David (4:24)

Yeah, he was very nice. Yeah, Nasty recognized nasty.

Matt (4:29)

Some would say nasty recognized nasty. That's why you loved him a lot. And he had some very intriguing views. And some of the chat and some of the comments afterwards got a little nasty. They got. They got a little nasty.

David (4:43)

They were.

Matt (4:43)

They were kind of upset. Some of them were upset with me. And I. And I think it was valid. I think some of the people said, like, matt, well, I can't believe, like, you didn't just stand up and, like, say what the Bible says. And I. So I just want to say that, like, my thing is not, like, arguing with people, and it's definitely not, like arguing over doctrine. Like, you have to be very close to me for me to argue with you. For one, you have to be, like, incredibly close to me. Like, I'll argue with you.

David (5:05)

Bingo.

Matt (5:06)

Because that's also how you get information out of me. Like, you're just. And I've been around people like that. I used to work for a guy who, like, whenever I would enter the conversation with him, he's my old boss at Trinity, I'd say, hey, man, we need to do this, that or the other. His first thing that he would always say was no. And so people were terrified of this guy. Like, most salespeople or most people that worked in the company just were very intimidated by him. And they were like, yeah, man, everything. He just says no. And then they would leave. What they didn't understand was what he was saying when he said no was, welcome to the conversation. Have a seat. They thought it was the end of the conversation. I knew this guy enough to know, and I was close enough with him, we were family friends that I knew he was saying, you need to sell this to me. Like, if you. Like, if you're asking me to set up displays in somebody's showroom that are going to cost the company 10 grand, you need to explain to me what this is going to do for the company. And so I needed to explain, like, yeah, here's the cost up front. Here's what we can expect every month, and here's how long it'll take to get our money back, and then here's how long we'll continue to make money. And if I couldn't do that, then his answer was no. Right? It was his way of extracting information from me for. For him to be okay with whatever idea I was coming up with. And you're kind of like that. You're kind of like that. You like to be a little nasty. You like to argue, but it's really your way of, like, prying information. You don't even necessarily disagree with me. A lot of times when you argue, you just want to hear my points that I answer.

David (6:26)

With no. And to be honest, this last episode that you're referencing, I disagreed with the guy on everything. I disagree with him so much to the point where I was making. I was still manning his points just to see if I could make it make a little bit more sense. And I came away. I don't know. Everybody else, what I assume the audience will come away when the episode airs, is unconvinced. Maybe they'll be a little upset because we just kind of, like, watched as he did whatever. But I was like, does this even need refutation?

Matt (6:54)

No, that's like.

David (6:56)

That's kind of what. Where I was at.

Matt (6:57)

That's kind of what brings me to my next point was. I know you guys hate when I do this, but I was just watching the chat the whole time.

David (7:03)

Yeah, I saw your face.

Matt (7:04)

The chat didn't need us to refute the guy. The chat refuted him, dude. And I was so proud of.

David (7:09)

Some people in the chat needed a daddy.

Matt (7:12)

No, I don't think so.

David (7:13)

They. They did. And I had to kick some people out. They needed daddy to hold their hand and tell them that it was all okay. And they also needed me to soundly defeat a monster or who they perceived as a monster. But what I saw was a guy that was saying stuff that I was like, this is like, we. We talk about this all the time. If you read the Bible, even peruse the Bible, this is blatantly false. I thought the whole thing about what he was saying about gay people being beyond redemption. I was like, it's pretty clear that's not the case. And it's also very disrespectful to Jesus Christ and his sacrifice to put limits on it like that, because you might be gay yourself or whatever. So I'm like, I don't even need. What are we even talking about here? Why do I need to, like, come to a.

Matt (7:53)

You don't. And furthermore, like I said, the chat. You weren't watching it, like, through the show. They were all over it. Like. Like it was honorable to see the chat. I was like. I was like, damn, bro. The. The chat is like, sound biblically, dude. Like, they weren't just fighting and saying, I don't like him. They were coming in with scripture passages and refuting the things he was saying, like, by scripture. And I was, like, honored to be on the team with the chat, bro. Like, I love the chat. Like, we are a little family, and they didn't need us to, like, argue with this guy and prove him wrong. But I would like to Add another point to that, and that's this. So, like, initially he's saying that. And initially, like, my first thing. Sorry. Was like, okay, this is crazy what he's saying. Homosexuals are past repentance.

David (8:38)

But that's a technique.

Matt (8:39)

Okay.

David (8:39)

But yes, and he. And it's the technique that he's using successfully. It's also one that I've used in the past, but along the lines of comedy. And this is very important because you've touched on this on straight Bible, you're like, when somebody's a pastor, the. The price that they will pay for misleading is severe. When somebody's doing comedy and you're doing it in an exploitive manner in order to get a point across, which is what I think the guy was doing. It's. It's a little different, but he's playing with fire. Well, just want to say that.

Matt (9:07)

And it's a fair point. There was, like, a shock and all value. I don't really know the dude either. And you asked me to come on the show, like, I don't know, 30 minutes before the show, or maybe it was earlier than that. I don't know.

David (9:17)

But it was like the same.

Matt (9:18)

Same day. And so I don't know. When he first said it, I was like, wait, is this one of those, like, comedy buddies that is, like, just saying, like, a crazy comedy thing?

David (9:27)

No.

Matt (9:28)

Like, initially I was like, wait, did the guys just dupe me? And like, this is just a guy. He's just going for, like, shock value to, like, in its comedy that you're not supposed to laugh at. But it's kind of so funny that you. That you're trying not to laugh, but it's gonna make you laugh more.

David (9:40)

Yeah, it's funny.

Matt (9:40)

So I thought that, like, that was like, my first second was I thought that, but then. And this is where it's going to get. And I think also he's a product of how far the pendulum has swung in society, bro. Like, the pendulum just swung way too far with LGBTQ elemental P And like, a kid's born with a wiener, but they're actually a girl. And like, all this madness it produces people like that. Like, that's like, that's what happens. And so I don't think it's even just in the world. It's like in the church, dude. Like, you have dudes, they're like, we just saw Paul say, this guy who's bone in his dad's wife, he has to be out of the church. Not only can he not be in A leadership role. He can't even be in the church until this gets corrected. Do you see what I'm saying? Nowadays, we'll have somebody in a leadership role living in open, defiant sin like that. And so this is what happens. Then you have. In that same body, you have people who swing so far this way. But this is the crazy thing I want to say. I know this is offensive. I'm going to say it anyway.

David (10:38)

He's right.

Matt (10:39)

No, no. I just. As far as me, like, arguing doctrine with people, I'm really not gonna do it. I really do want to hear people out. And I know the fact that we had him on the show, like, that's the purpose of having a guest on the show, is let him speak. Let everybody hear his views. Like, if we cut him off and prove him wrong now, everybody doesn't get to hear all his views the way we did it. Everybody got to hear it also.

David (11:01)

I will say I. It started off with a disagreement that I had with him that was kind of nasty. And then he became like. He's like, hey, listen, I'll talk to you. And I really respect that. If, like, all right. Instead of. Instead of, like, going at me and trying to cut my throat online was kind of like the. The game of this blood sport online, like, let's have a conversation. I was like, for sure. So now if I'm hosting you, I'm not gonna. You know, I mean, we've hosted Jacob Israel, who. I don't really agree with much of what he said, but I'm amicable, and I go, okay, let's have this discussion and see what you say. Leave it up to the audience to decipher what they think about it.

Matt (11:36)

I think we did it right. And it went exactly how it was supposed to go. The guy. The guy put out his stuff, and I don't think anybody in the chat was deceived by it.

David (11:43)

I had fun.

Matt (11:44)

Yeah. The chat was like, okay, cool. And then people were very nasty afterwards, demanding biblical truth. I'm not even mad at that guy who was, like, so nasty in the chat and was, like, demanding biblical truth. And why did we just, like, let him say his piece? Because that's what we do. Because we're not afraid of the truth. We don't think that, like, somebody's gonna. We. We stand so wholeheartedly on the truth. If somebody comes in and says something. Not truth. We're not afraid of that. Go ahead, say it, bro. It's whatever. And some people are not like that. That's okay, too but that's my position is let the man speak. And this is the crazy thing, bro. And I know everybody's like, oh, no, I. I have all my doctrine lined up and I know everything. I don't, dude. Like, I don't. And I know a lot of times how many things I've heard from somebody that initially I. I'm just straight offended by it. And I'm like, they're totally wrong. And then as they unpack it. This podcast is supported by Trust and Will, an online estate planning service. Visit trustandwill.com for details.

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Matt (14:33)

I'm like, okay, wait a minute. What's he saying? Think about the first time you ever heard that Angels were boning humans. I don't know about you, and I don't 100% remember the first time I heard that, but I do remember initially, like, being offended by that, by that statement being like, nah, bro, that's not in the Bible. And then as somebody unpacked it, I was like, okay, dude, I need to, like, I need to unpack this myself. I need to look through the scripture and find out if this is true. So initially, like, with the shock and all what he was saying, I'm like, nah, dude, this guy's way off. But then I was like, this has happened to me before where I've heard somebody say something, like, so crazy. And I'm like, no, dude, there's no way. And then as they unpack it through Scripture, I'm like, wow, okay, maybe I missed that now. I didn't think that that was gonna happen, but I was absolutely gonna give him the opportunity to do that. And he did go to the scriptures. He went to Romans 1 to make this point. Do you see what I'm saying? And so I'm not somebody who's like, oh, no, I know everything. I have flawless doctrine. All my doctrine's right. Somebody says something that I disagree with, I need to shut them down and prove them wrong. And that's not my thing. I want to hear them out.

David (15:37)

I. I did hear him out, and I let him talk. And again, I'm not. I'm not going to debate him right there and then on what he's saying, because it's kind of like not really what we're doing here. But one of the things that I did take exception with is his. His translation of Second Thessalonians, which I thought was. I let him say what he had to say. And he was, like, very strong, like, very. Felt very strongly about what he thought. And I thought that it was just completely wrong. And I'll bring this up a little bit later today. There were other things. Like, I think he's completely wrong about the Sons of Seth. Do you want me to go and jump down his throat and tell him that? I mean, it's. I think the Bible is very clear that. Of what it says, and especially when we back it up with. With the. The term. The terminology in Job, it's fairly simple what we're talking about here. If you don't want to see it, fine. What am I supposed to do, right? Like, yell at you to you?

Matt (16:27)

And also, we don't know where this dude's at in the journey. And we're in the long game here. I think it's important that we all remember that. I try to always remember that, bro. Like, we're in the long game, and I'm especially not, like, caring to do a good episode or get good content. Like, we're putting out something that's timeless, dude. Like, so many great men of God have spoken into my life that passed away before I was ever born, and some before I was ever born again. And people that I didn't even live in the same time period of, but I have access to their books, some of them. I have access to some of their videos to that are speaking into my life today. Like, some people make fun of me because I have, like, greater fellowship with people who aren't on the earth anymore than people who are on the earth. Like, I just have great fellowship with people who. I'm reading their stuff and my heart's, like, intertwined with them, and they're not even in my time period, dude. But they've spoken into my heart so much, man. I appreciate what they're doing. And so we have to understand some of the stuff we're doing. Even though we. We want to get like, the X followers and get more people and do this and that, make a great show and get great little snippets for the shorts, we're doing something timeless, dude. We don't know where this dude's at in the journey. And who knows? If he doesn't come on the show, kind of put his position out, then he respond back from the chat. The chat is saying some stuff. Maybe he watches our show as time goes on. Maybe he goes, you know what? I'm going to rethink some of this stuff.

David (17:40)

Well, I hope he. I hope he comes back. I invited him to come back eventually at some point. I think that. I think that there are points that we could. We can really talk about and, like, clear some stuff up. So I thought it was a decent conversation in that. Again, didn't agree with him at all. But I don't need to agree with people in order to, like, talk with them.

Matt (17:58)

We're.

David (17:58)

We're gonna have a guy on in an hour or two that I don't really agree with what he's saying, and I think it's dangerous but not going to be nasty about it. I'm also not going to cut him off at the knees. We're gonna have a discussion.

Matt (18:08)

No, you and Alberino have a lot in common, bro. Yeah, like, you guys have that same passage, the Thessalonian passage in common like you disagreed with the nasty guy.

David (18:16)

I. I just tend to be more critical, nasty to people that I'm, like, in alignment with. Like, people that I think, like, okay, we agree with so much. Why. Why is there this weird deception with you? You know, rather than people who. I'm like, this guy's just kind of out there floating around.

Matt (18:34)

Yeah, it was a while. It was a wild take. Like, you said some wild stuff on the tweeter. Then he said some wild stuff. He said, let's do a show. That's cool. And it was exactly what it's supposed to be. But let's unpack that Romans one passage. Because his point was that homosexuals are past the point of repentance because of the Romans 1 passage. And I think on the show I asked or made the point that I thought that. That Romans 1 passage was not dealing with the individual, was kind of dealing with mankind as a whole and not so that, like, that individual. This is exactly how it plays out when somebody turns to homosexuality. But, like, this is what happens in mankind as homosexuality becomes a dominant thing. Right. So let's just read Romans 1. We're not going to go real long today. This is just like a quick episode. We're just gonna roll with it. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated under the Gospel of God. Remember, he goes to great lengths to say, like, he's a servant first, then he's an apostle, but he's always an apostle by Jesus Christ, not by man. And I like how he says separated under the Gospel of God, like we're separated from the world. Remember, that was last week's show is the world. And we're completely separated from that which he had promised before by his prophets in the Holy Scriptures concerning his son, Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. So Jesus was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead. If he's not resurrected, throw the whole Bible out. If he's not resurrected, he's just Buddha or Muhammad or Confucius. It's.

David (20:09)

That's offensive.

Matt (20:09)

Yeah. If he. If he's not resurrected, none of this means anything. By whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name. Among whom are you also the called of Jesus Christ to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints, Grace to you and peace from God, our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all. Remember we talked about that in the Galatian letter last week. That, like, that's the one church where Paul doesn't thank God for him. It's very intriguing. He always does this in the beginning of his letters. He says, I thank God for you. What's he thank him for? That your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. So in Rome, like the epicenter, the faith, like the. Like the real Christianity was in Rome at that early time and it was talked about everywhere. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit and the Gospel of his Son, that without ceasing, I make mention of you always in my prayers, making request, if by any means, any means. Now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come visit you. For I long to see you so that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift to the end that you may be established. That's a rad verse Paul's talking about. I want to come be in person with you to impart a spiritual gift. That is that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith, both of you and me. That. That's like true Christian fellowship. Talk about fellowship means that, like, you go to a building, you talk about the football game in the lobby and where you're gonna go eat at after the show. You sit down, you listen to the announcements. Five songs in a speech, and you stare at the back of somebody else.

David (21:41)

Maybe you go down the slide.

Matt (21:42)

Yeah, like. Like biblically, we wouldn't really call that fellowship. We would say fellowship is like this, Romans 1:12. That I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith, both of you and me. That we may do some back and forth about our faith. Now, I would not have you ignorant brethren, that oftentimes I purpose to come unto you. But was let hitherto that I might have some fruit among you also. Even as among other Gentiles, I'm a debtor both to the Greeks and to the barbarians, both to the wise and to the unwise. Paul always looked at his life like he owed. Like he owed somebody something. Nobody owed Paul anything. He owed God. And he owed mankind to the preaching of the gospel. I love this dude. So as much as in me is I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. Why? Because I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. Because the gospel of Christ is the power of God and the salvation to everyone that believes to the Jew first and also to the Greek. We're not going to unpack the Jew first because we don't want to trigger the chat. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. As it is written, the just shall live by faith, right? There's all these references to the just living by faith, not by the law, but living by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Right? Living by faith is different than holding the truth and unrighteousness. You could say those are opposites. This is where we're getting into the crux of it now. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath showed it unto them. Some would say this passage is talking about the conscience within man, right? Like, remember, Jesus Christ is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. That's in John chapter one. I think it's verse nine or verse 12. But Jesus Christ is the light that lights every man that comes into the world, not just those who are born again. And some would say that's conscience. Like, man has a conscience, right to know right and wrong. You can go anywhere on the planet. Like, you could go into some jungle and tell a man, like, hey, I'm gonna take your wife in this tent over here and do whatever I want. And even though he doesn't have like, like, maybe written language, he doesn't have anything in society, he knows already all men on earth, like, no, no, no, no. I have a conscience. And that's wrong. That action is wrong. Do you see what I'm saying? So man is born with conscience, for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen. So the invisible things are clearly seen. There is an invisible realm. There's invisible things, and they're clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, by the things that are seen. So you can look at the seen world and know that there's something beyond this, and man is held accountable for that. The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and godhead, so that they are without excuse. So what are the things that are seen? The Godhead. This podcast is supported by Trust and Will, an online estate planning service. Visit trustandwill.com for details.

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Matt (25:37)

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David (25:50)

Limit amounts, fees, limitations and exclusions.

Matt (25:52)

God it's known that there's a Creator. It's known that there's a God. Because look at the created world like that's what the Bible's clearly saying. You'll and you'll be held accountable for that. Look at that. Because that when they knew God it says hold on, I'm gonna read it again. For the invisible things of Him. Sorry. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead. So that they are without excuse. They are without excuse. Everybody will be held accountable for how they view this. Because that when they knew God, they glorified him, not as God, neither were thankful. Remember we always talk about that. That's step one is be thankful, know him as God and be thankful. But they became vain. They became meaningless and their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Right? So this is a process. They became vain. They became fools because they denied God as the Creator and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image, into an idol made like to corruptible man, into birds and a four footed beast and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the loss of their own hearts to dishonor their own bodies between themselves. So when they deny God as Creator, he steps away and leaves them to themselves who change the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator who is blessed Forever. Amen.

David (27:25)

Can I ask you something?

Matt (27:26)

Yeah.

David (27:27)

So this verse here where he says, wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lust of their own hearts to dishonor their own bodies between themselves. So this is like kind of what he's using as. Yeah, the crux of homosexuality. But earlier in this. In this chapter, he talks about having. He talks about like. Like being in the same place with somebody that has the same faith, where their faith can wrestle each other. It's almost like a. It feels like a yin and yang of this. This particular person that is without God, that he's going to wrestle with the flesh of the other person or their flesh will be entangled the same way that our faith would be entangled. Is that. Does that make any sense? Or am I. Am I making that up here?

Matt (28:15)

No, you're kind of saying crazy stuff, but I think I'm tracking with you. You're saying that, like, in the body of Christ, we mingle with one another in faith. And if you don't do that and you're outside of faith. Is that what you're saying, that.

David (28:29)

Yeah, I'll just find the. I'll find the scripture that he said.

Matt (28:32)

I mean, he's. He's bluntly saying that. Well, he hasn't really gotten into it yet. I mean, he's kind of alluding to it, about dishonoring their own bodies between themselves.

David (28:42)

This one here. So verse eight. I thank God. I thank God through Jesus Christ for all of you. That faith is spoken through of the world.

Matt (28:50)

I think you're talking about verse 12.

David (28:52)

Verse 12. Okay. That I may come, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith, both of you and me.

Matt (29:02)

You're talking about that their faith goes back and forth.

David (29:05)

Yeah, yeah. It's like there's like an intermingling of the faith when you're with somebody. So when that is not there, what is that then? What's left? I guess just flesh.

Matt (29:14)

Yeah. That's a valid observation. Yeah. I mean, it's not exactly what this is talking about. This is talking about, like, the flesh is just wicked and evil. So when God steps away and leaves your flesh to itself, like the flesh is wicked and evil, and this is what it goes after. Our carnal, animal nature starts to act like this outside the grace and mercy of God, because that's what it's saying. He's stepping away from them. And now your own flesh is wicked and corrupt as it is now. It's out there on full display. But here's what they do. They verse 25, who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator who's blessed forever. Amen. Now this is all the people who don't want to serve God, right? But they want to save the earth, they want to save the whales, they want to save the rainforest. They love the creation more than the Creator himself. We run into this in the food forest community a lot, right? Like people are enamored by like the world of food foresting and growing food and like a seed turns into this giant tree and it's incredible. And those people give a lot of glory and honor to so called Mother Earth or the creation. Whereas we're like, no, we love the Creator, man. Like the Creator is the one who set all this up and we honor him and respect him in all of this. Do you see what I'm saying? As soon as you remove God from it, that's all you're left with is the creation. So watch what he's. Watch what happens next. For this cause, God gave them up unto vile affections. For even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. Which is ironic because they're still claiming to be all about nature. Which is like really ironic because like the gay thing is like, oh, you're all about nature, but if everybody was gay, like that's the end of humanity. Like, like it's this generation, there is no next generation. Like that's the end of humanity. Oh, you're so natural. You're all about natural. Yeah, you're a hippie and you're so natural. Like, like, no, no, you're missing it. They're claiming like that they're natural and all this, but they change into the unnatural use of their body. This is what the dude's talking about from last week.

David (31:18)

Well, in a way, aren't they natural to like the world, Right?

Matt (31:20)

Like you could say that, yeah, that your carnal nature is nasty. Hey, not to use your word, but okay. So this is why I was letting this dude unpack this. And I was like, hey, maybe there's something I missed here. Like, like maybe there is something I missed here. And likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another. Men with men working that which is unseemly and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meat. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient, being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, backbiters, haters of God despiteful, proud boasters, inventors of evil things disobedient to parents without understanding, covenant breakers without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful, who, knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, they don't only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. That's Romans 1, and it's a fair point for him to make. He's saying, no, man, they have already rejected God. The fact that they're acting out homosexuality is an evidence that they've rejected God. And that's why they're past the point of repentance. That's a fair thing for that dude to say. I. I don't agree with it. I don't think the scripture bears witness to that. But that's a fair thing for him to break down the scripture. He. He didn't go to some Buddhist book or some worldly book or some occult book to make his point. He went to the word of God. And I disagree with that view. But. But that's his view. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. He's saying that the fact that they're a homosexual, it proves that they've already rejected God. That's his point.

David (32:58)

Now, I also want to say here that the scripture does say debate. Being filled with debate is an issue.

Matt (33:08)

Yeah. Time for you to take it to heart, boy. Let's go.

David (33:12)

I'm saying, I don't debate. Debate is for. For gay people.

Matt (33:15)

So when people say creation kind of came together of itself, there's no God, and there's no God to be held accountable to. Like, like, that's what's happening here. Now, my take has always been, as I've read this passage, is that when society does that as a whole, then the next thing you see is a spike in men with men with men and women with women. When society does this as a whole. Like, I look at American time period, there's this dude, he came up with this theory. He had a theory. He never said it was. He had proof or facts. He said, I have this theory called evolution. We don't know. The dude could have been on mushrooms or LSD or something. This is like, going back a ways. This dude's called Darwin, and he had this theory called evolution. And then, like, our society got to a point where they taught it as fact. They didn't say, like, oh, some dude had some theory. Seems like it's kind of crazy. Like a thing was an amoeba, then it was a bug, then it was a worm, then it was a fish, then it was a monkey, and then it turned into a human. It seems kind of crazy, but a guy thought that. No, no, they teach that as fact. And my view has always been that as our society did that, then after that, we saw spike in men with men and women with women, according to this, Romans one passage. Almost like a curse on the society when they did that. Not on an individual basis. Not. Not that it. Like. Like, I don't like here. Like, I guess. Here's what I'm trying to get at of why that's a society thing. That's how I read that. Does that make sense? They're like, as a society rejects God as mankind in. In a. In a group rejects him as creator. Then after that, you see the spike in men with women.

David (34:56)

Well, we saw. We saw that in First Samuel last week. Right? They reject God because they request the king, and God goes, okay, fine, but here are the consequences. And then they accept the consequences.

Matt (35:07)

Sure, yeah.

David (35:08)

And then boom. Now you live with that. So, yeah, I think that's 100.

Matt (35:11)

Now, here's why I don't think it's on an individual basis. When I was a kid, I had a cousin that was gay. And like, as far back as I can remember, he was gay. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you just knew. I'm not saying when he was 5, he was with other boys, but you could tell when he was 5, he was gay. I don't think when he was 4, he rejected God as a creator. I don't. I don't know that he ever did. I don't think he ever did. I think he grew up thinking there's a God knowing there's a God knowing that God created the world, and yet he still. He was gay, man. Like, I talked about last week, that people were like, born this way. I had a friend when I was a kid, my closest friend when I was a kid. He's like this tough, rough guy. Football player. He was my guy. We played baseball on the street in our neighborhood, like, every day in the summertime. He was, like a rough dude. He was like my tight friend. His older brother was, like, a rough guy. His dad was a football coach. Like, a very rough, mean, nasty football coach. He almost beat up the neighbor one day because the neighbor yelled at us because we used to play tennis ball, baseball in the street in a home run was like when it hit the roof on people's house. So we were like hitting the dude's roof and he came out and yelled at us. My buddy's dad almost beat him up. He was like this really tough football coach. The little brother was gay. The little brother, as far back as I can remember, was gay, bro. I don't think that little brother, like, just set out in his heart to like, deny God. Right.

David (36:33)

Well, I, I also asked him, and I think anybody who listens to this episode, when it does come out, I asked him, like, where is the place for the people that have suffered, you know, at the hands of somebody else? Because there's, there's a certain trauma that's passed on. This is what we talk about on nds, and this is a big deal.

Matt (36:49)

See, this is something that's not really my wheelhouse, but. Yeah, this is a great point.

David (36:53)

Yeah. And it's, it's horrific.

Matt (36:54)

Right.

David (36:55)

It's like a lot of this stuff and it's not 100. Some people I do know, I'm like, you know, ever since they were little, I'm like, yeah, but I don't know what happened to that kid. So we just, we just give up on them. Like, that's it. Something happened to him when they were young and, like, you're done. You're condemned to hell. And then he'll also go on and say that he doesn't agree with Calvinist disposition of, like, predetermination.

Matt (37:17)

Yeah, that was kind of nice. You're a Calvinist. That was kind of intriguing for you to say that way because it kind of was like that.

David (37:22)

Yeah. Yeah. See, now if. I don't know, if I, If I approach it differently and I'm hostile, I can't make some sort of. Like, these are sneaky points.

Matt (37:32)

Yeah. That he's entitled to have.

David (37:34)

Yeah. And as a matter of fact, I really do appreciate somebody coming on, even though I think a lot of it was just like, shock and awe.

Matt (37:41)

Yeah.

David (37:41)

It's not going to work on me because I've already done said that, but I do appreciate that somebody's doing that. I appreciate that. There's a pastor. I know it sounds crazy that is that far. Because I understand the need for it and I understand why they feel like they had to go that far if.

Matt (37:57)

It'S forcing people to look into it. It's like when Trump's like, they're eating the dogs and ca. You know, and then it's like people are like, well wait, are they?

David (38:03)

Yeah, exactly. But, oh, there's actually a lot of stuff going on. Yeah.

Matt (38:06)

So like I think it's fair and that the church, again, like the professing church in America has gone so far over here it all. It almost automatically is gonna bring out a guy that's so far over here almost is automatically going to happen. But that's why we stay on the straight gate in the narrow path and just stay grounded in the word of God and don't let the society or the fake church affect us and affect our doctrine and make a new doctrine. A lot of times wild ass doctrines come about in response to somebody else's doctrine. Like, like for example today people will say crazy stuff. They'll be like, God told me and they'll just name some crazy thing. Well, like in the so called charismatic movement and enough people saw that enough times to develop a doctrine that God doesn't speak to people. Today you get like hardcore reform. People are like, God doesn't speak to people today other than through his word. That's it. He no longer speaks to you through your spirit. What is that? That's just a response to like people saying crazy stuff, saying they had this vision, saying they were in the throne room, saying they this happened and that happened and God told them this. And so in response to that they make a doctrine that says no, God doesn't speak to anybody. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Take all that, put it to the side and just stay grounded in the word of God. Back to this homosexual thing. Remember I think I brought it up in the show too. Like there was a dude who was here who was like raised in church as a kid and then started practicing homosexuality and then was in the Pulse nightclub shooting and then realized that he was living in sin and realized that he loved the Lord and it was against his Lord and he repented of that lifestyle and and is is born again. So like that's my take, is that that's possible. Romans 1 is not applied to like an individual. It's applied to mankind. It's applied to a society as a whole that this is where some of this stuff comes from.

David (39:49)

Oh, that's an. Okay, I understand exactly what you're saying now. It's like a blanket term of this is a blanket curse that this will afflict you.

Matt (39:55)

Yeah. Like if your society starts to believe in Darwin theory of evolution and you deny God as the creator, watch for a spike in men with men and women with women after that in Your society.

David (40:04)

So the first time we had Ed Mabry on, we were talking about God's speed of light. And I think this is an interesting episode. You should probably watch it because the theory is interesting scientifically. The speed of light is slowed down throughout. Throughout the millennia, and they've proven this somehow or other. And Ed's theory was that, well, if God is light, like, if he is the. If he's the light that lights up the world. I don't know. I'm not saying he's the sun, but if this makes any sense to you, and he's drawing further away from us, like, we have the fall where we're kicked out the garden. We have the. The antediluvian period after the Flood, right. We have the. The kings, the judgment. We. We killed his son, so on and so forth. And then we. Then we continue. And he's like, in each one of these instances, it seems like the speed of light has slowed down because it's like. It is. It's almost like a principle where it's like, okay, you've chosen, and then. And then God maybe goes, okay, that's your. That's what you're choosing. So I don't know if He's. Is God getting further from us or are our consequences making you feel that way? Does this.

Matt (41:09)

Yeah, it's a good thought. It's a good thing to think through, because that's what.

David (41:12)

That's the argument that we're making here with Romans, then, where it's like, if this is the consequence of doing these things, God is almost like he's going to let you over to a reprobate mind. So he's, like, gonna step away. Yeah, in a sense.

Matt (41:25)

Yeah. So let's. So let's see how Paul dealt with this in the Corinthian Church. We're back to 1 Corinthians 5 again. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you. Like fornication is sex outside the marriage covenant. Okay. Sexual perversion, if you will. Anything outside the marriage covenant is sexual perversion. It's reported commonly that there's fornication among you. And such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles. That one should have his father's wife and you are puffed up and have not rather mourned that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I, verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already as though I were present concerning him that had so done this Deed in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you're gathered together in my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Do you hear what he's saying in verse 2? He says that he's. That he be taken away. In verse five, he says, to deliver such a one unto Satan, to deliver such a one into Satan is to put him out of the church. Because Satan, as we talked about last week, is the God of this world. Like, we're not under the authority of the God of this world, as we're under this umbrella of Christ, which is the body of Christ, of which he is the head, as we're part of his body, as we're part of the church, we're not part of the world. We're not under the authority of Satan. We're not delivered into Satan. He's saying, take him out. Remove him from the body to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh. As if to say, let the world and Satan beat him up a little while till he. Till he figures this out. I know it sounds crazy. This is my take on this. If you. If you view it different, that's okay. And we're cool. But this is totally my take. He's saying remove him from the church. And he's also saying to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his flesh may be chastised, if you will, that he'll live outside the covenant of God and that he'll see what happens and that hopefully this will have the right effect on him. But if we let him stay in the church in this form, we're going to kill him. He's going to die like this. He's going to think he's okay and he's not.

David (43:32)

This is the story of the prodigal son, right? You kind of have to let them go experience in order for them to come back in a meaningful way.

Matt (43:37)

Yeah, you could say that. You could say that. Some people, like, some people I talk to, they're like, their kids are not walking with God. And I'm always like, yeah, yeah, let the world beat them up for a while. Let them go through the trials and tribulations of life until it beats them down to a point where they're like, dude, I know what the solution is here. I'm just not doing it.

David (43:54)

I think that's the tough role as a parent. I'm A new, new seven year parent. But it's like you got to let them get burned, but you don't want them to be maimed, right?

Matt (44:03)

Sure. I just trust God with it. You know what I'm saying? But yeah, you're right. There is this balance as a parent of like, yeah, because Jess used to get mad. She's like, they're crawling around on the jungle gym and they're, you know, I'm like, yeah, that's how they learn. She's like, by breaking a leg. You know, she would kind of be like that. I'd be like, yeah, just let them figure it out. Yeah, maybe they break a leg. Like when I was a kid, kids were always in cast and stuff. Like, it's just, you know what I'm saying? You sign the cast. Like you never see the kids with a cast anymore. Because parents like, no, no, don't let them do this, don't let them do that. I'm not saying there's not a danger in falling off the thing, but there's a danger in not falling off the thing. Just like parents are like, no, I won't let my kids walk to school because they might get kidnapped. Sure, there's a danger in letting your kid walk to school. There's also a danger in not letting them walk to school. And they never find their way in life. Do you see what I'm saying?

David (44:46)

Yeah.

Matt (44:47)

So there is like this balance. But in this case, Paul says, get him out of the church. Let Satan chastise him. Now let's just see how this unfolds. Let's see how it unfolds. He says to deliver such a one into Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Ultimately, that's the goal. Your glorying is not good. Remember, they're puffed up. They're saying, yeah, look how tolerant we are. Yeah, your glorying is not good. Know you not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Now we're getting down to the crux of it. Now we're getting down to the crux of it. If you allow that in the church, that disease is going to spread. That's contagious. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. You know, people say all sins are the same. Paul's saying right here, all sins are not the same. Get that sexual perversion out of the church. It definitely can't be in leadership, but it can't even be in the church. It will spread. All sins aren't the same.

David (45:37)

I was talking, I was talking with my, my wife about this idea of the homosexuality being like this weird taboo sin that it's like can't turn away from or you can't deny if you are gay. And, and she's like, yeah, this is harder than like, than other ones. Like, I don't know, drug use for instance. I was like, why is it harder? It's still a flesh thing. He's like, yeah, but it's this weird built in sexual desire that also goes with our mechanism for reproduction. It's a crazy one because it's, it's deeply rooted. Drugs are pretty deeply rooted, but it's still a surf, a surface kind of vice. Whereas sex is, that's the thing that I think everybody deep down that that's probably the, the hardest thing for people to shake.

Matt (46:22)

Yeah. That people argue with me out here and they say, can you imagine never having sex again? Then you're saying you can't be a Christian and practice homosexual activity. Like I'm saying you must be born again. Yeah. So the only thing I have to compare it to is who I was before I was born again. That's all I got. Well, no matter what, I had to be born again. No matter what my sin life was before. The solution is the same for everybody. You must be born again. And so sure, that's a hard one, but I think that's a problem because we have a lot of people in church that aren't born again. So if they're a homosexual, then people are like, oh look, look at that sin. We know that they're living in sin, but people have all kinds of other sins that we're just okay with. And these people aren't born again. You see what I'm saying? But the solution for everybody is you must be born again. Death to the old self. Like that. That is the only solution. The only solution God has is execution of the old man. That's it doesn't matter if you're a homosexual, doesn't matter if you're in drugs, doesn't matter if you're a goody two shoes. That's why it's harder for goody two shoes a lot of times to get converted because they're already a goody two shoes and then go to church and fit in without being born again. Yeah, but the solution for all of it is you must be born again. Okay, we're going to run through these passages to see what the scripture says. So verse seven, purge out therefore the old leaven that you may Be a new lump as you are unleavened. For even Christ, our Passover is sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast not with old leaven, neither with leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote unto you an epistle not to company with fornicators. Now we're getting to it. Let not yet. Not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous or executioners, or with idolaters, or sorry or extortioners, or with idolaters. For then must you needs go out of the world. Paul's saying all those things are in the world. We know those things are in the world. He's. But what he's saying here is, it's none of our business. Our business is what's going on in the church. You see that in the church. It has to go. You see it in the world. No kidding. It's the lost world that doesn't know God. Like, that's what happens. Boys start humping boys, girls start humping girls. Like that's what goes on out there. But in the church, we can't have that. But now I've written unto you not to keep company. If a man that is called a brother, the man in the church that's called a brother is a fornicator or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such a one, no. Not to eat, not to fellowship with. For what have I to do? To judge them that are without, to judge the world. Do not you judge them that are within. That's our real job. But them that are without, God judges. Therefore, put away from among yourselves that wicked person. All right, now we have to. You. You say, okay, so what happened to this guy, man? They threw him out of the church. They delivered on him to Satan. Well, look at Paul's second letter to the Corinthians. Just to give this some context here. It's going to go quick from here because I know we got to get on with the guy. Albarino, let's go.

David (49:14)

This guy's, so excited. This is a 2 Corinthians 2:4.

Matt (49:17)

2 Corinthians 2:4 through 11. Okay, can I. Yeah, but I just want to go quick because I know everybody's, like, ready to go.

David (49:27)

All the people are excited. When he says. When he says that they need to go out into the world. Do you. So do you think at this time period was the. Was the church A place or whatever. This. You'd like to call this, this body, this is a place that people wanted to get back into, because even if they were out in the world, he's. He's almost negotiating from a point of power where they're like, all right, you're. You're outside of this body, this community, and people will want to come back in. But I feel like it's. It's the inverse in, in today's society.

Matt (50:03)

Paul wants them to come back in. No, go ahead, say what you're saying.

David (50:06)

Yeah, no, they. He wants them to come back in. But I feel like there is also this desire of, of the place that is the church, the body, that is the church, the community that they, they will actually want back in.

Matt (50:18)

Yeah. Whereas nowadays especially want you to accept them the way they are in their sin. That's a big thing. Like, that's a big thing. If you talk to people, they, they want to. They almost demand that you allow them back in the church because everything's okay and they want to continue living in their lifestyle and be told that it's okay. And the church has been all too willing to satisfy that because that way they get. The more people, they get the money, the church is packed. And again, we come back to like, okay, what is the goal of the church? Yeah, what is the goal of the church? Like, success by numbers, I'm saying, which. That was the thing we agreed with the dude on last week. Like, he brought up that point. That was a great point. Like, if you're just trying to bring people in for the numbers, like, what is the success of the church?

David (50:57)

Yeah, the success of the church is this like the strong knit community. I think it needs to be sold. Like, it needs to be able to sell itself that people want to go to it. And I don't feel like that's the case now and not. Not just go to the show, but I mean, like, be a part of the community. You know what I'm saying?

Matt (51:14)

Yeah. Like today it's just part of some show and you're like a nice person in America and probably a good person to do business with this connections.

David (51:23)

If I get kicked out or so what if they push me out? Like, I, I have no desire to go back. I'm gonna go do this and join a community that's more appealing elsewhere. But if the church is actually offering something of value while I'm being chewed up out there, I'm. I'm gonna look at this thing and want to be back apart, back part of It. I feel like that's a big part of what. What's going on here. Like, did.

Matt (51:44)

Let's watch this story unfold because you're talking about what's about to happen. Did you read ahead in the notes?

David (51:49)

Maybe.

Matt (51:50)

Okay. 2 Corinthians 2, 4, 11. For out of much affliction and anguish of heart, I wrote unto you with many tears. This is Paul talking to the Corinthians in the second Corinthian letter. About the first Corinthian letter. Out of much affliction and anguish of heart, I wrote on you with many tears. Not that you should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. Like he has to punish them like a father punishes a child. And he has to make sure they understand that's the context. But if any have caused grief, he hasn't grieved me, but in part that I may not overcharge you all. I'm good. He's saying I'm good. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment which was inflicted of many. This is him talking about the guy that they kicked out of the church. This is what happened next. They kicked him out, he says, sufficient to such a man is the punishment which was inflicted of many. So that contrary wise, you ought rather to forgive him and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with over much sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that you would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write that I might know the proof of you whether you be obedient in all things. Like I told you the first time, to throw them out. Now I'm telling you to receive them to whom if you forgive anything, I forgive also. For if I forgave anything, to whom I forgave it for your sakes, forgave I it in the person of Christ. Lest Satan should get an advantage of us, for we are not ignorant of his devices. He says, look, it did what it was intended to do, right? He delivered him over to Satan. He. He's out of the church. He's known his wrong. If we would have just let him stay here, he would have never known his wrong. He would have never repented, he would have never changed, and furthermore, it would have spread into the Church. Do you see the problem today? If you're not. If you're not confronting sin like this in the church, not only does that guy end up dying, he spreads death to everyone because the church just the Levit a little. Leaven leavens the whole lump. It's bad, dude. It blows the church up. It infiltrates everything. It's a sickness. It's a disease that's contagious, and it gets into everyone. This is how you deal with it? Get him out of the church. Okay, he's gone out of the church. He's repented now. Now receive him again. So he's saying the opposite. He's had sexual perversion. He's lived in sexual perversion. He's not past the point of repentance. Bring him back in. Bring him back in. Right.

David (54:07)

You need extreme discernment for this as well. Like, there's. There's a lot of cases. Lily Phillips being one of the latest. I know you don't know these people only.

Matt (54:16)

She sounds sweet, though.

David (54:17)

I mean, she's a lady that had sex with a thousand men in one night. And then she decided to get baptized. And, and, and there's a. There's a precedent for, like, when I.

Matt (54:25)

When I see that guys find these stories.

David (54:26)

Oh, it's everywhere. I mean, just open up your eyeballs and you'll see it. So she decided that she wants to leave this behind. She's going to get baptized. And the Christian community jumped down. And I'm sure that the pastor that we were just talking to would probably colder this or that. And I said, hey, you know, if they. If she wants to do that, I think she should be welcome back in. But discernment should also be used, because afterwards she says, you know, it's not the traditional baptism. Like, I still support everything that I did. I'm going to continue to do it.

Matt (54:55)

I know what this is. Then you said, this hoe just took a bath.

David (54:58)

Yeah. Yeah, you just took a bath.

Matt (55:00)

Now I'm.

David (55:00)

Now I'm casting. Now you got to go back out the church. Like, we have to have that ability to really understand when someone means it. But then that's difficult, too, because now. Now I'm reading into someone else's heart. I don't know if. If I can do that.

Matt (55:12)

Grounded in the scripture. Like, that's the leadership in a church. The apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, teachers, deacons. Like, this whole leadership body needs to be in union, in communion with one another, discussing the scriptures, praying to God, letting the Holy Spirit guide the church and letting him deal with it. But as long as it's just a business, then all that's foolishness and we're not going to get anywhere. So let's look at. Let's look at the biblical definition for marriage in Matthew 19. And it came to pass that when Jesus had finished these things, he departed from Galilee. We're in verse one. And came into the coast of Judea Beyond Jordan, verse 2. And great multitudes followed him, and he healed them there. The Pharisees also came unto him. These guys are always coming after him. But they came after him, tempting him, and saying unto him, is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, have you not read that? He which made them at the beginning made them male and female. Okay, that's. That's one thing. Made them male and female. And said, for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they too shall be one flesh. Notice, all through Scripture, you never see this context of like, for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his husband. Never. Like, it's taken for granted that everybody knows. Of course, that's not on the table. That's not even an option. Like, it's never ever said, you know, a man and his wife or a man and his husband. Never. That's never the context of the Scripture. It takes for granted that everybody understands God created part A to go inside part B. That's it. It gets very clear. Wherefore they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. So there we have a biblical definition for marriage, right? Marriage is a covenant between a man, a woman. Some people stop there. But biblically speaking, it's a covenant between a man, a woman, and God. Do you see what I'm saying? That's a biblical definition for marriage.

David (57:19)

This is a. David and I, when we're talking about this, like, spiritual iniquity or like, spiritual attack specifically, almost every time we hear the story, it's after a divorce. And that's not a promise in front of the state. That's a promise in front of God. Maybe people don't know that they're doing that, but they're doing that. Then they break that covenant, and then they're under attack. And they wonder why.

Matt (57:38)

This is. What's a really big deal? Covenant is a really big deal to God. And so his thing is, like, you want to partake of this really rad thing. You want to partake of this really rad thing that also includes, like, making other human lives. Yeah, no problem. You could be part of this really rad thing called sex. It'll be, like, one of the coolest things you ever do in your life. But it's between you. It's between a husband and a wife. Like, that's it. Anything outside of that is not okay to have sex. You and the wife, you guys can do whatever you want. You guys, like, there's nothing off limits. He's like, yeah, this is this really rad thing. You got a super hot wife, you do whatever you want with her. Like that. Yeah, go do it. He's like, right on. You guys will make babies. It'll be this really rad thing. But it must be within the covenant. And if you want to engage in sexual activity, you have to be in the covenant to do it. If you do it before you're in that covenant, you're disgracing the covenant. If you go outside your covenant to do it, you're disgracing the covenant. But he's a covenant keeping God. And that's why it's a big deal. And the sex thing is a big deal. And that's why it's, like the most mangled thing in society. That's why it's used in all, like, they say sex sells in the commercials and the shows and stuff. That's why it's so mangled. Definitions for what's okay for sex get mangled. God says, if you want to take part of this, you have to do it under the covenant. That's the rules. Whether you like it or not, that's the rules.

David (58:53)

It's funny that they call it orientation, right? Like sexual orientation. Like, which way are you aimed at? And it's like, orientation should be toward God all the time.

Matt (59:04)

Amen.

David (59:04)

So it's like. It's funny when you remove that and you kind of spin that like a.

Matt (59:07)

Clock and go rabbit trail. But sometimes you hear, like, the dumbest, corniest, like, Christian counseling on marriage. And it's the dumbest, dude. It's like, make sure you have date night with your wife. Make sure you talk to your wife in her love language. Make sure you talk to the husband in the love language. Make. And it's all so, like, the worst marriage is like, two people saying, what am I getting out of this? What am I getting out of this? That's the worst marriage. It's like, what am I getting? I want to make sure you're doing your part because I'm doing my part. I don't want to do more than 50%. I want to do 50, 50. What am I getting? That's the worst marriage. A little step up. But still bad is, oh, it's all about you. I want to make sure you're happy. I want to make. No, I want to make sure you're happy. No, I want to make sure you're happy. That because of the wickedness of our sin, that just leads to a disaster because this becomes fickle. What makes this person happy today? What makes them happy tomorrow? When is it enough? Then all of a sudden, you're going overboard and this person becomes dominant. Do more stuff for me. Oh, it's all about you. It's all about you. That's all madness and that filth and trash and garbage is in Christian counseling, even on TV all the time. Make sure you take your wife on date night. This is the secret to a good marriage. You want to secret to a good marriage. Focusing on God, like, that's it. That's it. As long as you're doing that focused on yourself or focused on the other person, good luck in that marriage, that's going to be a disaster. But if two people love the Lord and they're focused on God, like, here's the two people, and they're in a covenant between a man, a woman, and God. They're focused on God in this covenant, and then everything goes great in this marriage. Not to say they don't have fights and problems like everybody else. Of course they do. But, like, the thrust and the focus of their marriage is God, not their marriage. Like, not focusing on each other. Like, that's a bottomless pit, dude. Just because the way humans are made, it's never enough. Like, if you're just saying, what am I getting out of this? It'll never be enough. If you're saying, oh, I want to give to you so that you're happy, it'll never be enough. Like, the only way a Christian marriage is supposed to operate is with both parties focused on God. That's it. And that's, like, the simplest solution for Christian marriage. And I'm tired of, like, the trashy, just worldly like, church teachings on Christian marriage. It's usually just very stupid. Stupid, very stupid. Okay, so here's what he says. Wherefore they're no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man pull apart. They say unto him, why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement and to put her away? He saith, this is Jesus speaking back to the Pharisees now. He saith unto the Pharisees, Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, suffered you to put away your wives. He didn't command you to put away your wives from verse seven, but in verse eight, he suffered or allowed you to do it. So this is a wild thing. This is him saying God put something in the law that really wasn't his, his will. Isn't that wild that that's in the law? But it really wasn't God's will. He said, yeah, yeah, it wasn't intended to be that way. But he did allow for it in the law. He did allow for it.

David (62:06)

Well, isn't this the entire, the entirety of the law? It's like people struggling with a thing. They're begging for a hard and fast rule written in stone. So that way we know what is permissible and what is not. So they, if they're falling to the lust of the eye to someone else's wife, like, put them away, put a burqa on her so I can't look at her. And I, I sort of understand that inclination, but I think we've already covered it.

Matt (62:33)

But in Christianity, like, we know these passages, if any man looks upon a woman to lust, he's committed adultery in her own heart. The women in the culture of our kingdom, they do that without being told that the women in our kingdom don't dress sexy. They don't dress with tits and ass hanging out trying to get men to lust after them. Because that's not the culture of our kingdom. The culture of our kingdom is if any man looks upon a woman to lust, he's committed adultery. So not just the men are mindful, but the women are mindful too. But all these barriers and rules, those will not stop us from doing that. Only an internal changed heart will stop us from doing that.

David (63:04)

That's exactly, that's exactly what I'm getting to.

Matt (63:06)

He saith unto them, moses, because of the hardness of your heart suffered you to put away your wives. But from the beginning, it was not so like, as if to say, he knew you were going to disobey this, and he allowed for it because he knew it was going to be too hard of a command for you. So he allowed for it. And I say unto you, whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery, and whoso marries her which is put away does commit adultery. So this is the teaching on biblical marriage, divorce, and this concept of, like, fornication and adultery. Sex outside the covenant. Right. All right, mark 3, 20, 30. We're just going to keep unpacking this. This is the blasphemy of the Holy.

David (63:51)

Spirit, this is like the unforgivable sin.

Matt (63:54)

Which I saw this in the chat. That's what I'm saying, man. I love the way the chat was during that discussion was like, this dude was trying to biblically unpack that homosexuality was an unforgivable sin. The chat said, no, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. I was, like, so proud of the chat, dude. Our chat is biblically sound, bro. This is.

David (64:12)

This is a. I mean, without getting muddied into the waters of, you know, is homosexuality an unforgivable sin? Blasphemy. What it is. And in this. In this passage, defining what it is, being the unforgivable sin is fascinating enough on its own that I don't know, to expand it is just kind of ridiculous in my opinion. But, yeah, let's read it.

Matt (64:36)

Okay, so we're in. Mark 3, 20, 30 in, the multitude came together again so that they could not so much as eat bread. I got it.

David (64:47)

I was getting nervous, dude.

Matt (64:50)

I threw this. Verse 20 is kind of like a little bit before we get into the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but I just feel like people need to know this passage, message. And the multitude came together again, so they could not so much as eat bread. This was all the people following Christ. So many people coming to get. Like, they couldn't even stop to eat a meal. Like, that's what happened. Verse 21. And when his friends. That's Jesus friends, I love this passage. I love that this passage exists. Most people don't even know this passage exists, man. When Jesus friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him. For they said, he's beside himself.

David (65:22)

He's angry.

Matt (65:23)

No, he's gone mad. Jesus has lost his mind. That's the accusation of his friends. Oh, you didn't think he had friends? Yeah, he grew up in a town. He went to school. Maybe he played soccer. Like, he. He had a job. He's a carpenter. Yeah, he had friends. He grew up and he had friends. Those friends came out and said, what's going on, dude? Like, you're our guy. Like, we've always hung out. Like, now you're this big religious guru. Like, what's the. You've lost your mind. Do you know that passage is there? His friends went after him and said, you've lost your mind. And I just think most people aren't ready for that, dude. Like, most people. Like, you don't think if they came after our Lord like that and said, You've lost your mind. You're not ready for that in your Christian life. For people to say, we know how you used to live before. Look at. Look at you now. You're like this holy, righteous guy. You've lost your mind. If you're not ready for that, you're not ready for the kingdom of God, dude. Like, they did it to our Lord. They're going to do it to us. If you haven't experienced this, you just don't know what it's like yet. You're gonna get it. Like, if you walk this out.

David (66:22)

My childhood friends say this about me doing a podcast, and I'm like, I'm not even doing anything crazy.

Matt (66:27)

Yeah, you're gonna get people that come to you and they're like, bro, you've lost your mind, dude.

David (66:30)

Yeah, like.

Matt (66:31)

Like, look at. You're so serious and righteous and holy now. Like, who are you? So get ready for that. If you're gonna walk with God, get ready for that. In the scribes which came down from Jerusalem, said he at Beelzebub by the prince of the devils cast the out devils. And he called them unto him and said unto them in parables, how can Satan cast out Satan?

David (66:49)

Okay, I brought this up to. Sorry to pause you again. I know. This is why we still want to.

Matt (66:54)

Go long and then we're like, late on Albarino.

David (66:56)

We're not going to be late on. Don't worry about him. Listen, he's my guy, dude. This was the specific verse that I brought up to the pastor when he was talking about second Thessalonian. Because he was adamant.

Matt (67:06)

I see you, Emma. You ain't wrong.

David (67:09)

He was adamant that.

Matt (67:10)

I'm not gonna keep you in chat. I shouldn't be doing that.

David (67:12)

Satan was withholding himself, right? And I'm like. It cleared, like, Jesus's words, right?

Matt (67:18)

You're with Alvarino on that. It's got to be the Archangel Michael. That's the one withholding.

David (67:22)

It's gotta. Well, I mean, we can't get into it today. It's either Archangel Michael. It's either the government or the, like, the entire system itself.

Matt (67:32)

Okay. Or you were making the point. Like, bro, you're saying Satan's restraining himself. Come on. That doesn't make sense.

David (67:37)

Yeah, I just said it doesn't make any sense. But what.

Matt (67:40)

Yeah, that's all right. So he called on them instead of them in parables. How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself and be divided, he cannot stand, but have an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man and then he will spoil his house. He's saying, like, dude, the strong man. He says, no, man, that's Jesus. The man can enter into a strong man's house, that's a human, and spoil his goods. I'd say that's the human heart. The strong man that's in that house, I think in this context, is a demon. So Jesus is going to enter in to the strong man's house, which is the human with a demon inside it, that's a strong man holding that house now, and spoil his goods. That's the human heart Jesus is going to get and do that. Except he will first bind the strong man and then he will spoil his house. So Jesus will bind that demon and then. And then spoil his house, which is like, capture that human heart. This is just a rad way that he. That he paints this picture. But he's saying, like, how crazy would it be if Satan's doing that to his own demons?

David (68:52)

Yeah.

Matt (68:53)

Verily I say in you, all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men and blasphemies, where whatsoever they shall blaspheme. But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost shall. Shall hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation because they said he has an unclean spirit. So that's the context. The way the Holy Spirit was operational, they saw that and they accused the Holy Spirit of being the devil. He said, that's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. To unpack that a little more is like, there, you know, he says that you could blaspheme the Son of Man and be forgiven, but if you blast him, the Holy Spirit, you can't. There were people in that day, I'm sure, who blasphemed Jesus all the way to the cross and then later realized he was the Messiah and repented and turned to God. Now, the point that he's trying to make is, like, if you don't repent to the Holy Spirit, like, you don't have another opportunity like this. Like, this is your last chance with the Holy Spirit. Don't assume that there's, like, purgatory or you're going to be able to come out of hell or by indulgences, somebody's going to be able to buy you out of hell or purgatory or anything like that. If you blast him, the Holy Spirit, that's it. There's no redo. There's no reset button. This is your only chance.

David (70:02)

It does say that they are in danger of eternal damnation. So they're not eternally damned, but you're in danger.

Matt (70:11)

He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. Okay, I see what you're saying.

David (70:19)

Yeah. I don't. I don't know. I don't know if that's.

Matt (70:21)

Well, we need to pull it up in another. Probably in Matthew, then I. If we want to. What is it? What's the other passage that talks about.

David (70:27)

Maybe 1929 more clear?

Matt (70:28)

Yeah, it's saying that, like. No, no, no. That's not. No, I'm talking about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

David (70:35)

That's a.

Matt (70:36)

That's a different passage. But, yeah, it makes it clear. Like, you can't do that. And then there is an unforgivable sentence. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. He's not saying, like, you're in danger of it. Like, you might not. He's saying, no, no, like you're in danger of it. That's it. It's. It's this unforgivable thing to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. There's no debate over that. Maybe Matthew makes a little bit clearer. Yeah. Matthew 12:31. Wherefore I say in you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men. But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him. But whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. So, I don't know, maybe you're saying there's a chance. I'm saying there's not. I'm saying there's definitely not a chance.

David (71:19)

And they probably don't mess around with it.

Matt (71:21)

I'm gonna read what G. Campbell Morgan says about this. Actually, I got it on my phone. G. Campbell Morgan, a renowned British evangelist and Bible teacher, interpreted the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not as a single accidental act, but as a deliberate, final state of the heart that makes forgiveness impossible by rejecting the only means of salvation. I just thought he could say it so much better than me.

David (71:43)

A deliberate, final state of the heart.

Matt (71:46)

Yeah. He's saying. It's not like this one Time thing that you accidentally do.

David (71:50)

Do you think that homosexuality is a blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Is that a deliberate final state?

Matt (71:58)

No, no. We're gonna. I'm gonna get to that, though. I'm gonna get to that. We only have one passage left. And. Hold on, let me read everything G. Kimmel Morgan said, because I know there's a lot of stuff about this that people are curious, and I just think G. Kimmel Morgan lays it down clearly, interpreted the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not as a single accidental act, but as a deliberate final state of the heart that makes forgiveness impossible by rejecting the only means of salvation. His teaching on the subject emphasized several key points. The definition of the sin. Morgan viewed the unpardonable sin as the willful and persistent rejection of the Holy Spirit's testimony regarding Jesus Christ. He specifically highlighted it as the act of witnessing the manifest power of God and deliberately attributing that work to the devil, as the Pharisees did in Matthew 12. You know, the same thing in Mark as well. He taught that because it is the unique role of the Holy Spirit to convict individuals of sin and lead them to Christ, to blaspheme or fully reject the Spirit is to shut the only door through which a person can be brought to repentance. That's another reason we say we're not under the law. What the. What the law was doing. The Holy Spirit does that now. So it's disrespectful to the Holy Spirit to say, no, the law does the job that you're supposed to be doing now. He taught that because it is the unique role of the Holy Spirit to convict individuals of sin. That was the job of the law, was to convict you of sin. You're never right by it. It was supposed to convict you and show you that you were out, that you were in sin. Well, the Holy Spirit does that now because it is a unique role, the Holy Spirit, to convict individuals of sin and lead them to Christ to blaspheme or fully reject the Spirit is to shut the only door through which a person can be brought to repentance. Morgan argued that this sin is unforgivable. Be unforgivable because the individual has reached a state of permanent hardening. In this state, the person no longer feels the need for repentance. Therefore, forgiveness cannot be applied. A hallmark of Morgan's teaching, shared by many in his tradition, was that if a person is worried they have committed the unpardonable sin. That very anxiety is evidence they have not committed it.

David (74:00)

I know this is pre. This is going to be pre Holy Spirit on the world. But Saul seemed to have this affliction where God was just like, yeah, he's done. There's really nothing he can do. Is this the same condition you think that he's talking about?

Matt (74:15)

Seems that way, yeah. It seems like he got to a point of rejecting God. Not boning other dudes, but rejecting God. He got to a certain point. And that's why, like, initially when the guy said this, I let him. I let him cook. Because, like, there is these passages like, God pulls Israel out of Egypt, takes him in the wilderness, and then he says, yeah, they're past the point of repentance. They're not going in the Promised land. They're all going to die. I'm not sending revival. I'm not going to reform them. They're past the point of repentance. That generation, except for Caleb and Joshua, is not going into the Promised Land. So that. So that's not unheard of. Pharaoh is what was unheard of to me was that because a boy is with a boy or a girl's with a girl, that they're past the point of repentance. That's. That's the only. That's the only thing we're talking about.

David (74:57)

Condition of the heart, which I don't think we could really judge.

Matt (75:01)

Yeah. A heart that has truly committed this sin would be indifferent or hostile to God, not concerned with its spiritual standing. Right. So that's anybody who's, like, worried that they've committed the unpardonable sin, and they blaspheme the Holy Spirit. J.K. morgan would say, relax. A hallmark of Morgan's teaching was that if a person is worried they have committed the unpardonable sin, that very anxiety is evidence they have not committed it. A heart that has truly committed this sin would be indifferent or hostile to God, not concerned with its spiritual standing. He distinguished this from blasphemy against the Son of Man, which could be committed in ignorance and later forgiven, and from temporary lapses or denials of faith, such as Peter's denial, which are pardonable through repentance. So, anyway, I think G. Campbell Morgan lays it down. And I know in the chat before they've asked, like, who I read and who I really like, G. Campbell Morgan's, like, the top of the list. Everybody in the back in the library when you guys come here for Bro Grove, you can check it all out. There's, like, tons of good authors back there. But G. Campbell Morgan's at the top of the list now. Okay. We've just set up this whole thing. We've set up this whole thing to specifically bring it to 1 Corinthians 6, 9 through 11, which. The dude Nate. I don't think I really know the dude Nate. I don't know if I've communicated with Nate, but this was like this lovely thing in the chat was Nate brought this passage up. Dude, we didn't even have to bring it up. As far as I'm concerned, with everything we've laid down so far. The 1 Corinthians 5, we can't have sexual perversion in the church. Dudes can't bone their dad's wife and still be in the church. We gotta throw them out. But once they get thrown out and they've repented, we can bring them back. In the Romans, one passage talks about denying God as the Creator, that all of a sudden that leads in society to an explosion of men with men and women with women. The whole thing about the biblical definition of marriage, the whole thing about bringing the guy back into the church. The whole thing about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This is the very end right here. 1 Corinthians 6, 9, 11. Do you know the dude Nate?

David (76:57)

Nate Higgers.

Matt (76:59)

I don't know.

David (77:00)

Yeah, I've seen him in the chat before.

Matt (77:02)

Wait, can we do this? Because sometimes in the King James, it's hard to understand what the words are. Maybe can we do Blue Letter Bible and just do it like the new living translation or something?

David (77:10)

Yeah. So what is this? First Corinthians 6, 9, 11, right?

Matt (77:14)

Yeah. 1 Corinthians 6, starting in verse 9.

David (77:19)

All right, just give me one second. Sorry.

Matt (77:24)

Papa Steez knows about G. Campbell Morgan.

David (77:30)

Oh, they'd be knowing the chappie, knowing the chat.

Matt (77:32)

I love the chat, dude. I'm honored to be in the fight with the chat dude. Like, this is a cool family that we have now. Even though, like, initially, my thing is, like, these must be crazy people. Just from knowing you and the Raven, I'm like, if they're NDS fans, they must be crazy people. And then really, I'm like, wow, dude, these dudes are solid, man.

David (77:49)

You said you wanted NLV or niv.

Matt (77:52)

No, like nlt. We could probably read it in a couple of them.

David (77:55)

Okay.

Matt (77:55)

All right, let's see. Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin or who worship idols or commit Adultery. Or are male prostitutes or practice homosexuality. Oh, okay, I guess they're out. Or are thieves or greedy people or drunkards or are abusive or cheat people. None of these will inherit the kingdom of God. So the guy says, yeah, there you go. Homosexuality. They won't inherit the kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed. You were made holy. You were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ by the spirit of God. That passage right there proves it for once and for all. That is not a sin that you are separated from God forever. Because it says it right there. Homosexuality. Some of you were once like that. That's what that passage says. The dude Nate brought it up, man. I love the guy Nate. I don't even know him. Hopefully he comes to Bro Grove and we can meet him and hang out with him. But he brought this passage up and pinpointed this like, he knew it. He knew to go to this passage and say, no, what the dude's saying is wrong. What he's saying is wrong. Because the scripture blatantly says that there's homosexuality. Where are you at here?

David (79:12)

This is. I put it on the NIV just to check out a different translation.

Matt (79:15)

So. Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. That's all of us, though. That's the beautiful thing about this passage. No wrongdoers will inherit the kingdom of God. I don't care how your definition is. We've all been wrongdoers at some point. Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed. So you were men who had sex with men, but you were washed. You were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God, bro. It says it right there. Like, to me, there's no debate on that topic, man. Now, we're not saying, like, we're pro homosexuality in the church. We've laid it down clearly that, like, sexual perversion has to be thrown out of the church, man. Biblical definition for marriage is a man with a woman and God. That's a. That's a marriage covenant. We're very plain on this. Like, it's. You can't allow that in the church. You definitely can't have a preacher living in open, defiant sin to God. All that's heinous. And that's what gives rise to preachers like our boy that came on last week. Like, that's what gives rise to that is the pendulum swings so far the other way.

David (80:31)

Also, what that guy. What that guy's missing is like, because again, that's why I'm. I try to, like, be a little understanding of where they're at, because I understand the political spectrum and how they've swung so far. But it's. It's not up to him to. To make this judgment. Like, I. I also brought up the idea of, like, well, who's going to do this? That you're talking about the government. The same government that's, you know, hiding the Epstein files. And there was, again, not a satisfactory answer. But Paul. Paul said that we should kick them out of the church and let Satan tear them up. And then you invite them back if.

Matt (81:06)

If they've repented.

David (81:07)

If. Yeah, if they've repented. But what this guy's doing is beating them up. And I'm like. I told him we made a joke toward the end as well. I said, you know, maybe take it easy on the Fs, right? Like, but I'm being serious. Like, hey, it's not. I don't think it's our job to beat them.

Matt (81:22)

Another thing that I'm, like, super hyper aware of now, bro. And again, I think I was talking about this like, I'm in the long game, dude. I like anybody who's close to me or a loved one of mine. This is a major emphasis that I place for anybody who is close to me. We're in the long game, dude. We're not in the game for snippets on the shorts. We're not in the game for, like, a bunch of views right now. I'm, like, really aware sometimes of some of the things that, like, you guys send me or just some of the discussions that I'm, like, involved in now. Like, people are so wanting content. Like, I don't know, I feel bad maybe this dude. Like, that's like, good content. Like, that's content that's going to get him a lot of views. And I'm just like, I don't know, just like, be careful with that. It 100 is just be careful because I get it. You're just shocking. All value. You're going to get more viewers. And if that's your goal, just be careful. If that's your goal.

David (82:10)

The past the other Pastor that he's running in the circles with is very much doing the same thing. They're explosive. They're doing this weird dynamic thing where they're pushing buttons. And I get it because I've done it before. When you're doing this in the name of God, be careful. And especially, like, the. The difference that I. Main difference that I have with him was the supernatural. And I think that that's a testament to where. Like, where the conversation went with the guy. Like, he's. He's completely ignoring the supernatural of the Bible, of what I think it clearly says there. And then down the line, you're kind of denying the supernatural ability of Jesus Christ forgiveness, and. And to be able to bring people back into the fold. So it's not a surprise that it's like one plus one. You know what I'm saying?

Matt (82:53)

You're saying if you start to deny the supernatural work of God. Yeah.

David (82:56)

You'll deny it, follow it to its logical conclusion. You end up here. I like the guy. I like. I like him. I think he's. I think he's a dude that, you know, in this space that we might need.

Matt (83:10)

And then we're not even really talking about, you know, his denial of Nephilim. Like, that's not even what this was about today because, like, I thought that was gonna be the main thing of the discussion. It turned into something way crazier, like, way bigger.

David (83:21)

Yeah.

Matt (83:21)

And, like, I'm careful with that discussion because great men of God that I know and read from the back denied that that Nephilim was fallen angels with. With humans. Now, I don't know if in that time period, these guys were Maybe from the 1800s or early 1900s, maybe they just didn't have enough information to unpack that. I mean, they had the word of God, but for whatever reason they kind of had, they kind of didn't see it. So I'm like, careful with that, and I'm just careful with people I disagree with. Dude. I don't want to rush into these things with people and automatically debate them and fight them and be like, no, my views are right, your views are wrong. I want to hear them out. And I think that's good for all of us. That's how you're going to grow. Like, if you want to be serious about the kingdom of God, you got to hear people out that you disagree with. Let them unpack it from Scripture. And then you go unpack it from scripture after you hear their unpacking.

David (84:12)

It.