325: Never. Give. Up. Angeles National Forest

Summary

National Park After Dark

Episode 325: Never. Give. Up. Angeles National Forest
September 29, 2025 | Audioboom Studios
Hosts: Danielle & Cassie

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the extraordinary true survival story of Norman Ollestad, an 11-year-old boy stranded on a freezing, treacherous mountain after a plane crash. While the story is about physical endurance in California’s rugged Angeles National Forest, it’s also a moving meditation on the complexities of father-son relationships, grief, and how the lessons imparted by loved ones shape and save us.

Cassie guides the narrative, blending the compelling drama of Norman's harrowing descent with reflection on parental influence, generational change, and the enduring echo of a parent’s voice. Listeners experience both the heart-pounding ordeal and the lingering, emotional scars that survival can leave.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Norman Ollestad’s Upbringing & Relationship with His Father (00:01–26:31)

• Father as Mentor and Taskmaster:
  Norman’s father was “restless, adventurous and thrill-seeking... unwilling to let life be ordinary.” His approach to parenting was demanding: “He called him boy wonder and believed that facing your fears and facing the unknown was the only way to grow.” (Cassie, 00:33)
• Early Exposure to Adventure:
  Norman was skiing double black diamonds at 3 and surfing Malibu at 4, often pushed to extremes for his father’s vision of achievement and resilience.
• Duality of Parental Influence:
  Norman faced both praise (“you can achieve anything”) and abuse (stepfather Nick “bullied Norman... and at times, turned physically violent...”). He was “caught between conflicting expectations and fears.” (23:23)
• Preparation for the Storm:
  His father's philosophy of "never give up" was instilled through these experiences: “It wasn’t just advice for sports. It was a philosophy drilled into him with every wave, every fall, every scraped knee and bruised rib.” (23:23)

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2. The Crash: Events Leading Up to Disaster (26:31–33:15)

• Setting the Scene: On February 19, 1979, Norman, his father, the pilot (Rob Arnold), and his father’s girlfriend (Sandra Cressman) board a Cessna 172 to Big Bear.
  • The San Gabriel Mountains/Angeles National Forest: “steep, fractured by canyons, ridges and cliffs that can confuse even experienced hikers... In winter, the climate is harsh and unpredictable.” (27:31)
• The Crash: “Fog pressed against all the windows, as if the plane were standing still... Moments later, the Cessna slammed into the side of Ontario Peak. On impact, the plane tore into several pieces.” (29:32–29:57)
  • Norman awakens pinned under his seat, calls for his father, but finds only Sandra alive; his father and the pilot are dead.
  • Immediate survival challenges: blizzard, severe injuries, 45-degree slope, no supplies.

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3. Descent and Survival: Grit, Loss, and Echoes of a Father’s Voice (33:15–43:02)

• Taking Charge as a Child:
  Cassie describes how “Norman, the 11-year-old, takes charge”—making makeshift ice axes, pushing Sandra to move, and physically supporting her descent.
• Loss Upon Loss:
  Sandra suffers a fatal fall. “He was consumed by a crushing mix of grief, guilt, and... relief that he could move faster by himself. That mix of feelings, the shame of it, would stay with him for a long, long time.” (37:20)
• Relentless Endurance:
  Norman slides, crawls, and ultimately digs himself out of a hidden tree well before stumbling onto a boot print—which he follows to rescue.
• Rescue:
  He finds a teenage boy, Glenn Farmer, who takes him to safety after nine hours on the mountain; only Norman survives (43:02).

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4. Aftermath: Trauma, Media Scrutiny, and Lifelong Impact (43:02–63:14)

• Media Insensitivity & Shock:
  Norman, only 11, becomes a media sensation—“paraded around as a miracle” (57:22). Reporters force him to recount his trauma almost immediately post-rescue, as Danielle notes the “insensitivity of that coming from adults.”
• Speculation and Conspiracy:
  The press and authorities speculate wildly about the crash, even suggesting FBI involvement due to Norman Sr.’s history—adding to Norman’s confusion and distress (44:54–55:10).
• Unprocessed Grief:
  He stops skiing, surfing, and “mostly just hung out with neighborhood kids,” his body “not used to all that hanging around and grief stayed crammed up inside me... with no outlet except the sore throats.” (58:12)

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5. The Long Recovery: Generational Change & Personal Growth (63:14–end)

• Re-examining the Crash:
  Decades later, Norman revisits the crash site, obtains the NTSB report, and learns the pilot flew with “no weather briefing and without a flight plan... He should have never taken off, much less proceeded towards the storm ahead.” (63:14)
• Writing the Memoir:
  Norman’s book, Crazy for the Storm, alternates between the survival ordeal and his demanding childhood, exploring how “the survival on the mountain cannot be separated from the childhood that prepared him for it.” (64:59)
• Transforming Legacy:
  Norman decides to parent differently than his father—offering freedom and encouragement instead of pressure, “…carried forward and transformed his father's legacy… ‘Never give up’ was still there, but softened.” (66:26)
• Enduring Message:
  “His story reminds us that survival is never simple. It's physical, yes, but it is also emotional. It's about carrying grief, guilt, and love and still finding a way to keep moving forward.” (66:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The voice of a father can echo long after he's gone, shaping how his child faces the world.”
  — Cassie, 00:01
• “When the moment came that would define Norman's life and threaten his survival, it was his father's words that he held on to: ‘Never give up.’”
  —Cassie, 01:04
• “I was supposed to be tough because I made it down that mountain. The dark feelings swirling and clawing inside me were something that I would just have to get over.”
  —Excerpt from Norman’s memoir, 60:13
• “The survival on the mountain cannot be separated from the childhood that prepared him for it.”
  —Cassie, 64:59
• “Looking back, Norman described survival not as a single act, but as a lifelong process. Making it down the mountain was only the beginning. Living with the memory and with the loss was the real test.”
  —Cassie, 66:54

Hosts’ Emotional Responses:

• Both Cassie and Danielle become emotional at several points, emphasizing the story’s poignancy and the resonance of the father-son dynamic (50:32, 67:40–72:00).
• Danielle reflects:
  “This one definitely made me miss my dad a lot. But in a really good way, because... so many parts of myself... I got from my dad. And like, I can totally relate to that.” (70:20)

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Reflection on Fatherhood & Generational Change (69:00–72:00)

• Discussion on how every generation tweaks their parenting based on their own experiences—whether out of admiration or a desire to improve.
• “I think that fathers aren't always appreciated or highlighted enough for the important roles that they have with their kids. This one... really highlighted how complicated and important that is.”
  —Cassie/Al, 71:13

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:01 — Introduction and framing of Norman Ollestad’s childhood
• 13:11 — Transition into survival story focus
• 26:31 — The crash and conditions on Ontario Peak/Angeles National Forest
• 33:15 — Physical ordeal and emotional challenges during Norman’s descent
• 43:02 — Norman’s rescue and immediate aftermath
• 57:16 — Media circus and emotional impact
• 63:14 — Norman’s adult reflection, investigation, and the generational legacy of survival
• 69:00–72:00 — Reflections on parenthood, generational improvement, and host’s personal connections

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Tone & Language

The hosts maintain a compassionate, genuine, and sometimes vulnerable tone, blending vivid storytelling with thoughtful reflection. They balance the intensity of the narrative with moments of levity, personal anecdotes, and empathetic insight—especially concerning grief, trauma, and family dynamics.

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Summary

This episode is more than a wilderness survival account—it’s a heartfelt exploration of how hardship, loss, and love shape us, and how the lessons of those we lose endure and evolve across generations. Norman Ollestad’s survival is testament to both the strength forged by adversity and the complex, lasting influence of a parent on a child’s life.

For listeners, it’s a reminder that “never give up” is both battle cry and burden—and survival is as much about heart and healing as it is about heroics on a mountain.

Transcript

[Cassie]

A father can be many things to a child. A protector, teacher, rival, friend. Sometimes he is a source of comfort, other times a source of pressure. And sometimes he is both at the same time. The voice of a father can echo long after he's gone, shaping how his child faces the world. For Norman Olestad, the voice belonged to a man who believed in testing the limits. Norman's father was restless, adventurous and thrill seeking. He was unwilling to let life be ordinary.

[Al]

From the time Norman could stand on.

[Cassie]

Skis or balance on a surfboard, his father pushed him into the waves, up the slopes, through the fear. He called him boy wonder and believed that facing your fears and facing the unknown was the only way to grow. At 11 years old, Norman often resented it. He didn't always want to be pushed into freezing water or down a dangerous ski run. But when the moment came that would define Norman's life and threatened his own survival, it was his father's words that he held on to.

[Al]

Never give up.

[Cassie]

Welcome to National Park After Dark.

[Al]

Foreign.

[Danielle]

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to National Park After Dark. My name is Danielle.

[Cassie]

And I'm Cassie.

[Al]

I feel like it's been a while since we've recorded.

[Danielle]

I was going to say it feels a little strange being here clocking in for our jobs. And I know as a listener it probably doesn't feel that way because we do our best to make sure we're ahead of things and always putting out content with only two weeks off a year. But one of those weeks off was recently for Cassie's wedding and we just front loaded so much and now we're finally back in a routine and a groove and it just like this is the first time we've sat down and recorded in a long time.

[Al]

Yeah. Yeah. It feels good to be back. I'm ready. I mean, it was fun. I did get married, which is exciting. Whole new. Whole new. You're a wife, I'm a wife now. That's weird.

[Danielle]

Is anything different?

[Al]

I wouldn't say it's super different. I think the only thing that feels. I feel like we're kind of in this very loving phase right now. Yeah, it's like the honeymoon phase right now, I guess. And I think just after having a wedding surrounded by all of our loved ones and saying our vows to each other and stuff, I just think that we have almost this more love and.

[Cassie]

Appreciation for each other.

[Al]

So we're kind of in. In that phase. But as far as our relationship, it would be like, wow, everything's so different now. Now we're married. It's it's kind of like, all right, now we're really doing life together.

[Danielle]

Yeah. Like officially on paper.

[Cassie]

Yeah, officially.

[Al]

Even though he has to get a lawyer to get rid of me. Right.

[Danielle]

So that probably feels great.

[Al]

It does. It's really nice. And if people, I guess if people are interested in hearing more about my wedding, we did talk about it pretty in depth on a, on an outsider only episode that's going to be coming.

[Danielle]

Out or probably just when are we releasing that? I don't know.

[Al]

It's coming out sometime around now. Just look for it. It'll be. If you're listening on Apple, it's always posted there. Or head over to Patreon and it'll be up there.

[Danielle]

Yeah. Well, I will say that I'm so happy that you wore that second dress.

[Al]

My God.

[Danielle]

And I know we just said we weren't. We're not going to talk about your wedding here. We already did that per subscription. Just for a moment. Just for a moment.

[Al]

An ode to the dress.

[Danielle]

And I'm not a big dress person. Like, I'm not a big fashion. Look at me, I'm wearing all black. Like, I could care less really about fashion and it's not really my thing and getting dressed up isn't really my thing. But you looked so phenomenal. And like, because I've seen the dress before, I'd seen photos of it, sketches of it as it was being made for you, but seeing like the complete look with you in it, and it was just like, you made that dress and you just look so amazing.

[Al]

Thank you. I appreciate that so much. Because I've just been staring at pictures of me in that dress for, like, days.

[Cassie]

It's the best dress I've ever seen.

[Al]

In my whole life.

[Danielle]

Okay, well, you have to say a little bit about it now, I guess, because you didn't just walk into like David's Bridal and get this. Not to call out David's Bridal, but.

[Al]

You know, it was a custom made dress. So I, I already bought my wedding dress long before I found this dress actually. And I bought my wedding dress. It's a classic white dress that had 3D flowers on it and it had a really long train and was dramatic and I really, I really liked it. But then I was on Instagram one day and this post, I kept seeing.

[Cassie]

This post of this couple who had just gotten married and this woman was.

[Al]

Wearing the dress of my dreams.

[Cassie]

It's like I had never seen a dress that looked like this before her wedding looked beautiful and I See a.

[Al]

Picture of her and the dress, and I don't see the creator credited anywhere in the post. So I'm searching the thousands of comments on this, trying to find the creator tagged in it because I just loved.

[Cassie]

The dress so much. And sure enough, they were on there.

[Al]

Her name is Sylvie Ficon. Ficon. It's a French name, so I might be pronouncing it wrong. It's F, A C, O, N. But.

[Cassie]

She is in France, and I.

[Al]

Her page is absolutely incredible, and her Instagram is amazing. And I was going through her website and all of her stuff, and I.

[Cassie]

Was looking at this website for weeks.

[Al]

And eventually I was like, I have to. I have to reach out to her.

[Cassie]

She's create.

[Al]

I. I already have my wedding dress, but this is my dream Dr. I didn't even know existed.

[Cassie]

And I finally sent her an email.

[Al]

And I was like, hey, my wedding's in September. This was in end of June.

[Cassie]

I was like, I know that this.

[Al]

Is probably a long shot, but I am so in love with your work. Is there any room for me? And she said, I just had a bride move her wedding to next year. So I just had a spa open up and the stars aligned. I was like, please, please, please. And we just started collaborating and talking over email about what I envisioned for my dress. And I wanted. She specializes in these floral designs that she embroiders and tool, and it's just. It's absolutely incredible. And we started talking, and I was like, I would really love the flowers that I have in my own garden and that I grow here. So she. She. I told her the list of the flowers, and she.

[Cassie]

All of the flowers embroidered on my.

[Al]

Dress are ones that I actually have.

[Cassie]

At my house, which is really, really special and cool.

[Al]

And she.

[Cassie]

She drew sketches for me, and then she showed me pictures along the way as she was creating it.

[Al]

And I sent her all of. Cause I didn't go in person, but I sent her all of my measurements.

[Cassie]

And she sent the dress to me.

[Al]

She got it to me the.

[Cassie]

The end of August, and it was.

[Al]

Just as soon as a week to spare. A week to spare. And it was just the prettiest, most beautiful dress. I want to wear it every day. It's. I considered moving it to my ceremony dress, but I had already gotten a wedding dress, and you can't return those. I had already had it altered everything. And so I was like, you know.

[Cassie]

I'm gonna wear my wedding dress for.

[Al]

A quick ceremony, and then I'm changing immediately into this dress. And I did. And it was. And it made more sense, too, to have a giant train. And the dress was heavy. It was hard to walk in. I mean, and this dress was flowy and fun and beautiful and. And I knew I did it right because when I got to the reception, there were all these rumors going around about my dress. I don't know if I heard the rumors. Yeah, there were rumors going around, and I was talking to, you know, that you did a dress right when there's rumors at your wedding about what you're wearing. And I'm going around and you're like, I heard that those flowers are from your garden, stitched in from your garden. And I was like, what?

[Danielle]

Oh, those details are out and about. It's not just like, oh, she's going to be wearing another dress. And people. Whatever.

[Al]

Yeah, People thought that they were real flowers that were embroidered on my dress.

[Danielle]

Oh, okay.

[Al]

And then there was a rumor going around that I went to France and grew a garden and had embroidered onto my dress.

[Danielle]

Hold on a minute. I can't say for sure where these rumors originated from.

[Al]

I probably can.

[Danielle]

Can you? Because based on what you're saying to me and how, like, kind of, it's like, yes, a little bit, but also way off.

[Al]

Yeah. There's like, a little bit of truth in there, but it's not. Not accurate.

[Danielle]

I feel like. Okay, what do you think?

[Al]

Before I say it, what do I think of who spread it? Yeah, I think it was a combination of people, but I would guess some people on Al's side of the family.

[Danielle]

Oh, really? Okay. Okay, good.

[Al]

Why? Who did you think.

[Danielle]

No, just fine. It doesn't matter. But okay. Yeah, great. It was amazing. And also, last. Last thing, because I know people are always like, please stop talking before the actual story, which I can appreciate, but this is a big moment in Cassie's life, so suck it up.

[Al]

And I'm gonna post pictures on our regular feed on our national park after dark feed of my dress. Also, just because.

[Danielle]

And also, like, Cassie loves this designer so much that she was even sending me photos of different dresses that she had created out of books. Like, pages of books. Oh, my God.

[Al]

She has a whole library section where she creates dresses out of the sp of books, and she makes dresses look like pages. And this woman is just so incredibly.

[Cassie]

Talent. Talented.

[Al]

I have never. I. I'm kind of the same with you, Danielle, where fashion has never really caught my eye or, like, been a.

[Cassie]

Thing for me, but her dresses are pure artwork.

[Al]

It is crazy.

[Cassie]

You look at them and they are Just, you're in a garden, you're in.

[Al]

A fairyland, you're in a. You're a book. I mean, it is just. She's so, so talented. I've never seen anything like it. So I am just so thankful that she had time and could do it. And she was so wonderful. And. Yeah. If you're looking for a wedding dress that is unique and beautiful, I can't. I don't know. And tailored to you. Yes. I don't know if she has time. I don't know her availability looks like. But God, reach out to her because she's amazing.

[Danielle]

Well, you better not forget to post in this, like when this comes out in two weeks because.

[Al]

Yeah, I'll have to make a day and schedule it.

[Danielle]

Yeah. Because people are gonna be.

[Al]

It's amazing. Oh my God.

[Cassie]

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[Danielle]

Okay, well moving on to your story. You did. I know very little about it other than the intro you just shared. And right when we sat down you're like, just be ready. This story is incredibly sad.

[Al]

Yes. So we're taking a left turn here.

[Cassie]

This story is very sad.

[Al]

God, it was so sad just reading it. But this story I'm going to be telling, a survival story, which is always my favorite to tell, and that still holds true. But this one is kind of a.

[Cassie]

Lot more than that.

[Al]

I really loved this story because it's more of an ode to a father son relationship or a father child relationship.

[Cassie]

And it really explores how instrumental fathers are to their children and the lessons.

[Al]

That they take from having them in their life.

[Cassie]

But it's also.

[Al]

I mean, it's a really heartbreaking episode that confronts guilt, grief, sadness, and it's in complicated relationships. So even though it is a survival.

[Cassie]

Story, it is also just. It feels more of. It's more of a human story, just human relationship story.

[Al]

I mean, I knew that going into this because I saw.

[Cassie]

I forget how I came across this. I was trying to find some type of topic and I was looking for places to go.

[Danielle]

You're like, oh, the topic of survival, which is my favorite, and I've been so many times.

[Al]

Let's do this one. And of course, I found a book. And the book is called Crazy for the A Memoir of Survival by Norman.

[Cassie]

Ollestead, who the story is about today. Okay, so let's jump into it.

[Al]

And of course it's a plane crash, because I'm terrified of planes.

[Danielle]

So as we're about to.

[Al]

I think I like. As we're about to get on one, I think I like plane crash stories of survival because I. I'm like, there's a chance.

[Danielle]

So you're saying there's a chance.

[Al]

Yeah. Okay, going into the story.

[Cassie]

Norman Olistad was born in 1967 in.

[Al]

Southern California, the kind of place where the ocean, the mountains and the deserts.

[Cassie]

All collide within a few hours.

[Al]

Drive.

[Cassie]

His parents divorced when he was a child, and Norman lived primarily with his mother and her boyfriend, Nick. But his father, Norman Ollestad senior, remained a constant presence in his life. Norman Sr. Was an avid surfer in the Topango beach area near Malibu. But he wasn't your run of the mill SoCal dad. He was a former FBI agent, joining in 1960 at the age of 25 and quickly gaining a reputation for discipline and sharp instincts. But quickly he realized he disagreed with how the FBI was run, finding them hypocritical and inefficient. And he quit after just one year. Following that, he actually published a book about his experience, criticizing his whole ordeal there. And he titled it Inside the FBI. That did not sit well with his.

[Al]

Colleagues at all, really. He kind of did a Tell all of. Yeah, this is why I don't agree with how the FBI works. And people were not.

[Cassie]

Were not thrilled.

[Danielle]

It ruffled some feathers, for sure.

[Cassie]

It was after leaving the FBI that Norman Sr. Moved to Topanga beach, where he became a lawyer and became almost obsessive in his passion for surfing and skiing. Above all, he was a man who craved adventure. He was tall, charismatic and restless, the kind of person who looked at boundaries as invitations to push harder. Friends and colleagues described him as brilliant but impulsive, a thrill seeker who refused to let life be small. And he brought that same intensity into foster fatherhood. From the time that Norman Olistide could walk, his father had him on skis. By three years old, he was zipping down double black diamond slopes many adults wouldn't dare to attempt. And at age 4, he was surfing the waves of Malibu. His father called him Boy Wonder, convinced that his son was destined for greatness. I will say that's how you raise a cool kid.

[Danielle]

It is, I know.

[Al]

Yes. You just grow up cool.

[Danielle]

You're bound for great things. You know, if you're like, I do it all already as a child. And it just kind of also, in steer instills this type of, like, boldness or fearlessness with doing things like that at such a young age. And totally. I know different people view cool in different lights. I mean, we think that surfing and skiing and all that is pretty rad, Especially because I can't do it. It's not because it's like, oh, because I do this. I think it's cool. I can't stand up. I've never surfed once. That'll change in November.

[Al]

I, like, almost drowned. Yeah, yeah. You're gonna do it soon.

[Cassie]

But imagine if you started young.

[Al]

You'd be way cooler.

[Danielle]

I know, but hold on a minute. Me. Aren't you gonna take a lesson with me in Hawaii?

[Al]

Yeah, I will, But I will probably almost drown. I'm not a great swimmer. The waves. I've done it once in Hawaii already, and I tell you, it was a struggle for me to even get past the break of the waves. I was just getting hit with waves and drowning, so it'll be something to look at, that's for sure.

[Danielle]

Moral of the story, we're upset with our fathers for not teaching us to surf younger.

[Al]

Yeah. Or ski, dad.

[Danielle]

Wherever you are, I'm mad.

[Al]

I just think when I see kids, when I'm on the mountain, I can snowboard now. And I consider myself to be, like, I would say a good snowboarder. Not A great snowboarder. I'm not like doing tricks and all that stuff, but I'm a, a decent snowboarder now. And it took me years to get here and I didn't start until my 20s and kids rip down the mountain. There are kids that are way better snowboarders than me still. Even now that I consider myself a good snowboarder, they're, they are like significantly better than me and like bomb past me and they're going over jumps and I'm just getting into the woods now for the first time over the past two years.

[Danielle]

So I mean, hey, that's leaps in front of me. You could have been. I always think I would love to know what people like, if you want to like, I don't know, comment wherever you're listening to this or if you can, what you wish your parents would have like exposed you to or taught you as a child. Because no matter how great your upbringing is and how proud of the person you are today because of that or in spite of that is, I think we can all be like, damn, I wish I did this or learned this. I wish I was. And it's not through a fault of my parents, but I wish I would have been exposed to or stuck with learning a foreign language when I was a child.

[Al]

Yeah, me too. And that's not my parents fault either because neither of them are bilingual.

[Danielle]

But. And the school is like, hey, you know, you're 17, you should probably start to learn the basics of Spanish. It's like what?

[Al]

That shouldn't be very. Started in like second grade. Yeah, first. First grade, second kindergarten. It should have been.

[Cassie]

But it's funny though, because even when so we.

[Al]

Foreign language in second or not second grade, seventh grade. And I think back to my foreign.

[Cassie]

Language classes then and I still remember the stuff that I learned in that class. I still remember pretty significantly today. And I'm like, my brain was still sponge. I still had a chance if you.

[Al]

Had just like kept making me do it. Because they had us do it in seventh and eighth grade. But then once you got to high school, they didn't make us do it anymore.

[Danielle]

It was an elective.

[Al]

Yeah, it was like, okay, why? Anyway, other, other schools around the world, I mean, if you go to Europe, I mean, they're taught English in school from a very young age. That's why everyone there speaks English and there are like three other languages.

[Danielle]

We could do an entire season dedicated on the failures of the US education system through no fault of the teachers, by the way, just a systemic issue but anyway, anyway, regardless, Norman's cool because Norman's cool and it's cool.

[Al]

Norman Sr. And Norman Jr. Are both cool because they do cool stuff.

[Cassie]

But Norman's father wasn't interested in these.

[Al]

Activities as just fun hobbies. He was constantly looking for the next extreme.

[Cassie]

He believed that the only way for his son to grow to meet his full potential as boy wonder was to confront fear head on. He would push Norman into the crashing waves of the cold Pacific whether he wanted to surf or not. He would drop him at the top of an icy ski run and insist he make his way down on his own. He entered Norman in ski races against much older kids, sent him chasing waves in storms, and forced him to join a hockey team where he had to keep up with bigger, faster boys. It's no surprise that Norman as a child had mixed feelings about all of it. Part of him shared his father's love for adrenaline and sense of being capable of things most other kids couldn't even dream of. But part of him resented his father's constant push to conquer extremes. Sometimes he just wanted to relax, stay home and watch TV like the other kids. But his father was restless, and sometimes this led to genuinely dangerous and terrifying situations. Like one time in Alta, Utah, when Norman's dad made him ski off groom trails during a lightning storm because there was great powder. Norman specifically asked if they could just stick to the regular run, but his dad insisted. Norman ended up buried upside down in a snowbank. His dad eventually found him and pulled him out, but for a stretch of time, he truly feared he would freeze to death. At the time, he was only nine years old. And his father's response was. That was gnarly. Olstead, how about that powder?

[Danielle]

Okay. I'm not a parent, but you know when a kid, like, hits their head and there's a moment, like, they bang their head on the edge of the coffee table or something.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

And there's a moment where they look to you for, like, is this okay? Or should I be upset?

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

And depending. And. Yeah, depending on how you're. You react. If you're like, oh, my God, are you okay? They'll burst down into tears. Or if you're like, no problem, you're fine anyway. And they're like, oh, oh, okay. Unless they're genuinely hurt.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

I feel like there's something about making light of it. Making light of it or just, like. I don't know, just making this environment of, like, I don't. I don't know, making it less. Like it's okay. Like, yeah, I don't know. Lightning storm is pretty scary. Yeah.

[Al]

Buried in snow and a lightning storm is pretty sketchy.

[Danielle]

Yeah. But I get the vibe if that's what he was going for, it's all for. I understand. Yeah.

[Cassie]

While he faced the elements with his father, he was facing a different danger. At home with his mother's boyfriend, Nick. Nick was violent and often drunk. He bullied Norman, taunted him as destined to fail, and at times, turned physically violent towards both Norman and his mother. With Nick, Norman was told he would never amount to anything. And with his father, he was told he could achieve anything. And between those two extremes, he grew up caught between conflicting expectations and fears. In his memoir, Crazy for the Storm, which he published in 2009, he describes his father, Norman Sr. As both his tormentor and his greatest champion. It also gave young Norman a set of skills and instincts far beyond his years. He learned how to read the ocean and the snow, how to breathe through panic, how to endure cold and exhaustion. His father would remind him, never give up. It wasn't just advice for sports. It was a philosophy drilled into him with every wave, every fall, every scraped knee and bruised rib. By the time Norman was 11 years old in 1979, he had already experienced more risk and triumph than many people would in their entire lifetime. But the greatest test of his young life still lay ahead. He was about to face a challenge far beyond anything he could have ever imagined. A challenge that would come to define his life. Fall is here, and it comes with cooler nights, heartier meals, and that craving for something warm and satisfying. That's where HelloFresh comes in, bringing you comforting chef design recipes and fresh seasonal ingredients right to your door. And this season, they've taken things to the next level with our biggest menu refresh yet. Say hello to a whole new way to do dinner. HelloFresh has doubled its menu. You can now choose from 100 options every single week, including seasonal favorites and recipes inspired from around the world. The portions are bigger, so everyone at the table leaves satisfied. The menu is healthier, too, packed with high protein options and veggie filled dishes that make eating green a whole lot easier. You can get steak and seafood recipes delivered every week at no extra cost, plus three times more seafood than before. I love that HelloFresh makes dinner easy, delicious and stress free. Honestly, it's America's number one choice for home cooking. And for reason, I use this. And you should, too. The best way to cook just got better. Go to hellofresh.com npad10fm now to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life. One per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's hellofresh.com npad10fm to get 10 free meals and a free item for life. On the morning of February 19, 1979, Norman and his father were headed to the mountains. Norman had just won the Southern California Slalom Skiing Championship the day before and was about to be awarded a trophy at Big Bear at a popular ski resort community in the San Bernardino Mountains.

[Al]

And if you don't know know what the slalom skiing is. It's.

[Cassie]

You've probably seen it if you've been at a ski mountain before. It's when they have those poles set up for skiers and they have to.

[Al]

Zip around them like the quick turns back and forth and it's downhill skiing and you have to do it fast.

[Cassie]

So that's what he won because he had been the fastest. His father, who was 43 years old at the time, had chartered a small plane for the occasion. It was a Cessna 172, a four seat aircraft that could easily hop over mountain ridges. And the other two seats were the pilot, Rob Arnold, and Norman's father's girlfriend, 30 year old Sander Cressman. The four of them boarded the Cessna at Santa Monica Airport at 7am and they took off. Normally, the flight to Big Bear would have been quick and scenic, but conditions in the San Gabriel Mountains are notoriously unpredictable. And on that morning, a storm was already rolling in. To understand what Norman would be up against, I want to paint a full picture of the area for you. The San Gabriel Mountains stretch like a jagged spine just north of Los Angeles. From the city, they look like a postcard backdrop. Snow dusted peaks rising above the palm trees and freeways. They're part of the Angeles National Forest, which covers more than 700,000 acres and contains five nationally designated wilderness areas. It was established in 1908, incorporating the former Santa Barbara and San Gabriel National Forests. Long before the city of Los Angeles was built up across the mountain basin, the San Gabriels were home to several indigenous communities, the Tongva, Serrano and Cahuilla peoples who lived, hunted and traveled through these mountains for thousands of years. The ridges and passes connected villages and the canyons provided water, food and medicinal plants. Sacred sites dot the range, and oral histories tie the mountains to creation stories and spiritual traditions. The terrain in the San Gabriel Mountains is steep, fractured by canyons, ridges and cliffs that can confuse even experienced hikers. In summer, the San Gabriels are alive with the scent of sage and pine and the sweetness of cedar. But in the winter months, like February, the climate is harsh and unpredictable. One moment you're in sunshine, the next you're in a whiteout. Temperatures can change rapidly, and at higher elevations, storms gather with little warning. The tallest of The San Gabriels, Mount Baldy, rises over 10,000ft. Nearby Ontario Peak towers at more than 8,600ft.

[Danielle]

There's been so many people who have recommended we cover Mount Baldy.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

Specifically, there's a lot of stories up there.

[Danielle]

Yeah. I don't know if you are. You came across any of them in your research or if you, like, flagged that, and I've had it, you know, in the back of my mind, but I think that there's, like, a ton of weird deaths and strange circumstances that have occurred specifically on Mount Baldi.

[Al]

Interesting.

[Danielle]

Yeah. So for those of you. Yeah. That are recommending it, I noted it's on the list.

[Cassie]

Yeah, don't worry.

[Al]

It's coming.

[Danielle]

Well.

[Cassie]

Nearby, Ontario Peak towers at more than 8, 600ft. They're wild, rugged, and indifferent to whoever happens to wander or fly into their domain. As the Cessna lifted into the sky, the San Gabriels loomed ahead. Norman pressed his face to the window and gazed at the view ahead. He knew these mountains not by name or elevation, but as places his father had brought him, skiing and exploring. While they flew, Norman's father read the sports section of a newspaper and whistled a Willie Nelson song that he had heard him play on his guitar many times. Norman asked how long the flight would be, and his father replied, About 30 minutes, boy wonder, before biting into an apple. These details are seared into Norman's mind because of what happened next. As the plane climbed higher, the storm thickened almost at once. Visibility dropped to almost nothing, as Norman later describes in his memoir. Fog pressed against all the windows, and there was no up or down, no depth at all, as if the plane were standing still, a toy hanging from a string inside the cockpit. At age 11, Norman felt the shift from excitement to danger. He knew that something was wrong. Moments later, the Cessna slammed into the side of Ontario Peak. On impact, the plane tore into several pieces. The four passengers were hurled onto the steep side of the mountain in ice and snow, their bodies sprawled and twisted among the wreckage of the plain. Exposed to freezing wind and snow, they lay on a slope pitched at nearly 45 degrees, which, for context, is extremely steep. This degree of slope requires the skill of experienced mountaineers to navigate with equipment like crampons. And ice axes for security. The summit was only a few hundred feet above them, and below was a sheer drop. Norman had been knocked unconscious. When he came to, he woke up to a nightmare. He was pinned on his side by his seat, unable, able to turn around to check on his dad or Sandra, and struggling to breathe. He called out to Norman Senior, I can't breathe, Dad. I can't breathe. And heard no response. He went in and out of consciousness, later describing it like sinking into a murk of water and then suddenly rising to the top, only to drop into the Merc again. When Norman was finally able to free himself from his seat and take a painfully cold, deep breath, he saw the pilot's lifeless body sprawled out in impossible directions and near the shattered cockpit. In that moment, in shock, he thought to himself, dad will fix this. He'll turn everything right side up again. The fog and snow around the aircraft was so thick, the icy slope so steep, that it was hard to tell which way was up and which was down. As he crawled cautiously through the body of the plane to find his father, his foot bumped the instrumental panel and it dropped away as if a trapdoor down, the curtain of ice vanishing in the fog. He called out to his dad again and heard a woman's voice through the whipping winds. Sandra, his father's girlfriend, was alive. He followed her voice through the blinding fog and found her perched next to an even steeper, nearly vertical ice chute, still in her seat, which had detached from the plane. Her shoulder was badly dislocated. Sandra was sobbing and trembling when she told Norman that his father was dead. Norman looked back at the plane, and sure enough, he saw his father's crumpled body tucked and unmoving behind his seat feet. But he refused to believe that Sandro was right. As he wrote in his memoir, it was impossible. Dad and I were a team, and he was Superman. He told himself that his father must have been knocked unconscious. He recalled the lessons his father had taught him while skiing about how to navigate safely on ice, and cautiously made his way back to the plane to check on him. But with almost nothing to grab onto, he lost his footing and started plummeting down the icy chute.

[Al]

Out of habit, he yelled for his.

[Cassie]

Father, but of course heard no response. Miraculously, he was able to catch himself on a baby evergreen not too far down. The skin on his hands and his whole body stung from the damp cold. He was wearing van sneakers and his feet were numb, but he knew he had to try to climb back up.

[Danielle]

Vans are the like. Talk about the worst footwear for a situation like this, which is the least of your concerns. I'm just trying to, like, break up.

[Al]

But there's no gray.

[Danielle]

There's just no vans. I love vans, and I have several pairs.

[Al]

You're not gonna see an advertisement of them in a mountain terrain.

[Danielle]

Oh, my God. Like, that just makes a horrific circumstance even worse. Just, like, down to the littlest inconvenience of, like, now I can't even get it. I can't even walk.

[Cassie]

Yeah, well, you're just preparing for a.

[Al]

Flight and then to be in a building.

[Danielle]

Yeah, I know. I'm just, you know.

[Al]

No, I just picture it because that's something that. I see vans all the time at the airport.

[Danielle]

I would hate you. And I would be fine when it comes to footwear, because we all would be wearing our hiking boots on flights.

[Al]

So tr.

[Danielle]

Because we always are, like, going somewhere. We need our hiking shoes, and we just pack carry ons, so we can't.

[Al]

We don't have extra room. So we were like, we have our jackets on. We've got our hiking boots on.

[Danielle]

Beanies, parkas, hiking boots. People are like, where are you going?

[Al]

We don't have the room in our storage, so we're wearing it.

[Danielle]

Yeah. So not to laugh during a time like this, because I know this is, like, a huge, pivotal moment, but comedic relief. Yeah, okay, I'm back. I'm back in it.

[Cassie]

Channeling his father's spirit, Norman fought for more than 30 minutes to make his way back up to the plane. And what he discovered was that Sandra was right. His father, his Superman, was dead. It was impossible to process. One moment they had been flying together to Big Bear so that Norman could receive a trophy. Now his father was dead, and he and his father's badly injured girlfriend were stranded, clinging to the edge of a steep ice shoe on a Mountain at 8,200ft of elevation. Their situation was dire. They were trapped in a blizzard with almost zero visibility. No food, no water, no gloves, no ice ax, and no equipment of any kind. But in that same moment of realization of how dangerous the situation was, Norman's father's lessons from all the adventures and extreme childhood experiences came rushing back to him. He knew that there was no way someone would be able to come save him and Sandra in the blizzard before they froze to death. He already felt hypothermia starting to creep in. But in his mind, he could hear his father's voice saying, fight through it. Keep moving. And he knew if they were going to make it out alive, they would have to make it down themselves. Through gaps in the fog, Norman could see what looked like a snowy covered flat meadow and the rooftop of a man made structure far down the mountain that became his target. Sandra resisted moving, holding onto hope that someone would come and save them. But Norman was decisive at that point. It was already afternoon and he knew that nightfall would mean the end for them. We have to move now, he told her. She was the adult, but he was the one who took charge of the situation. Thinking quickly, he snapped two branches off a nearby tree to use like ice axes, jabbing them into the side of the mountain to avoid slipping. As they began to trek down, Sandra's dislocated arm hung by her side. They slid and skidded. It was terrifying, but Norman tried to reassure her. Just hang in there. We're almost down, he said. The same line his dad had told him countless times when they were in precarious situations together. And like many of those times, it was a lie. He couldn't see how far the chute below them stretched. As Sandra struggled, Norman positioned himself below her on the slope so that he was essentially carrying most of her weight. It's a bit tricky to visualize, but she was basically standing on his shoulders as they descended. His fingers and feet were completely numb. He knew he couldn't carry her much longer. And they were inching along at this point only about 30ft down from where they had started. So it's so steep that she's basically standing on his shoulders and he's just.

[Al]

Like trying to slowly inch them down.

[Cassie]

So they don't plummet to their, to their deaths. He knew they would never make it at that pace. But out loud to Sandra, he said, we're golden. It was one of his dad's favorite sayings. Suddenly they slid out of control, sliding down a sheer funnel of ice with no end in sight. By a stroke of luck, their exact angle and a well timed collision with a few rocks, Norman managed to stop their fall. He later described the moment as feeling like a crushed beer can. Sandra sobbing beside him while he stared at her ankle in his hand, unable to feel it there. The skin on his knuckles was gone, a pink liquid seeping out. But even with the shock and pain, 11 year old Norman kept his cool and guided Sandra the rest of the way down the mo. Unfortunately, not long after, Sandra lost her footing again and slipped into another ice funnel. This time, luck didn't follow her. Norman lunged to catch her, but she was already out of reach, tumbling head first into the icy chute. As she vanished into the fog, she screamed his name until it eventually faded into silence. Norman scrambled after her, following the streak of blood she left behind, sliding and climbing for what felt like forever. But the trail ended in emptiness. Sandra was gone, alone on the mountain. Now, he was consumed by a crushing mix of grief, guilt, and something even harder to face. A small relief that he no longer had to help her down and could move faster by himself. That mix of feelings, the shame of it, would stay with him for a long, long time. At this point, Norman's hands were raw, literally to the bone. But they were also so cold and numb that he couldn't feel the pain. He ate a bunch of snow to quench his thirst and pushed on. Not long after, he slipped again, tumbling down the ice, scratching up his stomach, but miraculously, not hitting any trees. Finally, he reached the bottom of the steep, icy chute. And there he found Sandra's lifeless purple body, along with the pieces of the Cessna aircraft that had fallen. Even though he could barely stand, Norman gathered a few scattered twigs and gently laid them over Sandra's body. For a moment, he felt himself breaking. This was too much. And for that moment, he thought of just stopping and quitting right there, letting the mountain overtake him and dying alongside Sandra. But in those moments, he heard his father's voice again. Go for it, boy wonder. You can do it. Before he knew it, he was on his feet again, forcing himself forward. From there, the slope was less extreme, and Norman realized that he could make faster progress by intentionally sliding on the ice on his butt, using sticks in each hand like ice picks to control his speed. Finally, as the sky began to darken, he reached flat ground. But this posed its own challenges. He was hungry and exhausted, and walking instead of sliding took what little energy he had left. And just when he believed he had made it into safer terrain, Norman took a step and collapsed into a tree well that had been hidden by the powdery snow. In an instant, he was buried up to his neck.

[Al]

That's, like, one of my biggest fears when I'm snowboarding, also, especially because I've been venturing into the woods.

[Cassie]

There's tree wells everywhere.

[Al]

And one of my first times, I remember I went into the woods on a trail, and I hadn't gotten very far down, and I fell backwards, like, head first, and my feet were above me because it was, like, steep on one side and my board was above me. And thankfully, I didn't go underneath the snow. But it was mostly in Paris. I remember thinking, like, if my head was under the snow. I was the last in line of our friends, so no one would have seen me.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

But there were a lot of people on the trail.

[Al]

And actually a couple seconds later, a kid who was way better at snowboarding than me stopped and was like, are you okay, ma'? Am? Do you need help? And I'm like, get away from me. As it, like my feet are above my head and I'm like upside down on the side of the trail. I'm like, I'm fine.

[Danielle]

Nothing to see here. Thank you for your concern. Please move along. Yeah, no, tree wells are so scary. And there's always like video circulating every season of people with GoPros that like, come across somebody in a, in a tree well and, and they're just like, yeah, it's so frightening. And they come up on you just so unexpectedly and you just have such limited options if you're to find yourself in a situation like that. So. Yeah.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

And Norman unfortunately does.

[Al]

And luckily he is.

[Cassie]

His face is still out of the snow. But for Norman, he felt like this was it.

[Al]

He was exhausted. He was depleted of energy.

[Cassie]

Any energy left. He was trapped now. And he thought for a moment that this was where he was truly going to die. But somehow, again, the lessons he learned from his father, skiing in the backcountry and getting buried in powder came to him. He remembered the importance of staying calm, moving slowly and using the tree itself to pull himself out of the snow. Slowly but surely, he was eventually able to climb and wriggle his way out. And finally, just beyond him, there it was, the flat, open meadow he had seen back at the top of the mountain. And in the snow covering the meadow, he saw a fresh boot print followed by more of them. With one final burst of energy from somewhere deep within, 11 year old Norman pushed forward again through the snow that was now waist deep, following the trail of the boot prints. And then he heard it. A voice. He yelled and the voice yelled back. He yelled again. And it yelled again. Picking up speed now, Norman followed the voice out of the meadow to a road. A skinny brown dog appeared, followed by a teenage boy in a flannel jacket. His name was Glenn Farmer. The boy froze when he saw Norman saying, are you from the crash?

[Danielle]

Oh. Word had already spread. This is the same day.

[Al]

Yeah. This is the same day. Yeah.

[Danielle]

Okay.

[Al]

Word had spread already.

[Cassie]

Norman told him yes, his father and Sandra were still up there and the pilot was dead. When the boy pressed about his father, Norman heard himself saying that he was dead or just knocked out. I shook him but he didn't wake up. Saying it aloud, however, made everything very real. He had been in survival mode since the crash, but now, with safety in sight and speaking of the tragedy, he realized for the first time that his, his father was truly gone. Norman Senior would never wake him up for early hockey practice or push him into a daunting wave or point out the beauty in a blizzard. The grief was unbearable. The teenager asked if he should carry Norman, and despite his exhaustion, Norman at first said no. But the boy picked him up anyway. Pain shot through Norman's body as he was lifted, his mind buckling under the weight of loss. Glenn brought Norman to a sawmill nearby, where there were adults who called authorities. And while they waited, a woman made hot chocolate for him and sat with him as he began to warm himself by a radiator. Norman had spent a staggering nine hours fighting his way down the slopes of Ontario Peak. He was in bad shape, but he was alive. Before long, paramedics and detectives came to meet Norman at the sawmill and took him to a hospital. On the way, detectives began asking him lots of questions about the crash, like who was flying? Was he sure it was not his dad? Did he notice anybody suspicious when he boarded the plane? Did the pilot say anything before they hit the mountain? Was something wrong with the plane? Norman would soon come to find out that some believe the crash was intentional because of his father's connections to the FBI.

[Danielle]

Oh. Oh, yeah.

[Cassie]

So he's like, why are you asking all these questions? Who's flying? Was anyone suspicious around?

[Al]

What do you mean?

[Danielle]

And I felt like it was pretty cut and dry with the severity of the storm and the decreased visibility.

[Al]

Well, that was his thought too. And Norman doesn't realize this until a little bit later, which we'll get into in a moment. But they were asking these questions specifically because they were worried that maybe someone was after his dad because of his.

[Cassie]

Connections to the FBI.

[Danielle]

Right, Right.

[Al]

Foreign.

[Cassie]

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[Al]

He had a lot of them, but amazingly, none of them were too serious.

[Cassie]

The doctors at the hospital treated him for frostbite, lacerations, bruises and early stage hypothermia. But overall, his the worst injury he had were his hands because he didn't have gloves. The whole time that he was climbing down the icy mountains, his skin was shredded to the bone and one of his hands were broken.

[Danielle]

Okay, that's hard to. I just like clenched my hands together. But I mean, it's amazing that he didn't sustain any, any sort of injury in the crash other than, what, minor bruising in the crash. That's especially because he was pinned under his seat and stuff.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Not even a broken bone from that after that sort of impact that clearly claimed the lives of two people. And then I know Sandra died otherwise.

[Al]

But yeah, it's still though, I mean, it's miraculous that that happened and the fact that going down that steep terrain that these are his only injuries, and I mean, that is.

[Danielle]

To the bone is pretty.

[Al]

To the bone is pretty gruesome. But also there's kind of like a saving grace in here where he was so cold that he couldn't feel it.

[Danielle]

Right. And the adrenaline and shock and survival mode, everything else.

[Al]

Yeah, yeah. Well, now that he's back and he's in a hospital and he's getting care now, this is the first time where.

[Cassie]

He'S really seeing his hand and now.

[Al]

He'S actually experiencing the pain because he's warmed up again and he's like, oh, like I'm actually injured.

[Cassie]

Norman's mother met him at the hospital. The relief for her was overwhelming. But for Norman, the time in the hospital was disorienting. News of the boy survivor had spread instantly. Within hours, headlines blared across the country. Boy survives Air Crash and Track and Snow. Reporters flocked to the hospital eager to interview him and learn of his ordeal. Norman, an 11 year old child, found himself at the center of a media circus. The very next morning, he was wheeled into a room in the hospital that was full of reporters and interviewed. Journalists asked him to recount every moment of the traumatizing experience he had just lived through. From the crash to Sandra's fall, to the hours and hours of fighting through the blizzards alone.

[Danielle]

Did his mom have to okay that or I know this is in the 70s, I don't think so.

[Al]

I think it, I. From my understanding, it seems like it was just like, okay, reporters are here.

[Cassie]

To talk to you.

[Al]

And it was like, okay. And didn't really, didn't really think that there was an option to say no.

[Danielle]

Okay.

[Al]

Just kind of thrown into it.

[Cassie]

And he did, he answered them.

[Al]

But the whole time he felt numb and almost outside himself as he's answering these questions, it's just like whiplash.

[Cassie]

I just went through all of this.

[Al]

And now you're asking me all of these questions. One of the things he did tell them, he's like, how are you doing? Or how was it? What was it like up there? And he just kept saying, the skin.

[Cassie]

On my hands kept coming off.

[Danielle]

I mean, the insensitivity of that coming from adults who. I know it's your job to ask these questions and to get the scoop and the story.

[Cassie]

And he's still a child.

[Danielle]

Whatever. He's a child. And to ask how somebody is doing after they just survived a plane crash and watched two of their parental figures perish in front of him, like, what do you think?

[Cassie]

It's like, leave this kid alone.

[Danielle]

Like, how do you think he is?

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Like I, I don't know. That's just like such an insensitive question.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

And to just ask them, recount everything that happened to you.

[Al]

Why, why do you need to, why.

[Cassie]

Do newspapers need to know this and spread this to the public?

[Al]

It's just. Yeah.

[Danielle]

Especially, I mean, I don't know. Yeah.

[Cassie]

But part of when reporters asked him how he, how did he survive this ordeal, he told them that his dad had taught him to never give up.

[Danielle]

Okay. You know, just one second. Cuz that's really sad.

[Al]

The story is when I first, like I, I cried a few times for this.

[Danielle]

Is this one of those times? Because I feel it.

[Al]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Danielle]

Is it happening now? Yeah. Okay.

[Al]

Norman's survival was celebrated, but it also became public property.

[Cassie]

Already on the car ride home from the hospital later that day, he heard two news anchors on the radio speculating about whether the crash might not have been an accident at all, but the work of someone inside the FBI. As punishment for Norman Sr. Publishing his expose on the insides of the FBI and criticizing it, they pointed to the former FBI director's reputation for vindictiveness and noted that many of his loyal men still held powerful positions in the Bureau. This, of course, was completely ludicrous.

[Al]

But of course Norman knew no one did this. We were in the middle of a blizzard.

[Cassie]

I was there.

[Al]

I saw this happen.

[Cassie]

This.

[Danielle]

There's only four people on board.

[Al]

Yeah. It's like, right. The FBI didn't orchestrate a blizzard that crashed us into this. This was clearly not that. But it just added to.

[Cassie]

It made an additional stress on a.

[Al]

Situation that was already the worst imaginable. To have these weird rumors flying.

[Danielle]

I mean, that touches and hits a nerve for me personally, because I've been there when it's like, I'm already experiencing a tragic death. And then to have other people who think they might know what happened and to like proudly state that and like direct comments towards me about it when they have no clue as to what happened, like, it's just such a bizarre experience because one side of you is like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, what?

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Like, how are you even thinking. Thinking that? And then the other side of you is. I mean, it's multi dimensional. But then there's like another piece of you that is still perplexed and shock and it's like, whatever.

[Al]

Like, I don't have time for this.

[Danielle]

I don't even have time for that. And then the other part of you is full of rage. Like, how dare you?

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Type of thing.

[Al]

How dare you speak of my loved one in this way.

[Danielle]

Right.

[Cassie]

And speculate on. Who are you to speculate on this?

[Al]

What relation do you have to this or to even come up with that?

[Danielle]

I truly do not know. And this is just such an aside. And it's not. I don't even know if we can. It's totally not the same thing. But it's such a bizarre thing that we're talking about this right now because this morning I was at the grocery store picking something up and I was waiting in line and, you know, at the end of the. I forget what they're called, but like, when you're waiting in line for. To check out the stands that have like different magazines and stuff on them.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Like at the end of the aisle way. And I was just kind of glancing at them and one of them. And of course there's always tabloids on them like Us Weekly or whatever. And There was one that had Britney Spears on the front cover and had this, like, incredibly weird headline about something to do with, like, her sanity or something. And it's like, leave her alone. I just. I had the thought that I do not understand how famous people do not want to. To just kill everybody. Because it's just. I know it's part of the job. Whatever. It's like, da, da, da, da. But just the amount of articles and different stories that circulate about them and their personal lives, their love lives or whatever the hell, I don't understand how more people are not just breaking under that. And it's just like. It's so weird that I had that thought this morning. And now you're saying this about, like, people speculating about.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

This person's story. And it's just like, I just don't understand what that's all about. And, I mean, I give credit to this kid for so many different reasons, but also having to handle that from adults who are so high up. Not just adults, but like, government officials. Officials that are, like, you know, speculating about somebody maybe. Because what they're essentially saying is maybe somebody targeted your dad to kill him.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

And you. Sorry, you were involved.

[Al]

Yeah. I mean, you just survived this ordeal and you're not met with em. I mean, he was met with paramedics, but also there's detectives there. It's like, why.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Al]

And then of course, you're listening to the radio on your ride home from this ordeal from the hospital, and you hear this.

[Danielle]

It just adds to the confusion also.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

At minimum. At minimum, it adds to.

[Cassie]

Especially since there's no weight to it.

[Al]

And I get like. I guess I can understand, like, just.

[Cassie]

Because of his dad's position in investigating.

[Al]

That, but I think that it would become very clear right away that that's not just asking what happened and figuring out and seeing the storm and everything. There's no reason for that to come out publicly. That that was a thought. Like, I understand the detectives looking at.

[Cassie]

That avenue briefly, but there's no reason.

[Al]

For that to become public knowledge.

[Danielle]

Yeah. It feels like that could have stayed an internal investigation.

[Al]

Totally.

[Danielle]

I mean, they've done bigger and better things of keeping things under wraps. We all know that.

[Al]

So.

[Danielle]

So why is this on a public stage?

[Al]

No need.

[Cassie]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. October 10th is World Mental Health Day. And this year, BetterHelp is saying, thank you, therapists. Behind every journey of healing, there's a therapist who shows up, listens, and helps someone take a step forward. Whether it's asking the right question at the right time, holding space for tears, or celebrating a small win, those moments in therapy can truly change lives. Better Help has helped over 5 million people worldwide connect with licensed therapists. With over 30,000 therapists on the platform, they make it easy to get matched with someone who fits your needs through a quick questionnaire. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch pitch at any time. This World Mental Health Day, join us in appreciating the therapists who make the world a better place. If something has been weighing on you, talking to someone can help, and the right therapist can make all the difference. This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people.

[Al]

Take a step forward.

[Cassie]

If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp. Help.com NPAD that's better. H E L P.com NPAD.

[Al]

Going back into people in his story, strangers across the country and across the world dissected.

[Cassie]

His story, applauded his resilience, and debated the decisions of the adults who had taken him on that flight, including his father, his hero. For Norman, it was overwhelming. He had lost his father and Sandra. He was still recovering from physical wounds and unable to even begin processing his emotional ones. And all while he was being paraded around as a miracle. In interviews, Norman appeared both bewildered and composed. There was a gravity about him. He seemed older than 11, as if the experience has had aged him overnight. Reporters marveled at how calm he seemed, how he could speak of crawling through snow, of losing Sandra to the ice funnel, of hearing his father's voice in his mind without breaking down into tears. But beneath that composure was shock, grief, and a trauma that would take decades to fully unravel.

[Danielle]

I was just about to say shock and dissociation.

[Cassie]

Yeah, you're just empty Responding to these questions.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

Rescuers and the press painted Norman as a symbol of resilience, the boy who beat the mountain. But privately, Norman was just trying to.

[Al]

Piece together what had happened.

[Cassie]

He had seen death up close. He had seen his father die. He had watched Sandra slip away. He had been forced to leave their bodies behind on the mountain. He had fought for his life through a blizzard, always on the slippery edge of a fatal fall. He had lived through nine hours of a type of fear that no child, no person should ever have to endure. For his father's funeral, hundreds of people packed into a local Church spilling into the aisles and out the doorways. When seats filled one by one, mourners stood at the podium to speak about Norman Senior. The service stretched on for two hours, so long that the church had to cut it off. 11 year old Norman cried each time someone rose to speak. After the formal service, one of his uncles hosted a party with a Dixieland band, a celebration of Norman Sr's life that relatives insisted his father would have wanted. Norman agreed, and he danced too. But while people laughed and celebrated his life, he only felt overcome with grief. After the crash, Norman stopped playing hockey, stopped surfing, stopped skiing, stopped doing all those physical activities that he had shared with his father. As he wrote in his memoir, he quote, mostly just hung out with neighborhood kids and hoped I wouldn't turn sullen and awkward. Instead, I came down with a lot of sore throats and had to stay inside and alone several days a week. My body was not used to all that hanging around and grief stayed crammed up inside, inside me with no outlet except the sore throats.

[Al]

And I just think of that as like a.

[Cassie]

You're, you're under such stress. Your bo stress does so much to your body.

[Al]

And the fact that he was experiencing getting sick and getting sore throats all the time after that, I think was a stress response of his body and his immune system and everything, just not.

[Cassie]

Being able to cope with the weight of what he was dealing with emotionally.

[Danielle]

Absolutely.

[Cassie]

So while Norman's rescue was the end of the physical ordeal, it was far from the end of the story. As his physical wounds began to heal, his emotional wounds festered, untreated, buried deep inside him. At 11 years old, Norman didn't have the vocal. At 11 years old, Norman didn't have the vocabulary for grief or trauma. What he had was silence. In the years after the crash, Norman carried a storm inside him. Restless, angry, volatile. By his early teens, he had fallen in with a skater gang, spending weekends crashing parties and starting fist fights. In fact, he got into fights constantly, sometimes winning, sometimes taking a beating. But even defeat made him feel stronger. Every bruise, every black eye was proof to himself that he could endure. Among his crew, he was the most aggressive, the one most likely to throw the first punch. Behind that was a boy trying to outrun grief and guilt. He told himself he was supposed to be tough, supposed to shake it off the way his father had taught him. But he couldn't shake the memories of that day in Norman's words. Words, I was supposed to be tough because I made it down that mountain. The dark feelings swirling and Clawing inside me were something that I would just have to get over. Dad got over his hurt feelings, shook them off, moved on. Bad stuff just had to be reframed. I knew how to do that. As Norman grew older, he found that his father's voice never left him. It continued to echo in the back of his mind as it had on the mountain, urging him forward, pushing him past fear. The impact of that was double edged. When he was alive, his father had given him the tools to survive. But that same tools had come at the cost of childhood, marked by pressure and fear and death. His father's legacy in Norman's mind had also become a pressure to be okay and to push down his grief through adolescence and into adulthood. And to be clear, he wasn't a delinquent forever. After years of channeling his pain into fist fights, he found a different path forward. He enrolled at ucla, where he studied English and later actually went on to law school for a time. Like his father, he built a life, pursued his passions, and became a father himself. But the crash was always with him. Eventually, he realized he needed to tell his story, his experience in his words, not just for the world, but also for himself. It was 27 years after the crash that Norman finally investigated what had actually gone wrong during the flight. He obtained the National Transportation Safety Board's accident report and went over it with a close friend who was an experienced pilot. His friend Michael was blunt, stating the flight had been doomed from the start. Within 30 seconds of takeoff, the pilot, Rob Arnold, was already disoriented. He had started the flight without a weather briefing and without a flight plan. He was using an underpower plane with no instruments on a cloudy day. He should have never taken off, much less proceeded towards the storm ahead. He also told Norman, who was hearing this for the first time, that the air traffic control warned Rob three times during their flight that it was not safe to fly.

[Danielle]

Oh my God. And he ignored those warnings or what?

[Cassie]

Ignored all of them. And we don't know why, because, right, he's dead now since he passed away in the crash.

[Danielle]

I didn't know if there was like transcripts available of him responding and what his answers were to those advisories or orders or warning, whatever they were, you know, because was like, maybe he was being warned. But he's like, yeah, I understand that, but I have no idea where I am. I'm so disoriented. Like it's not like, okay, it's not safe. Turn back. And he's like, okay, you just know it's 30 seconds, like he was already.

[Al]

It seems like he just didn't listen to any of the protocol for whatever reason.

[Danielle]

That's really tough. And it's like, you don't want to assign blame to somebody who's deceased and can't defend their decisions.

[Al]

However, his decision also cost two other.

[Cassie]

People their lives as well.

[Danielle]

Yeah, there's that.

[Cassie]

And this realization really sickened Norman.

[Al]

He realized that his father hadn't died.

[Cassie]

In some grand adventure. He wasn't in this avalanche or swallowed by a wave, which was what was.

[Al]

Like if he went out, was always what they thought would have been. Would have been doing something he really loved.

[Cassie]

It was because of a string of avoidable mistakes. After reviewing the report and learning all this, Michael suggested that they fly the same flight that they had that day, and Norman agreed. They flew the same path up San Antonio Canyon and over Ontario Peak before finally approaching Big Bear Airport, which had been their original destination. Looking out the window, Norman was struck all over again by how unforgiving the terrain was. And this time, as an adult, seeing.

[Al]

Looking at this train, being like, I was 11 and I did that and I had to navigate. Yeah.

[Cassie]

He later went on to climb that mountain back up to the spot near the peak where the plane had crashed. He kissed the ground where his father had died. And while he was there, he found broken carbon fiber shards unburied in the snow from the wreckage. After that experience, Norman decided to write a memoir about his experience and explored not just how he survived, but what that survival meant. It was published in 2009, exactly three decades after the crack he titled his memoir, which I have mentioned before. In this episode, Crazy for the Storm. The book alternates chapter by chapter between two Norman's terrifying descent down Ontario Peak and the years of his childhood under his father's relentless training. The structure captures the truth of the story. The survival on the mountain cannot be separated from the childhood that prepared him for it. The voice of his father is as much of a presence in the memoir as Norman himself. And Crazy for the Storm struck a chord. It became a New York Times bestseller, praised for its honesty and its ability to weave adventure with raw emotional truth. Warner Brothers even acquired the film rights, though no movie was ever produced. The attribution Norman wrote at the front of the book explains his choice of the title. It reads, quote, my father craved the weightless glide. He chased hurricanes and blizzards to touch the bliss of riding mighty waves and deep powder snow. An insatiable spirit.

[Al]

It.

[Cassie]

He was crazy for the storm, and it saved my life. This book is for my father and for my son. Perhaps the most important part of Norman's aftermath was how he chose to raise his own son. He passed on his love of skiing and surfing, but with a different approach. Where his father had pushed, Norman allowed freedom. Where his father had demanded, Norman offered encouragement. He wanted his son to know the joy of adventure without the fear of failing his parents expectations. In that way, Norman both carried forward and transformed his father's legacy. The voice of Never give up was still there, but softened and offered as guidance rather than a command. Looking back, Norman described survival not as a single act, but as a lifelong process. Making it down the mountain was only the beginning. Living with the memory and with the loss was the real test past. His story reminds us that survival is never simple. It's physical, yes, but it is also emotional. It's about carrying grief, guilt, and love and still finding a way to keep moving forward. And that is my story of survival of Norman.

[Danielle]

The end got me real bad.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Was that the second time you cried?

[Al]

Yeah, I'm only. Not this time because I've already read it and written it.

[Danielle]

I know.

[Al]

And go.

[Danielle]

I know, I know.

[Al]

But yeah, I was editing it a bit before we hopped on here, and it made me tear up quite a few times.

[Cassie]

Just. Just Norman. I mean, just his.

[Al]

I think his love for his father and what he takes from him is just such a relatable experience. And then whether you have lost your.

[Cassie]

Father or fear that you're going to lose your father, I think everyone also really relates to. And I just.

[Al]

This story was so much more, as I mentioned at the beginning, it was so much more than about survival, but.

[Cassie]

Also just about relationships and your relationship with your parent.

[Danielle]

Yeah. And I. I think that, you know, how you were describing his relationship that he now has with his son and like the tweaks that he's made based off of his own experience, I mean, I think that just comes with every generation. Right. It's like you can love and admire and kind of glorify somebody. I mean, I feel like I do that a bit with my dad and I'm not a parent, so I can't speak to it 100%, but I think even in those times where it's like, I loved almost all of these things about, you know, my mom, my dad, my parental figure, but if, you know, when it's my time to do it, I'm gonna do like a lot of that, but with just like a little bit of a spin based off of, like, how I feel about how I was raised. And I think that there. You know, there's definitely extremes to that. There's some people who are like, I want to parent in no way, shape or form like how I was raised.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

You know, and that's totally fair. And everyone has different relationships and dynamics with their parental figures. But I think we're always basing how we move forward, either as a parent or as a person, based on how, you know, the lessons or experiences we had with our own people who raised us. And we're always just kind of hopefully getting better and better as the generations go on. And kind of like that generational change.

[Cassie]

Everyone strives to be better. Even if you have a great childhood.

[Al]

And you don't have. Even if you have the perfect childhood. I think that everyone is always like, okay, my parents.

[Cassie]

Parents did this and did the best that they could.

[Al]

I'm gonna step it up and do a little bit better. And I think that's always the theme with the next generation, is you try to do better. Even if it was great, there's always room for better.

[Danielle]

Yeah, for sure. Oh, my God. I'm not gonna lie. This one definitely. This one definitely made me miss my dad a lot.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

But in a really good way, because, like, he wasn't an extreme, like, skier, snowboarder, like, super cool in that way, but just like, the. Just the. The. You know, as far as how Norman is, like, I. So many parts of myself, not just the things and activities I do, but the mentality I have, I got from my dad. And, like, I can totally relate to that. And even though I can't stand on a snowboard or surf for shit, but it's different.

[Al]

Like, everyone takes something from their dad. You know, everyone who has or has a father figure in their life. I think that there.

[Cassie]

There's so many.

[Al]

Whatever it is you take from your dad, it's special to you. And I thought that Norman's story just really highlighted how complicated and important that is of how your father. I think that fathers aren't always appreciated or highlighted. Highlighted enough of the important roles that they have with their kids. And this one I just really felt for. Because I just thought that it was really nice how much he took the. All of those times where he was like, dad, why are you taking me and making me do this stuff?

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Al]

Push came to shove. It was his dad's voice.

[Cassie]

Voice.

[Al]

That was his voice of reason and his voice of survival that was like.

[Cassie]

You can do it. Push yourself. You've got this.

[Al]

Like, it was always his dad's voice that came back to him, and I just thought that that was really special.

[Danielle]

Well, thanks for covering it however you found it, because I know you said you've. It's been a while since you. You're like. I don't even know how I came across.

[Al]

I think I was literally just looking for survival stories, and I came across an article that mentioned. I feel like. Like I could be wrong, but I just was like, wait, what is this? What do you mean? And, yeah, at first, when I saw.

[Cassie]

The story, I saw that he was only stranded for nine hours, and I.

[Al]

Was like, does that really. What kind of survival story?

[Danielle]

Oh, my God.

[Al]

Hours that I could do a whole episode on, you know? And then when I really started looking.

[Cassie]

Into it, it was more about the dynamic with his dad that really caught me. And, of course, his age and the survi. His survival story is miraculous, Especially. Especially considering the terrain he was in.

[Al]

But it was just something about the family dynamic that really, really touched me.

[Danielle]

Well, thank you for sharing it. And as always, we will put the book up not only in the episode description, but on the bookshelf tab of our website. So if you're looking for some inspo and want to know more about Norman's story and his relationship. Relationship with his dad, that'll be there. And great. Thanks for making. I'm like, God, we need to f. We. I feel like I've said this before, but I think we need to come up with, like, a little thing. No, we don't have to do it every time, because sometimes it's a natural, like, everything's okay to end on, but for these, especially when it's just kind of like. Well. And that's it.

[Al]

Yeah. Yeah. We need a. We need a way to end the episodes that has a little bit more of an uplifting turn.

[Danielle]

Yeah, I'm not gonna come up with it right now.

[Al]

It's not gonna be today, so.

[Danielle]

No, we're just gonna leave. It certainly will not be. Just know we're thinking about it. It's on our way.

[Al]

And send us your ideas, if you have some.

[Danielle]

That would be great. I. I have a lot on my plate. I can't think about that.

[Al]

We need help.

[Danielle]

We need help. Please, Please. All right, well, we will see everyone next week, and it's exciting because it is officially the start of a lot of people's favorite season, which is spooky season.

[Al]

I think I'm gonna go all in this this year. Oh, I think I'm even gonna. I think I'm even gonna Get. I'm gonna go get my nails done and get like the little ghosts and spider webs on my nails. And I'm gonna wear black and orange and read spooky books.

[Danielle]

Okay. That is all in it feels like.

[Al]

And go to Salem.

[Danielle]

Ah, yes. Well, God bless. I was there a couple weeks ago at the beginning of September.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

And already there was so many people there. I'm like, what? I thought I was here early. I thought I missed it. Kourtney Kardashian was there there recently. Did you see that?

[Al]

I didn't. I mean, I saw it because I saw. You said they were in New Hampshire.

[Danielle]

They were. And then I saw. I think cuz it was on my algorithm, somebody posted a. A little clip of Travis Barker and their kid, like, on the steps near the, like, Hocus Pocus Town hall, like on that main drag there.

[Al]

Oh, yeah.

[Danielle]

And Courtney was listening to a tour guide give a. Like a talk. Like, oh, my God, that would have been so cool. I wouldn't have said anything to her because I don't want to be one of those people that is. I don't even know what I would say. I can't be like, hey, you're the only Kardashian I like. I can't say that. But anyways. Yeah. So spooky season's around the corner here in New England. Allegedly. The first week of October is supposed to be peak foliage.

[Al]

So although I've been hearing conflicting things because we're in a drought right now, so people are thinking that the foliage is going to not be as good this year. And I was up in northern New Hampshire last week, and I did notice one, the foliage is already starting, which is. It feels really early, like significantly starting, but also a lot of it is brown. Like, it's like dead leaves already. And I've noticed it here. And it's weird because Vermont, I don't know what it is about my location specifically, and maybe it's because we have a lot of water right here, but if you're at my house, it looks like full summer. There's no changing leaves at all.

[Cassie]

Like, the view that you see, there's.

[Al]

No changing leaves anywhere. You get to town and everything's already changing. So. Which is weird because I'm at high elevation and town is at lower elevation. So I don't know.

[Danielle]

Interesting.

[Al]

But yeah.

[Danielle]

Well, hopefully we get a little something something, because I feel like this is the first year in a lot of years that I've been around in New England for fall. Just between our purse Our personal trips, our trips with the podcast, and then of course, living either in Colorado or Washington or just away, you know, like, I just. I haven't really had a true New England fall in a while. So if there's this time around, it's like, womp, womp, womp, womp, womp. I'm going to be a little. A little.

[Al]

It's going to be great. It's still fall in New England. This is our thriving season.

[Danielle]

I know. I need to go get like apple cider things.

[Al]

We did that yesterday. Oh, this is a great way to end.

[Danielle]

I know. I'm like, we're already talking about. We've done it. I don't know how we did it, but here we are.

[Al]

Here we are. I went apple picking yesterday and we.

[Cassie]

Went to a local.

[Al]

I mean, it's a tourist trap, but we went to a local cider mill and we got apple cider and donuts. And I came home and I made an apple crisp with ice cream and caramel and it was really, really lovely.

[Cassie]

And the weather was great.

[Al]

So we're heading into fall time and I'm gonna make an apple pie soon.

[Danielle]

And did you get like five apples?

[Al]

Yeah, I got way too many apples. I thought, like, I made the apple crisp. I used 11 apples for my apple crisp, and I not even close to finished with my apples. So now I have to make an apple pie.

[Danielle]

And maybe apple pie, you always get far too many. You just go, you. I don't know, there's something about being in an orchard. You just. You're breathing in that air.

[Al]

You're like, I gotta fill this. I eat every apple.

[Danielle]

It's like, for what? It's like I've eaten pineapples nails in the last six months. Why do I need 28 of them now?

[Al]

I don't know. But it's an emergency. What New England fall does to you.

[Danielle]

I know, it does. Something shifts and you're like, like you. You just said you're like, I'm gonna. For somebody who doesn't get their nails done ever to now want spider webs and ghosts on them. So it. The. The transformation is upon us.

[Al]

It is. Actually, I think what's also inspired it is so I got my nails done for my wedding, which I knew at the salon when she was like, is this long enough? I'm like, I want it shorter. I want it shorter. And then she eventually got to a length and she's like, you're gonna want it like this long. I don't know. She convinced me I Wanted long nails. I did not. I cut them literally the day after the wedding. I chopped them down to be super short.

[Cassie]

But my nails grow really, really fast.

[Al]

So they're already really long again. But they have the gel on them, and I can't take the gel off. So now I have to, like, go back and get them done again. So I'm like, well, that's how it starts. Yeah.

[Danielle]

Might as well get some ghosts.

[Al]

Might as well get some ghosts. Yeah. But I feel like it's too early to do it now, so I'm gonna have to go back twice, Right? Yeah.

[Danielle]

Okay. Well, I know you're, like, three hours away from me, but are you going to, like, a normal nail salon or one that specializes in, like, art? Nail art.

[Al]

Art. They do both, I think.

[Danielle]

Okay. Because there's a nail salon, like, in a neighboring town that is so great, and they're the best. I'm gonna shout them out anyway. They're called Black Heart Nail Studio.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

And.

[Cassie]

Oh, you showed me them before.

[Danielle]

Oh, my God, she's amazing. Michaela is the owner. It's amazing. If you're in southern New Hampshire, they book up, like, months in advance because all of their nail artists are amazing. But I would. I don't get my nail. I mean, I got my nails done for your wedding and I just painted them black. They're not long enough or really, like, to do intricate designs. I wish I was one of those people, but. So I feel bad just going there for plain nails because they do such awesome work. But it. They are just amazing at what they do. And it's in a haunted building in downtown Dover, New Hampshire, and you walk in and everything is, like, gothic themed. And it's not a normal, like, running.

[Al]

Maybe I'll go there before I go to Salem.

[Danielle]

Please do. You should. You honestly should.

[Al]

That'd be fun.

[Danielle]

Oh, my God, please do. And then drop me off some apple treat.

[Al]

I'll bring you an apple pie.

[Danielle]

Please do. Because I don't really. I want to indulge, but I don't want to go myself and because I know what will happen, and I won't be up to my neck in apples as you are.

[Al]

Yeah, it's. It's a tough problem to have, but also it's nice because my house smells so good. Yesterday. It was, like, epitome of fall.

[Danielle]

Oh, do I simmer pot?

[Al]

Can you do a. I did a simmer pot yesterday with apples. No, I didn't. So I was making apple crisp, but I did simmer pot of orange. Oranges Sage and cinnamon.

[Danielle]

Okay. I didn't know if there's one with apples or not.

[Al]

Probably. I didn't even. Honestly, I did it because I. I did a simmer pot because I did an oven clean and I. It was like smoky and it smelled like burnt and kind of gross in here. After I did the self cleaning oven thing and I couldn't get the smell out. Like we had all the windows open, fans, everything. And I was like, I'm gonna do a simmer pot and I had that and it's smells so good in here.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Al]

Okay, do it again just because.

[Danielle]

Well, our whatever the heck that just was worked. I feel better.

[Al]

Yeah, I forgot we were still recording. All right, thank you everyone for hanging out.

[Danielle]

We can cut it if you want. No, no.

[Al]

Let the people hear us.

[Danielle]

Yeah. Okay. Well, we will see everyone next week. Week. And in the meantime, enjoy the view.

[Al]

But watch your back.

[Danielle]

Bye, everyone.

[Al]

Bye.

[Danielle]

Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark book club, live streams, Discord, and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and xationalparkafterdark.

[Annie Elise]

Are you someone who watches every true crime documentary the day that it releases and then find yourself always wanting to know more, Googling the timelines from Red Flags and then falling into the social media rabbit hole. Well, I'm here to do all of that for you. Bringing the facts, theories and details that no one else is covering on my hit true crime podcast, Serial Lessly with Annie Elise. Whether it's everything with the Idaho four case now that the documents are unsealed, or shocking cases you've never heard of, packed with love triangles, cults and twists you won't see coming. With over a million downloads a week, I break it down for you, just like your best friend would, Serialist with Annie Elise. New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.