Podcast Summary: New Books Network – Amelia Frank-Vitale, "Leave If You Can: Migration and Violence in Bordered Worlds"

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Rachel Newman speaks with anthropologist Amelia Frank-Vitale about her new book, Leave If You Can: Migration and Violence in Bordered Worlds (University of California Press, 2026). The conversation delves into Frank-Vitale's ethnographic research in Honduras and Mexico, examining the interplay of migration, violence, gangs, internal “borders,” and the broader geopolitical forces shaping mobility in Central America. Frank-Vitale brings both scholarly insight and compassion as she discusses the lived experiences of migrants, the structural forces driving displacement, and the failure of border enforcement to truly address the causes or consequences of migration.

Frank-Vitale’s Path to Research (01:46–06:06)

• Personal Origins: Amelia describes growing up in Reading, Pennsylvania—a city with its own stigma around violence—and the impact this has had on her worldview. Early activist experiences (immigrant rights, anti-war, labor) shaped her commitment to immigration issues.
• Catalysts: A pivotal experience during college in Arizona, witnessing the human cost of U.S. border policy:
  "I was outraged. I was heartbroken. ...To come face to face with the reality of people dying in our desert every year... so maddening that this is the result of policies we have put into place." (03:13, Amelia)
• Professional Journey: After college, spent years as an organizer, then pursued academic research, with fieldwork beginning in Oaxaca, Mexico in 2010, later moving to Honduras.
• Perspective: Her hometown’s "outsider" stigma about violence sensitized her to similar narratives about Honduran communities and drove her to question what such stigmas obscure.

Audiences & Hoped-For Impact (06:06–09:10)

• Intended Readers: Academic anthropologists, the broader public, and unexpectedly, practitioners like schoolteachers and asylum attorneys.
• Expanding Understanding:
  "We are in a moment where there is so much criminalizing language about migration itself... I hope it is useful... to get a deeper, clearer sense of all the things that combine that coalesce to produce migration." (06:44, Amelia)
• Real-World Relevance: The book has already drawn interest from teachers working with Honduran youth seeking to understand their students’ backgrounds.

Urban Neighborhoods as “Bordered Worlds” (09:10–14:38)

• Neighborhood Borders: Honduran urban neighborhoods are fractured by gang-controlled invisible borders—no walls, but real and deadly.
• Anecdote:
  "We just crossed the border." (09:52, Amelia recounts a local pastor’s remark crossing from one neighborhood to another)
• Borders of Death:
  "Another person... said to me... these are borders of death. These borders are more deadly and more real than any concrete wall that could ever be built." (11:23, Amelia)
• Logic of Exclusion: The suspicion and policing of boundaries at the neighborhood level mirrors the broader state logic of border surveillance and exclusion.
• Gangs as Local Actors: Gangs are not external invaders but composed of residents—most often young men—reacting to their own fears and generational cycles of violence.

Language, Storytelling, and Circulation (14:38–20:30)

• Linguistic Choice: The book features Honduran Spanish and direct quotes to retain authenticity and honor bilingual readers.
• Chapter Title Explained: "Mañana me mandan, mañana me vengo"
  Translation: "They send me back tomorrow, tomorrow I come right back." Reflects migrants' resilience and commitment to movement despite repeated deportations.
• Concept of Circulation:
  "It produces a kind of life lived in circulation... ongoing and often unwanted movement... deportation did not end people's migration journey." (17:11, Amelia)
• Structural Violence and Policy: Even before recent highly visible enforcement tactics (e.g., Minneapolis), the violence of U.S. immigration policy was exerting devastating effects, often hidden from view.

NGOs, Social Services, and the Limits of Aid (20:30–24:07)

• State Absence: Honduran citizens receive minimal state support; NGOs fill gaps but their impact is limited.
• NGO Efforts: Offer short-term support (job training, start-up capital), which can help individuals but do not change underlying systemic precarity.
• Structural Constraints:
  "The NGO work, although meaningful... doesn't change the underlying factor... migration was often like the last best option, but once people got to that last best option, it was the thing that they went back to again and again." (22:54, Amelia)

Migrant Caravans: Mobility, Tactics, and Symbolism (24:07–29:22)

• Caravans as Strategy: Not a separate phenomenon, but an emergent part of the same cycle of migration and constraint.
  "Caravans are a particular kind of mobility tactic... as a way to keep moving when people get stuck." (25:02, Amelia)
• Origins: Early experience in 2011 caravans, leading up to the widely publicized 2018 movement.
• Circulation of Ideas: Tactics such as caravans circulate among migrants, representing collective attempts to survive in a landscape shaped by violence, criminal actors, and hardening borders.
• Visibility: Caravans dramatize the everyday, less visible realities presented throughout the book.

Shifting U.S. Policy and Ongoing Change (29:22–36:24)

• Policy Evolution: Since her main fieldwork, U.S. immigration rhetoric has shifted from general anti-immigrant sentiment toward a focus on asylum, resulting in the near-closure of legal channels.
• Government Tactics:
  "They have really focused on immigration courts as one of their primary areas of attack... fired over 100 immigration judges... made legal maneuvers to dismiss cases... a real attack on the people doing things through the legal channels." (31:05, Amelia)
• Continuity Amidst Change: Despite political turnover, pandemic disruptions, and reversed migration flows, the structural conditions driving migration persist.
• Ongoing Relevance:
  "In many ways, the world looks different... and yet, in many ways, the world is the same. The sense of having to leave behind a world that people know because that world is just not giving them the opportunity for a fulsome future. That is still something that people are contending with." (35:20, Amelia)

Memorable Quotes & Key Moments

• Migration as Endurance:
  "Deportation did not end people's migration journey. It did not stop people from the destinations that they hope to one day reach." (16:11, Amelia)
• Invisible but Deadly Borders:
  "These borders are more deadly and more real than any concrete wall that could ever be built." (11:23, quoting a local resident)
• On Caravans:
  "Caravans emerge as a way to get through, a way to get forward, as a way to keep moving when people get stuck." (25:32, Amelia)
• On State Policy:
  "We never lived up to our stated ideals... but rhetorically, the focus on asylum seekers is newer." (30:33, Amelia)

Notable Timestamps for Key Sections

• Amelia’s Story: 01:46–06:06
• Intended Audiences: 06:06–09:10
• Neighborhood Borders: 09:10–14:38
• Language and Circulation: 14:38–20:30
• NGO Effectiveness: 20:30–24:07
• Migrant Caravans: 24:07–29:22
• Recent Policy Developments: 29:22–36:24

Conclusion

Amelia Frank-Vitale’s Leave If You Can is both a rigorous ethnography and an urgent call to reconsider how we, as a society, talk about and respond to migration. Through granular detail, evocative storytelling, and deep analysis, she exposes the ways borders—both visible and invisible—shape and often imperil the lives of those on the move, while never truly deterring the search for safety and opportunity. The conversation underscores the importance of listening to migrant voices, remaining attentive to structural conditions, and recognizing the limits of policy solutions that do not address root causes.

Listen for:

• First-hand descriptions of San Pedro Sula’s “borders of death.” (11:23)
• Why translation and language authenticity are central to Frank-Vitale’s methodology. (15:14)
• The significance and adaptation of migrant caravans as a form of resistance and necessity. (25:02)
• Reflections on ongoing policy shifts and their real-world impacts on daily life for migrants. (30:01)