A. J. Bermudez, “The Sixteenth Brother” The Common Magazine (Fall, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

New Books Network — A. J. Bermudez, “The Sixteenth Brother” (The Common Magazine, Fall 2025)
Host: Emily Everett (Managing Editor, The Common)
Guest: A. J. Bermudez (Author, Filmmaker, Professor)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores A. J. Bermudez’s short story “The Sixteenth Brother,” featured in The Common’s Fall 2025 issue. The conversation delves into the story's immersive sense of place, its fable-like narrative style, and themes of inheritance, law, and agency in Morocco. Bermudez shares insights into their creative process, the inspiration behind the piece, and how her experiences as a writer, filmmaker, and academic shape her work. The chat also expands into writing process, narrative form, interdisciplinary creativity, and the joys and challenges of storytelling and collaboration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene & Author Background

• AJ Bermudez joins from sunny Miami, where she is a visiting assistant professor in fiction at the University of Miami, highlighting the beauty (and the irony of often being inside).
  • “So much beauty behind you, Emily, outside of these windows, but behind me the office looks pretty unimpressive...” (03:40)
• Emily is in Northampton, Massachusetts, celebrating the first warm day after “a very miserably cold, snowy winter.” (04:21)

Reading from “The Sixteenth Brother” (04:52–10:28)

• Bermudez reads the lush, atmospheric opening to her story, capturing both the grandeur and decline of the Riad Jena, an aristocratic home in Fez, Morocco, and setting up the legal and familial intrigue that underpins the plot.
  • “The way Khalida tells the story is this: For 200 years, Riyad Jena has belonged to the descendants of Abdallah bin Said. But she is swift to point out: not all his descendants.” (04:59)
  • “If 15 brothers wish to sell their father’s property but the 16th brother disagrees, the property cannot be sold. Such was the exact case of Shakir, the sixteenth brother of his family.” (10:18)

Thematic Layering & Narrative Summary

• The story operates on multiple levels:
  • An intricate family drama involving a wedding, a death, and the question of whether the last holdout brother will agree to sell the family’s ancestral home.
  • An exploration of Moroccan inheritance law, and the way legal, historical, and social dynamics play out on a micro, interpersonal scale.
• Bermudez is fascinated by how individual agency and collective legacy intersect—especially for women.
  • “Perhaps [the protagonist] has more agency than Moroccan inheritance law lets on or that anyone predicts.” (12:48)
• The story’s fable-like, slightly removed narrative style (stories within stories) is intentional, reflecting how family history, rumor, and social memory are transmitted.
  • “Like really kind of four layers of room for hearsay and that sort of playful, liminal space between here’s what really happened and here’s the story you heard…” (20:46)

Inspiration & Research (14:51, 17:12)

• The story was sparked by curiosity during Bermudez’s months-long residency at Nawat Fez in Morocco, which provided time for research and immersive experience in the old medina.
  • “I had time, I had space, I had resources, I had information, I had super cool people, I had my day to day lived experience...this short story sort of snuck up on me and just became a joy to conceive in that environment.” (14:51)
• The story was conceived among research for a screenplay set in Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, and France, dealing with colonial and decolonial histories and how they imprint on individual lives as “palimpsests.”
• Notably, the story was drafted and revised within a few years, a relatively short time for literary fiction.
  • “Three and a half years max for me on a story…not terribly unreasoned.” (17:32)

Editorial Collaboration and the Revision Process (18:00, 25:25, 26:59)

• Bermudez speaks warmly about the collaborative revision with The Common’s editors (especially Olive Amdar), appreciating when tastes and vision align.
  • “It’s so fun when you have that experience of just really jamming with another editor, and like they love what you love.” (18:53)
• The revision process for “The Sixteenth Brother” included workshop edits and further tweaks at the Common, and additional microedits from her literary agent for a forthcoming collection, “The God of Ugly Things.”
  • “I will eventually, like, line up and execute My Darlings, but it is hard for me. And I often edit as I’m writing, which you are also not supposed to do…” (25:25)
  • “The revision process has actually been much, much longer than the original crafting…” (26:59)

Narrative Devices & Characterization (19:41-21:27, 22:26)

• The story’s framing device—Khalida as gossipy storyteller—adds layers, distance, and playfulness, evoking the oral tradition and the gaps between lived events and retold narratives.
• The protagonist, Naima, is a composite character inspired by “a host of experiences and facts and details and also hearsay.” Her name is borrowed from a friend Bermudez met in Fez, who she’s now translating into English.
  • “The character is certainly a quilt like fabrication...I just fucking love this character.” (22:26)
  • “Her name, Naima...is fully stolen from a very dear friend and very gifted authority, Naima Labil Tagamuati...” (23:10)

Craft, Form & Intersections with Filmmaking (30:36, 33:53)

• Both host and guest are “hardcore outliners” in their writing processes, with Bermudez highlighting the value of screenwriting’s structural discipline in literary writing and vice versa.
  • “I worship at the altar of, like, hardcore outlining. I just love it. I’ve got spreadsheets. I’ve got color coding. I’ve got chapter percentages. It’s pretty granular…” (30:36)
• The immediacy, efficiency, and attention to endings in screenwriting benefit literary fiction; literary voice and looseness can inform richer screenplays.
  • “The rules of screenwriting and the rules of literary fiction just have so much to teach each other...” (35:53)
• Bermudez regularly toggles between fiction, playwriting, and screenwriting, finding each discipline brings creative tools to the others.

Professional Life, Projects, and the Joy/Struggle of Writing (28:43, 37:51, 40:05)

• Bermudez’s career includes two story collections (the second in progress), a debut novel just sent on submission (“a beast...so monolithic”), and multiple film projects, including adaptations and original scripts.
• She encourages reframing the solitary and demanding nature of writing as a privilege:
  • “At the end of the day, it’s a joy. These things we get to do...generative. We get to do this. It’s so wild. And then for you, the editorial process as a collaborative art making act is so special and so cool.” (40:52)
• She values collaboration, both in film and in bringing trusted readers and editors into the literary process to counteract the loneliness of solitary writing.

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Notable Quotes

• On the purpose of the story:
  “It’s really about a woman who agrees to marry a man in Fez and comes and perhaps has more agency than Moroccan inheritance law lets on. Or that anyone predicts.” — AJ Bermudez (12:48)

• On the story’s narrative layers:
  “I wanted to leave…like really four layers of room for hearsay and that sort of playful, liminal space between here’s what really happened and here’s the story you heard…” — AJ Bermudez (20:46)

• On writing process:
  “My first drafts take just for fucking ever, and then are very strong first drafts … revision process has actually been much, much longer than the original crafting, which is awesome.” — AJ Bermudez (25:25, 26:59)

• On character inspiration:
  “The character is certainly a quilt like fabrication…her name, Naima, is fully stolen from a very dear friend…who I befriended in Fez. I think names are super important. And if you can connect to a name that just sort of triggers love for you, that’s a win.” — AJ Bermudez (22:26, 23:10)

• On joy and collaboration in art:
  “I’ve been trying to extricate certain language from my vocabulary, like deadlines and due dates and … carceral terms that we apply to writing...we get to do this.” — AJ Bermudez (40:52)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 03:40 — AJ sets the scene from Miami; conversation about physical place.
• 04:52–10:28 — Reading of the story’s opening (Riad description, family dynamics).
• 11:52 — Summary of the story’s plot and core tensions.
• 14:51 — Discussion of the story’s inspiration and Nawat Fez residency.
• 18:00 — Editorial process and collaboration with The Common.
• 19:41 — Discussion of the story’s framing device (Khalida as narrator).
• 22:26 — Naima’s backstory, character building, and name’s origin.
• 25:25 — Revision process: workshops, editorial, and agent feedback.
• 28:43 — On being prolific, balancing novels, stories, and film projects.
• 30:36–33:39 — Outlining, craft, and interplay between screenwriting and fiction.
• 33:53 — Film and literary careers: how they inform each other.
• 40:44 — Reflecting on the writing life as self-imposed homework and joy.
• 41:57 — Making solitary writing more collaborative.

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Memorable Moments

• Fable within a fable: Khalida’s layered narration, the mysterious “sixteenth brother,” and family rumor-gossip blends folklore, hearsay, and legal tale.
• Story born of place: The evocative residency in Fez and friendships made there feed both narrative and character (the real Naima in Fez).
• Life imitating art: Bermudez’s creative life echoes her story themes—palimpsests, hybrids, histories, agencies—spilling between novels, films, and across continents.
• Literary joy: Both the host and guest celebrate the rarity and privilege of creating—and collaborating on—stories that cross genres and borders.

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What’s Next for AJ Bermudez

• Second short story collection, The God of Ugly Things (includes “The Sixteenth Brother”).
• Debut novel recently submitted for publication.
• Multiple screenplays (including “My Dead Friend Zoe” and “Man of War”); also working on film adaptation of Idra Novey’s Take What You Need.
• Ongoing translation project: bringing work by Moroccan author Naima Labil Tagamuati into English.

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For Further Exploration

• Read “The Sixteenth Brother” in The Common (Issue 30, Fall 2025).
• Explore more of Bermudez’s work, including her prize-winning first collection, Stories No One Hopes Are About Them.
• Keep an eye on her upcoming literary and film releases.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[New Books Network Host]

hey NBN listeners. We're running our 2026 New Books Network Audience Survey, and we'd love just a few minutes of your time. NBN has been bringing you in depth conversations with authors and scholars for over 15 years. We haven't done a comprehensive audience survey since 2022, and a lot has changed since then. It's time to hear from you again. Here's why we're asking. We want to understand who's listening, what subjects and podcasts you love most, and where you'd like to see us grow. Your responses help us tell NBN's story to the publishers, libraries and institutions we partner with. When we can show that our listeners are serious readers, lifelong learners, and heavy library users, it opens doors to new partnerships, better resources, and ultimately a stronger NBN for everyone. And one more thing. If you leave your email address at the end of the survey, you'll be entered to win a $100 gift card to bookshop.org, a chance to stock up on books while supporting independent bookstores at the same time. The survey takes just five minutes. Your answers are confidential and your email will never be shared. Head to newbooksnetwork.com to take the survey today. We really appreciate your support. Now go take the survey.

[AJ Bermudez]

Welcome to the New Books Network

[Emily Everett]

hello everyone. Welcome to this Is the Place, a podcast series from the Common Magazine on the New Books Network. The Common publishes literature and art with a modern sense of place. I'm Emily Everett, managing editor of the magazine and host of the channel. Today we'll be talking to AJ Bermudez about her story the 16th Brother, which appears in issue 30 of the Common. AJ Bermudez is an award winning writer and director who divides her time between Los Angeles and New York. She's the author of stories no One Hopes are About them, winner of the Iowa Short Fiction Award and a Lambda Literary Award finalist. She is the recipient of the Page Award, the Diverse Voices Award, the Alpine Fellowship Writing Prize, the Pushkar Prize and the Steinbeck Fellowship. In addition to writing and filmmaking, she is also a former boxer and emt and her work gravitates toward contemporary intersections of power, privilege and place. AJ Bermudez, thanks for joining us.

[AJ Bermudez]

Thank you so much for having me, Emily.

[Emily Everett]

Delighted to be here. Would you just set the scene for our conversation? Just describe to us where you're calling from.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yes, I am in sunny Miami, where this semester and for the last two years I've served as the visiting assistant professor in fiction at the University of Miami. So if this is in a clip that this is being experienced. There's like so much beauty behind you, Emily, outside of these windows, but behind me the office looks pretty unimpressive back here, but I promise it's very gorgeous out in front.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

But yes, in, on campus, in the office. Miami.

[Emily Everett]

That is sort of my, my Miami experience too is that it's like so beautiful but you kind of have to be inside.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, that's the rule actually. Yes. And where, where are you right now?

[Emily Everett]

I'm in Northampton, Massachusetts.

[AJ Bermudez]

Okay, cool.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Also beautiful right now.

[Emily Everett]

Yeah. We are having our first 80 degree day after a very miserably cold, snowy winter. So, yeah, that's, you know, that's why I'm in my tank top today. I'm like adjusting, celebrating.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, no, Massachusetts winter is no joke. Yeah. Good for you.

[Emily Everett]

It had been, you know, it had been getting milder with the global warming and all that. But this last one was, was no joke.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yes, Love to see, love to see a tank top at the end of a hard earned season.

[Emily Everett]

Yes, absolutely. I would love to start off with a reading from your story. Would you read the first few paragraphs for us?

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yes, absolutely. All right. So this is the beginning of the 16th brother. The way Khalida tells the story is this. For 200 years, Riyadh Jenna has belonged to the descendants of Abdallah bin Said. But she is swift to point out not all his descendants in Morocco since time immemorial and perhaps even before then women have received half the inheritance of their male counterparts. She tells this part with a with a shrug.

[AJ Bermudez]

It's not fair, but it's the Quran.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

The property itself was as close as a locale could get to being a palace without belonging to a king, collected around a careful profusion of lemon and orange trees, low slum rose bushes and encroaching juniper, each side of the Riad ascended in a starkly elegant blend of plaster and marble studded with interior facing balconies and hand etched banisters designed to glitter in the midday sun meet a sheen of meticulously brushed on egg white inside, crystal chandeliers dripped above the tiled floors of no fewer than a dozen salons. Stained glass crafted in the same exquisitely intricate floral motif throughout the residence, cast shades of royal violet, palm green and saffron across the high pile woolen rugs, hand woven over the course of months, sometimes years, by women from the southern mountain tribes. Beneath the colorful expanse of the rugs, hand cut tiles spiraled in delicate patterns, the shapes and shades of opals from the Bar Faris and emeralds from the Black Desert of Egypt. On the upper floors, silk drapery, the work of assiduous silkworms imported from China's Zhou Tiang Province, locally helmed by a half blind weaver whose reputation in agave silk was undisputed, shielded the elaborate serving trays, mounted lanterns and candlesticks, all made from hammered tinnish silver from view. The centerpiece of the courtyard was a spectacular fountain in the shape of an octagonal Islamic star, a rub el hizbi whose corners pointed in both cardinal and intercardinal directions like a built in compass, as if to say, whichever direction you're facing, you're fine. Sometime after Abdullah Bahn Said's death, his grandson's third wife, the first two had respectively died and been divorced with little drama, took over most of the operations of the property. One of the third wife's most salient traits was loathing insects, and whenever a festively striated paper wasp, stridellant dragonfly, or contingent of Saharan silver ants crossed path, she'd shriek with the end of the world gusto of a woman in unmedicated labor. As a result of this reaction, her husband, who worried that the frequency and

[AJ Bermudez]

alacrity of the performance might be misinterpreted by their neighbors as some sort of

[Interviewer/Moderator]

recurring abuse, was extremely supportive. When she hired a full team of specialists, both ancient and modern, to eradicate garden pests, botanists and shawathas were brought in scientists and experts in the occult, and through some combination of the applied efforts with were far too numerous and diverse for anyone to be properly credited. The Riad was one day completely free of bugs, rodents, and any other living thing with four to a hundred legs. Even the birds, which had once nested in the long upturned branches of the cedar trees and pecked at the lemons where they fell, now swooped toward the edge of the roof and then swiftly darted away as though averted by some unwelcome scent. No one ever solved the mystery of what deterred the creatures, although everyone had their theories. Rich people, Khalilah reminds us, can afford anything. As is true of most Moroccan riyads, the windows of Riyadh Jena faced inward. The building, though traditional in its structure, was of a special size and of a slight remove from the neighboring residencies. Along the otherwise crowded derp, four impenetrable windowless walls formed the the exterior of the property, giving no hint as to what was inside, although this occlusion only served to film that conjecture. Every once in a while a nimble legged neighbor boy would climb one of the unnaturally tall cedars across the alley, peer over the high garden wall, and report back with some fresh piece of intelligence. Although this was usually exaggerated or fabricated altogether, the Riad was alternately coveted, crazed and dismissed by the local populace, but always the subject of gossip. There was a rumor that the original plans for the property were far more modest, but that Abdullah bin Said had collaborated with the French when Amir Abdelkader and fled to Morocco from Algeria, and that his cooperation with the colonizers had been compensated handsomely. Then, nearly a century later, at least according to rumor, Abdullah bin Said's great great grandson made a fortune brokering exchanges of Moroccan sugar for marble from Mussolini's Italy. Half the mosques and the drasses and Fez, it was said, had Axis marble in the walls. But over the following century, especially after France withdrew and left the country more or less to its own devices, Abdullah bin Said's once great dynasty, by the onset of the 21st century his heirs had so thoroughly failed to maintain, let alone magnify, their family fortune that the topic of selling Riyadjena arose. Now, Khalida notes, here's where it gets interesting. She explains that under Moroccan inheritance law, the vote on what to do with a property must be unanimous among shareholders. In other words, if 15 brothers wish to sell their father's property but the 16th brother disagrees, the property cannot be sold. Such was the exact case of Shakir, the 16th brother of his family.

[Emily Everett]

Thank you for Reading that, I'm sure our listeners can see why this story belongs in the Common. That description of the Riyadh is so lush and detailed. Not just like, what's there, but its provenance. You know, the silkworms and. Yeah, all of it. It's so wonderful. And I'm glad you read that. I just feel like it gives this real sense of sort of like the feeling of the piece of which is very majestic, but has, like, sort of this really intriguing sort of beating heart underneath. Thank you so much for saying.

[AJ Bermudez]

And yes, the Common. I think obviously I've admired the Common for a long time, but, yeah, I did feel when I wrote this piece, like, wow, you know what would be a great home for this piece? A journal really fixated on place like me.

[Emily Everett]

That's so nice to hear. Yeah. Yeah, it's so funny. There's pieces that I read. I mean, also, we can talk more about this, but I feel like the piece has what the editor in chief, Jen and I often call this fable, like, feel like a feeling of being not just your regular short story, but something that has this sort of otherworldly feel, or a story that's been passed down or something almost from a non Western tradition, like something that is not quite your regular short story. And we don't get a lot of those, but when I see them in the queue, I'm like, oh, this person knows about the Common.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, yeah. Thankfully, no. Appreciate the work y' all do and delighted to be a part of it.

[Emily Everett]

I wonder if you could just summarize the story plot, like, you know, don't have to give away everything, but. But how would you summarize the plot for someone who hasn't read it?

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, no spoilers. And I'm very bad at describing my own work, so we'll do our best. But basically, this is a story that is operating on two levels. One is a very human story about a wedding and a death in the background and a playful smattering of family drama set in Fez, Morocco, in the Medina, and sort of moving between the very old, I mean, like, millennia's old interiority of Fez through the much cleaner, more recent Villeneuve, or new, you know, new town that is outside of it.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And so there are a lot of

[AJ Bermudez]

tensions in the piece and a lot of small mysteries and gossips, but again, very fixated on place. And it's really about a woman who agrees to marry a man in Fets and comes and perhaps has more agency than Moroccan inheritance law lets on. Or that anyone predicts and so the other level on which this story operates is actually just like the very, the very high level of very real laws and legacies in an extremely specific region. And often for me, I don't know, I mean, stories sometimes come from the top down and sometimes they come from the bottom up. And I was so intrigued when I was briefly living and working in Morocco to learn some of this very specific, like, legal history. Sounds like a boring way to put it, but it's so, so fascinating that I just, I couldn't resist diving in and exploring and just conducting a shit ton of research and delving into what is a very collective experience through a very specific lens.

[Emily Everett]

That's really interesting. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is very specific. So I mean, like, I think in the part that you read, we get the basics, which is that the Riyadh might need to be sold. But it comes down to whether the Last brother, the 16th brother, who the story sort of scepters on, at least generally whether he will agree to sell or not. And as you say, like, like a woman comes to Fez to marry him. And that is sort of like the tensions and the crux of the story. Yeah. I'm so curious to hear what inspired you to start work on this piece. It sounds like you were sort of intrigued by some of the things you encountered when you were in Morocco. But I'd love to just hear kind of like how the first draft came together.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah. So for me, the best stories, the ones that I love to read or the ones that I'm inspired to write and feel that I can sustainably enjoy the process of writing and editing all the way through, which as you know, is like a big deal, really lead from a place of curiosity. So for me there was, so there was so much curiosity under this piece inspiring it. I felt like I was learning so many things going down rabbit holes and was so grateful to have the opportunity to begin the writing of this piece during a very special residency called the Nawat Fez residency, which is actually quite long term, like months long residency that is in the deep medina of Fez, Morocco. And so I had time, I had space, I had resources, I had information, I had super cool people, I had my day to day lived experience. I had, you know, so many things sort of under this story and going for this story. And so yeah, I was actually, I was, I was at this residency conducting research and working on a film project, a script for a piece that's also set in the region, in the Maghreb in Morocco. And Algeria and a little bit in Egypt and in France. That sort of also deals with colonial and decolonial histories and sort of the palimpsest of regions and how global events play out on the micro level through individual character identities that are, you know, conflictual and layered and really just, you know, palimpsestic in a person as place way. So while I was researching and working on that project, this short story sort of snuck up on me and just became a joy to conceive in that environment. And I'll actually get to be going back to FEZ in just a couple months for another, I think two, maybe

[Interviewer/Moderator]

two and a half month stay.

[AJ Bermudez]

Another residency chapter. So, yeah, I'm pretty excited to revisit the place and the many friends that I made there.

[Emily Everett]

That's so fun. What year were you there?

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Great question.

[AJ Bermudez]

We would have to go back to the you confirmed, but I feel like

[Emily Everett]

maybe two and a half years ago

[Interviewer/Moderator]

this would have been.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, so I guess that would be. Yeah, 2023 maybe, or 2022 at the most.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah.

[Emily Everett]

Okay. Okay. So this story hasn't had like a long, long life. Like, the last person I talked to on the podcast, that story had been. He'd been working on it for like a decade. Like that has not the case yet.

[AJ Bermudez]

Oh, you know, I hear people say that and I'm just like, woof. Like I can't the stamina of being invested in something for that long. I'm way too flighty for that. Yeah, no, I would say three and a half years max for me on a story narrating. But yeah, no, so not terribly unreasoned, but yeah. And then had the chance to, of course, revise and develop the story in the time since. Including in collaboration with the Common.

[Emily Everett]

Yeah, yeah, I'll say. I mean, you worked, I think, a fair bit on revisions with Olive Amdar, who was a former student intern at the Common and then an editor and has just become a contributing editor. And I like, sometimes you just as an editor, you're looking for people whose tastes you're aligned with. And Olive and I just. We love the same stuff. And we've had lots of editors who have completely different tastes for me, which is also great for the magazine. But Olive and I, we really like the same pieces. And I knew she would be so great to work on your piece. I think she's the one who found it in the queue. I'm pretty sure that she sent it to me and I sent her a few notes and then she kind of went back and forth and forth with you and then we had a little bit more back and forth. But I also feel like you had a really strong vision for the piece and what it needed and the tone you wanted it to have and the feeling and stuff like that. And that is, you know, I think one of the reasons probably that it has this kind of, you know, what is for us, kind of a quick turnaround. Didn't. It didn't need like two years of edits or anything like that. I think you kind of knew what it was about.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, I can't imagine. Yes. No. As an editor, I definitely was like in the suit for like some long term edits. But no, no, I mean, Halep was amazing. You were so amazing. And it's so, it's so fun when you have that experience of just really jamming with another editor and like they love what you love. Although I do sometimes love the, the ferocity of like a good, a good story debate. Like what, you know, like what does this piece that like feel like? What are our values? But I mean that's always, that's always fun. As long as everybody agrees that the, the best version of the piece wins, right? Like whatever, with no ego involved. Like whatever the best iteration of this story is, I think when editors and writers and readers are all on board with that premise, it's very special. So I feel like the common has that.

[Emily Everett]

Oh, good. I'm good. One of our favorite aspects of the story is this great framing device which I think our listeners got a little taste of in what you read, which is that Halida is, is telling the story and it's kind of editorializing a little bit, like adding her opinions, gossiping a bit. Can you just talk about including that? I assume that was always part of the story.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, totally. For me, that distance was very important. I love that. Like sort of multi layered. I mean, Kale is not even in first person. Like this is a person telling us what Khalida told them, which she heard from other people about things that may or may not have happened. And for me that was very important in sort of the matryoshki doll of how distanced can we be? How much can the form and the content in this piece really reflect that sense of hearsay and interpretation and what the thing is or was and what the experience of the thing is or was.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So I just, I wanted to leave

[AJ Bermudez]

like really kind of like four layers of like room for hearsay and that sort of playful, liminal space between here's what really happened and here's the story you heard, which to me, this felt like the perfect project for.

[Emily Everett]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. There really are a lot of layers there. And I think, you know, earlier we were talking about pieces that are a little fable, like. And I feel that that distance is one of the things that gives you that. Because, you know, you would think a story being told orally, you know, presumably would be very intimate. But there are these layers of having heard it from someone, and then, you know, no one really knows what those people were thinking. But there's ideas, there's thoughts, there's conjecture, some juicy gossip.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, yeah, I love that fable, like, dynamic so, so much. And, yeah, love toying with that in fiction.

[Emily Everett]

Another part I really loved about this story is Naima's backstory. Naima is the woman who comes to Fez, as you said, to be with Shakir. I'm curious. I mean, I wonder how you know, as much as you want to share with people who might not have read the story yet, about Naima's backstory, Like, was that inspired by anything in particular? How did it come together? It's just such an intriguing circumstance that she comes from.

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[Emily Everett]

Yeah.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think like any great character, it's part internal, part external, part things that you hear or think about and also invent along the way. The character is certainly a quilt like fabrication. She's not based on a single real person, but is certainly inspired by a host of experiences and facts and details and also hearsay. And, you know, I think I wanted to craft a character that could sort of be the small, like, microscopic lens that through which a very large story is told. And I just love this character. I don't know if there's a way to talk about this character without, like, spoilering for people who haven't read the story yet, but I just fucking love this character. And I will say, while the character is a pure fabrication, her name, Naima, which is a name that I absolutely love, is fully stolen from a very dear friend and very gifted authority, Naima Labil Tagamuati, who I befriended in FEZ and I'm currently working on translating her very brilliant collection of short fiction, Fazet un Duog, from the French with a lot of Der Erza. Like just so much Moroccan Arabic in it as well. Super place based Fez, actually. Y' all would probably love that book.

[Emily Everett]

I was gonna say, like, send us an excerpt. Yeah, yeah.

[AJ Bermudez]

Cool. Yeah, there's still a couple stories left, so we'll talk. But. Yes, but she's so awesome. And anyway, so that's where I drew the name from. I think names are super important. And if you can connect to a name that just sort of triggers love for you, you know, that's a win.

[Emily Everett]

Yeah, absolutely. Are there any stories behind some of the other names that you chose or.

[AJ Bermudez]

No. I mean, I like names that are like sort of. I think a couple of them might have etymologies that track. If I were to go. We can do the forensics of that. Very big on names that are etymologically strong, but also just that, like, sound right to the ear. I'm very into the rhythm of the language. Yeah. With my sleepy, travel weary self today, you probably didn't get much of this. But the rhythm of the language, whether read aloud or quietly, is important to me. So. So some of these are just, like, I think, very beautiful, very true. Obviously very historically referenceable, logical choices for names. But also, yes, there are some meanings

[Interviewer/Moderator]

pinned etymologically as well.

[Emily Everett]

It's really interesting. I would love to hear more about your revision process, either for this story in particular or just in general. I mean, it sounds like this story didn't need too much revision before you sent it in. But probably you've had others that needed a lot of, you know, a lot of wrestling.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, yeah, no, I. Well, I'll start by saying, like, this is so bad because I also, like, I'm a professor of writing, but I'm such a bad reviser, Emily. I'm just like the world's worst reviser. I will eventually, like, line up and execute My Darlings, but it is hard for me. And I often edit as I'm writing, which you are also not supposed to do. But, no, I do feel like my first drafts take just for fucking ever. And then are, like, very strong first drafts. But yeah, this is one that I kind of, kind of, you know, marinated on and, like, very joyfully crafted in Morocco initially. And then I was in grad school in 2023 and brought it into workshop to, I guess, like, begrudgingly make some edits. I always disagree with pretty much everything that is said in a workshop environment at the beginning. And then I would like go to sleep and cool off. And I'm like, okay, those are all actually really good ideas. I should do them. So I did them. And then I think the draft was much stronger. So did some revising in Boston during another vicious winter like you were just describing. And then. Yeah, and then I guess the last. So then had such a wonderful experience revising with you and with Olive at the Common. Again, just felt like everyone wanted the best iteration of the story and always loved learning what does and does not land and what can be optimized and

[Interviewer/Moderator]

honed and cut and added and just

[AJ Bermudez]

where there's room for more meat on the skeleton. And I felt like that was such a joyful process. And then. And then actually, interestingly, even post dating these edits. So this story will be included in my next collection of short fiction, tentatively titled the God of Ugly Things. And so my very lovely and brilliant agent at uta, Sarah Fuentes, had some very, very good ideas for little micro tweaks, but also loves this story. And so I think that may be the last cook who was in this particular kitchen. But yeah, so the revision process has actually been much, much longer than the original crafting, which is awesome.

[Emily Everett]

Oh, that's interesting. So maybe you'll have like one more cook in the kitchen, like when it has an editor.

[AJ Bermudez]

Editor. Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure they'll have bang up ideas as well. Or maybe they'll be like, no, the Common and Sarah got it exactly right. No notes.

[Emily Everett]

Yeah. Already polished. Yeah. Oh, that's very exciting. That's a great title for a story collection. That's very exciting that you have one kind of coming together.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, I'm excited too.

[Emily Everett]

When was your first story collection? How long ago was that?

[AJ Bermudez]

Okay. I have to think and maybe we'll just like Google it, but. Oh, yeah, no, 2022. And then because I was thinking it was. I was thinking about the Lambda timing. So it won the Iowa Short fiction prize in 2022 and then was a Lambda Award finalist in 2023. So very end. I think maybe like late November 2022,

[Interviewer/Moderator]

the first collection came out.

[Emily Everett]

Okay. Wow. So not a big. Not a big gap between collections.

[AJ Bermudez]

No, No, I guess not. Yeah. Yeah.

[Emily Everett]

You must be very prolific. I feel like I work so slowly.

[AJ Bermudez]

I feel like I work so slowly. And I, you know, it's so interesting. I also, I just finished my first, what will be my debut novel manuscript. It's actually between us, I guess, and your listeners out on Submission as of yesterday. So the timing is uncanny. Yeah, it's very exciting. I'm really enthused about that project. But a novel is so interesting and sort of monstrous in a way that a short story collection isn't. Like, when I put together my first book, it was like, oh, cool. I have enough short stories to sort of begin curating a collection, whereas a novel, it's just like.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

It's just a beast.

[AJ Bermudez]

And, yeah, it was so much fun to put that together, but because it's so monolithic, I also was discovering. No, you have to pause and celebrate along the way in the way that you would with a short story collection, because it's just too big to wait to the end to pop the champagne. So I did try to treat it that way a little bit in the construction, but, yeah, anyway, a little bit of a digression, but that's where my. My brain is at in the. The first 24 hours of submission.

[Emily Everett]

That's exciting. Yeah, I do. I do feel what you're saying. Like, writing a novel is such a long process with not. Not a lot of breaks in it or anything like that, but I do.

[AJ Bermudez]

Have you done it?

[Emily Everett]

Yeah. And I'm an outliner, so I always can tell.

[AJ Bermudez]

I know.

[Emily Everett]

I know where I'm going. And so when I get to, like, a big, you know, the turning point between X or something like that, like, I'm celebrating. I've been writing up to this moment for months, and now I'm gonna, like, take a week off and just, like, regroup. And then. And then you have to start again. And then I have a whole new crisis of faith because I've lost the, like, North. North Star I was working towards for months. But. But I'm starting to get used to that. Those. Those highs and lows.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, it's such a journey. I would love to, like, connect with you and have a couple drinks and chop it up and. And learn about your outlining process. I also very much worship at the altar of, like, hardcore outlining. I just love it. I've got spreadsheets. I've got color coding. I've got chapter percentages. Like, it's. It's pretty granular. Not to brag.

[Emily Everett]

Well, I mean, but also, that doesn't surprise me too much because I. I know, like, you're sort of in the film world as well, and I feel like. Like, I love a. I love a 3x story structure. Like, I feel like. Like what. Like, some of my favorite things that I listen to and read about writing are actually for screenwriters. Like, I love the script notes podcast. Like, Jama August is great.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah, totally.

[Emily Everett]

Yeah. And, like, the way that they think about plot is so. So practical, but also so organic and profound. Like, I think in the literary world, there can be this separation between, like, plot and literary or, like, as if those things don't intersect or something. And I feel like when I talk to screenwriters, they're not shy about trying to make sure something has a satisfying structure and those kind of things. And I feel like a lot of novelists could use that. I also, of course, on the other hand, sometimes I outline to death, and then it kind of takes all the fun out of the project, and then I have to go back and sort of, like, breathe some life into it. So there are downsides, for sure, but I really do feel glad that I have that sort of outline ahead of me here.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, wow. I mean, those two disciplines, I think, just inform each other so hard. But you're right. I mean, when you're hired to write a film, an outline is literally a thing you not only make, but turn in. Like, producers want to see blessed, which makes sense because there are millions of dollars at stake and. Fair enough. But it is, I think, such a boon to literary writers for whom, boy, like, even just, like, the freedom of a lack of structure. It can feel so oppressive in a way, because it's so overwhelming. I mean, it was the daunting blank page that, you know, the word outlining is kind of neutral almost maybe to the point of cruelty, but, like, maybe terms like mapping a project or charting out a project, it's just like, when you are feeling lost as a literary

[Interviewer/Moderator]

writer, you can go to the fucking

[AJ Bermudez]

chart and you're like, oh, I'm not lost. There's that constellation I set in the sky. We're cool. Like, I don't. I can cut it out with this dead reckoning nonsense. And like. Like, I know where I am now.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

I have something to do.

[AJ Bermudez]

And I think that that's really, really empowering in the same way that, you know, as a. As a filmmaker, as a screenwriter, it's also very essential to allow for the breadth and the non Western, non normative, non linearity of, like, some very, very brilliant cinematic storytelling. So, yes, I think, like, the fealty to, or resistance to structure can certainly be coalesced into something healthier for all. All writing disciplines.

[Emily Everett]

Yeah, I agree. I'm curious about how your life as a literary writer and also as a writer and director in the film world, like, how do those things intersect? Which came first? You know, how do they inform each other?

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, for me, they inform each other a great deal. I actually literally directly after this interview, am running across campus to a screening of the last film I wrote, which is fun and I think probably, yeah, so my dead friend Zoe, which I co wrote with the director, Kyle Houseman Stokes. Brilliant. Yes. Why would I not plug my own movie? Yeah, my dead friend Zoe, which is. Yeah, we were so fortunate. I'm so grateful for that project and that team and Kyle, the director and I are actually working on another project which is, I'm pleased to announce, structurally sound. Also very exciting action romance movie which, yeah, I'm very, very amped about and which maybe talk more about on another occasion. But yes, for me, I think the rules of screenwriting and the rules of literary fiction just have so much to teach each other and I love talking to my students about that as well. For example, like the, the immediacy, the urgency, the fidelity to satisfying endings and that sort of thing of cinema. These are such great things for literary fiction writers to consider. Just as a smattering in the same way that the looseness and the voice and the creativity and the openness to inspiration of literary fiction writing is so valuable for screenwriting. And so I think playing with as many tools as possible is always a good idea for a writer. Having as many sets of skills in your belt is, I think, just never a waste of time. So, yeah, I highly advocate taking literary fiction stories and rewriting them in screen or play script format and then putting them back, seeing what can be cut, seeing where efficiency can win the day or actually the complete lack of concision. My answer is like a very bad example of this, but also where there's room for breath and emotion and just like the. Really, again, deep down, palimpsestic character development. How can that shine through in a screenwriting pocket anyway? A long answer to a short question, but yeah, no, they inform one another tremendously and I love writing in those and other genres.

[Emily Everett]

Did you start in film or start as in writing or did they not even feel separate to you?

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, in a way they don't feel separate. But I've definitely been writing literary fiction since I was extremely, extremely small. I like to joke that my first book was a folded in half sheet of 8 and a half by 11 paper, illustrated on the front of course. And then it's. It becomes a book. It's called Karate Princess and the rights are still available for anyone who wants. It's very good. But yeah, no, so literary fiction forever. Because it's like free and easy to do. And then I actually, I got into playwriting pretty hard when I was living in Chicago and then on the east coast and then pivoted to screenwriting primarily. Kind of as my bread and butter for years, but have always been fiction writing kind of throughout. It feels sort of impossible not to, but. Yeah, no, screenwriting is probably my most recent but also like biggest portion of my career in recent years.

[Emily Everett]

That's very interesting. Sort of in this time of life where I feel like a lot of my friends are starting to. Yeah. Switch. Switch to screenwriting or they're adapting their books and that kind of thing.

[AJ Bermudez]

It's just.

[Emily Everett]

I'm so fascinated by it.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, it's interesting. Have you dabbled in that space at all?

[Emily Everett]

Not really. Or not in a way that I'm allowed to talk about.

[AJ Bermudez]

Ooh, I love that. That's so intriguing. Okay, cool. We will also save that for off camera drinks.

[Emily Everett]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm curious, you know, when we were scheduling, you said you were filming something this year or maybe into next year. Do you want to talk about that at all?

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, yeah. Production will probably move into 2027. You know, these runways are long, but yeah, I'm working on a couple of projects right now. I mentioned the latest with Kyle. Certainly the latest solo script that I wrote was actually that one that I was beginning to research in Morocco called Man of War, which is very cool, kind of a big globe, trotting, actiony sort of. Yeah, like a spy thriller, but about decolonization and multiplicitous from a female of color lead, which I'm very passionate about. And then, yeah, I actually just signed on. I guess I can talk about it now. I signed on for a new book adaptation feature project that I'm really excited about, based on Idrinowi's book Take what yout need, which I would also describe as extraordinarily place based. I don't know if you've read it, but it's set in the mountains of very rural western Pennsylvania and is, I think, another one of those books that I'm drawn to because it's so specific in the way that it crystallizes a large scale collective, communal place into the distillation of really specific on the ground character experiences. And sort of playing that micro layer against the macro layer is just one of my favorite things to do in any genre. So, yeah, I've had the opportunity to adapt books for film or TV a

[Interviewer/Moderator]

few times now and it's just always so fascinating to reiterate a story and optimize it for a particular avenue.

[AJ Bermudez]

So we're right at the beginning of that process. But yeah, couldn't be more grateful for it.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So those are a few of the things going on.

[AJ Bermudez]

More. More to be announced. We talk. But yes.

[Emily Everett]

So you have novel on submission, short story collection, basically ready to go. Films. Wow, you're making me feel like I'm not getting enough done.

[AJ Bermudez]

You are definitely getting enough done. And I think that if you don't feel like you're not getting enough done, you might not be a writer and. Or human.

[Emily Everett]

Yeah. I don't remember who said it, but it's like being a writer is like giving yourself homework for the rest of your life.

[AJ Bermudez]

And it's like, oh my God, it

[Emily Everett]

really does feel like that sometimes.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, yeah. And it, and it totally is. I mean, it's so goofy, but also like, what a joy, these things we get to do. I've been trying to extricate certain language from my vocabulary, like deadlines and due dates and like all of these just like etymologically nonsense carceral terms that we apply to writing, which is like, what the fuck? Like, this is generative. We get to do this. It's so wild. And then for you, the editorial process as a collaborative art making act is so special and so cool. So, yes, sometimes I feel like I'm drowning under the self imposed homework or externally imposed homework. Sometimes deadlines are real. But no, it's so important. Important to remind ourselves as writers that what we get to do is at the end of the day, a joy.

[Emily Everett]

Yeah, no, you're totally right. And I do feel like one of the blessings of working at a literary magazine and probably I would think for you, working on film, which is so collaborative, it's just like writing itself can be so solitary. And I'm so glad I have this. Like I get to be on the other side too and do the fun collaborative stuff and the bringing it out into the world stuff. So it's a little bit like being on both sides.

[AJ Bermudez]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it can be a drag and it can be very lonely to engage in a very solitary experience of literary writing. But I think there are also ways to make it more collaborative, more. More film, like, if you will, in the process itself, and bringing people into the process, going to readings, chopping it up with your trusted friends and allies around things, you know, kind of time releasing readers. And I think ultimately even from like the first word of a short story, thinking about getting to share it with readers, like getting to share it with other humans at some point and how special and collaborative that is. Even if the collaboration is just your words and another person's imagination.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

I mean, how special.

[Emily Everett]

That's very well said. Usually our last question is that we ask folks what they're working on now and what's next, but maybe you feel like you've already told us everything.

[AJ Bermudez]

We did kind of do that. I think I've talked about everything I'm, like, legally allowed to talk about.

[Emily Everett]

Okay, great. Well, that's more than enough for us to look forward to.

[AJ Bermudez]

Great. Yes. I was trying to think if there was something just like real, real juicy that I could share with you, but yeah, yeah, there's probably something that I will remember the moment we hop off this call, as these things go.

[Emily Everett]

In the meantime, everyone who hasn't yet can read your story and subscribe to the latest issue at the Common Online.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yes, please do that.

[Emily Everett]

And AJ Bermudez, thanks. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been really great to talk with you. This has been very, very fun.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Likewise.

[AJ Bermudez]

Emily, thank you so much.