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- [00:04]
A
You are listening to the Navigating Adult ADHD podcast with your ADHD coach and expert, Xena. Hello, my friend. Today we are joined by fellow late diagnosed adhder Jamie as we explore ADHD and imposter syndrome. So you know that feeling when you doubt your accomplishments and you fear like being exposed and you're going to be found out as being a fraud, Something I can definitely relate to. Even when you've got evidence of success, you just feel like you're going to get caught. They're going to figure it out. That feeling, that imposter syndrome, that's what we're talking about in today's episode. Now, you might remember Jamie from a previous episode we did where we talked about ADHD at work together. And this was a hugely popular episode where Jamie shared about the legal rights for people with adhd, the types of accommodations and support that you can be asking for in the workplace. And it was incredible. I believe it was number 136. I'm going to link to it below if you want to go check that out. So I invited Jamie back to talk about imposter syndrome as not only like many of us, does she have plenty of lived experience in this area. She also has spent time studying and completing a thesis in or around imposter syndrome. So in this episode what you're going to hear is us talking about the links between imposter syndrome and adhd, how workplaces, the organisations that we work in, can actually foster and fuel imposter syndrome and why it's not all simply in your head. And also we're going to talk about the research and what it shows, where it comes to. Oh, I've lost my words completely. The research and what it shows when it comes to how we can navigate this do to help oursel if we are struggling with imposter syndrome because of course, we love tools. We like to know what can we do if this is something that we are navigating. So, my friends, you are in for a treat. Enjoy this episode with Jamie Rose Peacock. Hello, my friends. Welcome back. Today we are navigating adult ADHD with a guest. Welcome back. Jamie Rose Peacock, we're so happy to have you back with us again.
- [02:30]
B
Hello. Hello. Good morning, Zena. Happy to be back.
- [02:34]
A
Thank you. And for anybody who it's so funny because I'm thinking, you know, we've all got adhd. So even if you've listened to the episode where Jamie talked about ADHD in the workplace, which is number 136, highly recommend a lot of you have said some amazing things about that, but even if you have listened, you've probably forgotten. Okay, so I did say to Jamie, let's do a reintroduction. Can you please tell us, just tell our listeners a little bit about you, your ADHD journey, the work you do, any of that.
- [03:03]
B
Where do I start? I've said to you before, Zeta, I'm having a little bit of a brain fog, low energy day, so I'll do my best to bring my full self, but you're probably not gonna get all of my therapy because there are parts I literally cannot remember this morning. I'm sure you have days like that where you wake up and you go, I actually can't remember much today. I was formally diagnosed several years ago. I was 44 now. 44. I'm 47 now. I think I was about 44. And I'd actually started looking at getting a diagnosis for my daughter, who was 9, 10 at the time. And I felt like she fit the framework. I won't say the box, but framework for potential adhd. And the more I looked at it, I was like, ah, this is ringing very true. Which I know that many of your listeners will feel like that as well. And then I think I talked about in the last podcast as well about my mu. And when, you know, my mom has passed now, but she had a very, very chaotic life in terms of her mental health. And looking at this framework, I was like, this is completely. How is this not picked up on? She'd been diagnosed with anxiety, depression, bipolar type 2. We know there are some misdiagnoses. So the more I'm looking at this, I'm going, so this is my mother, this is my daughter. What about me? So I went down the long road of getting diagnosed, which took much longer than necessary because the paper sat on my computer for probably about a year before getting it done. Very ADHD. And then it was about an 18 month journey. And I had this wonderful psychologist who said, jamie, pretty sure you have adhd. Do these things that you're explaining ring normal to you? No, they don't. So got the diagnosis. But this was after years of me really struggling with many aspects of my mental and physical health and suffering. What I now see now many cyclic episodes of burnout. But I struggled in the workforce. I struggled with stability. When I was at work, I was on fire. I was really great at the work that I did, but I had trouble with stability, consistency, absenteeism, because I had major sleep issues, which I now know is also very common with adhd. Is which I always felt very alone with my sleep issues. I'm also getting very bored of jobs, you know, I'd go through. I was a car saleswoman for about two weeks and, you know, you know, another. An account manager for another company for two weeks. And I just flit in and out of roles. And so the last 10 years in my own business has actually been the most stable that I've been in the role, ironically. And since getting that diagnosis, I've understood a lot more of myself and I'm a lot kinder to myself as well.
- [05:54]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. As you said, we can all relate so much to your story. So tell us just a little bit about the work that you do, because I know we recorded a whole podcast on ADHD in the workplace. But just for anyone new to you in the work that you're doing, what is it that you do? Tell us about the two different businesses.
- [06:12]
B
So I'm two businesses. I have Marble's People and Culture Hub, which is an HR and employment relations consultancy for small to medium businesses. So I work with employers directly to help them with their HR and their team. So, you know, they may have things like recruitment or training and developing needs, and I work with them to develop frameworks and policies, or they may have disciplinaries, investigation, grievances. So I help with the full end of HR and the employment relations of the employment relationship, from the nice, fluffy end being recruitment through to the pointy end when grievances and disputes do arise. And they do, you know, human nature, humans have conflict. And then. Jamie Rose, Employment Law Specialist I provide advocacy and representation services for employees and individuals who may be in that space where they are struggling with disputes or conflict or grievances, or they may be subject to disciplinaries and investigations. So my skill set in my businesses are very complimentary. And at least the fact that I can sit in the middle and I can look at both parties and see that both parties have interests, but it keeps them very objective. You know, the employer's not the devil and the employee's not the devil. You know, they both have the human interests that they're bringing to the table. And I try and help work with both parties because I think, you know, often it's like depending on what side you're on, you often hear employees, all employers are bad. Well, we know that's categorically not true. We're all humans working within a framework that can be challenging. So, yeah, that's my skill set and I love it. I love the work That I do.
- [07:59]
A
And I think you're amazing at it. I remember in the episode that you did. And also I had the privilege of introducing you for the ADHD conference in Christchurch and hearing you speak again on ADHD in the workplace, especially through the ADHD lens and what you, you know, we're entitled to, the accommodations, we can ask for these sorts of things, how to, you know, navigate difficult conversations, et cetera in the workplace. It was so helpful. And you have a beautiful way of making things really easy to understand, very simple, which I love. So I just wanted to mention that. But we are not here to talk about that. We're here to talk about imposter syndrome. And I'm fascinated. Like, I love this topic. It's something I can very much relate to. I have struggled with this all throughout my life. But you did your thing thesis on exploring the organizational factors. I have to read this out, by the way. Exploring the organizational factors that influence impostor phenomenon among high achieving professional women. First of all, that's a mouthful. So what led you to that?
- [09:02]
B
Titles just have to be so like wordy. We'd like to know, you know, it's like four or more words to make it more credible. What led me to it? I guess I have a story behind that, you know, what's my personal hook with that? I was in the state of employment for nearly three decades. I started working when I was 14 in an ice cream shop. I think that would be a topic for another day because then you put an ADHD woman in an ice cream shop with dopamine.
- [09:33]
A
So that's the common dopamine seeking behaviours. Yeah, I don't think I could do that job.
- [09:38]
B
I've been in paid employment for over three decades now. Actually asked me to work when I was 14 and like I said, I'm 47 now, so we're talking, you know, 33 years. For most of that time I've carried a persistent fear that I was a fraud, that I did not deserve success and that at any moment I would be discovered as a fraud. So bearing in mind this is, despite holding two undergraduate degrees, now completing a master's, running two businesses, sitting on multiple executive boards, being mother, being a wife, being a friend, you know, so all those intersectional things, I still believe that I did not deserve success and that I, you know, I didn't believe that I deserved success, I didn't believe that I was worthy. I believed I was a fraud and you know, and that I would be discovered at any given moment. So you've got this perpetual feeling fear of I'm going to be found out, I'm going to be found out. So I only discovered some years ago that what I was experiencing had a name and a body of research behind it. An imposter phenomenon often called imposter syndrome, which we can get to that later and why they're different. But when I started talking to other women in my professional and social circles, the response was really striking with so many people saying to me, I feel that way too, Scott. And we're talking high achieving women, often with them very high in their legal circles or clinicians. What I'd like to say as well, this is not mutually exclusive to women. There are many men that have this as well. But for different bodies of research, often men don't talk about it. Women either talk about it more or can identify with it more, you know. And so when I started talking to these women I was like, oh my goodness, there's some research here to be done. So I've been really fascinated about this for years. I've been going on for years. I'm going to do this as my master's and I did fill it as my master's. Most existing research is focused on the internal psychology of impostorism. So perfectionism, self doubt, fear of failure. But very little research examined whether organizations were contributing to this feeling in women and what was happening in organizations for women to feel like this. It's interestingly since Black that I identified and so my research shifted the lens from the individual state of. It's in my head that the organization and the central question was, like you said, what are the organizational factors that influence imposter phenomenon in higher check, professional woman, because I think it's for women, it's pathologized. Well, it's all in your head. It's all in your head. You can. But when you dig into the body of research, it's not all in your head. Naturally. There's also a huge body of research that it can be intersectional. And what I mean by that is so for women of color, woman of disability, woman of, you know, social disadvantage, economic disadvantage, it's even a more profound feeling as well. And it's not just in our head. There are factors external making this.
- [13:17]
A
So I'm curious, like what are some of those factors that we might see in an organization that enhance that for us?
- [13:27]
B
I think when there is an organisation there are so many things that can contribute to it. There are the microaggressions that we might experience. It might be people within the workforce. I don't want to gender stereotype because I'm here trying to break the gender stereotypes. But there might be women in leadership roles going into a boardroom and their voice is not heard because they shut down by more powerful male voices. It might be the absence of women in leadership roles. And so because of that absence, we don't have anybody who lack of representation. We don't see ourselves, you know, we don't see other people there. There's also something called the authority gap. So women's expertise and competence is systematically undervalued compared to men's. Women are more likely to be interrupted, talked over, or have their idols dismissed and then recycled by their male colleagues. And this erodes confidence over time. Another thing is that Prove it again going in. Prove it again. So women must repeatedly justify their presence and competence in ways that men are not asked to. So promotions require women to demonstrate more, not just being capable. There was also, there was a study that found that personality based criticism so unrelated to job performance appeared in 71 of 94 annual reviews received by women. So basically in an annual review there may be. Oh, you just, you're just too, you're not agree, you're not assertive enough. You're just too kind. Right? They appeared in more job performance reviews of women's roles than men's.
- [15:19]
A
Also, I can imagine we'd get the opposite of that. You're too bossy. The sort of things that we don't say to men thing that came up
- [15:26]
B
again, you're too aggressive. How else does it show up? Often women get vague feedback so they consistently receive less specific skills based feedback. For men being told to watch your phone or be more assertive, don't be too assertive without guidance on how, which does not support growth. It reinforces self doubt. There's also something called the likability competence double bind. Once again, very wordy. But women who are assertive, perceived as aggressive or unlikable, women who are collaborative or nurturing are perceived as lacking leadership credibility. There is no correct way to present. And navigating that contradiction is exhausting. This is what I've written down. So you're in a double bind. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Well, you know, what am I meant to be? Okay, well, I'll just give up and roll over and not even be here. And there's also, I've written down meritocracy as a false narrative. I like that word, meritocracy. So several women. Yeah, I will break that down. Several women in my research reported that their organizations presented themselves as meritocratic. So you should get your role on merit alone. Well, that's bull. Essentially they're not meritocratic. They're often cronyistic, nepotistic. So they're not getting roles on merit. What they've done. People are getting roles on being shoulder tapped or going to the golf course, you know, going to the bar with the.
- [16:45]
A
Yeah, the socializing with the. Rubbing shoulders with the right people, which
- [16:48]
B
often women can't do because they also have familials that during roles. Okay, so this meritocracy, they consistently saw less qualified men promoted over more qualified women. And when the stated values do not match the lived experience, women internalize that gap as a personal failure.
- [17:12]
A
Oh, this is so fascinating to me. So one of the massive takeaways that I've already had is it's not just in your head. Because I thought that imposter syndrome was very much just, you know. And I've had this experience where I've. I remember getting promoted into my role as team leader of a travel consultancy. They don't call them travel agents now. It's travel consultancies. And I'm going to run with that because it sounds fancy. So anyway, I got promoted into this role. Yeah. And my very. It was my second day. My first day. That's a whole story in itself, right? Somebody was literally arrested and deported that day. That's a great story. But another day, my second day was going to this management meeting and I'm in the room with all of the store managers from all throughout the country of these other branches. And this is my second day in the role. And I just remember sitting at the table, looking around all of the faces going, fuck, who am I to be here? Oh, God, they're gonna call me out. Like somebody's gonna find out. Oh, God. Like, I know exactly what you're experiencing. But I think for anyone who doesn't like necessarily know what it is, because I think you've alluded to this earlier, we don't necessarily know the words for this, or we didn't know that this was a thing. How would you define imposter syndrome? Or what is it? Not necessarily a definition.
- [18:33]
B
But what I want to take on is that you for psychic, you looked on my key finding, not worked on it. You found my key findings. So you're talking about internalized versus externalized stuff. My key findings was that impulse phenomenon is not simply an internal psychological state. It is significantly shaped by the environments women work in. Workplaces that contain bias, exclusion and structural inequalities actively fuel impostor imposter syndrome. Definitely see that time. We'll get more words out today. Probably enough to be here.
- [19:11]
A
Trust me. You are right at home, my friend. You are right at home.
- [19:16]
B
My husband cracks me up because he's my biggest cheerleader, but when knows writing my masters and he said imposter phenomenon. Are you good enough to write it?
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A
Cheeky shit.
- [19:34]
B
And then I was like oh, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna make that a little subtitle. Are you good enough to be here?
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A
But yeah.
- [19:41]
B
So in terms of. So that was one of my key findings. It is not an entirely internal state. In fact it's probably mostly externalized. But we're told to fix ourselves. And that was another big thing that came out of my research. We are told to fix ourselves. No, we don't need to fix ourselves. I definitely think there's personal and subjective things we can do to work on ourselves and self reflect and tools that we can apply that we can talk about as well. But there are also things that organizations can be doing and external, the external places that we resurrect. And it's not an internal state where we have to impose ourselves. So how do we different Renin. Okay, imposter synonym is a psychological experience characterized by persistent self doubt and the fear of being exposed as a fraud despite clear and consistent evidence of your competence and success. Now this research, the foundational research. So this was by Clance and IMES in 1978. They were two women that studied. They studied women students in university in America. And on itself, the research now is going to be problematic because they would have been predominantly white students they were researching. The foundational body of research was varsity students, some of them undergrad, some of them post graduate, all excelling in their fields, still didn't feel good enough to be there. And people who experience this phenomenon tend to attribute your achievements to life. Well, it was just, you know, I was lucky to get it or timing right place, right time or other external factors rather than their own ability. And the disconnect between how others see them and how they see themselves is central to that experience. So many people within our circles, Zeina, you're incredible what you're doing. You're incredible. You have built your business, you've built your brand, you're out there, you know, MCing events, keynote speaker. You're phenomenal at what you're doing. We all know that. Little Xena inside her head, it's going, oh, well, that was just right. Right place, the right time, you know, got shoulder tapped. Oh, you know, somebody in the. In the bus stop who thought they could use my skills.
- [22:10]
A
Yeah.
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B
I mean, there is an element of it, but to continually progress in life, you still need to have a skill set. Right. You can't attribute everything to luck and timing.
- [22:23]
A
Is there a difference then between. Because we talk about and I'm familiar with the term imposter syndrome, but imposter phenomenon is what you've referenced here and also something I'm hearing more and more. Can you just talk about the change in language there, or is there a difference?
- [22:38]
B
So Colleen Clance, who was one of the researchers that I told you about, first documented this phenomenon in the late 1970s. Like I said, 1978, year I was born. Great year. Best vintage, really good people come from 1978. She specifically used the word phenomenon for a key reason, a syndrome. So when you hear impostor syndrome, a syndrome refers to a formally recognized clinical diagnosis. ADHD is a clinical diagnosis. Autism is a clinical diagnosis. In foster phenomenon. It's not listed in the DSM 5 or the ICD 10, which is a publication you don't hear that much about. It has no formal diagnostic criteria and no standardized treatment protocol. So calling it a syndrome implies it is a disorder residing in the individual. Calling it a phenomenon is a more accurate framing and shifts the framing. And it is a documented psychological experience, not a pathology. So this distinction matters because it challenges the idea that something is clinically wrong with the person experiencing. There's some. Some of the prevalence scales range really widely. So in the research, they've. I guess they. They believe there's about 9 to 82% of the population, depending on the study and measurement pool, which we know those in itself can be flawed. Of people experiencing imposter phenomenon. And the variation reflects the lack of standardized assessment rather than genuine uncertainty about whether exit that exists. So we know it does exist, but nobody's actually got the right testing for it. There's so many subjective testing, which I think we could say that about many things out there. Even ADHD in itself can be quite variable as well.
- [24:34]
A
So I'm hearing you say that syndrome sort of syndrome would suggest that it's a diagnostic thing, imposter syndrome, whereas we've established it's not something that we can diagnose.
- [24:47]
B
Yeah, it's not something that you can treat through clinical means. It's not a disorder, it's an experience. It's a human condition, you know, with most. Most people actually experiencing it. There was also a Meta analysis of 108 studies that found that whilst men do experience imposter phenomenon, women consistently score higher on those measures that we talked about, albeit subjective and variable across regions and industries. And like, I think there are reasons why women score higher is because in. Don't talk about it. They've told them up. They're told to just suck it up. You know, you can't talk about those sort of things. So that in itself is very much.
- [25:30]
A
Yeah. Brushed under the carpet sort of thing. Yeah. It's so interesting, though, because I work with both men and women. I would say at the moment it's about a 60, 40 split. Majority women. But all of the male clients that I've had the honour of working with and still work with have at some point suggested to me or outright said to me that they struggle with imposter syndrome or that is something they have or continue to experience. Now, I work with people specifically who have ADHD and. Or other forms of neurodivergence, so I find it really interesting through the ADHD lens. And I don't think that there would be any studies on this as yet or not. Not that I'm aware of. If it might be more prevalent in people with adhd, both men and women, but especially women, because all of my female clients talk about this regularly.
- [26:26]
B
It's not something I touched on in my research, but I, you know, since filming this time slot with you, I have done on it and done more work on it, and I think that maybe it's a space that I could do even more work on it. Is that a PhD calling?
- [26:40]
A
There we go. Plant that feed 10 degrees.
- [26:44]
B
Thank you very much. My husband's like, you know, you don't have to do formal study to do research, Jamie. You can just do it for fun, like the pretty shiny letters after my name.
- [26:56]
A
But if we. I love it also, if, like, you do a PhD, you then become a doctor. Right. I always wonder about this for upgrades on a plane. Like, see how my brain is taking a total ADHD tangent there? Yeah.
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B
Upgrades like into first class or business class. It would be very elitist.
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A
And I'm just saying I'd love me an upgrade. Don't worry, I'm not going out to get me no PhD in fancy leaders anytime soon. No, don't have the patience for that.
- [27:22]
B
But are we talking about what are the key connections between ADHD and.
- [27:26]
A
Yeah, I'd like to come back to that. You Know, I see a lot of connections in the work that I do with people, but I'm keen to hear. What do you see between, you know, people with ADHD who experience imposter syndrome? So what's. What are some of the things that we see, do you think? And do you think that we're more prone to experiencing this? Because I believe that we are, yes.
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B
But I. Yes, because I think our whole life we're told in many aspects that we're not right.
- [27:57]
A
You know, we're not doing things the right way or the way everyone else is.
- [28:01]
B
Yeah, you're not going to nuff at math. Your brain just doesn't do Willem, so, you know, fly. Insert subject here. You're just not good enough at time management. You're not good enough at, you know, sitting still. So, yes, I definitely do think there are correlates and connectors. But what I might talk about first, if it's all right with you, is what ADHD looks and sounds like in the kind of the formal phenomenon we're looking at generally. What will. What will people look like? And then maybe what the connectors are for people who are neurodivergent and.
- [28:34]
A
Yeah, go for it. Yeah.
- [28:36]
B
So we've talked about the fact that the internal experience is a persistent inner voice that says your success was like a mistake, a matter of being in the right place at the right time. A fear of being found out or exposed is less capable than what people believe. Discomfort, receiving praise or recognition, often deflecting or minimizing it. Oh, no, that was nothing. That was Xena that did all the work. Or attributing failures to your own inadequacy and successes to external factors. So something goes wrong, you go, God, I'm so dumb. I'm so dumb. Or you do something well, and you go, oh, no, that was the teamwork that we all put in, you know, or it's just luck.
- [29:17]
A
It was just a one off. Yeah.
- [29:19]
B
The behavioral patterns, Often people will overwork to compensate. Now you're seeing a link here between.
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A
Oh, yeah, overworking, masking.
- [29:29]
B
Talked about in our last podcast, but overworking. So behavioral patterns, people will often overwork to compensate, staying later, taking on more, preparing excessively to avoid any possibility of being caught out. And often I think women do that as well because they get fearful of the times that they need to leave to pick up their children or to do their caregiving. So then they overwork because they feel like they're being this, you know, the spotlight is being shown down on them because they're not working hard enough. Also not putting your hand up for opportunities, promotions or projects because you do not feel ready enough. There's been studies done on this woman will look at a job advertisement go, oh, no, I don't fit the criteria for that. I'm not going to bother men will. She'll be right. Put in my application for that. Give it a go.
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A
You know,
- [30:18]
B
staying silent in meetings even when you have something valuable to add. I don't know if that's a problem for me. I tend to overbooks.
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A
I definitely see that in some of the clients I have who are in boardrooms too. Yeah. Especially in the boardroom where they're the only woman in the room.
- [30:37]
B
And yeah, I do actually think I've been caught out in that sort of situation where I have been surrounded by a board table full of men and more senior men and have felt criticized. So I have stayed quiet. I once had somebody on a board table trying to be very careful here who offered to have. I did some work pro bono for some employment law stuff and they proceeded to criticise my work, even though they were not an employment law specialist, proceeded to criticise my work and questioned the credibility of it and offer to have the work peer reviewed by a lawyer that they knew. And when I asked if that lawyer was an employment lawyer, they said no. And I said, well, I'm an employment law specialist and I know what I'm talking about. So we spoke to the start of our podcast. Those microaggressions.
- [31:39]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And the criticism they often compound. Right. Like they sort of add up. Those are the things we think about the next time we're in the room. Yeah, yeah.
- [31:48]
B
And so then that propagates you into being quiet. So after that, I didn't stay very long on that board because I just felt so undervalued, you know, and I don't need to walk into a room and doubt myself. I'm, you know, I'm. Life's too short to have self doubt. The other thing as well is avoiding risk or innovation because failure would confirm your worst fears about yourself. I won't do.
- [32:11]
A
Happy that one a lot in the people I work with. Yeah. Wanting to avoid risk or any opportunity where you could fail or make a
- [32:19]
B
mistake, which is actually such a valuable learning experience. Failure is valuable. Then that feeds into the rsd. Right. You know, and I suffer a lot of RSD in my work, but I've learned to ground myself. So for people who may not be that fa, which most people know this now about RSD Rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. We tend to avoid situations of conflict or if we have a situation of conflict and the world feel like it's falling apart and we can experience this physiological response where we just. Our whole world implodes. It's awful, isn't it, Zena?
- [32:56]
A
Oh, yeah, it is one of the worst. Have you done multiple podcasts? I think it's one of the worst feelings in the world. It just feels like, yeah, nothing else matters. You're just completely hijacked by it and your whole body's. Yeah.
- [33:10]
B
And if I was to go to an evolutionary psychology lens, I'd say that, you know, it's probably we would go into that fight or flight. We had a situation of conflict, we had to freeze and like, really feel it to know what to do. But now, you know, I've had to teach myself that an email that somebody sends where they've got a shitty tone about them or they're being critical, that doesn't need to create, that doesn't need to fill me with such a physiological response. It still goes, but I've learned to now ground myself. Look at, you know, what is it? Listen to something, look at something vibrant, you know, and so, yeah, if we
- [33:48]
A
just pause with that example for a moment, I think if we go back to that evolutionary perspective, I think it would be very much like, you know, you're living in a tribe which is required for survival, right? Everybody takes turns and helps out, etc. And imagine you are kicked out of that tribe and forced to leave, like, and everyone's staring at you and pointing at you and throwing rocks and laughing and all of that, like, it's to me, it's that kind of a feeling, that kind of an experience when I have the RSD is that kind of a reaction. And like you say, being able to sort of see that it's happening and help to, to ground yourself and remember to breathe because that, you know, I stopped breathing
- [34:25]
B
a crier. I really feel myself well enough point in time thinking about RSD and the effect it has on me. So I guess it's a vulnerable moment there. I'm a lot better at dealing with it. But my mother, now that I know what she was experiencing, she suffered gripping RSD. I'm talking about if her 4 year old nephew didn't want to talk to her on the phone, it would just load her day. She'd call me crying and I was like, I'd be like, hijacked by it. Aye, completely hijacked. And so you take that To a. You know, I just. Yeah, she had that every day. And so, yeah, it creates quite a feeling in me where I get quite emotional about it because it is just something I can really relate to. And then in my work, OSD has been a really big thing as well, which I also talked about here in that last episode. And the fact that I'm an. I'm a very emotional person and so if I receive feedback, I'll cry. That is my way of processing it. And then, like, getting it out. Get out your neck. I love a regulator, you know, and I can do that in my business because I'm my own boss and. But nobody's going to criticize me for it. But you can't do that when you're the manager of a. Of, you know, a medical practice. People look at you like, what's wrong with this woman? You know, I can throw. I can throw my toys out of my cot at home and yell, and the cats are just going to look at me weird. You can't do that in a work place, you know. But generally I only need sort of an hour and then I can get over it now. But it's a big thing in terms of sewing. We digress. But it all is important.
- [36:03]
A
It's all relative. Yeah.
- [36:05]
B
What does imposter phenomenon sound like? So it could be things like, I only got this because I needed someone for the quota. It's only a matter of time before they realize I'm not as good as they think. Everyone else seems to know exactly what they're doing. Like that table you were talking about. Why don't I. Most of them feel the same as I've seen. I just got lucky. This wasn't about my skills. A really important nuance as well, and interesting point is that imposter phenomenon does not disappear when you accumulate more achievements. Research suggests there is no threshold of success at which imposter phenomenon resolves itself in its Cox 2018. When women in my research data set were at the top of their fields, they still experienced it acutely. It does not go away.
- [36:54]
A
I can attest to that. I have worked with somebody, an incredible human, one of the smartest humans I have met, who is doing incredible stuff in the world. I don't want to give away who this is. This person has 7 degrees, 7 in their area of expertise, and they're a walking encyclopedia. Everybody comes to them and they. They do not think that they know their stuff. They doubt themselves hugely and it just blows me away. Like you say, no amount of education, no amount of degrees. No amount of whatever is going to. Yeah. Ultimately change that. Unless. What was that?
- [37:37]
B
Really, really sad.
- [37:39]
A
Yeah.
- [37:40]
B
Plus for these people to be able to look at the lens that we see them through, you know, and if we can do that with ourselves, look at the lens that our best friends and our families see us through and they all think we're phenomenal. Why do we not think we're that way, you know.
- [37:59]
A
Yeah. It's just sad already though, as you're saying these things, I see so many overlap with the ADHD because of the, you know, like we do have a tendency to overwork to make up for the times when we are, you know, maybe struggling with focus or, you know, distracted, what have you. We prepare excessively. That's one that I personally can relate to from the past, but also I see that a lot now is. Yeah. The over preparing, having to account for any possible thing that somebody might ask for or need or require of you to the point where you stay up all hours and you don't need most of it. The sensitivity to the criticism, to the feedback, the rsd, all of that, it makes a lot of sense to me that yeah, this is something that we are more likely to experience.
- [38:49]
B
So. And preparation, if you're anything like me, it's a bit of a preparation that at the last minute.
- [38:55]
A
Yes. Oh, for sure. And then you're really stressed out about
- [38:57]
B
it all over, like you said, you know, and. Yeah. And that criticism. And there was something else you just said that you touched on and now it's gone. It's flitted out of my head in terms of. Yeah, sorry, that one is completely gone. That's right. Hold your having a moment. I think there are so many overlaps and like I said before, we have had to fill a lifetime of trying to fit in when we didn't. And so it's going to feel natural that in our professional space and our accolades, we still don't feel like we fit in. Right. I guess adhd. I've written a question or I've written a statement why ADHD increases vulnerability to imposter phenomena. So ADHD is characterized by. Inconsistent performance is one of the key things in your workplace. Some tasks completed brilliantly, others fall apart. And this variability makes it extremely difficult for someone to develop a stable, reliable self concept about the skills and abilities.
- [40:08]
A
Yes.
- [40:08]
B
So the internal narrative shifts between I am capable and I am failing repeatedly. So we're on a scale here. The swing is swinging, which is exactly the environment in which imposter phenomenon takes root so some days, oh, I'm on fire, I'm on fire, today I'm doing it. And then other days, like, I'm rubbish, absolute rubbish. And so when you have those that seesaw of perspective of yourself, it's very hard for that to become a stable state. You just can't do it. And on the days where if you're anything like me, there are days where there are weeks where I have my burnout and I just have to sit on the couch for three days in a row and watch TV and just boom, scroll. And then when you're on fire later on with work, how can you have a stable view of yourself when you're on the couch crippled three days ago?
- [41:02]
A
Which actually brings us beautifully to one of the things I wanted to ask you is how can you navigate that? What are some of the strategies that you personally use or you might have seen come out of the research possibly that can help if you are experiencing imposter phenomenon.
- [41:24]
B
Thanks. One of the things for me is, and I know it sounds corny affirmations and actually just repeating to myself, because when you hear something just continue that you know on repeat, it's hard to ignore it. So when you keep telling yourself this is your inner voice, this is not truth, just little things like that. And so naming it awareness is the first disruption when the imposter voice speaks, being able to identify it as imposter phenomenon rather than the truth separates you from the thought. So like said, that is not a fact, that is a pattern. Document your achievements and your evidence. If you're anything like me, I flip from one thing to another and I accumulate the titles and all the good things and the certificates. And then as soon as it's done, I forget about it. Forget about it. And then I go, oh, you know, some people are like, oh, you had a year on. That was a pretty. And then I go, oh, actually I did have a big year. So document your achievements and your evidence. Keep a record of achievements, positive feedback, milestones, testimonials. It's not a boast journal, but it's something that you can refer to to have a concrete, accessible counter evidence to your internal narrative. So a journal or a success vlog or we've talked about before, the fact that at the end of the year I do a reel with all my photos from the year, with some beautiful music and then I have something visual because I'm quite visual. I have something visual. I think, oh, that was a cool year. We did heaps. I'm good at what I Do. No, I'm not an imposter. Talk about it. So my research found that pluralistic ignorance, pluralistic ignorance, the experience of thinking you're alone, that you are alone in your doubts and your thoughts is a significant driver. And pluralistic ignorance, everybody has pluralistic ignorance of many things. We all think we're alone in what we're doing. So when high achieving women speak openly about self doubt, it disrupts that illusion for others. Speaking about it is both self protective and community protective.
- [43:32]
A
It actually reminds me, I'm going to throw this out here before I forget. There is a woman, I believe her name is Reshma Saujani. I'm going to link her in the show. Yeah, I don't know if she wrote a book. Did she write a book about imposter syndrome? I think she did, but she gave a talk on it. I believe she is the founder of a very large, very successful tech company and has been in rooms with leaders from all over the world and big names, et cetera. And just this was something that she spoke about. And I remember that might be my first introduction to the idea of imposter syndrome. But like you say, just hearing her son speak and talk about it made me feel a little more normal and a little less alone. Yeah.
- [44:14]
B
What is normal? None of us wouldn't be normal.
- [44:16]
A
Yeah, well, it took, it took the spotlight off. I'm the only one. What's wrong with me? And that sort of fueling that narrative though, like made me more human. Yes, human things.
- [44:29]
B
Human.
- [44:30]
A
Yeah.
- [44:30]
B
The other. Reframe the internal attribution pattern. So practice noticing when you credit external factors for success and internal factors for failure and deliberately reverse that and ask if a colleague achieved what I just achieved, how would I explain it?
- [44:45]
A
Oh, hang on, that's a good one. If a colleague achieved what I just
- [44:49]
B
achieved, how would I explain it?
- [44:51]
A
Oh, that's.
- [44:51]
B
I like that. Ah, so, you know, if, if I, if I could explain everything that you did, how would I explain it? And I'd attribute it all to. You wouldn't attribute it to your partner or your, to like, or whatever. Yeah, luck, you know, that's a good one, I would say. And I would attribute it to your lived experience and the things that, you know, you had gone through to develop your business and your podcasts and the fact that you are adhd. So you know, these are things attributable to you, not to others, not luck. Build mentorship and peer network. So my research showed these relationships provide validation, counter narrative and access to people who have navigated similar barriers. They are a buffer against isolation. Seek mentors who actively advocate, not just advise and develop your own self advocacy skills. I'm an advocate for so many others. I've had to learn to be an advocate for myself. Imposter phenomenon often manifests as hesitation, negotiate, apply for roles, speak up. Treat advocacy as a learnable skill rather than a personality trait which makes it more accessible.
- [46:03]
A
I just want to pause on that one because I see that that's something I'm often encouraging people I work with to do. You know, they're having to advocate for themselves, especially in the medical professional profession. You know, I don't know that I just have adhd. I think I might have autism as well. Or this medication's not working, even though you seem to think it is. I'm experiencing these side effects and I don't think it's the best one for me. And they're having to sort of push back in this realm where they don't feel like the expert. But I think when you continue to advocate for yourself, it's always something I celebrate with people when they have done that, when they are advocating for themselves. I think that that helps to develop that sense of, you know, or improve your self concept and develop a sense of self esteem, et cetera and to sort of add a little bit more to your evidence that actually, hey, I've done that in the past, I can do that again. Yeah, great. It's a powerful thing.
- [46:52]
B
But you know, one thing I did a couple of years ago, pre ADHD diagnosis, when I was in a really desperate state with my mental health, my sleep, all the rest of it, I actually wrote down a script. Wrote a script? Yep. I read it out, I wrote it and I practiced it and I went into my doctor's surgery. She said, so what can I do for you today? And I was like, I've written you out, I've written some dialogue and I'm going to read verbatim because I'm scared, fit to cry, which I did. I sobbed through it. And she sat there and she goes, that's a lot. I was like, yes, it is. And she goes, okay, thank you, can I have that? And she took it and I said, you can have that copy. And she started circling keywords and she was able to break things down into what we needed to focus on. Now that was actually quite powerful in the fact that one, it made me feel, it made me feel braver because I had something to refer to. But two, it actually gave her some evidence from something that she could work on rather than me just going in there with a scattergun, crumbling facade, you know, she was able to take that and actually, you know, she worked really well and really empathetically with me. So even if you're struggling, I always say take somebody with you to speak on your behalf. Write it down, make notes. I always say make notes and say, can you read my letter? Like whatever form self advocacy takes. Record a video. I don't know, whatever works.
- [48:17]
A
Make it easy for yourself. Whatever works for you?
- [48:20]
B
Yeah, whatever works for you. I think there are some specific strategies for neurodivergent women as well. Understand your ADHD profile.
- [48:28]
A
Right.
- [48:29]
B
Understand yourself. And I don't know about you, but when I found out I had adhd, I went into a hyper fixation on reading ADHD books and learning everything I could.
- [48:38]
A
I became an encyclopedia like overnight, totally,
- [48:41]
B
you know, so know the difference between an executive function challenge and a competence deficit? They're not the same. You know, what are you struggling with? Because you're having a bad executive function challenge versus where do you just actually not have the skill and competency?
- [48:59]
A
Yes. Separate those two things.
- [49:01]
B
Separate them two things. And it could be that, for example, a client that I'm working with at the moment had been treated really badly by their employer, but it turns out there's a whole lot of construction going behind them and has been for three years. So they're in this environment where they meant to focus, but they've had construction shaking the building for three years and then she's been put on a pip and told she's not good enough. Well, let's break this down. So the fact that somebody has struggled who start a task does not mean that they're not capable of doing it. You know, just because you've struggled to start the task, start a task does not mean that you're capable of doing it. So embrace the most toothless.
- [49:44]
A
I think that's a very powerful statement. Yeah. Just because you're struggling to start, it doesn't mean that you're. Yeah, you're not capable.
- [49:51]
B
It's struggle on the daily with many things. But I know when I, when I get into it, when I get it done, I've been powerful, you know, create external scaffolding. So compensating through systems and structures is not evidence of incompetence, it is evidence of self knowledge. So you've used systems and structures to mask, to build strong scaffold, you know, so for me, I would crumble without lists. I would not be able to function without lists. And in fact, I don't know how anybody functions without lists, but apparently they do so. But it doesn't mean that I'm not good enough just because I rely on lists. It's not a sign of my incompetence. It actually makes me like really, really dynamic some days. It's an evidence of self knowledge. I know that what I need to put in place to help me on the daily. So use the tools and reduce the cognitive load. We talked about AI if you're struggling with a start. So you need. And this could be a whole nother podcast because AI needs to be used ethically and with critical thinking. You can't rely on AI to do your job for you. But if you're struggling to start with a letter or a script for your document, Dr. Key points into AI. Let it spit it out. And then you work to mold it, you know, to tease it out. You still need to be a subject matter expert on yourself. You can't just rely on AI to do your job for you. It can't. You know, it can help me with my work, but it can't. It doesn't have the skills and competency. So use both tools and reduce the cognitive load. Seek accommodations proactively. If your workplace has the capacity to support you, use it. Don't be a hero. You know, needing support to produce your best work is not shameful, it is practical.
- [51:43]
A
Oh, say that one again.
- [51:46]
B
You're going to be writing these all down, aren't you? Needing support to produce your best work is not shameful, it's practical.
- [51:53]
A
I like that.
- [51:55]
B
Yeah, I like that. And find community with other neurodivergent women. The late diagnosed experience in particular benefits from peer connection with women who understand both the belief and the grief of finally having a framework for a lifetime of experience. Here we are, people, 100% agree with your community, the relief and the grief organizational strategies as well. Because remember I said we can't pathologize this as an internal state. So there are things we can be doing. So organizations can provide specific skills based feedback rather than vague personality critiques. Okay, so Xena, what I see with your work is that I see that when you're doing your written work. I love the. I love your structure. I'm noticing that there are quite a few spelling errors.
- [52:43]
A
Yeah, you're making up stuff. Trust me, there would be. Trust me.
- [52:49]
B
What I need is for you to run your work through Grammarly, run it under the eye of somebody else, run it through AI. Make sure that it's you know, it's really well written before it comes back to me or ask me for help as opposed to going, oh, Xena, I just don't like your work. It's just not floating my boat.
- [53:11]
A
So vague. So unhelpful. Nothing to work.
- [53:14]
B
It's just not good enough.
- [53:15]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [53:15]
B
So can you give me some feedback? So, see, what I did before, it was specific. It gave you metrics. It gave you tools to help it.
- [53:25]
A
Yeah, to help work on that area.
- [53:27]
B
Oh, you're just not a team player. Well, what do you mean by that?
- [53:31]
A
Oh, that's a classic one, isn't it? You're just not a team player.
- [53:34]
B
Team player.
- [53:35]
A
What do you mean by that? Can you give that an example?
- [53:38]
B
How could I be one? Yeah, you eat your lunch separate in the lunchroom and you don't join in. Yeah, because I'm overstimulated and I actually just want to read my book and listen to my music.
- [53:49]
A
I don't want to go outside because I don't like being inside all day and whatever.
- [53:53]
B
Actually, you know, you're not paying me for my lunch break, so why would I, you know. Anyway, things like that.
- [53:58]
A
Yeah.
- [53:59]
B
Address the authority gap and the prove it again dynamic through clear, equitable promotion and evaluation criteria. How are you? How are you. So you say you're a meritocratic organization, that you're taking people on merit, on what they're achieving. So if you're. If you're taking people on, have a framework of clear, equitable promotion and evaluation criteria. It comes back to that. Not just vague like, ah, slap on the back, you'll do. You know, you're charismatic. That's what we often hear a lot with men who get promoted. You're charismatic. You know, charismatic people person. What does that mean?
- [54:38]
A
It means that they went to the golf course and drank beers together is probably what that means, right?
- [54:43]
B
Yeah.
- [54:43]
A
Yeah.
- [54:45]
B
Foster psychological safety environments where people can take risk, ask questions and acknowledge uncertainty without fear of judgment.
- [54:53]
A
That sounds huge in a workplace.
- [54:55]
B
It is huge in the workplace. I work with so many. Actually, all my clients are amazing because they are all committed to best practice. You know, hence they take somebody like myself on. There are so many organizations out there where there is a blame culture. My husband actually did some work several years ago and he was telling me about something called just culture. J U S T culture. So it's like the justice culture where it's a no blame you. You develop a culture where it's a no blame culture. Instead of blaming people, you are. So if Something goes wrong. For an example, you. Why seven times over till you get to the root cause. Because there will be many people involved in something going wrong. Often it's not just the one person at the end. Zena, you stuffed up. Okay, but why did I stuff up?
- [55:41]
A
Yeah, why didn't you make that mistake?
- [55:43]
B
Oh, random manual at the start. Actually didn't Google your instructions. Right? Yes.
- [55:48]
A
Oh, I like that. That's very good. Yeah, yeah.
- [55:50]
B
Normalize conversations about self doubt at a leadership level. When senior leaders speak openly about uncertainty, it reduces the stigma for everyone below them. Yeah, there's some powerful pieces in there
- [56:07]
A
about the safety though, like the psychological safety, like the feeling safe enough to be able to approach your manager, your boss, whoever it is, or somebody in your workplace. That's huge. And I know that some of the people I work with, fortunately they have that. And I think that's amazing when somebody's kind of created that environment. But sometimes they don't. And that's a difficult one when you don't feel safe enough to lead, to
- [56:36]
B
be a top down leadership. I think there are so many connectors between ADHD and imposter phenomenon that we didn't even touch on. You know, we talked about that sort of polarizing view of I'm capable versus I'm failing executive function challenges. So people's working memory, planning, task initiation, time management mean that people with ADHD often experience a gap between what they know they can do and what they actually produce in a given moment. So we talked about that before. That's a fertile ground for self doubt, rejection, sensitivity. Dysphoria common in ADHD involves an intense emotional response to real or perceived criticism, failure or rejection. Even minor professional setbacks can feel catastrophic and confirming. See, I knew that I wasn't the moan. Skiing and performance tacks. Many women with ADHD spend enormous energy masking their difficulties. Appearing organized, keeping up socially mighty hyperactivity that presents more internally racing thoughts, emotional dysregulation rather than externally. This performance is invisible to colleagues and managers, which means their struggles are invisible too. And when you're putting extraordinary effort into appearing normal or competent and then you're praised for your work, that praise feels fraudulent. You know, what went into producing that result? You know, the chaos.
- [57:56]
A
Exhausting. It feels exhausting too.
- [57:58]
B
Yeah, exhausting the gap between the internal reality and the external perception. So, you know, people see the work that I've done, but they didn't see the fact that I crumbled for two hours and couldn't move. So when I do produce this great body of work. I go, oh, but, you know, it was, you know, it was flawed.
- [58:17]
A
Yeah.
- [58:17]
B
Also, you know, ADHD diagnosis often comes too late for women, so we know it's historically under identified. Girls are often socialised to internalise and mask rather than externalise, so the presentation does not match the stereotypical profile. Many women receive a diagnosis in their 30s or 40s after a lifetime of being told they were not, not trying hard enough. We're too emotional, we're underperforming in their potential.
- [58:43]
A
So no one experience imposter syndrome.
- [58:46]
B
Yeah, I could go on and on. Hyperfocus is the imposter paradox. Hyperfocus, which is where a feature of adhd, where someone achieves extraordinary output in an area of intense interest, can produce genuinely impressive results. But because the person knows those results came from a burst of intense focus rather than consistent planned effort, they discount not. That wasn't real work.
- [59:11]
A
That's something I see a lot is discounting. Discounting the effort, discounting the achievement, discounting. Yeah. One of the things I used to do this a lot, I don't do it so much now, is I used to give people the homework of creating their own file of fantastic shit and I'd make them go back a certain amount of time in their life and find all of the fantastic shit that they've done. It could be that they got a degree, that they got married, that they bought a house, it could be that they got a job that they wanted, that they had this really difficult conversation with a family member and it was a significant moment. It could be they did a triathlon, anything whatsoever, and you create this file and then every week we would continue to add to that, you know, what's gone well this week, which is something I now ask myself and I ask the people I work with, you know, what are your wins? What's gone well since I saw you last, what progress have you made? And initially that's often something that they really struggle with, but over time, by doing that, you can see how much that improves their self esteem. They start to see, oh, actually, I am achieving things, I am making progress and it's less discounted. Whereas previously it was just, you know, once it's out of sight, it's out of mind, it's totally discounted.
- [60:16]
B
That's something I talked about.
- [60:18]
A
Yeah.
- [60:21]
B
There are so many, you know, I'm really quite passionate about this area and as I talked about as well, the intersectional layer as well, you know, so a woman who is neurodivergent, a Woman, which comes under the disability umbrella under the Human Rights Act. You know, we have a, you know, we have a valid disability. So that intersection between dis, woman of color, religion, age, so many intersections. You know, the intersection of women with ADHD can make the feeling of imposter, Imposter syndrome phenomenon more prevalent and make it feel worse.
- [61:07]
A
Yeah, I think, I think we've covered a lot though. Like, it's a fascinating area and I would love to talk with you about this all day because I find it so interesting. But I think we've covered so much in this episode already. Maybe we need to do a follow up. But we've really explored what it looks like, how it shows up. But also, I love that you've really cemented for me, it's not just something that's in my head, so to speak, it's something that is hugely influenced by the company that I work in, the organization that I work in, they are contributing to that, that as well. So that has been, yeah, huge. Very helpful. Again, there were so many one liners that, you know, I made you repeat which I'm going to have to like go through and, and write down after this. But I think again, we've covered a lot of what it looks like, how it crosses over with ADHD specifically. But I love the strategies you gave us, like this huge list of strategies, things that you do, things that came out of the research that can really help. Yeah. Is there anything you feel like we missed? Because I know we've gone through so much.
- [62:16]
B
I know, I don't think so. And I think we could be here all day. You could probably, you know, you can make up even further strategies. If I had more time, I could probably finish. But I think the key here is that you're not broken. You don't need to be fixed.
- [62:32]
A
Yeah. And you're not alone.
- [62:33]
B
I'm ready to fix yourself. You're not alone. Don't, you know, fix yourself or no. You know, there's so many factors here. Like I said, there's a degree of self reflexivity that I always encourage everybody to go through who consider what they can do. You know, it's that whole don't be a victim, like you need to actually put work into yourself. We should all be working on ourselves on a daily basis.
- [62:58]
A
And if you haven't the greatest project
- [62:59]
B
you'll ever have, that's for sure, that project, you know.
- [63:03]
A
But maybe send this episode to your employer potentially.
- [63:08]
B
Just saying, you stay, you know, no, you're not something to be fixed. There are so many. So many factors for why you're experiencing this. But it's not an entirely internal state. That would be. That would be. The closing statement, is that you're not broken.
- [63:29]
A
Yeah.
- [63:30]
B
Even when we feel broken, when we feel like our brains are broken, we don't have broken brains. We have brains that think differently, you know, and.
- [63:40]
A
And there's an asset. And that's an asset in so many ways. I know it can sometimes be really hard to see that, but I love being different. I would not want to be neurotypical. How boring is that? It's like vanilla ice cream. Why would you have vanilla when you can have goody goody gumdrops? Come on.
- [63:55]
B
But saying that my husband's neurotypical and I adore him and he's not boring, so
- [64:01]
A
there's a place for them, that's for sure.
- [64:06]
B
I can pick out the neurospices now. Anywhere, everywhere I'll go. You found a tribe. No, you're not broken. Your brain is not broken. You're different. And I think there's. Now they've identified. There's about one in three of us in every workplace. We're in there. And whilst you're advocating for yourself with this sort of thing, you're also advocating for others through your hands, you know, and you don't need to be this enraged activist to make change, you know, Although there's also a place for enraged activists as well. But you don't need to be in there and like screaming the house down. Cause it probably won't do you any favors in the workplace, but you can make change through subtle, you know, quiet, tentative moves. Yeah. When you see me, the first thing is actually putting. Putting this podcast up and tagging a few people.
- [64:58]
A
Yep. Heck, yeah. Sending it their way now. Tell our listeners I'll link to this in the show notes, but tell people where can they connect with you? Where can they find you if they're interested in the work that you're doing?
- [65:07]
B
So if you're an employer, you can find me on www.marbles M A R B L E S.org NZ and I came up with it initially because clients I was working with were losing their marbles. However, now I kind of like to think of it as an analogy for lots of different types of marbles in a jar. We're all different. And then if you're an employee or individual looking for representational help, you can find me on www.jamie j a I m e roserose co nz. Awesome. And I am always really happy to talk about any of this at length. Yeah, we always manage to come up with an hour long podcast, don't we?
- [65:51]
A
Oh, easily, easily. And we could keep going. I know. Thank you so much, Jamie. You are just a wealth of knowledge and I'm so happy that you've come back to share with us. So yeah, thank you for having me. Hey friend, if you want some more help navigating and thriving with ADHD and some help applying everything that you're learning here on the podcast, then head over to our website navigating a dashboard saltadhd.com.