Dr. Douglas Hamp (2:18)

Yes, you can find me@douglasamp.com also on Amazon. I have about 15 books there, so you can check out that my. My author page and et cetera. I'm in Denver, Colorado. I lead a small congregation out here in Lakewood, to be specific. So if anybody is out here, please come and say hello. I'd love to meet everybody. And yeah, I've been a lifelong Christian. I have just loved studying God's word. I don't. Probably a number of years ago, I really dug deep into the Nephilim and I wrote three books on that. Corrupting the Image, 1, 2, and 3 Tons of Fun. Love it. But, man, there's so much in the Bible. There's just so many gems that are exciting to dig into. And I'm really excited about this one that I feel like the Lord has been putting on my heart for at least 10 plus years. So it's pretty exciting to be able to finally share this.

Matt Hepner (3:16)

Yeah, it's great. When I initially reached out to you, I know you saw the name of the show. You're like, nephilim Death Squad. And if an email could read an exasperated sigh. And I get it too, like, because, you know, the people will often see your body work and they call you and they'd be like, so for us, we're the. I guess we're the Nephilim guys now.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (3:35)

Well, I would say we're more aptly the crazy people in the community.

Matt Hepner (3:39)

But they call you to do a certain dance, and you were like, I'm actually looking into something more interesting now. Can I talk about it? I'm like, yeah, let's. That would be.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (3:46)

Well, I. I don't want to get straight into that. I wanted to ask because we were.

Matt Hepner (3:49)

Gonna make them do the dance, not.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (3:51)

Not the whole dance. But I am curious about this idea of corrupting the image. Can you just give me a brief overview? What are those? What. What are people getting into with those three books?

Dr. Douglas Hamp (4:02)

Well, let's see. When I. So I first wrote my. I wrote my first volume of that back in 2011, and I dealt with Genesis 3:15. That was a text that kept coming to my attention. And I thought, wait a second, there's something going on here, right? God says, I will cause enmity between you and. And the woman between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head and you will strike his heel. And I kept thinking, okay, so if her seed refers to Messiah, that's how it's been traditionally interpreted throughout the church age. Who in the world is, you know, your seed, right? And I kept thinking, goodness, this is pretty weird stuff, right? And then you flip over to Genesis, chapter six, right? And you have. In the days that men began to all play on the face of the earth, that daughters were born to them, and the sons of God, they came, and they took them and begot these Nephilim, okay? Something weird is going on here. And a lot of it, I had to let go of my own presuppositions or what I had either kind of heard growing up or not really heard or just ideas like. Like, is this really in the Bible? This is really weird stuff, right? And I started thinking also about what Jesus said, that as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. I thought, oh, my goodness, wait a second, you know, and then you start putting things together. You start hearing about Ray Kurzweil. He's talking about humanity 2.0 and transhumanism, you know, and they're projecting that by 2045, humanity will be humanity 2.0, that we will have transcended the limitations of this. People are talking about that right now in the context of AI And AI is really cool, but it's not going to be something transformative to the human essence. Okay? I mean, it's going to change our lives for sure, but it's not going to change our form. And so the title Corrupting the Image just kept coming into my brain because I'm like, I think what Satan was trying to do is to destroy the image of God that God planted within us. And if he could do that, then he could keep the seed, the promised seed that was going to step on his head. He could keep him from coming. And I think that was the basic plan. And obviously he failed. The seed came, Satan fell right into the trap, of course, but, you know, he. He certainly gave it a college effort. We have to give him, you know, credit for that. And if that worked so well, let's face it, only eight people made it out alive before the flood. I mean, that's. Yeah, I mean, that's pretty impressive, right? I mean, Satan was like 99.99 successful, except he wasn't. And it's a pretty good strategy. And I think he's going to use that same basic hand at the end times as well. I think the Mark of the Beast would essentially be a genetic transformation. It will. The whole idea will be to. To change who you are, to upgrade to humanity 2.0. And I'm actually working on another book series called Immortal dawn. And I'm. I'm talking about some of the mechanisms that will be behind that. The two witnesses. How I think they will come as sort of. They'll be. They'll be viewed as hostile aliens who are trying to take away our. Our way of life. And so the world rally together. The Antichrist shows up on the scene and says, I've got a solution. And everyone says, yay.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (7:32)

And.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (7:33)

And that's when they all upgrade to becoming a God. And they think that they can actually stop the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, from coming back and taking his world. And this is the strong delusion. So in a nutshell, that's kind of my corrupting.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (7:47)

That was a great way of summarizing that.

Matt Hepner (7:50)

Didn't take 45 minutes. No, it actually brought a thought, brought a thought to my head. We were reviewing the Age of Disclosure documentary and some of the criticisms that the people on there were giving were the idea of this Collins elite that would be suppressing disclosure, but they're saying that they're going to be getting in the way of progress and, and the idea of the two Witnesses that would come. And in a sense, how you, you kind of mentioned get in the way of progress because this alien technology that will probably be given to us and presented to us will advance humanity, but it's of a fallen nature and it's probably something we shouldn't be tampering with. And they will be looked at as the bad guy. So it's kind of interesting to see that narrative turned and starting to flesh out right now between the Spielberg movie, between that documentary and other things going on in the world.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (8:40)

Well, we see this again and again, don't we? We see in all of these Alien movies, whether it's Avengers or the Eternals, you name it. It's. It's some hostile force that comes from our universe or outside our universe, trans dimensionally, interdimensionally, and they're coming and they're going to threaten our way of life. And then the Avengers or all the heroes of planet Earth rally together and we're able to push them back. That's the basic storyline in, in Marvel's Eternals, which didn't do so well at the box office. It was, it was an okay movie, but the whole basic idea is that the gods of old are actually the guardians of the planet. And they're basically supposed to be quiet and not interfere with humanity unless something existential happens. And that's what happens in the movie. And then they rally together to fight against the gods. Actually, the, the, the bigger gods, that's basically their, their call is like, we've got to save humanity. I mean, this playbook has already been played. And I think when the two Witnesses come, I think they're going to be the catalyst that will sort of get the tribulation started, if you will. And here's the thing. This is kind of where I've taken a turn. I was raised on this idea that the book of Revelation is God pouring out his wrath on a Christ rejecting world. Essentially, you know, translation, God loses his temper, he's ticked off, and he's finally Going to let the world have it. That's what I was basically taught. And, you know, it was exciting. I was like, wow, this is really cool. You know, God is the ultimate tough dude. But I begin to see a very different lens, and I see the two witnesses coming as the last chapter of a love story. This is where God is wanting to rescue humanity from darkness, rescue us from slavery. Remember back in 2010, the Chilean miners that got stuck, you know, 2,000ft underground? We're kind of like the Chilean miners, okay? And we've been living in the darkness for ages now, and we've gotten used to it, and we think it's okay. And, you know, some dude named Satan basically rose up and is kind of. He's been playing the system, and we're like, okay. And as long as we. We toe the line, you know, we have an okay existence. And. And we think this is normal. That's the thing. We think it's normal. And God is up there digging, trying to get us out. And when he finally sends an emissary, we say, no, we're pretty happy down here. We like our way of life. And he's like, no, no, I. I really want to take you back up to the light. And we said, no, we got it pretty good down here. And of course, the boss, Satan, says, well, you guys don't want to go anywhere. This is the greatest thing you can ever imagine. Of course he's going to say that, because he wants to hold on to his kingdom. This is the only kingdom he's ever going to have. Once God comes and the light begins to shine, the darkness has no place for it. So this is God wanting to rescue us from that darkness, from the slavery. Things that we don't even realize that we're kind of living in. We.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (11:50)

Doug, do you have a thought on who the two witnesses are?

Dr. Douglas Hamp (11:52)

Do you have a theory on that?

Matt Hepner (11:54)

Is it us? Is it me and David?

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (11:56)

Please get out of here. Don't put that on us.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (11:58)

And we don't have a strong opinion on it either way, so it's not like you're gonna step into it.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (12:03)

Well, you know, somebody just texted me. He told me he knows exactly who the two witnesses are. Turns out it's Donald Trump and Netanyahu. I was like, there you go. Okay, that's a different one. No, I. I definitely don't think it's those guys, but I think it's going to be Moses and Elijah. I think when you look at what the Jews were expecting, they were fully expecting Moses and Elijah. To come back before the great day of the Lord. If you look at the, the plagues that the two witnesses are going to bring, they're going to turn water to blood. I mean, that's signature Moses, right? They stop it from raining for three and a half years. That's signature Elijah they can call fire down from heaven. That's Elijah. I mean, it sounds like Elijah. And one of them definitely has to be Elijah because we're told in Malachi that Elijah will come to before the great day of the Lord. And here's the thing on, on the amount of transfiguration, which in my books I show is actually Mount Hermon, that is where Moses and Elijah showed up, right? And I, here's, here's the deal. I think Jesus is so clever. I think he made Satan pee his pants. Basically. He, you know, Satan knew, he knew the scriptures, he knew Psalm 68 that it talks about Bashan, the mountain of the Lord, that the, that ten thousands of his chariots will come from that place. And so when he saw Jesus up there doing the transfiguration thing and Moses and Elijah show up, he's thinking, oh my goodness, is that today? Is this the beginning of the day of the Lord? Those guys have showed up. Oh my goodness, I didn't realize. And he puts it into high gear. He then goes and possesses Judas. He's at the very Passover Seder that Jesus is having with his disciples. And that's when he betrays Jesus. And you know, he says, get what you must do. Go quick, you know, do quickly. And, and then he arranges to have Jesus put on the cross. And you know, Satan falls into his own trap. It's crazy. But this was, this was basically, this is kind of like a false flag. You know, it's interesting. In World War II, before the invasion, on D Day at Normandy beach, the Germans could not decide where exactly the Allies were going to invade. But they had been listening to all these reports by the allies who said that they were going to land at Pas de Calais. And they just kept this up. And they even had inflatable tanks that were positioned in the north west side of England so that it would look like that they were going to strike at Pas de Calais. But it turns out, of course, that they landed at Normandy beach on what we call D Day. And it was, it was a ruse. And I think that's what Jesus did is he had a ruse. He had Moses and Elijah show up and Satan. Oh my goodness, this is crazy. This is it.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (14:59)

Well, that's that's one of the, I guess, prevailing theories, and that seems to be one that most people are comfortable with, the Elijah and Moses angle. I wanted to go back.

Matt Hepner (15:08)

I just wonder. I wonder what they. They'll look like. Like, I don't know, we depict them as dudes with robes and, and sandals. And also in this day and age, like, they're going to have to gain some sort of immense popularity, maybe through a podcast of some type, but they're going to have to be seen by everybody.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (15:24)

And yes, I mean, I would imagine they would be out in the streets preaching in such a crazy way that they would go viral.

Matt Hepner (15:30)

Right.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (15:31)

And that would.

Matt Hepner (15:31)

The word.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (15:32)

See that everywhere the word is viral.

Matt Hepner (15:34)

Right. That's how people are. We're going to be looking at it like this.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (15:38)

Yeah.

Matt Hepner (15:39)

Jarring.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (15:39)

It's the first time in history that that could happen. Right. That a thing that's taking place. If there are these two guys that are preaching the word of God and they're warning people and that this would reach, you know, the entire world. The entire world. And, you know, that actually goes along with. What I was going to say is we're in these unprecedented times.

Matt Hepner (15:57)

How stupid would it be if they had a podcast?

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (15:59)

That would be a little disappointing.

Matt Hepner (16:02)

And they're just.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (16:03)

Think of the crowd gathered from all the surrounding areas with no social media.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (16:08)

Yeah, like, I mean, that's what I'm saying now. It would be, you know, it would be, it would be insane. But, you know, earlier we were talking about this idea of corrupting the image and, and basically transhumanism and Ray Kurzweil and all these different things. It's, it is worth mentioning we're sitting in this place where for the first time in, in history, I mean, it does seem a lot of these things have happened before as far as, like, the repetition of Satan's plan and things like that. But we're looking at this potential disclosure. The governments are gearing up to, to do this thing. Documentaries are coming out. Spielberg's coming out with another movie. There's orbs in the skies over New Jersey only, you know, however long ago. And you couple that with, you know, we have neuralink right now, and it's, it's crossed the threshold of human test, human beta testing. And, you know, how long until this is starting to roll out at scale? How long until we see the first person who has some, you know, massive ailment that's rectified by neuralink as an implant? And then they're paraded around as, you know, A modern day miracle. And we're really sitting in this time where transhumanism, the corruption of whether it's the human genome or the fundamental changing of what man is, is right there. And the introduction of some species that, you know, you can only wildly speculate as to what the nature of it is, is also right here. I mean, it's, it's just remarkable. People have mused about this for a long time and they've gone through these texts and they've wondered what could this mean? And all of a sudden we're sitting here in this place where like we have a pretty good idea of what it could mean. And in fact, it's right on the horizon. It could be here in short order a year, two years from now. We might be seeing neuralink rolled out. You might know somebody with it in five years.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (17:56)

Yeah, you know, and I think that's all of the amazing backdrop that we have to apply when we come to Revelation chapter 11 talking about the two witnesses. Because they're not just, they're not coming into an ancient world. They're coming into a very, very modern, high tech, you know, transhumanist. We haven't quite arrived, but we're on the path, that kind of world. And they're going to come. Look, we, we know what their basic message is because they're, they're clothed in sackcloth. The sackcloth was a sign of repentance. It was a sign of humility. This is basically God saying, hey, I'm coming world, you need to come back to me. Repent, you know, turn from your evil ways because the king is coming. That's the basic message. And the world may not take notice at first. However, they come armed with power, they come armed with signs. And so they cannot be ignored. We know they're not going to be ignored because when they're finally killed, all the, the whole world is going to rejoice. These guys were basically cosmic terrorists. I mean, think about it. If you stop it from raining for three and a half years, let's just think about this logically for a second. If we don't have rain for three and a half years globally, that's going to stop it. Well, from raining.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (19:14)

Oh yeah.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (19:15)

And then when it doesn't rain, crops don't grow, forest fires happen, we're told that a third of the trees are going to be burned up. Right. That's all right there in the text. And, and you know, the shipping lines are going to be disrupted massively and all kinds of stuff. And it's Going to raise prices through the roof. So when these two guys who had the power over these plagues are finally done in the world, can't stop partying because they were definitely in their faces. I doubt they're going to have a blog. I have this other guy who's writing to me and he's telling me that he's actually the Antichrist and he's going to start a blog. And I'm like, I'm like, dude, if you're the Antichrist, why do you need a blog? Like, just go do your thing. But I get to know some weird people write to me, and others tell me they're Nephilim. And I'm like, I don't think so.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (20:03)

But you get the same thing in, in on this show. It's, you know, you draw a fascinating crowd. But Top, you were kind of alluding to before this idea that there would be Christians who, who stood in the way of progress if all these things truly are happening. And, and there does seem to be some prospect, let's say, of we're just going to use the, the terminology alien technologies, for lack of a better description as to what these entities actually are. Let's say there's promising technologies that these things can offer us to rectify all the horrifying situations that we're in economically. And, you know, as far as food sources and all these things, war, you name it. And there are Christians that are standing in the way of it, and there are two really loud ones who are standing in the way of it. Yeah, I could see the whole world celebrating their deaths when they're finally martyred. You know, I, I, it's just something that I, I noticed, Top said it earlier within this documentary age of disclosure, just this alluding to an old guard of Christians. You know, we kind of suspect they're talking about a Collins elite, but just in the, in the documentary, they just said people who are in the Pentagon who are stifling progress by labeling these alien entities demons or devils. And who else is doing that but Christians? Right? I mean, so they're not so specific, but you can kind of put two and two together. And I just think if a time ever does come where we're really making progress and there's these promising technologies and Christians are standing in the way that would really help the world turn their back on, on Christ, Christians, the church, all of that.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (21:43)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think, Oh, I mean, the whole thing about alien disclosure is I think we basically had it, you know, I think when in 2017. Louis Ellis Elizondo. He. Yeah, you know, he, he was, I forget the, some really weird name of a department that he was over, but basically it was the, you know, UFO department. A tip. That's what it is. Thank you. Yeah, a tip. And, and you know, and, and then because of that we had the release of the 2004 Navy pilots who were chasing that Tic Tac kind of thing. And I mean, that was huge. That was, you know, I think that was basically the disclosure of the U. S. Government saying, yep, it's real, here you go. You know, Barack Obama said, yeah, there's really something out there, whatever you think about him. But still, you know, I think he was totally legit and saying that there's stuff that we don't know where it comes from. And I mean, these are, these are earth shaking kinds of revelations. And because we have so much media, I think we can't even filter it fast enough as to like what these things really mean. But I think we are not far, or maybe I should say this is that when something does happen, I don't think it's going to really phase the world. I think this has been part of Satan's backdrop. Look, he doesn't know when God is going to pull up the curtain. He doesn't know when he's going to, when God is going to break that first seal and the party gets started. But he can certainly set the stage. And I think that is what he's been doing for the last 70, 80 years, starting with the Foo Fighters back in World War II, which then became flying saucers and then became, you know, alien spacecraft and all these other various names that we have, USO, UFOs, you know, and now they're UAPs. Right? So the terminology changes, but it's the same basic stuff. And there have been many UFO researchers who have suggested that these are far less like extraterrestrials and far more like interdimensionals. And they match up with what sacred texts would call demons, you know, so, so this isn't just the Christians who are noticing this, but this is. A lot of people understand that. In fact, In Corrupting Image Volume 1, I talk about Dr. David Jacobs from Temple University who had done about 200 and so hypnotic regressions with people who claim to have been abducted by aliens. I mean, really weird stuff, right? However, what's so crazy about it is they all had the same basic kind of story, that they were taken against their will, they were in some kind of a room, either sperm or egg was Taken. And people, these ET Things, looked into their eyes and kind of read their minds, you know, and then they were put back. And he says that for a long time, he was very, very exc. About this. This was, you know, this, this close encounter with this other kind. And he. He saw, you know, rainbows and unicorns on the horizon. But after studying it long enough, he began to have a sense of dread because he realized that in this other world, these ET Beings would be the masters and we humans would be the slaves. He talks about there are some kind of a. A semi dimensional, semi transparent, semi, you know, embodiment kind of of being that needs us sort of as the hosts so that they can fully materialize. And. And he began to put two and two together. And he's like, oh, my goodness, this is. This is not good at all. You know, Dr. Mack, who was at Harvard University, you know, he also did hypnotic regression. So between these two of the two of them, they had hundreds and hundreds of cases of hypnotic regressions of where people are all basically saying the same kind of thing, that we are going to be the serfs, these extraterrestrials or interdimensionals are going to be the masters, and we're gonna. We're gonna somehow fuse to become some kind of a hybrid race, you know, and when you read that in these secular journals, you read it and the. From these secular researchers, you're like, okay, this isn't just the Bible that's talking about really weird stuff. This is now happening in academia. It's being tested, it's being researched, and they're coming to basically the same kinds of conclusions that we would, maybe from an opposite angle, but it's the same basic data. And I think the buy what sort of. It's God's word, of course, but what's so beautiful about the Bible is the Bible just lays it out. The Bible cuts through all the jargon, cuts through all the bs, and it tells you, no, no, no, no, no. What looks really good is actually a bad deal. And here's the hard truth of it. And sadly, the world is going to fall into it. The Bible calls it a covenant of death that we are going to enter into. And we. We're going to do it thinking that we're actually saving ourselves, that we're. We're avoiding pain by signing up with the devil. He won't call himself the devil, of course, but, you know, he'll probably call himself Enlil, an ancient God from, you know, ancient times. I think that. That the Belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will actually go up in the end times. That people will believe in Jesus, but with one major caveat. It won't be God Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. No, no, no, no. It'll be yes. You know that Jehovah God from the Bible? Yeah, he's real, but he's an ancient alien. He's powerful, but he's not all powerful. He's just an advanced evolved being. And you can be evolved too. You can have that same kind of God upgrade. Just follow me and I'll make this, this upgrade available. If you just take this little mark, I will grant you that same thing. And that's what I think the mark of the beast is, is it's humanity not wanting to check out from Walmart faster. But it's, it's actually a fundamental genetic transformation of the person so that they're taking on Satan's DNA and incorporating it into themselves. Now, I know some listeners just said, what? Satan has DNA, but I didn't know that. Well, just follow the word, right? If it says in Genesis 3:15, I will cause enmity between your seed and her seed. Well, there you go. And In Cryptic Image Volume 1, this stuff blew my mind, okay, Because I kept thinking, I'm like, what is a seed? Like what really is a seed? I'm thinking about watermelon seeds and sunflower seeds. And so you get, you take off the husk, you get down to the kernel. What's inside the kernel? Well then you get down to chromosomes and then genes, Then you get down to DNA. And DNA of course is the double helix. You've got four nucleic acids AGT and C. And you're like, okay, what's beyond that? And this is where it gets amazing. Because beyond that is information. And information is a non material entity that requires a physical medium. Mind blown. Okay, this is my mind blown at this point because I'm like, wait a second. So inside of a seed is information. It's the, it's the software that is what is making the thing work. It's not so much the hardware that's important, but I mean you have to have the hardware. But, but you know, what is a chalkboard without the chalk written on it and just. Right. Not random chalk or a whiteboard with a marker. And it has to be in a particular order. And when you have the arrangement of, of that ink on the whiteboard in a particular order, you have something called information. Wow. Right. But the information is not the marker, it's the marker. Is simply storing. It's arranging the information. That's what's so amazing about it. And once I understood that, I understood how something that's not physical, not earthly, such as Satan or the other demons and humanity could actually merge together. Because once you are able to. To trans. Transcribe the information into an earthly medium, well, you're good to go. And in fact, they've been able to do this. They've been able to create a DNA printer so that you could take someone's DNA, you could email it to somebody, and if they have a. A DNA printer at the other end, they can print it up. They just use sugar, often coming from some kind of a corn. Corn substance, and they print out the DNA. I mean, it's crazy, right?

Matt Hepner (30:47)

This is like crispr, right?

Dr. Douglas Hamp (30:49)

Yeah, yep, It's.

Matt Hepner (30:51)

This is so. Douglas, this is very interesting because, I mean, we're coming off the heels of a. Somewhat of a debate where we butted heads about all of these ideas, the. The nature of this.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (31:02)

If.

Matt Hepner (31:02)

If there is even a spiritual realm, if there is physical. Physical consistency to these entities that we're talking about, how they interact with us, what is symbolic, what is not symbolic. I tend to agree with everything that you just said right there, but I'm. I'm also noticing why in your books you went from, okay, like, you know, the seed war to the Nephilim, and then you go, wait a second, this. All this stuff is completely related. So if you're saying that Satan has genes that are compatible. Not just compatible, but similar to ours in such a way that they could be implanted in a human woman and then recreate a giant or whatever, whatever. We are compatible in a weird way that goes to, I don't know, some theories about angels being the older brother race of human beings and things like that. But how. How do you. How do you now view this world? The relational universe. And what do you mean by universe? Do you mean like outer space? Or do you mean like interdimensional universe? Or like, where. Where are you pulling these things together and where are you at now with that?

Dr. Douglas Hamp (32:06)

Yeah, so if you go to Ezekiel 28, it talks about the anointed cherub who was in the. He was in the. In Eden, the garden of God, and he was on the holy mountain of God. So basically, we're told that he has a foot in both domains. And what I would suggest. And I. I talk about this in, in this book right here, Corrupting the Image, Volume 2. It's kind of a thick one because I just Couldn't help myself. But I, I go back into, well, all kinds of really fun stuff, you know, ancient Akkadian, Sumerian. And I get into wormholes and all kinds of stuff in there. I, I show that there was a veil or there wasn't a veil between heaven and Earth before the fall of Adam and Eve. Right. So God comes walking in the garden, assume that Adam had not yet fallen, that they would have had these walks, and that Adam and Eve and God were perfectly compatible with each other. But now, post fall, what are we told? That no one can look on God's face, that he is a consuming fire. God tells Moses, sorry, Moses, you can't see my face because you. Nobody can. Nobody mortal can see it and live. You know, and God isn't being just stuck up. God is just saying, I'm sorry, I'm just too, you know, I'm just too powerful. Right.

Matt Hepner (33:27)

Those are the rules here.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (33:28)

Yeah, it's like me trying to hang out in a nuclear reactor. Like, you can do it, but it's not going to work out really well. Right. It'll sort of ruin my day. And that's what happens is when you hang out with God face to face, no covering, no veil, guess what? It's pretty catastrophic. And so what happened is then a veil came down. Now we see it in, in sort of negative statements, if you will. In Isaiah 64, Isaiah says, oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down. So he's asking God, take the veil away. In Isaiah 25, it says that the veil be the veil that covers all mankind is going to go away. We see this in four distinct places. When Ezekiel's at the river with the captives of Judah, he says he saw the heavens opened and he saw visions of God. At the baptism of Jesus, the heavens were open, the Holy Spirit descended. When Stephen is being stoned, the heavens were opened and he saw Jesus at the right hand of the majesty on high. In Revelation 19, John sees the heavens open and here comes Jesus on his white horse. So there are these places where the veil is opened up and then at the return of Christ, it says that the heavens receded like a scroll. That is the veil going away. It's not all space and stars moving away. No, it's this veil that is between us. It's some kind of a dimensional barrier. And the, the best example that I can think of thinking of a movie is in Avengers when they have the sling ring or those other things and they can sort of open up these portals between dimensions. I. It's kind of something like that, you know, I don't know exactly what it looks like, but it's something akin to that, where they're. The other dimension is simply sitting on top of us. And in, in the book Flatland, this is where Abbott, the author of that, he does an amazing job of kind of constructing this two dimensional reality. But right over it is of course the three dimensional world. Well, we're in a three dimensional four if you count time. We can't see the other dimension that sits right on top of us. So it's not so much that it's far and away, it's that it's right here. If we were to think of this on the electromagnetic spectrum, you know, we can only see so much light, but we know that there's way more beyond that. But maybe there's even more than what we think. Maybe there's a whole lot more to that spectrum that we simply are not aware of. We just don't have instrumentation. But if we did, we might be a little bit scared if we could see. So maybe God's good topic.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (36:11)

This topic just came up actually on a recent episode where we talked about like the 2 Kings 6, where Elisha and his servant goes out in the morning. He's surrounded by the camp of Syria. And then Elisha doesn't pray that anything shows up. He just prays that the servant's eyes will be opened. And then boom, there's horses and chariots of fire in the mountains.

Matt Hepner (36:30)

He doesn't just pray that, he says, he doesn't just say, like, I wish that, like, you could change his vision. He says, no, let him see more.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (36:37)

He says, lord, open his eyes. I think, yeah, he's like, open his eyes. But to your point, like, the realm is there. It would all. It always was there. To your point, like right on top of us. Like, right. It wasn't some far away place, it. It wasn't some distant land. It was always there. It was just now visible.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (36:52)

And you have the same, you have the same sort of concept happening with the Dicenian glass. I think it's during the Vietnam War. And this is something that isn't like confirmed. It's really, I suppose, conspiracy theory. But the idea was that they were using Dicinian glass to come up with early versions of night vision or new versions of night vision. But the soldiers were allegedly using this new implementation and perceiving what looked to be demons all over the battleground. And you could imagine that if, if demons are really out there, feeding off of this negative Energy, the sorrow, the despair. They would be at. On a war, on a battlefront. And so, you know, that obviously they had to pull that technology and, and make some adaptations. But it's fascinating because that's an anecdotal conspiracy story that on its own is kind of, you know, you shrug your shoulders at it. But in conjunction with what Matt just said, the story of Elijah or Elisha, that is really fascinating and it just kind of bolsters it. It's, you know, these things pile up and they create, you know, narratives. And you go, well, that seems to be bolstering the idea that. Right. Laid over our own reality is this other one. That's imperceivable. But like you said, if we had the correct instrumentation, and I guess they may have briefly in Diceinian glass, you might see a thing or two. You might not be too pumped about it, though.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (38:11)

Yeah, well, I think there's other ways to tap into that, which I do not recommend. But Ayahuasca is one way to see into that other realm. Again, I don't recommend it. Obviously, death is one way to get there. That's kind of a permanent way to get there. But, you know, probably other substances, LSD or maybe something else. I mean, so here's the weird thing. In the book of Revelation, it talks about a woman riding a beast. Like, how random is that? And yet we have pictures. I have them in, in my book, if you want. I. Guys, pull up on my screen. But there's a picture of a woman riding a beast about 2200 BC. So this is the goddess Inanna and she's on the back of the Ansu bird, which is actually Enlil, who is actually Satan. And like, how did those people have such a clear vision? These are pagans we're talking about. They're not believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were seeing something. They were seeing into the spiritual realm. How did they see into that realm? I mean, I don't have the answer, but what impresses me is that they did see into that realm. And Revelation authenticates the things that they were seeing. Now they thought those were good things. The Bible says those are bad, bad things. So there's that, but. But still, the material things that they were seeing, materially, it's the same stuff. And that is just absolutely mind blowing. So I could actually show you guys, I got that picture.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (39:46)

That would be great if you could bring that image up. But that's where I sit these days now, where it's like, you know, all of These, you know, kind of religions of antiquity talk about very similar things. The Bible gets the nature of these things correct. And. And this is where I depart from people who say things like these. These are strictly symbolic. I do think they are very, very material. There you go. Yeah, right in the middle there.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (40:12)

Dave Hart's got a great book with that title.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (40:15)

Yeah. I mean, God bless Dave Hunt. I. I really like the guy. But so what you're looking at, if you want to bring that back up, I'll explain it to you. This is a cylinder seal. This is kind of a ancient movie. You know, 21, 20, 21, 2200 B.C. they would take this little seal, they would roll it on soft clay, and it would leave this. This. This depression. All right? And so you can see there in the middle, that woman, that is the goddess Inanna, also known as Ishtar, Astarte. Right. So all these different names talk about this goddess, and on. On what she's standing on is the. What's called the Ansu bird. Now this Anzu bird Bird is kind of not really the best title, but that's what scholars came up with. This is also known as the Ushumgalu, the Mushkushu. It's a form of Enlil. Enlil is the actual name given in the Bible in Isaiah 14:12, where it says Lucifer. That's a mistranslation. It's actually Helel, which is the same as the Sumerian Enlil. So she's standing on the back of Enlil. Enlil is. Is lionesque. He has wings. He has some kind of, you know, poison coming out of his mouth. He has a. A scorpion's tail. He's got a serpent head phallus, and he has talons like an eagle. I mean, this is exactly what is described in Revelation, chapter 9. Also talks about the great red dragon. Right? So you start following these little breadcrumbs, and you're like, oh, my goodness. I mean, I've got tons more pictures that. That show this whole idea. But. But you get. You get the idea of what's going on here. So these people were seeing something that the Bible says. Yep. That actually exists. They're just not who you think they are. Right. How they saw that, I don't know. You know, I mean.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (42:09)

Well, these things seem to. I mean, you know, it's. You might assume that they exist outside of the confines of. Of time as we understand it. And so if they do exist in any meaningful way and they're not affected by time, in the way that we're affected, it would seem that if you could perceive them, you might perceive them the same back then as you perceive them now. I think this is the same entity that the Bledsoes are talking about when they're talking about the divine feminine or the goddess. This, this entity that's revealing itself, you know, to, to Chris Bledsoe, who effectively is an abductee victim, and he identifies it as Hathor or Mother Mary, but it goes by other names, many other names. Ishtar, you know, being one of them. If that truly is the same entity, then it's the same entity that you just showed us now. And I happen to think, and you know, on this show we, we go into some highly improvable and speculative concepts, but when you have the, the idea of, of a Jack Parsons and an L. Ron Hubbard in the desert summoning in an entity called Babylon that is a female entity, it's. They, it's described as a divine feminine. I think it's all the same thing and I think it's, it's going to play a crucial role in this, this coming deception. And I think it's gonna, you know, it's beyond me to try to define and, and lay out the parameters of how this thing is going to unfold, but it seems to be that this entity, not symbolic, is a material entity. I can't describe to you the materials it's made out of, but it does exist in some real tangible way that's been perceived by people of antiquity and, and now currently being perceived by a, by the Bledsows is going to play a role in this, this big, you know, event that's, that's going to be unfolding with, with disclosure and, you know, to other people to be called a number of other things, but people in the new age gnostic belief systems, they, they believe this thing is coming. And I believe it's, it's that, that thing that you've shown us there. And we were talking to somebody recently who actually said it was J.T. follows. J.C. is a, a great content creator and he said that he thinks this entity is like a, like a, sort of like a Lucifer, like that this entity has no problem presenting as male or female. And, you know, I thought that was an interesting concept. Once again, you know, in the intangible.

Matt Hepner (44:28)

Something I find. Go ahead, Matt. Something I find really interesting is it in your new work. I see that you're dealing, you're basically putting a bullet in materialism, but yes, you're dealing with this Idea of something like physics not necessarily being rules, but just like a set, a set of circumstances that happen and then. And I guess, coin. I don't. How would you, how would you describe that? But I guess my question would be, how does this reality, this world that we're in, how do you think this will affect these entities as they sort of parse through this veil and start to become a little bit more physical here when, when they approach us? What, what is, what are your theories on that? And, and is that what your book is about, or am I misreading that?

Dr. Douglas Hamp (45:16)

Well, so my new book, the Relational Universe, that comes out in September, I really don't deal with, you know, demonic entities or nephilim, any of that stuff, even though I definitely enjoyed that conversation. But I wanted to get some, to something much more foundational, something more fundamental. Because when we start thinking about stuff, you know, the table in front of you, this book, you know, like, what is this actually made of? Well, it's made of paper. What's the paper made of? Made of trees. Where does a tree come from? Right? We start getting down into atoms, right? We think, okay, atoms are the most basic thing. And the, the word actually means that. It means it's not divisible. Ah, Thomas, you can't cut it. That's what an atom actually means. And for a long time it was surmised by the Greeks, who came up with that idea. And then it carried on until the 18, you know, late 1800s, that, yeah, atoms are the most basic building blocks that we have. And so it was called the billiard ball model of the universe. In other words, that there's tiny little discrete bits, not even bits, is it the right word, but let's call them particles, little things of stuff. And you put you once, if you have enough understanding of how material physics works, then you can kind of figure everything out. And that was, you know, the, the billiard ball or the clockwork understanding of it. And then coming came along quantum physics. Quantum physics turned everything on his head. And ironically, Albert Einstein, who, who wrote some important papers leading up to the, the real true discovery of, of quantum physics, he could not actually accept it. He called some of the implications of quantum physics, specifically quantum entanglement, he called it spooky action at a distance because it just didn't make sense. And basically what quantum physics is. Well, you know, to quote Niels Boris, if you, if you're not thoroughly confounded by quantum physics, then you really don't understand it. All right? So I think I'm Thoroughly confounded by it. So maybe I understand a little bit, but quantum physics does says there's nothing really here. That little electron or that particle that you think is right here is only there because you're looking at it. It. So and if we're not looking at it, it exists as a wave function, and that's the word wave function. It exists sort of as a. A potential. A cloud of potentiality. And this is where it starts to intersect with the Bible in such incredible ways. In Genesis, it says, you know, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Ve' aritzai tatu vavohu. The Earth was formless and void. And so people think, oh, that. That's just talking about how God destroyed the world and he started over. It doesn't mean that. It really doesn't mean that. What it means is that it was not yet formed. Think of cement in a cement mixer. That's going to be your house. But it's. But it's sloppy cement. Yeah, exactly. But it's going to be your house. It's not yet formed. It's still in process. And what quantum physics talks about is this cloud of potentiality. So we can think of tohu vavohu when it says that the Earth was formless and void. The Earth is in this state of a cloud of potentiality. It hasn't taken on discrete form yet because it's still in the. Well, it's still in the process. And then what quantum physics has discovered. So incredibly, this is through an experiment called the. The double slit experiment. There was this question, you know, is light a particle or a wave? And it turns out the answer is, yes, it's both. And what they did is they did something called a double slit experiment. So imagine two slits. You. You fire a single particle, photon, electron, whatever it is, through these two slits, all right? And when they were not looking at it, they just let this thing go, and nobody was there to observe it. They would come later and they would find that behind the slits, they would have a kind of a screen to sort of catch the data. And it looked like it was a wave the way the light was going through it. It said, oh, it's a wave. And they're like, yep, that's. That's for sure. There we go. That's our proof. Then they said, well, let's see how this actually works. And so then they set up instrumentation so they could observe it, but then it acted like a particle. And they're like, well, that's funny. How can it be that when we're not watching, it looks like a wave. And when we are watching, it acts like a particle. Does light know that we're watching it? And this has been done so many times. I mean, this is probably the most repeated experiment of all time besides boiling water. But it's, there's like we can't get around this thing. We don't know how this happens. And how can it be that creation itself somehow seems to know that were paying attention? Well, again, back to Genesis chapter one. What does it say seven times, and God saw that it was good. See, in order for it to go from being a state of potentiality, there has to be an observer. God is that first observer. He saw his creation, that it was good, that it was functional, that it was aligned, it was coherent. And I think we hear the word good and we think some kind of a moral. A moral statement. But it's not a moral statement. This is more a. A functional statement. This is a statement of, you know, how is it working?

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (51:03)

Like a foundational potentiality kind of thing. Yeah, like something that can propagate.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (51:11)

Well, let's say that, you know, we, we build a house together and you come inspect the part that I do. And you're like, oh, that's good. You're not saying that it's morally good. You're saying that it's good because it's going to hold together. It's coherent, it's structural. That is the word that's being used here. Not in that moral sense, but in the structural, it's coherent kind of sense. All right, so. So, you know, I just started seeing these patterns all over the place. And when I kept thinking, okay, what is stuff made of? I mean, what is it really made of? And one thing that sparked my curiosity. I had been doing this study of all these near death experiences. And I mean, dozens of people were coming back and they're saying, everything is made of love on the other side. And you're like, that's ridiculous. You know, I mean, come on, right? But then I started thinking, well, what if it is made of love? I mean, what would that actually look like? What would. How could I discover that? And I started thinking, well, what is stuff made of? And I realized it's not really made of anything. So when you get down to the atom, then you go down to the protons and the electrons, and beyond that you go down to the quarks. Beyond that you go down to the muons, gluons and leptons. And then where do we go? Well, it Seems to be just little energy packets. But this is where it gets really interesting. Let's say I take a battery. Okay, let's see. I got a battery. And the battery. You know that there's energy in that battery. But where is the energy? Right. Think of a Duracell aa. Where is the energy? Well, it's being stored as chemical potential energy. But it's only when you hook up the two diodes, right, when you hook those up, that you actually have the transference of energy. The energy lives between the nodes. That's where the energy is. It's between there. It's in the relationship of. When you hook up those two ends, the positive and the negative, that's where the energy actually exists. And I was like, wow, energy only exists in relationship. That's where it is. Otherwise, it's just stored potential. And that takes us back to Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, where there's. There's all this potential energy, there's this potential matter, but it's not yet formed matter, it's not concrete matter, because it hasn't had a relationship. And then when God sees it and he starts to interact with it, it starts to become something. So what.

Matt Hepner (53:44)

Sorry to interrupt, but this is what worship is. This is what I've been trying to, like, understand and define. Worship is like that. So that's the observer. If. If I'm. If I'm aiming at something, that is what I'm going to be feeding with this potential energy. It's connecting me to the. I'm the positive source, it's the negative, and now it's connected. And it's.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (54:04)

That.

Matt Hepner (54:04)

That's the form of worship. And it's like I've been. I'm. I'm telling you, I'm banging my head against the wall trying to explain this thing. What is. Is it music? Is it proclamation? Is it alignment? It's all those things. And.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (54:18)

Yeah.

Matt Hepner (54:18)

And why do they want it so bad?

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (54:19)

And it's.

Matt Hepner (54:20)

It's this. It's fascinating. Thank you, man.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (54:23)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, I'm suggesting that everything is made out of relationship. You know, it's not made out of stuff. It's made out of relationship, you know? And there's a couple.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (54:36)

Yeah, sorry to interrupt. A couple passages that talk about, like, everything being held together by the word of God.

Matt Hepner (54:41)

Hebrews 1, Hebrews 3. 1. I think something.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (54:44)

Hebrews 1:3, right?

Matt Hepner (54:45)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (54:46)

Colossians 1:17.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (54:48)

Yeah.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (54:49)

Some. Some of these passages. Hebrews 11:3. Just that everything's framed and Held together by the word of God. Is that kind of wrapped up in what you're saying as well?

Dr. Douglas Hamp (54:58)

Well, essentially, because you start looking at language itself. If you. If you just say one word or one b, you know. You know, one phoneme, it doesn't have any meaning. It's only when you string phonemes together to make words, and then you take words, string them together to make sentences, and then paragraphs and then books. Eventually, that's when everything starts to have meaning. It has to be in relationship with something else. Same thing with numbers. One number by itself. Okay, one number, the number two. Right? But you do two plus two. Well, now you have a relationship, and then meanings comes out of that form, comes out of that. Same thing with music. One note by itself is just noise. But you start stringing notes together and you start getting a tune, you start getting a symphony, eventually everything has to have some kind of relationship. And I use the idea of Notre Dame, right? So this gorgeous cathedral. And you see those stones are being held up. You're like, wow, this is really incredible. But stones just by themselves are heavy. And if you just stack stones together, you don't get a cathedral. You probably will get a lawsuit or something. But if you. What. What is holding those stones in place? It's the relationship of how those stones are put together. The builders understood the principles, the. The hidden architecture of relationship that is holding those stones in place after all these years. That's the part that we can't really put our finger on, but we definitely see it. We see it. It's out there. And so in the book, I. I boil it down to three things. I talk about alignment, intent, and repair. Those are the three things that are necessary for any relationship to stand. And if it doesn't, then entropy comes in. But entropy is absolutely needed. Entropy has to. Well, it's not needed, but it's a necessary risk. Let's put it this way. For true love to happen, there has to be the opportunity for one of the participants to say, no, thank you. Not interested. Otherwise, it's just a gun to your head. Love me. And they're like, okay, so entropy is free will. You're saying free entropy is the risk of free will. It's the risk. It's not necessarily going to happen, but it has to be present. There has to be the risk of entropy for there to be the possibility of real love. And that's where God put the. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil in the garden. I mean, why in the world did he put that Tree in there. What were you thinking, Lord? Right? Why do that? It's like putting a nuclear button right in front of my toddler and saying, no, don't hit that thing. Right? But Adam and Eve were fully formed. They had good function. They had great mental capacity. But what they. What they lacked and what God wanted to instill in them was the ability of free will. Because free will is the only way you can have love. The Bible says that God is love. So the only way for there to be true love between God and his cre. His creature creatures, especially Adam and Eve, was for them to say no. And that no had to have weight. It had to have teeth. It had to be real. God could not just override it because, oh, my goodness, they did something wrong. It had to allow the consequences to. To. To. To propagate. And that is what God had to do. I mean, I've been thinking about it in my book. I have a. A little interlude section. I say you get to be the creator. And I say, you know, how. What kind of. What kind of universe would you create, given the opportunity? Would you make one that's more like a screensaver where really cool, interesting things happen? But there's no danger, because the beings in there, while they might look clever, but ultimately it's just good programming. There's no danger at all of any kind of rebellion, but there's also no possibility of any real relationship because any. Anything nice that they say to you. It's kind of like the Truman show, right? It's all scripted. And, you know, that's why Truman lost his mind in the movie, because nothing was real. It was all scripted. And, you know, that would eat at you if everybody around you, they're all pleasant to you, they're civil, but, you know, they're just doing it because that's what they have to do. You knew, you know, in your heart of hearts that would not be love. And that. And if God is love, then he. He wants there to be true, real, genuine love. Love. And for there to be true, real, genuine love, there has to be the capacity for people to say no. And of course, that's what happened. So now a question. Yeah.

Matt Hepner (60:07)

Do you think in. In the spiritual realm, the angelic beings, the Elohim, they have a form of free will, but it's. It's quite strict. If they break it, they're judged, they're done. How do you think that that works in that realm? Because this is still a real. A relational.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (60:28)

Is it. Is it fair to say they don't have forgiveness.

Matt Hepner (60:31)

They. I don't think they do, but it seems like when they mess up, there's a harsh price to pay for that. Yeah. From the stories that we know, yeah, they.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (60:38)

They definitely have free will. We know that from Ezekiel 28. It says that iniquity was found in your heart because of your beauty. Right? So he was overtaken by his own beauty. He made a choice. But here's the thing. He had all the data, right? He. He knew what hand he had been dealt, right? Everybody was playing with their cards face out. Okay? So Satan wasn't lacking for data. He wasn't mystified. He knew everything that he needed to know. In fact, God says that you were perfect in wisdom. Perfect, I mean, or full? He says he was full of wisdom, perfect in beauty, full of wisdom. He wasn't like, half full. Like, you know, for most of us were like, I don't know, like, 1% full. Right. And. But Satan was full of wisdom, so he wasn't lacking in information. And yet he still made a choice. And so because of that, there. There seems to be no possibility of forgiveness. And I think it has to do. I would go back to structure. That's why I'm really excited about the relational universe, because now we can start to see the Bible in terms of structure, not just in terms of whether God is having a good hair day or whether he feels like being a nice grandpa. No, it's not anything like that. It's that these are foundational structural things, and they require structural repair in order for things to happen. And so Satan.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (62:10)

He.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (62:10)

He is fundamentally misaligned to the very architecture of the universe by his own free will. He. He didn't make a mistake. He wasn't deceived. He wasn't beguiled. It wasn't that, you know, he. He started to think, well, maybe, you know, maybe, yeah, this is this way, or. But he deceived himself. And that's the worst deception, right? When you deceive yourself, because who can get you out of that? I think when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and he was talking about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, you know, I have so many people coming to me. Oh, Doug, I think I might have committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I'm like, no, you haven't. You really haven't. Because the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is where you become so deceived that Jesus is saying, hey, I'm trying to help you. I'm throwing you a Lifeline. And you keep rejecting it. You don't want it. And eventually it's like, I'm doing everything in my power to save you, and you are refusing. You're locking the door from the inside. And that is the ultimate rejection of the Holy Spirit. So Satan and all those who followed him, they did the ultimate blasphemy of the Holy Spirit because they decided to lock their own door from the inside, even though they had all the data, they didn't need anything more. And they said, you know what? Just not interested. So what more can be done for them? Is there some new revelation that they're like, oh, had I known that, I would have repented? Had I known God's true nature, I would have acted differently? They did know God's true nature. That's the whole point. They knew his glory. They saw his glory. They lived in his glory. They bathed in his glory. And that they said, nah, no, thanks so much. Truly. What sacrifice? What option, what reset button remains for that? There is no reset button. Not because God is withholding it, not because God is like, I'm sorry. I'm not gonna forgive you guys. No. What. What would possibly turn their minds at this point?

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (64:12)

This is something that they've done. This is. You know, top is. We've discussed this on the show before, where he will almost sensationally say, who the hell wants to be an angel? You know, it would suck to be an angel. And it's kind of like this, you know, verbose thing to get a conversation started, but through that lens, people get mad about it. People get mad through that lens. Yeah. Who would want to be. It's like, it's. You have all of the information that you possibly need, and then look what you've done with it. I mean, as. As far as being fallen goes, there is something. There's. There's real beauty in the idea that God has set things up in such a way as to give us the ability to choose to love him. Because through that frame, it then becomes obvious that everything that happens afterwards, everything that happens after the fall, everything that happens after Adam and Eve, this unbelievable drama that unfolds, is birthed from this very first, you know, decision. And it's almost like, you know, our choice to. For Adam's choice to fall away and to disobey God and to choose, you know, something other than God leads to, you know, maybe. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but it feels like an epic. You know, if. If Homer's Odyssey is truly, like, a fantastic story for the ages. Then the story of mankind that starts with this one pivot away from God that he's allowed us to do, he's allowed us to make that decision or else, like you said, what is it to love him if there's never a choice, right? And it's just gun to your head, then branches off into this unbelievable epic thousands of years, and it ends in. In redemption, and it ends in God finally getting what he wanted from the start. But it's, it's really the story of humanity's growing pains.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (66:13)

Mm. Yeah, I'm just kind of thinking of it, and there's different ways to look at that. But, you know, again, in the context of the relational universe, God allows us to say no. But here's the beauty is that in every relationship, whether it's a building, whether it's a business, it's a marriage, any kind of relationship, structural, physical, or, you know, romantic, there's always going to be some drift, there's going to be some entropy. And so there has to be a mechanism for repair. And that is where God, who God is love. He is the one who decides to come in and fix his own universe. Again, looking at this, any, any system, let's think of a computer. If a computer has a virus, there's often enough resources within the kernel of the software that it can, it can put on a patch, it can create, can fix things. However, if somehow the kernel is corrupted, then the kernel does not have the resources to fix itself from the inside. And so it requires some kind of fix from the outside. That's the only way you can restore it. Every one of us has our own little entropy world. And we're trying to always keep, you know, to stave off that entropy, as it were. We do that by taking in calories, eating food, by living in homes with heating and all these different things so that we don't experience entropy too quickly. I mean, eventually we do, right? It's called death. But, but eventually there has to be. Resources are coming from outside of us. And this is where I was really intrigued by Isaac Asimov. I think he's an amazing author. Obviously he's passed on, but he wrote iRobot, he wrote the foundation series, and he, in the latter part of his life, he wrote two books that I found very fascinating. One of them was called the Last Question. And in the Last Question, humanity has created this, this, this AI computer. And they, they call it AutoVac because they were vacuum tubes back then. But it's kind of funny. But anyway, this computer answers all the questions of the world, and everyone's living in a great utopia. But then eventually the question comes into their mind, what about entropy? How do we overcome entropy? And they ask the computer, you know, 10,000 years into this, and it says, insufficient data. They ask it again 150 million years later, insufficient data. Billions of years later, insufficient data. And eventually, as the last star is about to go out, humanity says, is there any way to overcome entropy? And the. This computer that has almost become like a God, says, insufficient data. And entropy wins. Eventually the lights go out in the universe. There's no more energy whatsoever. And then somehow this computer that's transcendent become like a God, is that it? Then says, let there be light. And I thought, how ironic that Isaac Asimov, who is this staunch atheist, doesn't believe in the God of the Bible, and yet in his own fictitious universe, he understands that there's no way to overcome entropy. The only way to overcome it is from some source outside of this cosmos. There has to be some. Some source that has to come in. That's where Jesus comes in. This is where Jesus comes and he corrects the stored entropy that we have been living with. He took that upon himself. He imbibed it. It became in him. He took on all of that garbage, as it were, and he went to the cross with it. And just like restarting your computer, Jesus had to turn off, and then he had to turn back on. So now there's a new operating system. And in that operating system, it cannot be forced because love can never be forced. It has to be freely chosen. And so we can all choose to have this new operating system called the New Birth and. Or born Again, whatever you want to call it, and then we become part of his operating system. It's really amazing stuff.

Matt Hepner (70:45)

So I like that idea of. It's the idea of intervention where, I guess people, well, I don't know, Tucker Carlson kind of said recently that America has been led to believe that, you know, the spiritual realm is not real for a very long time. And now people are starting to wake up to it. But that idea of an outside source, this intervention, that means miracles could be real. You know, a lot of people say prayers and we're like, what are we saying prayers for? We're just like, you know, thoughts and prayers.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (71:11)

Right?

Matt Hepner (71:12)

Somebody's sick. Thoughts and prayers. No, that. That changes. That changes the idea of what we're doing there. And even penalties, like, if there's an outside source, then we have to actually be keen and deal with those things or at least be aware that they exist on a very real level.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (71:32)

I appreciate the language that you're using as far as all these systems and programs. And it's interesting that we exist in this time where people have really fallen or taken to the idea of like a simulation theory. And it's like, it is an, it's an apt verbiage, all of the verbiage surrounding simulation theory and computer programs to kind of describe what we're going through. But it is, it is lacking, right? There's, there's something that human language can't express. There's an understanding that we can't, given our limited experience here in this three dimensional realm, in this materialistic paradigm, in this, in this physical realm, there are things that we can't quantify and there's things that we can't perceive and therefore we can't articulate. And so it's a little bit of a slippery slope. I see a lot of people that are maybe, let's say like atheists adjacent, who can get behind the idea that, well, there is maybe a perceivable code that is the backdrop. Quantum physics says that they've perceived a code that runs in the background. And it's like, you know, far be it for me to even understand what that really means, but when you hear somebody within the scientific or the mathematics community come out and say that, and then us, in our infinite wisdom, we go, well, I know what Grand Theft Auto is and I know what, you know, World of Warcraft is. And therefore, if you're telling me in those languages that are relatable to my experiences here that this is like that but at a larger scale and, and thereby there's a creator of the program. It's like I, what I'm getting at is I've seen people use this language, which I understand is, is applicable and brush up against the truth, but sort of miss it. In the same way that we said, the Bible has many of these same concepts and principles that any mythology of antiquity would have. But the Bible gets the nature of things correct. There seems to be an absence of the nature. So in other words, you're dealing with very much the same language that maybe even somebody who's a fan of simulation theory would use. But you've not lost track of the nature of things. And I wonder, do you see that? Because I, I, it looks to me like, I see that and it's like people are missing it and you're, and they're so close to it, they're right brushing up against it, but they're subscribing to this as if it's, it somehow makes Christianity obsolete.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (74:11)

Yeah, it's interesting. In earlier drafts of my book I was really leaning into simulation theory and I decided to leave it because I think there's something much more foundational, which is what I'm explaining the relational universe. But, but you know, Nick Bostrom, he really popularized that whole idea back in 2005 or something that, you know, we might be living in a simulated universe. And I think it's very, it's very attractive to people because, you know, okay, so maybe we're just a game running in, in some kid's garage computer, you know, somewhere. That's fine because that, that so called creator doesn't seem to demand too much of us. And he's probably just like us, you know, kind of a, a slob and you know, he makes all kinds of mistakes. But really what people are fighting against, the reason that they like, they sort of gravitate toward this, this real simulated universe theory, is that they're fighting against the caricature of the God of the Bible. And I think we're all guilty of this to some extent. I know that I'm guilty. You know, I have my own caricature of God that I'm trying to shed. I really want to get in touch with the real God of the Bible and I have to let go of my own presuppositions. Some of the false theology that I was taught, some of the theology that I acquired very innocently and with a good heart, and it still wasn't right. And, and what I've discovered is God is so much bigger than all of us. So the simulation idea, it is attractive, it makes sense to a certain extent, and I think it's a pretty good foot in the door if you want to have a conversation with somebody because it leads you to that same place. And that's where I have this thought experiment in the middle of my book where you get to create your own universe, you know. And you know, I don't say it's a simulated universe, but it's the same basic idea is that you're at this, this master console and the computer voice says, what kind of universe would you like to create? Is it more of the screensaver universe or is it the one where you create beings? They do have free choice, but only for good things. Right? There's lots of, lots of guardrails. They can't really make a bad choice. It'd be like you playing Mario Brothers. And you can go anywhere you do anywhere you want and do anything you want, but you really. You can't jump off the cliff. You can never get swallowed by one of those mushrooms or whatever they are. You know, nothing bad can ever happen to you. So, yeah, you can decide to go right or go left, but can you really. Can you really experience any kind of free will or any, you know, anything that's real in that sense? So that's one option. And then the last option is the. The truly loving universe. So I think people like the idea of the simulation theory. They like the idea that, well, there. There's probably a creator because certainly the God of the Bible is no good because he's all mean and mad and he likes to kill people and genocide and all this stuff, which they clearly misunderstand all this. But when, you know, if God. If you were to create a universe and you wanted to create beings in your universe, let's call them little alphas, would you really give them free will? Because if they have free will, you want them to love you, but you have to give them the chance to not love you. And that's the risky part. True love is risky. It's very fact.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (77:43)

If you give them free will, they might likely erect a giant tower and try to breach your realm and shoot you with an arrow or something crazy like that. And then you'll have to smash their tower and confuse them all. Because that.

Matt Hepner (77:56)

That was at least like, a question. Why. Why would you give that to them unless you needed it yourself?

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (78:04)

Yeah, I mean, it's the same for you, right? Like, you, like, you don't need your kids, but in a certain way you need your kids.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (78:09)

Right.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (78:10)

It's the exact same thing. I mean, you have children, you're running the risk that, like, these kids could grow up, turn 18, and never talk to me again.

Matt Hepner (78:18)

Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Like, so the question is, like, why God would even do this at all?

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (78:24)

Yeah, I think that stuff.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (78:26)

That's the only good answer.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (78:27)

Yeah, like, God is relational. You just create these robots. Or like, I'm guessing Dougie's not into the Calvinist or Reformed doctrine. Clearly that, like, it'll be like, okay, then what's the point? Like, like, what do you mean? Like, if we're just. If he's just doing this thing and everything's already predetermined and nobody has free will, then what's the point? Like what. Like, what are we doing here? It's almost like this is the testing ground to see if you really love him and he gives you that opportunity. The Same way we do when we have children.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (78:51)

And there's probably also this real desire to see us grow and see us develop and. Yeah, and you can't just, I mean, you know, we see people do it all the time. There's parents all over the world throughout history that are guilty of it, you know, trying so hard to, to micromanage every aspect of their child's life only to find out that you screwed up when they become an adult. And you look back at all the ways you micromanaged and you were overbearing and you were, you didn't allow them this freedom, right, this freedom to choose to even have the ability to mess up. And what it just does in the end is, is make you realize all the ways in which you as a parent screwed up. So I would imagine God is, is wiser than, than we are and he would let us go off build the towers, go crazy, you know, whatever. Yeah, and, and yeah, it's, and it's love. That's the thing that allows you to do that because it hurts like hell, so.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (79:42)

Right. Yeah. You know, he, I was just going to say he intervenes only so often when there's an existential threat to the entire system. So with the Tower of Babel, you know, God wasn't against tall buildings. The word Bob El actually means gate of the gods. So they were trying to build a Stargate wormhole, if you want to use that term. They were trying to find a way to cross the barrier, to get through the veil so that these evil malevolent beings that were saying that they're on our side, but they're really not, they would, it's like, you know, letting a, a corrupted file into your system, in your computer system. You don't want to do that. You want to quarantine it. And so God was basically putting, you know, some, some last effort, last ditch safety rails, you know, on for humanity so that we could not be completely destroyed by letting in these, these otherworldly entities that would take over. They would subjugate us, you know, even more than they already are. But it would truly be hell on earth. And so that was, again, that was love. Right? And so this is what I'm trying to do is like I want to see everything in love now, nowadays, even the end times, I see as love. That God is not this ogre, he's not this, this character that many of us have grown up with that he's on his throne and he's got a bunch of lightning bolts and he can hardly wait to Meet out justice. He's definitely not the Calvinist God. Sorry to all the Calvinists out there, but I was not predestined to be a Calvinist. And God is love. He is not determined that, you know, umpteen million people are going to hell just because he didn't offer them grace. Not at all. God is love. And he wants to have a relationship with them, us. And because relationship is inherently risky, because love requires the ability for the person that you want to love to say no to you. But that's what gives it meaning, right? That's what gives it meaning. Otherwise, we just call it slavery. And God doesn't want us to be in slavery. He's emphatic about that, that he's not come to enslave us, but to liberate us, to free us. Christ has come that we would have freedom Him. We're already in bondage, so he wants to liberate us from that. And in order for that to happen, it has to be slow, it has to be methodical, it has to be freely chosen. And that's why God allows for malevolent beings like the, the, you know, the, the demons and the fallen angels to keep doing their thing. Now, their quarantine is coming, okay? Because eventually they're going to have no place in his kingdom. Not because that God is tough and stern, but it's just that they're incompatible with this kingdom of love, this kingdom of light and all the glory that will be coming from it. There's simply no place for them. And so if a being continues to willfully say, I want nothing to do with you, God is not going to force them. That's not how love works. He's gonna say, okay, we have a special room for you right over here. And you can go and, and sit there for as long as you want. All right, the door. Here's the key. But you can stay in your room as long as you want. You don't come and play with the rest of us. But if you, you know, anyway, so, so, you know, if you want to call that hell, the lake of fire, there's all kinds of a whole nother discussion, right? But, but there is that capacity for beings that just continue to refuse. We want nothing to do with it. Because that's how love operates. There, there has to be that option to say.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (83:25)

No, I, I agree. Go ahead.

Matt Hepner (83:27)

Oh, yeah. I just wanted to ask, because you have, like, such an intense body of work, I assume that, like, the church, people in the church, the modern church, are, are some of your main readers, and you like to probably reach everybody with this, which is the point of writing a book. But how do you think something like this, with this, the relational universe book, how do you think that that's going to be perceived by like, the people in church today? Do you think that they're going to understand this? Because this is like, it's like black belt level stuff. And when I, when I talk to people in my church about just some of the topics that we talk on the show, like, sometimes I don't, I don't feel that they really get it, but maybe it's just my, my, me doing a bad job. What, what do you think your, how do you want to see this perceived? And what do you, what do you think will, will happen within the body of Christ when they read this work?

Dr. Douglas Hamp (84:26)

Yeah, well, so I've had some early readers and it's really interesting. The, the response I've gotten so far is that people are saying it's making a cry. So that touches me as an author, of course, because if I can, if I can strike a nerve, then I feel like I've done a pretty decent job. I, I wrote the book in such a way that I'm not invoking God. I'm not. There's no altar call. I'm not saying it's Jesus, of course, you know, you know, I do think obviously that it is Jesus, but I'm trying to talk about structure. And I want to show first, I want people to have a sense of awe and wonder. Just like when you go into Notre Dame and you look up at that, that ceiling and you're like, wow, this is amazing. That's what I want people to have that sense first, it's like, wow, this is incredible. And then as we continue to, to look deeper and to gaze longer and say, okay, what is holding these stones up? What principles are behind this building? What is it that I can't see that's making all of this work? And that's what I'm trying to get at. And so I'm trying to not be so much on the nose that I'm just totally pointing it out for people. I'm trying to show the principles, I'm trying to show the architecture. And then, you know, with enough clues and enough hints here and there, people are like, oh, I get it. Because there's something visceral. When you get something for yourself, right? When you have that eureka moment, you go light bulb, right? It's not that your teachers weren't telling you things. It's just that it didn't click, and then one day it clicked and then you finally got it. And that is that moment where, you know, it just becomes so powerful. It's the. In. In German, it's called the Gestalt moment. Okay, but it's basically Eureka, right? Where you're like, ah, I get it, right? It all comes together finally. There's a. It's not just data points, but there's a coherence to the data points. So I really work hard in all of my books to write them as simply as I can. And it's not always easy because a lot of times there are these big concepts. But with this one, I feel like, you know, I take the reader step by step and I just say, let's just go for a walk. Let's just look through this. Let's understand at that, at every level, every scale, there's relationship. And I, you know, I talk about the battery, right? So in the, the double A battery, where is the energy? It's only when you connect the two ends that. And where is the energy? It's. It's between them. That's the beauty of it. And if everything is made of energy, if. If everything that we hold, that we, We. We can touch is little energy packets, and yet energy is the byproduct of relationship. And then the Bible says that God is love. I'm hoping you're connecting all the dots here. And I. I want to assume that my readers are pretty intelligent, you know, so I'm not going to assume that they're, you know, they're all PhD. That, that's not the point. But I'm trying to write it at such a level that, you know, the average person can connect these dots, but they're also like, yeah, that. That's really awesome. So I don't know, for me, it was really exciting to put these things together. And I hope people get very much inspired. And then there's all kinds of application. And I think, you know, in the area of business as well, that once you understand, like, why. Why do people burn out? Why do they say, yes, I'll do it, but then they don't. It's because there's a structural issue that has to be addressed before we start to, you know, beating on people and trying to get them to do this and that once the structure is fixed, then the rest of the stuff takes care of it of its own.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (88:17)

That's something we've been talking about on this show for the last couple of weeks. You do a Show every day. A lot of the same concepts kind of pop up every episode because they're on your mind. And, you know, it's. It's the ability to take something that is complicated. You know, we're talking about the foundational building blocks of the universe.

Matt Hepner (88:37)

Yeah.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (88:38)

But there is always a way to package a thing and present it in its rudimentary form so that it's simple and easy to understand. And once you grasp that foundation, then there's a larger conversation that springs forth from it. But I think it is really the mark of understanding is the ability to express it in simple terms. And I think within this space, we fail constantly to do that because these things are, are so, so big. So much bigger than even, you know, a podcast that's an hour and a half or two hours allows to, to expand on. But I, I like what you're saying, where it's like, you're not smashing people over the head with it. It's Jesus. But I think it is very important to create a thing. Maybe not that, like, screams at you, it's Jesus, but if it ultimately points to Christ.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (89:31)

Right.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (89:31)

That. That's kind of the thing is like, if you're laying out a bunch of concepts and these concepts are laid out in an understandable way and, and it allows the reader to come to this conclusion of, oh, wait a second, then, then I think that you've, you know, you've done the, the job aptly, but.

Matt Hepner (89:47)

Also opens up your audience to people. You know, we have a lot of people already that are. That are just pointing edge, and I'm not saying that they shouldn't, but there's a lot of people doing that. But if you're, if you're going to be talking to other people that might not be perceptive to this thing, that is, that's fantastic. And that's like, that's kind of what I want this show. Well, what we've kind of designed this show to be where we can do a little bit of comedy, do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and we could reach these people, maybe disaffected people, maybe people that are just, I don't know, had no interest in, in this stuff otherwise, but in the end of the day, kind of like spin them around here and go, oh, put that right over there.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (90:23)

Just orient them.

Matt Hepner (90:24)

Just.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (90:24)

Yeah. I mean, Jesus talks about the four kinds of soil, right? And, you know, you got the, the hard pack, you got the stony, you got the one that never really takes root, and then you got the good Soil. And I think sometimes we've been shooting ourselves in the foot, you know, the church as a whole, where, you know, I grew up in the Baptist flavor, where. We've got to get a sale today. You know, we've got to get a decision right now. Okay, before we hang up this call, I need you to say, you know, yes. And I mean, that works with some people, but I think a lot of, a lot of people have gone through that kind of experience. It's been very negative for them. It was maybe forced, it was coerced, and now they want nothing to do with God. Yeah, I, I used to go to, when I lived in Southern California, I met this guy who started a, an atheist support group in his home. And he, it was, it was like church, but it was for atheists, you know, and they would get up and every Saturday night they would give testimonies. Yeah, I grew up in the church and I used to believe. But then I asked my pastor a question and he had no idea. I asked him about the nephilim and he said, oh, don't worry about that. You know, these skeptics had a lot of great questions and they went to the people in authority who said, oh, don't worry about that. Take it by faith, or you're stupid to ask that, or any one of these things. And they left because the, the, the institution failed them as a whole. And so I wrote this book where I'm not trying to appeal to God again. I obviously believe in God, but I'm not trying to appeal to God. I'm trying to be a good researcher. I'm trying to be an observer of this world. I'm trying to be a, a scientist. In that sense, though, I, you know, I'll be the first to tell you, I don't have a degree in physics or any higher science, but, you know, I can be a student and I can observe things and I can hopefully make good arguments. I'm certainly trying. And I can quote really smart people who do. Right. And so, you know, so that's what I'm trying to do. And I, and I'm trying to say, you know, look, Mr. Atheist, I don't, I don't want you to just say, oh, I believe in God. I want to say, let's look at this thing together and what do we both see? And I find like, I feel like if we can come to common ground with a of lot of people instead of trying to bludgeon them, trying to coerce them, to guilt them into something because it doesn't last. And that's kind of the, the point of my book is that you can force systems to hold together. I, I talk about a policeman and a, a prisoner who are handcuffed together. They might look like they're in alignment. They're connected for sure. They're going the same direction. But the moment you take the handcuffs off, guess what? The prisoner is out of there. Because it was not a mutual relationship. It was forced. And we see this in regimes all the time that yes, force can hold it together. Force is effective for a time, but eventually cracks start to show. Eventually things fall apart because people are not in it willingly. There has to be this participation, participation aspect. That's the, what I call intent. There has to be this willingness to be in the relationship. And if it's just forced, it'll hold together for a while, but eventually it will crack and it will crumble and fall apart. So that is the superstructure of the universe that I am seeing at every level. That's also crazy. In a PowerPoint I'm putting together, I show this, this neuron that you see this little neuron and it's looking. What's it looking for? It's looking for a relationship. Okay. It wants to connect to another neuron, because what good is one neuron? Not good for anything, but a neuron connected to another neuron. Ah. That is where thought begins to take place. Right. And again, when you begin to see this, that at every level, that everything requires relationship and that even at the substrate of, of the universe, we start getting into string theory. They talk about these one dimensional vibrating strings. I can't still can't quite imagine what those look like. But what's a one dimensional object? I don't know. But, but they're all vibrating together, right? It's the frequency of these things together that creates substance. There's also something called the Higgs field. And the Higgs field is what gives mass to things. Think of it like you're on a crowded subway and the door opens, it's your stop, you want to get out and you're trying to move through all the people, but there's a lot of people there. And what's happening, they're slowing you down, they're giving you mass, they're giving you resistance and weight. That is what the Higgs field does. Where is the Higgs field? It's everywhere. I mean, it's everywhere. We're living in the Higgs field. And it's this field of relationship that gives rise to substance. I mean, is that not kind of mind blowing. I'm kind of blown away by that. And so when you see this at every single level, and you begin to realize there are immutable laws that we can't get around, and you start wondering, why are things not working out at work? Or, why are things not working out in this relationship? Or why is my house falling apart? Well, it's the same thing, because you can hold things together for so long by force, but it's when things are completely aligned. They're all oriented in the same direction, and they're all bearing an equal amount of the load. They're participating in it. Then it holds together naturally. And again, this is where quantum physics says, hey, we live in a participatory universe. This is what John. Oh, my gosh. What's this? Wheeler. John Wheeler. He talks about the participatory universe, that we are participants, active participants. We change how the universe works because we are participants in it. I mean, it's just at every level. So, yeah, it, you know, if you come away a little dumbfounded from the book, that's okay, because I was dumbfounded when I was writing it, and I love that.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (96:38)

Well, I. I like what you were saying, though, about instead of you can't force a person. Right. And I. I was kind of thinking of the analogy of, like, you have a plant like a tree, and sometimes like a tree transplant to another area fails and the tree dies. It's much better to plant a seed, and that requires patience. And that's kind of like one of the biggest things that I'm. I'm learning.

Matt Hepner (97:01)

But you know what, though? There's a lot of. Well, I don't know if there's a lot of guys, but you and our. An extreme contributor to the show, Ed Mabry, you guys are in the same sort of field. Yeah, Ed Mabry, he has, like, a slight more focus, I guess, on the. The spiritual supernatural. But as far as the scientific goes, like, some of his work is right along the line.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (97:22)

I'd like to see a podcast with those two.

Matt Hepner (97:24)

I'd like to see. Yeah, I mean, just an email exchange between you two guys.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (97:27)

I'd like to read that.

Matt Hepner (97:28)

Yeah. Fantastic minds, for sure. But, yeah, there are people pushing in this direction, and it's. It's. It's good to see.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (97:36)

Yeah, yeah. And I. I would hope that it, you know, it plants some seeds and. And that's about all we can do. That's what we're. I think that's the best way, really, to bring people to the Conversation is just planting seeds, backing off and letting them get there. But I, I want to bring this in for a landing. I don't want to ask. I want to ask one final question. It's one that we usually ask.

Matt Hepner (97:53)

Oh, we haven't done this in a long time.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (97:55)

We haven't asked this in a long time. But I, I'm curious as to the answer in this particular instance. You know, in all your pursuits, all these, all these books that you've written, and not this, not this interview, but just in everything that you're doing. Are you having fun?

Dr. Douglas Hamp (98:12)

I am, yeah, I am. And I mean, I love researching the Nephilim. I've written, I don't know, three or four or five books on that. I love it. It's. It's fascinating stuff. Stuff, but it's also a little bit dark. You know, at the end of the day, you're like, okay, Satan's pretty darn clever. That's depressing, you know? You know, and so I said with my, this, this book that's coming out in, in May called Immortal Dawn, I'm, I'm taking the book of Revelation and I'm saying, hey, what if we put the lens of love on this thing? And so instead of seeing it as God who's lost his temperance, how about God who loves us is coming back and he's simply given us a heads up, hey, I'm coming back and I'm made of light, or I am light. He's not made of anything. He is light. And the kingdom of darkness just isn't gonna do so well, you know, so come on over. Right? It's just, it's a totally different focus. It's the same general story, but it's a reorientation of, of the story. It's a, it's a different lens to the story. And I think that is basically what we need. I mean, I think there's been so much great biblical research that has been done over the years, but sometimes we just have the, the wrong focus or the wrong lens when we're looking at these things. And if we just take those same data points and just reorient them and say, oh, well, that's a, that's a whole different way to look at it, and it's a lot more exciting. Love inspires all of us, right? I mean, I'm pretty excited about love, you know, and, and I want to focus, you know, my life on that instead of the darkness. The darkness is interesting, granted, but it's dark, you know, and it can, it can lead into depression. And then people start thinking they're nephilim. And.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (100:00)

Next thing you know, they're in your emails, they're telling you they are. You know, I think it's, it's an important conversation to have because we live in this materialist paradigm and we've been led to believe it doesn't exist. So in that context, like, yeah, but, but what do you talk about after you've established that it's already exist?

Matt Hepner (100:14)

Quick plug. It's just interesting because I think Ed Mabry's book, book about the four horsemen of the Apocalypse drops around the same time that you're dropping this book. And he posits that these four horsemen are not a work of God, but they are a deception of Satan. And I don't know exactly how he's going to get to that, but it's just funny that you. I'm telling you, you guys are both pushing in the same direction with the scientific stuff and even with this. So I, Yeah, I really would like.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (100:38)

To see on the relationship between us and God, God the father and, and what he wants for us and, and, and what love is and all these things. I mean, it felt very much adjacent to the discussions we've had with Ed. But one more time, Dr. Hamp, where can people find your works? How can they go and support you?

Dr. Douglas Hamp (100:56)

Douglashamp.com is definitely a great place if you want to get the physical books. Those would all be on Amazon.com so just put in Doug Hamp and my author page should come up with all of my different books. Books. So. Yeah, and enough people want me to come speak. I actually recently did a book called God's Divorce and that's kind of a fun book as well. So if you ever want me back, I'm happy to talk about that one. Is that that kind of a mind blowing.

Matt Hepner (101:27)

Oh, you got, you got me. I was just gonna be like, what's that?

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (101:29)

Yeah.

Matt Hepner (101:30)

All right, next time we gotta get.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (101:31)

Some Dr. Hampton books for the library. Where our, our studio is, is in a coffee shop that also has a Christian library in it. And so we gotta, we gotta go to the website, get some books.

Matt Hepner (101:40)

Yeah, we'll pick up some books, put. Where is H at? H is somewhere over there.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (101:44)

Yeah, no, there's. I'm just thinking there's a lot of Matthew Henry in the H's. I'm trying to think of who else is.

Dr. Douglas Hamp (101:50)

Who else is in there.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (101:51)

We gotta get Hamp in there now.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (101:52)

Yeah, left side.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (101:53)

There we go.

Unidentified Guest/Contributor (101:54)

There we go.

Matt Hepner (101:54)

Okay, perfect. We'll we'll get some of your works in there. Thank you for your time. This is a great episode.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (102:01)

It was a great episode. Yeah.

Matt Hepner (102:02)

Good way to go into the weekend as well. Guys, until next time, don't forget to obey, submit and comply. We'll see you later. They bred with daughters of men and they will do it again. The end is written in the book. In the pages they forget Death, spot death, one.

David Lee Corbo (Top Lobster) (102:48)

Death when the last trumpet sound in the heaven.