Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network / Recall This Book
Episode: Glenn Patterson: You Can Choose Who You Are
Host(s): John Plotz & David Cunningham
Guest: Glenn Patterson, novelist and memoirist, Director of the Seamus Heaney Centre, Queen's University Belfast
Release Date: October 30, 2025

Main Theme:
This episode explores the political and social landscape of Northern Ireland, focusing on identity, community, memory, and the aftermath of the Troubles. Glenn Patterson discusses his career, works ('Lapsed Protestant,' 'Here’s Me'), and personal experiences in Belfast, emphasizing the importance of language and the dangers of rigid identities. The conversation also draws connections between Belfast and other divided cities (notably in the US), delves into how public art and architecture shape group boundaries, and considers the persistence of violence and xenophobia after prolonged conflict.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Setting the Stage

• Complexity of Northern Irish Politics (01:12–04:48):
  • John Plotz highlights how fraught the language of division is in Belfast, noting the risks of “naming sides.”
  • Cites contemporary media (e.g., 'Derry Girls,' Anna Burns’ 'Milkman') as powerful lenses on continuing sectarian divides.
• Guest Introduction (04:48–05:28):
  • Glenn Patterson: novelist, memoirist, screenwriter ('Good Vibrations'), and academic, known for nuanced takes on Belfast.

2. Genesis of Patterson’s Work & Identity in Northern Ireland

• Writing Roots (06:27–12:04):
  • Patterson recounts his early reluctance to write memoir or journalism after his debut novel (“I felt like I'd used up so much more than I thought I was going to use... I just said no... I need everything for the next book.” – 06:27).
  • A Swedish magazine commission led him and fellow novelist Robert McLean Wilson (Catholic) to reflect on growing up in Belfast in the 70s/80s.
  • Central Reflection: The drive to move beyond binary identities—Protestant/Catholic, Unionist/Nationalist—and claim a more complex, self-chosen sense of self:
    • "You can choose who you are. Your choices need not be mutually exclusive... I'm all of these things, and I embrace them and I get to define who I am myself." (08:55)

3. The Language of Community & Victimhood (12:04–17:07)

• The Ambiguity of ‘Community’ (12:44):
  • Patterson examines the word 'community' as both connective and profoundly divisive:
    • “One of the things that happens is that words get taken out of your mouth, they get appropriated... even useful words get taken off you.”
  • Vows to ‘take back’ such words and use writing as a means to scrutinize and reclaim language.
• Personal and Political Cost of Mixed Relationships (16:14):
  • Mixed marriages are a lightning rod for bigotry, defying the notion of “two different peoples” (16:14–17:07).
  • Recounts a recent blue plaque unveiling in Belfast, reflecting on the memorialization of combatants vs civilian victims, and how most violence was not political but “nasty and opportunistic" (17:07).

4. Murals, Monuments, and Internal Policing (20:09–22:10)

• Role of Murals & Monuments in Defining Community (20:09):

  • Murals serve both as external boundary markers and internal enforcers—reinforcing collective values, stifling deviation:
    • “It signals... by saying that this is the collective will of the community. Any deviation from that now becomes suspect.” (20:09)

• Comparison to US Segregation & Policing (22:10–29:28):

  • Drawing analogies between Belfast’s peace lines and American urban segregation—edges marked by murals, flags, and invisible lines (St. Louis, Baltimore).

• Architecture Entrenching Division (29:29–31:09):

  • Criticism of how ‘softening’ peace walls and building cul de sacs cements division for generations:
    • “Once you start building the cul de sacs... then you’ve got a problem because you cannot overcome those divisions as easily.” (29:29)

5. Mapping Cities and ‘Unseeing’ (31:09–39:10)

• 'City & the City' Analogy (31:09–36:45):
  • Patterson draws on China Miéville’s novel to illustrate how people in Belfast learn to ‘unsee’ other communities:
    • “You are trained not to see the other city happening right in front of you. That, to me, is just—that’s growing up in Belfast…” (31:50)
  • Anecdote: Catholic guide unable to suggest a shortcut to Protestants because it wasn’t in their “mental geography.” (36:13–36:46)
  • Patterson’s personal resolve upon returning to Belfast: to know and embrace the whole city, refusing self-imposed exclusion (36:46–39:10).

6. Recent Xenophobia, Violence, and Policing (39:10–45:24)

• Repertoires of Exclusion (39:10–40:31):
  • Pattern of bonfires and riots targeting outsiders, recently aimed at migrants/refugees.
  • “It is, it has been truly disgusting, what has happened…” (40:31)
  • Acknowledges both economic roots and learned violent tactics (“repertoire”) as drivers of xenophobia.
• Policing’s Role (45:24–46:58):
  • Heavy-handed policing escalates conflict—a pattern seen in Belfast and US cities (Ferguson).
    • “In 1969… the Royal Ulster Constabulary… had armored cars with machine gun turrets… That revolving gun turret killed a nine-year-old boy…” (45:36)

7. Graffiti, Street Art, & Individual Agency (50:02–53:46)

• Graffiti as Dissent & Cultural Layer (50:02):
  • Three waves: contesting paramilitary authority, mural ‘softening’ with cultural icons, then pure graffiti culture.
  • “What’s the purpose of the murals? It’s to remind you who controls this place. What’s the purpose of graffiti? It’s to say not that much. You don’t.” (50:02)
  • Generational shift—graffiti as parallel culture displacing old markers of ‘belonging.’

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Identity:

  “You can be. You can choose who you are. Your choices need not be mutually exclusive ... Instead of having this idea of identity as the reduction to one—brilliantly, in Robert's version, 'the one word you'll get killed for'—you just kind of exploded your identity."
  —Glenn Patterson, 08:55

• On Words and Sectarianism:

  “One of the things that happens is that words get taken out of your mouth… you find it very difficult to say something for fear of using a word that marks you out. And even useful words get taken off you.”
  —Glenn Patterson, 12:44

• On Mural Power:

  “It also enforces within the community… Any deviation from that now becomes suspect... to live in a neighborhood where you have paramilitary figures defining those values for you… that seems like a really difficult place to be.”
  —David Cunningham, 20:09

• On Urban Architecture:

  “Once you start building the cul de sacs... then you’ve got a problem because you cannot overcome those divisions as easily.”
  —Glenn Patterson, 29:29

• On the 'City & the City' Analogy:

  “You unsee—so you just don't see the other city… That, to me, is just... that's growing up in Belfast.”
  —Glenn Patterson, 31:50

• On Graffiti:

  "What's the purpose of the murals? It's to remind you who controls this place. What's the purpose of graffiti? It's to say not that much. You don't."
  —Glenn Patterson, 50:02

• Closing Motto:

  "More power to the aerosols."
  —Glenn Patterson, 53:46

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment Topic | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Introduction & complexity of language in NI politics | 01:12–04:48| | Patterson discusses ‘Lapsed Protestant’ origins & early writing | 06:27–12:04| | The loaded word 'community' & anecdote on mixed relationships | 12:44–17:07| | Murals, monuments, and policing boundaries | 20:09–22:10| | Comparison to US city segregation (St. Louis / Baltimore) | 22:10–29:28| | Impact of architecture on entrenching sectarianism | 29:29–31:09| | 'City & the City' analogy; 'unseeing' & partial maps | 31:09–39:10| | Contemporary xenophobic violence, policing, and bonfires | 39:10–45:24| | Heavy policing & reference to Ferguson (US) | 45:24–50:02| | Graffiti and the evolution of street-level cultural markers | 50:02–53:46|

Book Recommendations

Glenn Patterson:

• USA Trilogy by John Dos Passos
  (“I would love to write a novel set in Northern Ireland that had the same kind of ambition as USA by John Dos Passos.” —55:30)

David Cunningham:

• The Northern Bank Job by Glenn Patterson
• The Bureau by Eoin McNamee
  (“...really wonderful accounts of this long tail [of conflict].” —58:09)

John Plotz:

• The Image of the City by Kevin Lynch
  (“...on the visible and invisible ways that neighborhoods are Balkanized...” —60:09)

Tone & Final Thoughts

The episode is reflective, deeply nuanced, and at times wryly humorous, fitting the literary and academic backgrounds of all speakers. Patterson’s candor and humility serve as a through-line, with John Plotz and David Cunningham guiding the conversation to connect Northern Irish experience to wider global discourses of urban division, policing, and group identity.

Memorable Closing:
“More power to the aerosols.” —Patterson’s sideways blessing to a new generation of (graffiti) artists unbound by old loyalties and taboos.