← National Park After Dark
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- [00:01]
A
As long as there have been wars, there have been dissidents, defectors and deserters. During wartime, defectors are military personnel or civilians who abandon their country or cause to join the opposing side. In the United States, Benedict Arnold is perhaps the most infamous defector, dating back to the American Revolutionary War when he defected to side with the British. Then there's Desmond Dossier, who, instead of avoiding war entirely, refused to carry a weapon due to his faith. During World War II, although he still served as a medic and saved dozens of lives, his decision showed that avoiding war can sometimes mean refusing to participate in violence. More recently, during the Vietnam War, Muhammad Ali famously refused to be drafted into the US military, citing his religious beliefs and opposition to the war. His stance cost him his heavyweight title and led to legal battles, but it also made him a global symbol of resistance and conscience. Over the years, countless others have evaded the draft to avoid military service, and even more have participated in anti war protests and have shaped the course of history. In May of 1940, what started as an occasional joke between two friends quickly became a reality. At the outbreak of World War II, a quiet act of defiance unfolded in the Namibian desert. Instead of facing internment or being forced to fight a war they did not support, Henno Martin and Herman Korn would flee into the barren wilderness of the Namib Desert to try and survive. Welcome to National Park After D. Wow.
- [01:56]
B
You're doing a World War II episode and I'm so excited.
- [01:59]
A
That's also kind of survival. Wow. I did this for you, Cassie.
- [02:03]
B
Thank you. This is like everything I could have ever dreamed of.
- [02:07]
A
You're welcome. Thank you and welcome everybody to National Park After Dark. I'm Danielle.
- [02:11]
B
I'm Cassie.
- [02:12]
A
And we are going to Africa for this episode, specifically to Namibia, which is gorgeous, by the way.
- [02:22]
B
Absolutely gorgeous.
- [02:24]
A
I think of you a lot when I look at pictures of this country because of. I just feel like it's a photographer's dream, you know what I mean? It's just like the rich red of the desert that just kind of cascades right into the ocean and there's just, I don't know, it's just otherworldly looking and it feels like something that's so unique as far as landscape photography. And I just feel like you would love it.
- [02:52]
B
Let's take our listeners there.
- [02:54]
A
Okay, let's.
- [02:56]
B
And also let's take them to Socotra. Remind me again, it's in Yemen.
- [03:01]
A
Oh, my God. I remember where I was when you told me you wanted to go there.
- [03:06]
B
I want to go there. So bad. I want to go there so bad. And they have such cool landscapes. It's beautiful. The dragon blood trees, the sand dunes that go straight to the ocean. I mean, it looks absolutely incredible. Of course, Yemen has a lot of political turmoil there, and it's not exactly safe to go to a lot of the country. But Socotra, they say is really safe to travel to that has been kind of untouched by that. But the US Embassy websites disagree with that assumption. Okay, there's like red warnings not to go there.
- [03:45]
A
We'll keep it on the list just like at the bottom one day. Well, let's go to Namibia. The country is located in southwestern Africa, framed by the Atlantic Ocean, Angola, Botswana and South Africa. Popular photos of the country often capture the rolling red sands of the Namib Desert crashing into the deep blue of the Atlantic. The namib Desert spans 1200 miles along the coast from Angola to South Africa, so all the way straight through Namibia. The only desert in all of southern Africa, the Namib is also the oldest desert in the world, dating back over 80 million years.
- [04:21]
B
Wow.
- [04:23]
A
The landscape of the desert is both striking and barren. Some of the world's tallest sand dunes tower over the desert plains and valleys. It's difficult to describe the otherworldly majesty of this corner of the world. The contrast of the giant rusty red sand dunes against the stark white salt plains. The ghost like silhouettes of the bear, camelthorn or skeleton trees. The incredibly clear night sky, or the rivers that sometimes roar through the canyons and dry up into nothing. Despite its harsh, oftentimes cruel environment, extreme temperatures and tough conditions, it's home to abundant and resilient wildlife and people. Animals like zebra, gemsbok, springbok, baboons, hyenas, and 348 species of birds, all called the Namib Desert home. Native people have lived in this desert since prehistoric times, including the original San people, known as the Bushmen. Along with Khoi, Bantu, Awambo, and Nama tribes, some say that the name Namib is derived from the Khoai word meaning desert, while others say it means vast or there is nothing in other indigenous languages. The Namib Desert is one of the least likely places in the world where someone might seek refuge. Temperatures often plummet well below freezing at night and Soar to over 100 degrees Fahrenheit during the day. Waterholes are scarce and wildlife often ranges far and wide. Because of that, apart from a few small indigenous groups, the land is mostly uninhabited by humans. So why did two men choose this place to hide out for over two and a half years.
- [06:00]
B
It's such a good question, because I feel like there are many places around the world that could have done the job. Yeah. Been a better option. Yeah.
- [06:08]
A
And we'll get into it. Okay, so let's meet the boys. Duh. Boys. Henno Martin was born in 1910 in Freiburg, Germany. He raced through school where he studied science and then geology, completing his PhD by the age of 25.
- [06:24]
B
Wow. Ambitious.
- [06:25]
A
I feel like that's accelerated learning.
- [06:28]
B
Yeah, that's like people usually have their masters by that point.
- [06:32]
A
Right. He dressed like a professor, always wearing his round wireframe glasses, and he was usually in a tweed suit jacket.
- [06:40]
B
That's cute.
- [06:42]
A
It does look like there's a movie that I'll talk about at the end that's based on a memoir that one of these men wrote. And how he's depicted in this movie is just super cute. You know, he just looks like he's ready to dive into a volume of books at any moment.
- [07:02]
B
Yeah, it's like, nerdy cute. Yep. Love it.
- [07:05]
A
At university, he met Herman Korn, a fellow student at University of Bonn, who was three years older than him. If Henno was the professor type, Herman was the more rugged, academic, slouchier pants, mismatched jacket, and a thick head of hair, often seen with a cigar pipe hanging from his mouth. Born in 1907, Herman was also a science prodigy. He collected rocks avidly as a child, and at age 10, he became the youngest ever member of the Sawfield Geological Society in Germany. The two became fast friends in college and beyond. Herman struggled with bouts of depression accompanied by heavy drinking. He was drawn to Henno's steadiness and self discipline. And Henno admired Herman's charisma, intelligence, and sense of adventure. So they complemented each other really well and kind of was like Ying to the Yang type of situation. While Henna was more politically involved than Herman was. They both grew up in Germany in the aftermath of World War I, and they became increasingly troubled by German politics and the surge of German nationalism that dominated the country in the following years. By 1935, the rising tide of fanatical patriotism and authoritarianism in their home country led them to seek work abroad. Both in their mid-20s. They picked Namibia at the recommendation of Henno's college advisor and friend, Hans Klus, who had conducted his own geological research there a few decades prior. The two friends left Germany on a boat and emigrated to Namibia, which was then known as Southwest Africa. And just for, like, a tiny bit of background on this not to get too into the weeds, but it's important for context here. In the late 1800s, present day Namibia became a German colony before falling under South African governance in 1915 following World War I. Like many colonies, the Germans valued the colony, which was then known as Southwest Africa, for its natural resources, namely diamonds and uranium, amongst other things, of course, but those were the. The two big ones. So at the time that they arrived, the country was under South African control because South Africa invaded the country during World War I and gained control of it from its German occupation. And it wasn't until 1990 that Namibia gained its independence.
- [09:33]
B
Oh, that's so interesting. That kind of reminds me of. I don't remember the exact dates, but when we were visiting Borneo and the French had taken over. Not Borneo, I'm sorry, Madagascar. The French had taken over there and they had just recently given them their country back.
- [09:52]
A
Yeah, yeah. So on their cruise south, Herman and Henno visited several West African countries along the way, including the Canary Islands, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Ghana and Nigeria. When they arrived in present day Namibia, they worked there as geologists doing their own field research in the Nakluft Mountains in Central Namib. Together, they were actually the first to formally document the Misun Crater in the Namib Desert, which is about 130 million years old. So it's kind of a big career accomplishment for them, I guess.
- [10:25]
B
Quick question is where they are? A national park.
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A
Yes.
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B
Okay.
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A
Yes. Yay.
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B
Wow.
- [10:32]
A
They also. Well, not yet, but it will eventually become.
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B
But it will eventually become one.
- [10:36]
A
Yes.
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B
It sounded national park like. So I just wanted to check in, make sure.
- [10:40]
A
Yeah, I'm not going off.
- [10:42]
B
You've been off the rails recently, so I just wanted to see.
- [10:45]
A
Understandable for you to check. They also found evidence to bolster the continental drift theory, or Pangea, that says Africa and South America were once one land mass. They both loved their work, and for a few years it seemed that they had successfully escaped the political turmoil in their home country of Germany. But all of that changed on September 1, 1939, when Germany invaded Poland, leading Great Britain and France to. To declare war on Germany. World War II had officially begun. As a former British colony, South Africa sided with Britain and declared war on Germany a few days later. So Henno and Herman worried that they would soon face internment by the South African government, which has control of Namibia at this time.
- [11:31]
B
Oh, gotcha.
- [11:33]
A
Both men identified as pacifists and hated the war, especially this one, which they thought was showing the ugliest parts of humanity and the de evolution of civil as friends and colleagues left Africa to return to Europe and fight for Germany, Hanno and Herman wanted nothing to do with any of it. By the end of 1939, 77 people were interned in Southwest Africa, Namibia, which increased to 96 by March of 1940. The first detainees were known Nazis, but even still, Henno and Herman had to hand over their hunting weapons and get government permission to travel outside of a 10 mile radius of their home. The two men had long decided this war was not theirs. One night they sat on the stone steps outside of their house in the capital city of Windhoek and talked about what they could do. Years ago, they had said to each other, kind of in a half joke, like, haha, you know, maybe if this ever happens, we're just gonna, we're just gonna go into the desert, you know, we work out there anyway.
- [12:37]
B
Like we're, we know the land, no one's out there.
- [12:42]
A
They had left Europe years before to get away from the inevitable, rapidly growing war. And now it was at their doorstep. Despite being thousands of miles away, by 1940, more and more Germans in the city were facing internment. Their running joke about escaping into the desert was quickly becoming their best option. By May 1940, the British were defeated in Norway and Germany had just attacked Holland and Belgium. The Southwest African government began to ramp up its internment policy and by then Herman was set on fleeing and following their initial plan. He's like, hey, I know we were kind of kidding, but I'm actually so for real right now. And Henno needed some convincing. He wasn't on board a hundred percent right away. But on May 25, 1940, after securing a 10 day research permit that they had full intentions of overstaying, they fled into the wilderness of the Namib Desert.
- [13:39]
B
And then after 10, I mean, maybe I'm jumping ahead, but then after 10 days they could just mysteriously go missing.
- [13:46]
A
Yeah, they're just like, we're not coming back.
- [13:48]
B
Yeah. And now it's making more sense of why they chose this location. Because they're kind of stuck in this area. Yeah.
- [13:56]
A
Everything is being, I wouldn't say heavily patrolled, but people have eyes out and they can't just go anywhere at any time.
- [14:06]
B
Or fly somewhere else.
- [14:07]
A
Or fly somewhere else. And not that they, and I'll get into it a little bit, they don't have any sort of survival skills. It's not like they've been preparing for this in any way other than just mentally thinking about it. But they have had years of experience working in this environment, so they were familiar at least to an extent. And it was the only place nearby that they felt they could truly not be found.
- [14:37]
B
Yeah, I have a question. And maybe you don't know this, or this is never going to come up, but are they really just friends or are they also lovers?
- [14:45]
A
They are truly just friends.
- [14:47]
B
Okay. It just feels like very like 1940s, two men who are not married who are like, escaping society in a country at the time that is very. Not for gay relationships. I don't know. It just was giving kind of. It was just kind of giving me more intimate vibes so far.
- [15:10]
A
I truly didn't think about that when I was doing this research. And I will say it never came up. Was hinted at. I didn't feel an inkling of that when I was reading the book. But who knows?
- [15:23]
B
Okay.
- [15:23]
A
I can't say definitively, of course.
- [15:26]
B
And I feel like also, if. If they were, it might have never been known also.
- [15:32]
A
Right, right.
- [15:34]
B
Especially during this time period. But that was just kind of. The whole time we've been talking about them, I've been picturing them as like boyfriend lovers. Yeah.
- [15:41]
A
Okay. Well, good to know that's where your mind is at.
- [15:45]
B
It really didn't seem like they get along and they like the same things and they're alone.
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A
They love rocks.
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B
Yeah.
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A
They hate war.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It's common.
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B
Why wouldn't they be together?
- [15:58]
A
In addition to their travel permit that they secured, Herman left a few clues around his house to mislead authorities to the wrong area of the desert when they inevitably came looking for them because they knew they were going to overstay their permit. People are going to come searching, and they wanted to just throw him off the scent a little bit. Under the COVID of night, they drove their truck off road and into the hills of the desert. They took only a truck, a radio, a pistol, a shotgun, a wind generator and some basic supplies with them. And most importantly, Herman's loyal canine companion, Otto. Large black and brown mutt. And based on photos, he truly is a mutt. I don't even know how to describe him. Like lab Roddy mix. I. I don't know. He looks. He looks perfect in every way. And also I didn't. Real wind generator. Truly is a generator powered by wind. Not an old timey turn for fan,
- [16:57]
B
just so you know.
- [16:59]
A
At first I was like, okay, I'm a little confused.
- [17:02]
B
But a wind generator? I have one in my house. I have a few in my house. Wind generators. Yeah. Fans, not whatever that is. Yeah.
- [17:11]
A
They. They used it to power some small, like the Radio.
- [17:14]
B
And I mean, that totally makes sense that they would need something like that.
- [17:18]
A
I don't know if anybody else was thinking that, but that's what I thought. So I just wanted to click, but
- [17:23]
B
all right, see how you connected those. And I bet other people were okay.
- [17:27]
A
Although they both spent extensive time in the area by doing field research for, and at that point had been about five years or so, neither of them had any formal wilderness training or survival experience. They often camped in the desert for days at a time when they were doing their field research. But they would soon come to realize a well prepared and finite scientific stay was completely different from what they were about to experience. Their destination was the dry canyon of the Khoiseb river, about 130 miles west from Windhoek. To be even more inconspicuous, they decided to take a wide detour to the north so they wouldn't risk being seen on the road to the river valley, which they figured was their best and maybe only hope of finding a somewhat reliable source of water in the desert. Upon arriving in the barren desert, they found a shallow pool of water in the canyon and soon discovered a very pleasant surprise. There was fish. There were carp in the pond, likely from a broken dam during the last big rainy season six years prior. And this was good news because it meant the water hadn't dried up since then, despite the desert's notorious lack of rain. And I looked up some comparisons just so we can all kind of put it in context, because sometimes numbers don't do it for me. So the annual precipitation bases on location kind of varies where you're at in Namibia and in this desert because the desert's huge. But on average it's from 0.19 to 3 inches of rainfall a year.
- [19:00]
B
Whoa. That's like nothing.
- [19:03]
A
So I looked up Burlington, Vermont.
- [19:04]
B
Oh, fun. I was just thinking, I was like, it rains way more than that here. We get that in like a week.
- [19:10]
A
Do you want to guess or I feel like you're gonna just.
- [19:13]
B
I don't. Just tell me.
- [19:14]
A
Okay. So, latest facts and figures place Burlington, Vermont's annual precipitation average at 43 inches per year.
- [19:24]
B
Yeah, I think we're the second rainiest region outside of Washington.
- [19:28]
A
Really? Because I would bet wherever the hell we were in Hawaii would knock both of those out of the water.
- [19:36]
B
We had some bad weather when we were there. Yeah, I read. I don't know if it's truly the second or it's like a close, like second or third or something, but I read that the rain in Vermont compares to that of Washington. I mean, I was like, that makes sense.
- [19:52]
A
Yeah.
- [19:52]
B
It's crazy. Sometimes. I'll be home and it'll be raining in the summer, and I'll just look up my mom's house, this location, and it's like, bluebird day. Sunny, beautiful. It's raging thunderstorms here. I'm like, what the. Yeah.
- [20:06]
A
Every time I check in on you, you're like, I'm snowed in. It's raining. It's a lightning storm.
- [20:14]
B
Life in the mountains. Yep.
- [20:16]
A
Heno and Herman decided to name the area Carp Cliff and immediately set to work to catch fish. They cooked up their first catch on a hot, flat stone that very night. Since they didn't bring a pot or pan, adding some branches from nearby trees for flavoring as it cooked. At Carp Cliff, they found the perfect location for their shelter and home base. An overhanging cliff that sheltered a large patch of flat ground. Even better, there was only one way to get up into the cave so they would be able to see if anyone was coming from a distance if they were to come looking for them.
- [20:52]
B
Smart.
- [20:53]
A
They designated different, quote unquote rooms in the shelter, with a space for the living area, another corner for the kitchen that was protected from the wind, and two sleeping holes for their sleeping bags, which they had dug to fit each of them perfectly, with special little divots for their hips and their shoulders.
- [21:10]
B
Cute. Their dog was probably like, what are we doing?
- [21:13]
A
What are we doing?
- [21:14]
B
We don't live here, do we, Chaska?
- [21:18]
A
Oh, Choska would never.
- [21:20]
B
He would be so pissed.
- [21:21]
A
Chaska's like, I'm gonna go get a new family real quick.
- [21:26]
B
Have fun. Yeah. I will not be.
- [21:28]
A
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- [25:21]
B
Yeah, they had to have compact, not a lot of gear on them.
- [25:25]
A
Because hunting was more difficult than expected, they had to closely ration their other food supplies, like flour, jam, tomato puree, and dried fruit. For breakfast, they ate half a cup of flour mixed with a bit of water to turn it into a thick paste, and then topped that with a teaspoon of either jam or sugar. And unless they managed to hunt successfully, that flower paste would be all they had until dinner.
- [25:49]
B
I hate that. Is it like, are they cooking it to be like a pancake?
- [25:55]
A
I don't know.
- [25:56]
B
Or is it truly they're just eating?
- [25:58]
A
I don't know if it's like overnight oats consistency or like cake bat or pancake batter.
- [26:03]
B
I was thinking like flour and water and you could like, make a pancake.
- [26:07]
A
I feel like they.
- [26:08]
B
I guess you don't have eggs, they
- [26:10]
A
don't make it fluff, so they certainly don't have eggs.
- [26:14]
B
It probably truly is just a really nasty paste.
- [26:18]
A
From the top of their hill, all they could see in every direction was miles and miles of desolate desert. Even though they had spent extensive time in the Namib over the years, it was one thing, like we said before, to be like, this is fun. This is like, not like a Boy Scout trip, but it's cool to be out on doing field work knowing that there's an end. Insane.
- [26:40]
B
Yeah. Knowing that one day you're gonna go get a really hot, nice meal and take a shower.
- [26:45]
A
And now they're doing this indefinitely. They have no idea how long they're gonna be out here. Their new reality made the landscape feel harsher and less forgiving. The hunger pangs were often debilitating, and their plans for work had to be adjusted based on lower energy levels and oppressive desert heat. Just as their hunger was reaching critical levels, they got lucky again. A bull wandered near their camp, and after a few mangled shots, they managed to injure it enough for Henno to close in and stab it with a knife. The bowl was massive and it was nearly impossible to get the carcass up to their quote unquote kitchen. So Herman And Henno and of course Otto brought their camp temporarily down to the bowl, where they cook some meat and smoke the rest to preserve it for longer, turning it into what's known as as biltang, air dried, cured meat. Before their desert adventure, neither of them knew how to cure meat in this way, so some of the animal was wasted by trial and error and the rest was way too salty. But they ate it anyway, knowing that the alternative was starvation. When things were good like they were after the bowl, when they had plenty of food, there was moderate temperatures and nearby drinking water. The two men felt like they were living out a childhood fantasy as real life Robinson Crusoe. However, their spirits fell when they tuned into the radio broadcasts at night and remembered the war going on back home. Their whole reason for fleeing into the desert in the first place. The fascist propaganda was relentless whenever they listened in, and they began to feel increasingly hopeless that peace and mutual understanding would possibly prevail. As the months passed, Herman and Henno settled into their new life in the desert, thanks to a more predictable food supply with their smoked meat and fresh carp. In their downtime, Herman often played his violin or painted landscape scenes with his watercolors. Both men also worked on filling in their map of the area with what they could after what they found throughout their daily explorations, piecing together a more complete picture of their corner of the desert. For the most part, they got along well and coexistence was pretty peaceful. In the early days in the desert, they talked and agreed that if they ever got into an argument, they would each take some space. When this inevitably happened, Hano took his sleeping bag and slept elsewhere, but still nearby for a few nights until they had both cooled off.
- [29:09]
B
See, that sounds like a lover's quarrel to me. That sounds exactly like, I'm moving my sleeping bag over here until we work things out. And then coming back to bed when you guys fix it, because you have
- [29:23]
A
to come back eventually, it's like, hey, how y' all doing?
- [29:28]
B
You still mad at me?
- [29:31]
A
Are we over it? After surviving on only meat for months, Heno and Herman really began craving fruits, sweets, and above all, vegetables. So they decided to try and plant a garden near their watering hole. They planted seeds for radishes, carrots, beets and tomatoes. But the baby garden beds were soon trampled by zebras. Hermann and Henno decided that they would have to build an enclosure around it if they wanted anything to have a chance to grow. But they were worried because any sort of fence or man made barrier would give them away. If someone happened to be passing through or passing near the watering hole, they ultimately decided the benefits outweighed the risks and fenced the garden in, which yielded a few radishes and beets in first harvest.
- [30:18]
B
There's nothing like when you start a garden, actually get something that you can eat.
- [30:23]
A
The amount of money I spent on my vegetable garden last year to produce one green pepper and a couple of strawberries that also, I think, were here before I was even here. Like, they're wild strawberries. I know.
- [30:39]
B
I got two cucumbers. I never got my zucchinis up and going. So if you guys have any. Any tips about how to get good zucchinis, because they kept growing, but they would never get big, and then they would just fall off before they. While they were super tiny. So I used to bring in the house these tiny zucchinis, and I would chop them up, and they were, like, legit. Like, that big when I cut it. And I would serve them to Al for dinner.
- [31:07]
A
You're gonna eat this, and you're gonna love it.
- [31:09]
B
You're gonna love this. I grew this twice.
- [31:12]
A
So
- [31:14]
B
my tomatoes did really good.
- [31:15]
A
Tomatoes, I feel like, do decently well.
- [31:18]
B
Yeah, Yeah.
- [31:19]
A
I. For the last two years, actually, I tried to grow. Also I tried to grow pumpkins.
- [31:24]
B
I tried to grow a pumpkin last year too.
- [31:26]
A
And they would. The. They would. Whatever. The vines would explode, and I would get the big yellow flowers. I'm like, oh, my God, it's hurting. And then it would just grow so long, grew out of where the area was for the garden would wrap around different things. It was going so great, and nothing ever came of it. The flowers would just bloom and die, bloom and die.
- [31:48]
B
That happened not as much with the vine for me, but I had a lot of blooming and dying. Or I'd get a tiny little one that would end up falling off. And by the end of the summer, I got one pumpkin that was, like, this big.
- [32:00]
A
A little sugar pumpkin size.
- [32:02]
B
It was called a giant pumpkin was the label on the thing.
- [32:06]
A
Don't tell people that. Just be like, this is a sugar pumpkin that is meant to be this small.
- [32:10]
B
Look what I created.
- [32:13]
A
Yeah. I don't know how I feel about the. I know I'm gonna garden again this summer. I just know it.
- [32:18]
B
I've already started. So.
- [32:20]
A
Zucchinis.
- [32:22]
B
No, I did. I've done onions, beets, peas, carrots. I've done a lot of root stuff you should do.
- [32:32]
A
My chives went crazy. I was.
- [32:34]
B
Oh, my chives already came from last. I planted so many Chives last year. They're all up, up. Yeah, I've been seeing them.
- [32:40]
A
Same one. I'm like, I was my local chive dealer. I had so much chai. I'm like, somebody please take this off my hands, okay?
- [32:46]
B
Anyway, anyway, use it as a companion plant and a snack while I'm in the garden.
- [32:51]
A
Yum. So now that they were able to think about something other than their own hunger and survival, they were able to take up their scientific research again, exploring the landscape, identifying different geological formations, and documenting their findings. One day, the pair summited a mountain overlooking the Guab Canyon and spent the whole day up there measuring and sketching what they saw. Herman mused that it was like, quote, the first morning after the creation of the world. Henno, reflecting on that day too, says he experienced a, quote, indescribably reassuring feeling of belonging to the wild, beautiful and cruel life of this vast country. It was as though the fresh wind from the south was dissipating all doubts and uncertainties, and a feeling of peace and security came over. It was an adjustment, however, to need to kill in order to survive, and hunts didn't always go smoothly. In addition to carp and the rare bull, Henno and Herman primarily hunted Gemsbok and cliff springer to eat. But neither of them had much hunting experience. And if you look up baby Clipspringer, you're gonna die. They're so cute.
- [33:57]
B
I'm gonna look it up right now. Oh, my God. How would you kill one these of,
- [34:02]
A
of these if you're hungry.
- [34:04]
B
I mean, if you're hungry, but it literally looks like a miniature deer slash.
- [34:10]
A
I don't want to say go antelope. It is a small antelope, so it's so cute. Another tough lesson from their bull hunt was that the pistol bullet sometimes didn't have enough velocity to break through the animal's skull. So killing required more effort and more shots from their already limited supply of ammo. Eventually, they did run out of bullets and had to make their own out of melted down lead shots. Wow, they're getting crafty. Yeah, they are scientists and that. I forget which one. But he was the youngest. He was 10 years old when he got accepted into this, like, geological society.
- [34:45]
B
They're both a genius.
- [34:47]
A
They wear tweed jackets, you know what I mean? They're. Yeah, they know what they're doing. As you can maybe imagine, this stone Age era lifestyle left little time for their geological research and work. Even though they were literally outside in the field all of the time, most of their days was spent finding hunting and preparing food in the morning. After a breakfast, a flower paste and a teaspoon of jam, Herman and Heno would take Otto down to the watering hole to fill up on water and to look for fresh hoof prints in the sand. Then they would head out looking for game, often splitting up to better their odds or try to funnel the wildlife towards the other person. Assuming they were successful in finding something, they'd then need to kill it, which proved continually difficult without a rifle or even real bullets. I mean, they're using their makeshift, melted down, reassembled bullets. And once they had killed their target, they either take the animal back to camp or bring camp to it temporarily, depending on its size. So they're doing like a ton of work every day just to survive.
- [35:47]
B
It feels like every day is all about just finding how to eat and how to drink water.
- [35:52]
A
Even if the days were somewhat simple and interchangeable, they were never boring. As winter turned to summer, their carp pond dried up, killing the remaining fish and demanding they find a new water source nearby. Water levels throughout the desert were shrinking rapidly, and they began to be even more conservative in their water use. After a while, Heno really started to enjoy the slowness required by this more primitive lifestyle. He said, quote, the waiting and listening both soothed and excited me far more than a thrilling film or interesting book book had ever done. And it occurred to me that probably 10,000 generations of men had lived from the chase, whereas only the last couple of hundred or so had abandoned it for cattle breeding and agriculture, thus laying the basis for our civilization, a civilization which, in addition to films and books and a good many really marvelous things, had given us horribly bloody and senseless wars. So he's really doing a lot of deep thinking and reflection out in the desert, which I feel like they're both of that mind. Of course they're there because of that. But when you don't have much else to do other than to focus on yourself and your existence, you have a lot of big, profound thoughts. Yeah.
- [37:10]
B
And it feels like he's saying, yes, there are good things about society, but overwhelmingly there are. There's horrible, horrible things happening within it. And he's kind of found his own peace out here.
- [37:23]
A
The days in the desert passed quickly, and both men felt a sense of deep reverence for what it meant to survive and live out there. Henno was regularly reminded of and excited by the startling contrast between the dead, arid, sun, parched rock landscape all around and the swift and beautiful animals that lived in it. Death, he said, was always at their heels. But they defied him gaily and lived their lives with obvious gusto. Even with the hardships, Hermann and Heno felt a sense of peace and belonging in the desert. While they were careful to keep Oto safe and away from the hyenas, the two men didn't fear many predators. Out in the desert, most of the wildlife around them were herbivores. One day, however, Hermann got bitten on the palm of his hand by a large sand tick while they were taking a midday nap in the shade. The sand tampon is a soft tick found in sandy shaded areas in Namibia, particularly under trees, and they cause painful bites to humans and animals. But unlike typical ticks, they feed really quickly, often leading to a temporary fever or illness. And to avoid this tick, they say to avoid sitting in shaded sandy areas or. And then obviously just to use tick repellent and stuff. But it's like you're in the desert, you want to be.
- [38:42]
B
You need a shady area when it's 100 degrees.
- [38:45]
A
So this tick bites Herman, and the poison quickly made him sick. He was throwing up, was unable to see and unable to stand on his own. Henno built a makeshift camp for them there. Thankfully, they were already near one of the few remaining waterholes and they spent a few days there while Herman recovered. But despite this scare, Herman also felt a sense of belonging and calm in the wilderness, saying, my Paleolithic soul feels at home here. One morning when they went down to check on their garden, they noticed three sets of human footprints in the sand in the canyon. They presumed these men were native people, likely the Koi, and didn't know if they were sent by police to find them or if they were on the run too. Either way, it was unsettling to see the reminders of other humans, especially so close to their camp, and obviously seeing
- [39:39]
B
that there's people there, Right?
- [39:40]
A
Right. Reluctantly, they decided it was time to move their camp. In February of 1941, Hermann, Henno and Otto moved their camp from their cave to a site along the Nosgomb Riverbank, where they built a semi permanent structure and water catchment system to collect rainwater. Most of the wildlife had migrated away from Carp Cliff at this point to be closer to the water too. So they're building up these water tanks. But soon after finishing, Herman spotted a police patrol along the river, which led them to flee and find yet another home base. So they had just finished setting up, but had to move quite quickly again. And their third desert home was known affectionately as Baboon's Hole due to the large amount of baboon feces near the watering hole.
- [40:27]
B
Ew. Sick. Sick.
- [40:30]
A
They moved there in October of 1941. And I just want to pause here really quick because I kind of mentioned the lack of predators and how the men move to be closer to water. And so I felt like this might be like kind of a time to sneak this in. And I'm not gonna elaborate a ton because I think perhaps, maybe potentially you may be doing a story on this in the future.
- [40:54]
B
Oh.
- [40:55]
A
Because you mentioned it and I don't think you formally established you were doing it, but I feel like you claimed it.
- [41:01]
B
No, I feel like it's pressure.
- [41:02]
A
What is it I feel like you claimed? I don't know. I just remember you talking to me about it. It. But it's the lions of Skeleton Coast.
- [41:10]
B
Oh, yeah. God, I haven't talked about that in a long time. I forgot about them.
- [41:15]
A
Well, I'll give you a little refresher and everybody else a peek into this.
- [41:18]
B
I'm a riot for this episode.
- [41:21]
A
The desert does have a small group of Lions, about 150 individuals or so that adapted to live in the harsh, dry Namib. However, in recent years, a handful of them broke away to return to the Atlantic coast and are now among the world's only known marine lions who come kind of like the sea wolves up in British Columbia have adapted to live by the ocean, becoming the only known lions to hunt marine life.
- [41:46]
B
So cool.
- [41:47]
A
Which is so rad.
- [41:49]
B
Cats and water, it's just.
- [41:52]
A
And to see them just like. Because there's some beautiful photos of them at the ocean and hunting marine life and just like chilling on the beach, it's just like, I don't know, your brain just doesn't compute it. And it's also really cool because this happened just, you know, 10 or so years ago that they were first documenting this and they. All the sources I was reading said they returned there. So I feel like at some point in history their range did extend to the Atlantic coast. It's not like this is a first time ever type of thing. But in recent history, they hadn't been documented there in almost a century, I think. So over the last handful of years, they've already started to drastically change their diet and behavior to adapt to this environment.
- [42:41]
B
So cool.
- [42:41]
A
Which is really cool.
- [42:42]
B
Animals are so interesting.
- [42:44]
A
But anyway, so I just wanted to mention that because I know my first thought with thinking of like, oh my God, you guys are out there with little to no protection. You have your dog with you. You're not in any sort of really secure shelter and now there's lions. Well, I was thinking of just like in general, what type of wildlife are you dealing with in Namibia? You know, I don't know. So there are. I did want to make mention there are lions present, just not a lot of them. But there's also hyenas. And hyenas are very scary.
- [43:21]
B
Yeah.
- [43:21]
A
But back to the story. At this point, the two men and Otto had been living in the desert for almost a year and a half and they were running low on supplies. Notably, what really was like the final straw is they ran out of coffee and tobacco.
- [43:37]
B
Ugh. The luxuries.
- [43:39]
A
That would break me.
- [43:40]
B
That's fair. That's fair.
- [43:41]
A
That'd break me.
- [43:42]
B
You know, I feel like that's so little to ask for for everything that they're doing. Some tobacco and some coffee to get me up in the morning.
- [43:51]
A
I will drink out of this baboon, fish, feces infested watering hole. But if I don't have coffee, I'm gonna lose my mind.
- [44:00]
B
Yeah,
- [44:05]
A
Everyone knows that you need a unique password for literally everything these days, and it can be so hard to keep all of those straight and more importantly, secure. I've been using Keeper for the last month and I do not understand how I survived the online world without it. IT Keeper is a password manager that creates strong, unique passwords for all of your accounts, stores them securely in one place, and logs you in automatically across all of your devices so you never have to remember, guess, or worry about your login credentials ever again. Before Keeper, I had three different places. I had an Excel spreadsheet, I had my notes tab, I had random pieces of paper and different notebooks with passwords. And Cassie can fully attest I would lose my mind when I couldn't find them because of course, I don't remember them. And for us or anyone else running a business, Keeper takes the chaos out of managing access for teams so they can securely share logins, control permissions, and protect sensitive data without slowing down day to day work. From individuals to large organizations, millions of people worldwide rely on Keeper to keep passwords organized and accounts protected. Right now, Keeper is offering our listeners 60% off personal and family plans@keepersecurity.com NPAD this offer is only for podcast listeners. That's keepersecurity.com/NPAD for 60 off personal and family plans. Make sure you use our link so they know we sent you. Keepersecurity.com NPAD having a good outfit on makes you feel put together, but having a good hair day hits Different. When your hair feels healthy and looks good, you show up differently. You feel more confident and relaxed and aren't as concerned about taking a look at yourself in the mirror and being stressed about how you appear. I have always loved my hair, so when I started to notice it shedding more than usual in the shower, I freaked out. Out. But then I started taking neutrophil. Neutrophil is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport and clinically tested. And because everyone's hair and hair journey is different, it's not a one size fits all approach. So Nutrafol offers multiple different formulas for both men and women, tailored to different life stages like postpartum or menopause and different lifestyle factors such as plant based diet. So you get the support that is actually right for you. I use the women's vegan formula and since taking it for about the last five months or so, I've noticed significantly less shedding, which is, whew, a big relief. Adding Neutrophil to your daily routine is easy. Order online, no prescription needed, with automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription, you can save up to 20 and get added perks like a free headspace membership to support your hair health journey. Let your hair become one less thing taking up space in your head and see thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code NPAD. That's Nutrafol.com spelled N-U-T-R-A F O L.com promo code NPAD. Around Christmas of 1941, Herman decided to make a daring solo drive back to Windhawk to produce more supplies. Oh, because of the holidays, the city was deserted and he was able to stock up undetected. So he did go in. They just. There wasn't a lot of people around.
- [47:42]
B
It would be so hard for me to go back to the desert after going back in.
- [47:46]
A
Yeah, but they love it.
- [47:47]
B
I know, but I'd be like a bathroom. Baked items, please. I'm sorry, I got lost, but they have a garden.
- [47:58]
A
Well, no, they don't anymore.
- [47:59]
B
Yeah.
- [48:01]
A
He returned to camp a couple days later with the much needed goods. And even some luxury items like figs and bacon, much to Henno and Otto's delight. While in the desert, the two men even became each other's dentists. Herman bit down through the top of a gold crown, and one of Henno's fillings came loose. So Herman had the idea to dissolve a piece of celluloid, which is a early form of plastic, in acetone to harden it. And they used that to make makeshift fillings for each of their teeth, which works surprisingly well.
- [48:36]
B
Wow. They're dentists too.
- [48:37]
A
They're geniuses.
- [48:39]
B
Yeah.
- [48:39]
A
They got wired room, glasses on, tweed jackets, probably a microscope. And they're like, we got this. I'm gonna become a master of dentistry. And what else do they do?
- [48:54]
B
They're gardeners, they're hunters, they're dentists, they're geologists.
- [48:58]
A
Yeah.
- [48:59]
B
What can't they do?
- [49:00]
A
Life in the desert is often marked by periods of intense drought followed by severe flooding. And this was the case in February of 1942. Herman and Henno were sitting on the rocks one day by the watering hole, just lounging, enjoying each other's company, maybe being lovers. We're not sure.
- [49:18]
B
I have my suspicions.
- [49:19]
A
And then all of a sudden, they see all of the frogs from within this watering hole hightail it. They're jumping out of the water and they're climbing up to higher ground towards the mountain.
- [49:33]
B
Oh, that's a bad sign.
- [49:35]
A
So they thought that this was odd. They're like, what the heck is that about? But later in the day, it started to rain, and it rained hard. Because they were in a river canyon, they could hear the roar of a flood approaching and building. Soon, their shelter was completely flooded as the water tore through the canyon. Like the wise frogs, Herman and Henno survived the storm, of course, with Otto, by scrambling to higher ground on the mountain, saving their essentials, like their bedding, cooking utensils and tire pumps. It's like nature knows. It's so interesting. It's like hours before, the frog sensed a flood was coming.
- [50:11]
B
Same thing with tornadoes and hurricanes. You see the birds move, and even trees know they'll turn their leaves down. You know, it's just so interesting what you can see in nature and what they can detect.
- [50:24]
A
It was around the time of this flooding when Herman returned to camp one afternoon, exhilarated but very nervous. For a while, they had known that they weren't alone. Near their camp, they had discovered leopard prints in the sand, one of them markedly scarred from an injury. They had nicknamed the animal Old Scarfoot. And for the first and only time Herman ran into him that morning, he had been rounding a bend by the river and nearly ran straight into this giant animal. And he was. He said he was no more than five paces away from it. Him.
- [50:57]
B
Whoa.
- [50:58]
A
They both froze and stared at each
- [51:00]
B
other like, what are you doing here? Hello.
- [51:03]
A
The leopard was dripping wet, as if he had just been in the river and looked tired and thin, knowing even if he reached for his pistol as fast as he could would mean nothing in this scenario. I mean, especially at five paces away, this cat would be on him if he wanted to by the time he got his weapon out. So instead, he just decided to. To be frozen and just stared at him. And he said, after a long few moments, the leopard let out a low, rumbling growl and then slinked away. Herman went weak in the knees, thinking if the cat was any bit hungrier, he may not have walked away from that encounter with his life. Hanno and Herman did make contact with their friend Werner Seidentoff on a rural farm a few times during their time in the desert, most notably for an emergency visit after Auto chased after a gemspock before it speared him, stabbing him in the belly with its big horn.
- [52:01]
B
Oof.
- [52:02]
A
Thankfully, the puncture seemed to just miss his intestines. So to try and save him, they drove him six hours to their friend's farm, knowing that their friend would know how to care for their injured dog due to his decades of farm experience and working with animals. And by the way, this farm is very basic, like it is also out in the middle of the desert. It's very rudimentary. It's a step up from what they're doing, but it's not like a plethora of supplies or like how they treated Otto was horrific.
- [52:38]
B
Not in veterinary terms.
- [52:40]
A
Yes, in veterinary terms. I would be having a panic attack watching what they did. But they did save Otto's life, and he did survive his injury. They stayed on the farm for four days with their friend, his wife, and their servant, who was from the indigenous Obambo tribe. While Otto recovered after sleeping in the open air for years, Henno and Herman felt claustrophobic in the bedroom at night, despite enjoying the comforts of a real bed for the first time in a very long time.
- [53:09]
B
One bed question. I'm just wishing.
- [53:12]
A
I'm thinking, okay, I'm sure when Otto recovered enough and they were able to head back into the desert, it felt like a joyous homecoming. Ultimately, the Trio would spend 11 months, almost a full year, in Baboon's Hole.
- [53:27]
B
I hate that name. I know.
- [53:29]
A
It's like, can we name it after something other than the picturing of Baboon's hole every time we say, oh, I'm not. However, In August of 1942, Herman became ill. He had been experiencing back pain for quite some time, but what they thought was just a muscle strain only got worse. As Herman's nerve pain worsened, Henno began to suspect that malnutrition was at play. For a few weeks, Henno monitored his condition closely, but Herman only seemed to get worse, with the pain spreading throughout his legs, making it increasingly difficult to walk. So finally, on September 2, 1942, Herman's condition was so dire that they were forced to seek outside medical help, since he was barely able to move or speak on his own and was getting weaker and weaker by the day. Hanno drove them back to their friend's farm and dropped him off before he and Otto headed back to their hideout in the desert. And the owner of the farm drove Herman back to Windhoek and took him to the hospital, where he was diagnosed with beriberi, a specific and severe form of malnutrition caused by a vitamin B1 deficiency. Only a few days after he had returned to the desert alone, police apprehended Heno at his camp. It turns out Herman was very worried that Heno would not be able to survive on his own out in the desert, and he broke down and gave the camp location away to law enforcement. Heno spent two days in jail and then two weeks in the hospital under close supervision. Then, when Herman was finally well enough again, they went to trial. There they were charged with a long list of minor offenses, but no treason or desertion charges. Rather, they were charged with things like traveling outside of the permitted area for longer than allowed. Like years longer.
- [55:22]
B
Okay. It's like a curfew, Breaking curfew and
- [55:26]
A
not having a license to have a dog in the desert. Like, that's what they got him on.
- [55:32]
B
I mean, that feels nice. I feel like maybe they. Maybe the law enforcement were understanding of the situation and were like, you guys went through it. You're in the hospital. You've been surviving for two years. What else are right?
- [55:46]
A
And it feels kind of like they're like, okay, clearly you're not Nazis avoiding. You know, it's like, clearly you did this because you really wanted no part in this. It's not like you're a war criminal or something. Yeah. That's trying to.
- [56:02]
B
You're actually the opposite of a work.
- [56:04]
A
Right. Yeah. Their friends helped them pay the very nominal fees. And they were quickly released and reunited with Otto, who also made it out of the desert with some, some battle scars of course, but overall in good spirits. Shortly after, the South African government actually hired them to do more geology work conducting groundwater exploration to find better water sources for the city of Windhoek.
- [56:27]
B
Like you guys know your stuff, like
- [56:29]
A
you did great work, great job.
- [56:31]
B
We actually need your assistance then.
- [56:36]
A
On the night of August 9, 1946, Herman was killed in a car accident. After driving his car along the railroad track tracks, his vehicle fell from a bridge into a dried up riverbed. He was 38 years old and was killed instantly. Henno continued to work for the South African government. In 1947, he was appointed the director of the Southwest African Branch of the South African Geological Survey, a position he held until 1963. That year he became the director of the Precambrian Research Unit at the University of Cape Town, a position he held for only two years because he was then offered a prestigious role back in Germany. He became the chair in Geology and directorship of the Geological Paleontological Institute at the University of Gottingen, where he worked until his retirement in 1975. Henno passed away peacefully in 1998 at the age of 88. In addition to his pre war geological discoveries, Hanno is created with sourcing a reliable water supply for the city of Windhoek. In 1957, Henno published a memoir about his time in the desert with Herman and Otto, which was translated to English the following year. The German title literally translates I'm not going to try for everyone's sake. I'm not going to try and pronounce it. But it directly translates in to English as if war comes, we'll spend it in the desert. The English translation is called the Sheltering Desert, which was also turned into a movie in 1991, which if you guys want to watch it, you can. I was bored. I felt like I hated it, but I hated it personally. But the book was clearly entertaining and it's, it's available online for free if you want to read it. It. And as for Otto, you know, we got to know what happens to the dog.
- [58:33]
B
Yes.
- [58:35]
A
So it's kind of vague as to what, what happened. But according to Henno, he says, quote, otto lived on for a few years after our return to civilization, but as he got older, he became increasingly deaf. One day he disappeared altogether and I never found out what happened to him.
- [58:54]
B
So it kind of sounds like maybe he, you know how dogs will and animals, cats and stuff. When they know they're dying, they'll walk off to die. Yeah, maybe something like that. But in old age.
- [59:08]
A
In recognition of its unique natural beauty, Namib Nokluft national park was designated in 1979, making it the largest protected area in Namibia at the time of its proclamation. And fun fact. Namibia is the first country in the world to inscribe environmental protection into its constitution. And 14% of its national land is protected, which includes almost the entire Namib Desert.
- [59:34]
B
Wow.
- [59:35]
A
You can still visit the first cave site where Henno, Herman and Otto lived, which is now protected within the national park and is known as the Henno Martin and Herman Korn Shelter on tourist maps. It's relatively easy to access and people visit it all the time. In addition to day trips, some people have bike packed through the Namib Desert and stopped at Herman and Henno's documented site to more closely replicate their experiences and life in the desert. So they used their path of like where they live for two years to bike through.
- [60:09]
B
That's so cool. That's so fun that there's a real tie to visit these locations.
- [60:14]
A
And you asked me if there was a national park.
- [60:16]
B
I'm so excited. Now we have to go.
- [60:19]
A
The Namib Desert Lodge, located south of the national park, has also commemorated Henno, Martin and Herman Korn, their work and their escape from Nazi rule in the Third Reich. A large slab of rock from the Nakluft Mountains they spent years studying is affixed with a memorial plaque honoring their noteworthy contributions to Namibian geology. But their legacy expands beyond the rock. The pair is remembered for their courageous spirit. The two young men who, rather than conforming, chose to take a stand in the form of self exile, who chose to risk their lives in the unforgiving desert of Namibia rather than fight a war they did not believe in. And that's my story.
- [61:02]
B
What a cool story. I've never heard of it before either. And same. I mean it's so interesting and also feels like they made the right decision, although it seems a little wary of what would have happened to them if they like they might have just continued living their normal lives just under strict.
- [61:23]
A
I think they were really nervous foresight,
- [61:25]
B
but they were really, I mean and rightfully so. Everything that was happening in Europe at the time, a lot of people who were fleeing, a lot of people were fleeing. And the people who didn't flee ended up living through some really horrific things. So I totally understand why they would feel the need.
- [61:43]
A
Yeah, I mean of all the places, a really rough place to be, but they made it work. And just such a. A bold decision.
- [61:54]
B
Yeah. And cool. That they did it with no. No skill. I mean, I don't want to say no skills prior because they clearly had a deep knowledge of the land and they were highly educated to adapt.
- [62:07]
A
They were highly educated and they knew the land, but I don't know out like.
- [62:10]
B
But not survival skills. Yeah.
- [62:15]
A
I definitely think their intel, their intelligence, they just seemed like they weren't just book smart. Clearly they made things work in real life applications and they. They did the best they could. And not to say they didn't have their hardships, because they did. But by and large, I. They did pretty well.
- [62:37]
B
Yeah.
- [62:37]
A
Given what could have happened, you know, anything could have happened. And they did have. You know, they had their car battery. They did have a vehicle that they could always be like, hey, we're gonna get the out of here. They had it. I know.
- [62:49]
B
It's so funny that they're like, we just drove into town throughout. I'm like, what do you mean? You just hop in your car? And I would be hopping in my car all the time.
- [62:59]
A
You'd be like, I'll be right back, Danielle.
- [63:01]
B
I'd be like, we're out of food. I'm going to the grocery store instead. They're starving and hunting and stuff. I'd be like, yeah, I'm just gonna go over that sand dune over there.
- [63:12]
A
I'll be right back.
- [63:14]
B
Don't you worry. Don't come back to me with grocery
- [63:17]
A
bags full of sweet treats. It's kind of like a hybrid survival thing because there were very real risks and totally like, if something went down, it could have been fatal. And there was.
- [63:32]
B
It almost was.
- [63:33]
A
And it almost was. But at the same time, it's not like they were stranded in the middle of nowhere with no out. So anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So I just. We've never covered a story like that really before, so hope you guys enjoyed it. And I don't even know if we have a. Need a palette cleanser.
- [63:54]
B
I don't think we need a palette cleanser. I'm not sad.
- [63:56]
A
Sad. Me neither.
- [63:58]
B
Well, great. Leave you all on that.
- [64:00]
A
Hopefully you're not sad either. Well, we'll see everyone next week. In the meantime, enjoy the view.
- [64:05]
B
Go watch your back.
- [64:07]
A
Bye.
- [64:07]
B
Bye. Thanks for joining us for another episode. We hope you learned something new and have another location to put on your list. If you want more NPAD content, make sure to follow along with our adventures on all socials at National Park After
- [64:21]
A
Dark for more stories just like this one. With the added bonus of exclusive content. You can join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. If you prefer to watch our episodes, head over to our YouTube channel. And if you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe on your favorite listening platform.
- [64:46]
C
You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet. Yet drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 20254 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.
- [65:24]
B
Spring just slid into your DMS. Grab that boho. Look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you, and hang some string lights to give your
- [65:33]
A
patio a glow up.
- [65:34]
B
Spring's calling.
- [65:36]
A
Ross. Work your magic.