was somebody I really liked, and she wasn't being critical. She was trying to help me, but I was like, girl, I'm gonna make this bigger. The next time, it's gonna be 10ft tall. Because I like big, bold hair. I like big, bold colors. And I started doing the wardrobe, and that was the wildest stuff. Sometimes I look at that, and I'm like, tina, you were crazy, girl. You were crazy. But the more bold, the brighter. That's Texas. You know, when people say everything is big in Texas, it's big. The bigger, the better.

[A]

We love it.

[B]

And also, that's a dopamine hit, too. Like, you know, those are ways to move the needle for yourself emotionally. And beauty is a feeling. One thing I've always noticed about you, Ms. Tina, is that you have a really specific way of understanding women's bodies and silhouettes. And, you know, when I look at, like, Kelly and Michelle, you know, b. So what does that. What is. What does that mean to address the concerns of women's silhouette?

[C]

You know, dressing for girls.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I got to find out from each girl what they felt the best about. And, you know, my mom always taught me, look at someone, and even if it's their hands, compliment them on their hands. And I'm getting emotional now, because you notice Beyonce. Somebody walks in, she'll say, oh, I like your shoes. I like your. Because it softens that person immediately, and it makes them feel good. And that might be the only compliment they got in a long time. But it's like, I think it's the same thing about the body. Everybody has something about themselves. And with the girls, we sat down and we filled out one day, wrote down what they felt good about. So whatever that person felt, it's looking at each person and saying, what do they feel good about? Let me accentuate that. My Kids are always like, mama, you cannot go up and start touching on people saying, you know, if you got a haircut to right here, or you should wear color or you should. They not asking you to analyze what they need to do, but it comes naturally to me just doing makeovers. I mean, that's my thing. Not necessarily a makeover, but, like, what is that person's style? So I love helping somebody find what their style is and what they feel good in and what they feel so that they just get a little pep in their step, have an attitude, you know, not a bad attitude of confident attitude.

[B]

Love.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I'm loving all of the kind of western aesthetic that's coming to the forefront now. Like, a cowboy hat just makes me feel powerful. Like, I put on my steps, and I was like, I feel like a different person. What I love about Cowboy Carter is how were basically reclaiming black people's history with rodeo culture, with cowboy culture that's so often overlooked. Has that always been a part of the esthetic of your family?

[C]

Absolutely. Look back at pictures.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

You know, we. We grew up, and my girls grew up in Houston, and the rodeo was a big part of their life. So every year when the rodeo came, it was time to get your cowboy boots, get your new hat, you know, be creative with your outfit, and go to the rodeo. Everybody dresses in Western at the rodeo. Have you been to the rodeo?

[A]

I have not had the pleasure of going to the rodeo yet.

[C]

I'm.

[A]

I'm ready to go.

[C]

It's a whole different thing. And everybody is so nice and friendly and nobody is tripping. Like, people are in line, and if you come up, they might let you get In Atlanta, you don't see that very often. No, but I just went a few Thursdays ago, and it was just a wonderful experience to see everybody in their boots and their creativity and their hats. It was something we looked forward to. When I was a kid, I went to Huntsville, Texas, which is like, maybe three hours from Houston. They had the big prison rodeo, and my daddy loved the prison rodeo. We loved the rodeo. We loved the food. The kids and myself, we associated with fried snickers and, you know, and churros and certain turkey legs and that kind of thing. But it's just an experience that you do not. I don't even know how to explain it. You have to experience it for yourself.

[B]

One thing I see that's coming through from what you're saying is that it's American style. I see black people in Houston. I know that there's a multicultural generation or people in Texas. And so have. Has it always been such a mosaic?

[C]

Absolutely. Ever since I can remember the Houston rodeo. It says many black people there as it is, white people. It's a balance, and everybody's getting along, and they. They having a good time. You know, it's like. That's why it's kind of shocking to me sometimes to hear some of the comments and stuff, because I have not. I didn't experience that at the rodeo, you know, or. But it's been a part I just saw on a video. I don't know where people get this stuff from, but it's Beyonce at, like, maybe five, and she's riding a horse. You know, she's just riding along. She's got a little western shirt on, and she can't be any more than five because they're in Houston is such a part that they. On Main street, they had little horses that go around on this little wood thing, and the kids would wear their little cowboy boots and go. It's just a part of the culture there. So it's really funny. I love that in one of her songs, she says, well, before y' all called me country, and now I'm not country enough. Because, you know, when she came out, you know, she had the little twang. People always say, oh, she just so country. She's so country. Like, it was a negative thing. We were like, yeah, we are. We're country. We're from Texas.

[A]

Right.

[C]

If you notice the costumes, I had them in cowboy hats.

[A]

You did all the time when they.

[C]

Were 15, 16 years old. It was very western because. And it's not just the outfit. It's the lifestyle. There are black trail riders everywhere in Houston. It's big groups of people. And, you know, Kyle boy, think about that name. Where do you think that name came from?

[B]

Is it a derogatory term for young black men? Boy, Exactly.

[C]

They called them boy, but they were cowboys because they worked with horses and animals. And it's ridiculous for someone to claim that and to try to, you know, put somebody else out of that culture. It doesn't make any kind of sense. And so what I think this has done and what I'm so proud of that Beyonce does constantly, whether it was black as king, showing African culture in such a beautiful, Rico royal way. And she gets a lot of heat for it all the time.

[B]

Super bowl, when we was there with the berets.

[C]

With the berets. You know, she's always pushing the envelope and making conversation happen. And, you know, I remember her telling me at Coachella, I want to. Because I was like, oh, I don't think those people got it tonight. I was in the front and I was like, when you start doing all that fraternity stuff, Big band.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

And I was like, they were looking so confused. And I said, this girl came and asked me, was the black national anthem your new single?

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

And I said, they not getting it. You not connecting. I'm really worried because she had a second week. And I remember her looking at me and saying, mom, some people get it today, some people get it next week, some people get it next year. But I want them to go research what that is and what that means, and I want them to understand it and create conversation. I feel like I was put not just to be an entertainer, but to kind of, you know, ring the bell and get people educated. And so this is yet another one. And as a mother, I'm always scared because I'm like, why you gotta be the. Let somebody else do it this time. You know, she feels like it's her job to. To educate not only. And she sneaks that little stuff in there to make you go think and research.

[B]

Be ringing bells.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I want to talk about your mother, Agnes Darion, who is a self taught seamstress. What did she teach you about how to show up in the world and style and self presentation?

[C]

Well, my mom was like, I mean, she was a true renaissance woman and she just could do everything. My mom built our kitchen cabinets. You know, she didn't physically build them. She went and found a book at a garage sale on how to build cabinets. And my daddy and my brothers saw the wood, but it was all her. She made this little raggedy house look so nice. It was like in Coming to America, you walk in there, you like, wow. But she's upholstered the furniture and wallpapered the walls, and she was just somebody who had no money but a ton of style.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And she passed that on to me. She was like, you know, it's easy to go buy expensive stuff, but create your own stuff, you know, create your own style. Let people follow you.

[B]

Amen.

[C]

And so she really instilled that in me, and I instilled it in my girls. And I thank God for her. I really do. If she was in a different place at a different time, because she was the most amazing designer. She made, you know, ball gowns and dresses for women in Galveston, and beaded jacket. She was a beater.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

So she was just so creative that, you know, we were so poor, we had no money. But we were like the best dressed kids.

[B]

True style.

[A]

I always ask Sir John, who's so gifted with makeup, like, how did you know that this could be your calling? So what about hair specifically called you to it? And when did you know I'm not just good at hair, I'm excellent at hair. Like, I can really do this.

[C]

You know, I had a nephew, Johnny, who's become famous now.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

But me and Johnny had every hair color there was. You know, when I was like 13, I was dying my hair. We were dyeing it different colors and doing different haircuts. He designed clothes and made them, and that's where I learned from him and my mom. And he was amazing, ahead of his time. But we were always into fashion. And part of the fashion was hair. So we would look in the magazines and see the big bouffant hair or see the asymmetrical haircut, and we would just mock it and try to recreate those things. And I think when I really found out, because I was always doing everybody's hair, and for prom, I did my girlfriend's hair. I designed their dresses. Like I was a little makeover queen way back then. But I think when I really realized it is when I had to make a living.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And I haven't worked in four years because I've been, you know, my. My biggest subject in life is My Little Pony with Beyonce. Cause that was my best friend. My vocabulary shrank and. And I was like, what am I gonna do to make a living? Cause I don't wanna be in this position. And I started just going to beauty school and doing hair. I closed in my carport and made it into, like a hair salon. So. And that's a bad thing to say. Cause I was bootlegging back then, but just learning and getting my skills up. And I just said, God. And what I was able to do in beauty school is go to. Because I was married and everybody else in beauty school, I was 32 years old, and everybody else was like, 18, 19. And I could afford to go to the hair shows and take classes. So I took a class from Paul Mitchell.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

John Atchison. I would act like I was already a hairstylist because you were supposed to be licensed. And I would just register for these cutting classes. And what I found is that the science of hair I was very interested in. So when everybody else was not interested in the theory part of it, I was obsessed with it because I wanted to know how to keep it healthy. And. And I never worked for another person.

[B]

Amen to that. Come on, now.

[C]

I opened my hair salon. Within six months, I moved to a beautiful location. Almost immediately, I started planning the other new location. And my hair salon at one time had 24 stylists, so that was unheard of. And it was very professional. And when it comes to hair, just my search of knowledge and education and training and that I trained so much, and I pass that training on to my stylist, I just feel very, very confident in that world. Because, you know, I was told all these myths that black hair can't have a relaxer. At the time, everybody had a relaxer in Texas. Cause, you know, it's humid, and you can't have relaxer, and you can't have color, too. You got to pick and choose which one. And I was like, why? I've been having color on my hair and a relaxer my whole life. And I started, you know, just really delving into how can I keep this hair in there? And at the time, I had to buy white products for the science and development. But then I still use hot olive oil. I still use egg whites. I mix mayonnaise up. I had to mix my own stuff. And I used black products for oils and butters, so I mixed these, too. And so the dream always was that we could create a product that had both in it, that we could spend as much money and time on the science as we did on the other ingredients. And to give someone one product that can do everything. And that's why so many steps, because you don't have to do all the steps. We give you a prescription, you take a quiz to find out what your personal needs are. And that was really important to Beyonce and to myself, that people have education.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So a big part of this is, if you see our videos, you'll see that we're educating. We're not just saying, oh, you put this on your hair, but we're telling you why it's working.

[B]

Yeah. You know what's funny is that I also know how you are behind the scenes. And so I've seen, first of all, Neil, my partner in crime, you from saying Kim Kimball, who was the Olympics of hair, right?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

But even when Jawara, when we shot the CR cover, his big thing was like, I know. B's great, but I want Ms. Tina to like my work.

[C]

I know.

[B]

Like, that was the thing. And these are artists at the top of their game. But they were like, if this, your seal of approval, meant so much to them in the Culture. So I got a question. I know that you're, like, a buff of, like, knowledge when it comes to fashion history and so in hair history. So if you could bring back any hairstyle from any period and make it modern right now, and we would be all rocking and wearing it, I would have, like, a Jackson Fry row. What a. What a pick. Like, I would love a Jackson 5 row.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

But I lost my hair in the 90s, so what would you have?

[C]

I probably would have. I'm trying to think of what was my favorite hairstyle. I love the. The layers and flips.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I just thought that was such a 76 look. It's. It's 70.

[A]

Like the kind of like.

[C]

Yeah, like. Like your hair. I love the way your hair is flipped. Like it's a bob, but it's got, like, so some other flare going on. So just to flip the hair back or, you know, something that swings and move. I love movement in hair. I'll tell you what was a favorite era for me was when you take your hair and slick it back and you had this big old bouffant flip.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I wore that for a long time.

[B]

Like I am.

[C]

That was my thing.

[B]

Like.

[C]

Like I am.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The COVID I am.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. And that was her hair.

[C]

No, no, no. Not I am. That was her hair. But now I am more like. There's a video that we did. I had the time of my life. I made all the clothes for it. It was set back in the 70s. They're doing a frug and gimme body.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Come on now. Come on.

[B]

V Day.

[C]

Those hairstyles.

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

They were the bomb.

[C]

I loved them.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

So I'm missing it. When we think about salon culture, there's a lot that's changed. A lot of people don't have that emotional connection to their clients the way they used to.

[A]

And just to add to that, Sir John, because you probably haven't seen these booking websites. They tell you come with your hair washed and blow dried. I was just gonna say that they have all of these insane policies. Before you even step in the door, you already don't feel welcome.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And it sounds like you really went out of your way to cultivate this warm, loving environment at your salon at Headliners. So, yeah. What do you think about Modern Salon?

[C]

So I'm so sad about that. We were just talking about that, Neil and I, and I was like, my connection to someone is just analyzing their hair, going through it before they even water touches their hair. They Came in for an analysis. We had a computer before anybody, so we would look up their last service if they had been in. But we would sit there and go through their hair and analyze the scalp and the hair that immediately connected you to that person. They felt like you cared. And we did. And then we did a prescription for them. This is what you need today. You need this, this, and this. You need a trim. You know, I can't even imagine someone coming to me. And what if they used some really cheap, damaging shampoo? What if they use some Liquid dawn on their hair, you know, and they didn't condition it, and they're coming in and. And I'm putting heat on their hair. Like, I want to know what you put in your hair. Every step counts. So I don't understand that culture. I'm really against it.

[B]

So what advice do you have to younger stylists?

[C]

My advice to younger stylists is connect with your client.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

See your client. Like, they're a special person. I knew everything about my clients. Like, I knew what they did for a living. I talked to them. That experience was their relaxation. That was their day. That was their wash day.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? I didn't keep them there all day. I valued their time. We got them in and out, but we gave them care and love, you know, and that was taught at the salon. If you didn't get started on someone and they waited past 15 minutes, they got their service free. Guess. Guess how many times that happened to people. One time they did half for free. Trust me, after that, if you weren't friendly and kind, we didn't allow gossip. If you were caught gossiping, you were out the door.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So I don't believe that salon culture.

[B]

It'S still like that.

[C]

It's still like that in our environment, you know that we don't play that. So we trained people. And you couldn't work at my salon unless you came straight out of beauty school. If you had worked at a salon, we didn't take you because I didn't want you to learn the bad habits. You had to come in, be professional, and learn. And part of that was valuing people, seeing people, understanding them, and caring. How do you care about somebody if you don't even know what they did before they came or what they put on their hair? It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the feedback about Sacred from hairstylists have been so overwhelmingly positive. Just, like, seeing it at the hair salon. Like, I've even brought it to my hair salon. They're like, oh, I've been wanting to try this. And they're always blown away by the products. And you worked closely with hairstylists on the development of. Of the products. What has it been like to see this in people's hands, to see them experience it after all of this time working on it?

[C]

You know, I talk about this every day. I'm so excited because this product, the way it's been accepted by hairstylists. Hairstylists are, like, the lowest on the totem pole. We just never got the love and the respect. And, you know, now I see that happening. And so part of what sacred. But what was the vision for it is to really highlight the stylist. So we take their videos. Like, I post their videos, and they take the time and look how professional they are. I'm learning from them every day because they. They know how to do a shoot and make it really cool and fast. And, you know, but I love that the people are promoting the product for us. It's not about Beyonce. It's not about a celebrity brand. You know, you and I talked about that, and I was like, listen, I have so much confidence in this product that people, if they try it, they're gonna like it. They're gonna love it. And because there's so much in there for you to use for whatever your purpose is, you might not like everything, but there's gonna be something in there that works for you. And I think that's the proof in the pudding. It's not about celebrity. It can't be about Beyonce. It has to be. This product has to stand on its own. And I feel like it does. And the testament to that is the hairstylist that's out there doing videos and being so excited about this product.

[B]

Yeah. You know, you have something when someone outside of the ecosystem of the Beehive is. Is really all about the product.

[C]

And I've seen some people do videos that actually came to the table trying to find something wrong.

[A]

Oh, I've seen those too.

[C]

And hate on the product. And they have to come back and say, I was trying to hate. This is really good.

[A]

This is good.

[C]

You know, and that is the best feeling in the world for me.

[B]

That is the best feeling.

[C]

Because if you can please a hater.

[B]

Okay, listen, you know, you got something.

[A]

Good other than the clarifying shampoo. Do you have other, like, just absolute favorites from the line?

[C]

Well, I love the reconstructive. You know, again, I'm just adamant about that. And the rice and rose treatment. The fact that I Can do rice?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

You know, I did it on my hair last night that I can instantly have that. And that. The smell and the experience is so soothing. It's innovative. That's the most innovative thing I've seen in a long time. But it's a ritual. We call it a ritual because you pour it on. It comes with a nozzle, which was put in there for people who have problem areas, and you want to focus on it, but it's really a pouring vessel, so you should pour it over the hair. It just feels like. It feels like you're in a spa. But test your strength after that. Like, put it on. It comes with a silk rinse. Like, before you do it, pull your curl and see how it springs back. Then pull it back after that. Because I've literally seen people's hair coming out in a bowl. The bowl just hair everywhere. We do the rice treatment, and you maybe get one or two strands. It literally stops breakage.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In his tracks.

[A]

Yeah. I saw Dr. Carey did something on TikTok, just running a comb through. And that's to your point about the education. It's so important that Sacred educates. Even if you don't buy the products, you can follow the social accounts and learn about taking care of your hair.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. That's great.

[B]

So I work with my sister. My sister's like, my producer, which I love. And you've always worked with family. Like, you always been in such a creative way. So, like, what is it like actually working with your daughter in such a. In such a way creatively? Is it like, okay, give and take? Is it like, oh, no, I think I know better. I mean, you are Mama. So, like, what's up?

[C]

I've been in there.

[B]

I know. So I want you to explain it.

[C]

I've seen it firsthand. Sometimes it's the best thing in the world.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[C]

Because, you know, I love my kids, and so it's an honor to be. To be able to have a reason to see my. My children all the time. And I work with, you know, all of them in some capacity. But working with BE on this product line has been. It's been the best because we both share a passion for hair. You know, we're just a hair family. And I've said this many times that fashion saved my family's life. And I mean, by that, that emotionally, it was a connection. It's how we all got together and, you know, sold and made our clothes and economically, because, you know, we were a really poor family. But that was Our pride. And, yeah, we might not have any money, but we're going to show up looking sharp.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And you can't touch us on that one, you know? So it was a sense of pride, it was a sense of camaraderie, and it was a sense of making a living. Because my mom always said, if you could do some hair, you will never be broke. And it's the truth. You know, I see people in college doing haircuts. I'm sure you experience. Experienced that, doing people's hair. You know, you always have. Have a. Something to fall back on. And it's monetary, but it. Hair is a very much part of that whole scenario with my family. It's passed on generation to generation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As Sir John and I were talking about how great the products are, we were like, did they ever run into challenges? Like you would think at your level, it's kind of like all green lights, like, whatever you need, we can make it happen. I see the face you're giving me. So what challenges did you come across as you were developing this product where you were like, no, we have to overcome this. We have to get it right more.

[C]

So the focus has been 100% on the product. It was not marketing. You know, we dealt with a company that. That I was like, they got to get out of here. Because their whole thing was, why do y' all want to put honey in. In a product? You know, every black product has honey. And I'm like, yeah, it's a reason for that. It's a humectant.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It's wonderful. Beyonce has bees. Like, we know the power of honey, but they were like, well, don't do the honey. Let's just do the comb as a marketing thing since it connects to her. A lot of brands focus on the marketing concept of, oh, we got Beyonce, we got. We got the beehive. We're going to do honeybee this, and we're going to. That is not what this product is. This product is blood, sweat, and tears in what is effective and what's going to work. So the challenges that we had was the product working. It's a big challenge when you get it and you love it and you think it's amazing. And then the boss says, y' all don't have enough slip in that you need to go back to the drawing board. Or even Neil comes in, he's like, oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Oh, no. I don't like the way y' all are approaching applying that. You know, we need a spray bottle. And we like, oh, God. Because we have to go back to the drawing board. So the biggest challenge has been people who challenge the heck out of you. Because at sometimes we were like, is this ever going to satisfy her dog? You know, But I'm so happy that she challenged us. And we had to. You know, we put this. The launch back twice. Cost us millions of dollars. But we did it because it wasn't. She was like, I'm sorry, y'.

[A]

All.

[C]

It's not ready yet. We were like, what?

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

You know, after working so hard on this, because it took all together six years.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So it's not something that came overnight. And the challenges have been just somebody not saying it's good enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's been the biggest challenge, is that we want it to be the very best.

[A]

Get it right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The way the products smell is incredible. That Temple Oud scent with the sandalwood and the vetiver, it elevates the whole experience. How did you land on that scent?

[C]

It was Beyonce. She was like, I want this to be sort of woodsy and sexy. I don't want you to smell like, you know, that's your perfume.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Have it fight with your fragrance. I want something that is just, you know, it says spa, but it's not minty. It was a challenge, too, and we went through many, many, many cents. And you have to go through a whole process. It doesn't work with the product.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Like, people don't understand what all goes into this and how much testing you have to do, because if you put one different ingredient in there, it can throw the whole chemistry off, and you have to start all over again.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So she's a smell person, so she really wanted it to be subtle. And just what you said, I mean, you described it perfectly.

[A]

Yeah. It really adds to the experience. I also know you're a big advocate for trims. We saw you trimming all the beauty editors hair. What is so important about trimming your hair for it to be its healthiest? Because a lot of people are like, oh, I want to grow my hair. I don't want to cut it. I don't want to trim it. Or they want to do these, like, tiny little dusting trims.

[C]

I'm a big fan of trims. Because think about this. Just this is very logical. Your hair grows at least a half an inch a month. So if it grows a half an inch, that's about that much. Right. And if you wait six to eight weeks and you trim only this much, think about how much growth you get in six Months. But your hair has to be a straight line because if your hair is like this, you won't see the growth. It will keep splitting up, it'll keep breaking. And it is the most frustrating thing to me for someone to have, you know, this thick weight and then have strings at the end because there's nothing to support it. It's kind of like common sense. If you have some weight to support something, then it doesn't break. But if it's some little weak strands hanging, any little thing is going to break it off. It's going to go. So you want, you need a straight line.

[B]

I never heard that.

[C]

Yeah. So I explained it. That's the way I explain it to my clients. And then they're like, okay, I'm a trust you. But in six months, they are so happy. They will come to me, say it's time for my trim.

[B]

Boom.

[C]

And I'm like, well, you know, you look okay. No, I want my trim. Because they see the growth that happens with that.

[A]

Yes. And your hair just looks so much better when you don't have those dead ends. Yes.

[B]

So missing. What can you imagine the legacy of sacred to be?

[C]

I think the legacy should be, like you said, self care. You should care about your hair, about your hair. It's an extension of your body. It doesn't matter whether you wear it long, whether you want your hair short, you know, very short. That hair should be shiny and healthy and strong. Right. So people think it's about long. It's not about growing your hair. That's why we love natural hair. We love locks. We, we've tested this on every single hairstyle and it's worked on every hairstyle. So that's what we want the legacy to be, that this came and it worked.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

You know, it's did, it did its job and it left it better than, you know, when it came.

[B]

I love it. You feel like growing my hair back?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

I'm joking. I like, I like being boy. I like being bald.

[A]

Speaking of legacy, as a mother, I have a three year old son and I think about how different your daughters are and how I would imagine you gave them space to kind of grow into their own people. How are you able to kind of respect their differences but allow them to tap into their own unique creativity?

[C]

What's a great question. I think it starts when they're very young. My girls are very, very different. You know, they're a lot alike in a lot of ways. Their creativity, their love of art, they're good hearts. But, you know, they. They have very, very different aesthetics. They have very different ideas about things. And so you have to let them be them. And so I saw very early on that they had two totally different personalities. I never tried to dress them alike. I never tried to put the other one. Well, I won't say that I didn't try to put them in each other's space because I wanted them to be close. But them having their own identity is so, so important. And one of the things that I did that I tell people all the time, I think it's one of the best things that I did, was to give them each their own time. Because when you have two kids and you're busy, like I was busy and working so hard and always doing things, it's easier to take them someplace together.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

But my ex husband and I both believe very much. Like, he would take one to lunch, and then he would take the other one to lunch, knock them together, because they need their own individual time. And Solange was five years younger than Beyonce, and Beyonce was like this little local star. And so we named Wednesdays. I started taking Wednesdays off, and that was Solange Day. So everybody else knew to, you know, if it ain't about salons, then, you know, and it. It changed her whole.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Feeling about things. And you got to make them important. And you gotta understand what they like might not be what you think is best for them. And you gotta celebrate and support whatever their choices are. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So when I remember, I wasn't athletic. Right. But I was. I was an artist. When I was really young, my mother really supported that and found ways to really. It saved me. Art saved me as a child. And so when having. I've seen you sacrifice so much, you talk about it, you know, about how you always were there for the girls and you sacrifice yourself, and a lot of mothers do. But when you have creative children, how do you cultivate or how do you help that creativity to flower?

[C]

I think that because I was a creative child, very creative child, not a studious child. You know, I was good with a C. So when I had kids, you know, I had friends that my child has to have A's and they have to do. Listen, I was the one saying, let's shoot hooky today and go down to the beach. Or, you know, you have something creative that they wanted to do, let's go to the museum and look at some art or whatever.

[A]

And.

[C]

And I pass that on to my kids because they are that way. They try to look for the creative thing. And the thing that. That makes their kids tick and they celebrate that. So I think it was easy for me because, you know, my mom wasn't like that. My mom wasn't like, oh, you got to have straight A's and you got to do this, and you got to achieve and achieve and achieve. She understood the creative thing because I'd rather be cutting up something, making a. Some little dog clothes or making myself clothes or, you know, and doing hair and being in the mirror, like, trying to put on makeup or whatever. She encouraged it, and she didn't put limitations on me. So it was real easy for me to do that with my kids, and it's easier with my grandchildren because I really indulge them in creative stuff.

[A]

I love to hear that so many people, parents specifically, stifle their own children's creativity. They stifle. Stifle it, and they don't give it the space and room to breathe.

[C]

Right.

[B]

What do you feel like art lends itself to for younger people in our communities?

[C]

I think art stimulates all this creativity, you know, and images, positive images of people who look like you. When my kids were growing up, I made sure that there were all of these positive images, whether they. And we had art always. And I couldn't afford the art that I have now, of course. But the art that I had was, you know, whether it was prints or whatever, it was every shade, every shape, every. It made my girls appreciate beauty across the board. That it wasn't one standard of beauty, because when they turned the TV on, they saw the Brett girl. You know, they saw the. The. What's that little baby?

[B]

The Gerber baby.

[C]

The Gerber baby. And so I had to. I took it very personally that I had to show them that there are other ways that, you know, everybody don't look like the Brett girl, because we weren't seeing images of it. I didn't see it at all when I was younger.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I. I was obsessed with Julia.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know. That was Diane Carroll.

[A]

Like, I thought she.

[C]

Yes. Thank God for that. But that was the first time I really saw this articulate, beautiful nurse that.

[B]

You know, black woman.

[C]

Black woman, confident and well spoken. I was like, you know, and so I felt it necessary to put those images in my house. So I always had black art surrounding, and that did something for my kids and, you know, their ability to. To understand that there's not just one standard of beauty.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. What do you do now in the arts? I know you have a.

[C]

You.

[B]

You. Every year you have A gala. But why do artists mean so much to you personally?

[C]

Well, it's Waco Theater center, and part of what we do is expose kids, inner city kids, to art and to etiquette and to the things that I didn't have access to when I was younger. That's part of it. But a big part of it is we put on shows and we promote artists that don't necessarily, necessarily get the.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

The play, and they get to, you know, put their things in our gallery. It's a theater. It's not only visual art, but it's performing art. That to me, like you said, you said it better than anybody. Art saved your life when you were little. Art saves so many kids lives. Our kids that we mentor, you know, they are out of these kids, they come to us saying they don't know what they like, they don't know what they want to do, and they leave. We have so many painters, so many sculptors, so many dancers, so many. Most of them are interested in the arts. Actors behind the cameras. They didn't even know that that existed until you exposed them to it. So it's so important for exposure. I was 14 when I went to see Alvin Ailey. It totally changed my life. Oh, I saw all those beautiful black people up there dancing, and I was like the people's cars that they were driving because I came from Galveston, like 50 miles away. I went to a fancy restaurant, which I later found out was equivalent to Applebee, but to me, it was fancy exposure. But that art, that. That Alvin Ailey, you know, that's the first thing that we do for our kids when we take them in. We take them see Alvin A.

[A]

Yes. Revelations.

[C]

Revelations.

[A]

It's just like a beautiful piece of art. I remember being young and seeing it and thinking, wow, like, this is dance, you know?

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's bigger than a dance. It's like the dance, but the. The set.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

The clothing, tribal. Everything is. It's art.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

You know the music.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So I know when I first came along, you really were the first person to embrace you and Angie, actually. Right. And so I know that you've also really ushered in a generation of creatives, like photographers. You can spot talent. And videographers know when someone's good at hair styling, makeup, wardrobe. So, like, what is it when you see young creatives? What do you find that that makes them special?

[C]

I can really spot people that are the people that are, like, special. It's the way they carry themselves. It's the way they smile, you know, even like you walk in and you can instantly see somebody who loves, you know, being behind that camera. It's like a sparkle in their eye or something special like you. Your talent speaks for itself but it was also not just the talent. It was like you were curious. You always curious, you nosy, you like, you want to know why and how. And you know, it's a different kind of thing that I see in people. It's that thirstiness that they want for knowledge and for. And they have a good attitude because they are not mad that they at work. You know, when I walked in here, this young man that's behind the camera, he was smiling. How you doing? He's been happy, he's like anxious to do his job. And I can see it. But the people that walk around like either arrogant or like I'm doing you a favor and I don't fool with them because I feel like that's gonna be short lived, you know, you gotta be hungry and humble.

[B]

Hungry, humble.

[A]

Well, we're getting to our final question which I've asked every guest. I've had on naked beauty since the beginning, which is when do you feel most beautiful?

[C]

I'm old school, so I feel most beautiful when I got my makeup on, my hair is right, my outfit is right. I'm not gonna be all give you one of those poetic nice, listen, like I feel beaut beautiful in the morning first thing when the sun is kissing my face. No, I feel most beautiful when I go and, and gussy it on up.

[B]

You know, Texas style. I love it.

[A]

We love it, love it. It's been such an honor talking to you, hearing more from you, learning from you. This has been so great, right?

[B]

This is so good. Oh my God, this is so good. This is so good.

[A]

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[C]

Wait, that's the actual fire alarm.

[B]

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[A]

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Don't worry, be warranty for 20% off our plans. Visit ahs.com listen see ahs.com contracts for coverage details including limit amounts, fees limitations and exclusions.