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- [00:04]
Brooke Devard
Hello. Hello, this is Brooke Devard and you're listening to the Naked Beauty podcast. Today I am joined by my good friend Erica Chitty to talk all things postpartum. She has deep experience in this work. If you all listen to Naked Beauty, you've heard her on the show before. She is just a wealth of knowledge and information. And this topic is one that, of course, is very close to me, given that I'm, you know, recently postpartum. Jade is five months old now. We are still breastfeeding. Now she's teething. We're figuring out her sleep schedule. I've traveled, I've pumped, I've. I've done a lot in these past five months. It's been joyous, but it hasn't always been easy. And there's something that I would love to share with you all about my postpartum period that, you know, I haven't shared it on social media. I think it's one of those things that I feel very close to you all as listeners and I can share with you. But something really scary happened to me when I delivered. I didn't know it was scary at the time, but I delivered. My delivery was fairly quick, actually. I wasn't pushing for a long time. I think we counted like 10 pushes in 15 minutes. Jade was out. But then getting the placenta out. My doctor, who I love, I love my doctor, she's such a great doctor, very empathetic, very caring. She was down there for a long time, a long time. And I was sort of like, what is going on? And she was saying, the placenta, it's a little sticky. It's not, you know, moving out as easily as, you know, they anticipated. Everything's great. I have my baby now. When you come home from the hospital, you are in diapers, you are using ice pads on your vagina because it is literally sore and you're bleeding a lot. You're bleeding a lot. In the days after your birth, I continued bleeding up until six weeks. Normally, you're not bleeding for that long after you deliver. This was also my second baby, so I could remember, you know, just what my bleeding patterns were like with the first. I called my doctor's office, I said, I'm still bleeding. I'm concerned. They said, oh, you could have gotten your period already, which does happen to some women, even if they're breastfeeding. But I said, no, it's not my period. Something just feels off. Something just doesn't feel right. So what I did was I requested at my 6 week appointment I wanted to get an ultrasound and they said that's not really common to do at your six week appointment. But I said, okay, I just want it. I feel like there's something off. There's something. I feel like I could still have retained placenta. It's very rare that this happens, but it does happen to people. Sure enough, when I did the ultrasound, there it was. I had retained placenta that was not removed fully during my labor and delivery. So that's very dangerous. Your whole body can go into shock, you can get very sick. I mean, you can die from having retained placenta. It's a very serious thing if it's not caught. I'm so grateful that I listened to my body, that I advocated for myself, that I requested to do the ultrasound, that I just knew, okay, something's not adding up here. And all of this happened during the LA fires. The day that I did the ultrasound, it was two days before the fire started. And then I had to basically do this emergency removal of the placenta. It's called a dnc. You basically go under full anesthesia, you're not awake, and then they go in and they kind of scrape out or remove the retained placenta. I found out I had this two days before the fire started. Then I had. Of course, obviously, I'm like freaking out. I want it out of me. The fires begin, we evacuate. We have to take all of our belongings. We're down in Palm Desert. I then have to come back to LA while the fires are still happening to get this emergency surgery so I can get the placenta out of me. It was a lot. It was very stressful. I was worried about my milk supply. In addition to the fires going on, all of the power in our house was out. So all of my milk that was in the fridge was gone. It was a lot to go through in a very small period of time, but I got through it. I got through it. And I think that for people listening to this that are pregnant or newly in the postpartum period, there are ups and downs, there are highs and lows. There is that beautiful feeling of carrying your baby. But there are also things that can go very, very wrong, things that you have no control over. And I think we feel more empowered the more that we know. And that is what the spirit of this episode is about. Information is power. One thing that Erica shares at the end of this episode is clarity, is kindness. It is so important to go into the postpartum period with your eyes wide open. I would also encourage people to listen to this episode, even if you have no plans of having a baby, because there are people around you and people in your community that are going through some of the things that we're talking about and the more that you're aware that this is what happens, you can be a better support system to other people and for soon to be moms and new moms, you can be a better support system to yourself when you know more. So I wanted to be vulnerable and share with you all some of the things that I went through in my postpartum period. I'm so grateful to be in good health. I'm so grateful that Jade is in good health. And again, highs and lows. We're going to get into this conversation with Erica Chitty. Thank you so much for listening to the Naked Beauty Podcast. Let's get into it. There is truly so much to love about la, which is why today's episode is brought to you by Los Angeles tourism, food and drink, shopping and fashion, and just the pure nature and beauty of la. One of the things that I started doing the moment I moved here was integrating hikes into my morning routine. I wake up, I go to this gorgeous canyon and I just take in the nature around me and it's so great to be surrounded by nature. But then you have this vibrant city here, an amazing restaurant scene, great cocktail, the shopping and fashion. Let's talk about some of the best shops in la. If you've been into Maxfield, you know some of the most incredible high end designer you can find. H. Lorenzo has such an interesting curated buy. There's a Dover street market here. I mean the LA fashion scene is honestly very underrated and there's some very exciting things happening in the design community here. If interior design is more your thing, there are incredible furniture shops here. You can shop vintage, you can shop from contemporary designers, you really can shop your way through all of Los Angeles. And if you're someone who loves wellness and skin care, there are so many incredible spas and skincare destinations here in Los Angeles. There is so much to discover. Find more ways to love la@discover la.com we love LA. Let's get back into the episode. Erica, welcome back to Naked Beauty.
- [07:00]
Erica Chitty
Thank you for having me. Always happy to be here with you.
- [07:05]
Brooke Devard
There is no one I would rather have this postpartum discussion with because I think one postpartum is such a black box before you go through it and you are so knowledgeable about it. But two, it's a very vulnerable topic. So I'm happy to be Talking to a friend about it because it's not something that's necessarily always easy to open up about. So I feel like I can be.
- [07:25]
Erica Chitty
Vulnerable with you always, always here for that.
- [07:29]
Brooke Devard
So I think it would be helpful for people that don't know to give a bit about your background and why you know so much about postpartum.
- [07:37]
Erica Chitty
Yeah. So I was a full spectrum doula for about 15 years. I'm retired now. I've been retired for a few years. But full spectrum meant I did births and I also did postpartum. I also did fertility dueling period dueling. Anything to do with your uterus, your hormones and making decisions or going through transitions, that was, that was my job, a job I loved very much. And I really love postpartum work, especially in the early part of my career, because I think what most people don't realize about parenthood and I actually just did a, I'm just a whole thing about this on my substack answering this question. But people don't realize the discipline that's required during the postpartum period. The postpartum period is so about routine and the routine being driven by your baby for the most part, unless there was some type of really challenging traumatic birth or baby was a nicu, you really are going to essentially be learning a whole new skill set. And that's even when it's your second baby. Because I'm sure, as you know, even though you had your first on a nice flow, they have their routine, he's doing his thing, second baby. It's like, how do we figure out the counterbalance between what he needs and what new baby needs? If most people learn to go into the postpartum phase, and by the way, postpartum is a physiological phase, nothing to do with postpartum mood disorders, which are depression, anxiety, OCD, psychosis, etc. Postpartum is normal. It's what happens to your baby. It just means post partum baby. Post birth. Post birth. Yes, post birth is normal and we need to normalize it because I think a lot of people say I had postpartum and they're referring to some type of mental issue. But if most people, if more people went into the postpartum period understanding that it's going to require discipline and a lot of minimizing of distraction in order to hyper focus on your baby and yourself and your body, they would be a lot better off. I feel like a lot of people think postpartum is going to be some kind of delight. I'm going to have like an immediate schedule. It's all going to make sense. And it's none of that. It's a constant adaptation process that's so iterative. You're like, this was great for about three days and then it's like, well, guess you got to try something else now. And most people just don't know that. And that's actually what sets people. That's the cliff. That's the cliff for the depression.
- [10:23]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [10:24]
Erica Chitty
Cliff for the anxiety is not knowing. Oh, it's like, oh. It's constant iteration for the first three to six months.
- [10:32]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [10:33]
Erica Chitty
Thing that's constant is how much it changes.
- [10:35]
Brooke Devard
I love what you said about getting rid of distractions. I, for the first time in basically my entire adult life, deleted social media off of my phone, told me, Yes. I deleted TikTok. I deleted Instagram because I didn't want those distractions. I wanted to focus on myself and focus on my baby. I didn't want to be doom scrolling. I took those quiet moments at 3am breastfeeding to check in with myself. It made a huge difference with my first. I did have ppda. Is that what it's called? Postpartum no Anxiety ppa.
- [11:05]
Erica Chitty
Is that correct?
- [11:06]
Brooke Devard
Ppa. I had ppa. I didn't have feelings of sadness or not feeling connected to Mavi, but I had this, like, constant anxiety that I thought something really bad was going to happen. I can remember the stairs in our apartment. Every time I went down the stairs, I felt like I was going to drop him, like he was going to fall. I always had these visions of him falling and getting really hurt. And I always had this, like, kind of paranoia that something really bad was going to happen to him. And I haven't had that at all with my second. So I think that's also interesting. It can change child to child.
- [11:37]
Erica Chitty
Yes, absolutely. And I think what's interesting to this piece that you're speaking about with the postpartum anxiety, I also want to emphasize a couple different things about that and I'll be quick because, you know, I. I love a tangent, but they're always informative, but they are tangents. So I want to just express that, you know, a big part of postpartum anxiety, too, in terms of like thinking you might, you know, fall with the baby or that you might hurt the baby in an accidental way, because thoughts of harming the baby in a very directive way or directed ways, actually more in the psychosis arena, which we can talk about if we have time. But this, this feeling, this anxiety of what's going to happen next. I took a lactation educator course many, many years ago, maybe like 16 years ago now. And one of the things that she said, her name was Virginia. She said humans, especially in America, are raised in captivity. We don't see each other breastfeed. We don't have high contact with infants. So when you don't have high contact with infants most of your life and you have a baby later in life, you are going to feel nervous that you might drop the baby. You are going to feel like, do I have this? Because you haven't spent hours and hours holding an infant? Like, for me, I would never think that because I've held hundreds of babies and I don't have children. Right. But it's like I've had high exposure. And so it's a really important thing to consider for anyone who has anxiety generally in their life. If you have someone in your life that you're close with that's having a baby, consider being more up close during that time when their baby's under six months, when you can be like, you guys take a shower or go get some rest. I'll be with the baby for a couple of hours. That's what it used to be like when we lived in different proximity. Right. But that's gone now, for the most part, at least in the United States and a lot of the developed world. So it's important for us to see if there's ways to kind of mimic that to help reduce some of that exposure, basically expose ourselves to the situation to reduce some of that anxiety. That said, if you have had tons of exposure and you still are having those ruminations or that catastrophizing type of thinking, I also want to just express that that's normal for a first baby, too. And by second baby, there is a sense of command, a sense of like, I know what I'm doing. And so you can drop into other parts of the experience.
- [14:05]
Brooke Devard
Yes. I want to talk about what happens in the weeks and months after birth, hormonally, physically, and emotionally. I have a few bullet points here that I would love for you to touch on. Let's talk about hair loss and hormones and then the reality of your body recovering.
- [14:21]
Erica Chitty
Yeah. So hair loss and hormones is really normal. The transition of hormones that are going on in your body are pretty layered. But to simply explain it. So let's talk about during pregnancy. During pregnancy, whether or not you decide to breastfeed or feed with your body. Your body goes through a process called lactogenesis, lactogenesis stage 1, which means by about 16, 17 weeks of pregnancy, you have enough colostrum in your breast, which is early breast milk. Enough colostrum in your breast to feed your baby, you know, for a few days, then after the baby's born and the placenta is released. So the baby being born is one major event, but the second really major event that sets off this cascade of hormones is going to be the removal or the delivery or the birth of the placenta. Once the placenta is out, your body knows, okay, I'm no longer pregnant. Which is why a full removal of the placenta is important and making sure that no placenta is retained. There's a ton of issues that happen if there's placenta that's retained in the uterus. Once your body knows it's no longer pregnant, it does a couple things. It starts to increase your milk supply, right? Whether or not you're going to feed your baby, it'll start to rise and then it'll start to even out, depending on two things. One, obviously there's genetics, there's DNA, there's how is your birth? Did you get a ton of fluids via IV during the birth? Other components that might delay the increase in milk volume. And I never say, and most modern lactation folks will not say your milk comes in, it's never in, it's already there, it's just increasing in volume. So post placenta being released starts to increase in volume. The second thing that's going to determine that volume increase or volume decrease is how active your baby is at the breast. If your baby's feeding a lot, there's going to be an increase in supply because there's an increase in demand. If you're not feeding a lot, there's not going to be that increase unless you're exclusively pumping, which will also help to create that increase in milk supply. In the, in the supply.
- [16:29]
Brooke Devard
There's something I just want to share here about lactation consultants specifically because I've had two very different experiences. With my first, I had an under like I didn't have enough milk. I tried, I was doing power pumping. I was basically pumping, I don't know, 10 times a day and feeding. In between the pumping, I was doing what they call power pumping. I had a hospital grade pump. It, it consumed my entire life and it was not fun. A lactation consultant that I met with basically told me that, you know, the moment you give a bottle of formula, your milk supply decreases and.
- [17:03]
Erica Chitty
Not true.
- [17:04]
Brooke Devard
Not true. Yes, not true. And really wanted me to pump and feed at the Expense of my own mental health. I said, this is really, really hard. And there was just no real accounting for my personal feelings. With my second, I had an oversupply. I was traveling. There was a lot going on. But I met with a lactation consultant through Suitor Sinai. And she was like, as long as your baby's getting some breast milk, they. They're getting all of the benefits. Adding in formula doesn't take away from the benefits of breast milk. And she just made me feel so empowered and so happy and so just good about the fact that I could do combo feeding for my baby after exclusively breastfeeding for four months. I was just like, okay, I have this trip. I'm not going to be able to pump enough. I have to have a good freezer stash. And then she was just like, introduce formula. It's okay. You know. So I just want to tell people because I think a lot of lactation consultants and not to give them a bad reputation because some are wonderful, as I mentioned, a lot of times they want you to produce milk, breastfeed pump at the expense of your own mental health.
- [18:03]
Erica Chitty
Yeah. And I think that is very much, I would say an old guard of lactation consultants or educators. I think the new guard or the guard that's continuing to, you know, continuing to educate themselves and upskill understand that the way that we feed our babies is the way that we live. And we feel the same way about birth. We birth the way that we live. The idea of exclusively breastfeeding is gorgeous. Obsessed with it. If it's possible, we are doing it. But what people don't often want to admit, at least in America, is to exclusively breastfeed requires socioeconomic emotional support. If you have to go back to work at six weeks, if you are a single parent, if you don't have a supportive partner who thinks breastfeeding is cool, if you. I can go on. I can pull a lot more of those. It's probably not going to work very well because what most women, people that can have babies don't realize, and this is what I would always teach in my classes, which is why they were so popular, is I would tell people, breastfeeding at the very beginning, it's like 18 hours of your day. I'm talking it's all day. It's all day. People are not prepared. It's all day, not forever. But during the hardest part, the part when you're just like, I don't fucking do this no more. That's going to be then. And so I think what you're expressing makes so much sense to me. And I think we just have to better equip our mothers, our parents, our people for the dexterity, the athleticism that is breastfeeding. That's why I burn so many calories, because you're doing it all the time.
- [19:45]
Brooke Devard
All the time.
- [19:46]
Erica Chitty
And so just to kind of tie that part in a bow, I think that if you decide to combo feed, no, it is not going to decrease your supply if you do a couple things. One, skin to skin exposure, just baby on your chest, in between your breasts, baby diaper on you. Ideally no bra or very low cut bra, but ideally no nothing between you and the baby that's going to do just as much or almost as much for your milk supply as would the baby actually suckling at the breast. And so what I would always recommend for my moms that were exclusively pumping chose not to pump because of certain things or couldn't. I would just say make sure you're getting tons of skin to skin time. Like right before you pump, plot baby right there and then pump right afterwards.
- [20:33]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [20:33]
Erica Chitty
So there's a way to do both.
- [20:36]
Brooke Devard
To go back to our discussion about the hormone changes and hair loss specifically, I found a stat that said 90% of women experience noticeable hair shedding after giving birth, typically around three to four months postpartum. And I have a question for you about this because I, you know, I've been in protective styles. I just did like a braid takedown. I did a full deep conditioning wash day routine and I didn't notice a lot of shift shedding and I was like expecting it to be there. I've. I did some research and it seems like maybe because I'm still breastfeeding, the shedding hasn't accelerated yet. And that is coming for me when I stop breastfeeding.
- [21:10]
Erica Chitty
So it's a mix of things. Right. So I would say at the end of the day, shedding could be similar to something like hot flashes. Right. Not everybody's going to experience them. Some people just go through that change and they experience other things. But not that hair fall, which I like, which is a more kind of like European term as opposed to hair loss. I like hair fall.
- [21:29]
Brooke Devard
I like hair fall. Let's use that.
- [21:31]
Erica Chitty
I think actually it's either, it's either European or also might be Indian. It's one of the two. I lived overseas for a big chunk of my life, so I have a lot of other dialects and phrases that just I think feel softer. So hair fall is normal. Actually when we get into it being an issue is if we're losing large patches or large chunks of hair. But you're correct in that as long as you continue breastfeeding, you aren't experiencing a massive hormonal shift until you stop. The big hormonal shift is placenta is out. Okay, no longer pregnant. Let's increase the milk supply and let's see what baby does until that's over. Then when it's over, yes, we can see some hair fall start to happen. And I think in terms of, statistically where we're seeing it happen is I think for the most part in terms of the term of breastfeeding, how long it lasts, at least here in the United States, is usually around three to four months of exclusive breastfeeding. So that the, you know, mapping out against when you're hearing about most people experiencing that, I will also add to that and say the hair will come back. There's a lot that you can do with that. Nutritionally, you know, also diet is a big, like I said, nutritionally, diets is a big important part. And then also, you know, there's other supplements that you can be taking. But I think another I would say potentially even more important component to understand about the transition between the hair fall and hormones and breastfeeding is that what most people also aren't prepared for is for how moody and how mood and stable or how unstable your mood becomes or how much more prone you are to anxiety or depression when you stop breastfeeding.
- [23:15]
Brooke Devard
Oh, wow, that's a really big on all of this.
- [23:19]
Erica Chitty
Yeah, it's like so fun. But it's, it's fine once you know.
- [23:22]
Brooke Devard
Once you know.
- [23:23]
Erica Chitty
And that's what we're trying to set up here. It's almost like a friend telling you what you need to know. Because once you know, you're like, oh, okay, yeah, that's normal, Nothing wrong. But when you shift from having those breast milk producing hormones coursing through your body to having them not, it's a big state change. And so it's very normal to feel anxious or to feel like more rumination or to feel more stressed out. Which is why we always recommend, and I would always recommend to stop breastfeeding in a phased, yes, chuck it be done. No one has to do that. You can just slowly do it so you and the baby can both have this kind of gentle exit.
- [24:06]
Brooke Devard
One of the things I really credit you for is putting me onto really good supplements. I take my prenatal vitamins even in the postpartum period. And I Feel like that's made a really big difference. I want to talk about. You mentioned you lived all around the world. I want to talk about different rituals and practices people take part in around the world for postpartum. So I tried belly binding, which was a very unique experience. I'd love to hear kind of what belly binding does for us and how it helps us heal, but also just other treatments that women undergo or people that have had children undergo postpartum.
- [24:41]
Erica Chitty
So I would say, and I think I'm going to truncate my answer mostly because I want to speak to things that I feel people can incorporate into their own experience here as your listeners in the sense of not necessarily having to pull so directly or appropriate so directly things that exist in other cultures. But what I would say is that the canopy that connects postpartum rituals and practices in other cultures outside of the one that we live in, is a hyper focus on rest and a hyper focus on a restful routine.
- [25:19]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [25:20]
Erica Chitty
Hyper focus on food, liquids, nutrients, and focus on giving the mother or new parent optimal space to focus only on the baby and their body. And anything that's like 15 to 20ft near that.
- [25:37]
Brooke Devard
Yes. They're often called confinement rituals. So strict rest, meaning no housework, no socializing, minimal movement, warming foods, body care rituals. You're recovering.
- [25:48]
Erica Chitty
Yeah, you're recovering. It's basically thinking of birth as, you know, a triathlon. And for a couple weeks, you're going to be protein loading, carbo loading, sleeping a lot, drinking a lot, and maybe doing some gentle movement and exercise. That might feel right for you in that early period. But the exercise, too, is just holding the baby. Baby is like 10, 12, 13 pounds and feeding. And so I think the confinement rituals are a thing also having more people around to support, not just people that are being paid, but family members who understand. This is the soup, this is the juice, this is the tea, this is the oil. This is the temperature Right. Of the room or environment. This is the bath. This is a sitz bath. This is the liquid to drink for constipation. These are, you know, to make that first poop after you have a baby. If you have a baby vaginally not feel crazy. You know, these are all things that are part of that.
- [26:52]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [26:53]
Erica Chitty
Little chest of things that can be supportive. I will also say, though, too, one thing that a really good friend of mine, Kimberly Johnson, who wrote two amazing books, one's called the Fourth Trimester and the other is more about just somatic practices and sensory regulation. Amazing person. She also has a Fantastic podcast. She reminded me, couple of months ago, maybe could be a couple of years, because time is a construction. But she said to me, it's something to remember about birth is after birth, you as the birthing person or the mother, you should spend five days in bed, five days in the room, five days in the house, and then another five days just like, walking around near the house. So 5, 10, 15, 20 first, 20 days. That's how it should be spliced up. Bed, room, house, around the house. And if you just follow that rule, you're going to be a lot better off. Because most people are like, by day seven, okay, I just want to go to the store. And you're like, why are you going to the store? Like, there's no need. There's no that. If someone else can help you.
- [28:04]
Brooke Devard
Yes, I agree that that works for some people. But me personally, by one week, I was doing, like, a walk in, like, on my hiking trail because I just had to. I needed fresh air.
- [28:17]
Erica Chitty
That's fine. Walk is fine. I'm talking about having to actually be like, okay, what am I. Yeah, what do I need to go get? Okay, I'm going to go get this. I'm going to go with that walk. Great. Love that for you, anything, even, like, gentle yoga, you could do. Like, I'm happy with things being done, but what I'm trying to shut off and now, again, there's great language to talk about these things is we're trying to lower your executive functioning. I want you to be making less decisions, to be feeling more into your body. So if you want to go for a walk every day, hell yeah. Like, back in the day, like, women were still maybe walking to get water or like, you know.
- [28:54]
Brooke Devard
Oh, yes. There's a famous story in my family. When my brother was born, my mom and grandmother left the hospital with the baby and they went to Neiman Marcus because there was a sale going on.
- [29:06]
Erica Chitty
So that is also fine because not a lot of executive functioning. It's.
- [29:10]
Brooke Devard
Yes, that was their joy. That those are. That's how the Devard women rol. And for a great sale, I may do the same thing. I want to go back to two things that you mentioned. The first is around. You said having family around versus people that you pay. And I want to talk about this more because someone DM'd me and she said, I am pregnant right now, and we live with my husband's parents, and we're cordial, but we don't get along well. And I'm so afraid that they're going to drive me crazy and I'm so not feeling good about having them around. Posting postpartum, a lot of people may not have positive relationships with their family or with their in laws. How do you mitigate that in this very sensitive period of postpartum?
- [29:55]
Erica Chitty
I think it's going to be a sensitive discussion, especially if you're not a single parent or a choice mom. Which is moms who choose to have a baby on their own and go through that process in a singular capacity, at least the decision of it. They usually have great community around them. It's actually a really important part of having a choice mom experience is that chosen family piece. I really don't believe in having stressful in laws around in the postpartum period. I'm pretty, I'm pretty bullish about that. Like I don't care. Like they really should not be there.
- [30:31]
Brooke Devard
Because how do you coach people though? Like even being in the delivery room, some people's parents want to be there and people are like, you know, I love my mom, but I don't want her necessarily in the room. How do you coach people to have those conversations where they don't want to hurt people's feelings?
- [30:45]
Erica Chitty
You see my hand?
- [30:46]
Brooke Devard
Yeah. You're. You're waving. No, you're saying absolutely not.
- [30:51]
Erica Chitty
Totally down. So. So a couple things. If you don't want people to be in the room with you at the birth, your family is not so overly involved. I mean, if your mom's coming with you to every appointment, I don't know if this will work. Most parents aren't so typically does work, you can let them know that the doctor said that you're not allowed to have anybody else in the room but your partner, your doula. That's what the policy is and that's what we need to do. If you don't even need the excuse, I really would recommend being very clear and saying that having a baby is like peeing and pooing. I don't want you in the room as I'm doing that. And if that does not get them to back down, then you might need to host an intervention. But those two things should do it. I think postpartum, if your family is living with you, that's obviously going to be a little bit more challenging. I have seen in my career over the years, if there were in laws that were living in the house when the baby was born, they would take like a trip or do a little staycation for the first two or three days. So when you get home, there's nobody. You have those initial precious early days to just be your little unit. And if there needs to be a lactation consultant or postpartum doula or whoever's coming in, you get a couple of days to yourself. I think that tends to be a nice solve if the family is living in the house. If they're not living in the house and they want to come, which most families do, you really don't want them to come for the first two weeks. And the reason for that is two things. If you decide to breastfeed, it usually takes about two weeks to establish your supply. Meaning you don't want someone being like, oh, hey, honey, like, you know, what do you want to do for dinner? You want to come with me? Like, no. You just need to be able to listen to your baby, understand when they need to be fed and know that crying is a late hunger cue. Actually, when your baby's eyes are opening is actually food. That's actually when you start getting them ready to bring them to your body or to bring that bottle to reduce their anxiety and their stress and to make feeding go smoothly. You can't be that vigilant and that observant if you have like three people in the house who are needing your attention. Unless they're giving full blown. I was an rn, their nurse, they were a doula and they're in there helping you. I've seen that happen too. But most of the time it's not that. So you need at least two weeks to get breastfeeding or feeding established before people start coming in. And then when they do come in, the parents that we don't like so much, they have errands, they have things to do, they're doing things in the house, whether it's like housework, if they're comfortable with that, or you're like, can you go to the store and get me this? Can you go to the thing and get me that? You really give them tasks to do so they feel involved and they're not just there like salivating over the baby, asking to hold it. Because also in those. Also in those first few few months or nine months or those first few weeks, the primary person holding the baby should be the person that is feeding the baby or birth the baby and is feeding the baby.
- [33:51]
Brooke Devard
Yes, yes, I agree with everything you said. I also want to go back to something you said around the first poop after delivering, because that is something that I feel like people aren't really prepared for. So what's happening in your body that makes that difficult and such a kind of big thing that you have to prepare for.
- [34:10]
Erica Chitty
Well, it's a couple different pieces, right? So let's see. I want to think about this from a couple different ways. So if you have a vaginal birth, whether it's medicated or unmedicated, so epidural or no epidural, and you push a baby out of your vagina, the tissues in that area are stressed, right? Because they've done exactly what they were designed to do. But that's the first time that tissue, that skin, has had to stretch and open in the way that it's doing. So if you think about that, any other tissue in your body, when it has that experience, it's going to feel tender potentially. There might be some skin open in that area, like a little what we call skid mark or that type of thing. And so when that area is so sensitive, including the rectum, the rectum is going to be sensitive, too, and the anus is going to be sensitive, too, because that's also engaged when you're. When you're pushing. Like, when you're pushing, it's like you're pushing out a tampon, but you're also still engaging, like that backside of your body. So when it comes time to poop, you're engaging all of those same muscles again, for the most part, which can feel pretty uncomfortable. And there can sometimes be some hesitation around scary. You're like, do I do that again? And what's going to happen? And so sometimes just the fear of that can make you constipated. Like, you just are a little scared of going to the bathroom. And then also depending on the medications that were involved in the birth, also depending on what kind of birth you had, it can create constipation. Sometimes you're not getting a ton of fluid during labor, especially if you're having an unmedicated birth. That can also create constipation. And sometimes, you know, there becomes a little bit of a prioritization in birth, right, in terms of, like, what's happening in the body. The focus on. The focus is on moving the baby out of the body, right? So things like, you know, peeing or, you know, pooping kind of get delayed even during pushing. Yes, there sometimes is some poop that happens then, because that's unavoidable, but it's not going to be like a clear bowel movement. So eventually, shortly after birth, that poop is going to need to happen, and it just needs to be made comfortable. If you have a cesarean birth, even More so because all of the medications and everything that you have to take in order to have a cesarean birth are constipating. They typically will give you what they call colace, which is a type of laxative when you leave the hospital. But I don't feel like it's sufficient. I'm a really big fan of making sure that you're taking, like, at least 400 to 600 milligrams of magnesium. Like, really get good mag in their capsule. Ideally, if you're not a capsule girly, you can do, you know, one of the. One of the natural calm or, you know, magnesium from moon juice, whatever. But you just want to make sure you're getting a high dosage and do that for the first couple of days. That should avoid constipation. Like, your first drink after birth should be magnesium loaded so that, yes, continue to have that easement and that ease of making a poop. That said, if you don't do that, make sure that you. I mean, how graphic can I be here? Like, because this is.
- [37:25]
Brooke Devard
This is. This is the things that we need to talk about, because people don't discuss it. So be as graphic as you need to be.
- [37:30]
Erica Chitty
Okay, so two things. One, if you've missed this memo and you're like, I'm constipated, so make sure you have some aquaphor. Big fan of just, like, taking a big gob of aquaphor on your hand, two fingers, and literally putting it up your butt. You can put a glove on if you're squeamish, but just put it up there. You probably won't be super squeamish because you're seeing a lot of butts, seeing a lot of poop coming out of a small person. So you might have more, more, more, more grace for yourself, but up there to just lubricate that canal a little bit. And then also, don't be afraid if you're so constipated to just go up and grab them. Like, they'll be right there, these little pebbles inside of your butt. You can just pull them down to, like, just initiate a little bit of that process. And then another thing, too is you should take your hands and sit on your hands on the toilet. Use your hands to give you counter pressure into your butt. So counter pressure into your butt. So like, basically push your hands into your butt and then push back down on them. That's the counter pressure that your hands are providing. And then kind of sway back and forth.
- [38:40]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [38:41]
Erica Chitty
Plus that aquaphor in there, things are Happening.
- [38:44]
Brooke Devard
Things are happening. I had to do a lot to, to get to that first bowel movement, and it was not enjoyable either time. And that's the other thing. It's like you forget about things between, you know, my pregnancies were four years apart and I'm like, oh, I forgot about this. You talked about the first thing that you drink. And I just want to share that. Oftentimes at hospitals they offer you, I think they call it like a postpartum punch. I don't know. It's like crushed ice, Sprite, orange juice, all of. All the juices, all the sugars. Now, one, I had an epidural. Two, I had gestational diabetes, so I was having no sugar, like, not even fruit for my pregnancy. I had that. I obviously loved it because it was like so sugary. I threw up maybe 20 minutes later. So I don't know that. I'm a huge fan of the hyper sugary crushed ice juice that they offer you after you deliver.
- [39:36]
Erica Chitty
So tribal. That juice, especially if you burst the cedars, it's like not logic based.
- [39:42]
Brooke Devard
They're not.
- [39:42]
Erica Chitty
They're just like, mama, you want this because all the ladies have it. But it's like, no, I had gestational diabetes, so I don't want it. I've had a lot of clients turn that down. And yes, and then you can just have some coconut water or have your magnesium or have your natural calm or have your little yummy apple juice out the cake can. Some really good apple juice at the can that the girls that know. No. Super yummy. Or your gheea. If you want a little GIA after birth, all of those things are possible. You can bring a cooler with you to the hospital or to the birth center, or you can just have in your fridge if you're birthing at home. Also, one other thing I want to mention about pooping after birth is hemorrhoids. Some people have hemorrhoids. So pooping, sorry, hemorrhoids people. I don't want to. I could already see that coming in the comments being like, what about hemorrhoids? We know they're horrible.
- [40:26]
Brooke Devard
Real, real. And until your partner has had to apply hemorrhoid cream to your anus, you haven't really connected. No, you haven't really connected.
- [40:34]
Erica Chitty
It's lacking if that hasn't happened for you.
- [40:36]
Brooke Devard
Yes. So, but that's a great transition into this discussion about sex and postpartum. And, you know, I think you get cleared or you can be cleared for sex six weeks postpartum when you go to get your kind of exam. But. But what I want to mention is you Talked about those 18 hours a day where you have a human being, like a tiny human being, but still someone physically on top of you. And what I experienced was this feeling of being very touched out. Like, very over. Just too much physical touch, almost. So that by the time my partner went to even cuddle with me at night, I was sort of like, can you please back up? I need some space, because I've just. It's too much. I can't accept even your physical touch because of all that I'm doing with my body.
- [41:22]
Erica Chitty
Yeah, well, you know, what's interesting is I feel like I was probably one of the first people to talk a lot about being touched out. Like, I'd say maybe six years ago, maybe. No, let's go back nine years ago, probably because it was something I would really notice and it was not being really discussed. I think I come from that time where I think a lot of my contemporaries, whether it's Kimberly Johnson or Dr. Alexander Sacks or Hano, all of us were putting our heads together and starting to say, we need to talk about the unmentionables. A lot of us are putting our heads together and saying, we need to talk about the unmentionables, but we also need to start observing what they are so that we actually can create language around them. And that's a lot of where this concept of being touched out came from. And again, if we start to measure the labor of breastfeeding, we can start to understand why a new mom might feel touched out. Because there's so much high contact from the baby in that period of time. And then on top of that, there's the hormonal cascade or hormonal flywheel that's going on with breastfeeding, especially when it's going successfully, is there's a lot of oxytocin moving through your system, which is a big part of the withdrawal, by the way. Breastfeeding stops. Oxytocin is a hormone that does a ton of things in the body from a really, like, brass tacks perspective, that oxytocin is helping the ducts in your breasts contract, the milk ducts, to release the milk, you know. 2. It's also helping your uterus contract. Right. To get smaller and come back down.
- [43:05]
Brooke Devard
Yes. And in those early days, you can feel it contracting. Like, as you're breastfeeding, you can feel your uterus contracting. And it's painful.
- [43:13]
Erica Chitty
Yeah, it can be painful, which is why it's nice to have a little heating pad actually when you're breastfeeding or, or pumping too. Or you can take your hand and just kind of gently massage your uterus. You can ask your doctor, post or midwife, even your lactation consultant or doula should be able to show you where your uterus is. Probably is located currently at the postpartum phase. You can just rub it a little bit to like wake that muscle up so that when you start to feed, it's a little bit more of a supportive contraction as opposed to a really harsh one. The heat during breastfeeding as well can support that. But going back to the oxytocin, the oxytocin is also the same hormone that gets released when you have an orgasm. It's. It's a hormone of connection, right? And I like to say another layer to see, speak to it. It's a hormone of input, right? It's a lot of things coming in. It's a lot of feeling coming into the body. It's high sensation. And so by the time you put your baby down, if you've chosen to breastfeed, you're like, whoa, like I'm in a whole different like universe over here. I'm maxed, I'm full. She's not parched. I'm not thirsty for you. I know you might be for me, but I'm not. And so I think it's a. There's a big mismatch in need, right, between partners. Whether you're in a hetero, gay, you know, non normative coupling. There's a mismatch of need and dynamic. And so what's really important, again I always like to say to partners pre having a baby, especially heterodynamics, is that partners need to anticipate a decrease in interest in sex that is not permanent, that is specifically physiologically orientated. If you have chosen to breastfeed as breastfeeding becomes more established, that urge and desire should come back. But there needs to be accommodation for that. And so by that we're trying to encourage partners to be comfortable with masturbation or if there isn't an issue with porn in their life, to maybe incorporate that briefly to just offset some of the need. On top of that, we also recommend, you know, non sexual, non penetrative sexual contact. So, you know, that can look like a lot of different things depending on what your coupling looks like. And then, you know, when sex does start again, especially if it's penetrative, regardless of whether same sex, hetero, big, my big Recommendation for women or people that have had a vaginal birth is going to be taking a Tylenol, like an hour or two before you know it's going to happen. So that you get a little bit of pain control in some of the areas that are uncomfortable. You can take a Tylenol if you have something a little bit stronger that feels okay for you, that's cleared by your doctor, that doesn't interfere with the baby. And breastfeeding, that's okay too. But I know that doesn't sound super sexy because it's very, like, orchestrated. But the reality is with a newborn, you're going to know that you're going to do it in an hour or two. You can be like, okay, later, great, go take a. Before having a baby, you're like, later. I don't know, maybe it's going to happen right now, but it doesn't really with an infant. And if it does, kudos to you. We love that experience. That is an awesome journey. But for most people, it's kind of like, okay, in a couple of hours. And yes, you can do some prep around that. And also having lubricants going to be important because when you're breastfeeding, your vaginal tissues aren't as hydrated as they typically are. So we want to make sure that that is being supported as well.
- [46:47]
Brooke Devard
Yes, you talked about oxytocin while you are breastfeeding, which is certainly something I experience. Like when I breastfeed, it makes me feel very happy and calm. But some people get depressive thoughts while breastfeeding. I think it's to. Tell me. You tell me. But is it called dysphoric milk ejection reflex? D M E R okay, could you explain that?
- [47:09]
Erica Chitty
You know what's really interesting, and I think the best way to explain it is that a lot of women are sensitive to change, like the delta of change. So a lot of people who struggle with PMDD or struggle with PMS are not struggling with their period, right? Necessarily, sometimes. But typically pms, PMDD people, once the period comes, it's like, oh, thank God. It's like nirvana, right? You just go back to it. So what they're struggling with is what happens when the hormones drop after ovulation and start to build and rebuild. A different kind of hormone starts to build and populate after that. But then when the period comes, you're fine. Now, with breastfeeding, it's kind of a similar thing. There's a big shift that happens right before the milk gets released. Right. So baby's going, suck, suck, suck, suck, suck. The body's going, okay, get ready, get ready, release. Get ready, release. Get ready, release, release. And then that. That exchange, that release is like. Like a. It's so. It's like that feeling is that state change or that delta of change between I wasn't breastfeeding and now I'm breastfeeding. And the hormones that come with that can really be too much for a lot of women, will really be too much for a certain group of women. And it can create feelings of anxiety, depression, sadness. And so for those moms, you know, there's moms who really tough through demur. They're like, fuck, I hate this. But they're like, I'm gonna do it. Because there is a component of breastfeeding that's very pleasurable. I think the most. One of the most complicated, I would say case types of moms who have demur are lots of supply. Like Dairy Queen. No. All potentially even bordering on oversupply. Yeah. Going great. Baby's got a good latch. Zero pain, easy demur. That is. I, like, I can't even explain how tough that is because everything's going great. Baby's gaining weight, breastfeeding going well, you've got it. But every time you do it, you're sad, you know? So when I have worked with women like that, we've done. I've done a lot of counseling over the years of just like, okay, how many feedings are we doing in a day? If we can pump, when do we pump? If we can use a bottle, when can we do that? How can we create a really nice hybrid system that means we're only having, like, two episodes of demur a day or three is six.
- [49:37]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [49:38]
Erica Chitty
So it's all about figuring out, like, what is that? What's gonna be that right sized, you know, flow for you during that time.
- [49:48]
Brooke Devard
I want to share three products that really helped me in the postpartum period, and then get your recommendations for products or tools that people can use. So one of them, they're called Silverettes. They're like these silver nipple covers. They're actually made out of silver. You put them in your bra and they help to. You add breast milk to them, like a little squirt of breast milk, and they help to reduce chapped nipples. I did not use them with my first baby, but they're wonderful. Do you recommend these to some people you've worked with?
- [50:16]
Erica Chitty
Love Silverettes. Love those for a decade or more. They're great. They're a little sleeper, too. People don't really know. So.
- [50:22]
Brooke Devard
Yes. It's also just interesting to realize that silver as a material can be so healing to the skin. And as I was using them, I was like thinking, I'm like, should there be like silver face masks? Like, I feel like there needs to be more exploration and how we can use silver to heal the skin.
- [50:37]
Erica Chitty
Yeah, we should talk more about that when we get into skin stuff because I'm a big fan of colloidal silver and a big fan of a couple of silver products that are super helpful.
- [50:46]
Brooke Devard
Yes. The other product that I just could not live without would be my Haaka. And I feel like I got so much milk supply in those early weeks just by putting that kind of suctioned Haaka on the other breast that I wasn't feeding out of. I got just, yeah, so much milk supply that way. And it was like, really a game changer for me. And then the third. And I know you have a great water bottle recommendation, so I'm dying for you to get into this water bottle you recommend, but I would say like a Stanley cup. No matter how you're taking in your water in that postpartum period, you need to drink so much water. Even people that feel like they're really good about drinking water, like, nothing really can prepare you for how much water your body needs. I also tasked my partner with, like, that was one of his many jobs. But I was like, keep my water bottle full. Like, every time you come into the room, I need you to check it. I need you to come. I need to have water at all times. So I think having a really good water bottle that you enjoy drinking out of that has a straw is essential in that postpartum period.
- [51:44]
Erica Chitty
Yeah, I agree. In terms of this water bottle and what you're saying. Yes, please make your partner your water person. That is a great task for them to do because it's very hard to constantly fill your own cup or bottle while you're feeding a baby. Generally. I love my bottle. It's a Brumate Era. I did a whole substack about it.
- [52:06]
Brooke Devard
Yes, yes. And wait, tell us what the brand is because I know people are going to want to order it that are.
- [52:10]
Erica Chitty
Like the Brumate Era. E R A.
- [52:12]
Brooke Devard
Okay.
- [52:13]
Erica Chitty
Comes in a 30 ounce and 40 ounce. I love it for so many different reasons, but it's this. The interior is all stainless steel. It's the first integrated stainless steel straw. And from a sensory perspective, it's just like the best drinking experience. It's just a very soothing Water bottle. And it comes in a lot of gorgeous colors. And it's like powder coated. There's like minimal plastic exposure, which is a big piece for me. And then I think another thing that it would be important to have is a really good baby carrier. I would say, whether it's a ssc, so soft structured carrier, like an Ergo, or I'm trying to think of another.
- [52:54]
Brooke Devard
Brand, but Ergo, have a baby Bjorn one.
- [52:59]
Erica Chitty
Yeah. And so soft structure carriers are helpful because you can hold your baby on you while you pee. You don't think that makes sense until you have a baby. I got to pee. Where are you going to go? So if you have a carrier, you can still pee and have your baby on you, which is ideal in those first few weeks. And the same thing for partners, like, they can work and have the baby on them. Super helpful. You can also use a sling or you can also use, you know, a wrap, but just have a baby carrier when you leave the hospital. Just like. Yes, yes.
- [53:27]
Brooke Devard
When I was, when I was. The baby carrier point is so good. When I was in Zambia, all of I saw all of these women carrying their babies with like this, of just a piece of fabric and carrying on their back and their hip. And one of the women showed me even how to tie it and put my baby in, but I just didn't feel comfortable. I don't know how. It's like a cultural thing. They just have been doing it for generations, so they just know how to do it.
- [53:48]
Erica Chitty
It's totally cultural. And it's like, I feel super comfortable with that. I'm Nigerian and grew up seeing that. I did that with babies. It's like a whole thing. But I agree some sort of baby carrier is really important. And then the last thing I would say too is to make sure that you do have some type of binder. I know you mentioned it for a moment, but the binder isn't about like, you know, you know, waist training. It's really about helping your organs come back into their natural setting. And a lot of women experience diastasis recti, which is when the abs slightly separate. Some people have a little bit after pregnancy, some people have a ton. And what exacerbates diastasis is lack of support. So having that support abdominally is so critical postpartum to help with your posture, to help with, you know, neck pain, chest pain, all of those things. Keeping that core supported is really key.
- [54:44]
Brooke Devard
Do you have one that you recommend?
- [54:47]
Erica Chitty
I really think bodily. I think theirs is really great. And I think belly Bandit makes a great one too. Those would be the ones off the top of my head.
- [54:57]
Brooke Devard
This has been such a comprehensive and great deep dive into postpartum. Because you've spent so many years working with mothers, you also see partners. And one of the things I'd love to ask you are what are ways that partners can show up to be supportive and what are mistakes that you've seen partners make so that we can prepare people listening to know that your partner may make some of these mistakes, but how can you correct them?
- [55:20]
Erica Chitty
I think I've mentioned a lot of it through this episode talking about sex. We both got on board with the water bottle piece. I think the last two things I would add to that is make a plan of what your partner can do before the baby comes. My book Nurture has a good guidelines for that. First 40 days has a good guidelines for that. So does fourth trimester. My girls books. Go in there and pull together a postpartum plan so that you can have less questions being that you have to field. Ideally your partner should be able to self start, figure it out and have a plan. They know what to cook, they know what to buy, they know who to call. It should not be something that you're doing like in real time because that's going to create a lot of frustration when you're postpartum and breastfeeding or just postpartum. Generally there's a lot of neurological changes that are still taking place. We would always say with new moms, eyes open, ears closed, it's like you can, you're looking around but you're like, what am I? I don't know what you're saying. Like, so you need to really figure out what the plan is, when's the first doctor's appointment, who's driving us there. All of those things should be decided before the baby comes. So have a postpartum plan beforehand and I think decide on whether or not you want a doula. I always like to say, you know, test the partner in making sure that happens. You know, setting up the interviews, coordinating with the doula so that you're not having to do that. Those are great things that partners can pick up to be supportive. So have that postpartum plan have right size expectations around sex, have right size expectations around what the new mom or person who had the baby is going to be able to do. And have a plan about what those first couple weeks are going to look like given if they go the way that's planned. As we've already mentioned, there's nicu. There can be birth challenges, all of these different things, but if everything goes smoothly, there should be a lot less talking and a lot more doing on the partner side.
- [57:12]
Brooke Devard
Yes. So, great. As always. I feel like you need to have a doctor in front of you. I just want to call you Dr. Erica. Like, get your PhD already. You're basically already there.
- [57:21]
Erica Chitty
Doctor. I grew up with doctors. My best friends are doctor, doctor. It's giving that, but it's also just like, it's giving. It's giving systems, it's giving, it's giving containment. And that's always really been my thing. And I feel like that's what's also been super fun about being my sub stack with soft boundaries. It's like I get to kind of share a lot of the systems and frameworks.
- [57:42]
Brooke Devard
Yes.
- [57:42]
Erica Chitty
Because I'm, like, very intense, as anyone who's listening to this can hear, but I'm also a lot of fun, and that's because I am intense. Like, I have systems so that I can have a little bit more fun and things can feel a little bit more open and fluid. I feel like, you know, I think this is a Brene Brown quote, could be wrong. But clarity is kindness, right? And so when you have clarity, you have room to be kind, you have room to find whatever bits of joy are around. But when you don't have that clarity, you're so stuck in trying to figure out what to do next that you can't really enjoy yourself.
- [58:16]
Brooke Devard
Yes. Everyone listening should subscribe to Erica's substack. I will link to it in the comments. I see my producer in BA just wrote, she said that was so good. She's not even anywhere near pregnant. So I think this is a conversation that a lot of people need. So thank you. Thank you so much.
- [58:30]
Erica Chitty
Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you for having me.
- [58:34]
Brooke Devard
All right. Wasn't that just amazing? I adore Erica. She is truly an expert. She will be back on the podcast. We're going to get into all things skin care and what to eat to nourish your skin. She just. She has a wealth of information across various topics, but talking to her about Postpartum was just so high on my list because, as you heard, she is so knowledgeable. All of those products we mentioned will be linked to in the show notes. Definitely check out her substack. She has a wonderful book that I think all pregnant people should read called Nurture. And if you listen to this episode and you found it helpful, please share it with someone in your community who could benefit from the knowledge. Thank you so much for listening and I'll be back next week with a new episode.
- [59:21]
Erica Chitty
I got so much love in there.
- [59:25]
Brooke Devard
I never thought I would be this obsessed with the toilet, but here we are. We installed the Kohler Vail Smart toilet right before I gave birth. And for any postpartum moms listening, you know how those first few weeks can be. This toilet honestly made my recovery so much more comfortable. In the middle of the night, when you stumble into the bathroom, you don't want to turn on harsh lights that wake you up. The Vail nightlight glows the soft blue light, the seat automatically lifts and it's beautifully warm. You just sit down and do your thing and then the magic happens. The Vail Smart toilet has this little remote with customizable cleansing features that wash you and even gently dry you with warm air. You literally don't need toilet paper. It sounds silly, but this toilet completely upgraded my day to day life. It's luxury, but in the most functional, practical way. And honestly, it's no surprise that Kohler partnered with Lora Kim, someone who knows great design, as the co creative director of Oscar de la Renta and Mons. I love that Kohler partnered with someone like Laura to show how design can transform even the most unexpected objects, like a toilet. Discover the Kohler Vail Smart Toilet and go behind the scenes of their Laura Kim collaboration@kohler.com.
- [60:39]
Paige
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- [61:19]
Brooke Devard
You were made to be rechargeable. We were made to package flights, hotels and hammocks for less. Expedia made to travel. Acast powers the world's best podcasts.
- [61:37]
Erica Chitty
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [61:41]
Brooke Devard
Hi, I'm Frances Fry. And I'm Anne Morris and we are the hosts of a new TED podcast called Fixable. We've helped leaders at some of the world's most competitive companies solve all kinds of problems. On our show, we'll pull back the curtain and give you the type of honest, unfiltered advice we usually reserve for top executives. Maybe you have a co worker with boundary issues, or you want to know how to inspire and motivate your team. No problem is too big or too small. Give us a call and we'll help you solve the problems you're stuck on. Find Fixable Wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [62:17]
Erica Chitty
Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast. Com.