The Colorado Cannibal: Gunnison National Forest

Summary

Podcast Summary: National Park After Dark

The Colorado Cannibal: Gunnison National Forest

Hosts: Danielle LaRock & Cassandra Yahnian
Date: July 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the infamous true story of Alferd ("Alfred") Packer, dubbed “the Colorado Cannibal”, whose survival and cannibalism in the Colorado wilderness in 1874 cemented him as one of the most notorious and debated figures in American frontier history. Danielle and Cassie unravel the mystery, lore, forensic findings, and lingering questions around Packer’s tale, all against the chilling backdrop of Gunnison National Forest and the wider San Juan Wilderness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Tell Packer’s Story Again?

• Danielle shares that this is a rare “repeat” topic for the podcast:
  • "[02:00] It is a first in National Park After Dark history. But...there's a method to our madness."
  • Originally told at a 2023 live show in Denver; retold here with refreshed research and new insights, coinciding with the announcement of the "Your Neck of the Woods" live tour (starts at [03:27]).

2. Alferd Packer: Early Life & Flawed Character

• Background:
  • Born 1842 in Pennsylvania; moved to Indiana, then Minnesota as a teen.
  • Suffered lifelong epilepsy, discharged from military twice.
  • Spelled his own name “Alferd” (possibly due to illiteracy)—
    [09:00] Cassie jokes: “Imagine having your own name spelled wrong on your body.”
• Character Reputation:
  • Frequently jobless, described as difficult and argumentative.
  • Notorious for “habitual lies, petty theft...hogging food and water” ([15:49]).

3. The Silver Rush & The Fateful Expedition

• Mining Rush Context:
  • Men lured to Colorado by news of silver in the San Juans—a region known for harsh winters and rugged terrain ([13:57]).
• The Journey:
  • Packer joins a 21-man group, claiming to be a skilled wilderness guide.
  • Quickly found to be an unreliable guide; group becomes lost, depleted, and resentful.
• Aid from Chief Ouray:
  • Ute leader Chief Ouray saves them, advising to wait out winter.
  • Most stay—Packer and five others ignore Native advice, push on into brutal weather ([20:02]).

4. Disappearance, Survival, and Suspicion

• Packer Emerges Alone:
  • April 16, 1874: emerges at Los Pinos Indian Agency, claims companions abandoned him; later tells of surviving on roots and rose bushes.
  • Suspicion grows: how did he acquire so much money and goods? Seen burning wallets, spending lavishly ([26:20]).
• First Confession:
  • Packer claims men died one by one, last survivor (Bell) killed in self-defense; admits to eating human flesh for survival ([33:05]).
  • Cassie interjects, “You said ‘feasting on human flesh’ like it was a ham sandwich.” ([33:05])
• Verification Fails:
  • Community demands he lead them to the site. Packer now “can’t remember” where it is—immediately placed in custody ([34:19]).

5. Discovery & Aftermath

• Bodies Found:
  • August 1874, remains of five men found at “Dead Man’s Gulch”—signs of murder and butchery.
  • Graphic local witness account: “looked as if a piece of meat was cut out...the fifth lay quite a ways away, and the head was gone.” ([37:10])
• Media Frenzy:
  • Press dubs him murderer/cannibal, printing wild embellishments (“the breast of men was the sweetest he ever tasted”—debunked as fabrication by Danielle, [35:39]).

6. Justice (and Injustice): Trials & Appeals

• Initial Release:
  • Packer is released before confirmation of bodies—later charged for murder, bounty issued for his capture ([41:00]).
• Nine-Year Manhunt:
  • Lives under aliases; caught by chance via his “high-pitched voice” ([43:30]).
• Second Confession—Changed Story:
  • More detail about group’s demise; claims he killed only Bell in self-defense ([45:49], [48:19]).
• Trials:
  • 1883: convicted for murder, sentenced to hang; conviction later overturned.
  • 1886 retrial: convicted of manslaughter, sentenced to 40 years—the longest US sentence at the time ([55:34]).

7. Prison, Pardon, and Later Years

• Amasses advocates, incl. journalist Polly Pry, who campaign for his release ([59:41]).
• Paroled in 1901 due to age and health; retires to Deer Creek Canyon, becomes local oddity and—rumor has it—vegetarian ([61:05]).
• Dies in 1907, maintaining innocence “to the very end.”
  • Local lore grows: children seek him out for stories; later memorialization of victims and Packer’s continued celebrity ([62:59]).

8. Forensic Investigations & Lingering Mystery

• 1989: Forensic exhumation project finds evidence of fatal butchery and trauma, but cannot definitively establish killer ([66:44]).
• 2000s: New evidence (lead bullet matches, gunshot residue on clothing) marginally supports Packer’s self-defense story, but ambiguity remains:
  • “We’ll never know who did it based on any solid physical evidence.” —James Starr ([66:39])

9. Cultural Legacy & Morbid Memorialization

• Colorado turns Packer into folk anti-hero:
  • UC Boulder: “Alfred Packer Restaurant and Grill” with slogan “Have a friend for lunch” ([75:06]).
  • Annual festivals (Packer Days, Cannibal Crawl 5K, “Mystery Meat” cookoff).
  • Inspires musicals (Matt Stone & Trey Parker’s “Cannibal! The Musical”), books, and cookbooks.
• Hosts reflect on the oddity of “celebrating” a possible mass murderer, and how time blurs the moral lines of legacy ([76:58]).

10. Theories on Packer’s Changing Stories

• Possibilities for story changes:
  • Trauma-induced amnesia
  • Epilepsy and starvation-induced mental state
  • Self-preservation via lies repeated until believed
  • Or simply: “Alfred Packer was just full of shit.” ([77:21])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

Historical Color & Humor

• “[06:01] Don’t trust Alfred Packer, okay? Do not trust him.” —Danielle
• “[15:49] According to one of the group members, his high pitched voice was annoying” —Danielle
• “[25:04] The knife stuck in a tree feels like when you’re caught in a lie and then you have to keep lying.” —Cassie
• “[33:13] You said ‘feasting on human flesh’ — it sounds like you could be talking about a ham sandwich...” —Cassie
• “[75:06] UC Boulder renamed its cafeteria the Alfred Packer Restaurant & Grill with the slogan ‘Have a friend for lunch.’” —Danielle

Key Discussion Exchanges

• [79:38] Cassie’s holistic theory: “Maybe he’s a bad guy with other bad people in a bad scenario... took advantage of it for himself.”
• [80:44] Danielle: “I think the forensics aspect of it is insanely intriguing... if the forensics are lining up, maybe he did tell the truth eventually.”

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Important Timestamps

• [00:02–05:39] – Setting the scene; podcast/tour context, Packer intro
• [07:24–14:50] – Packer’s early life, reputation, journey to Colorado
• [15:49–21:27] – The doomed expedition, conflict, and Chief Ouray’s intervention
• [25:04–33:05] – Suspicion, confession #1, investigation
• [34:18–39:22] – Search for evidence; remains discovered; media explosion
• [41:00–43:32] – Release, nine years on the run, capture via voice
• [45:39–55:34] – Second confession, sensational trial, conviction & reprieves
• [59:41–62:59] – Packer’s advocates, parole, late life, local legend
• [66:39–72:13] – ’80s exhumation project, inconclusive forensics, bullet/gun evidence
• [75:06–77:14] – Packer’s posthumous infamy: festivals, cookoffs, cultural references
• [77:21–82:10] – Reflections: trauma, memory, lies, and the unknowable truth

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, darkly humorous, and inquisitive.
• Hosts balance detailed research, forensic findings, local legend, and their own skepticism with moments of levity.
• Listeners are encouraged to critically consider frontier justice, unreliable narration, survival cannibalism ethics, and how folklore is made.

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Final Thoughts

Danielle and Cassie conclude that the “truth” about Packer will likely remain elusive. For all of Colorado’s celebration of Packer’s myth, neither forensic science nor history can confirm whether he was a villain, a victim, or a survivor—perhaps, as Cassie puts it, “just a bad guy who took advantage of a bad situation.”

Invitation to Listeners

"[82:10] We would love to hear from you guys...what do you think? Is he a mass murderer or just kind of a victim of circumstance?"

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See Also

• Museum of Western Colorado – Packer artifacts & remains (vestiges of exhumation)
• Dead Man’s Gulch/Cannibal Plateau – Memorial closed to public, but site of Packer’s legend
• “Man-Eater: The Life and Legend of an American Cannibal” by Harold Schechter – primary source

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In Cassie & Danielle’s words:

“Enjoy the view, but watch your back.” ([83:13])

Transcript

[Danielle]

April of 1874 in the High mountains of Colorado was greeted with open arms. For it marked the start of an eagerly anticipated spring season, bringing with it the promise of thaw and warmer weather to come. The previous winter had been particularly brutal. Long stretches of extreme sub zero temperatures and devastating blizzards plagued the San Juan wilderness, stirring hesitation in even the most hardened outdoorsman, causing them to think twice about venturing into the forest. So when a tall, lanky, blue eyed man stumbled out of the trees claiming to have survived alone for weeks in the woods, people were shocked. The man identified himself as Alferd Packer and he began to tell his story. As his version of events began to take shape, shock turned to confusion and then into suspicion. Something wasn't quite adding up about his story. When pressed by officials, those versions of events began to change again, this time into confessions that shocked a nation. He had done some horrible things in the mountains of Colorado, but his guilt or innocence proved to be ambiguous. What was clear, however, was the reason he made it out of the unforgiving Wilter wilderness in the first place. Alfred Packer was a cannibal. Welcome to National Park After Dark.

[Cassie]

Hello everybody. I'm Cassie.

[Danielle]

I'm Danielle.

[Cassie]

What an intro.

[Danielle]

Thank you so much.

[Cassie]

You can't end an intro on he was a cannibal and not have me intrigued. Well, that is for sure.

[Danielle]

I'm glad you're intrigued because surprise, surprise, we have done this story before. It is a first in national park after dark history. But there is a method to our madness and there's a reason that we're doing it again. So for the, I don't know, 200 ish or so of you that are thinking, I've heard Danielle speak this story before. You're correct. I did this story at a live show in Denver. I had to look it up. It was December of 2023. Is.

[Cassie]

Oh my God, that was so long ago.

[Danielle]

I know. So when we did this, when I was reviewing, I was like, thank God I still have these notes. I definitely had to spruce them up, refresh my memory, do another round of research. But I'm back. It's all come together again. And I'm here to tell this story again because number one, it's insane.

[Cassie]

It's the only thing I remember of the story is that he's a cannibal. Perfect.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Great.

[Danielle]

Because there's so much more and that it's in Colorado.

[Cassie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Danielle]

It is a pretty well known story for people in Colorado. So if you are amped about hearing your local lore I'm excited for you and everyone else. Buckle in because there's so many twists and turns. But the reason we're doing this is because we chose to do this story when we did the live show in Denver, because we wanted to pick a local story, something that people from the Denver area would be really excited about. And we have a surprise.

[Cassie]

We do have a surprise.

[Danielle]

We're going on tour.

[Cassie]

We are finally.

[Danielle]

I mean, we've done little shows here

[Cassie]

and there throughout the years, but we are officially going on an actual tour where we are jumping around to seven different cities around the United States.

[Danielle]

And this fall, this fall, October and November of 2026, I have them listed here. All of the information will be in links in the episode description, our website, our socials, all of that stuff. But October 6th will be in Minneapolis. October 7th, Milwaukee. October 9th, Chicago. October 28th, New York City.

[Cassie]

November 1st, our hometown of Boston, Massachusetts.

[Danielle]

November 11th, Seattle. And November 12th, San Francis. And we have titled this tour your neck of the woods, because we want to come to you. And each show will have its own little different twist because we're not going to do the same thing everywhere, because everywhere has its own special sauce. So we want to make sure to do local stuff for you. And we're really excited.

[Cassie]

So if you're as excited as we are and you want to come see us in one of these cities, our pre sale goes live on the 29th. So if you are a Patreon member or if you are a part of our newsletter, you're going to get the pre sale information, information sent to you. But for everyone else, our Official sale is July 31st. You can get your tickets to all of our shows. Come see us everywhere. Sorry we're not hitting the Colorado Southwest this time. That'll be for our next tour, but.

[Danielle]

Or Southeast.

[Cassie]

Or Southeast.

[Danielle]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the beautiful thing about the your Neck of the woods tour, it could be extended if and only if this leg is successful. We're not going to just keep going.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

If people are like, who cares?

[Cassie]

If you show up for us now, we'll show up for you in more cities. We promise.

[Danielle]

And that's on that. So perfect. Well, I'm excited to tell you the story. It's quite long, I think, or maybe it just felt long going through it all again. So I hope you have your snacks. Ember is settled. You're settled.

[Cassie]

She's ready to hear a story. She already fell asleep, so I don't know how much she'll be listening.

[Danielle]

Okay.

[Cassie]

But she's really excited.

[Danielle]

All right, well, before we begin, if there's one thing we all need to know and kind of keep in mind throughout the rest of this story is that we can't trust Alfred Packer, okay? Do not trust him.

[Cassie]

He's a fugly slut.

[Danielle]

Much of what we know of his story, especially his early life, came from his own recounting. And as we will learn, he was for not being entirely truthful all the time. And even if he was, he changed his version of events of so many different things, so many different times. It was really hard to keep track of. So researching the story was a bit difficult as many aspects had several different versions. But my primary resource was amazing. And if you need a new book recommendation, I feel like we always are in search of them and you're into this whole, like, was it a survival situation? Was it true crime mystery sort of thing? Please look into the book Man Eater the Life and Legend of an American Cannibal by Harold Schechter, who is a true crime author. He has so many other titles that I was looking into and adding to my TBR as well. He specializes in serial killers and true crime stuff. And when I was first reading this book for research, I was on a trip to Vermont with my family. And I remember my mom coming up to me because I was reading and taking notes. She's like, oh, little vacation read. What? What is that? And she sees, like, American Cannibal. She's like, okay, never mind.

[Cassie]

All right, enjoy your read, Sicko.

[Danielle]

All right, so now that we have that squared away, let's get to know Alfred. Alfred was born November 12, 1842, one of seven children of Esther and James Packer. As a young child, his family moved moved from their home in Pennsylvania to Indiana in hopes of a more stable life and in order for his father to pursue a career in cabinet making. His childhood was marked by a pretty tumultuous relationship with his parents. So by the time he hit his teenage years, Alfred had struck out on his own, bouncing from place to place, finding odd jobs. By the age of 18, he had landed in Minnesota and had become a pretty skilled shoemaker. At the same time, he had enlisted in the Union Army. And as one does when they hit 18, he got a tattoo. It was on his arm and it was of his name and his rank in the military. But it's important to note that his name was spelled A L, F, E, R, D. So Alford, not Alfred. And this is reflected in so many different places when you're researching this Guy. It goes back and forth, the spelling, and they're thinking it was probably something to do with illiteracy on his part. Not the tattoo artists issue, But I

[Cassie]

imagine having your own name spelled wrong on your body.

[Danielle]

Whoops. I mean, it's close. At least it's not grossly.

[Cassie]

Okay. My husband's name is Alfred, and if he had Alford on his body, I would be like, what is wrong with you?

[Danielle]

Yeah, get that covered up. Well, again, I mention this because Alfred and Alford is reflected both ways in documents, but Al Fred is reflected in all official documents and contemporary newspapers. But he repeatedly signed his name as Alford, so I don't know, maybe he had it right. It really was Alford, and then everyone else got it wrong.

[Cassie]

I mean, he probably would know best.

[Danielle]

Who knows?

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Anyway, that's really not even that big of a deal. I just wanted to make note of that.

[Cassie]

Someone's like, hi, Alfred. And he's like, it's Alford.

[Danielle]

Let's just cut it down to Al.

[Cassie]

That's what I do.

[Danielle]

Do you ever call him by his full name when you're mad?

[Cassie]

No, not when I'm mad. Just when I'm. He'll say. Like, sometimes when he's talking to me, he'll be like, Cassie. And I'll be like, Alfred. Like, if he says my name, I'll say Alfred, even though my full name is Cassandra. But Alfred just has two syllables, so it's a little more fun to say than Al.

[Danielle]

Gotcha. Well, Alfred enlisted for several years in the military, but eight months into his service, he received a disability charge due to epilepsy. Since he was a child, he experienced seizures at least once every two days, sometimes occurring as frequently as multiple times every day. They impeded his work throughout his entire life and was likely the cause of him bouncing from job to job because they affected his ability to perform, and especially in the military. They couldn't. They couldn't have that. So he was discharged, but he was determined to get back into the army. So he moved to Iowa and enlisted again, claiming he had been a scout for General Custer to make himself look better. And they accepted him. I don't know if what else he had to do, but he got back in. However, his epilepsy never went away, and it served as another reason for another discharge. So he gave up on that army dream and moved further west, bopping around from place to place, working in various roles, including trapper, wilderness guide, and harness maker. It's unclear if he moved so frequently because he wanted to or out of necessity. But he was a bit of a tumbleweed and moved all around finding work. Co workers described him as difficult to work with. He complained he was argumentative, and his seizures resulted in prolonged recovery times, which prohibited him from pulling his own weight, which is a little unfair. He has a medical condition, but yeah, if he's also a dick, then that doesn't help. In the early 1870s, it was ultimately mining that Drew Alford like. So I just said Alford.

[Cassie]

You did say Alford.

[Danielle]

See?

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Is happening.

[Cassie]

Who knows, Al?

[Danielle]

Who really does know?

[Cassie]

I'm gonna get off of this, and I'm gonna start calling my Al Alfred. What?

[Danielle]

Well, Alfred, like so many others of his time, moved to Colorado for mining. While working in a mine near Georgetown, he lost parts of his left pinky and index finger in an accident. But despite the dangers that the profession entailed, he was determined to stick with it. As was his norm, he moved around from mine to mine and job to job. He found himself toiling away in the Bingham Copper Mine south of Salt Lake City, Utah, when he heard chatter amongst his co workers of something very exciting. Silver had been found in the San Juan Mountains of Colorado. Located in southwest Colorado, the San Juan Wilderness is some of the most beautiful and rugged terrain in the country. It contains 13 of the state's 58 14ers, sheer rock walls, deep canyons and gorges, and thousands upon thousands of acres of aspen, cedar and pine. Home to cougar, bighorn sheep, moose, lynx. And this area also served as the last holdout for the last grizzly bear in the state of Colorado. Shout out tooth and claw. I suggested that episode when I was in Colorado and learned all about that, and they covered it. So that's a really interesting story. But anyway. The San Juans are known for their abundance of wildlife, but also their vicious winters. One of the most brutal on record was the winter of 1873-1874, the very same season that Alfred Packer decided to send it to the San Juans. It was November of 1873, and the discovery of silver in the San Juan Mountains was big news. Just as the frenzy for gold in the state became known as the Pikes Peak Gold Rush, this became known as the San Juan excitement. Many men from Bingham Canyon had plans to ditch Utah for Colorado, two of which were friends Bob McGrew and George Tracy. The pair decided to join a band of men who were starting to make their own plans on making this journey to southwestern Colorado. When Alfred approached them, he had overheard their plans. And while he offered nothing to pay for his passage. He didn't have any money, he didn't have any goods to barter or anything to pay his way. But he did offer a service. While it is unclear if he had any legitimate experience in this particular area, he told them he had extensive knowledge of the Colorado wilderness and would act as their guide. The pair agreed, and after a quick stop in Salt Lake to acquire provisions, the group, which was 21 men in all, began their journey to the silvery San Juans with hopes to complete their journey of 400 miles in 29 days. At first, the group followed the old Spanish Trail, which is now a National Park Service historic trail. Just have to say that like this

[Cassie]

counts as a NPAD episode. It does.

[Danielle]

And while travel was a bit slow, it initially felt promising. But as time went on, it became clear that Alfred did not know the area as he initially advertised. The group constantly strayed off trail, became lost, and began resorting to paying members of the Tabawash Ute, the local indigenous people of the area that they encountered along their way, for help getting back on track and just little bits and pieces of guiding advice. Tensions rose between the men, but there was a particular disdain aimed towards Alfred. Not only were they frustrated with him as their so called guide, his attitude was poor and his character was called into question. He told habitual lies, was accused of petty theft, hogged food and water rations, was argumentative, and according to one of the group members, his high pitched voice was annoying

[Cassie]

and he had a high

[Danielle]

pitched voice and he was pissing me off. It's like when somebody does something that annoys you, suddenly everything about them annoys you. It feels like it's giving.

[Cassie]

Once you get the ick, you can't un get the ick. That's right.

[Danielle]

On top of this, the snow came, covering what little trail there was in feet of powder, forcing the men to trudge through waist deep drifts. And then there was the supplies. They were running out of them. On January 25, nearing the three month mark of their journey, the group found themselves utterly lost and on the brink of starvation. They had run out of food thanks to tipping their raft while crossing the Green river and dumping nearly all of their provisions, and had resorted to eating their horses feed. Despite Alfred somehow managing to lead them to the foot of the San Juans, their situation was becoming dire. And while in negotiations to begin killing their horses for food, the men became aware that they were not alone. While in conversations, they had been quietly surrounded by 50 ute warriors they hadn't known It. But the men had traveled into Ute territory near present day Delta, Colorado, just northwest of Black Canyon of the Gunnison national park at this time in history. Given the strained relationship between white settlers and indigenous peoples at the time and in the area, this situation could have gone poorly. But luckily for Alfred and his companions among the group of warriors was the leader of the Tabawatch, Ute Chief Yurre. Remembered as a friend of the white man, Chief Ouray has a very interesting life story and remains a heavily debated and complex figure. Born and raised in northern New Mexico, Ouray grew to speak five languages and often served as an interpreter during treaty negotiations with the US Government. When gold and silver were discovered and prospectors came into Ute territory, he and his people had many different encounters with trappers and miners on their land, many of which they tolerated with little issue. Faced with impossible decisions, Yuray spent most of his life advocating for the peaceful existence of his people, ultimately resulting in him ceding large areas of Ute land. While he was celebrated by the US Government as a peaceful diplomat, many of his own people and some modern historians criticize him for signing treaties that ceded millions of acres of Ute territory and ultimately led to the forced relocation of the Utes to Utah. The choices he made with the well being and safety of his people at heart wound up gaining him a reputation as a trader and a sellout amongst some of his people. But the details of his story should be reserved for their own episode. What is important to note here is that his characteristic hospitality saved Alfred's group. Taking notice of their poor condition and dire situation, he took them in. He brought the group to his own camp, supplied them with shelter, food and water, and extended a very generous offer to stay the remainder of the winter until the weather gave way to spring and made for easier and safer travel, which is such a olive branch extension of peace. And you know, like he's, this is January, end of January time frame, and he's basically saying, we will feed and house and clothe you for months because you are all in trouble and because

[Cassie]

you're not going to make it out of here.

[Danielle]

Yeah, you're not going to make it out of here. So the group was very grateful for this offer and they hunkered down for one week, one whole week. The allure of striking it rich and possibly missing out on getting while the get in was good was too much for some of the men and Alfred's party they spoke to cheat.

[Cassie]

You can just get rich in a couple months.

[Danielle]

They were like, well, Every, everyone knows about this silver and you know, they're just fomo. Fear of missing out. They need to get there. They want to be the first ones to mine this so called silver that's there. And they were anxious. They didn't want to stay put.

[Cassie]

They were greedy.

[Danielle]

They spoke to Chief Yuray about their options, but he remained firm in his advice. Stay until spring. The surrounding trails were buried by at least four feet of snow. And even with intimate knowledge of the terrain, none of his men, the Ute men, were willing to risk the trek to accompany Alfred's group as guides. They're like, no, you stupid idiots, it's not worth it.

[Cassie]

They're not going to get paid this silver either.

[Danielle]

No, it's, there's nothing in it.

[Cassie]

Why would they go? Yeah.

[Danielle]

As the story usually and frustratingly goes, native knowledge was not heeded. Murmurs broke out amongst the group. And beginning to sense some of the men would leave despite his warnings, Chief Yuray bent down into the snow and drew a rudimentary map of the area, pointing out the closest settlements. The Los Pinos Indian agency about 80 miles away, and a cow camp where the government maintained a herd of livestock only slightly closer. He advised them of the best route, advising them to take the longer yet safer route following the Gunnison river versus the more direct, dangerous route through the mountains. Shortly after, a man that went by the name of Lot and four others gathered their supplies and started off. Alfred attempted to join them, but was threatened at gunpoint to stay away. So when I say he has become disliked, I mean it.

[Cassie]

You're like, get your high pitched voice out of here.

[Danielle]

We can't take another second of this. Likely upset but undeterred, Alfred decided to gather a group of his own. He declared that the route along the river was a waste of time and advocated for the more direct route through the mountains. Despite the group's previous doubt of his skills and Chief Yuri's clear advice against it, five men decided to join Alfred. Israel Swan, the oldest in the entire party of the original 21 was in his 60s and George Noon, the youngest, was only 16. Also joining Alfred were Frank Miller, Shannon Bell and James Humphrey. Estimating a two week journey 75ish miles to Breckenridge, the group decided to send it equipped with food, rifles, a pistol, a pair of knives and a hatchet. A but no heavy winter clothing, flint or snowshoes. And with Chief Ouray and his men likely shaking their heads in dismay, on February 9, 1874, they set off into the Snowy Mountains and Fast forward to April 16, over two months after Alfred and his party left Chief Uray's encampment. A young man named Alonzo Hartman had left his bunkhouse at the Los Pinos Indian Agency to gather firewood when he looked up to see a stranger. A man was walking across the frozen ice of a nearby creek in his direction, looking a bit shaggy. He was carrying a rifle, knife, tin, coffee pot, and small satchel. Alonzo rushed to his aid and quickly brought the man into the mess hall for food, rest, and questioning. Accounts vary here. Some say this man didn't look bad for emerging from the forest, declining the offer of food, opting only for a drink of whiskey, while others say that his thin body was draped in rags, and he he eagerly wolfed down a full, warm meal. What is certain, though, was his recounting of his name and his initial account of how he came to Los Pinos. His name was Alfred Packer, and he had left Chief Yuray's camp with five other men two months earlier. He suffered from snow blindness. His feet became wet and frozen, which slowed him down significantly. And as he couldn't keep up with the group, they gave him a rifle and left him behind in search of the nearest settlement with a promise of returning with help. But they never came back for him. Eventually, Alfred says, he made his way through the wilderness on his own, living off of tree roots and rose bushes. An incredible story, to be sure, but at face value, not impossible. In those first few hours, his story wasn't questioned by anybody, and he probably would have been home free. But by a strange coincidence, the same exact day that Alfred arrived, so too did a group of three men who stayed with the Utes all winter long. Among them was a man named Preston Nutter, who was immediately suspicious of Alfred's story. He couldn't wrap his mind around the men, some of which were his friends, abandoning Alfred in that way. He also questioned how Alfred came into possession of the particular knife he was carrying, as Preston immediately recognized it as belonging to his friend Frank Miller. Alfred explained Frank had stuck it in a tree and left it behind when they abandoned him. Suspicion in Preston grew, and he pressed Alfred for more information. But Alfred maintained he had no idea where the group went or where they could possibly be in that moment.

[Cassie]

The knife stuck in a tree feels like when you're caught in a lie and then you have to keep lying about other things. He's like, oh, yeah, he just stuck it in a tree and I grabbed it. It's like, what? Why would he stick a Knife in a tree and just leave it there.

[Danielle]

Yeah, like one of his only weapons.

[Cassie]

Like what also?

[Danielle]

Or tools, you know, Makes no sense. Likely sensing some heat coming his way, Alfred abruptly announced he had grown tired of Colorado and wished to travel back to his home in Pennsylvania. Claiming to have no money, he sold the rifle for $10 and accompanied by three men from his original party, headed to the town of Saguache to resupply for his journey back to the east coast. If he had raised suspicion before, he really raised EyeBrows. During his two week stay in Saguache, he was blowing hundreds of dollars, equivalent to thousands of dollars today on lodging, booze, gambling, and a horse and bridal. New shoes, new clothing, and $10 in the 1870s equates to about 300 bucks today. So there ain't no way he's paying for all of what he is spending his money on. Like one rifle. Selling one rifle is not going to get you that far.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Take.

[Cassie]

How did you get all this money?

[Danielle]

Well, when asked where that money came from, he claimed to have received a loan from a generous local in the town of Sauatch. Even more odd, he was pulling money out of various different wallets, which he was later seen throwing into a nearby river. Get better at lying.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

I know.

[Cassie]

And also, why are you not keeping a low profile here? I know people are already questioning you, and now you're just kind of throwing your money around or someone else's money around and living a lavish lifestyle when you should just go back to Pennsylvania when no one knows what you've been

[Danielle]

up to, Keep your head down and just go away. But he did.

[Cassie]

And that would be us as criminals. Our criminal advice. Yeah, our professional criminal advice is to keep your head down after you commit a crime.

[Danielle]

And we'll probably have more of it because there's more to come here. Rumors started to swirl that Alfred was not being honest about what had happened in the mountains. Government agent Charles Adams of the Los Pinos agency became involved and started seriously questioning Alfred. Not only because his story felt sus and he was acting sketch, but because by this point, every single member of his original group that he had left Utah with had arrived either at the Los Pinos agency or in town in Saguache. All except for Israel Swan, George Noon, Frank Miller, Shannon Bell, and James Humphrey. If Alfred had survived alone and injured and found his way back, why not the others, too? When pressed on the details, Alfred was insistent that the money had come from a loan from a local blacksmith in Saguache. But after that, was determined to be a lie because that's so easy to check out this town of Suwas.

[Cassie]

Someone in the same town gave you the money.

[Danielle]

Stupid idiot. But yeah, so they're like, hey, so you said it came from this blacksmith here. I'm gonna go talk to him.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Okay?

[Danielle]

He said he didn't do that. What is going on? It's such an easy debunk to make. But anyway, so after that was determined to be a lie, coupled with the mounting anger of his group members. Because now everyone is back and have a lot of questions for him, not just this general who is starting this investigation. Alfred buckled on May 4 through streams of tears. He said he would tell them the whole story. There's no rush that hits quite like the one you get when you find a good deal. When I found out about Whatnot, I knew I'd find what I was hoping for. Really good deals and a connection with the seller. Whatnot is the number one live shopping app in the US On Whatnot. You're connecting with other shoppers and sellers who go live 24 7, meaning you can view products like makeup, pet products, antiques, vintage clothing and more all live. Basically, once you start an account, you'll open the app and you'll get this curated for you page based on your interests. Mine, for example is a lot of antique and vintage wear and you'll see all of these live shows that are happening that you can pop into and in them the sellers will show you a close up of the item, explain the product and answer any questions questions you have, all in real time. You almost never pay full price. There are opportunities for auctions and it's a great way to find new brands and connect with other shoppers in the live chat. I've been looking for a particular brown leather fringe bag, so I have been scouring these live shows and if you have clothes, bags or accessories sitting in your closet you aren't using anymore, you can become a seller. Download Whatnot today and get $20 off and free shipping on your first purchase. Search whatnot WH a t N o t in the App Store, sign up and start finding the best deals on the products. Love with $20 off and free shipping on your first purchase. You know I love organization, but having one of those pill organizers to keep track of a ton of different daily supplements was getting a little bit much. But since switching to iM8, my routine is simplified. IM8's Daily Ultimate Essentials is a daily all in one wellness drink that gives my body the benefits of 16 different supplements in one tasty drink co founded by David Beckham and crafted with insight from experts at the Mayo Clinic, Cedar Sinai and a former NASA Chief Scientist. This drink is loaded with 92 nutrient rich ingredients like vitamins, minerals, adaptogens, pre pro and postbiotics and they use effective ingredients and back them with research through clinical trials. It's vegan, gluten free and non gmo. So with all of that I feel confident about what I'm putting into my body. I like to drink mine in the morning. It's a perfect way to start the day with a tasty drink, loading my body up with what it needs and you should join me. Go to imahealth.com npad right now or click the link in the description and use code npad for a free welcome kit five free travel sachets plus 10% off of your order. That's code [e-mail] npad code npad@imatehealth dot com npad these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease seas so enter the first version of Alfred's version of events. Ten days into their journey, they were long out of food and had resorted to eating the buck skin of their shoes. When Israel Swan died, the men, starving and out of options, consumed some of his body before moving on. A few days later, James Humphrey perished and was too butchered and consumed. The men trudged on. Days later, Alfred was away from the group collecting firewood for camp when he returned to a horrifying scene. Wilson Bell and George Noon had murdered Frank Miller and had begun dissecting his body, roasting slices of flesh over an open fire. The meat lasted the trio several days until food grew scarce. Once again. Panicked, Wilson Bell shot and killed George Noon for food. Alfred, now thoroughly frightened of what Belle was capable of, claimed to be afraid for his own life. So they had a conversation and essentially made a pact. He and Belle would not kill one another despite their agreement, Belle attacked Alfred soon after. Belle swung his rifle at Alfred, but it struck a tree and broke apart. Having no other choice, Alfred drew his own weapon and shot Belle in self defense. He stayed in the camp for several days, feasting off the bodies of his companions. Packing strips of meat into his satchel, Alfred left in search of the agency. The human flesh lasted him approximately two weeks and he ran out just prior to arriving at Los Pinos.

[Cassie]

Sorry you're feasting on human flesh the way you said that. Just sorry

[Danielle]

I Did kind of just get right into the cannibalism thing.

[Cassie]

Yeah, you just kind of. It sounds like you could be talking about a ham sandwich or, like, a pizza, but we're talking about people.

[Danielle]

It's called dissociation, and I'm really good at it. This story, as horrifying as it was, Persuaded some, but not Preston nutter and others of the original party. After much debate, A decision was ultimately made that there was one way to prove the legitimacy of this story, and that was to have Alfred lead everyone to the camp to prove that what happened actually did unfold. Because if this scuffle between him and Belle really did happen, There should be a broken rifle in pieces next to this tree that allegedly he, like, swung at. It broke apart, and then he had no choice.

[Cassie]

But there should be evidence of the

[Danielle]

story around, and he would be validated. And everyone could just be like, oh, God, that's awful. But, I mean, you're being made it.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

A group set out with Alfred to his campsite until suddenly, this skilled wilderness guide Couldn't remember where it was and had no sense of where he was going. And he just straight up refused to go any further. This guy who had come from Utah, Led this group from Utah to the San Juans, now suddenly has no idea where he is and can't go back to the camp that he just came from.

[Cassie]

Like, right. We believe you.

[Danielle]

Alfred was immediately placed into custody, Brought back to saguache, and held in jail while an investigation was launched. Several groups were sent out in search of Alfred's campsite. And in an attempt to find any sign of the other men. They think they know what happened to him. I mean, at this point, they're like, everybody is dead for sure. We just don't know what exactly happened, but they're just trying to locate them. But they didn't find anything. The story was leaked to the press, and by July, an article in the rocky mountain news Titled man eaters in colorado Detailed Alfred's story, confession, and, of course, included a couple of different embellishments. Among them, claiming that Alfred stated, quote, the breast of men was the sweetest he ever tasted.

[Cassie]

Did he really say that, or is that just an embellishment?

[Danielle]

Okay, no embellishment.

[Cassie]

It wasn't just to be that writer who was, like, honest, A little typewriter, probably at this time, and was like,

[Danielle]

the breast of men. It's like, oh, you know what's real good? You know what's super sick?

[Cassie]

This, like, ew.

[Danielle]

It wasn't until mid August that the Remains of Alfred's companions were located. The details surrounding this discovery vary, but most historians credit the find to John Randolph, an artist for the Harper's Weekly newspaper. He was out hiking in present day Gunnison National Forest, two miles north of San Cristobal Lake, when he stumbled upon a gruesome sight. He had found the location of the five men at the foot of a steep bluff near the Gunnison River. He quickly alerted miners camped in the area nearby, and word spread like wildfire. The men at the scene would later remember it as utterly gruesome. One witness later described the scene, quote, I seen five men lying there as though they had been killed by some sharp instrument. Look like it might have been a hatchet struck to the head. Four of them were lying close together, covered with a blanket. But where a corner was turned up, the thigh looked as if a piece of meat was cut out. The fifth lay quite a ways away from the others, and the head was gone. Most people who arrived on the scene could barely look at it, repelled by the sight, the smell, and the horror of it all. However, Rudolph, the illustrator for the newspaper, was quick to sketch what lay before him. And I will post the sketches of what he saw. But there is, and we'll get into this a little bit later, but there is a lot of photographs of the victims.

[Cassie]

Like, actual photographs, not just the sketch.

[Danielle]

Yes. And it's so kind of calling back to when I originally told this story. If you recall, we had some technical difficulties that evening. And I have so many photos for this story. Like, especially towards the end when we're gonna get into the debate of, like, forensics and what really happened, what do the bodies have to tell about what unfolded? I had so many accompanying pictures, and, I mean, there's tons of photos of Alfred and all this stuff and the landscape and different things and people, places and things. And I was so excited to show them all. I had my, like, little PowerPoint presentation ready. We get to the venue, we're doing, like, sound check and stuff, and they're like, oh, yeah, our projector's broken.

[Cassie]

Were you gonna. On a giant screen, put the pictures of them up there?

[Danielle]

Yeah, they're skeleton. They're like. They're not of the scene and butchered up and stuff. But, like, after just their skeleton showing different wounds and things like that that point to different evidence of scary things. It was pretty spooky. Maybe it was just enough. Maybe that was God's plan.

[Cassie]

God's plan was, do not show this to an audience right now.

[Danielle]

Yeah, maybe I Would have been sued. Who knows?

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Anyway, we're still here. We're still here. We're still thriving. If you want to see them, they exist online. Anywho, so Preston Nutter shows up to this scene because, you know, he's on this. He's been clocking Alfred from the very beginning. The group he was with at this point were his friends, and he was super suspicious of.

[Cassie]

Get your friend to like this Nutter guy.

[Danielle]

Yeah, he's gonna check out everything.

[Cassie]

Yeah, he's like, not on my watch.

[Danielle]

While he was quick to get there and examine the bodies for himself, despite their state of decomposition and hunks of missing flesh, based on what remained of their features, their clothing, and through deduction of their personal effects, he identified each one of his friends. The coroner was called, and after examination, the bodies were moved from the location dubbed Dead Man's Gulch to a bluff overlooking where they had been found. They were laid side by side and buried in a shallow grave in a location to this day that is still known as Cannibal Plateau. Upon this discovery, the media went nuts, both local and countrywide. Despite a lack of a conviction, let alone a trial, papers like the New York Times printed sensational stories calling Alfred a murderer and a cannibal who was a fiend for flesh, a lunatic that killed his companion for money and lived off of their corpses. By September, most of the country was aware of the Colorado Cannibal, likely terrified of this so called madman, yet completely unaware that he was no longer behind bars because it turns out he was freed from jail before word got back to Saguache that the bodies had been discovered. So the decision was made basically because he had spent months behind bars. There was no concrete evidence that his companions were actually dead or that Alfred had anything to do with it. Plus, it was costing the town money to keep him incarcerated.

[Cassie]

We have no reason to keep you. You can go.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

Surprise, surprise. Right after. Yes. Yeah.

[Danielle]

So they even gave him some provisions for his journey to go back east because his plan was to go back to Pennsylvania.

[Cassie]

And like, I was sorry about that.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Great.

[Cassie]

Yeah, you should be sorry.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Bye.

[Cassie]

See you.

[Danielle]

I'll accept your apology. I will take some food and money to get away from here, but. Yeah, just bad timing. When the news of the discovery of the bodies made its way back into town, Alfred was officially charged with the murder of all five men. And a warrant was put out for his return, dead or alive. The relatives of Israel Swan, George Noon, Frank Miller, Shannon Bell, and James Humphrey pulled together money for a reward and that combined with a previous bounty from El Paso county, where he allegedly was responsible for a triple murder that happened in years earlier, which is a whole

[Cassie]

other story in and, oh, this isn't his first time.

[Danielle]

Yeah.

[Cassie]

Being connected to murder.

[Danielle]

Right. Which I just had to mention it, but we're not even gonna get into it. But anywho, what I'm trying to say is the total reward money amounted to around $5,000, which is about 135 grand today.

[Cassie]

That's a big reward.

[Danielle]

Suddenly, everyone was a bounty hunter. And for weeks, the entire region, from Saguache to Breckenridge and beyond, was scoured for any sign of where Alferd was. A human skull was found by a prospector a mile from Dead Man's Gulch with significant trauma consistent with hatchet blows. It was assumed it belonged to Frank Miller, whose severed head was never recovered. But that find was the only thing relating to Alfred Packer to come for nine years.

[Cassie]

So he's just free for nine years?

[Danielle]

Yep. And ultimately, Alfred was caught by sheer chance. It was March of 1883 and he was living and prospecting in southern Wyoming, going by the name of John Swartz. He was staying in a roadhouse when a peddler passing through approached him. The peddler, Jean Cabazon, a retired prospector, had long since given up the dream of striking it rich after an ill fated trek from Utah to the San Juans. Nine years earlier, Jeanne had heard John speaking from another room in the roadhouse and immediately recognized his voice.

[Cassie]

That high pitched voice? Yep.

[Danielle]

He's like, hold on a minute, I

[Cassie]

know that annoying voice.

[Danielle]

Jean struck up a conversation with John, and if his familiar face and distinguishing voice wasn't enough, one glance at his left hand and the missing fingertips confirmed his suspicions. Jeanne played it cool in the conversation as Alfred clearly didn't recognize who Jeanne was, didn't make the connection, and Jeanne didn't want to tip him off. So he kind of just quietly made his exit. And as soon as he was away from Alfred, he made a report to the authorities. Alfred was apprehended and arrested a week later. General Adams met Alfred on the train transport from Cheyenne to Denver and was brought up to speed with Alfred's last nine years. According to Alfred, again, this is all coming from him. So we, we're not really sure. But according to him, he had traveled throughout Arizona, Wyoming, Montana and Colorado working odd jobs under false names. As the train approached Denver's Union Station, Alfred appeared visibly shaken. He told Adams that he was finally ready to Tell the whole truth, and was willing to take back his first statement as long as Adams promised to protect him from the gathering mob outside of the train, that he was expecting to rip him away as soon as he stepped foot in Denver. And he was right to worry. There had been many cases of lynchings and vigilante justice throughout the west during this time, many of which were aided or ignored by law enforcement. Over a thousand people awaited his arrival at Union Station. But with his promised protection, hands and feet shackled, Alfred was led to jail, where he gave his second confession. And for people who love Denver and live in Denver, I lived 12 minutes from Union Station, and I love it there. And to know that he, like, pulled up and there and was fearing for his life is crazy. It's like, there's really good restaurants there now.

[Cassie]

And we went there, right? Yeah, I think we did. I think we went there and went to like, a bookstore.

[Danielle]

Yes, we did.

[Cassie]

Yeah, you're right.

[Danielle]

Yeah, cool bookstore in there, too. Anywho, so according to. All right, so now we are in version 2 of his version of events. So according to this version of the story, after the men left Chief Yuri's encampment, Alfred and the five men encountered harsh weather conditions and tough terrain. They ran out of food by day 10 and resorted to eating rosebuds and pine gum. The group was starting to unravel, Crying, praying, and mentally and physically deteriorating. At some point, Alfred had went off to gather rosebuds to eat. When he came back to camp, and it was then that he witnessed Shannon Bell sitting near the fire, roasting a piece of meat he had cut from the leg of Frank Miller, whose body was laying in the nearby snow. Miller's skull had been crushed with a hatchet, along with the three other men whose dead bodies were lying close by as well. When Shannon Bell noticed Alfred approaching, he charged in self defense. Alfred shot him with his rifle. And as Belle collapsed, his hatchet fell into the snow. Alfred grabbed it and struck him with it. And now, alone, Alfred covered the bodies of all the men with a blanket and remained in that spot in camp, surviving off of their flesh for almost two months. He claimed to have attempted to find help several times, like kind of going off and trying to seek help and get away. But he was just pushed back by the weather each and every time. But then, nearing 60 days after the incident with Bell, Alfred took all of the money that the men had been carrying, packed strips of meat into his bag, and left one last time, ultimately arriving at Los Pinos and being discovered and so it goes. When asked why his stories differed, Alfred claimed to have been crazed, not himself, and not responsible for what he had previously said. So basically, he said, I. I was in distress. I was confused. I just went through this huge ordeal. I can't be trusted for what I said before. He was transferred to Lake City, Colorado, for trial, not far from where the corpses had been found. And all the while, once again, the media went wild with headlines like, the man who lived on meat cut from his murdered victims. I mean, somebody.

[Cassie]

Quite a headline.

[Danielle]

I would read it.

[Cassie]

I would also read it. It's very clickbaity.

[Danielle]

He was adamant, for the time being, at least, that he was responsible for the death of only one person, and that was Shannon Bell. And he only did it because it was an act of self defense on April 5th.

[Cassie]

Why wouldn't you say that at the beginning? I know, like, he had this whole elaborate story that it was like this ongoing thing, but then everyone's found in the same spot. Yeah.

[Danielle]

And then you run away for nine years and change your name and. Yeah.

[Cassie]

And it feels like at first it would be like, well, maybe the cannibalism thing, he. Like, that's something you don't want to be known for or whatever. But it seems like people don't really care that much about the cannibalism part. They're just wondering why these people were murdered.

[Danielle]

Right. I mean, I think people definitely care, but there's also this whole other thing. I actually cut it out of my. It's so funny because I can't. I honestly can't believe I told this story in a live show. It's way too long for a live show.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Just.

[Danielle]

So if you're coming to our live show, our tour, we are doing things differently. So if you've been to any of our shows before, they were more like podcast tapings where we would do just a live. We would each pick a topic and do a live episode kind of style. It's gonna be a little different this time around, but I'm just saying this was way too long. I actually cut out a whole portion about kind of what you're saying of, like, there was no law against cannibalism, and there still isn't. And there's this whole. I got into, like, the legal precedent for cannibalism and survival situations after the shipwreck and, like, all this stuff, like,

[Cassie]

like, really dove into it.

[Danielle]

I really was being thorough. But, yeah, you're right. It's like, yeah, people were disturbed by it, but they were most concerned with whether he murdered people or not.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Interestingly, on April 5, 1883, Alfred was tried for the murder of Israel Swan, even though he said he claimed he only killed Bell. And the thinking behind this was that it would somehow be an easier victory to achieve if they were to prosecute him for the slaying of an elderly man. It seemed like the prosecution felt it would have been easier to convince the jury and gained sympathy for, like, this older man who was killed on the trail type of thing.

[Cassie]

Gotcha.

[Danielle]

Despite his attorney's motions to dismiss the indictment on various grounds, the trial went forward. The prosecution's theory of motive was that Alfred killed Israel for his money, not out of necessity, because. Oh, another thing was Israel was rumored to have had thousands of dollars on him, like, he was carrying almost all the money he had.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Oh.

[Cassie]

And now he was spending it everywhere. So it's like you murdered him and then stole all his money.

[Danielle]

Yeah. They argued that Alfred was a cold and calculated murderer and liar, not a traumatized victim of horrific circumstances, that he was motivated by greed, not by need. The defense called Alfred to the stand on the third day of the trial to explain to the court himself what had happened. He depicted in detail, day by day, the struggles that the men faced, Arguments they got into amongst each other, and the dire situation they found themselves in after their food rations were depleted, they turned to boiling and eating their own moccasins. He went on to describe in great detail what he outlined in his second confession, saying that although he did wind up living off of human flesh, it at first made him violently sick, and he wished he didn't have to do it. He continued on, describing the entire ordeal up until he arrived at the agency and his days later in Saguache. His testimony and cross examination were full of contradictions, Differed in significant details compared to other witness testimony, and at times, he was quick to anger and his temper flared. However, Alfred was confident he had persuaded the jurors of his innocence. So much so, he remarked that he should marry one of the Lake City women he saw in the crowd of his trial as one of the first things he would do when he was set free.

[Cassie]

Okay, this guy's delusional. Yeah.

[Danielle]

He's has audacity and a lot of balls, for sure. Hey, so in case you haven't noticed, after dark is kind of our vibe. And while that can mean a few different things, among what we love the most is in reference to the night sky and the importance of looking up at the stars. I have been very into space and the night sky, especially recently, and Neil Degrasse Tyson probably has something to do with it. But that's part of the reason I have been so stoked about my new Dwarf Lab Mini. This little device is designed to make astrophotography feel possible, even if you've never used a telescope before. It's the world's smallest smart telescope, weighing just 840 grams. That's less than 2 pounds. With the telescope mount and battery built into one compact setup, you can bring on a road trip, a camping weekend, or just into your backyard for a night sky session through the app. Dwarf Mini can help with one tap shooting, automatic target acquisition and tracking, and intelligent imaging processing. So you don't need a laptop or a huge pile of gear to capture the Moon, the Milky Way, star trails or deep sky objects like nebula and galaxies. It also supports 90 second long exposures, raw image files, and up to four hours of astronomy shooting. It's perfect for those international dark sky parks I'm sure many of you are visiting this summer. Personally, I consider myself a beginner in photography, especially astrophotography and anything to do with the night sky, so I understand that it can feel intimidating. But I promise you, using the Dwarf Mini made it feel so accessible. I started with the most basic of basic setups. I placed my Dwarf Mini on the hood of my Forerunner, and I started by capturing the Moon. It's a practical fit for anyone who already chases dark skies and wants to bring home more than just phone photos. To learn more, visit dwarflab.com promo code npad that'S-W-A-R-F l a b.com promo code npad hey there, it's Ophira Eisenberg from

[Ophira Eisenberg]

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[Danielle]

On Friday, April 13, the jury delivered their verdict. Guilty of premeditated murder. Turns out he never ended up getting that girl. And he was sentenced to hang on May 19th of that year. In regards to his fate, the state was divided. Papers from Pueblo, Denver, Colorado Springs and Breckenridge published various opinion pieces on the trial and the verdict, ranging from basically like he got what he deserved to it was unfair, he never stood a chance type of thing. While waiting for execution, Alfred maintained his innocence, yet seemed to accept his fate. But fate had another thing in mind. After the sentence was handed down, Alfred's lawyer had traveled to Denver to appeal the verdict to the Colorado Supreme Court. And it worked. Alford was granted a stay of execution and after three years, his conviction was nullified. But it wasn't over for Al. The state again went after him In August of 1886, this time charging him with manslaughter in the deaths of all five men. The trial went much the same. Alfred again took this stand, but this time was more visibly agitated, giving a nearly two hour statement, followed by angry outbursts during the cross examination. This time the trial went quickly, only taking three days, and the jury took less than three hours to deliver their unanimous decision. It was their belief that Alfred, with robbery as the motive, intentionally misled his group to a secluded spot where he murdered them in their sleep with a hatchet. All with the exception of Shannon Bell, who was hit, but managed to get up and scramble away, at which point Alfred shot him before finishing the job with a hatchet. Alfred was sentenced to 40 years, which at the time was the longest term ever imposed by an American judge. So people were sick of his. They were like, okay, you keep slipping away. You're like a little slippery eel. We're getting you, we got you. You're going to prison for 40 years. Alfred again accepted his sentence, saying although he didn't believe he received a fair trial, that he couldn't blame the jury for their decision or the prosecution for doing their jobs. He went on to thank his counsel for doing their best and the people of Gunnison and Lake City. He was transferred to the state penitentiary in Canyon City for his incarceration and because of his epilepsy, because remember, he has, he's having epileptic seizures this entire time. He was unable to perform hard labor while he was in prison, so instead he worked in the Gardens. At the time, prisoners were allowed unlimited visitations. And due to his popularity, thanks to the many years of constant media attention that he received, he had Many visitors, some of which wound up being his biggest champions. There was Dwayne Hatch, a young man that Alfred met in Wyoming when he was known as John Swartz, who viewed him as a father figure. There was Frederick Bonfils and Harry Tamman, who owned the Denver Evening Post. And there was Polly Pry, a controversial writer and reporter for the Post, who by chance met Alfred during a visit to Canyon City while she was doing research on an article on the prison system and was writing on the institution. Together, they all went to bat for Alfred for years, repeatedly printing stories of his innocence, petitioning the parole board, hitting the streets of downtown Denver, collecting signatures and support of their plea for a pardon, sending various interviewers to jail to take statements from Alford directly, and commissioning physicians in hopes to get Alfred transferred to the state insane asylum in Pueblo, literally doing anything they could that would get him out of Canyon City. Alfred really had Paulie to thank for most of the efforts. She was his ride or die and relentlessly advocated for him. It was her belief that Alfred was innocent and that he was, quote, unjustly and terribly punished for a frightful misfortune and repeatedly pointed to the extreme survival circumstances he found himself in. An all out back and forth war was raging in the media with publications almost weekly from both sides of the argument. Year after year, pardons were granted for child murderers, rapists, robbers and embezzlers, but nothing for Alfred. That is, until January 7th of 1901, as his last official act as governor, Charles Thomas granted Alfred Packer parole based on advanced age and health issues. After the last 19 years behind bars, Alfred was elated to be free. He settled in Deer Creek Canyon, about 20 miles west of Littleton, and spent the following years dabbling in prospecting, working as a guard for the Denver Post, and building a small homestead, complete with a cabin, vegetable garden and chickens. He spent the remainder of his life in close contact with all of his champions and always showed his immense gratitude towards them all. Times and opinion had changed while he was in prison. Once thought of as the, quote, human hyena, he was now a model citizen. His neighbors viewed him as kind, gentle and quiet. He was also rumored to be a vegetarian, which I would understand.

[Cassie]

You know, we all switch at some point.

[Danielle]

I guess it reminds me of my favorite book, Alive, about the rugby team crash in the Andes. And I read the book and then obviously watched a documentary on the survivors and they were like, yeah, we are all vegetarians now, because they had to.

[Cassie]

Yeah, I mean, in a totally different. A totally different level. I Also, I kind of get it in a totally different way, but when I was sick and I was on dialysis, I used to have to eat meat for every single meal. Because when you're on dialysis, the treatment actually takes protein out of your blood. So they would be like, eat a steak for breakfast, eat a steak for lunch, eat a steak for dinner, have, like, protein shakes. And literally, by the time I was done, because I was doing it for five, six months, by the time I was done, I was like, I never want to see a piece of meat again in my entire life. And I literally have not eaten anything except for fish since then.

[Danielle]

So, yeah, that's tough when it's.

[Cassie]

I. I kind of get it a little bit in a different capacity, but I. I get it.

[Danielle]

Well, when it's required of you and it's being forced, it's when you.

[Cassie]

It's just, like, it grosses you out. Eventually.

[Danielle]

I think we all. Anybody who has eaten meat, I think, has gotten to. They've had moments where they're, like, eating, and they gross themselves out thinking about what. They're actually dead. Yeah.

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Sorry. To anyone think about it, too. Eating right now, which is questionable. This episode of them all just wait, you know?

[Cassie]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Anywho.

[Cassie]

Okay.

[Danielle]

So allegedly, he's a vegetarian now. Children would flock to him as he handed out penny candy, and he would entertain them with stories of all of his previous adventures in the Wild West. Every single one.

[Cassie]

He's like. He's sitting around, there's a bunch of children in front of him. He's like, let me tell you. It's like a story about how I had to eat human flesh. And all the kids are like, well, I died.

[Danielle]

Like, oh, my God. Do you want to hear something really messed up? They're like, yeah. And that is how curiosity is born. I would be so curious for the rest of my life.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Danielle]

Okay.

[Cassie]

That's how parents are. Like, you're not allowed at Alfred's house anymore.

[Danielle]

Well, in 1906, so he was released in 1901. Five years later, he was found unconscious in the grass in his front yard. He was cared for by neighbors for days as he drifted in and out of consciousness and experienced violent, frequent seizures. As many as 15 a day. He survived this ordeal, but never fully recovered. He passed away on April 23, 1907, surrounded by friends, maintaining his innocence until the very end. As he was a veteran, the military paid for his funeral and standard veteran headstone. Alfred was buried in the Littleton Cemetery, where he remains to this day. Alfred and his story were well known throughout the state and the country while he was alive. So it's no surprise that it didn't take long for him to make his way into local legend and lore shortly after his death. For years, aside from the families of the victims, no one really seemed to care much about the five men buried in the San Juans since their burial. Only a small wooden fence marked their location. But that changed in 1926 when a group of women from Lake City decided they deserved better. The Lake City's Ladies Union Aid Society raised funds for a memorial plaque for the five men, and the bronze Pioneer memorial tablet was unveiled at the site during a dedication ceremony in August of 1928. Decades later, in 1989, hoping to use science to settle this long debated question of Alfred's guilt or innocence, forensic anthropologist James Starr led the Alfred G. Packer Victims Exhumation project. He had become absolutely enthralled with the case. He studied it for years, and he ultimately gained access and permission to dig up the memorial site in hopes to find the remains and study them. It was his hope that by doing so, he and his team's findings would finally put the put to rest what truly happened. In the winter of 1873-1874, the project gained nationwide attention, with newspapers publishing eye catching headlines and even earning it a feature on Unsolved Mysteries. The project began in July of that year, and the bodies were quickly located under the memorial marker, less than a foot below the surface of the soil. All five men were found laying side by side in a shallow mass grave. Over the next six days, the archaeological team worked to excavate the site and spent nearly a month analyzing the remains. The bodies showed clear signs of nicks and scrapes consistent with butchering, and the skulls showed clear evidence of blunt force trauma. But this information wasn't news. Like this wasn't anything revelatory because based on Alfred's testimony, everyone knew he had cannibalized the men and, and that they were murdered. Because even though he's claiming he didn't murder them, he's placing the blame on Shannon Bell. But murders did occur, so that blunt force trauma and the evidence of them being butchered is not.

[Cassie]

It's kind of like, yeah, this is what the story, this, this follows what he said.

[Danielle]

The question of who was responsible wasn't answered. And Starr said, quote, we found nothing to corroborate or refute anything. Packer said, we'll never know who did it based on any solid physical evidence. We're never going to know. But wait, there's just a little more.

[Cassie]

Oh.

[Danielle]

In 1994, David Bailey, the curator of the Museum of western Colorado, was reviewing inventory of a collection of old western weapons, including some used by Kit Carson and Butch Cassidy, when he came across a revolver and its small description card. And it read, this gun was found at the site where Alfred Packer killed and ate five of his traveling companions. Imagine I want to work in a museum so bad. I'd be like, what? And it's in the. Just like you're reviewing inventory. It's not even out and about on display. And like no one's paying attention to it.

[Cassie]

You just have it. And it's this crazy artifact of one

[Danielle]

of the biggest unsolved mysteries in the state's history. It had been given to the museum after a historian unearthed it at the site in 1950. For the next five years, Bailey pored over Alfred's case and ultimately came to the conclusion that he actually believed him.

[Cassie]

Really?

[Danielle]

So one of Alfred's confessions, given in an interview to the Denver Post, read in part, quote, belle came after me. I could see that he was mad. I ran back. I had a revolver. He ran after me. When I got to the snow drift, I wheeled around as fast as I could, and he was right on top of me with a hatchet. I shot and killed him because remember, he's saying he attacked and killed everybody else, and then he turned on me and I had to kill him in self defense. So that is what he. He said in that second version of events sense. And initially, the problem with that, other than him changing his story a million times and being on the run for nine years and all the other crap, was that in his previous confession, Alfred stated he had shot Bell with a rifle, not a revolver, which only added to the confusion and suspicion of his stories. And just people didn't trust him. But in 2000, Bailey discovered evidence recovered from the Alfred G. Packer victims exhumation project of 1989, which were donated to the local historical society, including soil samples. Bailey had the samples analyzed, and to their surprise, they found presence of man made lead fragments that matched a sample taken from one of the three bullets still remaining in the Colt revolver. And what's more is there was gunshot residue on a piece of wool clothing assumed to be Shannon Bells. So things are starting to match up a little bit.

[Cassie]

Wait, so Shannon Bell had the revolver?

[Danielle]

No. So Alfred is basically saying he shot Shannon Bell with a revolver, and now there's evidence residue of that bullet in the soil that says, okay, it was discharged. There is gunshot residue on clothing that they couldn't say with 100 certainty because things started to get lost in translation and all that. But there was gunshot residue on one of the men's clothing.

[Cassie]

Did you say his sleeve or did I make that up in my brain?

[Danielle]

You made that up in your brain.

[Cassie]

Okay.

[Danielle]

It was just on his. It was.

[Cassie]

I pictured his sleeve and I was like, so he was holding the revolver.

[Danielle]

No track here?

[Cassie]

No.

[Danielle]

So things are starting to be like, huh. Okay, I'm intrigued. And there's also the question over a pelvic bone puncture hole. So again, this is kind of where during this exhumation project of 1989, this is where the photos that I was going to show came from. They're like, from a project.

[Cassie]

They're not the scene of the crime. Yeah, okay. Okay, that makes more sense. Still horrific.

[Danielle]

Yeah, sorry. A photo of the pelvic bone with said puncture hole was taken by Star's exhumation team. And Bailey believes this is further support for his theory that Alfred was truly telling the truth, that this is the bullet wound that resulted from Alfred shooting Bell in self defense. However, this assumed gunshot trauma was believed by others to be nothing more than damage from carnivore activity consistent with bear scavenging. So some people are like, this isn't a clear gunshot wound. It's hard to tell. And especially it's been decades they've been in the ground. You know, it's hard to tell.

[Cassie]

Yeah, but.

[Danielle]

And I agree because I've looked at the picture, it is hard to tell. I wouldn't immediately look at that and say, oh, that's clearly looks like a gunshot wound. However, the whole like, animal activity bear scavenging thing does not track with me. And that's because there was no other teeth marks noted on any of the remains. There was nicks and scrapes consistent with the knife that was used to. To butcher their flesh for consumption. So there's no teeth marks on any of the remains or there wasn't any noted. And also, the remains weren't disturbed in the way that's consistent with animal scavenging. They were all laid found side by side with one of them, you know, kind of off in the distance a little bit. But it's not like there was pieces of them scattered around because they had been scavenged on by animals. So I don't know if I'm like,

[Cassie]

believing that it, like, doesn't really. Why would there be one mark?

[Danielle]

Why would there be one puncture hole from A bear that like came by, grabbed it and was like, ew, nevermind, and walked away. Like, I just don't believe that. So anyway, if you're interested in seeing some of the things for yourself, like I said, there is Google. But if you're in Colorado or traveling through there anytime soon. Some of the artifacts collected during this exclamation project, such as the skull fragment from Frank Miller and Alfred Packer's compass and sidearms, are displayed at the Museum of Western Colorado in Grand Junction. And I double checked.

[Cassie]

Skull fragment there.

[Danielle]

Yeah, I double checked because I originally wrote this in 2023 and just making sure it wasn't a temporary display. As far as I can tell, it's a permanent exhibit and it's still active.

[Cassie]

So cool.

[Danielle]

Someone go take a picture for me and send it to me. And if you're a sicko like me and are curious about the memorial site itself, because the remains were exhumed, but they were reinterred. They weren't moved away. I'm here to tell you some bad news or good news, depending on how you feel about this type of thing. But the location of the mass grave a few miles north of Lake City on Cannibal Mesa along the banks of Dead Man's Gulch, was previously visitable, marked with signs and even informational boards, like a big kiosk and different things explaining this whole situation. But it has since been permanently closed. It's on private property with locked gates and surveillance cameras. So don't go looking for it. It's a big no, no. And there has been some, like, rumblings about maybe opening it for private tours led by somebody not just free and open to the public, but as of right now, it's off limits. So it was like on Atlas Obscura, and people would go there and, yeah, visit, but no longer. During his sentencing, Alfred addressed the court and spectators and gave a lengthy statement. In part, he said, I had one hope and that was that sometime I would be able to hold up before the people of Colorado that I am not guilty of the murder of the four men I killed. Belle, I admit it and I have done so all along. But he is the only man I killed. The old mystery will be cleared in the course of time. Then you will all see that Packer was innocent. Innocent or not, Colorado, at least for now, seems to love this guy. In 1968, UC Boulder renamed its cafeteria the Alfred Packer Restaurant and Grill with the slogan have a friend for lunch. And at one point even had raw meat eating competitions that's messed up.

[Cassie]

Colorado UC boulders have a friend for loud

[Danielle]

raw.

[Cassie]

It's clever.

[Danielle]

Really clever. Or meat eating content. What the hell?

[Cassie]

That's disgusting also. And sounds a little.

[Danielle]

It's like a health code violation.

[Cassie]

Yeah. You know in college you just chased down with a shot of Zanka and you're good.

[Danielle]

Yep. Man up, you know.

[Cassie]

Yep.

[Danielle]

He has been the inspiration for several songs, albums, cookbooks and plays, most notably Cannibal the Musical, written and directed by Trey Parker and Matt Stone, two UC Boulder grads who went on to create the show South Park.

[Cassie]

Very cool.

[Danielle]

In the 1980s, Lake City, who once ostracized Alfred, began celebrating him, or at least his story. Packer Days, a festival that occurred for years before going on a brief hiatus, celebrates survivalism, backcountry skills and the pioneer spirit with events such as the Run for your life survival 5k, a team race that includes starting a fire, splinting and evacuated an injured member, and building a shelter no matter the weather. There are also events like the Mystery Meat Cook Off, Backcountry survival classes.

[Cassie]

There's always meat mystery me. Let's not make it a mystery when we're celebrating a cannibal.

[Danielle]

There's also scavenger hunts and lectures on Packer given by a local historian. And then there's the annual Alfred Packer Festival in Saguache which has featured the 5K Cannibal Crawl, a Rib cook off and beard and mustache competitions. Because he had like a Alfred Packer had him kind of like a goatee looking thing.

[Cassie]

So wow, they really go all out.

[Danielle]

That's what I'm saying. It's like for someone who's so hated and was maybe a mass murderer, they're

[Cassie]

like let's make festivals after him and mystery meat competitions or eating it just

[Danielle]

goes to show, time really does heal all people forget

[Ad Voice or Sponsor]

Anyhow.

[Danielle]

Okay, the book I referred to earlier concluded with some possibilities to ponder in regards to why Alfred had so many versions of his story with similar threads but differing details. First, that he underwent a self protective forgetting called dissociative amnesia, which is defined as the inability to remember one or more episodes of a traumatic or stressful event. Or maybe that he was in some sort of trance resulting from the combined effects of his epileptic condition, long term effects from multiple lead poisoning events earlier in his life, and the near starvation and delirious conditions he was living in immediately prior to being found and having to tell his story. Perhaps he lied for so long he wound up actually believing his own made up version of events or, of course, there is always the possibility that Alfred Packer was just full of. And that's the story of the Colorado cannibal, Alfred Packer. What do you think happened?

[Cassie]

God, that's hard, because I do think he's full of shit in a lot of ways. But I also think that maybe he's. Maybe he's kind of a bad guy that was out with a rough crowd and he took advantage of that. Like, I think it's certainly possible that he was with another guy that was bad and killed those people. But I still. We never heard, like, a motivation of why Belle would have wanted to kill the other guys. So I don't really get that or why he would do that, but say he did. I feel like Alfred Packer was not a great person. And I don't think that it would be unlikely that instead of reporting that this horrible thing happened, that he just stole all their money and fled. I feel like he could have been a. A bad person with other bad people in a bad scenario kind of happened, and he just took advantage of it for. To make it benefit him. I also think there's a world where he definitely could have been the person who killed all of them. Yeah. I just don't see the motivation of why Belle. And maybe there is one and we just don't know it, but I don't. And maybe Belle was trying to steal their money. I don't know. It's just like there's no motivation behind it.

[Danielle]

So I think the motivation would have been just for out of. I think he. If we're going down this route, it appears to me, based on, you know, the situation and everything I read, it feels like maybe he just kind of snapped. I mean, they were getting delirious. They were on their. On the brink of starvation. They were lost. They were in brutal weather conditions. And he was like, I need to eat. I'm. And he lost it, and he just killed everyone, started eating them, and then turned on Alfred as well. And so. I don't know. I have no idea. I think the forensics aspect of it is insanely intriguing because it does tell a different story. I mean, obviously, Alfred is a bit of an unreliable narrator. We don't know. We can't really take his word for it. But I think there is truth to what he was saying, especially if the forensics are lining up with it. And, yeah, I don't think it's was completely out of this world that he eventually did tell the truth. It just took him a long ways, a long time. To get there. And.

[Cassie]

And no one believed him.

[Danielle]

By the time he died, he didn't act accordingly. I mean, to come back even after that did happen, you just witnessed someone murder four people, eat them, and then turn on you, and you had to kill them. And then you just, like, got to town and you're like, well, I took their money, I'm spending it, and I'm out of here.

[Cassie]

Yeah, it's just like, you're not going to inform their families or where to find these people. You know, I think. And that's where I was coming from, where I could see a world where he's just kind of a bad guy anyway, and he just used a bad situation to his advantage and was like, well, I'm making out with a ton of money. I'm not gonna say where they are because I just robbed them. This. A thousand dollars that this one guy is carrying would probably go to his family. He's like, I'm not gonna say that. So I'm gonna get out of here and party with the stuff that I made out with. Yeah. So I could see a world where both scenarios, he could or could not have done it. But I do think that there was at least some partial truths in his story. Well, thank you so much for telling this story again. At the beginning, when I said that I only remembered that he was a cannibal is pretty true. I feel like throughout this entire story, I'm like, what happened? Tell me next. You know, like, I just. It's been years, and I. It's a fever dream. That Colorado show. It was one of the first ones we ever did. So it's cool to hear the story again, and I will remember more details this time because it is truly very interesting.

[Danielle]

Yeah. Well, we would love to hear from you guys what you think of the story. What do you think he is a mass murderer or just kind of like a victim of circumstance? And he was just, like Cassie said, a bad guy. I think I'm in your line of thinking that it was a bad situation went down and he didn't handle it appropriately because he didn't have the best of intentions anyway. So, yeah, that's just kind of my feeling. But hope you guys all enjoyed that. And if you are wanting to hear, like, for Colorado people, that's so exciting, because especially, you know, there's so many places involved in the story that are so close to where a lot of people recreate and live in Colorado. So it's exciting when it comes from your neck of the woods. So if you want to hear stories from your neck of the woods in those seven cities that we talked about earlier, please come to our shows. Please grab tickets. They go on sale in a couple days. Mark your calendar, set a reminder, tell a friend and we hope to see you there.

[Cassie]

Yeah, in the meantime, enjoy the view,

[Danielle]

but watch your back.

[Cassie]

Bye guys.

[Danielle]

Bye.

[Cassie]

Thanks for joining us for another episode. We hope you learned something new and have another location to put on your list. If you want more NPAD content, make sure to follow along with our adventures on all socials at National Park After Dark.

[Danielle]

For more stories just like this one, with the added bonus of exclusive content, you can join us on Patreon or Apple Subscriptions. If you prefer to watch our episodes, head over to our YouTube channel. And if you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe on your favorite listening platform.

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