The 501c3 System w/ Zack Killey of Salty Saints Podcast

Summary

Podcast Summary: Nephilim Death Squad Biblical Conspiracy

Episode: The 501c3 System w/ Zack Killey of Salty Saints Podcast
Hosts: TopLobsta (Mr. Nasty), David Lee Corbo (The Raven), Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)
Guest: Zack Killey (Salty Saints Podcast)
Date: January 12, 2026

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth discussion about the “501c3 system” within American Christianity and its impact on church structure, culture, and mission. Guest Zack Killey—a pastor, barber, and former host of Salty Saints Podcast—joins TopLobsta, Raven, and Matthew Hefner for a lively and at times irreverent exploration of how modern churches have drifted from the Biblical model, the pitfalls of church institutionalization, and the enduring power and requirement of the Great Commission. The group grapples with questions of authenticity, commercialization, discipleship, and the future of church in the West, all through a frank, candid, and conspiratorial lens.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Zack Killey & Salty Saints (02:09–04:18)

• Zack reveals his background as both a pastor and barber, describes the origin and temporary pause of his podcast Salty Saints, and the confusion with other similarly named channels.
• The hosts acknowledge his prior appearance on their shows and encouragement to revive his podcast.

2. Shifting From 501c3 to The Great Commission (04:44–05:37)

• Zack asserts that while 501c3 church status is relevant, he believes the core issue is the neglect of the Great Commission:

  "The heartbeat of this thing is the Great Commission ... it's one of the last things Jesus said to us before he left." (Zack, 04:44)

3. Why Church Structures Are Flawed (06:05–13:55)

• Zack admires the podcast’s willingness to discuss conspiracies biblically and praises the crew for being real instead of polished.

• He expresses concerns about the shift from church as spiritual family to church as business, where metrics become “butts, bucks, bricks, and baptisms”:

  "We've kind of changed the scorecard ... Today the scorecard in the church is butts, bucks, bricks and baptisms ... and that is a far cry from what Jesus set up." (Zack, 11:39)

• The group links the church’s deviations to powers and principalities (Ephesians 6), emphasizing that real combat is spiritual:

  "Our fight isn’t with flesh and bone, but with powers [...] in the spiritual realm." (Raven, 15:28)

4. The Tension of Technique vs. Authenticity in Church (16:24–36:50)

• Raven voices discomfort with certain church practices (e.g., congregational repetition, touch) aligning with psychological “anchoring” or mass hypnosis.

• Zack acknowledges there is legitimate value in preparing hearts for Scripture but warns against non-biblical methods creeping into church culture (personality tests, love languages, etc.):

  "There's a lot of that, but I don't think it's malicious. I think it's from ignorance a lot of the time." (Zack, 24:40)

• Matthew stresses:

  "We get our identity from God. We don't get it from the world." (24:20)

• The hosts reflect on manipulative church sales or performance techniques—acknowledging they work but questioning their integrity.

5. Worship as Performance or True Spirituality? (30:48–36:50)

• Debate over stadium worship events led by “celebrity” worship leaders like Brandon Lake and whether large-scale events are genuine or merely theatrics.
• Zack cites Amos 5:21–23 to caution against empty ritual when hearts are not aligned.

6. Should the Institutional Church Be Torn Down? (37:44–40:29)

• Matthew cites Jeremiah 1:10 to argue that the church “system” will be torn down (“root out ... throw down ... build and ... plant”) and rebuilt.
• The group agrees there must be real, heartfelt reform—even if institutional forms persist.

7. Biblical Model vs. Modern Practice: What Did Jesus Actually Set Up? (40:53–54:48)

• Zack leads reading of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16–20), reinforcing the command is to all followers—not just clergy.
• Key insight: All are “royal priests” and called to make disciples, baptize, and teach (48:11).
• The model is not “bring to church and let the pastor do it,” but “every disciple makes disciples.”

“You don't have to be a pastor. We're in this model right now where the whole deal is, 'Come and see, let me bring you here so my pastor can teach you about Jesus.' It's like, no ... it should be a sending model.” (Zack, 54:48)

8. Discipleship—and the Failure of Scale (57:15–61:52)

• Real discipleship is one-on-one or small group, “painstaking” and slow, not scalable to the mass-audience model.
• Teaching ≠ discipleship; being taught by a pastor in a group is not being discipled.

“Discipleship intrinsically needs the ability to bounce questions back. It's conversational.” (Zack, 60:27)

9. The Problem of the 501c3 System and Tithing (63:47–68:28)

• Tithing is critiqued—Zack notes the tithe is Old Testament; New Testament focus is generosity (65:01).
• Church as production (lights, stages, staffing) is called into question; Zack references Martin Luther on God’s remnant working within impure systems, but emphasizes critical reassessment is needed.

10. Five Mission Drifts in Discipleship (82:21–101:30)

Drawing from Jesse Cruikshank and others, Zack identifies pivotal “drifts” away from the original Jesus-movement:

• Constantine: Professionalization of clergy/priest class and standardized buildings.
• Enlightenment: Rationalizing/ intellectualizing faith, church as information-transfer.
• Reformation: Sermon becomes center, pastor the new celebrity.
• Industrial Revolution: Systematization—treating all as identical, “one size fits all.”
• Evangelicalism: Over-personalization and individualism, neglect of community.

“Everyone is treated like a sheep that is to learn, not even to learn—to memorize.” (Zack, 100:49)

11. True Biblical Community and Mutual Accountability (109:58–118:03)

• The Bible exhorts confession, sharing burdens, patient community, mutual encouragement, and every-member ministry (James 5, Galatians 6, Romans 15, etc.).
• One-pastor systems are seen as unbiblical (“Paul told Titus: ordain elders, plural”), and several elders/leaders is the standard.
• Church should be a model of daily life as a disciple, not just Sunday rituals.
• Trusting God over man-made systems for provision and function is key (cf. opening a coffee shop, 110:09–110:25).

12. Economic Realities, Money, and Pastoral Livelihood (129:25–147:11)

• Tension about pastors living the “American dream”—should they be poor, humble, or is prosperity acceptable?
• Zack and others agree God’s care and provision is sufficient; consumers must be wary of excessive “professionalization” and unreflective career-pastor culture.

13. Media, Podcasting, and Future of Discipling (131:17–138:32)

• Podcasting is discussed as a new, potentially more authentic and scalable way to teach and reach, especially when coupled with real-life community.
• The dynamic has shifted: outspoken critics cannot simply be ejected from institutional churches if their media voice is widely heard.

14. Personal Vocation, Living the Commission, and The Road Ahead (138:32–End)

• Zack testifies he’s often more effective in personal witness as a barber than as a pastor; job, platform, or income are not barriers to the Great Commission.
• All agree: everyone—through any means (work, podcast, home group)—is called to disciple, and God handles the growth.
• The end of the episode teases a future deep-dive on Indiana’s spiritual weirdness and tunnel/cave systems.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On the shift in church values:

  “Butts, bucks, bricks, and baptisms ... is a far cry from what Jesus set up.” (Zack, 11:39)

• On spiritual warfare:

  “Our fight isn’t with flesh and bone, but with powers and principalities in the spiritual realm.” (Raven, 15:28)

• On the Great Commission’s scope:

  “Every single one of us as a believer is a royal priest in Christ’s kingdom, and we are to be carrying this out.” (Zack, 48:11)

• On discipleship vs. teaching:

  “Discipleship intrinsically needs the ability to bounce questions back ... it’s conversational ... it’s not sitting in church for an hour on Sunday morning.” (Zack, 60:27)

• On tithing in the New Testament:

  “Tithe is not in the New Testament. The tithe is an Old Testament temple thing ... What we are commanded to do is to be generous.” (Zack, 65:01)

• On the danger of systems:

  “…the system becomes: everyone is to be treated exactly the same and everyone learns exactly the same ... We’re all gifted differently.” (Zack, 101:30)

• On living out the faith authentically:

  “First you do the thing, worry about the money later—it’ll be there. God’s got you...” (Zack, 141:50)

• On measuring fruit:

  “If this system created mature disciples I’d shut my mouth ... But it doesn’t. It produces people who want to go and be entertained. If we can just cut the BS.” (Matthew, 72:11)

• On using personal gifting:

  “You guys are talkers ... Use that. Let somebody else that knows how to distribute money to the people that need it do that. Lean into your gifting.” (Zack, 124:54)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Zack introduction / Salty Saints background | 02:09-04:18 | | The Great Commission vs. 501c3 focus | 04:44-05:37 | | Critique of church as business | 11:30-13:55 | | Hollywood narratives vs. biblical warfare | 15:13-16:17 | | Psychological manipulation in church services | 16:24-24:40 | | Ritual vs. authentic worship debate | 30:48-36:50 | | Denominational church vs. home church | 37:44-40:29 | | Reading/discussion of the Great Commission | 43:32-54:48 | | Discipleship vs. Mass-Scale/Teaching | 57:15-61:52 | | Breakdown of the five “mission drifts” | 82:21-101:30 | | The money issue and tithing | 63:47-68:28 | | Individual gifting in the body of Christ | 101:30-104:27 | | Authenticity, action, media, and reform | 131:17-138:32 | | Living the Commission in daily life | 138:32-end |

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Tone & Style

The episode is candid, at times irreverent (“cemetery school,” “baby stealing Babylonian goddess,” jokes about hot dogs and podcast infighting), but characterized by an earnest desire for truth, authenticity, and self-examination. The hosts push one another with challenging questions but consistently return to Scripture as the metric for all practices.

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Conclusion

This episode contends that the institutional church—exemplified in the 501c3 system—has drifted significantly from biblical roots and the essence of the Great Commission. The solution, per Zack and the hosts, is not to throw out community or even institutions, but to recover authentic discipleship, mutual ministry, and Spirit-led action in every area of life, embracing all the means—including media—God places at the church’s disposal.

Transcript

[Zach]

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[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

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[Zach]

When I shop, I can earn 3%.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

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[Zach]

They're still here today.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

When the last trumpet sounds and the heavens Crack Squad, Nebulum Death Squad Death Squad. Welcome back to another episode of Nephilim Death Squad. I am David Lee Corbo, aka the Raven, that is Top Lobster, aka Mr. Nasty. And this is Matthew Hefner, the merchant of brown water and host of Straight.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Bible, where we interview people.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

You know, people on that show. Oh, geez. Can you focus, Matt? Look at the shot. Look what you're doing. This is just bad. It doesn't matter anymore. Anyway, guys, before we get into today's show, if you're wondering where you can support us, consider going on over to patreon.com forward/nephilim death Squad. Getting early access to episodes ad free listening experiences. First dibs on tickets to Bohemian Grove, which is tentatively the 6th and 7th of March. And we'll be doing that VIP day straight from the standard coffee shop slash NDS studio slash casino slash fab shop where we are guaming at you live from right now. Plus a discount code off of merchandise.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

From Toplops.com stoned Ape Theory Bigfoot.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Oh, you're wearing that?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Why not?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

There you go. Have one of those, why don't you?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Go ahead.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

They say they sound like Moose.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Moose?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Who sounds like moose?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

As a little throwback to earlier episode of the Raven. Anyway, joining us today is Zach, and we're going to talk all about the 501C 501C3 system. Before we talk about any of that stuff, let's tell everybody where they can find you and what it is that you do. Zach.

[Zach]

Yeah, so honestly, it's kind of weird to even be here because I'm literally nobody in this sphere at all. I've just been listening to the show for a while, but I'm a pastor, I'm a barber, and I had a podcast for like 3 ish years and we kind of called that quits recently. Not totally. We're going to be putting a little bit out, but if you want to reach us, it's salty saintspodcast.com Be careful. If you look up Salty Saints on YouTube, you're going to run into a Mormon apologetics channel. That's not us. Don't do that. So. Oh, dude, our name's been stolen. Like Twice. We're. Yeah. Which is kind of part of why I was like, let's maybe hang this up maybe. I don't know.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

So I want to say that apparently we. We ridiculed you and made fun of you on a episode of Chronicles. Which is.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Which is.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Which is awesome, actually. You had submitted, and I remember when you said salty Saints, I said, why does that sound familiar? I looked at my Apple podcast and I had subscribed. I remember listening to a couple of episodes. It was a good show. It's a shame that you stopped it or. Or hopefully you started up again. But it was a really good podcast. And I remember a little bit about the story while we were talking about it before we started, and it was like, what did you say? Baby stealing Babylonian goddess.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I wish I. I wish I could remember that episode, because whatever I read in there was enough to make me subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. So, I mean, I don't know what you're doing. Hopefully you started up again, but I urge everybody who's listening to go find Salty Saints. Not the Mormons, but your show. I know it's at least on Apple podcasts. And go subscribe. Maybe. Maybe we can inspire you to fire it back up again.

[Zach]

Yeah, there are a couple of Salty Saints channels out there, so look for the one with a little anchor. That's us, but. Yeah, Right on, man. Well, I appreciate it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Gotcha. So what are we setting out to talk about today? I know you're currently. And the. The. By the way, I could tell that you got a set of hair on you, so. The barber.

[Zach]

Thanks, brother. Yeah, yeah, I try. I try. It's like one of my only finer traits, so I'll take it, but.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

So. So what exactly are we gearing up to talk about here in regards to the 501C3 system?

[Zach]

Well, okay, so when I saw you guys labeled the episode that, I was like, oh, crap. Because that's, like, only a piece of this thing. I. I do want to talk about the 501C3. I think it's kind of. I think it has played a heavy hand on where we're at today as the church. I do believe that more, though. What I would like to cover today is the Great Commission, and I believe that that is kind of crucial to this whole church thing. Like, that's. That's sort of the heartbeat of who we've been called to be. It's one of the last things Jesus said to us before he left. And you Know, if you think famous last words are generally what we remember people by, right. I mean, those are some of Jesus's last words to his people is, I need you to do this right. And so I would like to talk about that. I want to talk about the 501C3. But definitely the heartbeat of this thing is the Great Commission.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

So then can I recommend let's. Let's go through the 501C3 system? Because I'd much rather.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Can we start at the beginning?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

What is the beginning?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I don't know. Like. Yeah, so you're a pastor of a church. Tell us a little bit about that. Tell us what's going on with that. What do we. What are we missing? What are we getting right about the church and what we're seeing and like, what denomination? There's a lot to go into. So I understand where.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Why does a pastor listen to the show? I want to know of a pastor that listens to this show.

[Zach]

Okay, so let's start with the why I listen to this show. I love conspiracy theories, which actually, if we've got a few minutes at some point in this, I would like to talk about Indiana with you guys because you bring it up all the time. And I don't know, I might have a few things to throw in the arena there, but I want to hear your thoughts too. I love conspiracy talk. I think you guys nail it as far as, like, you guys are pretty in line with like the hyurology going kind of the Gary Wayne route. Like, that's. I feel like those are kind of backbone pieces of this whole structure. And then, you know, you've got like Jerry Marzinski tacked onto there. You've got like all these other pieces that play into that. And I think it's a pretty cohesive picture of where we may be behind the scenes in the world. Right. And I enjoy that you guys explore those things. You know what, we can't have all the answers on those things. But I like that you guys are trying to do it through a biblical lens and, you know, from the get go, like, I mean, you guys are wild and you say some wild things and I can't always sign off on all of them, but I still love you guys and I. I have enjoyed watching you guys, like, just growing in Christ and latching on to the word and letting that kind of guide things. It's just been cool to watch because it's real, it's not fake, it's not showy. You guys are just being yourselves and you're actually trying to follow Jesus, and I would take that any day versus a polished sermon. So I like you guys, I. Not that polished sermons are bad, but if it's coming from a fake place, then it sucks. And a lot of them, I feel like, are so. Yeah. Yeah. So Matt comes on the show, and I reached out to him. How long ago, man? A couple months ago. We talked for a little while.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I think you might have been the first person I talked to. I think you might have been the first nds, man.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Okay, that's wild. Real quick, Zach, about Matt. Matt does the laundry list we're about to get into. Huh? Well, yeah, Big problems. He'll do a thing. He'll go, this person is talking to me.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Or. Or.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Right, right. Hold on.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

He'll go, like my wife.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

My wife said, oh, my God.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

My wife said this and this and this. And then I go, no, that's. That simply didn't happen.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Or he'll go, you know, somebody reached out to me about that previous episode, and they had a lot to say. Meanwhile, somebody is nobody at all.

[Zach]

Nobody.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It's Matt. It's Matt.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It's Matt.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Playing psychological games. So when he says, you always think that I muted his mic because I now have the power.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Okay, okay.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It's. I would say, safely, 70% of the time, Matt says that you can assume that he's making it up.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It's a psychological.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

But a 30 is strong. Yeah, that's a.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Like Chuck from Guam.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I thought he was. I didn't think he was real.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

A complete figment. Turns out he's real. Yeah, we. We don't know anymore. So, Zach from Indiana, I do remember.

[Zach]

I am real. I am real.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

And he said, you know, it was just interesting because.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Is this real life?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

This is. Well, now it is real life, but. But Matt said that, you know, his conversations about the 501C3 system had, you know, made it all the way to a pastor and that. Whatever.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Say it like that.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I'm paraphrasing. I don't listen to half the things you say, so I can't really recall them in any meaningful way. But that's an accurate statement, you know, that it had stirred something up and a conversation became of it. And, you know, I thought that that was interesting, especially to watch Matt, who was new to podcasting, already have said something that he was engaging with the fruits of.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Of.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Of that, you know, episode. And I thought that that was fascinating.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Hey, thanks, man.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I didn't. There wasn't a compliment in there.

[Zach]

No.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

That was, that was like the nicest thing you've ever said.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I don't think there was a compliment.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

But the fact that there wasn't a, you know, derogatory statement towards me is.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Basically a. I don't do that. I don't do a derogatory.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

All right, okay. So if I remember right, that conversation was just like, hey bro, I hear you like bashing the 501C3, but I don't know, you seem biblical and so.

[Zach]

Well, okay, so, so let me. I got to be careful. So like when, when I say 501c3, like I'm, I'm a pastor. I'm not well versed on the ins and outs of like how, how the money side of things works. I like, dude, I, I'm so not helpful when we have like money talks at the church and things looking at numbers, my brain turns off. It's not the, the world I live in. And so like I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be much help to you here talking about like how I think things should be structured as far as taxes go in the, like, I would. Not that. What I do see though is the, not only the 501C3, but the church growth movement both come about through the like evangelical movement. And I think both of those things in tandem have shaped the church from a community based focus and this like spiritual family, if you will, to more of a business model. And that's where a lot of my concerns come from. And it's strong armed a lot of pastors into living in this place where we're going to be jumping all over the place. So I apologize.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Literally, I mean, that's what the show is about. If it was about anything, it's about being incohesive in our conversation. So please continue.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah, it, it's kind of strong armed a lot of pastors, I think. And so being in this place where like we, we have kind of changed the scorecard of what church is all about. Like Jesus's scorecard is like bringing people from spiritual death to spiritual life where they are now living obedient lives to Christ and transforming the rest of the world with their brothers and sisters that they are also planting seeds to bring to Christ. Right Today the scorecard in the church is butts, bucks, bricks and baptisms. Like who's sitting in. How many people do we have sitting in seats? How much money do we have coming in? Do we have a building big enough? Let's build bigger. And how many people did we dunk underwater this month. And that is a far cry from what Jesus set up. And we've kind of shifted the narrative on who's in charge of doing what Jesus set up. And so that's where all my concerns come from. And the way I think that this kind of bridges with what you guys are all about is. I mean, this show is literally about like the powers and principalities, the forces of this dark world, the things operating behind the scenes. And my argument is the way we combat those things isn't like the way the world wages war. Right? I mean, what, what Bible verse is that? Second Corinthians. Yeah, Second Corinthians 10, 3, 5. For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. Right? Like that's how we combat the darkness of the world. We kind of have this knee jerk reaction, though, I think to get mad at the idea that there are like big bad guy, big bad guys pulling strings behind the scenes. And it's like, I would argue the way Jesus says that we overturn that system is one heart at a time by planting a seed of the gospel in that person's life and then training them up to follow Christ. Is that fair?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That's interesting because if you think about what we're. I often look at like, you know, the sort of the propaganda machine, this big programming that's imparted on us by Hollywood. Hollywood loves to show you a definitive bad guy and loves to show you how to war against that. And I just think like, you know, not only is it the antithesis of how we're meant to combat, you know, the world or these powers and principalities, these things in the spirit realm, but it's also, we're so subjective to. What would you call it, like storytelling in particular? There's something unique human experience where a lot of our ideas are hijacked by compelling storytelling. We've been subjected to generations of compelling storytelling that tell us the exact opposite of how to deal with some great enemy. There is a great enemy, right? But the way that you go about fighting it isn't the way that we're. I mean, we just got finished doing a show on Stranger Things, and Stranger Things is, you know, it's. You have even still this sort of demonic, spiritual. And there's no shortage of big demonic baddies in Hollywood films. But how are you dealing with them? You know, your own psychic powers, your. Your sword and shield? And. And I just think that it's something that we are subjectible. Is that the word that I was looking for before when I said subjective? I might have made up some word there.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I think you just made up another one. That's fine.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Again, that's fine. But we are really easily swayed by that. That good storytelling. And right now, the storytelling is telling us you fight them with your swords and your shields and you physically destroy systems and you fight big, greasy baddies. But that's a pretty important distinction to draw from. Our. Our fight isn't with flesh and bone, but with powers and principalities in the spiritual realm.

[Zach]

Well, so even based off of what you just said, right, that, like, Hollywood is trying to, like, always characterize it, that we're supposed to go fight this war with a sword and a shield and everything. Scripture recognizes that. It's just. Scripture twists it around and says, like, yeah, but like, it's the sword of truth and it's the shield of righteousness. And you know what I'm saying? Like, it's like we. It's biblical principles that. That is how we do this thing. So, like, I like that Scripture doesn't deny our desire for storytelling. It just gives us a truer insight into what those things really look like.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I had a bit of a crisis. Not a crisis. I wouldn't call it a crisis. But like, you know, everybody who listens knows I'm new to all this.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Hot dog crisis.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No, that was that. I had a hot dog solution in the break there, and it was just fine. It was a cup full of hot dogs, but.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I had 15 hot dogs.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It was three hot dogs.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

No, in the garbage can. I made everybody throw all the garbage cans away before we left for a week.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

And it was loaded with hot dogs.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, those hot dogs.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I don't want to air out his personal business.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Please, can you stop? So, all right. This isn't about my hot dog consumption.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

My bad.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It is your bed.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

But I had just started going to church in the grand scheme of things. How long has it been? Six months?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, just about.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Maybe even. Maybe even less than that. And I had this moment where I became a little disenchanted with this system. And this isn't to bash it. I'm just expressing this. This moment that I had. I was listening to Ed Mabry. He's talking about the little Season. One of the things that he highlights in this episode in the confessionals is that he went to school for. He majored in psychology, and they had a course at some point on hypnosis. And one of the things that he learned was this idea of, like, anchoring a thought or whatever. The goal is to impart upon the hypnotism victim. You would anchor it in a specific word, and you would enforce that with touch, with physical touch. And then he starts talking about how that relates to being in the pews and getting that. That notion of turn to your neighbor, you know, touch him, and say, God has a plan for your life, something like that. Right. And what you do is you get this mass repetition going on, which, of course, that's a big part of hypnosis as well. And then you. You have this. Now, after I saw that, I. I became unable. Unable to unsee.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Wait, wait, wait. So Ed was saying that that whole thing where they say, touch your neighbor.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

And say the physical touch is like.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

An anchoring, and it's like a psychology.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It's a method.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah. Method of suggestibility.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah. So they do it in mass hypnosis. Like you ever see when some hypnotist gets on stage and they manage to do it to an entire crowd.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

The question is, where and when did they get taught that as a pastor?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

And I'm not saying that that is inherently wrong.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Well, Zach, hold on. Zach seems like he knows.

[Zach]

I definitely. Well, I don't want to. I don't want to cut you off. Go ahead and finish your thoughts.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

This guy's been talking all day. Go ahead.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

He's crouching right now. I just want to finish energy.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I just want to. I have. I always have energy. So through that lens, I then begin to see all these other elements where they'll say a thing like, you know, it's been a hard week, right? And then you go, can everybody say hard week? And everybody just goes, hard week. And it's like, anybody say hot dogs? Can you say, how many hot dogs have you. Can I hear. Can everybody say hot dogs? Everybody say nine hot dogs, you know, and you. You repeat. And then everybody else repeats these things. And so I have an aversion to that. I don't like the idea of hypnotism.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And don't fall for it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, it explains why. And literally, my wife will tell you.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Who? My wife.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

There has been times where my wife has been standing next to me, and they'll go, turn to somebody and tell them you love them. And like a psychopath I will. I'll stare directly ahead, and I'll go, no. Audibly. Audibly. I'll say no. And my wife will, even at that moment, be filled with shame a little bit. I don't do well with that sort of thing. God made me a specific way. And I'm not saying that it's wrong to do that. Maybe there's something to be said about priming an audience, getting them in this. In this headspace. We look at it as negative. We look at it as you're trying to manipulate me to get me to do something or to get me to believe something. But if what you're trying to get people to accept is Scripture, maybe there's a different mindset that is helpful to be in before Scripture is read. I don't know. I'm just saying I'm built in a way that makes me reject that different base.

[Zach]

So, like, to your point, like, man, that's a lot to cover. So, like, if. Okay, starting at the. Like, maybe there's a different mindset to go into to receive Scripture. Like, I. I think that is very real. We will often start our church services or even our sermons, like, with a prayer, and I'll even say, like, hey, let's pray for a second to, like, get our hearts focused, like, our minds, like, primed to receive God's word. Right. There is something to that. Matt talked about that in the study on Jude. Like, the whole singular focus, that being what, like, a. A good eye is, right? That it's a single eye, that it is a wholehearted focus on, like, we have to consciously tap into that. That's real. So there is something about that that I think is, like, biblical and good. Then again, there's the weird, like, everybody repeat after me so I know I've got you on the same page. And, like, sometimes that's cool, because I just want to know you're listening sometimes.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, I'm.

[Zach]

I'm not big on the can I get an amen thing. I don't play that game. Like, I. I'm not gonna lie. I was in a Pentecostal church once, and they were doing it, and so I kind of, like, hammed it up for a second because it felt kind of nice. I was like, they're listening. This is really awesome.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

If I want to give you an amen, I'll give you an amen. Don't ask for an amen.

[Zach]

No, yeah, that's cool. That's cool. But, like, a lot of this stuff, man, like, I think it comes from. We see Other people do it and we go. That's what that's supposed to look like. So I don't think on a lot of people's parts, this is like, a conscious effort to go, like, I'm gonna hypnotize this crowd. I think it's like, maybe somewhere along the line, could somebody have had a malicious desire to do that? Maybe, but I think it's more likely, like, for instance, like the Enneagram. I'll hate on the Enneagram all day. The Enneagram. It's like, do you know what Myers Briggs is?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I know. I'm retarded. Please.

[Zach]

Personality test.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Okay. Yeah.

[Zach]

Super, super popular in the church sphere. Comes from Father Richard Rohr. Richard Rohr is a Catholic priest, gives it to the masses, writes a book on it. It gets super, super popular in even, like, evangelical Christianity. But when you tap into, like, one who Richard Rohr is, the dude's a universalist. Like, he. He teaches some crazy. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, the. It's all about the Christ consciousness. It doesn't matter if you get it from Jesus or from Gandhi or Buddha, as long as you see that. And it's like, why. Why are we teaching this dude's teachings in evangelical churches? Just because you read a book and it made you feel good.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Well, I don't mean to cut you off, but I just want to make the point that they both come back to the same thing. The whole, like, hypnotizing, put your hand on somebody and, you know, repeat after me. Or the mini gram. Both of those things just come from humans. Church. Humans.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

So what is things? What is the mini gram? Or.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

It's like you're a number.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Like a tiny.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

You'd be like a number seven, and he's a number four. We're like, the Bible in no way ever labels people by number.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Oh, numerology.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Here's the description of who you are based on if you're a number one, a two. No, no. We get our identity from the word of God. We get our identity from God. We don't get it from the world. But that's what I'm saying. Both of these things is, like, people bring things in. Like, there's this book about the love languages. People just bring this crap church. And it doesn't come from the word of God, and it doesn't come from the mindset of the word of God.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Jesus plus is what you're talking about.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah, but it's worse than that. It's just, like. It's corny. It's like, well, you got a Bible. There's a ton of content. There's. You don't have to go into, like, human thinking to bring stuff to the table. Like, just use the word of God and keep that biblical view of everything you do well.

[Zach]

And I would take it a step further, even with, like, some things, like, not to. Like, I do not want to derail this into the Enneagram, because that's like a whole episode. And I'm honestly not totally fleshed out enough on it.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

60 seconds.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

But.

[Zach]

But I will say, like, if you trace that all the way back to where it came from, it comes back to spirit writing. A guy or automatic writing. A guy puts his hand to paper and asks spirits to write through his hand. Like, it goes all the way back to the occult. And so it's like, that has found its way into the mainstream church because it got popular, and a pastor told me it's good. And it's like, yeah, but it's not. And so, like, there's a lot of that, but I don't think it's malicious. I think it's from ignorance a lot of the time.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

You know, I recognize that even on. Even on a fundamental level, repetition is a useful tool for learning. Right. So with. Especially with children, which, you know, I'm going to go out and say it, that we have a pastor that's taking over soon. Don't like the way that he don't now. No, it's okay.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Oh, he's a youth pastor.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

He's a youth pastor. And. And he has a way of delivering scripture that is already tailored towards children. So there's a layer of it that's kind of patronizing, but it's also like, oh, I get it. Like, my son, for example, he was just like, I really don't like the part of church where they make us scream the same scripture like six or seven times. And I go, oh, that's. That's what's happening with the adults is you're.

[Zach]

You're.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

You're trying to enforce these values, this scripture, this information on us, and you're using methodology that is kind of proven. Right. Repetition is proven. Or if you wanted someone to really remember a thing, a sense of touch might do that. So, you know, I don't want to get off and say, oh, it's all definitively bad just because it is.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

There are techniques.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

There are techniques better through what we've been doing with.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

What I've been doing with my life, not necessarily just this show. My life, my Life is like, I'm doing sales, right? I'm selling T shirts where. Promoting a product in a way, money, give us your money. But I don't like to use the standard coffee shop. The standard coffee shop. I don't like to use the standard format of selling these things because it seems disingenuous. But like, as we were talking with Wes just before this, in a sense it is sales, it is suggestibility. But like, how do I, how do I do that in a way that is not just cookie cutter cringy? The same way?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

And why is it so conflicting?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Why is it conflicting when I do that? Why does it feel bad? Like if I've tricked somebody, I've used a technique to trick them, but to tell them the right thing.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And it's like, I don't know.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

No, you just put out a rad thing and let the chips fall where they may.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

That's what I do.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

The issue with the, that's all we do with the, the repeating. They're asking Jack to like repeat stuff. Repeat is, it's akin to memorization. And like memorization is how you end up with Pharisees who can memorize and repeat the entire law, but it's never registered to them and they, it's never affected them and they're not actually living it. That's how you end up with that. With Jesus telling people who could like probably recite the whole law like by heart. And he says, you don't know the scriptures, you err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God. That's how you end up with that. Like, imagine if I memorize the names of everybody in your family. You know, the guys, they come in and they say they've memorized the names of all my family members and ask how each one's doing. But it's like this weird sales thing almost the way people talk. That's totally different than people who know my family and ask, how's Bella doing? How's Aiden doing? How's Jess doing? It's the same thing in the word of God, man. It's like you can just memorize stuff or you can actually like take it to heart in a real way. And I don't know, all those fake ass ways of doing stuff just makes it very fake for, for people that makes it where it doesn't.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Some people though, I. There's a lot of people that like this, like what they.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

The whole methodology we just laid out.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And I don't want to call it fake. Like we came away from church this week where David was like, he said, very funny. I don't want Pastor Mark.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I don't, I don't want this. He takes this and slides it away. I don't want this thing.

[Zach]

Yep.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And I'm like, I get it. But there's, there are other people there that like this thing. Yeah. What, what does that thing create?

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

You rush. You rush to stop him. You're like, don't let Matt win.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I didn't say that.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

You look at the church thing like it's me against you at that church.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It is. It's always me.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

And you're like, don't. Don't let Matt win.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Say you still like it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, well, he's on most things, but you get very nasty. Delete the chat about 501C3 systems. You get very nasty.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I haven't. Lately I feel like I'm kind of just like, whatever.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's. Look, the 501C3 system itself is not terrible. It's. It's the way it's sort of strong armed the church into its current position that sucks. Like, it's not, it's not the thing. It's the way we've let the thing change what we should be doing. That's the problem. You know what I mean? And to be like back to the whole like, you know, some people, some people like this current thing. I would argue less and less people like this current thing. If you look at like. You guys ever heard of Carrie Newhoff?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Not familiar with sounds.

[Zach]

He's.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It's.

[Zach]

It's Carrie Newhoff dot com. He, every year he puts out something. It's like, it's like Nieu Hof, I think. But every year he puts out a blog called like 7 Disruptive Trends for the Church in 2022, 2023, 2024, whatever. And so if you look through those, a lot of the times he's showing like different, different stats that are coming out Barna polls and whatnot. And dude, if you look at like, I think it's in 2022. The disruptive stats for 2022, if it goes all the way back to 2000 and you can find some stats that go back further than that. But like the median worship attendance among US congregations has been in decline since 2000. In, in 2000 the average median attendance was 137 in 2005, it's 129 in 2008, it's 115 in 2010, it's 105 in 2015, it's 80 in 20. 20, it's 65. It's dipping at a 45 degree angle and has been.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No one's talking about this lately. Within the past six months, maybe, or less than that. I mean, given what happened with Charlie Kirk and everything, it does seem to be some sentiment that we're experiencing a resurgence or people are. Christ curious.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Man. This is like. I am so conflicted about it because Matt's always talking about worship or like the Music501C3 music system. And a great example yesterday I came across a video of Charlie Kirk's memorial. Brandon Lake is singing this song called Gratitude on. And he's on it. But this is a stadium. There's like, I don't know, 50, 000 people there.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And I'm looking at Brandon Lake, who is a well trained, polished performer. Great singer, great music, all this stuff. But like you, I know what kind of goes into this. This is a performance. And I don't know how much of it is actual, like, heartfelt worship from the guy. Very hard to tell. But what I can tell is when they zoom out and he goes, hey, let's just. Let's just sing this chorus together. Let's just sing it together. But there's 50,000 people singing the chorus. And I'm like, those people aren't part of the act. They're. They're.

[Zach]

Right.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Part of the show. They're at the show, but not part of this act. And again, I don't want to like trash that guy either because maybe he's, you know, he's trying to do something. But there is a formula to. When you're doing this is a difficult task that he has to do. And there is a formula that works. But when I'm looking at the reaction of the people. 50,000 people singing this chorus.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

In the stage, like, this is powerful. No, I don't know what to make of it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, you could imagine that some percentage of those people just like the song. But there is a percentage of those people that are focused on God in their hearts and minds in that moment. And these words that are coming out of their mouth are aimed spiritually at the worship.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

This is why we need to do this thing on. Well, I need to do this thing on worship. Because this worship, when I'm watching it in the stadium, I'm like, if you can see the worship, it's flying everywhere. Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

If you saw it like a survival.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

A lot of it's going to God. Some of it could be going somewhere else. I don't even going to.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Brandon, what's his name?

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Brandon. Some of it is just learned religious culture. That's all it is, bro. But there's that too that that crowd has a certain percent of churchgoers that they know what to do when he says sing along with me, Hear my heart church. And they're all just going to go along with it, man. And it just ends up being giant show.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

So 50,000 people singing, singing words.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Did he write the song?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, he wrote that song.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, what if 10 of them, meaning only 5. Only 10. 5,000 people are worshiping God, actually worshiping the Lord.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

It's powerful.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

There's something power.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Careful about it.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Do you throw it all out because. Because some part is orchestrated because you.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Just look to the word of God and say like, do we see any examples of this in scripture?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Like a multitude of 50, 000 people.

[Zach]

Can I. Can I read you guys some scripture really quick not to like just crap all over everything Top just said? Because I. I hear you. No, like I hear you and on some level, dude, I see that and I like, I'm over here praying like God, let that be real. Right?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zach]

But then at the same time you have to deal with like passages like Amos 5, 2123, it says it's God. It's God talking to. Well, speaking through Amos to the. The Jewish people at the time because they're not living lives holy to God yet. They're still showing up in the. In the sanctuaries and doing all the religious stuff. And God says, I hate. I despise your religious festivals. Your assemblies are a stench to me. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of your songs. I will not listen to the music of your harps. He goes on and basically just says, like, I would rather you like be. Be just like, let justice flow from you. Like, like stop cheating people in the markets. Like start. Start living the way I've told you to live. Right? But it's like all the religious stuff's there, but the heart's not there. And so that can be there. That can be a thing too. And so we have to like. We have to ask, like, are these people. Are there hearts for God? And we can't know that.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That.

[Zach]

That's why we have to. That's why we have to have community where we are around these people and do know them at the deepest level where I can look into your life and go, dude, I don't know that this lines up for you. Like, I don't know that you're actually with this thing or encourage you in the ways you are.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

The crazy thing is that is, like, because I've been part of these. I don't know, like a worship session, like a worship team. And I've been part of it in a point where I have my both feet out. Out of the door and didn't want anything to do with it. And. And participating, helping to create the condition in which we are inviting the Holy Spirit. And guess what? It was still there. Even though I was kind of like. Like, I was like, I was. I was looking at the exit and I was like, still. This thing is still here.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Do you.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

You understand what. Why I'm conflicted because I agree with what you said. A lot of it's garbage. But, like, okay, then how do I make. What do I make of the. The fact that the Holy Spirit is still there even because maybe one person called upon it.

[Zach]

That's exactly right.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And it's in that room and I'm there saying, like, screw this church. Like, the way I was way worse than Matt for years and years, which is why I'm actually soft on the. Softer on the church now.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Soft.

[Zach]

Right. And that. And that's why this is sort of like a twofold issue. And like, it's like, we. We've got, like, the people that are making a mockery of this thing need held accountable for it. And a lot of it is they've been taught poorly. Like, I mean, sadly, that's what a lot of problems for a lot of people boil down to, is you just don't know any better. A lot of people do know better, and they're in it for the wrong reasons. I run into that. And then on the flip side, you've got honest people who love Jesus in the middle of it that really do love this thing and are being fed by it and really are pursuing Jesus. And so that's why, like, I hate talking about a lot of this stuff because I always feel like I'm crushing somebody that doesn't need crushed because it is feeding them and they are growing. But in the same time, it's like, but there may be a better way yet. You know, like, yeah, that's where it gets hard.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I think now is the moment for the better way. Like, we were just talking about. So you're talking about church statistics going down. Yeah, but in the last three months or so, I feel like There is a resurgence and you see, if you see what's going on politically and how that's being tied up and mixed up with like, you know, Christian nationality. With the pastor Joe Webbing now meeting with Nick Fuentes, I feel like that's a good signic indicator of where it's headed, but it's not there yet. And it's like, okay, we just watched. We watched something like it all mixed up. We watched a guy die on stage and now we're watching people be confused about which way to go. And they're. They look like they're choosing the church, but that's like a broad option. That's not a narrow road. They're choosing church in general and they're headed towards this. But they're not walking, in my opinion. They're not walking towards what. What we're doing, but at least they're not walking towards twerking and Nicki Minaj. Now they're faced in.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, they are now walking towards Nicki Minaj because she's like, well, yeah, but.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

This is a part of the confusion. Am I making sense?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, you are.

[Zach]

You are.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

People are trying to better themselves and I'll say that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

So you have. Well, you have the church and as it. As it exists and there's the structures and the foundations there. And I would think it. I think it would be stupid to tear this stuff down to the ground.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's not it. You don't.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

It is at some point going to be torn down. Jeremiah 1, he sends Jeremiah. If we could pull it up.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I don't.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Do we have blue letter Bible or anything or. No, we don't talk to them, man. I'm sending you to tear this thing down so that you can build back up.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And Jeremiah 1, what, probably like verse.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

10 somewhere right in there. Maybe 8, 9, 10 somewhere right in that section. I mean, I. I think that what's coming, dude, is like that system needs to be torn down. Like that system's been irrelevant. Not to say good doesn't happen in it. Good happens in your car driving down the road too.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Jeremiah 110. See, I have set. I have set this day. I have this day set the. Over the nations. Shut up, Matt. And over the kingdoms to root out and pull down and to destroy and to throw down and to build and to plant.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

See what it's for to build into plant. You got to start new, man. Yeah, I don't know. I see a similar thing happening. Maybe not.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, but does this mean like, like the actual Buildings that were there. Like, or, or.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

No, no, no, I'm not talking about like pitchforks and flames and burning built. No, no, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that system at some point has to go away and real preachers have to be raised up who know the Lord, who preach the word of God. That system, I don't know if we've talked about it yet. It just, it breeds hypocrisy, this concept that you're going to go to this thing one day a week and you're going to act different than you act the other.

[Zach]

Right, right.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Say whatever you want, dude. I would say no, that's not a neutral system. That's a bad system. And it's not built on the word of God. Like, the scripture is very plain, that the church is built on apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists and teachers. Jesus Christ being the head cornerstone, like that. Like, that's what all this is built on. We've built a completely. I don't know if I want to say antichrist system, but I'm not against saying an antichrist system because it's another Christ. Like Antichrist, you know, doesn't necessarily mean horns and pitchfork, but it means another Christ. Like we've built this other Christ system. And so, I don't know. I just think slowly but surely real ones are going to keep coming out of that system. And some people I would. I like to bash on you and say mean things, but I'm being serious. Like, I respect that. You do want to stay in that and help it. I get it. I don't. I'm not knocking you for that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Not gonna help.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yes, you are. What are you there for? That's what you're always saying you're there for, is to help that system.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Not that system. To help what we're doing there.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Okay, That's. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, you're there to help.

[Zach]

Can we, can we shift it a little bit and come back to this? No, because I think.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah, yeah, more great commission.

[Zach]

I'll go. So, like, I think talking about how we got here can kind of help see, like, what has been added on to it, which I think makes it easier to talk about what's wrong with it. Is that fair?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zach]

Like, like, okay, if you go back to like, what Jesus was doing, like, when you guys look at just like the words of Jesus, the system Jesus set up, like, I'm curious to like, what. What do you guys see? Like, what, what do you think Jesus set up like, as his original church.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

What?

[Zach]

Like, if you just had to summarize it briefly.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I mean, it looks like he was.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Telling people, let's meet up one day a week, and we'll do announcements, five songs, and then I'll give a speech.

[Zach]

So what do you actually think that Jesus was saying?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I mean, for me, it looks like he was ministering, like, with his life. Like, he was going around living in this way, and the people that he came into direct contact with were directly affected by his life. The way he lived, the things he said to them, the things that he did with them. Like, this was just a dude that lived constantly in this way. It wasn't like, let's go to this special place and live this way, or, like, you know, it was. It was his life. That's. That's what it was.

[Zach]

And, like, it. Is it fair to say, though, that, like, the disciples were intrinsically connected to all that? Like. Like, that they were being, like, brought along for all that?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Zach]

So, like, can we. Can we pull up the great commission? Matthew 28, 16:22.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It's actually interesting that we're talking about this today because this is something that keeps coming up over and over again, not only in episodes, but just, like, in my. It's funny because every once in a while, you know, I'm new in this walk. I'll learn something new, and then it just. I don't know if it's me just repeating the. On every episode or if it also happens to be.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

You do a lot of that?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I do a lot of that. I do a fair bit.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I was gonna say that I think the church should look like. And not to. I just really want to say it around Max. He's disgusting.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Go ahead, say it. Say it loud. Look at him in the eyes.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It should be, like, Bible studies done on your big, white, pretentious couch. That's what it should be. I think.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Your couch is pretentious.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, a little bit pretentious.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

But honestly, you guys built for Bible stuff. You guys have the same couch.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Why? We have a big couch.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

You guys literally own the same sofa.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Sorry, hold on.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

That's a strange shock to hear that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Okay, there you go. Matthew 28:16. Can you read that?

[Zach]

Yeah. What are we in right now? Is it in kjv? Do you guys mind if I go, like, niv or something? Just, like. Because it's more modern English. I'm sorry, Matt. I know you love your kjv.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

He loves it so much.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I'm all about any translation that Works man.

[Zach]

Okay, so the Great Commission, right, It's then the 11 disciples. What's that?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No, Matt's just interrupting. Please.

[Zach]

Oh no, you're good, you're good. It Sundays then the 11 disciples left for Galilee, going to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. Then they saw him, they worshiped him. But some of them doubted. If you break that down to the truest Greek, it's actually closer to and they doubted. There's. You don't see the whole sum of them. Actually. You can pull that up right now if you need to. If you can break that down.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

If you pull up worshiped. It actually says a three piece band came out and stopped.

[Zach]

Started playing.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Stop it.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Don't worry about that because worship is music.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

A three piece band, man. You have a lame church, we got a 17 piece band.

[Zach]

So. So if you see, it's these and these. Doubted, right? So they doubted.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Right?

[Zach]

Like so, I mean, like doubt is broader than we. We actually soften that in the English. Right? So it's. And they doubted. Jesus came and told his disciples, I've been given all authority in heaven and on earth. So this is like him speaking from like a kingly decree, right? And he says, therefore go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I've given you. And be sure of this, I'm with you always, even to the end of the age. The thing I don't hear talked about enough on this, actually, maybe before I say this, I'll ask like, who. Who is this commission to, in your opinion?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, I mean, in that moment it seems to be to the disciples, but in general it's those who are disciples, those who are following Christ.

[Zach]

How did you land on that? I'm curious. I agree.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Go back and look at the context. I immediately forgot everything.

[Zach]

Well, I'm just like, that's awesome that you came to that, because you're exactly right.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

But well, to the end of the age, what are you like? So it's then the 11 disciples went to Galilee with him and he's talking to them. But yeah, very end, at the end, he says, to the very end of.

[Zach]

The age that I am with you always. Even to the end of the age.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah. He's not just talking about his death or their martyrdom, he's talking about an age. So what age?

[Zach]

I think it's like until his return kind of deal. Because then he will be with us in person. Right. Like, it's like he's with Zach.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

This is a little bit of an. Not. It's. It's on topic, but not quite the point you're getting at, but it's something I've been curious.

[Zach]

Yeah, you're good.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Does it. Is he saying, go forth, make disciples of men until my return.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Ah, I see what you're doing.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Because.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Which return?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, you know, just. Because the little season thing keeps coming up constantly, and it's like, oh, crap, crap. I've been wondering.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Going with that.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It's like, if. If you believe that we're in the little season, which, like, I'm not even pushing back against you. Fine, whatever. My question then immediately becomes, like, what is our job as servants of the Lord? What are we called to do during the little season? We're meant to make disciples of men, seemingly until the return of Christ. But if Christ has returned and the millennial reign has happened, and we're now in some short season where Satan is loosed, what are we called to do? Because it's like, my concern really only ever is, like, what's my job?

[Zach]

Well, let me ask this. Are people still coming to Christ in this world today?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah.

[Zach]

How do people come to Christ?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Through hearing the Gospel.

[Zach]

So I would say our job is exactly the same today because we are the hands and feet of Christ. We are the method through which he has chosen. Like, he could do it all himself if he wants to, but that's not the way God has chosen to work in the physical creation. He's chosen to do it through his ambassadors, his people. Right. Like, we are the method. And so I would say, like, look, whether you're a little season or not, I'm not. It's still. It's the same deal. Like, your job. I do the same thing with Armenian Calvinist arguments of the like, is it all predestined or is it free will? And it's like, hey, what's your job? Same job, dude. What's it change? Like, your job is to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And here's the kicker. Teaching them to obey all that Jesus has commanded you, which means everything gets recycled into the next person. So this command to the disciples is a command to every single disciple that they then raise up.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

The unbroken chain is what you're referring to. And this was supposed to be an unbroken chain that just went from. From that day to now. And in some ways it is. And in some ways, we have to get back to it. The chain did get broken in a lot of ways.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Something else that's interesting too is baptizing people. Are we called to, Are we, Should we be baptizing people?

[Zach]

I would argue that if you are then to teach every disciple that you make to obey all Christ has commanded, like if you trace this all the way back, all of these things he's saying to the first people he said it to, because they are then supposed to teach the next person to obey all those same things, all these land on you and me. And so my point here is like, baptism, it's not just for pastors. Discipleship is not just for pastors. Like, every single one of us as a believer is a royal priest in Christ's kingdom, and we are to be carrying this out.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

But that's another flaw in that system. That system creates this mindset that it's just for the pastors to do, dog.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

So.

[Zach]

That's right.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I'm saying that system is neutral, man. The system.

[Zach]

No, I don't disagree. I don't disagree at all. Which is why it's super hard for me to be in it right now, because I feel like I'm trying to turn a really big ship.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Because it's like a man of God that, like, came up, knew you love the Lord, knew you were called to the work of the kingdom of God, and there wasn't, like, that was your option. Like, that's what you do, right?

[Zach]

Well, it wasn't even that, dude. I was in the system before I even learned all this. Like, I, I, this became revelatory to me. Like, after all that, I got in the system, dude. Like, I, I came out of high school, I went to college, I slept around, I drank, I did the usual, like, I fell away and I came back thing, right? But like, I then get out, I go start a band, I tour around, I try and do that thing that all blows up. I have this come to Jesus moment. And then my thing, rock band, my whole thing is like, I tried to get back to, like, I, it was actually what my NDS Chronicles was about. But it's okay. You guys don't remember, but, like, but I'm sorry. No, it's not. I'm just, I'm just messing.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I do kind of remember this, but.

[Zach]

But basically God gives me this dream. It, it freaks me out. That sends me basically back to just reading scripture. And then like a year later, through scripture, it explains my dream. And I realized all I was being called to the Entire time was to come out of my sin and to go tell people about Jesus. And that was it. It wasn't anything weird. It was just, like, really weird circumstances to get me to a very basic biblical thing. So I go. And the best I could understand is, well, I'm supposed to tell people about Jesus. The best way to do that is to be a pastor. So I go become a pastor. But then it's like, wait, everybody's supposed to be doing this. Like, everybody is supposed. Like, this is. I.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

So now.

[Zach]

Do the thing. That's my whole goal, you know, so. Oh, you guys look very concerned. What just happened in the chat number.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Number one, top touched your volume on your mic, and as soon as that happened, your mic cut out for a second. And then Matt had a visual, visceral reaction to that. He had to actually turn his body away from the television and from the cameras. I saw that. That was bizarre.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Matt, these guys are not professionals. You're good.

[Zach]

You're good.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

What I wanted to say is, I guess that means we're going to be doing baptisms at Bohemian Grove.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah. We're installing a pool right there in the back.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No, I think we just get a container, fill it with coffee. Coffee is mostly water.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

So I think we can actually do that. But I've been thinking about this Great Commission thing quite a bit lately. I was having a conversation with my wife, and what ended up coming up was this idea of, like, just because I do this thing on camera doesn't mean that I'm in. That I was called. Because we're all called, right? We're all called to come out of our sin, like you said, and then accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and then engage in this Great Commission, which answers a lot of questions for a lot of people who say things like, what am I meant to do here, God? You know what's my. It's like your purpose is the Great.

[Zach]

Commission to live the life Christ lived. I mean, that's it, right?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

And then go forth and make disciples. Go forth, sin no more. Make disciples of men. So it's like, this isn't special to me. This is special to all of us. We all have this thing. And you don't need to be some expert in scripture, or you don't need to be some podcaster with lights and cameras, or you don't need to be a pastor with a stage and all these things. You've been given something.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

You just got to own a coffee shop.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

You got to own a coffee shop. You have to Be a wizard with. With the brown water. But you have a testimony you've been given.

[Zach]

That's right.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

You've been given a story to share with other people. And the thing is, it's like, you know, sometimes you go off and you start reading scripture, and to some people, that's loaded. And maybe you don't know exactly what you're talking about because you're new. I'm talking a lot about myself. It's like, I don't know a lot of this. I'm still new in my walk. What I know is what I went through and what I experienced, who I was before and who I am now. And that's super relatable because we're all sinners and we're all lost until we answer this call. So you have this thing that's actually really potent. It's really simple, right? You, you. You. You get baptized. You accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. And then just start by sharing your story and having a genuine. Not just curiosity, but like a genuine desire to. To draw closer to God. So if you're doing that thing, if you're sharing your story, this is what happened to me. I was this shitty person before, which. Who wasn't right. And this is a thing that happened. This is what I realized. This is what I was doing. This is why it's wrong. And this is how my life has changed. And. And this is where I'm at now. That even if it resonates with one person, what you've now done is you've shown somebody that there's salvation for them, that there's eternity with God.

[Zach]

Exactly right.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Where it's like before, Like, I don't give a. What are you. What are you gonna do? Even if you. Your biggest accomplishment in helping somebody was like, I gave somebody $20,000 once. I had enough money in my pocket, and I said, you know what? This guy's hurting. Let me give him $20,000. That's great, dude. That's awesome. Somebody found eternal salvation because you shared some words in a sequence that resonated with them. That's it. It's. It's really simple, and it's kind of, I don't know, profound in its simplicity. You know what I mean? It's like, what are you called to do? Make disciples of men? How? Talk about what you went through. That's it for now.

[Zach]

So I teach a course. I don't want to call it. It was really good, man. It was very legit. So, like, I teach a training on. On disciple making and, and we're really careful. Like we, I, I, I like to say disciple maker. That's kind of a term in a circle of people I run with that we try and land on. Because the whole, like, making disciples part has kind of been removed from discipleship. And so we say disciple maker because then you can't get it twisted. Like, that is part of what it means to be a disciple is making other disciples. So we teach people how to make disciples. And it's just the Bible. We just talk through the Bible and just talk about, like, who are you in Christ? Like, what is salvation? Like, you know, to try and give you the basics so you can now keep replicating that. But one of the things we always try to hammer home is, look, one thing nobody can take from you is your story. It's anecdotal evidence that means they can't disprove it. They can't tell you it didn't happen because it happened to you. And that's enough for a lot of people. And it's a perfect place to start, is with your story, so you don't have to be an expert. Anybody can share the gospel, anybody can plant seeds of the gospel. And that's like the language I love to use. That's biblical language of like, it's a seed being planted, it's a seed being watered. And the beauty of that is, like, in Mark, it talks about like, a man plants a seed and then he goes to bed, and whether he wakes up and does anything with it or whatever, like, God is the one that causes that seed to grow. Paul says, you know, like, I planted a seed, so and so watered it. God brought it to life, right? He made it actually grow. And so it's like we are part of the process. We do what we can, but God's going to do the rest. And it doesn't matter how bad you mess it up. If you're honestly trying to do what's right and you're stepping out in faith and trying to use the word of God to the best of your ability through the use of like, like tapping into the Holy Spirit, like, letting the Holy Spirit speak through you, like God's going to use that. God is going to use that for his glory. And so it's like, you don't have to worry and you don't have to be a pastor. We're in this model right now where the whole deal is, come and see, let me bring you here so my pastor can teach you about Jesus. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, it should be a sending model. It should be. You are being trained at church to then go out and be in the world and tell people about Jesus and live a life honoring to God.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Let me tell you something though, real quick, man. There's a lot of people that shouldn't. I'm just being, I'm, I'm just gonna be real with you and kick against what you're saying. A lot of people that shouldn't. There's a lot of people that tried.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Name them for years.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

He's getting nasty.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It's your family member. It's, it's the person that should not. But they're, they're pushing it on you and you push it away. You want nothing to do with it.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Oh, I see what you're saying. They're not living a Christ like life, but they're pushing like the Bible on you.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Maybe, maybe then that comes from the fruits of where they're, where they're being watered. You know what I'm saying?

[Zach]

And maybe, and that's part of the discipleship issue is those people were probably never discipled and probably aren't currently discipled or they'd be getting better at it. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's, that's why this issue is so important. Like most pastors don't have anybody discipling them right now. I'm in a shared leadership model. There's not one pastor that's in charge of my church. Like, there's four of us. We're really more of like elders. Right. And like we, we shepherd each other, we lean on each other, we let each other know what we're going through. Most pastors don't have that. Dude. Most people don't have that. And it's like, it's crucial to growth. I don't disagree with you that there are people, that their confession is damaging. But it's not usually because the gospel is being like that. The gospel isn't doing what the gospel does. It's because their life doesn't line up with it and they aren't landing with you. It's not the gospel, it's them. You know what I'm saying?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, it's. I mean, you know, that's why we're called to live a life that models. You know what I mean? It's like go forth and sin no more. The, the fruits of your life should be the thing that people can look at. And I mean, that's, I guess that's a tough Walk for everybody, though. I mean, I was.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

But we're.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Now we're talking about something at scale, I think. Yeah, go ahead, Matt.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

No, I was just gonna say that's exactly what the issue is, though. I think maybe this is what you're getting at, is that this is a thing we're doing at scale, whereas discipleship doesn't happen like that, bro. Like, I have people sometimes tell me they're going to do a discipleship group in the back and they're looking to get like, you know, 50 people or whatever. And I'm just like, bro, you're not gonna like. People ask me if I've ever discipled anybody. I can think of one guy specifically. I met with them every Tuesday for like a year and a half, and he read the scripture for that entire week and then we'd meet up on Tuesday and talk about what he read. And we do that every week. It went on for a year and a half. We almost went through the entire Bible just doing that. But it's painstaking and it's one on one. And there's no glory for that. There's no, like, you can't do that and get paid at a 501C3 system for one person for a year and a half. But at the core of that word disciple is discipline. And people don't want that. People don't want to live a disciplined lifestyle.

[Zach]

And there's like a huge difference between teaching and discipleship, right? Like, they are not one in the same. Like when I'm still like, I'm in a church of 150, 200 people, I maybe have two people. I'm discipling maybe three. Yeah, that other 150, 200 people are not being discipled by me. They're being taught by me.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Jesus had 12. Like, we think we're just going to decipher.

[Zach]

And he's. He's God at a time, right? He's. He's God and he's got 12. I am fallen man. I can maybe handle three to five, you know what I'm saying? Like, we, we. We're discipleship intrinsically needs the ability to bounce questions back. Like, it's come. It's conversational. It's like, look and see. It's. It's kind of that whole like, you know, I do. Then I. What is it you do? I watch. Have you ever looked through that kind of deal of like, how to teach somebody something? Like, first you watch me and you get to ask questions, then like, you do it and I help Then eventually it's like, then just you do it. You know, it's sort of this, like, come along with me and let, let us do this thing together. That's how you're going to grow. That's discipleship. It's not sitting in church for an hour on Sunday morning. Which is why I also don't know that this is like strictly a 501C3 thing so much as like small what happens in small group versus what happens on a Sunday morning. Like Sunday morning is not meant to encapsulate the whole thing. It's supposed to be. Yeah, we gather together in big groups to love Jesus together. And we gather in really small community based, like relational groups to honor God together. And I would say that part is like 90 of the equation.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zach]

Yet it's the part missing for most churches.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I find it like supplementary. Right. It's like, I, I don't think you need a church to draw closer to God, but if you're serious about drawing closer to God, it can be supplementary. It'd be massively helpful. I mean, there's been times where I've been there and the sermon is like, damn, dude, Holy Spirit is 100 communicating with, I'm sure plenty of people in this congregation specifically on this topic, but me directly, like, I can feel this thing is something I've been, you know, was on my spirit for the last 48 hours. And all of a sudden we're addressing it specifically here. You know, it's happened a multitude of times. Top was saying something about scaling up. And that's an interesting thing to say because when I was talking about the whole mass hypnosis kind of techniques, I had a bit of a nihilistic thought that crept in where more of an observation. I said, if this was a hypnosis, what then would it be for? And I've settled on this idea that it could be beneficial for the psychology of a person to be in a certain headspace when getting ready to receive the word of God. Also did take note that the very next thing that happened after the music and hypnotism segment, segment was tithing. And I said, that is a little shocked, uncomfortable of a thought. Yeah, with the, with the tithing. I do recognize though that if we're called to preach the gospel to all the corners of the earth until finally everybody has heard, you know, the good news of Jesus Christ, well, it would be a lofty thing to go to X, Y and Z. And I think that the people that are going and raising churches in Mexico or they're raising churches in Norway, or they're doing whatever it is that they're doing. This requires some sort of funds. And so. Yeah, which.

[Zach]

Which is. Is biblical. Like, I mean, it's not wrong to be paid for the work you do. Right. But at the same time, it's like, where's that line get drawn?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yes. Yeah. So. So, I mean, I'm caught up in this place where I'm like, I happen to notice a thing, and it's that we've primed everybody psychologically to then be in the most vulnerable place you could be, you know, if you are truly being subjected to hypnotism. And then we're immediately asking them to tithe afterwards. And that's, you know, an uncomfortable topic. But then I look over and I go, well, it does cost money, logistically speaking, to send anybody anywhere to spread the gospel, erect a church. You know, how are these people going to live and eat and all this stuff? People are going to wild places with their family, they're taking their family unit, they're uprooting them, and they're going to a place where people don't even speak the same language, and they're trying to build a church and they're spreading the word of God. And I didn't think, you know, within that, within missions, there are definitely people that are on fire for the Lord that are trying to do this great commission 100%. But we do recoil at this concept of tithing. And I have to admit, within that context of the hypnosis aspect is very uncomfortable.

[Zach]

Well, to be totally real with you, like, the tithe is not in the New Testament. The tithe is an Old Testament temple thing. There's no mention of a tithe in the New Testament or the way the church operates going out of the New Testament. What we are commanded to do is to be generous, right? Like, we're. We're like. And so my argument is always like, hey, if you're going to this thing that we call church week after week, and you want to come here and you want to sing the fancy songs, and you want there to be like, you know, we can dim the lights or whatever, and we can have blue, softer lights that come up maybe every once in a while, okay, you want to be. You want some projector screens that have light bulbs that cost a lot, and this is a big building because there's a lot of you, and we need electricity. If you choose that, that is the way you want to do church, and you want it to be in this Particular way. It would be kind of crappy if you didn't help us keep it going. I kind of. That's kind of my argument for it. It's not you need to give 10% of your income. It's not that. That's nowhere biblical. It's just more like, if you want this, help us continue doing this. If not, I'm more than happy to meet in a park next week. You know what I'm saying?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Like, is why I'm, like, I'm skeptical about giving tithe. I don't really give tithe, but I help if I have a specific set of talents. If I can help you with sound room or AV production, this is what I do. Then I. Then I said, yeah, I can help you do that because I see what you're doing here. And in some form or fashion, this is not reaching. I mean, this is not reaching the people in the way that, you know, Matt would like to see it done or. But it is doing something. You know, I look at my father. You can make the faces, all the faces you want. I look at my father, who is a product of this sort of system, and he's one of the best people that I know, and because he was in it, and because he took the lessons of it. So I'm like, okay, I could call these people. I can call them thieves, liars, losers, which a lot of them are. And I've. I've been kicked out of church for doing it from. From the. The pulpit, from on the stage, calling the pastor a liar, a thief, a. Okay, so, yeah, we could. We can go down that route. But the reality is, all that could be true. But there is also another set of truths that people are reached by this thing. And I don't know what to make of it. Like, it exists now, and if it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Doesn'T get the things. The lights go off.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, I just don't.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I don't know.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

But it does exist. And this is a. We. We have a tool here that we use to do something similar.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

If we weren't getting paid from this show, this wouldn't be a thing. We wouldn't have all these lights in this fog machine and these laser shows, that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

That's true, too.

[Zach]

So, like. Like, I'm a Protestant, right? Like, I'm not Catholic. If you go back to, like, the teachings of, like, Luther coming out of the Roman Catholic Church, like, Martin Luther looks at the church and he recognizes that even though he disagrees with the system, that the spirit of God is still at work in it. And that there are those who are real in it. And it's like, that's sort of like that remnant concept. Like, even when Jerusalem is totally against God in the Old Testament points, like, there's still always this remnant of true Christ followers even in the mess. Right. And so, like, I. I don't think anybody's got a perfect theology. There was one guy with a perfect theology, and that's Jesus. Right. Like, the rest of us are just trying to make this thing the best we can. So I don't want to totally just hate on it. I'm with you, top. Like, but at the same time, like, there are parts of it where it's like, why are we doing that? And it's like, you're not allowed to ask some of those questions. And that's not real cool either.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

You know, I've seen people recently.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

No, I am allowed to ask those questions.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No, he's saying, like, right.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

As a standard, like, as a. As a regular churchgoer, as somebody that goes to a church and is. You want to have the status of the person you want to be a coveted member. I don't really give a. About all that. Like, we. I was. I was there running the sound room, and I went to talk to the guitar player, and he's like, yeah, I got gas. You know, gear requirement syndrome. I said, good thing you don't have diarrhea. And he looked at me and he goes, we can't say that. And I go, well, I just did. I don't care what you think about it. I just. I understand what this thing is. And I'm like, can we move the ball on this thing just a little bit more? You can kick me out, whatever. This doesn't matter to me. I'm not going to do what you tell me here if it's not biblical. I mean, you know, obviously, like, we have to think about, I'm not just going to follow your rules.

[Zach]

But that's. But that's how you should be. Like. Like, you should be ready to question what isn't biblical. You should be ready to ask those questions. It's just there is this culture we've developed where it's like, but that's a no, no. And a lot of people never make it beyond that culture of, like, I just do what my parents did, and I don't ask why. And it's like, we have to ask why. Given you're actually seeking truth, if you're just looking to, like, hear what your own itching ears want to hear, then you're gonna end up a heretic. But point being, like, if you're actually pursuing truth, you're gonna end up at truth. Keep pursuing truth, right?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, I mean, it's a. I don't know, it's. It's a strange thing to be in from, from my perspective, having not been raised in it, because I don't have any of that go along because this is what I was raised in. This is what my parents did. I didn't have. I chose to go as a, as a 35 year old man, you notice.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

The pressure of it. The whole turn to your part, turn to the person next to you and say this. That's kind of what that is, dude.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I was getting kind of upset. There's a guy at the back of the church who's just screaming like randomly. Just Jesus Christ, just screaming as loud as he can. And I'm like, whoa, what is going on? And then it's like the, the tongues thing comes around and he's just screaming in English. He's just screaming in English like he's not. And I'm not saying it makes it better if you do, you know, some shit I never heard before, but he's just screaming words in English, like I said at the door, and all you need is open it. And I'm like, why? Like, are you. You're not Jesus, sir. Why are you doing it? And the whole thing is just really weird. And then my son comes over and he's like, yo, worship is weird.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

This is what I'm saying is like, once there is something, I feel like, and I might be wrong, but I feel like when you invite, when you invite something into the room.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And it's there. I feel like people can take, you can take that. There's an energy there. I don't know, but people can take it and twist it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, there was a little stuff, man. I don't know, there was a little consuela, a little, you know, Hispanic woman who's doing tongues. This time I'd never seen it before, and this time it rubbed my wife the, the wrong way. And I think the reason is because, like, you know, she's Peruvian, so she has like.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

That's not the same lady that's making stuff up. Well, she's a different lady now.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No, no, she's. She's like, yeah, it wasn't the fedora lady. She goes. I think it's because she has like all these Spanish elder female relatives. And she was able to. Now there's a cultural connect. She came away Being like faking the funk. And I didn't like the way that felt. It felt weird. It felt like you were faking the funk. And so she really didn't like that lady. And like, we just all came away from this time, Even my son, like I said, was like, I don't like when they make me go. And it's like, what are the fruits of this? If am I going and feeling a connection with God or am I going.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

And being well, that's the question.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Exhausted by strange things.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

What is the fruits of this? If this system created mature disciples, I'd shut my mouth, I promise. So shut my mouth. But it doesn't produce mature disciples. It produces people who want to go and be entertained. If we can just cut the bs.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Dude, it feels like it's entertainment. When I was there, I did look around and I was like, oh, this is a free concert.

[Zach]

I don't disagree. Can I ask, can I ask what you mean when you say this system specifically? Like, like, because like, in the midst of it, like, we're kind of recognizing like, there are real ones in the midst of like, this whole mess. So, like, what, what particularly, Matt, are you referring to, like, as the system.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

The 501C3 system would.

[Zach]

So, like the, the church bought into like, the whole like, this is a business now thing?

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Well, no, no, I just call it that because I used to call it the denominational church and then I had people say, oh, our church is non denominational. So I was like, okay, what do I call it then? What do they all have in common? 501c3, they all have that in common.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

But what's the elements of it? Five songs and then.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Well, that's the service. But I think Zach alluded to this earlier and this is what it comes back to with the tongues is that like, you have to fit all of your theology into a one hour show on so Sunday. So like, yeah, do I believe in tongues? Yeah, but do I believe that the Holy Spirit's just showing up talking through that person at 10:24 on every Sunday? Like, no. Like we, we're trying to fit all this stuff into one show. And it's this system that isn't built on apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists and teachers. It's built on a talking pastor, a singing pastor, a kids pastor, a youth pastor, depending on what denomination, maybe a deliverance pastor, a food drive pastor. And we've just kind of made this whole thing different than what we've been given in the Word of God, which is nothing new. Because the entirety of the Bible is the covenant people going astray from what God has clearly told them. So we've made up this system, we buy land, we build buildings, where if you look at the scripture, the church was actually selling land. They were selling their land and bringing that money to the apostles to distribute to the poor. Now we're taking from the poor to buy land. It's this completely. It's a, it's a very ironic reality, but again, it's just this entire system and superstructure. Yeah. That requires so much things that are unnecessary when really we can be doing like what happens in the word of God where people are meeting together for meals and they're meeting in homes and they're living this real life with one another. Like you see Jesus preaching, it's in real life, man. All. Everything he's preaching, it's in real life scenarios. It's not in these made up situations where people have come there to be comfortable and hear the thing the way they want to hear it. Paul's preaching at Mars Hill to people who don't want to hear what he's preaching. Right. We've built this system where it's like preaching all these people that want to hear it, but they want to hear it a certain way. And you've just built this fake ass thing. And it's creepy to me, bro, because the word of God is the most real thing in the universe, man. There was a dude one time, they asked him, they said, I think I've told this story before. He was in England and the church was becoming empty and the theater was becoming busier and busier. In an interviewer asked, this actor in the theater said, why do you suppose the theater is packed and the church is empty? And he said, I don't know, maybe it's because we take a fake thing and make it look real and they take a real thing and make it look fake.

[Zach]

Okay, Yeah. I mean, so like to your point, like for the first 300 years of Christianity, there was not a church building. That doesn't happen until Constantine. We went 300 years just meeting in homes. That's a big deal. And to act like we need all that extra stuff is kind of crazy. But at the same time, even before that, when they were meeting in homes. Justin Martyr, you familiar? Yeah. So he's a apostolic Father of the church, if you want to call him that, but you know, early Christian and in his writings, like he lays out like what the church service looked like. And like format wise, you got a guy that teaches you got some songs, you got, like. It's actually pretty similar to what a lot of churches do today. The question, though, becomes like, is that really all the churches?

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Did he get it from the Bible? Because I kind of am getting over this whole thing where they're like, oh, that didn't start until 700 AD or. Yeah, so until 12 months. Like, no, no. What is the B say, though? Because we can go straight to the Bible.

[Zach]

Yeah. So in First Corinthians 14:26, Paul says, what then shall we say? Brothers and sisters, when you come together, each of you has a hymn or a word of instruction, a revelation. Sorry, it's gone off the rails. A tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up, but, like, all those things are part of worship. But is getting together to worship God all Christianity is. And is worship really just an hour we set aside where we go, hey, we're doing this thing this specific way where it's all forwarded to God, but. And at this point, it's not even always forward to God. Half the time it's a TED Talk. So you leave feeling good. But, like, is that all Christianity is? No. Is it part of what it is?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yes.

[Zach]

Well, the vaster part is the life we live together.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

The modern version, dude, I think really stemmed from, and you could probably correct me if I'm wrong, John and Charles Wesley, which was legit, dude, like, John Wesley's preaching fire, and his brother Charles is, like, writing hymns basically of the theology of John Wesley. And they're rad hymns. And people are getting together in groups of 30, 40,000 outdoors where John Wesley's preaching and they don't have a slide in the lobby. And gumball machines and pizza parties, people just came to hear the preaching of the word of God and his brother set music to that and they sang hymns, man. And that probably was rad. That probably was an incredible thing. And then that was those guys. That doesn't mean every single church now, like, exactly does that. Like, like, how is it that all of a sudden everybody's just a cookie cutter robot model of the same thing and there's no creativity and there's nothing new and nothing's happening. It's just, we're just going to copy that model. So nobody's against the freedom in Christ that develops some kind of, like, service however you want. But why is everybody just copying that?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Is there an argument to be made that, like, we're so sort of weighed down by the. Let's just say, like, the 9 to 5 grind, right? Like something that we talk about in the show often is how the economy is in such a shithole that it's, you require a two income household in order to make ends meet. So that means your kids being raised by this, you know, sort of public school system that is a government indoctrination system. And you're out of the house all day long, working, surrounded by people that you don't know and don't love. They're not your family. And your wife needs to also be out doing the exact same thing, spending the vast majority of her day around people that aren't her family. And because of that, nobody's raising the kid. It's like you have this thing where it's a rat race and you're, you're being crushed under the weight of, you know, the economy and responsibility and all these different things. And then when you just want to relax, you have an endless outlet of highly addictive things on your phone, on your television. You know, at your grasp at any given moment, you could be distracted. And the next thing you know, time has gone down the hole and it's time to go to sleep and start this thing over and do it again the next day. And so nobody really has this time, or they do have the time, but what little time they do have, they're using it on these addicting, you know, media devices or what have you. And so who then is going to come out and do something new and inspired that's after the Heart of God. They really are just struggling to make any time within their week to go and pursue the Heart of God. And so here it is, this establishment that's already here and it's already got momentum and let's go and do this thing. I mean, I did MMA for a long time and I've been to enough MMA gyms where it's like the same, you know, you want to talk about five songs at a dance, you show up, you jump rope for three minutes and then there's a 30 second rest and there's another three minutes and there's a 30 second rest and there's another three minutes. And now you can shadow box and the same thing for a couple of more three minute rounds. Then you pair up with a partner, you do a little bit of technique work. You do that about three times and that takes up the majority of the class. Now it's time for the sermon, which is the sparring. And it's like, no matter where I go, it's the same formula because we're all just running on a schedule, dude. We don't have a lot of time. We're trying to get in here, pursue this thing that's meaningful to us, and then get out and go back to the grind. I think a lot of it is because there isn't this freedom of expression. We're not here exploring this world and, you know, checking out all the wonders that God has left for us. We're here grinding so that we don't end up homeless, so that we can raise a family, so that we can hopefully, you know, get our kid to go to a school that's good and. And carve their own life out. Then by the time you're done, you sigh and it's like, that was 30 years, you know, I think that has a lot to do with why we're not seeing this new, inspired, beautiful thing that's after the heart of God. We're just, like, redlining it through life.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Hanging on for dear life with duct tape and prayer. And then. And then as a churchgoer, your mindset because of living like that is like, yeah, hand it off to the professional. Like, he'll take care of it. Yeah.

[Zach]

Can we talk about, like, the. So, like, there. There's a lady named Jesse Cruikshank. She's super intelligent, very, very cool. Got a podcast called Ordinary Discipleship. She's got a book called Ordinary. Ordinary Discipleship. That's what the book is as well. But she's like a. She's got, like, a doctorate in neuroscience or something like that. Like, she's well, well versed in, like, the psychology behind what's happening, how your brain works. And then she's kind of tying that with, like, us as these communal beings in scripture. And she's very much a church is a community thing. But she talks about these five mission drips, drifts in disciple making that have veered from, like, the path Jesus originally laid that got us to where we're currently at. Could we. Could we talk about those five, like, real quick?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Sure.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That's interesting. Is that what's pulled up here?

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

This is.

[Zach]

This is her website. Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Okay.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Okay, let's talk about that.

[Zach]

So, like, Jesus lays out this simple system that anyone can follow, anybody can be a part of it. And the whole idea is, like, you bring somebody along with you, and then you send them out. And it's sort of like the way my buddy Mike talks about it. I really like the way he sums it up. He says, you know, Jesus trained quickly, he sent quickly, and he coached long term. Them like he was there for them all the way along. But he sent these like, you know, spiritual babies out, you know, to do his will. And he trusted them with that. The, the information he gave them was enough. They come back, they get a little more, they go out better equipped the next time, you know, and it's just that over and over and over again. And that's sort of what we all were to be doing. But over time you get, you see drift. And there are a few pillars in the midst of that drift. That kind of show these major shift moments. The first one will be Constantine. Constantine comes about and the way she puts it, she says, Constantine professionalized Christianity. That you have this priest class that raises up. They're these political actors, they're government approved. And the whole deal is it's all for the sake of the ceremony. And there's sort of this like they're a celebrity figure in a lot of ways. And the whole idea is like, that's how you follow God is the priest. You follow what the priest says. You listen to the priest. The next major shift would be like the Enlightenment. And she says that they, that the Enlightenment rationalized Christianity where Christianity was no longer this thing where the main pursuit is, you know, unity with one another, growing in a transformative way in Christ and living lives, honoring to him. But that it becomes about rational minds, that it becomes about thinking, it becomes about the pursuit of knowledge. That that is the thing. It's about learning now, it's not about doing.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

That was her take on the Great Awakening, like in New England, like Jonathan Edwards.

[Zach]

This would be the Enlightenment period.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Okay, okay, I'm sorry.

[Zach]

No, you're good, man.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

When was the Enlightenment? What is that era?

[Zach]

Let me look it up.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I do see that though. I see that now where like this, the, the sort of spirit has been removed from much of the discussion and instead it's like arguing points and information driven. And you know, I think it really just leads to like this almost debate culture where it's like instead of being after the heart of God, the feather in your cap is theological debate.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah, yeah, that's a big problem in the church today. I mean, there's a lot of different problems in, within the American church culture, but one of them is, yeah, this like just an intellectual gospel.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I could be biased because I'm an idiot and I don't have the information to back half of my thoughts. So, you know, does seem pretty convenient for me to pick that, that argument. But it just seems like that from where I'm standing It's like this has become more of an intellectual pursuit and a way to gather information, to formulate arguments than it is a spiritual thing. Because ultimately that's what it is. Right. And we, we. That doesn't come up a lot, at least not in, in the, from. From this person who's new to all of this. I look up at all the apparatus that's been built around this thing that I'm coming to and falling in love with and I go, that looks very much like an institution, businesses, governing bodies, etc. And very legalistic, very text driven. And that's not what I'm discovering. What I'm discovering is, is something that's spiritual.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah. And to your point, like the, and we'll kind of, we'll get more into the institutionalization of things. But like point I meant to make on Constantine is, with Constantine also comes the idea of the dedicated building of the church. And a lot of that stems from he had come out of paganism and he's looking around at all these other pagan religions and he's going, well, they all have big fancy buildings. The Christians need big fancy buildings. And so now you got big fancy buildings and they're modeled after the Greek theater, which is, you know, you can hear better. But now you got one guy that gets elevated and he's the one. And you're a docile audience member that is non participatory and you're just sit quietly.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

But it keeps coming back to getting these models and the things that. Sorry, that we're gonna do. Not from the scripture.

[Zach]

100%. 100%. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. Go ahead.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

No, go ahead. That's all.

[Zach]

Well, I was just gonna say like Constantine, I mean, he's this brand new Christian, some would argue, not a Christian. I'm not gonna make a decision on that. It's just you got this guy brand new to the faith that just came out of paganism and all of a sudden it seems like he's superimposing a whole lot of paganism on it because he doesn't know any better. And I would guess he wasn't discipled, you know what I'm saying? Like, this is a guy who just goes, now I'm a Christian and I'm in charge of everything. Here's how it's going to be. That's a problem, right? Great book on that by Frank Viola and George Barna called Pagan Christianity. There's some stuff in there I don't agree with. There's A lot of stuff I do agree with. It's worth checking out if you ever get the chance.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Something that I. I noticed of, you know, on the topic of. Because you said, like, we're. We're not participating in this. We're just these bystanders that are being subjected to whatever's happening on the stage. And I really don't like that element. And I was thinking about another aspect of, like, the sort of ritual, for lack of a better term, just in the sense of repetition. And you do it every time when you show up. And it is this, you know, please stand, right? And then you're allowed to sit for a little bit, but then it's please stand again. And then you're allowed to sit for a little bit. Then it's, please stand again. And I notice that the standing starts to wear on you because a lot of the times you're in a vaulted room where we're in a vaulted room where, you know, there's a decline.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

His legs are getting tired, dude.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It is. It's not my. But then I start, no, but that's exactly. That's exactly. But check this out.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

This guy had too many hot dogs this week.

[Zach]

Breaking the sweat.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Well, check this out, though.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Tell me if. Tell me if I'm wrong or if there's a real point to this, but the way I see it is it's mildly uncomfortable. Don't laugh, dude.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It's mildly uncomfortable because you're wearing, like, Frankenstein, Doc Martens.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, all right, but hear me out. So it's a little uncomfortable. And because of that, you start to focus much more on what's happening to, you know, not to use the term too much that we beat to death in the show. But you disassociate a little bit from that. Like, don't focus on that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I mean, why, why, why do you kneel when you pray?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

We don't kneel at all in church.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

No, I'm saying, like, what? I. I don't know. I think there's a reason why you.

[Zach]

Well, it's not a comfortable position, I think. Look, I think some of these things are done out of reverence, too. Like, I think you kneel in submission.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, the only thing for me is, Is humbling myself, like, it's.

[Zach]

Right.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Putting myself lesser than, kind of the.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Least you can do really well.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

But this standing thing just doesn't make any other sense except for. Because I'm looking at the context of these 90 year olds. I'm like, these 90 year olds are standing for so long to the point where you see them give up one by one by one, they start sitting down, they can't hang anymore. Yeah, I'm like, so up until that point, they're engaged in pain management. What do you do when you're engaged in pain management? You focus on something else.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Right.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

So if there are.

[Zach]

You're trying to get them to disassociate, is that where you're going?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Get them to disassociate and focus on the, the hypnosis techniques that happening during state.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Straight Bible. He keeps making me stand up. Is that.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, he's trying to get you.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Well, that's really only when he tries to read.

[Zach]

We have recently. Well, not recently. A couple years ago we switched at our church. We. We say, if you're able, please stand. You know, because there's a lot of older folks that, that does take it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No, I know. Of course I'm able. And then I look at these 90 year olds and I'm like, I really want to sit down. But if these 9 year olds, 90 year olds are still standing, I. I can't sit down. Down. I can't. I have to keep standing. But I just think that all it is, maybe there's a reverence thing, but I think kneeling, which I'm not recommending for these old people, but I'm just saying, kneeling, humbling yourself. I understand that. Like bowing your face. I understand that. But you know, this standing thing, I'm like, you're just trying to get these people to focus on anything other than this slow, steady discomfort.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It's taken an hour and a half, but we figured out why. David, it's not Pastor Mark.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It's definitely Pastor Mark.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It's not all the techniques.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Hey, real quick. Doing a lot of standing this week. Can somebody say a lot of standing.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

A lot of things.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I don't want. Pastor Mark and I find it very strange that his entire family is on stage. And I'm like, what's happening here?

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

That's common too.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

What's going on, dude? Yeah, but, but Pastor Rick's family is in the pews. They can't say they can't sing. And they aren't standing either. They're like, I'm not doing this to.

[Zach]

To the reverence thing, though. Like, if you look at, like at a wedding ceremony, like you stand in reverence for the bride when she walks in, you know, like when she walks.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Past you, you gotta be standing for five songs, that's three minutes. Each song at 15 minutes, that's a long time.

[Zach]

But then Again, like, who says it's gotta be five songs? That's where, you know, we're talking about that drift. Like somewhere along the line that became the norm and it got taught in as you like to say, cemetery school or whatever, you know. And it's like, that's how we do it now. And I think we just, you just start doing it. I don't think people think about this stuff. I don't think a lot of this is intentional. I think it's back to that question of you don't ask why. It's like eventually when you don't ask why long enough, you're 2,000 years removed and you're going, how did we get here? And it's like nobody's thinking about it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Nobody's thinking about the knees of these 90 year old people.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I will say this, like so a problem that I had from this last week. Yeah. Pastor Rick goes, he's, he's talking and he goes, and don't worry, we're going to wrap it up. Like, he's like, I see, like I see the time and that's the part for this. What do you mean? Are you done? Are you, when are you done? Matt does the same thing. Do we have time? Do we get time?

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Because you get nasty about me going too long.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Never, not once right now.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Get that look at your eyes right now.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It's done when you're done. But I have been to a church with a female pastor. Like when I was very young. Not by choice. No, no. Is it is. I'll explain it another time. She would preach sometimes for 30 minutes, sometimes she'd preach for three hours and people would just leave and never come back. And I'm like, yeah, like you've gotta.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

There'S a middle ground. There's a healthy middle ground.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Timing, like being like, well, it's 10:45, so now we've got to get to the prayers out and the old and maybe just say what you gotta say. Yeah. Also within reason.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

And also I don't think we need the guy who goes, and our God is such a awesome God.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

You like how I turned his mic off this week? That's why I'm back there, baby. I got the power.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Unbelievable. Dude, I'm gonna take that button thing. But I, I'm like, I don't know why we need this guy who speaks with the treble in his voice to, to, to do the thing. I don't know why. He's just up there for like five minutes. And then Pastor Rick gets the baton There's a lot of baton passing. It's all very confusing. If you're so wild, go ahead.

[Zach]

Well, you keep making all these church references that I have never been to a church that looks like half of what you guys are mentioning. So it's like you're in a very Pentecostal church or what are. Are you in a Pentecostal church right now?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Pentecostal, they keep. They bring snakes every once in a while. It's weird.

[Zach]

Oh, yeah, that's fun. Yeah, that's good. I do think some of it's cultural. Like, you know, how long should you preach for? And stuff. It's like, know your. Know your room and like, how long do you have. Have them captive? Because if you're speaking beyond that, why? Why just for you? Or is it like, because you're actually reaching them, you know? So. Yeah, you're right. Like, you can go way too long. You gotta know, I'll preach so long.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

That a dude fell out the window. I mean, that's true.

[Zach]

That's true.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

That was a real environment. Like, he showed up into town, they were waiting on him. He got there, he preached and preached and preached and preached. It's just. It was a real thing. It was a real situation with real people in a real place.

[Zach]

And so if it's real and happening, keep it going, right?

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I mean, yeah, yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

But you got to be present.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

You have to understand when you're expecting this to be, like, on a schedule, it just makes. It just makes it weird, man.

[Zach]

Yeah, No, I agree. I agree.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

That's it. So the question is. Yeah, if you want to do church, like, I guess maybe the mistake is, like, you want to talk to a couple hundred people, like, you want to help. Yeah, 100. A couple hundred people. That's probably misguided, but here you are with this. And now this is like a weird thing because now there's this platform that you can talk to not just a couple hundred people, but maybe a couple. You have a couple of clips that went into a hundred thousand.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

No.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, you do.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

You already know that. Don't say that.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I don't think so.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Stop it.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

He's.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

He just wants.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

He wants us to say it again. 100,000 is you talk to a lot of people. Yeah. And this is completely unnatural. You got no way to disciple these people. But should you stop doing this? Because this is not. This is weird. Well, I. I say it all the time. This is. What we're doing here is weird. Yeah, but we're still doing it. What do we do he goes, oh, do they need all the lights that, like, does the church need the 501C3? Do they need all this money to fund? And I was like, we're sitting in a room, like, with I don't even know how much money of stuff.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

We didn't take donations to pay for it. Like. Like, it's totally different. You're saying two totally different things. Like, you guys paid for all this stuff. You didn't ask people to send you donations to pay for it.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

People paid.

[Zach]

And I think that's part of it, man, is just being straight up, just being real. Like, what. What am I trying to actually do with the money I'm asking for? Like, what is the point? Like that. That's huge.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yes.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

But, yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

So the question is, then, what are they trying to do? Like, what is the church trying to do when it's. When it's buying all this stuff and it's trying to make this production? Like, why is it trying to produce in such a way? Is it trying to spread the gospel?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I don't know.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It's very confusing.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I almost gotta give, like, credit where credit's due. There's a lot of things that are severely wrong with JWs, but when you see them go out into the world with their carts and like, they're trying to.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

They were Germany, bro.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, they're everywhere. And they're, like, approaching you and they're like, have you heard about Jesus? And I'm like, not in the.

[Zach]

They approach you. Most of the JWs I see don't approach because they. They just have to be out there. So they don't actually engage.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

There is a lot of that, but it's still like, they've created. And I'm not saying you should do this, but I'm just saying they've created this program where, like, you at least have to go out. And if you want to not approach people, that's one thing. But generally speaking, they come and knock on your doors.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Right?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I mean, I used to have JWs ring my doorbell and I'd be like, oh, no, get in the closet. You know, Like, I'd be mortified that they were. That's just. I don't know how.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Why.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That's why I dealt with things when I was a kid. But, you know, that aspect of going out into the world, whether or not you are going to do anything is up to you. But they're pushing the bar further to create a situation where you're much likely, much more likely to, you know, make disciples of men by going out and preaching the gospel. And so obviously there's a lot of issues with Mormons. Yeah, Mormons do the same thing. Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And they're effective and they're effective at it.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

They're very.

[Zach]

Even though it's heresy, but they're effective at it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

But that's what, you know, it's like they have a lot of things wrong and something. Perhaps.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Perhaps that's a lesson to be learned there. It's like they're. They're spreading and, you know, shout out to our Mormon fans, but they're spreading something that is, on its face, ridiculous. Like it's.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It's.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It was made into, like, the laughing stock of Broadway and. And for good reason. But they are spreading it and it is growing. And you look at it. I mean, even Islam is growing, I guess spreading it in jail or whatever.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Showing up and stabbing people and stuff like that's a way of.

[Zach]

So to be clear, Christianity is growing, just not here.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Like, it's growing in China where you can't practice it. It's growing in Middle Eastern nations where you can't practice it. It's an underground movement where it is thriving.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

So, I mean, only thrives when it's real, though. That's the whole point. When it's part of the American culture. They did the big show with the Charlie Kirk thing and everybody's singing along. That's where you just see a church is dying, dude. Like a. Like a lazy, like, over, over fed, over moneyed, giant system. That was those churches that never grows, man. Like, only the real church that, like, lives in hardship and places where you don't get personal gain for being a Christian. Because that's what you're describing in China is like, you're not doing it for personal gain. Like, you're only doing it because it's real. Yeah.

[Zach]

Because you'll probably die for doing it. Right. Like, it's your life on the line here. You have nothing to gain.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, I guess again, we're. We're back. And I don't. I don't. I want to respect your time, Zach.

[Zach]

Hey. Hey, hey. Hey. I texted my wife. I have as much time. Oh, I did it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That's crazy.

[Zach]

I did the thing, dude. Okay, that's funny. You feel.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

You feel stupid.

[Zach]

I feel pretty. I feel pretty good right now.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

You have a few more minutes.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

You were saying something before.

[Zach]

Can we hit those three other pillars? And then I. Yeah, no, he's.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Okay. So we're not up against the hard finish. We're going to keep going.

[Zach]

Yeah. If that's cool with you. Yeah, you guys are good. So. So, like after the Enlightenment, which was in the 1700s, but by the way, you then get well. So these aren't in. These aren't necessarily in order. The Reformation technically takes place before that. Right. That's like 1660. But through the Reformation, then you get the ser. It sermonized it. It made it all about the sermon. So it is about listening to the pastor now because now it's not a priest right now it's a pastor with the Reformation. And so it's about the sermon. And the pastor becomes the head, that is the disciple. Then you get the Industrial Revolution and maybe this one's big for you guys because this systematized it. This is where the system kind of gets built. Because, like out of the Industrial Revolution, that's where you get like the modern system for like what school looks like, where everybody is taught exactly the same, everybody's treated like a sheep. That is to learn, not even to learn to memorize.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That's where you get the work line too. Like the standardized factory work. Exactly what the. The school was meant to emulate.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I, I'll just push back again really quickly though, with this show. Something that we, we've learned the hard way. If you don't systematize something, it just either nothing gets done or shit goes haywire. And it's like that has been a big like for when people see the episodes that air. Matt still doesn't even know. There's like, I don't know, 32 steps.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Maybe, something like that. I remember counting it up. It was insane.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, it's insane.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

You're a business. A business should have systems.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

But there is, there's something to be said about doing it to the degree where you micromanage every aspect of it. And I think when you do that, you inherently remove the spirit from a thing.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And so let me, let me be clear. It's not the system that's bad. It's that the system becomes that everyone is to be treated exactly the same and everyone learns exactly the same. And everybody brings things to the table in the exact same way. And we just know that's not true. We're all gifted differently. We're all built differently. And Jesus's system is the Holy Spirit working through a bunch of differently gifted people. It's like when he talks about the body. The body has many parts. A body can't be made up all out of ears. That body does nothing.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That's a hideous Body.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's awful, right? Like, it need the ear, needs the eye, the eye needs the foot, the whole thing together. He mentions an ear in the passage. But like, but the point. The point is, like, every single body part comes together for the whole church. We in the industrial revolution are like, it's all just. It's all eyes, it's all noses. It's. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, no, you have. People are individuals and they. God speaks through different individuals, differently. His Holy Spirit, like, he uses us as conduits for His Holy Spirit. And so when we gather together, I'm going to learn something different from you to you to you. Like, each of you are going to bring something different to the table and I'm going to bring something different to the table because God uses our individualness.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

That's a great point too, about the.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Let's go ahead, kick that again.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Kick the. Out of it.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

About the body of Christ. Because, like, me and my family talk about it sometimes that, like, you know, if you were to take, like, a lungs and a heart and a kneecap and some fingernails and some eyeballs and, you know, hair follicles and.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Put it all on the table, it wouldn't look like it was part of the same body at all. It wouldn't even look like it was from the same planet if you took all this stuff.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

And so it's very weird that, like, modern American church culture that everybody can start to look the same. I don't know that everybody should be looking the same. Like. No, the thing that we have in common is love. Like Jesus said, that's how they'll know that you're my disciples is by love. So we should have that in common. But as far as, like, all being exactly the same, it's. It's not supposed to look like that. We are supposed to be a vast.

[Zach]

Vastly different body, which is what makes denominations crazy, because they attract all, like, people. Like, if you look at an Apostolic Pentecostal church, you're going to see a lot of people that are wired very similarly. If you go look at a Calvinist church, you're going to see a lot of people that are wired exactly the same or very similarly. And it's like, not that I'm. Yeah, I got my own qualms with the Apostolic Pentecostal Church. I think there's some heresy stuff going on there as it's modalism. But my point is, like, Pentecostals need Calvinists and they both need Wesleyans. And that, like, we each bring something different to the. And I'm not saying, like, that we need all the doctrines, but I'm saying, like, we need all of our natural wirings that God gave us working together.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

And furthermore. And sorry, in the. In leadership, I'd say it's the same way, dude. Like, amen. If you look back at great preachers of Time pass, take a guy like William Grimshaw, a great Methodist preacher, you read his story, and he went to everybody's home that was in his parish.

[Zach]

If you will, because he's a shepherd.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah. He went to everybody's home. He ate with them, he read scripture with them, he prayed with them. He knew where each of the members, if you will, of his church were at. Let's not do that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I'm sorry about the name.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

He. He knew. He knew how everybody in his home lived. They say Tozier was nothing like that. They said, A.W. tozer was just in a crow's nest office and just came out and preached fire. Every time he preached, dude. However many days a week he was doing it, he was just preaching fire. So I don't know, to me, that's more of. Maybe even like a prophetic role. Like, he operated in the prophetic, not in the shepherd role. Like, like, not in the pastor role. Like, not even remotely close. But for all of us, we just call both of those pastor because, like, that.

[Zach]

Bingo, dude. They shoved them all into one role.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah.

[Zach]

They put it all into one thing. And that just. That weighs heavy.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And then you see, these pastors are just worn down today because they have to function as all five. Like, they. Like, they have to function as all of the roles that's supposed to be in leadership, where it's. It's just not supposed to be like that. It's supposed to be multiple elders. Paul told Titus Gordain, elders, plural. It's like in any kind of, like, congregation or whatever you want to call it, there should be multiple elders, not one singular. There should be prophets, there should be apostles, there should be evangelists, There should be teachers. And some of those kind of operate across different lines, too. They can kind of.

[Zach]

You might be. You might be a couple, right?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

You want to know something funny, man? David's favorite pastor. I actually. I was able to. It's like, when I talk to people, I don't like to just, like. I don't like to talk to them and get, like, the. Like, you get that from people. Hello, how are you doing? And there's, like, this thing I I keep like poking and to see who's underneath. And I, I did one time and I was like, how are things going? You're. There's a transition happening here. This is going to be crazy for you. And he told me straight up. He was like, he's like, I'll be honest with you. Like, I feel like, like he's, he said, he sound like he's being squashed a little bit. He's like, I'm not able to even like get into the Word the way I want to because there's so much. There are so many duties with this and like, especially the transition just as the, as the pastor. And I told him, I was like, that seems like it's a big problem. Like, you should, should you be doing this this way? I don't, I don't know any answers. And he was like, I don't know. But it's like, this is not. What I'm saying is this is not something that is like we're, we're bringing up and like, wow, that's profound. The people that are going through it are being squashed by this.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yes, but we do have the answer for that. It's in. Is it Acts 6 or 7 where the, the Greek widows are complaining that they're not being taken care of, but the Hebrew widows are. And the apostles say, hey man, let's look out dudes full of wisdom and full of the Holy Ghost and put them over that stuff, over that business stuff so that we can stay in prayer in the Word. So we do have biblical context for amen. No, if the guy's bringing forth the Word, like, he's not supposed to be messing around with all the other shenanigans, dude. He's supposed to be like, in the word of God in prayer. And then if it is a one day a week thing, like, whatever, but let's just say it is. It should be fire, bro. Like, people should be shocked at like what's coming forth. They should be like, dang, dude, this guy hits. But if you're so engaged with all the worldliness of the church system all week long and then somehow you're going to preach some heavenly message, I don't know. That's why it's not happening.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I feel like that's really. Pastor Rick's spot is when he starts talking about Scripture. He has such a great way of unpacking it and then, you know, imparting this on you. And you could see in the way he delivers it, like he loves the Lord. That's like the real genuine thing that comes across. And then in the other stuff it's like, you know, he's just going through these daily operations. But yeah, man, it's like if you have a guy that can do that, that's like that in touch with it, that you can tell genuinely loves the Lord and believes this is the word of God and is trying desperately to help you understand this thing, like that's almost all that guy should be doing in my opinion. It's like, stop crushing this 80 year old dude. Well then let him just do that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

But then this gets to a question. Somebody had brought this up in the chat and I thought it was interesting. So they said all churches and denominations can do it. Unfortunately, JW and Mormons alike are quick to ostracize and push out anything bad. Yeah, this idea of pushing out of having this small tent because I don't know how many people are you really realistically going to have in leadership? And then how does this go? Like how many different directions is this eventually going to pull in? Like, you know, pull the church in or pull the body of Christ. And there has to be something to be said for that. Like about if we are. We're supposed to be one body with that, that are, you know, unique but all put together. Yeah. And walk in the same direction. How the hell do you do that? There has to be a system. You have to systemize it.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

It's called God. I mean like that's the crazy thing is we like a lot of effort. Well, how can I support, how can the church exist if we don't take people's tithe? I don't know, maybe trust God. I don't. I mean, how did we open a coffee shop? I didn't have $200,000 when I said I was going to open a Christian library.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Now you're rich.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Now you're rich.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Do you see what I'm saying? You just trust God. And I know that's like not a cool thing anymore. We're like, no, we need to make a man made system to make this work. But I'm just saying that's biblical.

[Zach]

But okay, so to all your points here, like, can I just like power through a few different Bible verses real quick and just make a point about all of them? So like James 5:16 says, Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. So confess your sins to one another for the, for the purpose of laying down those sins. Right. We jump over to Galatians 61 2. Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently, but watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. The third one's Hebrews 3:12,13. It says, See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness first. Thessalonians 5, 14, 15 says, and we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive. Encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone, make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else. And then finally, Romans 15:14 I myself am convinced, my brothers and sisters, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with knowledge, and competent to instruct one another. I read all those things right there because it's like, those can't happen on a Sunday morning. Those are instructions given to the body to do for one another. And we look to Sunday and we go. My pastor's supposed to do those things. And like, to your point, top, like, keeping those things in line would be impossible for a pastor to do. Keeping all that functional when we're all together for the good of the team to move towards Christ and we're all keeping each other in check and all moving towards Jesus with the Bible guiding us overhead like the Holy Spirit's our teacher. Like, let the Holy Spirit teach. Right? Like, that's how we keep things like that in check. It can't. Like, there are overseers, there are elders that, that see over that and try to keep things in line when they veer. But all in all, like, it's up to all of us working together to make it happen. Not a priest class of professionals. Does that make sense?

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, that goes back to that thing where it's not supposed to be this thing that just happens once a week.

[Zach]

That's right.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I'm supposed to just go and have this experience and closeness to God for an hour and a half. If you. Hour and a half, hour, 20, whatever, once a week. This is a life, not a day.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

What's the. What is the exact context of the Romans 14? Because if Paul is going to look at them and say, I'm convinced that you're going to do the right thing. Like, what is that? What does that even mean? What kind of relationship do you have?

[Zach]

Or he says, he says capable, like, right. Like I'm convinced that you're full of goodness, filled with knowledge, and competent to instruct one another. He's saying you're able to do this. He's not necessarily saying, like, it's gonna happen. Right, but he's saying, like, you could be doing this, like you should be doing this. You know what I'm saying?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

That's like. I guess this is the idea of the micromanagement, right? The helicopter parent sort of thing that is very popular in, in recent history. Maybe just our generation.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, I mean, definitely the people that raised us didn't do that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

They didn't care.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

And then I guess we raised a bunch of kids and did that to them.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

But yeah, yeah, they're doing it in the church too. And it feels like, you know, you're. You are controlling a thing and you're making it predictable and you're making it safe. But in the end, what. What are you producing? I. That remains. It doesn't really remain to be seen. I guess Matt has already decided what it's produced.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, it's. It's almost.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And I don't think you're wrong, it's.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Almost a bit of a moot point, right, because it's like, you're not going to change this system. And this system isn't the end all, be all. We've already established it's not supposed to happen one day a week. So the only thing to say or do about it is to live your life this way.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

But the system, the system is prime for change, if this makes any sense. Like.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, but you're still changing a thing that's only happening on Sundays.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Well, no, the church, like seven days a week, it's there the whole time. It's just. This is just a building, you know, this is just a place with things in it. It needs to have people there doing and doing the thing. But like. Yeah, I don't. I don't know, man.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Well, yeah, and if there is going to be people paying for these land in these buildings, the least you could do is let them access it seven days a week. Like, if your congregation paid for all that, bro, you should have something going on there. Again, if you have fully operational apostles, apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists and teachers. Doesn't mean it's the same guy teaching every night. Doesn't mean it's the same people teaching every day. But like, and especially depending on, like, how many people belong to this church or whatever. Like, why are young people paying for daycare? Like, why are. If there's old people who are, like, retired and not even sure if they're, like, life means anything anymore, you know, they want to have meaning in their life, and then they have young families, like, in their church, paying the world for the world to train their little kids. Like, that's just a crazy thing. I mean, there's. There is.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Because we live in a world where if you give my kid a peanut and he asphyxiates, I'm going to sue you.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Also, the last time I let an old person watch my kid, he pulled his tooth out.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Oh, that's right.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah, I did. But they just.

[Zach]

They just want to know why your kid's not wearing socks. That's the question. Why isn't this kid wearing socks? My grandma.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Every single time, I'm saying there's really cool things that could be happening with these buildings that people are paying for.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Let's go and talk to Pastor Rick and be like, let us gain access to this place. Seven days a week, we want to.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Open up a coffee shop.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I wonder.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

That's kind of what it is. It's like this community where people come in and out of how does it sustain itself? And then. Are you doing a show on. Does it even matter if you're doing a show on Sunday? No, I haven't.

[Zach]

I have a thought on this, but really quick. Just, I. Because I think before we get an answer to this one, one more pillar, if you will bear with me. Evangelism personalizes it, and that means it takes the focus off of the community, and it puts it on the individual. And now it's all about the individualism. And so it's your personal prayer time. How do you feel? What does church make you feel like with all that said, Top, you were getting at? Like, how do you fix this? If I bring this back to a conversation? Top, you and Matt got into it over an issue a couple episodes ago. I can't.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Can you believe that?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Did you?

[Zach]

No, it wasn't the Jews. It was.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Color me surprised.

[Zach]

Tell me. Tell me if you remember. But, like, you guys were talking about how every girl that it's got an only fans and how you don't want your son growing up at an age where that's the world. It's been colored by, like, everybody. Everybody's got an only.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Fans say that all the time.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No, stop it. Zach's about to slam dunk on you. All right, stop.

[Zach]

No, I'm gonna. I'm gonna draw, like, a bridge here because, like, I think you were both right in the way you came about it. But I think there's a third. Well, I think. I think there's a third way, though, that make. Makes the whole thing work together. Like, top is right in that. Like, it sucks, and we should be mad.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

What did you say? One more time.

[Zach]

I'm sorry. I forget.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

What you're dealing with here.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Get.

[Zach]

Just hold on to it, because there's going to be a mat is right, too. But top is right in that. Like. Like, we should be mad that we live in a world filled with, like, every girl walking down the street's got a porn station out there, right? Like, only fans, that sort of thing. Like, that's crazy. We shouldn't want that. That should be fixed, because that sucks for the world. Matt said, I'm just gonna live my life for Jesus, and it's gonna work out. And he's also right. Like, God's will will be done. Everything will be made right. But then I think there's a third way, which is, like, we are called to go plant the seed of the gospel in the hearts of even those OnlyFans models, the people that are doing these things. Because the point is, you and me can try and change the world all day. Or as a lot of people like to think today, if I elect the right guy, the world will change for the better. And it's like, that's crazy. Things don't happen from the top down. They happen at the. At the grassroots, and they ripple out into the greater reaches of the world. Nobody changes without Jesus Christ giving them a new heart. He takes away their heart of stone. He gives them a heart of flesh. He transforms them. He brings them from death to life. And so the way you fix everybody having an only fans is you teach an OnlyFans model that Jesus, the Lord of the universe, took you out of your sin and your death and he saved you. And maybe that seed doesn't plant, but maybe it does. And maybe for her, then she can start changing, and then she starts preaching that gospel into the lives of the people around her. And eventually OnlyFans is on its way out because there aren't enough people that like it. Like, now I know that's thinking way too big.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Like, you're right about that, though, because it's like, it doesn't matter if the seed takes right. This is a thing that I. I've been becoming more comfortable with. You're called to do a thing. Don't be concerned with the, what if this doesn't work? Or what? Go and do the thing. You're called to make disciples of men. Go and make disciples. You're worried that this person's not going to be receptive. Shut up and do it. I had to learn that the hard way with the whole going and talking to Clint thing. And then I had this whole, you know, debacle that took place because of. I'm. I'm pretty convicted in the idea that it was because of disobedience. I was called to do a thing. I chose not to. I leaned on a bunch of excuses as to why I shouldn't do it. And then I ended up getting the end of the stick for disobedience because of it. And it's like, I understand a little bit more now. It doesn't matter. You're the. The. The. The guy who plants the seeds after the seed is planted. That's in God's hands.

[Zach]

Bingo. And maybe. Maybe it's multiple touch points. Maybe, like, you come back and you check on them again. Maybe. But, like, if you're getting red lights all day and they don't want anything to do with you, Jesus says, wipe the dust from your feet and move on. Like, sometimes that you got to do that too, right? You got to be in constant prayer over that sort of thing. Did we lose him? Is he gone?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, he didn't like that one. He's like, I gotta go.

[Zach]

Yeah. He's like, I hate this guy.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I understand. He's. You know what it is? He's old. We live in the villages, and this is an elderly community. And. And so there are, you know, Matt's one of them people that are a little bit seasoned, long in the tooth towards the end of their, you know.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Experiences here, their reign.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

And as far as stamina goes, ability to focus. He's actually showing early signs of dementia, and it's something that we haven't. It's. It's a touchy subject, and I. I looking for a way to bring it up to him.

[Zach]

That got dark fast, man.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I don't think that he would remember if we did bring it up to him. Anyway, so. Oh, he's back.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

All right.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Don't tell him I said that.

[Zach]

So.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, so.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Wow, you're so stressed, dude. What?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

No, no, he's talking about the. The thing with Clinton and the talking or whatever. Right. Listen, I get it. I get it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

It is what it is. But, yeah, I do think that that's what we're supposed to do is we, we plant those seeds and then we just, you know, whatever happens and if, if like, you know, you were just talking about, if there's all these attempts and somebody's not hearing it, dust off your feet and leave. But which is interesting because it's not saying it's going to work every time either. That's not the message here. It's not that it's going to work if somebody's not receptive to multiple attempts, you know, go somewhere else, you've got a job to do.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Well, that is the issue when you do try to make it work every time is you end up changing the message to make it palatable. Because the Christian message is not very palatable to the flesh.

[Zach]

Yeah, right.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

You've gotta, you've gotta die to self. Like, like you're a sinner. You gotta die to self and give your life to God and you owe him that. Like people, you know, you have to change it to make it palatable. And then people go, oh, I think I like this whole Christian thing.

[Zach]

And to that point, man is like, when we look at the current church and we go, here's everything wrong with it. Well, everything wrong with it's going to be sin. Because that's how everything works. Like sin is the thing wrong with everything. Right. And so it's like the way we fix the brokenness of the current church system. Well, I think it's twofold. One, everything we've said thus far, I mean, maybe everything we've said thus far is like, why can't you just start a church out of your home? Why can't you just start meeting with people out of your house? You don't need a building, you don't need a guy who's a professional. You need the Holy Spirit and you need people called by God. That's what you need. Beyond that, if you are in the middle of the 501C3 system, start getting rid of all the junk. Look, my church is currently trying to go, how can we distance ourself from all the 501C3 garbage? Like, how do we make that a thing over here? Maybe the building is run by its own little committee and they worry about all the day to day legal garbage and then we can just go and we're just the church and we're just going to be the church and we're going to do church and we're going to get rid of all the crap that isn't church.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, that'd be nice.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Like those Things are tied together, though. Like, that's the thing.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, until somebody brings the mold and then makes that the new standard. Right. It's all about.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

You just need money to do that. Yeah, that's just the fact. I mean, to do what? I mean, if you want to have people in a. In a place that's not being rained on. He sent me a church that was a tent. I said, no, thank you.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, I'm not going to that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Not going to attend.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Not the only reason you said no.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

But the same thing. He goes, oh, why don't we go and donate, you know, the, the charity funds to people directly in the hood? I said, I'm not doing.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Doing that either.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

You know, somebody else is a better man.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

It's a good time.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Somebody else is a better man than me. There's many of those right in my comfy.

[Zach]

Okay, so. But what, what do you guys bring to the table, though? Because, yeah, maybe you're not the guy that decides how. How we just stop it. No, that's B.S. like, you guys. You guys are talkers. You guys are talkers. You know how to reach people. You know how to level with people. Use that. Let somebody else that knows how to distribute money to the people that need it do that. Lean into your gifting. You don't have to do it all, but get a good group of people around you that are going to help make it all.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Say the top is actually on a reconnaissance mission, if you will, at the 501c3 that he's currently at, because he's got plans to open his own, as Hicks has requested, to open his own church. And he's going to somehow do some kind of music that actually is worship. No, I go where it's not just a cover band.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And he's gonna, like, you want to know my plans? I'll be very upfront with you.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I go kill everybody at Blue Letter Bible.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, I go, yes, first and foremost. No, I go there number one, because my, my parents go there and they've been bringing my children. So I went to see what it was about and I said, okay, I should stick around and check this place out because my children are developing here and they're doing, like, whatever you can say about the 501C3 system. And the youth pastors are passing for this, but my kids are benefiting from being in this.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I respect that.

[Zach]

And I mean, amen.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I'm. I'm there and I'm like, I can volunteer. I can help them in a way, because I, I know Some stuff. I also don't know some things. So while I'm in that system, I say, hey, what's up with this av. What's up with this production here? And then I learned that program, and then I run it for Matt show on Straight Bible. And then they have a professional recording program. That's.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I mean, I knew it.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And they have. And they have a professional honesty, and they have a professional sound. Why should I not? This is what I've done my entire life, everywhere I go. I. I started off working construction, and I was cleaning from a basement after Hurricane Sandy, and then I said, I, you know, I was hanging out with one of the carpenters, and he's building a staircase. I said, how do you do that? And he showed me. And then the same thing. I go to the mta, and I'm just swinging a hammer, and there's a guy operating machinery. I say, hey, what's up, bro? What that. What's that button do? And then he shows me, and then I do it, and then I drive it, and then. And then. It's just the escalating scale of doing that. Why would you not do that? This is a. This is a resource. And also, I'm helping, and it's like, I don't really see. The only downside is that I'm helping to sustain a system that has a lot of obvious problems. But if I don't help, what is it? Is it going to fail? Because I already left the church and I said, I'll leave here. I used to organize the music for the church. You know, they won't. They still exist today. It doesn't matter what I do, kids.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Is the. Was the most difficult thing for us was like, yo, if we leave this 501C3 system, like, what about the kids, man? And. But we. We made a decision, like, we weighed the pros and cons and thought it was better to not raise him in that system. But I would 100 respect anybody who says no. We weighed the pros and cons, and it was better to keep the kids in the system. Then I totally respect that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

That it's not there. Not that they're in the system. They go once a week. This is like the kids. No, no. I mean, the system would be like. Like being completely indoctrinated by. They go once a week, and then the rest of the. Pretty much seven days a week, they're being dealt with by me. So you could imagine what being raised by me is like. They just come here. This is just supplementary stuff. They get community. They read the scriptures, they do, like, activities with. And I'm like, this is great, man. And I think. I think that that's great for my kids.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

The other six days, they get Mr. Nasty.

[Zach]

Other piece of this that is crucial is like the. The leaders that currently exist within these structures. Like, I know there are people like me that are wrestling with these things and, and the change you have to bring is like, you got to be up front. You can't let your paycheck, you can't. You can't let your livelihood get in the way of that. Somewhere a long time ago, I said the worst they can do is fire me. And I just started preaching what's right from the front. And it's like the moment you do that, all the weights off, it's like, okay, I've already recognized, like, I've got another job. I work at a barbershop. I'll let that sustain me if, you know, if need be completely. I'm trying to get there. I'm trying to get to the point where I can only take a paycheck from the barbershop and take no paycheck from the church. That's going to make me feel better. But my point is, like, the worst you can do is get rid of me. I need to start speaking this truth. We need more pastors that don't let their livelihood and money strong arm them into getting away from what we're really supposed to be doing as the church and give them what their itching ears desire.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

It's tough because everybody's in expectation of living the American dream. And it does beg the question, should all the pastors in America be living the American dream? I don't know. I don't know if they should, man. If our message is that, hey, man, eternity's at stake and that's the most important thing in the temporary realm is not important. But then the world especially. But even the Confessing church, like, looks at the pastor and goes, well, it sure seems like he loves the stuff of the temporary realm. He's living the American dream just like everybody else. Then we end up in this situation where the world is saying, why would I believe the church? The church doesn't even believe what it's saying.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

That's true. But I don't think there's. There's not much merit in being poor. I think if you're be. If this is just me, yeah, poverty is a curse.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Amen. I'm not saying live in poverty curse.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

But it's like people who Embrace that are stupid. Money is a thing that you can get. Everybody has talents, everybody has ability to do something.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I know Zach's point. You can end up in a, in a really sketch situation for sure, depending on it like that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Whereas today's day and age. Matt, there's a way like these, like Zach, Matthew, Matt. Zach has a podcast that he stopped six months ago, but he has a talent of talking to people.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

He should still be doing it.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, well, yeah. And, and this is a.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

This is.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

This right here is an avenue to get yourself out of that system. And if idiots like me and David could figure out a way to build.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

This to what it is now, we can all agree.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

So what do you agree with? You know, what I'm not going to address.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Unbelievable.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

But I think the point is that's like we have, we have people within the system. And, and Pastor Jose, before he was like, he left the church, he's like, oh, I want to think. I want to open up a podcast. He wanted to use, like, church infrastructure to do. And I was like, that's an interesting idea, because what's going to happen there is. Well, I mean, it's going to be weird kind of co. Own stuff. I don't know who really owns this, but when, if you monetize this correctly and you build this correctly, you have a microphone to talk to whoever you want. You have freedom because you have money coming in from what you're saying. Yeah. And there's something about that, about the time that we live in now with, like, specifically what we're doing here, that you can do that. And there's really no excuse. I mean, if you do, if you can't figure out how to do it, and there's a lot of tricks, talk.

[Zach]

To people who do, and that's not bad at all.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And that, that might be a, like a very strong solution for these people that are in it. But then also with, with that, I think you're going to get a lot of weirdness, you're going to get a lot of heresy. You're going to get. Yeah. Strange stuff coming out of it. So I don't know.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

But that's, that's one part of it is the preaching through pod, the podcast model. Is that what you're saying? Like, that's like. Sorry, that's like one part of it. But then there does need to be the real community part too, where you are meeting with real humans and it's real life. Yeah. And so people can listen to podcasts and get fed and learn the Word of God that way. A lot of people can get it that way, but then they still need to be a part of a group that they're meeting with that they know and love. Like, as long as I was ever not in the 501C3 system, I was still always in a Bible study. I was still. Always had some group around me, and it changed over the years, but there was always some group that I was intimate with that entire time. And you do need to have that. Like, we like the preaching and the Bible's learning can really happen much more effectively through the podcast model than it can.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Not to be, not to be like, like, I don't know, like, egotistical or braggadocious or whatever. We were just kind of talking about, like, you're in this system, and then the people go, behave this way or right. And before it's like, well, I'm a civilian and I'm. I'm civilian. But like, yeah, behave this way or I'm excommunicated from your community.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

What the.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Do I care about your community? There's 300 people here. Maybe if it's a good day on. On the show, I don't even know how many people we can talk to. So the dynamic is now reversed. And I also, I have no ties, no obligatory ties to you monetarily. I can come, I can say what I want. I have this freedom. I also should be careful with what I'm saying, but, like, somebody like Matt that is going to go and give a message on a platform like this and reach all these people, if you go to a church, you're. You're an asset to that church. Not just an asset, but you're also somebody that they should be looking at and going, oh, I. I better. It's. I better not excommunicate this guy. I better. I kind of. Maybe I should look at what he's doing because he's garnered quite an audience here and he must be doing something correct. If, if they're smart, if they're not smart, they might want to push you out because you're actually giving good criticisms of the church. But do you see the dynamic there? But. And I'm not saying anything. That's not. That's just what it is. That's the existing dynamic of what is happening here. And I think that that does change that. That changes the church. Maybe that's how it changes.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Yeah, yeah. Going out and doing it. Like, I didn't get a committee together to help me open a Christian library. We just did it. It we didn't, we didn't get, we didn't ask for donations. We didn't like try to get a bunch of people behind us to help us do it. It was just like, okay, we are the church, like, what should we be doing? And my wife and I came up with the idea to do that, which doesn't, which doesn't mean that other people should be doing that.

[Zach]

Everybody.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

You didn't change, you don't change the church from your own location. Now when you're doing straight Bible and then you're getting messages and emails or whatever about like, yo, you just, you just kind of like tore this down. Scripturally, not tore it down, but like what you said scripturally is like, damn.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Well, that's the goal with straight Bible, right? Is you just go Bible verse by Bible verse by Bible verse to where when people are arguing and disagreeing with you in the comments, you're like, yo, you're disagreeing with the Bible. Because, because I didn't go on some tangent about something.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I'm just saying maybe this, maybe this is the tool, like the tools presented to us now. Like, it's a little bit different. Like Leonard Ravenhill and all these other guys, like, they didn't necessarily have this tool. This is a tool that's very, and this is a, this is still low level stuff. This show is like not huge.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Imagine you're crushing, dude. I don't, I wouldn't say it's not.

[Zach]

You guys are on the up and up.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It's like going up. We're at the bottom of it. But I'm saying like you, you double, you triple, you 10x this, it's not unheard of. What happens to that? What happens to what Matt is saying? Like that gets heard. And then especially in the community, you go to a church, they're going to know that you do this. They're going to know that you said this, this. Because it's going to be wide reaching and they're going to either have to push you away, which looks really bad for them, or they're going to have to consider what you're saying. Because what you're saying is right. And maybe that's where the change to the church system comes in from like that guy that's in it. But like now there's this weird thing like you're in it but you kind.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Of like, you're like subverting the, the power dynamic because there's a, there's a progression. You know, you're supposed to go here to here. To here, you become the youth pastor to the, you know, whatever. Whatever. This is. Like, no, I'm just a dude that's helping with maybe the audio. I just happen to have more reach than anybody here.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

That's the first thing Zach and I talked about, I think, was he was like, yo, so what do you do then? Like, I want to reach people, and I want to do my part in the kingdom and do, you know, fulfill my destiny that God made me for in. You were like, how do I even do that outside the 501C3? And then I think you said something to the extent of, like, oh, you're just, like, doing it. And then God just, like, provided you a. A platform.

[Zach]

Right. Well, see, so, I mean, a lot of my conversation with you, like, it didn't stem from, like, not knowing what I should do. But my thing is, whenever I see somebody who is like, dude, instantly I was like, he gets it. He's real. He's actually doing the thing. And anytime I meet somebody like that, I want to know what they're doing and how I can also take that and add it to what I'm doing to better myself. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, I'm out here trying to do the thing, too, in a different way. But my big thing is like. Like, where I'm really struggling right now is, like, turning this big ship. It's hard to turn a big ship. It's easy to turn a little ship, but it takes a whole lot longer to turn a big ship. And this thing's been going since the 80s, and it was a country club for a long time. And now. Now I'm seeing it shift, though. Like, the climate in my church is shifting from, like, country club all those years ago to, like, a bunch of people earnestly seeking God.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Amen.

[Zach]

And so, but. But I'm looking at this and I'm like, but is there a better way still? So now I'm preaching, trying to say, like, hey, look, I'm glad you're here on Sunday morning, and I don't want you to not be because, like, you want this thing. And I'm here, and we're all here, and we're doing it. But at the same time, it's vastly more important that you, through the rest of the week, have a community of believers that you can lean on and grow together with, because you're not going to get that from me on an hour on Sunday. And that's that. That's the realization of, like, the full. It's Holistic. It's not like a quick answer. It's like. Like I was thinking about, like, nobody wants to put in the reps. Everybody wants to just, like, be in good shape tomorrow, but they don't want to go to the gym. And it's like small group, that community. That's reps. That's how you're growing. You don't just get big. You don't just look good. We all want that on Sunday morning, but you're not going to get fed like that. You don't just show up. And now all of a sudden, my golf game's great. You have to go to the ramp change. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, that's the community, and it takes both. And I think people are realizing that, but it's not shifting hard. It's not shifting fast. And that's the part where it really bogs me down, you know?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Well, because, like, no offense, Zach, but, like, you got to be in the gym every day. If you're cutting hair, you're not preaching the gospel to people. And that you got.

[Zach]

Again, on the contrary, my friend, I do more preaching from behind the chair than on a Sunday day. I probably do more for the kingdom at. At my secular job than I did in the two years I worked full time as a pastor. I mean, that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Dude, that's a problem. That's a. That's a huge problem. Well, how do you. I don't know, man. Like, how do you. How do you talk to even more people, though? How do you. How do you make a living for yourself doing that?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That's.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

This is the tricky part, because you do need money to survive. And then if this is your job, if you're moving.

[Zach]

I'm fine. I'm good. Yeah, I'm getting there. I'll be fine. I got barbering. I'm good, dude. Like, I'm not worried about money. Like, there are guys that don't have that, and they do have to ask that question. I. I don't. But, like, that is real. Like, what are you gonna do when you've banked your whole life? Like, we've got all these guys coming up through, as Matt says, cemetery school, which is hilarious. And they're being told, like, this is going to be your career. And it's like, yeah, but, like, if the church keeps declining at the rate that it is, given the blip up from, like, a Trump presidency and the death of Charlie Kirk, which has affected the church, but still the question remains, who's going to disciple those people? Or is this just going to be a quick fad that's over? Because that's a real question. But, like, we got all these guys. It's like your life is going to be based on you being a pastor. And it's like, maybe we should stop telling people that. Maybe we should start, like, pushing up at least a bivocational way of this. Maybe we should start saying, like, hey, like. Or at least asking the question, would you still pastor people if you weren't getting paid to do it? Because I bet there's a whole lot of guys today that would say no.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

And I think. I mean, historically there's been such things as, like, a parsonage, right, where, like, the pastor was taken care of. He had a home, maybe on the church property, and it wasn't a mansion, right? It wasn't. He didn't have a Runway for his airplanes and stuff, but he had a humble little abode for him and his family, and he had enough money to kind of, like, do his thing. But he wasn't a wealthy man. He wasn't living the American dream. But I think, yeah, the weird thing about to go through the cemetery school system and become, like, a pastor today is just like, you're in high school, everybody starts asking you, hey, what are you gonna do when you grow up? And some kids like, man, I'm going to college. Some kids are like, I'm gonna go into a trade. Other kids are like, I'm going in the military. And then this. Under that kind of pattern, under that kind of model, under that kind of mindset. Some kids are like, well, I'll be a pastor. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do a pastor. It's not necessarily like, this great calling of their life or, like, this great meaningful thing. It's just they have to pick a career. And some people pick that as a career within the American system. And that's why I like the American superstructure that kind of, like, imposes itself on the American church culture. Like, we've just. We somehow got to get out from under that and just get, like, a straight biblical eternal model and an eternal mindset. And, like, people should be comfortable. Like, I think this is what you're saying. Saying, like, yeah, I'm going to be a preacher and whatever money I make for it or whatever, I'm just going to trust God.

[Zach]

I'm going to trust God, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and then all that clothing and all that food and all that shelter and all the basic Necessities you need will be added to you. Right. Like, first you do the thing, worry about the money. Later, it'll be there. God's got you, even if that's by his people taking care of you. But it's sort of like, I've heard you guys say this. Like, you know, you just trust the system and the money will come kind of thing. It's the same thing. Like, do what's. And I'm not saying, like, you're going to be wealthy. I'm saying God will take care of you and you will. You're not gonna die. Like, and, well, and maybe you will, you know, maybe you're gonna be martyred. Like, maybe you will.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Maybe you'll lose your head.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Would you still preach if you can't live the American dream doing it right? If the answer is no, then don't sign up for it.

[Zach]

Right. And if BlackRock keeps buying all of the housing, none of us are going to be living the American dream soon. So. Hey, but, you know, whatever.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That'll be everybody's shared problem.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

So.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I don't know.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I also have a problem.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Maybe I got a problem with that because it's like. Like, I just feel like they're saying, like, you. You should be not wealthy is ridiculous to me.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Where are your priorities?

[Zach]

Yeah. I mean, dude, look at. Look at Job. Look at Job and Abraham. Biblically, they're wealthy, dude, but they knew what to do with it. Okay? My dad. My dad would get hit with like, something terrible every, like 10 years. Like, he'd start to get a leg up. And then like. Like, my dad owned like 11 rental properties in my hometown, and he was doing pretty good. And then all of a sudden, they raised taxes and he gets hit with like 70 grand out of nowhere that he didn't know was coming. Well, no more of that. He starts doing pretty good. We buy a house. All of a sudden he gets a triple bypass surgery because he has heart problems he can't take. He can't. He has to pay it all out of pocket because he doesn't have insurance. He gets hit, we have a fire and we lose everything. Like, three, four years later, our house and our business burn. At the the end of exact same time, he loses everything. And he looks at me one day and he says, zach, like, why won't God just let me get a leg up? Like, every time I start to do well, he knocks me back down a few steps. And I said, have you ever considered that God doesn't like who you would be if you had a lot of money.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That's an interesting thought.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

That's another idea about what money is and how people hold on to it or how they're so eager to get it. And it's like, no, this is. I say it all the time, say to my kids. It's a thing that you can get. You have to. It's a thing that you use to do more of what you want to do. Not something to, like, live lavishly or, like, be ridiculous.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Well, I think that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not to trigger the chat, but they're, like, great. They're a great model and that they're, like the wealthiest dudes on the planet, you could argue. And they live in tents.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

This is another thing, too. But not just. Not just that, but, like, the wealthiest dudes on the planet. If somebody came up to me with advice, with life advice, and you're poor, I'm gonna be like, yo, good luck. I'm not listening to you, because you haven't even gotten off of. I know, I understand that. But you haven't gotten fat.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Passed for a space.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Most people, no, it's not about loving money, but it's like, if this is a basic thing and you can't figure this basic thing out. And, you know, maybe some people say, well, you know, I've been doing this.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Or that, or I can't figure it out, or don't make it a priority.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Most people can't figure it out, and they still want to preach to you.

[Zach]

But, Top, I gotta push back on what you just said, man. Yeah, because.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Well.

[Zach]

Well, because, like. But you do take advice from a poor man every day, every time you open your Bible. Because Jesus stepped down and made himself a servant. Like, he made himself a nomad.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

He's a king. He's a king in heaven, and he came down here. Sure. But this is like. Like, all right, so this is monetarily poor. These people are not kings. These people are people. I'm just saying, if you can't figure out some basic stuff, good luck talking to somebody that doesn't know you.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I think it's a fair point.

[Zach]

That's fair. That's. I see what you're saying. You're saying, like, by worldly rules, like. Like, I'm not gonna see you as. I see that. I get that. I get that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And listen, I'm not even necessarily talking about myself. Like, I'll sit and I'll talk with people about that, but I'm talking about, like, when I'm thinking about in general, the Person just walking by a fat person gives you health advice on what to eat. Okay. You know, no, absolutely not. It's the same thing. You're gonna give me advice on how to live when you can't figure out how to live yourself.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

That happened to me all the time during COVID It just seemed like it was always bad people, like, reprimanding me and telling me how to live. A healthier.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Somebody that's telling you how to stay safe, like, okay, what is happening?

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Right?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

So I, I, But I. So being wealthy, it's another tricky conversation, right? Because I'm like, I'm not saying chase all the things of the world, but. But I'm saying, like, hey, you know, figure out how to do stuff in the world to clean your room before you go out there and change the world. And I feel like that's a little bit of your room. If you can figure that out, we can talk to people.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Well, and I think there is a element of God qualifying men in the natural realm before you with natural authority, before he trusts them with spirit realm and spiritual authority. There's. I think there's an element of that, but I just, I don't.

[Zach]

Sometimes it's the opposite, though, too. Like when Jesus sends out the disciples, the first time he sends them out, he sends them out with nothing. He doesn't let them take a sword. He doesn't let them take anything but, like, the clothes on their back. And he's teaching them reliance on God. The second time he sends them out, he sends them out with money, with a sword, with all the stuff, because they learned how to do it without the stuff, and then they can be trusted with the stuff. And I think it happens that way. I don't disagree with what you just said, Matt. I think it happens both ways, I guess, is what I'm saying.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Well, I think it probably happens the first way. When you're 17, 18, you should be working shit jobs at McDonald's, and then you should figure it out.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

But those guys are a good example, too. They were all working men that had proved themselves in the natural realm. And now, Amen. With some spiritual authority. That's not what you're talking about with the average pastor, bro. They've been a pastor. They've never worked in the real world. They don't even know. So that's another thing is like, how do they relate to the people in their congregation if they haven't raised families? Like, that's a huge thing, bro. You got a pastor, he hasn't raised kids into Adulthood yet. But you're still, you still have little kids. Like there's still so many trials you're going to go through. Personally, it just puts you in a weird spot to be preaching to, to people that have been through that.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

It's.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

It's just there's a lot people telling.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Me that haven't been refined.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Right.

[Zach]

Once again, I don't disagree. But then you do have issues with like, you know, Paul, you know, saying like, not everyone should marry and like Paul himself being single, even though we might think like he might have been married at some point. Paul is giving marriage advice. Paul is giving advice on kids. Like, and so there's some level of it where it's like when I'm just speaking from the word of God, that's one thing. When I'm speaking from personal experience and I don't have it. Yeah. I don't carry weight with you.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

So I think it's both this idea that, you know, one guy with the mic is responsible for everything.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Right.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Is there a place for young men who are clearly called to God and can preach and have young families a role in the church? 100. Nobody's saying no. I'm just saying this is another one of the dangers where you got one guy in charge.

[Zach]

Amen. Amen.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Dude, the other day I'm gonna. We gotta rapid. David's getting nervous. But no, the other day he's hungry.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

He'll be fine.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I had cold Matt. Yet the hot dogs wore off and we, we were talking about stereotypes. We were just talking about stereotypes.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

These are not necessarily good things most of the time, but you use them to survive in a way. Right. Like in this earthly realm. Like you kind of like. Well, you'll pre. Judge a situation and that'll keep you, for the most part, not just safe but like, it'll keep you kind of like on the. The right side of things.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Pattern recognition.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, pattern. And I know this gets into weird territory, but that's. This is part of the pattern recognition. Can you get very good advice from a poor person?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, there are outliers. But generality.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, the generality is.

[Zach]

Is it the usual.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Well, maybe not about money, but maybe about some other stuff.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

But bridges to sleep under, which cats.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Are safe to eat, or maybe even about money. If they talk to you about the mistakes they made, that, that that's what caused them.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I also wanna. Yeah, that's true. I want to apologize. When I was talking about you, the.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

This is nice.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Shut up, Matt. When I was talking about the barbershop thing. It's not. I'm not trying to, like, knock you or anything. I'm just saying, like.

[Zach]

No, not at all, dude.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, I just. I wish I'd rather see somebody like you doing the thing all the time rather than something else. But, you know, Bart, if you're cutting hair and you are doing that thing too, I didn't mean to, like.

[Zach]

Well, no, no, no, no. Totally fair, man. I mean, look, because to your point, like, my buddies that work for, like, Eli Lilly, they can't do what I do. I'm just in a position where at work, I can do that. Like, if you work for a major corporation, you're talking about. Jesus, you're probably fired. You know what I mean? Like, I'm in a position where I can preach from behind a chair all day and ain't nobody firing me because my boss is a Christian. You know what I mean?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what job you lose that. That's the thing about the Great Commission is there's no bar for entry.

[Zach]

Amen.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Where you. Amen moment.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Anybody? It. For me, it just pains me like somebody like an Ed Mabry. I mean, Matt. You and Matt, I guess, have these similar occupations where you're kind of. You could do this podcast thing too, and then you can talk to people in real life. That's rare in most. Most occupations, but Ed Mabry is doing something that's not related to what he's doing. And I'm like, Like, this guy should be doing this all day, every day.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

And he would, but he has to do this other thing. I'm like, he will.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

I mean, it looks like his is just gonna take a little time to develop.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I think so.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

I think that's just what I meant by. I wasn't trying to take it like.

[Zach]

Like, no, I took 0, 0 offense to that. I. This is wild. You guys are apologizing to me after you rake me over the goals so hard.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I think it's story was great. I have, like, these glimmers of remembrance, but I think.

[Zach]

No, you were. Hey, you were cool on the story. It was my shameless plug for my podcast that I wasn't even trying to plug. I have to say that.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No, because I. I already.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

He doesn't even.

[Zach]

We already set it down. We already set it down. I wasn't trying to plug it, but. But yeah, yeah. Hey. Okay, so, like, not to keep you guys any longer, but I do have to say, if you are ever interested to talk to an Indiana resident, about some weird stuff around here. I would be totally interested in talking about that. But just let me. Some, some.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

But, but there's, there's.

[Zach]

Dude, there's a lot of tunnel stuff around here. And my buddy Mike has heard some crazy. Like he had some weird prophecy stuff spoken about Indiana from, from Ireland, India, Britain, like all these places know that there's like spiritual stronghold stuff going on in Indiana. And I don't know how they know this or why they're talking about it, but it just keeps coming up. And then you guys brought it up and blew my mind. So I am, I am intrigued to. To hear more about that in the future.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Now I'm intrigued.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Well, you come here. Well, we'll have you back on again. We'll hit that. We. You know something interesting. You're the second guest today. Today that we had that is in Indiana.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

That is interesting.

[Zach]

Yeah. Where are they from?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Indiana.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Indiana.

[Zach]

Okay.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

I don't know. I don't know where the heck.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Yeah, they're in Indiana. Yeah, Wes is in Indiana and so are you. So it's just odd.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Wesley, he's. He's the guy that worked on the, the Meadow project with Tony Merkel.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

He's.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

He used to work with, with Tim Cass. He's out in Indiana.

[Zach]

Oh, really?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, he'll hold a lot of those sentiments. Like, yeah, it's a really weird place, but I mean, and then we have our, our buddy Colin, who's out in Indiana. But yeah, the cave systems, the weird spiritual stronghold that's going on there.

[Zach]

Do you know the tunnel systems built under Indianapolis?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, so I wonder, is it built or is it. Is it a remnant of. Or not a remnant, but an extension of the Appalachia cave system? Because I don't know if that cave system does stretch out to the west and it ends somewhere around, what's the one that's to the left of Indiana? If you're looking at the map?

[Zach]

Illinois.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Illinois. It ends in Illinois. And then of course, you know, there's that whole thing with the garden.

[Zach]

Garden of the gods.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Yeah, there's something going on out there. I would love to, but I think it's a little bit too adventurous for, for the taste of my, my co hosts here, the both of them. But I want to go to systems and I want to, I want to try to understand what's going on there.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

You want to do a documentary we will never release?

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

No, I don't want to do a document. We need a documentarian who's like, yeah, I just do it for the Love.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Of the game player.

[Matthew Hefner (Merchant of Brown Water)]

Oh, man.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

But, yeah, we'd love to have to have you back to talk about that, because it's a fascinating place.

[Zach]

I mean, I can't. I can't talk too much to cave stuff, but I've got some. There's some other crazy stuff going on in Indiana. Just little things, but I don't know how it all connects, but. But, yeah, I mean, may not make for a great show, but it could be interesting. If you guys ever want to talk again, that's cool. If not.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

All right, well, this is. It's been a great episode, man. I appreciate. It just so happens that a lot of the things that are kind of on our mind end up just rolling into the next episode that we do. And I think this is an important conversation. You know, I hope that. I personally hope you continue your podcast, because whether it's at the church or it's at the barbershop or it's. Or it's, you know, on this podcast, that's what the job is. The job is making disciples of men, and it's just another platform from which to do it. And you never know what happens with Salty Saints. You might just be one episode where the thing catches fire, and all of a sudden you realize you're. You're talking to huge people and you're winning over souls for the kingdom of God.

[Zach]

I'll be quick. But, like, some of what we ran into, we were actually. We were on Life Audio, which is a. They're. They're owned by Salem Media, which is, like, what Charlie Kirk's podcast was on. And, like, we just ran into some things where, like, they wanted us to treat it like a business they wanted us to be all in. And we were like, hey, we're pastors. This is. This is an outlet for us. This isn't like, we're not trying to make a business out of this right now. And so we just never really pursued it in that way. But I have been interested to see what could come of that, and I might do more. I might shift the vision of it a little bit. It was getting a little stale on the direction we were going, but, yeah, I appreciate it.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Well, even in this show, I can guarantee you there's somebody out there who this episode spoke directly to, and this is going to help them in their journey and their relationship and their walk with God. And it's. It's the same thing, man. It's just a matter of.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Of.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Of, you know, not to put it in such crude terms, but volume. It's the, the what are you putting out? You're putting out information that helps people develop a closer relationship with God. Put out more of it. Keep doing more of it. Whether it's at the, the barber shop, whether it's at your church, or whether it's, it's online. I mean, you know, the good news is it's already set up. Salty Saints is already there. You know, you've already got this thing established. You could hop right back in it and do it. And who knows? Even if every episode only touched one person, isn't it worth it?

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

Well, for sure it is. It is a business, you know, I get it. Yeah. It's just the nature of. If you want it to be something, then you're gonna have to take it serious, but I think it's something to take serious.

[Zach]

And some of that right here.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

Papa Steve says ask God. Yeah, dude, pray on it.

[Zach]

Amen, dude. Amen. A lot of it just boils down to bandwidth. Like, it, it is a lot. It is a lot. And man, like being a pastor alone, a lot of bandwidth. Working a full time job, a lot of bandwidth, you know, like. And so it's just like, it's hard to balance all of it. But yeah, I, I'll, I'll consider that heavily. How about that? And I will, I will pray about it. So.

[David Lee Corbo (The Raven)]

All right, well, I think that's a good place to, to land it. Thank you, Zach. I appreciate the conversation, man. I appreciate the time.

[Zach]

Yeah. I appreciate you guys having me and talking about this, man.

[Top Lobster (Mr. Nasty)]

This was great. We will do it. We'll do something again. We'll figure out something fun. Maybe Matt will sit in it. But. But until next time, guys, don't forget to obey, submit and comply.

[Zach]

When the last trumpet sounds.