← New Books Network
New Books Network
Amy Brann, "Make Your Brain Work: Perform at a Higher Level" (Kogan Page, 2025)
00:53:24
Loading summary
Transcript77 lines
- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more@accenture.com Spotify Pros Trust the Home
- [00:31]
B
Depot for heavy duty storage solutions for any job site or garage Right now get up to 15% off select storage and organization impact and water resistant totes and shelving built to hold up to £2,500. Storage systems have space for all your tools and protect them in the garage, on the job site and everywhere in between. Save time and maximize efficiency with adjustable shelving customized to your business needs. Shop and save on pro grade storage at the Home Depot. How Pros Get More Done
- [01:02]
A
this episode
- [01:02]
B
is brought to you by Google Chrome.
- [01:04]
A
You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, setup required Compatibility and availability Various 18 welcome to the New Books Network. Welcome curious minds. I'm Angela Marie Hutchinson, the host of today's episode. This is going to be a conversation grounded in neuroscience to help your brain perform at its highest potential. Today I'm excited. I'm joined by neuroscience expert Amy Brand. She's the author of the book make youe Brain Work, subtitled Perform at a Higher Level. Amy, welcome to the show.
- [01:59]
B
Thank you so much Angela. I can't wait to talk to you.
- [02:03]
A
I am excited for this conversation for so many reasons. But before we take a deep dive into your book, can you share with our listeners an overview of your book and really what inspired you to write it?
- [02:19]
B
I so I first wrote it years and years ago, maybe 14 years ago, because I was going to all of these leaders in big companies and trying to persuade them to learn more about how their people's brains worked so that they could lead and design organizations in a way that helped people to contribute what they were really capable of in the organization. But they were coming up against these questions and I wanted to give them stacks of these amazing academic papers that shared really juicy insights. But there was no way that these really busy leaders were going to read all of these articles that have been published. So I wrote this book as a condensed way of hoping to draw out some of the incredible research that was out there and shine a light on some of the great researchers doing work that individually didn't help necessarily, necessarily so much the leaders. But when you bring it together and then you get this, this richer picture of how humans work, my hope was that then we would be designing organizations in a way that were more honoring to how humans worked. So that's where it came from and why I guess I wrote it. I had no intentions to write books. I'm not that good at English really, but I was quite excited by and passionate around the science. And what I hoped the book tried to do was take common situations that people will have experienced themselves and give them a little peek behind the scenes of what might be going on in their brains when these kind of things happened. Because time and time again we can think humans are irrational and illogical and unpredictable. And while it very much can seem like that, actually when you break it down and understand a bit more of what might be going on for individuals, it's. They become quite predictable. And so that was the intention with lots of the themes that tend to arise in organizations that leaders were telling us were important to them, to give them some science and to give them some tips on essentially how to make their brains and the people that they were leading brains work better.
- [04:30]
A
Well, you know, the tips in the book too are also, you know, really helpful. I found, you know, I appreciated how you, as we were talking earlier, how you organize the content, you know, by essentially following three people throughout the book almost, you know, like ongoing case studies. And then from a science based, you know, pov, you know, you're essentially explaining the neuroscience and your research findings very clearly, which makes the book a very practical read for people like me and to be able to apply it to their daily lives right now, which is what I really loved.
- [05:05]
B
That's what we want, isn't it? Changes right now, things that we can actually do, things that we can experiment with and see what might work for us.
- [05:12]
A
Exactly. So it seems like then from the development of the actual book, you were very intentional. It wasn't something that evolved as you were writing the book in terms of making it a practical and very approachable read.
- [05:27]
B
Yeah, absolutely intentional from the outset. I lived in a small flat when I wrote the first edition and I had post it notes everywhere because I first gathered together all of the science that I thought thought would benefit people and then grouped it together into themes and linked it to the common problems, challenges that people in organizations had, and then came up with the sort of characters that might experience those sort of scenarios, and then grouped it together and then tried to work out what was a logical flow. So it was very analytical. So whenever anyone tells me about writing creative pieces or stories or film scripts and all of that and, and likens me to them, I have to absolutely course correct immediately and say, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not so good at that side of things. This was a very analytical process, and I have full respect for people that, that do other types of writing.
- [06:24]
A
Well, I have lots of sticky notes on your book. So. So let, let's. Let's dive in. I thought a good place to start for listeners was really to kind of unpack the prefrontal cortex a little bit. I mean, you know, it's something that I think most leaders and most people are familiar with. For me, in particular, when I think about the prefrontal cortex, I'm a mom of, you know, three kids, and so I have, you know, two teenagers. And, you know, as moms, we're often having the conversations on how the prefrontal is not fully developed, you know, and when I think of the prefrontal cortex, I often think of decision making, the ability to, like, make decisions, whether I'm making them good or bad. But what I thought was interesting in your book, you know, you, you, you start with explaining, you know, when our prefrontal cortex is not working optimally, we find ourselves feeling lazy, feeling lethargic, uninspired, easily distracted, being poor at completing things, being disorganized, being forgetful. And you start there. And I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, let's unpack that a little bit. Can you share with readers the function of the prefrontal cortex and any other insights you think are helpful for this conversation?
- [07:42]
B
Yeah, so the prefrontal cortex is really critical, and often in the brain, the regions that we talk about have got a whole list of things that they are involved in. And we can often sort of simplify it to, oh, it just does this like the amygdala typically is. Oh, that's just about the fear response. And it's always about so much more. Because when you think of how complex the brain has to be in order to enable us to do all of these amazing things that we do in our lifetime, it, yeah, it couldn't be that. It just is responsible for one aspect, I think, the, the part of the connectivity increasing through our teenage years, our 20s. And then more research keeps emerging about different developmental zones, periods within our life, later on after the mid-20s. But it really is involved in most things that humans need to do from birth, well throughout their lives, but especially in that sort of schooling, learning phase. And then in most jobs, not all jobs, is it the, the default, the most active, the most dominant. All of these are a little bit imperfect ways of describing, but motion of the brain, but it's, it's highly influential and you know, for our emotional regulation, something that's. That can be problematic for different people. Prefrontal cortex is really important, but the thing that always I want people to understand to a degree is that it's a bit like a muscle in that it doesn't benefit from being permanently stretched. So when we're utilizing our prefrontal cortex, it does need a break. And there are so many different types of work or ways that we can use our brain. Defaulting to just using it in the really intensive thinking, proactive kind of way isn't ideal for our brain. It will not work as well by the ends of the day as some of us experience. I know for me, if I've made loads of decisions in a day and been very cognitively on, as it were, by the end of the day, I'm feeling like I don't want to make any more decisions and I might really struggle to even think about what I want for dinner or try and organize an outfit for the next day. And understanding that that's how our prefrontal cortex needs to work enables us to then justify and organize our lives and our working practices in a way that's more helpful. So with breaks, but with exposure to nature, with opportunities to build in the default mode activation. So we're doing a very different type of activity, but it's still contributing to the work that we're trying to do or the lives that we're trying to live. So, yes, prefrontal cortex, very important in almost everything, but a bit of a Goldilocks, a bit delicate, that needs the breaks and the care.
- [10:46]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's really helpful, I think, to know that it is a muscle, right. And it's something that we can change. It's not just permanent. And I think that, that, that at least for me, is really helpful to think about. I. I found myself laughing at, you know, at parts of the book, not because if any of it was necessarily humorous per se, but it was more. So one of my nicknames, I'm embarrassed to even say, but I will share, is that my. My husband gave me as choice monster. Because I will take forever to make a decision. I mean, it could be the smallest decision, and it just will, like, stress me out. You know, where to eat, what to drink, something so small. But then if it's like business work, you know, type situations, I'm not the same way. It's more so minor decisions tend to, you know, make me feel more overwhelmed. And so I wondered, you know, in terms of feeling, you know, overwhelmed and trying to kind of go from, particularly in the workspace, from being like, overwhelmed to empowered, you know, what are some of the things that you've discovered about how we can do that and why, you know, creating a plan essentially right from a neuroscience perspective can be helpful for us to do that?
- [12:06]
B
I think we live in a world now where the load is very high. So the number of chunks of information we are processing every single day is absolutely massive and is so different to what we were processing a hundred years ago. And the brain hasn't dramatically changed from what it was like 100 years ago. Therefore, what we're asking the brain to do is predictably going to create a state of overwhelm in many people. So if I were to have 24 jams laid out and six jams laid out, you would gravitate towards my 24 jams and you would peruse them, but you wouldn't make a decision at that jam stall. You would likely only buy jam if you'd visited my six jam stall. And I think in life, we want to try and mimic the sixth jam stall situation. In organizations, there is huge amounts of data available to most people making decisions these days. And I've given numerous talks recently to companies that are requiring their leaders to make very impactful decisions. And yet they are overloaded and overwhelmed and don't know how to make these decisions because they still don't have certainty and there's still a lot of information they don't have, even with this mass load of data that they do have. So much like the jam store and like in our personal lives, scaling it back to what is the most important thing here and talking to parents. I think the similarities carry across too, in terms of. In parenting, there can be a whole range of different things that we're trying to do with, for our children, nurture, embed, support, et cetera, and it can sometimes just be too much. So scaling it right back and thinking, what's the most important thing? What's the most important thing I need to know in order to make this decision? What's actually going to influence the decision. What's the most important thing right now to reduce the overwhelm. The overload. About five years ago, I was in a phase where every time anyone asked me how I was, you know, I would say, oh, busy. And it was just this repeated phrase that would immediately flow from me. And I suddenly had this epiphany that I don't want to always be a busy person. I don't know that that's how I want to live my life. I want it to be full and fruitful and all of those other things, but not necessarily just busy. And so I reframed this very long to do list, which I didn't want to get rid of anything from, but instead I considered each time someone asked me, well, I'm doing the most important thing. So although, yes, the to do list is very long, we can't get to all of it at any one point. And if we're looking at all of it, that's where overwhelm can creep in. But if we strip it back, simplify so that we are scaffolding for our brain to digest and process and focus on what's most important, that's how our attention will work best when we need to actually decide and feel in control of things, rather than the scattered and vast spread of diffusion of attention that could then be less helpful to us as individuals.
- [15:27]
A
Right. And it can be very, you know, stunting. It can very much stun our growth, you know, and that can lead to, like, self destruction in some, in some cases, you know, in extreme cases, you know, you, you also provided some tips in each section, you know, really of your book. You do that toward the, towards the end of the sections and you talk about different ways on how we can prevent ourselves, you know, from being overwhelmed. And there were several there. You'll have to get the book to unlock, you know, to read them all. But, but I found, you know, the dopamine boost was really interesting, you know, in terms of, you know, tackling a quick win. Can you talk through why that's important?
- [16:15]
B
Absolutely. And you could do different things to give yourself a dopamine hit. But one of the reasons that I love having a to do list and may even add something to the to do list in order to just tick it off. If that's what I need to get going is the brain, when, when our brain has got dopamine flowing through it in peaks, then it can help us to pay more attention, to be more focused, to feel that sense of achievement or that that boost, it can manifest in different ways in different people, how we experience it, but it's going to put us into a more helpful brain state in order to then do whatever comes next. And we can be derailed in a day in life in so many different ways. But bringing our prefrontal cortex back online, I guess that would be the marketing spiel for it, but enabling it to regulate ourselves, regulate our state. If we're heading in a overwhelm type situation, feeling back like, we've got agency, we've got control, we're autonomous and ready to go, can be really useful. Other ways that you could do it, depending on preferences, could include things like doing a burst of exercise, getting your blood flowing again, doing anything that gives you a sense of achievement, whether it's, you know, to do list or running around the block, or doing, you know, a couple of kettlebell swings, feeling like we're back in the zone and then, then could keep going.
- [17:47]
A
Yes. I mean, one of the things I found really helpful for, for myself is waking up, you know, really early to just do like a 45 minute routine of just like quietness and like stretching. And it has just been when I, I started doing a couple years ago and it's just been like game changing in terms of how I move throughout the day. And I just find it so fascinating, you know, I never understood the why behind it and your book really helped me to understand why. Why do I feel so incredibly different after something that is, you know, relatively simple? I'm just literally stretching kind of sitting there. You have one. Another one of the tips is which I loved, schedule white space for innovation. Because I, I work in the creative space a lot and I thought that was really helpful too about, you know, taking time off to taking a few minutes to, you know, kind of debrief or just do like free thinking. I thought that was really insightful.
- [18:45]
B
It's something that people haven't normalized, giving themselves permission to do yet. So around the world, whenever I ask, where do you get your most creative ideas? Where do you get that flash of insight that helps you solve a problem you've been grasping, like grappling with? And unanimously around the world, the most common answer is in the shower.
- [19:06]
A
Oh my gosh, that's so funny and so true. I can relate to that.
- [19:10]
B
And that typically, because it's the white space, it's where we are not in task positive mode. We are enabling our default mood network to learn and to bring up into our conscious awareness that genius that's in there. But if we're so busy all the time. Do, do, do, do, do. Toss positive, toss positive, toss positive. We don't give our brain the opportunity to make those connections and to then bring it into conscious awareness. So I think showering should be, you know, billable hours because it's where I know really work well.
- [19:43]
A
I remember at one point I would have a. I. At one point I remember I was like, you know, I need a notebook or something because I will come up with something like, oh, my gosh, that's so good. No, I can record myself. And then it's like, it didn't work. It was like, if I knew I was like having to take notes after or if I was going to like record my thought, it didn't work the same when I was like trying to, like, this is the moment I'm. I need some innovation I'm going to go into. You know, it's funny, just the natural shower, normal time. When I take it, it's like just such a burst of ideas that come. Another interesting tip that you gave, which I also related to was, you know, I thought this is very practical. You say, picture your brain as a nightclub where only the essential tasks make it past the door. That, that was really funny back in college. I used to be a bartender way back in the day. And I thought that was like, really, like a very visual way to think about how tasks, you know, get in.
- [20:38]
B
I think it's tasks and even thoughts. Your morning routine that you've evolved is setting you up in a particular way and you will have a particular identity as a result of that. And it's a healthy, helpful identity that you've developed. And if anything were to come to that door that is not welcomed, that would challenge that, that strong, healthy identity that you've built with your habits, your, you know, your daily things that you do. You want to turn it away because you don't want it taking up a valuable table in your bar or in your brain. You want the things in there that are going to help you and, yeah, nourish you and equip you and all of those good things. But so frequently through what we expose ourselves to, unhelpful stuff can get lodged in our brain, our body, and we can then go on repeat of narratives that is less optimal. And organizations are seeing an epidemic of this, of differences that are suppressing performance, but also suppressing wellbeing and fulfillment and engagement. So everything's so linked, isn't it?
- [21:53]
A
It is. And then even chronic stress, it's one of those Things that easily creeps in, you know, whether it's at work. I think that's becoming, you know, because we're our attention spans, we're juggling so much. You know, as you mentioned, we, our brains are, you know, really having to perform in all of the distractions that we have in, in the world. And I think you talk a little bit about or in several sections actually about stress. But can you share with us? You know, there was a study that talked about, you know, what you have titled here, Mind over Mucus and you know, so funny and you know, but you talk about the mindset and our immune systems and how connected they are, you know. Can you share some of your research that listeners can benefit from in terms of how our mindset, you know, really does influence the way our bodies respond to illness, physically or mentally?
- [22:53]
B
Absolutely. And I'll caveat this with the awareness, the reality that even with the best self talk, the most reframes and doing our utmost, people still can absolutely get physically unwell and mentally unwell and that can be beyond our control. Yeah. That said, there are also things that all of us can do that may help and in numerous different research studies have shown to affect. So I tend to think of it as we'll do everything we can. A bit like with what we eat, what we put into our bodies and how we exercise and things, we'll do everything we can. We know it may not guarantee any results, but it's. We would rather be doing it than not wherever possible. So the study that you're referring to, I think is the cognitive reappraisal with the common cold. So they exposed people to the rhinovirus and had given them cognitive reappraisal techniques for some of them and not for the others. And those that were cognitive reappraising the situation, they actually produced fewer pro inflammatory cytokines. So one of our immune complexes that gets released into the body. And that for me was absolutely staggering because originally I went to med school and we heard lots of the placebo research at the time, which was kind of seen as a bit of a pain to good clinical studies. But over the years more research has come out and a lot has been done on mindset and patients going through cancer treatment and what impact that can have on people. But there were other studies even that looked at our perceived activity levels and mortality. And they've done longitudinal studies looking at 61,000 adults in one study of up to 21 years. And those that perceived themselves as less active than their peers were 71% more likely to die in the follow up period even after you control for actual activity levels. And this is really impactful. So we've also got the research around pain and how we perceive pain and whether we think of it as permanent or temporary, and how that influences our perceived intensity of it and how unpleasant it is and stress. And the stress piece I especially share with organizations, again, not because we want to condone very, very high pressure situations in, in the workplace, I don't think that's the way to go. But I think there's something.
- [25:40]
A
It's quite the opposite, actually. I mean, you're doing quite the opposite.
- [25:44]
B
I hope so. Yeah, but the, but some, but we as individuals, we do also have a responsibility to look at how we are processing things and how we are labeling things. And so the idea that the diamond is formed under pressure and that if we perceive some stress, you know, a reasonable level of sort of up and down normal, not chronically high consistent, but bursts of stress, that that could actually be useful for us and could equip us and shape us in a positive way, then we can see people respond with a better emotional experience of the stressful period. They can demonstrate better cognitive flexibility, better physiological resilience and more recovery based hormones flooding their bodies. So the same stress with a different mindset can dramatically change the physiological response in people, which gives us hope from my perspective, right?
- [26:46]
A
No, it does indeed. And I'm wondering, you know, at whether it's work or, you know, in life in general. One of the things I think a lot of people, especially leaders, you know, struggle with is trying not to overthink things, you know, and I feel like a lot of times you're trying to be prepared for, you know, things that may not go your way at work or at home. And there's a way to do that. But I was wondering from your perspective, you know, what are some effective ways to do that without overthinking it? So, you know, how essentially can you prepare for the unexpected things that happened at work or at home or school or what have you to be able to maintain emotional resilience?
- [27:40]
B
I think overthinking often can come if we, our brain doesn't feel that we've got what it needs, so it keeps running that loop. And obviously there are some disorders that are linked to the chronic rumination, but also the habitual rumination that many more of us may fall into. I think if you can so research that Donald Hebb did. No, not Donald Hebb, my mistake. Edward Taub, who looked at constraint induced movement Therapy for stroke victims also found that when people were given almost a transfer package, so when they'd been in the rehab hospital and they got the physical side of it under control, what best supported them then go home and continue those new strong neural pathways that had enabled their paralyzed limb to become movable, usable again? What best supported them was thinking about what they would do when things went wrong. And this is in some ways a bit contradictory to what the norm seemed to be, at least for a period of years where people were encouraged. Don't think about the negative, only focus on the positive. And I can see where that comes from. But I think there's real opportunity in just thinking through the negative. Because, you know, what are the worst case scenarios here and can we actually deal with those? And once we actually look at them and realize that we probably can have a plan for the worst case scenarios, then the theory is that our brain can relax a little bit. It's no longer hugely fearful of what could go wrong, of the unknown, of the problems. And then it's. It knows it's manageable, so it can focus on what it needs to do in the here and now, rather than having this deeper or more unconscious loop, just bringing up that sense of discomfort, disease. I'm not sure whether that addresses what you were thinking, although.
- [29:39]
A
No, it does.
- [29:40]
B
You wanted to explore.
- [29:41]
A
Yes, no, it does. It does, definitely. Because I was thinking about a lot of times there, we have patterns that we fall into how we handle certain situations. And we can kind of keep going into those same patterns. But if you sort of think about things in advance sometimes I think that can be really helpful. But it's also a struggle for some people in terms of, like being able to balance. So you don't go, you know, into like going through every single scenario. It's like you just need a bit of a plan.
- [30:11]
B
Absolutely. Almost just the worst case scenario. Cause if it's. Once we've done that one, everything.
- [30:16]
A
Yes, that's a good way to say it. The worst case scenario. Yeah, yeah.
- [30:21]
B
Because if that's the worst everything else, we can make a plan, but we can work it out. If people are sort of ruminating around fears of all the different scenarios, all the different things that can go wrong or what we are grooved in repetitive behaviors. It can need a bit of a. Almost a run up to jump out of that loop, to have something that really shakes things up mentally because we do get almost trapped in those repetitive cycles. And for that I'd always suggest physically changing your environment. So change your physical environment and stir up some different senses. So use smell, use touch in it, use heat or cold, but do something really different physically because you're more likely to be able to disrupt the same neural pathways if you're not in the same space. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs.
- [31:26]
A
It gives your job post the boost
- [31:28]
B
it needs to be seen and helps
- [31:30]
A
reach people with the right skills, certifications and more.
- [31:33]
B
Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.
- [31:38]
A
Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast.
- [31:43]
B
That's Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. This episode is brought to you by Facebook.
- [31:54]
A
So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was. The bike you did searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for, from a browse to a bike ride this summer. Find more on Facebook. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling Smart move, another smart move getting help from one of State Farm's 19,000 local agents when you choose to bundle
- [32:33]
B
home and auto bundling.
- [32:35]
A
Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. I love that. And we're going to talk. I think I have. I have to find. I know I wrote down somewhere a question pertaining to how to shift your mindset with. Oh, it was. That's what it was. I was going to say with the sense of smell. I remember thinking about sometimes, like late at night, I think I was telling you I, you know, sometimes do interviews, you know, at different times with guests, and so I will sometimes make coffee. I find this so fascinating. And your book gave me, like, the answers as to why this occurs. I will make coffee. And I don't actually have to drink the coffee, just the smell of it. So my husband sometimes is like, angela, you know, you have to drink the coffee for it to work. And I'm like, yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right. And I'll drink the coffee. But sometimes, literally, the smell of making the coffee, the actions of, like actually doing the Task. And the smell really shifts my mind into like, okay, you're in creative mode, or whatever the mode is that I'm trying to get into.
- [33:46]
B
Of course you absolutely do not need to drink the coffee. If you've drunk the coffee many times before. Your brain knows what the coffee does to you, so it doesn't even need to consume it. You will. I bet if we measured the changes in you, your body would be responding as if you had drunk the coffee. Because we see that with pain relief all the time. That's probably the biggest area of research. But if I give you, if you've taken a pain relief tablet many times before, and then I give you one that looks the same, and then we measure your brain's response, it will behave as if you have been given the pain relief, which is so wild, so
- [34:23]
A
wild that I love that. I love that. I mean, it really does talk about, you know, my. Your mind, you know, the. The power of your brain.
- [34:33]
B
It's because it triggers the same cascade, the same response. So it trains in. And it's similar with bodies. You know, we know we can strengthen muscle groups by envisaging us practicing something, whether it's playing the piano, the violin, shooting basketball hoops. I've not managed to do it to slim down into a smaller pair of jeans for the smaller muscle groups. It's got good research for it.
- [35:06]
A
Let's talk about states, emotions and feelings. You have a section here and I enjoyed reading it because when I was reading I thought, well, those are essentially the same thing. And you start by saying just that. These terms are normally used interchangeably, you said here. But understanding the distinction really can give you an advantage. Can you share with us some of the insights there in terms of unlocking our full potential and how having an understanding of those terms essentially can be really helpful for you to shape your experience?
- [35:46]
B
Of course, I think a lot of times we feel like we are prisoners to or our emotions or how we feel is done to us and it's outside of our control, possibly more so with younger people and others. But I've certainly noticed it in a teenage population where the idea that we can actually control how we feel or our experience of something with practice, not necessarily in the moment, but over time, we can change how we. How we experience something and therefore then how we respond to something. But rather than lump them all together, if we separate them out. And some of the thinking is that emotions are more these internal chemical and neural processes that are going on. So there's a biochemical underpinning to them. Whereas our feelings could be used to describe the perception of what's changing internally. So our feelings are far more subjective. And actually you could have five different emotional biochemical scenarios that you experience in the same way. Equally, you could have different feelings and there be the same biochemical underpinning. So it's a weird kind of concept and it's getting more popularized, but it's not there yet. And then we also have our state, which typically is described as a general way of being and a sort of general experience rather than the specific feeling about something. But one of the challenges I have when people focus solely on their feelings is that they are so, so subjective and constructed. And there's been major leaps forward in, in emotions research that actually our perception of things and the internal neural conditions that the external things that occur are slotting into are changeable. What we predict, our past experiences data means that we can reshape, not necessarily just stop them in the moment, but with practice, change how we experience things. The classic example that I always share with other leaders who are needing to do talks in front of lots of people who then, you know, normally say to me, oh, you don't seem very nervous. You know, is it just because you've done it lots of times? And I always say, well, you know, I have some sensations that some people might perceive or label as anxiety or nerves in that I know that my heart beats faster before I go on stage. I know that my hands get really sweaty. I said, but, you know, I know that I do enjoy contributing ideas to people. And so I label it as excitement. And for some people, that's a real sort of light bulb moment of, oh, yeah, okay, you know, so I've got the heart, heart beating thing. And yeah, I do feel a bit sweaty palmed maybe, maybe this is an anxiety, maybe I am excited. So the same blueprint could be labeled differently. And I always say to my daughter, what's most helpful here? Because any one of these situations could be true or real. But actually what helps me most, it certainly wouldn't be to go and do lots of things that make me really nervous all of the time. But instead, if I label it as excitement, then, wow, I get to do really cool stuff. And we know from other research that having a wider emotional vocabulary is useful. And we can, we know that when we put people in MRI scanners and they label the different emotions that they are seeing, that engages a prefrontal cortex, which helps to regulate the amygdala activation. So by being able to discern and Label in a helpful way these different experiences. It seems to be helpful to people.
- [40:02]
A
Yeah, I mean, I, I think our brain is just really so incredible, all that it is capable of. You know, I think you. I can't remember the number, but there was the billions. Right. Of, of the neurons that exist. And you know, and I think I remember you comparing it to net, to Netflix books like the storage. I gave that analogy to my youngest son. I was like, you know how big our brains are. It's like I'm reading a book. Let me explain this to you.
- [40:34]
B
I think it gives children real hope and older people who suddenly sort of seem to believe that their brains run out of storage. They're like, oh, I couldn't possibly learn anything new because it will push the old stuff out. And I understand. But you know, hooking it onto the existing things that you're aware of, it can be incredible. And I think whenever we hear stories or see examples of people who are exceptional, it helps us to understand. Well, actually they've still got the same hardware. You know, there might be something different, but maybe there's things that we can adopt from that and that can help us.
- [41:12]
A
Yes. And you know, it's, I think, really useful, you know, for. Especially in the workplace. I think especially for, for leaders is really useful to know that, that you have the ability to, you know, shift your brain and your thinking. And you know, one of the, one of the favorite chapters, one of my favorite chapters that I liked or that I enjoyed was Brain Fuel for Success. And you know, you talk a lot about achieving goals and I wonder if we could speak to that a little bit in terms of you describe here. People can achieve amazing things when their brain is optimally programmed. What does that look like? How do you optimally program your brain?
- [42:02]
B
I think the first thing is to be clear on where you're heading. It doesn't mean that you have to be able to picture every detail, but a broader, a broad vision of some sort. It can be components of it.
- [42:17]
A
Self awareness. Is it, is it more. When you say where you're.
- [42:23]
B
Self awareness is useful, for sure. And an awareness of where you're trying to get to. So if you were trying to improve particular skills or, you know, build a business, what does that business look like in five years from now? And that's the. One of the most common cries we hear from people in big organizations is the vision isn't clear enough. We don't know where we're trying to get to.
- [42:49]
A
Okay, okay. So the goals aspect of the goals.
- [42:52]
B
Okay, yeah, the goals. Where are we actually going? Because without that clarity, the brain can't start to organize itself to be heading in that direction. So it can't bring up into your conscious awareness, you know, what your strength, strengths and weaknesses might be in pursuit of that goal. And once we know those, then we can start to scaffold everything else to be pulling in that direction and we can think about what mind frames, how do we filter information, how do we perceive data that's coming in in a way that's going to take us closer to that goal or further away from it. Then we can look at the behaviors. What are we actually doing? Are we ruminating on things that are unhelpful or are we doing the morning routines that you do that set me up to be the best version of me to achieve these goals and the physical environments we're in, you know, are we sat in front of a computer all day long trying to multitask, too many tabs open, doing intensive prefrontal cortex type work all day every day, or are we getting out into nature having brain breaks, doing things that will enable our, our default mode network to come online? So I think all of those things need to be considered in order to set your brain up to achieve goals optimally. And then we can start to think about how we work in relation with other people as well. And who do we need to bring in that's got the offers diversity of thought to us in order to help us achieve these goals.
- [44:26]
A
I love here on page 313. I think this was my favorite section. You say creativity isn't a random spark of genius, it's a process. The brain has a default network, a neural system responsible for imagination, big picture thinking and generating new ideas. I really love that section of the book and I thought that from a neurosphere science perspective how you, you know, shared a lot of different tips and information there. I think it's really helpful for readers. Is there anything you want to expand upon as it pertains to our brains innovation network?
- [45:10]
B
I think a lot of people still think that you've either got it or you haven't. And that's what I really wanted to dispel is that it is not surprising that many people in today's day and age who are sat in front of computers do not feel that they can be creative or innovative because they're not giving their brain the chance to activate the networks required to make those lateral connections. And that said, we don't just want to be in that kind of network. Activation. So we do need the logical, the rationale networks to come online almost to bookend the process. So at the start, to be clear on, for example, what problem were we trying to solve and then to downregulate so that we can increase the activation of other networks and we can make those lateral connections. And then at the end, again, we need to evaluate and assess what we have considered, what's come into our conscious awareness. So all networks of the brain are valuable and contribute. And the key, I think, is to just make sure we're giving enough airtime to all of them. And I don't know whether we mention AI or whether it's a banned topic, but one of the challenges that we're seeing is that we're requiring some people in some types of work to just be a checking AI's work at the moment. And that's definitely going to deplete and it's predictable some of the things that we're now seeing with skills and other things. But yeah, utilize all of your brain's richness and different networks in order to be fulfilled, be engaged, be contributing what you really can, content and happy, but also be as productive as you possibly can be. So I think, yeah, if we can dispel that myth, that would be a good one.
- [47:11]
A
One. Well, and I think that's really, I mean, when you think about AI. Right. You know, I think that's what's really helpful for I think a lot of people. It's a tool to help you to be very, you know, creative and it can help you optimize things and help you with scheduling and it can, it can really be a support to serve you if you use it the right way.
- [47:34]
B
Absolutely, I agree.
- [47:36]
A
Well, this time flew by so fast. When is your next book? We need another book from you, Amy. When is the next expert?
- [47:43]
B
I am certainly toying with one. I think there's a. We are, we're working on something at the moment that's. I think it's a bit unusual. It's. It's trying to look at the structures in organization so the things that cause the friction and reducing those so that people can do more of their optimal work rather than all of the bits that get in the way. So, yes, hopefully that will be in the not too distant future.
- [48:12]
A
Yes, I love that. And you know what, share with us too, a little bit more about your, your work in terms of, before we close, how you got into the field of neuroscience.
- [48:24]
B
I was just crazy obsessed with it since I was about 14. It just suddenly suddenly switched on in me. And so I just raid all the bookshops. And there wasn't that much back then, but then I went to medical school and we only spent six weeks on the brain out of what is a six year degree. You spend six weeks purely on the brain, which wasn't enough for me. And I realized I sort of wanted to do something other than medicine, despite loving it by that point. So I came out of it. And the neuroscience degrees were all clinical in nature and I didn't want that either. I wanted to be utilizing what we were learning about the brain to and make work better and enable humans to do what they do better. And so I think I was just a bit persevering, trying to get people to listen. And now it's quite recognized, now it's quite mainstream that oh yes, people have brains. Of course it's useful to understand how brains work. And so we just get alongside organizations, work with some amazing companies trying to optimize the performance of their humans, often now through structural changes, so that the humans can be free to contribute what they're really capable of, but sometimes still equipping the employees and the leaders with awareness of how the brain works so that they can make better choices.
- [49:48]
A
Well, your work is very enlightening and I can't wait to when that book is, whenever it's finished, I definitely want to be one of the first people to read it.
- [49:57]
B
Oh, I'd so value that. Thank you, Amy.
- [50:01]
A
Thank you again for sharing your time and your knowledge with us. We really appreciate it.
- [50:06]
B
It's been a huge pleasure. Angela, thank you.
- [50:09]
A
Well listeners, that's today's conversation with author Amy Brand about her book make youe Brain Work. One of the strongest ideas that came for me from today's conversation is really recognizing that our brain can help us become smarter leaders, more creative thinkers, and even stronger performers. If you read this book, I think what you'll learn is how to think more clearly, innovate and collaborate and essentially achieve meaningful goals in both your personal and professional life. If you'd like to share thoughts about your brain, feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram @livewithangela. Until next time, stay curious. Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network. We are an academic podcast network with
- [50:57]
B
the mission of public education. If you liked this episode, please share
- [51:01]
A
it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can browse all of our episodes on our website, newbooks network.com connect with
- [51:09]
B
us on Instagram and Blue sky with
- [51:11]
A
the Handle EW Books Network and subscribe
- [51:13]
B
to our weekly substrate newsletter@newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get
- [51:18]
A
episode recommendations straight to your inbox.