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Alaina M. Morgan, "Atlantic Crescent: Building Geographies of Black and Muslim Liberation in the African Diaspora" (UNC Press, 2025)
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A
Hello everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
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Hello, and welcome to another new episode of the New Books Network. My name is Shobana Xavier and I hope you're safe and well wherever you are. And thank you so much for joining us today on our episode. Today we are joined by Elena Morgan, who's an assistant professor of history at the University of Southern California, to discuss her new book, Atlantic Building Geographies of Black and Muslim Liberation in the African Diaspora, which was published by the University of North Carolina Press in 2025. In her book, Morgan introduces the conceptual framework of Atlantic Crescent to capture the overlapping encounters and movements between black, Afro Caribbean and South Asian Muslim diasporas in the United States and the Caribbean. Using rich archival material such as the Nation of Islam's Muhammad Speaks, we Learn of the 20th century Black Muslim movements such as the Moorish Science Temple and the Nation of Islam as they encounter, engage with South Asian Muslim communities such as the Ahmadiyya movement in the US and how their discourses of anti imperial and decolonial Muslim struggle shaped each other. The second half of the book takes us to Bermuda to trace the translation of these Black Muslim freedom movements into the Caribbean. In focusing on the flow and encounters of these overlapping diasporas, we learn how anti imperial and anti colonial discourses were inhabited by varied South Asian, Black and Afro Caribbean diaspora. Communities and how organizing, be it around labor and education against imperial and colonial powers, utilized notions of an Islam through black and Afro diasporic Muslim registers. Morgan's sharp analysis of these rich diasporic flows chart new geographies of freedom struggles and resistance. The study will be of interest to scholars who think and write on Islam in the global west and the Caribbean Diaspora studies anti colonialism and anti imperialism in relationship to Muslim organizing, the Nation of Islam, the Moorish Science temple, the Ahmad Ziya movement, and much more. In our conversation today, Elena and I spoke about her idea of the Atlantic Crescent that structures the book, the methods of archives and the methodology of archiving.
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And we spoke about figures like Malcolm.
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X and Fidel Castro, Abdul Basid Naim and the Nation of Islam Muslim women who organized for religious education for Muslim children in Bermuda. So without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Elena Morgan about her new book Atlantic Crescent Building Geographies of Black and Muslim Liberation in the African Diaspora.
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C
Hi, Alaina. Thank you so much for joining us on the new books and Islamic studies podcast. How are you doing?
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D
I'm okay. Hi, Shobana. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you about my book and about everything.
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C
Oh, that's great. I'm really excited. I just finished reading it last night and it's called Atlantic Building a Black and Muslim Liberation in the African Diaspora. So we have a tradition on the new books in Islamic Studies podcast to get to know a little bit about who you are and what led to writing this particular book. So did you want to say a little bit about your intellectual journey and what brought you to this project?
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D
Yeah. Okay. So my intellectual journey, I think, was pretty long to the book. Like, being an academic was my second career, so I started out being a avenue attorney. But actually I want to back up a little bit and just go back to college because I was a religion major in call. I actually was a psychology major in college, but I started taking all these religion classes and I was like, this is so interesting. Right? This is so compelling. And it aligned with my own journey about how I felt about religion. Right. Like, I grew up Catholic and about, you know, part of the way into, like, my confirmation process, I realized that I didn't believe in the God that they were talking about anymore. And I started asking my dad, like, you know, do I really have to do that? Do I really have to go through with this? Because, like, I really don't believe in it. I find it quite disrespectful for Me to sit there and say that, like, I believe that Jesus is the son of God. And when I don't, he was like, no, you have to go. And I was like, oh, okay. All right. Well, let me now intellectualize this, right? Which is, like, probably, like, a common thing, right? Like, for academics. You're like, okay, like, let me think about this intellectually, since I can't do anything about it personally. And so I started to think about the ways that people, like, the reasons that people choose the religious traditions that they choose when they choose them. What does religion mean for people? What does it do for people? You started to think, like, maybe there's a religious tradition that, like, actually would, like, empower me instead of feeling like it's oppressing me, right? And those are things that I all took, that I took with me. I. You know, I wanted to go to grad school for religion. I ended up going to law school instead. And then when the financial crash happened, it was like, a sign to me that I was so happy that I had gotten laid off. I was like, I need to do something else my life. I started taking classes, and I was like, you know what? I was like, I've always wanted to be a professor. I was like, I'm gonna go do that. And so, like, I just kind of. I mean, I was interested in. In religion. I was interested in Islam in particular, because I grew up in the New York. I mean, everybody was interested in 9 11, right? Like, but I grew up in the New York area, right? I could see the towers from my sophomore year dorm room, right? And so I felt like I had a personal connection to it, but I also was so disturbed by the narratives about Muslims that people were spouting, right? And so I was like, I need. I want to rethink this, right? Like, and that. So that was the project. So that I kind of latched onto, like, particularly, like, combining those two things, which was. The initial project was Muslims After Black. Black People Converting to Islam after 9 11. So I was like, okay, why would people choose to be a double minority? And then I got into a history program, and then I had to think about it historically, right? So it. I mean, I'm so happy to be a historian. Like, I love having, like, a discipline that ground, like, you know, a methodology, like an accepted methodology that, like, grounds me. And I'm grateful that I was. That my advisor took me on, right? So that I could eventually, you know, write this book. So that's, like, basically how I came to the idea. I mean, this is Actually came out of a paper that I wrote for a grad seminar, right? So I. The exact thing, right? It was that I was like, okay, like, I'm gonna. It was a class on New York, Black New York. I went to the Schomburg. I looked at a bunch of issues of Muhammad Speaks, and I was like, this is so rich. Like, I was like, these. I was like, these. These newspapers are so layered, right? Like, there's so much going on here. Visually, discursively, everything, right? Like, people have called. Who was it that called the. I think it was Garret Felber recently. Like, no, I'm sorry, it was Manning Marable. Totally different person, like, called that. Called the newspapers like, schizophrenic. And when I read them, I was. These are not schizophrenic at all. I was like, there's, like, a logic to why these things that are seemingly disparate are on the same page with each other. And that was kind of like the genesis of the book. And then obviously, I sat with that for, like, a decade. So that published the book.
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C
I love that so much. I didn't know that you were a lawyer, but now that I'm thinking about certain sections of the book, I could see how some of the background and your own journey has informed just such an insightful analysis that you bring to certain kind of moments. I want to ask about the newspapers, actually, because I'm so amazed by just like, as you say, the rich stories that really formed this book and all throughout it. I'm just really amazed also with how you were able to tell these stories. And there were really different stories that are taking us to different places. And so can you walk us through more about, like, you know, defining the archive, what constitutes the archive, but also how you really intentionally have stretched it. Like, there's, like, really important stretching work that you're doing, and I don't know if that's the right word, but how.
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D
How.
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C
How did you come to that? You know, how did you continue with the archives as you did?
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D
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I think that this is. Look, like I'm a people person. Like, I'm a stories person. I'm not. Like, I think that probably the initial reason that I never took. No, I took one history course in college. 1. And I think that that was because I never really thought that I could be a historian, because I had never. It's not that I didn't think that, like, things that happened in the past were interesting. It's because the way that, like, I was taught history back, like, in our 90s, right? Was like, here are, like, a list of dates and times, and please memorize these and regurgitate them for the AP test, right? Like, so it's not that I didn't like it, it's just that I did. I didn't think it was particularly compelling, right? So, like, the fact that I ended up as a historian, actually, like, it's completely accidental, right? Like, it's that I had somebody who really trusted that my, like, ardent desire to study this particular topic would yield something, right? That would. That I would be able to turn it around and become a historian, right? And I would just have a str. Like a total stroke of luck, like, that particular year, because I think that all the other candidates in Diaspora had already had, like, declined, right? So it was like, oh, okay. I was the. The. You know what I mean? Like, and so I was like, okay, like, I have a real shot. But still, if. I mean, if my advisor did a. It didn't believe in me, like, it wouldn't have happened. But I was just very lucky that I had somebody who thought I could do it. And, you know, I think because of that, I think that I am still much more interested in the stories, like, and the themes. Like, I've always just been, like, more interested in the stories and the themes that unite people and more willing to use, like, different sources, right? Differently. A friend of mine said that her student was writing, was using newspaper short projects and was doing it, like, very boringly. And she was like, you should read my friend's book. And then she said that he read it, and then his next paper was so much better. And I was like, that makes me so happy, right? Like, that makes me so happy that, like, he could, like, learn something, right? Like, about how to use, like, a source in a particular way. I didn't, like, I guess anything constitutes a story. I mean, like, for me, like, the newspapers. The newspapers are just so. And people have written about them before, right? Like, Edward Curtis wrote an entire book about those newspapers. And still, right? Like, I. I think that probably, like, I'm the first person to look. I hate the word palimpsest, right? But, like, I feel like people are using it too much these days. That's why I hate it. But people are, you know, like, I feel like that's what it. It's just like. Like, these, like, layers on top of layers on top of layers, right? Like. Or like an onion, right? It's like, okay, like, I'm seeing, like, the Initial, like, this is a business project, right? Like a business project combined with, like, an evangelism project, right? Like, here are the ads. Here's like, the. Like, trying to get people to convert, like, saying, like, what we are all those things, and you could stop at that. But then it's like, okay, like, you get to see, like, what really matters to people, right? And, like, the thing that I really loved, like, in the. In the book was I, like. I really like the. The chapter. In chapter six, the, like, the letters to the editor, right? Like, surrounding, like, the war on drugs. Like, those, to me, I think, are really interesting and compelling because it's like, I want it. I mean, I guess, like, let me just say, like, I. I want to. Like, I hope and I hope that this comes through. Like, I mean, like, what I care about the most is people. Like, I care about the most about how it is that. What are people doing? What are people feeling? How are people being affected, right, like, by all of these different dynamics? And I think that I consider myself to be an intellectual historian, but, like, I do get pushback about that, right? Like, because people are like, oh, well, you know, people don't necessarily. People are only caring about the ideas. And I'm like, grum Shan intellectual. Like, you know, like, organic intellectual. Anybody. Just like, you know, I feel like all of these people are, like, doing something intellectual, right? Like, and I. And they're, like, having feelings, and they're, you know, being affected by, like, what's going on around them. And. And that, to me, is really interesting, right? And. Okay, so your other question. So your one question was about the newspapers and then about the source, like, the.
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C
Well, I think even you've answered it and just thinking about what you do with the sources, because I. What I loved is, as you said, a lot of the chapters or a few of the chapters are really centered around figures and people. And it's. And the way you've written it is so amazing that you kind of get lost in the fact that you have gone into the archives and you have taken. You know, you've engaged with the archives, and you come out and you're telling us really, these important stories, and you forget when you're reading it that you're, like, you know, not an ethnographer. Like, you've actually, like, are, like, telling these stories based off this content or these primary sources you're engaging with. And I think I was just moved by that, is what I'm trying to say.
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D
Well, I'm so. Yeah, I'm so happy I'm so glad. I, like, yeah, I wanted to center it around people, and I wanted it to write. I wanted to write it in a way that was like, more like, here are a bunch of stories as opposed to, like, on the 1st of July, you know, which is fine. That's like, a method, you know, and I use that method, too. But look, I really wanted it to be, like, these are about, like, people, right? Like, these are the people, right, that are at the heart of the story. And, like, let me tell you, like, what I know about them, which some, in some cases, like, is not much, you know, Like, I would like to know more about Abdul Basina. You know, Like, I. I would love to know more about him. I would love to know more about, You know, like, I would love to. I don't know that much about him. Right. Like, but it's, you know, like, I. I took what I had, and I'm like, okay, like, let me see. We're guests, right? And I. I hope that when I. When I guess I, like, try to be clear about the fact that I don't. I really don't know. Right. Cliffy Archive is not. But I'm also a human being, right. And I know how people act, so I feel like I can make those leaps.
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C
I mean, it reminded me of, like, you know, Sadia Hartman. So the idea of, like, how do you fabulate with what's, you know, available to you? But how do you fill in these pieces? Because, yeah, we, at some point, with certain archives that don't exist for certain communities intentionally, right. From, like, particular levels, that kind of intervention and that kind of act is necessary. And so I think that's what really resonated. And, yeah, I'm just. Anyway, just all praise is all I'm trying to say. So I guess the conceptual focus of the book is this idea of Atlanta Crescent. And so it kind of hinges on this kind of imagined geography, as you say you're trying to get the reader to think about. So can you say a little bit about what this Atlantic Crescent is and what you're trying to do with it conceptually, ultimately?
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D
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, obviously, like, it's an imaginary. Right. I think that I. You know, it's a way that I can unite kind of, like, all of these populations, like, from the United States right. To the Caribbean to, like, Europe in some instances, even though I, you know, I don't really talk about Europe that much in my book. Right. And I think that the way the work, that it kind of does is like, you know, I think of like a moon, right? Like as the crescent as frozen, like in not frozen, but like I see it as like a part of like multiple moon phases, right? Like, so when you look at a, like when you look at the moon in the sky, right? It's like perspective based, right? Like it depends on where the earth is. It depends on like, are you Northern hemisphere or Southern hemisphere, right? Like, it's like the exact orientation of it depends on like where you're looking at it. And so for me, I'm like, this is a really compelling analogy, right? Because I think the Atlantic Crescent is about like every person's individual experiences, right, With Islam and race. It's about how individual communities, individual people at like very specific times, right, in history and very specific geographies are like molding their relationship to Islam and race, right? And thinking about the things that it can do for them in terms of fighting for freedom and fighting for justice and fighting for liberation, right? From colonialism, imperialism, like racial violence and all of those perspectives, right? Like they change, right? Like they change over time and they're different, like, from person to person to. From community to community. Like, I don't think any person's, any two people's Atlantic Crescent, right? Like it's exactly the same, right? It's not meant to be stuck. It's meant to be something, the result of various factors that push and pull on communities. And so obviously the crescent is because of Islam, right? But I really liked the idea of the moon, right? And the work that the moon does and the work that that analogy does in terms of really exemplifying these dynamics, right, that are acting on and being acted on by these communities. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is a debit card in the number one family finance and safety app used by millions of families, helping kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. Parents can send their kids money and track their spending and saving while kids build money, confidence and skills in fun ways. Start your risk free greenlight trial today@greenlight.com Spotify that's greenlight.com Spotify and you kind.
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C
Of guide us through in two separate sections in the book about how some of this, I think overlapping diasporas that you're engaging with are like emerging with some groups. And so in chapter one, you talk about specifically Marcus Garvey and the Unia and noble Jo Ali and the Moorish Science temple. And also what I really appreciate is you're bringing in, you know, Mufti Muhammad and the Ahmadiyya, so you're not actually treating them as these, like, siloed kind of envelopes, but you're trying to get us, which I think is really one of the important things of this book, because a lot of the studies on Islam in America treat some of these, like, siloed moments. But you're really reminding us how so much of this is overflowing. So what do we. What do we gain ultimately when we take that perspective of full ups overlap as opposed to the historical tendency in the field to treat them as, like, separate, you know, realities?
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D
Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, I mean, I was trained as a diaspora historian, right? Like, so I think I always look at things in terms of overlap, and I think that. I guess I don't. I think that you can't really. I. I mean, I think that you have to look at everything in terms of overlap, right? Because communities are not siloed, right? Like, they're, like, brushing up against each other. They're sliding up against each other, right? Like in these cities, and particularly because these are black or other minoritized communities, right? Like South Asian people that immigrate to the United States are not living in white communities. They're living, like, in communities of color, right? Right up against these people, right? Like African Americans and, like, Afro Caribbean people, much to Afro Caribbean people's, like, dismay, right? Like, are living right up against these, right? Like, all of these communities. And so to me, it makes perfect sense. If you're shoved up against people, whether you like them or not, there's going to be some sort of engagement, right? Like, look at, for instance, like, Du Bois and Garvey, right? Like they hated each other, right? Like they despised each other. But at the same time, right? Like, they could not help but having to engage with each other, right? Like, even in the, like, the chirps that they did with each other, like, even in, like, negging each other or critiquing each other, they were engaging with each other, right? Like, so I think that to see, right, like, even something like the Great Migration as just African American migration, right? Like, just people from black people from the south coming to the north, right? Like, in their struggles. I was like, well, what if I. It was actually really crazy because I was like, okay. I was like, I need something. I need to figure something. I had most of the book written and I was like, well, now I need the introduction, right? And I'm writing this introduction and I'm just like, this is so boring. I was like, this introduction is so boring. Like, I can't. I was like, what is it that unites this entire book? I'm like, okay, I have the Atlantic Crescent. That's great. I was like, but what is this book really about? What is the most important thing that happens that catalyzes all of this or that explains all these dynamics? And then I was like, oh, my God. Earl Lewis's overlap. It's diaspora. It's like. I was like, this is it, right? And so to me, I was like, oh, that explains everything. And I don't know why I didn't think of that sooner, and probably because I was working on the other chapters. But, like, I. When I put it all together, I was like, this is a story about overlap, right? Like, it's about, like, cultural exchange, intellectual exchange, all of these things. And, you know, I mean, it just made, like, perfect. It just made sense to me. Like, that's. That should be like, one of the framing. The framing aspects, right, like, of the book.
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C
And I saw this really clearly in chapter two with Abdul Basat Naim. Like, I never heard of this person. I didn't know the story, but, like, it clicked for me as this chapter came out and what you were really trying to convey. So can you tell us a little bit about who this person is? And I think you're really using this person to represent maybe like a micro. Micro history of kind of a bigger thing that's going on. So can you walk us through this a little bit?
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D
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's other people. There are other people that are kind of like him. People that have, like, you know, are from, like, places where Islam is like, the majority religion, and they kind of, you know, influence or like, service consultants, like, for black. For, you know, black national communities, most of the Nation of Islam. But, you know, I found him in the newspaper, right? And I realized that this guy was writing a regular column, right? And the columns were entitled things like a real Muslim's take on, like. Or a Pakistani Muslims take, like on X, Y and Z, right? And I'm like, well, this is so interesting because the thing that I had initially been interested in was the Nation of Islam's international Islam, right? Like, I was interested in how or were they reflecting the colonial. The struggle for independence from all of these, right. Like, colonies, like all these European colonies. And then I was, well, this is really interesting, right? And then I, like, read these things and I realized, like, he's trying to, like, he's being hired to, like, give these people legitimacy, right? Like, he's being hired to put his stamp on the brand of Islam that they're practicing as a real Muslim, right? Like, quote, unquote, right? Like, as the Nation of Islam is constantly, like, being accused of not being realist. Realist, right? Like, or some sort of aberration. But Abdul Basi Naim is a really interesting character. I mean, like, people have written about him in the past very briefly, because the archival rocker is very thin, right? Like, we have his columns that he did in the. In Muhammad Speaks. We have some of the introductions that he did for Nation of Islam books. We have some, like, NYPD bossy reports, like, the police reports where he's called in to be questioned, right? So we have some of that. You have a couple of letters, right? So honestly, like, Abdul Naim has been, like, my personal project since. Since, like, grad school. Like, I'm like, this person is so interesting. It's like, he comes to the United States right after Pakistani independence, right? He goes to this little college in Michigan that actually was this beacon for international students. Like, international. A ton of international students, like, went there. It was his teacher's college. And he arrives, like, with basically no money and just, like, an ardent desire to, like, make a name for himself in journalism. Like, and right then he gets married, and he has, like, all of these trials and tribulations, and then eventually he. He meets Sheikh Faisal, right? Like, has a relationship with him, and then eventually meets Elijah Muhammad. And that, like, kind of seals their, like, decades long, like, relationship. But the thing is, is that the archive doesn't not give you a sense of Naim's personality or family life, right? Like, those are the two things that, like, you're like, okay, like, this person is. You know, it's contracted with the Nation of Islam. Like, you kind of get that he is, like, interested in internationalism from a very young age, right? Like, you know, kind of how he meets. Right. Elijah Muhammad. But none of that is particularly compelling or interested. You know, it's like. And a lot of people have kind of portrayed him as this, like, opportunist to, like, almost, like, not genuine, right? And I was like, you know what? I think, like, multiple things can be true at the same time. Like, one. I don't know if it's like, the psychology classes that I took and. Or my desire to psychoanalyze everybody, right? Like, but when I was reading about him, I was like, this is a person who has, like, a ton of ambition. Like, he, He. He is, like, extremely ambitious, and he is scrappy. And if anybody is schizophrenic in the way that they write or they jump from topic to topic is this guy. I always suspected that his family life was very complicated. There's, like, one single picture of, like, him and his wife, like, that's published. It's, like, public record. But he never. He mentions that he has kids. He doesn't really say anything about them. And then I was like, okay, I was like, I need to find out more about this guy. I mean, like, as the years have gone on, because ancestry, like, loads more and more documents. Like, you got to thank the Mormons for this, I guess, right? Like, because they load more and more, like, of these, like, vital life documents, right? Like, in documents from, like, the National Archives and everything. Every year, I've been able to find out more and more and more and more, right? Like, so I know when he came to the US I know every time he left, right? Like, I know when he came, when he comes back, like, oh, now he has a new baby, right? Like, so that means, like, okay, Zuleika's pregnant. Oh, now Zuleika's pregnant again, right? The poor woman was constantly pregnant. Really bad. Like, they had, like, five kids and they were very young, you know, But I couldn't really find out that much. Like, it was, like, I kind of was, like, piecing together the story. So a lot of it, like, had to do with, okay, like, what's my understanding of human nature, right? Like, and how can, like, a person be both? Because I think that he really tried to do something good, right? Like, I think he thought he was doing something good because I couldn't find a lot about him. People had only ever written maximum, like, a couple of pages. I contacted his son at one point. Like, his son is a professor at Columbia. He's like, a geologist. Ecologist. He's an ecologist. I'm like, some science. And I never got a response. I. I sent him an email, basically being like, listen, hi, this is who I am. I'm doing a project. I'm your dad. I know families are complicated, and I know that you may not want to. I. I was like, I don't know anything about your relationship with your father, but I know that there is a chance that maybe you don't want to talk to me about this, right? Like, please know that I don't have any bad intentions, but. And I totally understand if I never hear back from you, but I Would like to talk to you, you know, And I never received a response back. And I just kind of figured, yeah, he didn't want to talk to me because he, you know, Naim always seems like a type. The type of character who was very polarizing, even in his personal life. And then years later, maybe, like, two years later, I got an email from the guy who had never read my email. I guess it just got. He said that he had heard a pot, like, a recording, like, seen a recording that I had done about Naim at this conference at Duke. And he just was like, oh, I. You know, I. I wanted to talk to you because, like, I, you know, I'm so interested in all of this interest in my dad. He's like, you know, because I had written. Written about it. Garrett Felber had written about it a little bit, right? Like, so there was, like, this burgeoning interest in. In his father. He's like, it's so interesting to me that people are, like, care so much. And he basically, like. And, you know, we sent a few emails back and forth, and he basically confirmed that, you know, his father was, like, a very difficult person, right? Like, and he shared some pictures with me. So one of the pictures that's in the book is from him. I don't know. I didn't use. I mean, like, the actual. It's interesting because the actual information that I got from those emails was so little, right? Like, it was like, one. I knew that he had died. Like, I was like, great, now I know that he's dead. And he died in this year because I had been wondering for years. And then he moved back to Pakistan. And then it's like, I got confirmation that he had a difficult family life. And those were, like, two things. But for some reason, talking to his son made me understand him, like, so much more. Like, it made me understand, like, him as a person so much more. And it confirmed everything that, like, I kind of thought about him, right? That, like, I felt like. And that, to me, made all of his actions and all of the things that he wrote and all of the things that he did kind of come to life in a way that I think that it wouldn't have if I hadn't talked to him. So it's like. I mean, back to your question about sources, right? And archives and everything. You know, the archive can only tell us so much, right? Like, and one archive can only tell you so much. It's like, I feel like the real story is at the overlap of all of these different source materials. Right. Like, what could you get from government archives, from private papers, from talking to somebody. Right. Like, about their memories. I'm talking to multiple people about the same event. Right. Like, and seeing how they remember it. Either either the same or differently. What can you get from going to that place? Right. Like, and feeling like what it was like to be there or looking at it. And so, like, I try to bring all of those things together, and I think that I had to do that for Naim because there's really just not that much information about him. Right. Like, there's only so much you can do with, like, reading all of his columns and being like, this is what he said in this. You know, so.
- [36:43]
C
No, I so appreciated this chapter. And I also so appreciated that I noticed that you had reached out to the son, and then there were some information in there about the contact. And so I imagine that that was probably, like, a really powerful moment that you have this archival relationship with somebody and then you're connecting with a direct descendant and then having a different conversation with them as well. Yeah. And I think this kind of set of relationships are also continuing into. Or different kinds of relationships, because one of the themes of the book is really around, as you mentioned, internationalism, anti imperialism, and how some of this is kind of showing up in the newspaper, but also with figures. And so Malcolm X and Castro feature a lot in kind of chapter three, which I really. You see pictures and you kind of hear these stories, but I really love kind of some of the work that you're trying to get out as a continuity of these overlaps and these brushing against each other, political ideas and, like, you know, cultural things that are going on. So did you want to speak a little bit about Muhammad speaks and specifically what was conveyed about maybe the interaction between Malcolm X and Castor and perhaps what was not necessarily conveyed, but it's, like, conveyed in other ways, because I thought this was also fascinating.
- [38:05]
D
I don't think that Mohammed Speaks really said much more about Malcolm's relationship with Castro or his meeting with Castro.
- [38:14]
C
Yeah.
- [38:15]
D
Unjust to say that Castro was there and he had been very mistreated. Right. Like, by the UN People. He had been very mistreated. Right. Like, at these hotels, and that this was like, a racialized thing, but at that particular time. Right. Like, and Malcolm kind of portrayed it as. He's a part of this coordinating committee, like, this Harlem coordinating committee that's, like, tasked with kind of dealing with the diplomatic. Diplomatic relations, like, with the leaders of African Third World countries. Right. Like, they. He's tasked with this, right? Like, he's part of this committee. He has an office in the hotel Teresa, right? Like, when Castro is denied entry from. To all of these hotels, when he's, like, kicked out of that hotel. I think it's like the Shelmer Hotel in midtown, right? Like, Malcolm is the one that really springs into action and is like, oh, okay, well, you should come to the hotel Teresa. And then we could, like, make this a public relations thing. You know, whatever. He portrays it, right? In the Nation of Islam. Like, kind of portrays it as, like, he kind of just was around. He was like, the only person that was around at the time. And that's why, like, he. But it's. I. It can't be that way, right? Like, I don't. I don't believe that he. I. I don't believe that that's the case. It doesn't make any sense to me, right? Like, Malcolm had a relationship with the Hotel Teresa, so it. Like, why would he just be the only person around, right, that he. And when you look at the pictures from that night, right, like, it's like the Nation of Islam had, like, a very public stance on Cuba, right? That they were like, we support their struggles as an. As to. To buck off, like, us. Like, US Imperialism and. Right? Like, all of these, you know, attempts to, like, control them. Right? Like, but the Soviet Union, like, and the United States, but we do not agree, right, with what's happening there in terms of communism, right? Like, they're like, we. We should not agree with them and we are not on board with it. And it's interesting to me, right, that they. They go out of. And the discourse changes, right, like, over time, right? Like, they. They eventually do become very supportive of Cuba, like, even though they're communist, right? But I think that, like, for me, it's like the pictures of those of that night, right? Like, that I think are very compelling because this is not. These are not cheap. And I mean, listen, like, we all know Malcolm is very charismatic, and he. And I think Caster probably was charismatic too, right? Like, you don't become. You just don't get the position that he was in, right? Like, without having a little bit of charisma, right? Like, so it's totally possible that the two of them are just putting each other on. But I like to think that, like, some of those pictures, it's like, when they're, like, laughing together and, like, having these, like, intense conversations with each other, right? There's not a hint of, like, this is a diplomatic duty, right? Like, for me, in their eyes, like, I've been to many meetings where I was like, I gotta get through this meeting, and then I can go home and go to bed or take a nap. And I don't see that in them. It's very late when they're meeting, right. Like, it's like something like 2am right. Like, so it's like, it's very, very late. Like, and I think that, you know, the facts that they're up, like, just like chopping it up, laughing at each other. Like, I think that that says something. Right. Like, about, like, the way that they feel, like, the potentiality of their relationship. And to me, that's really interesting. Right. Like, again, it's like, what does this relationship do for the way that the nation is, is framing. Right. Like, their relationship to imperialism and to colonialism.
- [42:36]
C
So I love that. Yeah. I'm just looking at the picture as you're talking, and it's hard to miss. Yeah. Just like, kind of the ease in which they're in each other' company. Right. And their body language and the smiling, the laughter, which I really appreciate. So something interesting happens in the second half of the book, which is you shift us to Bermuda. So can you talk a little bit about that and what that is doing to kind of the broader narrative that you're trying to get us to think about?
- [43:05]
D
Yeah, I mean, this is a thing, right? Like about this overlapping diasporas thing. Right. Like, it's that I feel like people write. Sure, yes. They write books about Islam in the Caribbean. They write books about Islam in other parts of the world. They write books about how, like, African American culture or, you know, the United States is, like, influenced. Right. Like all of these places. But I, I, I didn't think that there was really, like, a conversation about, like, how circulation of people and ideas, right. Like, to this, to the Caribbean. Right. Like, it's really, like, affecting the development of Islam right, in those places. The thing with Bermuda is, like, it's like, I think it's, you know, like, it's like, we always deal with these things that are like, oh, okay, like, is this a anomaly? Or, like, is this special or is this representative? I don't necessarily think that the things that happen in Bermuda are representative because I've looked at other Caribbean islands, and while, like, yes, there is, like, some Muslim activity, it just is not exactly like it is in Bermuda. It's not as robust. It's the thing with the Brazil, like, the, the Bermudian Muslim community is that they're extremely politically Active, like, not just in terms of, like, being, you know, dissidents or, like, opposing, right? Like, these, like, political structures, right, that are oppressing them, but they, like, are really politically active, right? Like, they're like, like, very much, like, engaged with, like, the Bermudian political system, like, actively fight for independence in multiple ways. So I think that, like, the thing about Bermuda that I thought was just really fast. I mean, I found the k. These cases because I went to the National. The National Archives in the uk I had found, like, one mention. I had found, like, various mentions, right, like, of the Nation of Islam, like, spreading to the Caribbean. I think it was Bermuda, Jamaica. And then there was like, a conversation about Trinidad, like, not their spread to Trinidad, but just like, Islam and Trinidad. And I was like, okay, like, let me see, you know, what's happening, right? And then I found this folder that was called Black Power in the Caribbean. And I was like, okay, I was like, let's look and see what this is. And of course, you know, because these people conflate, like, everything. There's all this stuff about the Nation of Islam. The place that there's the most stuff is Bermuda, right? Like, they just explain, like. And I. And I think it has to do with. I think that the robustness of the archive has to do with at the time that I'm really looking, like, really looking at, like, the, like, the rise of Islam there. We're really dealing with a situation where most of the other Caribbean islands, like, have. Are on their way to independence or are independent, right? And Bermuda is still a possession of the United Kingdom, right? So I think that that changes the dynamic, right? Because they're, like, actually fighting against colonialism, right? Like, they're actually, like. They're really doing that work. And so, yeah, I mean, like, I just. I don't know. Then I. So I went there. I found all this stuff. There were several folders on Bermuda, so detailed, like, all of these people. And then I. And then I went there, you know, And I mean, I was able to make relationships, have, you know, like, have all these connections, like, in the community. I don't think I would have been able to. I will say, like, I. I do not think I would have been able to do any of this had I not on there and had I not developed a relationship with that community. Because some of the. The materials. I mean, well, just some of the materials that I use are not publicly available anyway, right? And then I think that just doing the interviews, right, that I did, and I'm not enough Like, I'm not an ethnographer, you know, like, in historians, we do hit, like, oral history is different than that. I'm, like, I'm not living with these community. I'm like, I might be living with these communities for, like, a short period of time. I'm not there for, like, months, years. You know, also, it would be impossible to live in Bermuda for, like, more than a month because it is so expensive there. It's like, I always tell people about how I paid $10 for a head of broccoli there. And, like, and this was, like, in 2015. I can't even imagine how much it cost now.
- [48:12]
A
Wow.
- [48:14]
D
But, yeah, I mean, like, I. I think that I was able to get the stories that I got because of the people that I talked to and even, like, where what they said in particular didn't make that much of an impact. It directed me to other things, right. Like in the archive, in the newspaper. I mean, the people there are just. Just, they're so nice, you know, like, they're so kind. And, like, I really, like, don't think that I would have been able to do it without them. But. But I also think that Bermuda is an interesting place because of its geographic location, because it's just right smack in the middle of the Atlantic. And I think it gives it. And it's like a transit point, right? Like an outpost kind of. And I think that that gives it like a diasporic character. Right? Like, people are constantly passing through. And I think that that makes. Right. Like, I think that that adds to the story as well.
- [49:13]
C
And in both of the chapters in chapter four and chapter five, you really kind of are maybe tracing the translation of how, you know, resistance or anti imperialism or decolonization is emerging. And one is, like, with labor organizing and unions, with schools, which really highlighted kind of gender and women's kind of activism and trying to get schooling that is, like, attuned to, you know, Muslim kids, like, their needs and what that looks like. So how. So how did that translate, like, particularly in terms of kind of mobilizing or. I don't know if I activist orient organizing around kind of getting religiously pertinent schooling for young Muslim children, let's say, in Bermuda. And what was the role of Nation of Islam folks in that?
- [50:00]
D
Right. Like, well, I think that some of it has to do. I mean, like, it's interesting. It's like, a lot of it has to do with, you know, one of the things that I noticed when I was, like, talking to a lot of the women in this community is like, they really undervalued, like, their own contributions, right, to this. This entire project. And none of them at first really defined it as political until we started talking. And then they were like, oh, yeah, I guess I did have a big role, and I guess it was political, right? Like, so I actually was really happy that, like, I could, through our conversation, right? They could come to that conclusion. I mean, like, I think that, you know, I mean, yes, like, women have, like, a huge role, but I think that actually the thing that surprised. I'm not about to be like, but what about men? But the thing that actually really surprised me about the Bermudian situation is that, like, I expected, because you don't see the women, right, like, fighting for this school in the newspapers. Like, there's one brief mention, no names, right? And so I'm like, okay. I was like, what I was expecting was that really the women would be doing all of the work, and then the men are just going to be the ones that are, like, publicly meeting and the men are really going to do anything. I was actually really fascinated to find out that the men were actually, like, very much involved, right, like, in this. In this struggle. They were on the council. They were interacting, like, with the teachers, right? Like, that was really shocking to me because I just expected, like, oh, the women are going to be doing, like, all affective labor and the men are just going to be, like, the ones that are in public. That was, like, a huge surprise to me. And I think that it was, like, important that that happened because it made me. It made me learn to check my own biases, right? Like, and it made me be like, oh, okay, like, I need to actually, like, look at the materials and I'll just, like, assume, like, what's. What's actually going to happen, right? Because I could be surprised. The education thing, I think, is, like, really interesting, right? Because I don't think that they quite frame it. They don't publicly frame it as this fight against empire, right? Like an imperialism. But to me, it, like, very clearly is when they started to talk about the reasons why they needed the school, right? Like, and. And in the choices of, like, the curriculum and the textbooks that they chose, like, thought to me was because they purposely, even though, right? Like, Romanian children need to go through, like, the British, like, kind of educational approvals, right? The Cambridge system or whatever they call it, they choose to use American textbooks, right? Like, so they choose to reject the textbooks, like, of their colonizer, right? And go with American ones, which are probably Problematic in other ways. Right. Like, but they make a very conscious decision. Right. Like, to do this. They make a very conscious decision to frame the need to. Just as they do with freedom. Right. Like, with this idea that, like, Islam demands freedom and therefore Bermena should not be colonized. They make these types of arguments with regard to their children's education, too, that, like, they need to have control over what their kids learn and that their kids also not only need to learn to be good Muslims, but also. Right. They need to learn to be black people in the Atlantic world. Right. Like, they need that they need to, like, figure out how to live in relation to other black people. Right. Like in the United States and the rest of the Caribbean. Right. In the uk. So I just thought that that was. I mean, I thought that that was really interesting. And I got, like, a really great cache of documents that were, like, private, that nobody, however, they're not published. Right. Like, they're just kind of sitting in the Tupperware in someone's basement. Oh, God. But, you know.
- [54:22]
C
At least it's in a Tupperware. I'd protect.
- [54:24]
D
Yeah, yeah. The Tupperware is critical.
- [54:29]
C
I love it. The final chapter, the final substantive chapter is called who you're gonna call. And. And one of the things that I again, did not know about this, but you talk about, and now you've shifted historically to, like, the era of Louis Farquan and him leading kind of the Nation of Islam. And you're talking about specifically the dope busters program, which is response is coming from within the Nation of Islam to the crack crisis, which you frame as a crack crisis. And there's some interesting things that are happening here in terms of, you know, Farrakhan critiquing, you know, what the states are doing, the use of drugs, what's happening to black communities. So I'm curious about why you wanted to end the book off on this particular kind of case study and what this work is doing in kind of your larger project.
- [55:24]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think that I put it there chronologically because it made sense chronologically because that chapter goes into the 90s. I also think that I put it there because it's the chapter that I think resonates the most with, like, our current situation. Some of the comments that I. I got about, like, the. Whether or not, like, that chapter actually belongs in part two, not because it's not about Bermuda, but because people didn't really see, like, the grassroots, like, intellectualism. So I tried to play that a little, like, up a little Bit like, and I just don't think, I mean like, I think that like I do demonstrate that like in the, like the letters to the editor, right? Like how people, like how regular people that you're not going to talk to, like, are actually like thinking about and intellectualizing these things. But you know, that chapter, I, I mean I really think that like Irene, to me it's like actually like every day I'm like, I need to write an op ed because it's really like, are we back in like the 1980s? Are we back in the early 90s? It's like we have military, right, like in the city. We have, right, like us like a ramp up of us like aggressive US Imperialism, right? And this time we're being open about it. You know what I mean? Like, that's I guess the only change, right? And then, and I, I mean, so I think that there's there is this still this connection, there always has been this connection between like subjugation of people of color in the inner city and like the subjugation of people of color abroad, right. Getting attempted control of these things. And so I, I think that, I mean that chapter to me is like a, I don't know, they're coming to Jesus chapter. Like, you know, just like, how did we get to like this one, like our particular situation? And so I, like, I chose to, I mean I largely chose to end on it for logistical, like timeline reasons. But I also think that it kind of brings together like a lot of the themes at the, the book, right? Like about overlap about thinking about, right? Like political, like what are like the larger global political realities, right? How do these things connect with what we're doing? And also, right, like, what can we actually do about it instead of just thinking about it, right? Like, and so the Jokebusters thing, it's problematic. It's super problematic, you know what I mean? Like, but what's not problematic, right? But to me, like, I was like, oh, this is very interesting that people are just taking this into their own hands. Like they're just like, you know what? Like the police are not for us. They're making the situation worse. But our community is dying. We need to do something about this, right? Like, and also we, you know, we need to do something about it and this is what we can. This is what we could do, right? Like, this is how we have to defend our communities. I mean, I think so, yeah. I mean that was some of my reasoning behind it. Yeah.
- [58:48]
C
I mean, I think for me, ultimately the epilogue really takes this Point home as you bring all these things together. Because I think there's different threads you've taken us in the book and I think in the moment, in time of reading it, and the connection or like just signaling to what's happening in Gaza, to what's happened in Ferguson, to like these kind of international moments, as you're saying, of like oppression and violence against so many different communities and naming. I think you were standing with somebody in Bermuda and you were trying to imagine, like, what. What do these identities of blackness and Muslimness or Islam ness. How are they related and how are they not related and evoking this idea. What is, you know, the work of understanding, religio racial identities. Right. And so you've walked us through the book and kind of naming that for us, the ways in which Islam has been politicized in particular ways for black commun. The ways in which sometimes it has translated into other communities as well. Right. And how that is still reality and what the consequence of that is for the future. Like, what does that mean, looking forward? I don't know if you wanted to say anything about the epilogue, specifically in this moment in time.
- [60:02]
D
Yeah, I mean, to me, I'm like, yeah, I mean, that's like that op ed that I'm just like, I need to think about, you know, like, for me as a historian, it's like when I first went to grad school, the idea of writing, like, even like the idea of like writing something about something that happened in the 90s was like, that's presentism, right? Or like, the epilogue that I wrote would be like, that's. That's presentism. Like, we're historians. Like, we shouldn't be opining on things that are happening like, like in the moment. But for me, it's like, that's why history matters, right? Like, it's like, why does history. I mean, like, sure, I guess, yes. There is the whole argument that, like, you should study things and you should be interested in things simply because they're interesting and you like that. And I think that there is right, like, value in that. Right. And I do that too. But I also, like, feel like, especially when you are a person of color, right? Like, and when your body takes, like, when the body that you live in, like, is constantly, like, being assaulted with imperialism and with racism, with racial violence. Right. Like, and all of these things you can't help but think about, like, how the past, like, actually informs the present, not only because you're like, okay, well, here are all of these echoes of slavery, of Imperialism of all of these things, right, that are still happening today. But also, like, okay, like, what are the lessons that you can take, right? Like, what are the techniques that people have used to fight this, right? Like, how did they work? How did they not work? What are the solidarities, right, that people. That, to me is like, I am really heartened, right? Like, by the situation that I talk about, right? Like in 2014 in Gaza, like, where activists are like, like, let's communicate with each other, right? This is how you survive this moment, right? And I think those connections are just, like, so incredibly important. You know, I also think that I was motivated, you know, truthfully, like, I, you know, kind of the conclusion, I think, is the last thing that a lot of people write. I'm very bad at conclusions. Like, I'm not. I'm more of an introduction person. I'm not a conclusion per. Like, I feel like you're either an intro person or a conclusion person, right? Like, I'm not a good conclusion person. My view is always, like, I just wrote a whole book on it, and he read it, like, why don't you need to reiterate what I just said, right? Like, but at the time that I was writing it, the protests. The campus protests were happening, and a bunch of my students and my colleagues in the department, professors, were arrested. And I was like, I need to. Like, I feel like I need to say something about it. And what I said was, like, it wasn't even that, like, political or, like, polemical or anything, right? But I wanted the book to have a recognition that. That these histories are interconnected. And I saw the recognition of that when I went into those encampments. And I realized that so many of my students of color were down there, right? Like, it was so many black students, so many Latino students, like, so many Muslim students, right? And also a lot of my old students, like, when I was down there, they would be like, professor Morgan, do you remember me? Do you remember me? Do you remember me? And I was like, oh, my God. I was like, I don't talk about, you know, I talk about Palestine. Sometimes my classes, in terms of, like, just talking about, like, imperialism in general, that I usually give the students the facts and let them come to their own conclusions about the situation. And in that moment, I was like, I guess I did something right with these students because it's like, so many of them are down here, and so many of them are telling me, like, that learning about race, learning about empire prompted them to, like, come down here and make These connections with each other. Right? Like, and to see their struggles and the struggles of Palestinians, right, in Gaza. And I was like, this is really powerful. And I want to. To think about that, right? To think about how this. These particular relationships are a continuation. Right? Like, the long history of relationships. And, like, we don't know where it's going in the future. Right? It's like, I thought, I'm comfortable with presenceism. I'm not comfortable with you, with fortune. Did I like my excitement? Like, I. But, yeah, I mean, like, I think that I don't know where it's going in the future. I don't. I'm not arguing that it's gonna stay there, that it's gonna be, like. It's gonna be like, Palestinian solidarity, like, forever. But I think that's where it is for right now. And I actually think it's a really beautiful thing that people are, like, seeing their struggles still. Seeing our struggles is connected with each other because we live in this world that's, like, so fragmented, right? Like, it's like, the intention is to fragment people of color, people that are being oppressed, like, and to pull them away from each other and to make it so that they don't see themselves, right. As united in the same struggle. And that just fuels. Right. Like, it just fuels empire. It just fuels racial violence. Right. Like, I've always been like, okay, like, well, you know, if we all come together, right. Like, if you think the way that my subjects think, which is, like, we're not a minority, we're a global majority. Right. Like, what are the possibilities from that?
- [65:46]
C
So, yeah, that's powerful. I really appreciated, like, you bringing us back to that in your epilogue, which I thought was a good conclusion, but I want.
- [65:56]
D
Well, thank you. But thank you. I worked really hard on it, because I'm not. Like I said, I am not. It was great.
- [66:02]
C
I loved it. Well, first of all and most of all, congratulations on just this fantastic, beautiful book. It'll be sitting with me, and I'll be processing it. And so I'm grateful for this opportunity to talk with you about it. I know this book has just come out, and I hope you're celebrating it and rejoicing at the work that has been done. But are there maybe new projects on the horizon or new directions? You're going.
- [66:25]
D
Yeah. So the next book is going to be about space and the black imagination. So outer space in the black imagination. And it actually comes out of this. When I was finishing this book up, yeah, I go to this town in Mexico, like, Basically every year. It's called Tepotzilan. It's this town that's actually known for alien sight, like UFO sightings. And when I was finishing this book, I found this article about Louis Farrakhan, alleging that he went to tapaton in the 80s, and he alleges that he was taken up into a UFO at the top of this, like. Like Aztec site, basically. And it's so bizarre and crazy. And I was like, okay. I was like, I go to the town every year. I was like, and okay, it's Farrakhan. So I started to think about that. I wrote a paper about that for a conference, and then I was like, I kind of want to just think about, like, space in general. So this year I have a fellowship at the Huntington to look at the Octavia Butler papers. So it's going to be about. I think it's going to be like, religion, literature, music, TV and film. And then it's the way that I have it envisioned right now. It's like a different cultural production, right, like, of like how black people are thinking about space, like, over time. So.
- [67:52]
C
Oh, my gosh. I'm, like, so excited. Okay, well, you'll have to come back on the show when that's out and we have to talk about it.
- [67:58]
D
I would love to.
- [68:00]
C
So cool. Well, I hope you have just such a good time working through that, and I'll have to pay attention to where you're at with it in the future. Thank you so much for joining me and for chatting about your book, Atlantic Crescent. And. Yeah, congratulations.
- [68:12]
D
Thank you so much for having me and thank you for your time and everything. It was this really fun conversation. Conversation.
- [68:18]
C
Oh, I'm glad. And also to your beautiful puppy that's sitting.
- [68:21]
D
Oh, yeah. Oh, God, he did so well.
- [68:25]
C
I appreciate it.
- [68:26]
D
All right, thank you so much. Thank you very much.
- [68:28]
B
And that was my conversation with Elena Morgan about her new book, Atlantic Building a Black and Muslim Liberation in the African Diaspora. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and I hope you'll join us again next time. Until then, take good care.
- [68:45]
C
Foreign.
- [68:57]
E
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