An Interview with Rachel Orr

Summary

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Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: An Interview with Rachel Orr

Date: June 13, 2026
Host: Mel Rosenberg
Guest: Rachel Orr, Literary Agent and former Editor at HarperCollins
Main Theme: Insights into literary agenting, picture book publishing, and career development in children’s literature, featuring Rachel Orr’s advice and reflections on her professional journey.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the world of children’s book publishing from the unique perspective of Rachel Orr—a long-standing literary agent with nearly two decades in the field and previous experience as an editor at HarperCollins. Host Mel Rosenberg explores with Rachel the nuances of pitching, acquiring, and selling picture books, as well as the evolving landscape of children’s literature. The conversation is full of practical advice, personal anecdotes, and a celebration of the creativity and perseverance required to thrive as an author or agent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Rachel’s Path: Editor to Agent

• Early Career & Literary Background

  • Rachel was a voracious childhood reader who “asked to go in the playpen” with a pile of books, cultivating a lifelong passion for children’s literature.

    “I would ask to go in there because… she would sit me with a pile of books… I would not rip the page. I would just sit and turn the pages.” [22:00, Rachel]

  • Studied writing at Kenyon College, where she discovered her true skills lay in editing others’ work rather than in being an author herself.

    “My real takeaway was that I learned how to edit because we had to do a lot of editing of other people’s work.” [23:37, Rachel]

  • Early publishing exposure included interning at Highlights magazine.

• Transition to Agency

  • Worked nearly eight years as an editor at HarperCollins before becoming a literary agent, setting up the children’s genre at her agency.
  • Rachel explains the distinctions and overlap between editorial and agenting roles, emphasizing an agent’s ability to pursue multiple avenues for clients’ work.

    “If Harper says no, I can send it to Little Brown. I can send it to Simon & Schuster.” [26:35, Rachel]

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The Picture Book Process: Art, Trust, and Collaboration

• Text vs. Illustration

  • Rachel underscores the importance of trust in the writer-illustrator collaboration. Writers should resist overloading manuscripts with art notes unless absolutely necessary.

    “Go easy on the art notes… It’s all about trust. We have to trust the illustrator to do their job.” [04:56, Rachel]

• Visualizing the Manuscript

  • The ability to envision a manuscript as a finished picture book (thinking in “spreads”) helps Rachel assess its potential.

    “If I’m able to visualize what the art could look like, then that’s a great litmus test for whether I’ll be able to take them on as a client.” [06:28, Rachel]

• Pagination and Formatting

  • Rachel recommends not obsessing over strict pagination in submissions but encourages clear scene breaks and awareness of page turns, which build suspense and control pacing.

    “I feel like the pagination is a useful tool in making sure it can be a 32 or 40 page picture book… break it into scenes that are sizable chunks.” [10:04, Rachel]

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Market Trends and Evolving Genres

• Genre Blending

  • Rachel observes the increasing fusion of genres—picture books, graphic novels, and easy readers—citing the influence of popular series (e.g., Mo Willems’ "Elephant & Piggie") and new hybrid formats.

    “I think the more popular graphic novels are becoming, then it’s almost the trickle-down effect… a lot more speech bubbles… than in panels that maybe were even 20 years ago.” [15:08, Rachel]

• Embracing Market Shifts

  • Successful authors must adapt to changing market preferences; sometimes revisiting and revising old manuscripts to fit new trends leads to later sales.

    “In the past few years since you’ve seen it, how could it be different? How could it be better?” [13:05, Rachel]

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The Agent’s Desk: Submissions, Queries & The Gatekeeper Role

• Volume & Selectivity

  • Rachel receives thousands of manuscripts annually, typically accepting just a few new clients each year.

    “Maybe 10,000 manuscripts a year… chooses three new clients a year… the chance of a manuscript becoming an actual book is 1 in 3,000.” [27:26, Mel; 27:56, Rachel]

• The True Gatekeepers

  • While editors make final purchase decisions, Rachel recognizes her own role as a significant “gatekeeper” of what reaches editors.

    “I guess I am… I’m a gatekeeper.” [28:00, Rachel]

• Query Letters: Straightforward Wins

  • Rachel advises brevity and professionalism; the manuscript itself matters most. Don’t agonize over comp titles or excessive personalization.

    “Just tell me your name… tell me about your book… thank you for your time. Boom. Very, very short.” [29:58, Rachel] “The most important thing is not to fret over it.” [32:22, Rachel]

  • A good submission should have several polished manuscripts ready; Rachel typically asks for three but suggests writers have up to six in reserve.

• What Catches Her Eye

  • Rachel appreciates seeing variety (e.g., prose vs. verse, nonfiction vs. fiction) and mentions a success story where a client sent multiple diverse manuscripts, all leading to eventual publication.

    “I said, okay, can you send me three more? … She sent me a nonfiction book… a board book… and a lyrical picture book. …we were actually really successful with all of those.” [35:03, Rachel]

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Career Lessons: Perseverance, Passion, and Pragmatism

• Keep Improving and Persevering

  • Both Mel and Rachel stress writers must not give up, continuing to write, revise, and submit, even after agent representation or repeated rejection.

    “Never, ever, ever, ever give up.” [40:41, Rachel] “Keep plugging… I could be a poster boy for perseverance. I… was rejected 300 times.” [39:27, Mel]

• View Publishing as a Business

  • Rachel cautions against over-attachment to manuscripts, emphasizing the health and resilience that come from viewing the work more objectively.

    “Remember it is a business… not to get too emotionally attached to everything.” [38:17, Rachel]

• Find Community

  • Attending conferences, getting feedback, and joining critique groups are invaluable for both craft and morale.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Go easy on the art notes... It's all about trust." – Rachel Orr [04:56]
• “If I’m able to visualize what the art could look like, then that’s a great litmus test for whether I’ll… sell it.” – Rachel Orr [06:28]
• “You don’t necessarily have to in your manuscript write page one, page three, page five…” – Mel Rosenberg [13:05]
• “I always feel like I have all these… wind up toys or dominoes… you’re kind of getting one on the path and then you get the next one on the path...” — Rachel Orr, on client management [19:19]
• “If Harper says no, I can send it to Little Brown. I can send it to Simon & Schuster.” – Rachel Orr [26:35]
• “Maybe 10,000 manuscripts a year… the chance of a manuscript becoming an actual book is 1 in 3,000.” – Mel Rosenberg [27:26]
• “Just tell me your name… very short. Tell me about your book… Thank you for your time. Boom.” – Rachel Orr on query letters [29:58]
• “Never, ever, ever, ever give up.” – Rachel Orr [40:41]
• “The thing about publishing is it’s like an axolotl. It’s pink, it’s grinning, and it keeps regenerating itself.” – Rachel Orr [38:17]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:30 – Rachel’s career overview and collaborative journey with Mel
• 04:22 – The writer-illustrator collaboration and advice on art notes
• 06:28 – How Rachel evaluates manuscripts and visualizes artwork
• 08:36 – The importance of pagination and page turns
• 13:05 – Revisiting old manuscripts and adapting to market trends
• 15:08 – Blending genres: picture books and graphic novels
• 19:19 – Managing a large roster of author-illustrators
• 21:54 – Rachel’s childhood love of books and becoming an editor
• 25:32 – Decision to move from editor to agent
• 26:01 – Who are the “real” gatekeepers in publishing?
• 27:26 – Volume of submissions and selectivity
• 29:58 – Query letter essentials
• 34:11 – What Rachel looks for in potential new clients
• 38:17 – Perseverance, the publishing business, and final advice

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Final Thoughts

Rachel Orr’s candor and warmth shine through this episode, providing writers and illustrators with practical insider guidance and encouragement. The publishing journey, especially in picture books, demands creativity, resilience, strategic adaptability, and a willingness to trust both collaborators and the market’s changing tides. For those hopeful of a place on Rachel’s list—or with any agent—the essential steps are simple but not always easy: keep writing, keep improving, and above all, keep going.

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Transcript

[Rachel Orr]

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[Mel Rosenberg]

Welcome to the New Books Network. Ladies and gentlemen, Rachel Orr, fantastic literary agent and previously an editor at HarperCollins. And you're celebrating a couple of years now in the literary agency business?

[Rachel Orr]

Yeah, just a couple. About 19ish. Yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So when the year 20 comes around, we'll have to have a big celebration.

[Rachel Orr]

Definitely.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Maybe interview you again. Anyway, I'm so happy we interview you, but I forgot to introduce myself, so. I'm Mel Rosenberg. I am the host of the Children's Literature Channel of the New Books Network. And you and I, we have a book in common. Sort of, because our book Emily saw a door. And the fantastic illustrator of this book, the incredible illustrator Orith Magia, is now your client.

[Rachel Orr]

She is, and I am so thrilled. She's been such a joy to work with. And I was so grateful to Liza, your agent, for recommending her to me.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So. Yes, And I'm so delighted that somehow my book together with Orit ended up opening a door for me and a door for her as well. And you are Orit's door opener. And I hear that you've already hit the ground running, but I'm not Sure. That you can talk much about that.

[Rachel Orr]

Perhaps I should not, but I do have. Yes, we have hit the ground running. I don't know. I feel like she did open her own door with her marvelous artwork. Maybe I gave it a little push, but yes. So I. Yeah. And she's just really, really wonderful to work with. Really wonderful to collaborate with. We went back and forth on a number of different revisions and. Yes. So I will say we sold it in. In record time.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Are you sold something? You sold something? You said you weren't going to talk about it. You just talked about it.

[Rachel Orr]

I just a little hint that we sold something.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Something which might be a manuscript.

[Rachel Orr]

It might be a manuscript, yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So I want to show you something from our book, this double spread, which I think ingenious.

[Rachel Orr]

Oh, I love that one.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. It wasn't in the manuscript. This is something that Orit felt, but she had to add a double spread of her own. Not, you know, Emily's World, but Orit's World. And for me, the biggest joy, the biggest present if that double spread. I didn't write it. It was Orit's idea. But somehow I'm most proud of that in the book.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, it's. But your words opened. Open that world up to her. Right. So that's why I feel like it's such a beautiful collaboration. And whenever I'm working with picture book writers who are not illustrators, I'm always encouraging them. Just a lot of people feel that they want to put a lot of art notes and kind of manage it. And I understand, obviously, authors, as you did, have your own vision, but it can be so exciting also to see what the illustrators can bring to the table.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So, Rachel, is this your first piece of advice? Go very easy on the art notes?

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, exactly. I mean, unless it's a situation where there's a joke that is not going to be understood without an art note. As. As manuscripts are getting shorter and shorter these days, sometimes we need some art notes. If there's something you're trying to convey that is not meant to be spelled out in the text. But in general, yes. Go easy and just. It's all about trust. Right. We have to trust the illustrator to do. To do their job. The illustrator is trusting that the author has written a beautiful book. So there's just trust on all fronts.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, so we're jumping in now to the nitty gritty. You worked as an editor at Arper Collins, and then you essentially set up the children's genre at your agency. And picture books are Unique. We both have this great love for picture books, but you have to decide when you get a manuscript. And the manuscript is kind of a scaffolding for art that the author has not created. Maybe imagine, maybe not. And you have not seen it either. So where is this jumping off where you read a manuscript and you say, oh, I have a vision for the artwork. I'll take this as to whether I just had a case of a manuscript where the vision for the artwork is more difficult. How do you go about this?

[Rachel Orr]

And is this when I'm. When I'm taking someone on as a client or when I'm selling it? Either one. I do think that if I'm able to visualize what the art could look like, then that's a great litmus test for whether I'll be able to take them on as a client, whether I'll be able to sell it. It's very similar to. I do represent some novels. Not as much my primary focus is picture books. But if I'm reading a novel and I'm picturing it cinema, cinema, cinema graphically, as a movie, then that's a good sign for me that I'm identifying with the characters. I can visualize them. And so likewise for a picture book, if I'm able to. To really picture, okay, what is this scene? What are the characters doing? I'm always encouraging my writers, too, to think in spreads. This is eventually, at the end of the day, going to be a picture book. It's different from a story that might be written, say, for Highlights magazine or another children's publication. This is. This is in spreads. And so even though we might not send a manuscript that is paginated, I still want people thinking in spreads. And I've just sent out a submission yesterday where I just had a very clear vision for how. How the art would look, what the spreads might look like. And I feel like it helped us through the editing process to. To be able to think about this and flesh it out before sending it to editors, who then, of course, will go on and do that themselves. But I feel like if we can give them as strong of a manuscript as possible, then that's only. Only a good thing. And it gives them a strong base from which to start.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So this is. This is a kind of a. An open question. I was hoping you'd say something like, oh, even if I can't figure out how this might be illustrated, then maybe I'll give an illustrator to figure it out herself. But we. We can come back to this. But last year I did.

[Rachel Orr]

Absolutely true. Yes, but, and, and it will be different. I'll have a vision and the end product will be totally different than I've imagined. But it's still a strong story.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay. And you talked about pagination and I instigated, invited you to give a talk last year for scbwi, a wonderful talk on the importance of page turn and paginations. How high up there is. Is this in your criteria for a successful manuscript?

[Rachel Orr]

I, I think it's pretty high up. And again, I want people thinking about, I want authors thinking about this as a book. And so it can just really be helpful to think about, oh, that's going to be the page turn where there's the, the butt of the joke or the big surprise, something or a little bit of tension. And it really just helps to think of the pacing of the book. Of course, it's just one, one element. It needs to be beautifully written, have a marketing hook and all the things. But in terms of the pacing, I feel like that's really helpful. And of course though, like anything that's something I can come in, an author can come in and really help to finesse that if that, if the idea is already there.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay. But you can feel I tend to dummy up all my manuscripts because I think it's really one of the most important criteria. But you know, some authors I've, I've seen when they submit, they have like page one page and they're like, they delineate the pages. If I were an editor or a, an agent, I would almost resent that. What do you feel about it?

[Rachel Orr]

So what I've started doing, sometimes I will do that mostly if it's a very short manuscript and I almost want to prove that it actually 32 pages or it's a very long manuscript and I want to show it can still work. But often what I've, what I've done is encourage the author to have more of a, a block of text and then a line space. So we're not exact, but, but setting the scenes so we're not exactly specifying this is page 4 5, this is page 6 7. Again, I feel like the pagination is a useful tool in making sure it can be a 32 or 40 page picture book. But often then we'll take the numbers out and then just break it into scenes that are sizable chunks. If it's not that, it shouldn't be that long of a manuscript, but it still is helpful to read if they're in sizable chunks.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I noticed that your Successful badger book. Yes, it's a bit. It's, it's hilarious. It's great. It's a bit word heavy.

[Rachel Orr]

Um, yes, I guess it is. I guess it is. I don't know. I love the, the writing so much that I guess I wasn't really worried about, about the word count and apparently wasn't either.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And it works. And, and it's so lovely. Show me. And the. I won't say readers, the viewers, the listeners. Show the listeners some of your latest sales.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes. Yes. So these are two books I just got copies of on Monday from the editor. This is There's a Pony in My Apartment by Jen Jennifer Harney, published by Little Brown. So, so the basic thought here is the basic concept is that the girl's uncle sends her pony, she lives in an apartment, and that's difficult. She has the task of convincing her mother this is exactly the pet for her. And then speaking of pets, Jen also illustrated the Secret Life of Dog Toys for. For somebody else for Kelly Depe. So, yes, she's a wonderful artist. And just a fun thing about the, the Pony in My Apartment. This was a book that we had, we'd actually had on submission a long time ago and it had gone through many, many different revisions for a different editor and pushing it, pushing it, and then it just wasn't the right fit in the end. And so we pulled it back, sold a bunch of other things, and then just returned to it later. And it's a completely different story. In fact, yesterday I was just looking through it. That was the first time I think I had actually seen the full book in this iteration. So much fun, so different from the original version, but just the idea that while creators should always be moving on to the next thing and creating new works, it's okay also to kind of revisit some ideas and see in the past few years since you've seen it, how could it be different? How could it be better?

[Mel Rosenberg]

So I'm making mental notes now. So your tip number two was you don't necessarily have to in your manuscript write page one, page three, page five and so on. But you can give a general by spacing, for example, that you have been thinking about the page terms and the spread of across the book.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, exactly.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And your next advice, I mean, it's not necessarily an advice interview, but you're giving such sage advice. And the next would be to go back to previous manuscripts now and then.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, exactly.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Because I'm doing that myself. I look at stuff that is four or six years old. And it's not that it wasn't good then, but my writing has changed and I think that this is a. And also you're able to look at it from kind of objective eyes, which usually you can do when a manuscript is too visible, right?

[Rachel Orr]

No, exactly. And sometimes actually the same author illustrator. I do have other clients, but the same author illustrator, she actually also had a project that initially were two human characters because I think at the time that was more popular. And then years pass and she ended up totally changing them so that now there's a dog character, Frankenstein and a stuffed toy. And we sold that and we also sold it in a different format. Originally it was a picture book and now this is like an easy reader chapter book. So I think as the market shifts, that might open up different avenues that were not there previously.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Are genres blending like you talked in a previous interview about picture books and moving to more graphic. Graphic. I don't know what the word is. Graphic books, graphic novels, graphic, what have you. But is there also the backwards thrust of graphic novels influencing how picture books are illustrated and developed?

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, I think so. I think the more popular graphic novels are becoming then it's almost the trickle down effect. The picture books, there's a lot more speech bubbles than in panels that maybe were even 20 years ago. I remember when I was still at Harper, kind of in the early, early 2000s, I had a book I had acquired as a picture book. And then they wanted it to become a graphic novel, but it just wasn't done as much as it is today. And so I feel like both authors, illustrators and editors and art directors are getting more comfortable with this genre. And it's really fun to be able to. Yeah. Break boundaries and. And I was laughing to myself as you were thinking of the right word for this genre because they're. So I went to announce a book and I. I didn't even know what to call it. I asked the editor, oh, is, is this an easy reader or chapter book? I think she. I think it was like an easy reader graphic novel chapter book or something like that. But I love that. I love that. I mean, when I was growing up, you kind of went from like frog and toad to Beverly Cleary and there was nothing really in between. So you kind of went to the chapter book. It was a little more of a middle grade, right. With like maybe black and white spot illustrations for each chapter opener, but now there's so much more of a range and I feel like that's what publishers are really aiming to do, is to read every, meet every reader where they're at.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Of course, that creates a problem for librarians, but neither of us are librarians, so that's okay.

[Rachel Orr]

Right. So not my problem. Yes, exactly.

[Mel Rosenberg]

While you were talking, I was thinking of Mo Willems, you know, with the Elephant and Piggy. We are in a book, so that must have been really groundbreaking at the time.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, yes, for sure. And I feel like that was very groundbreaking. And also Narwhal and Jelly, I feel like is along those same lines, but somehow that was like groundbreaking all over again. I think, with also the shorter, shorter stories within a book is what is what that did a little differently in Elephant and Piggy, but it was great. And if you think about Elephant and Piggy, those were. I mean, he. The don't let the pigeon drive the butts, which were very, you know, all the speech balloons and everything. And then it kind of just naturally. Elephant and Piggy naturally grew out of that to become its own thing.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. So what I want to ask you now, and I should mention that I keep interviewing wonderful authors and discovering that you represent them. So Nancy Hudgins and Susie Levinson and probably many more have been on this show. And I kept saying, oh, my goodness, I have to go to the source and interview you as well. So a couple of the people that you represent beyond Orit Maggia that I also know.

[Rachel Orr]

No, that's great. Yeah. It is a very small world, for sure.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So do you want to mention a few people that you represent that I might know?

[Rachel Orr]

Oh, let me think.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You're going to get into trouble.

[Rachel Orr]

Yeah. Lauren, Gladly. As you know from the Proper badger. Susie Levinson. I don't know if you know her for dinosaur.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yes, I've interviewed her. Dinos that Drive. I love it.

[Rachel Orr]

Oh, that was fantastic.

[Mel Rosenberg]

In verse.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes. She is just a master. Sudipta, Barth and Qualin. She was one of my first clients. Corey Dorfeld, who did the Rabbit Listened. Mike Ciccatello, who has done Beach Toys versus School Supplies. He's coming out with a new. Actually kind of a hybrid picture book, but it's almost like a graphic novel. It's a lot like. One of the comp titles we used was Mo Willems's Hooray for Alligator. I think it was called Hooray for Amanda and Her Alligator, where there's short stories within a picture book format. So he's working with that. Kathy Carr is a novelist that I represent in middle grade. So, yeah, so many, so many fun ones. I'm sure I'm forgetting a thousand of them.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But yes, we can apologize.

[Rachel Orr]

Not that I represent a thousand, but.

[Mel Rosenberg]

How many do you represent?

[Rachel Orr]

Maybe maximum 40 to 60. Maybe. But. But the thing is, not everyone's working on something at the same time. So I always think of it as. And especially novelists. Well, you know, they'll have a novel, then they go away for two years and then they come back and they have another novel. So I. I always feel like I'm have all these. These wind up toys or dominoes and you're kind of getting one on the path and then you get the next one on the path and the next one and then you look back and this one has stopped. So you get that one going again. But it's so much fun. It's such a fun challenge to. Yeah. Just to. Because everybody's path is different. The right publisher and editor for one client might be totally different than the other. And so that's what I love about agenting too. I really love people and I love trying to figure out for that particular person what at that particular stage of their career, what is the best path for them or one of the best paths. There's no single path. But yes. Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney. Let's go get ready for a new case. We're gonna crack this case and prove we're the greatest partners of all time. New friends. You are Gary the Snake. And your last name the Snake.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Dream Team. New habitats.

[Rachel Orr]

Zootopia has a secret reptile population. You can watch the record breaking phenomenon at home.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You're clearly working it.

[Rachel Orr]

Zootopia 2 now available on Disney. Rated PG. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You know those friends who support your preference for podcasts over music on road trips. That's the energy State Farm brings to insurance. With over 19,000 local agents, they help you find the coverage that fits your needs so you can spend less time worrying about insurance and more time enjoying the ride. Download the State Farm app or go online at statefarm.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Com.

[Rachel Orr]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's great that you enjoy it and I'm so happy that you do. Let's now segue back to to Young Rachel because I'm also always intrigued on my interviews how people like us fall in Love with picture books. And of course, you know, my theory that people who write illustrate love picture books are five year olds apart.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, for sure.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Are you a five year old at heart? Oh, it's about your. Your childhood.

[Rachel Orr]

Oh, yes. Well, my mom always likes to talk about how when I was really Little in the 70s and playpens were now, now I feel like play pens are not very popular, but at the time they were very popular. And I would ask to go in there because I would just. She would sit me with a pile of books and I had the Golden Books and even like the JCPenney catalog. I would just sit and she says, I would not rip the page. I would just sit and turn the pages and. And it was perfect because I think she was pregnant with my sister at the time. So I would just, I would, I would just sit there and, and read forever. I mean, read. And that was another thing. She never really knew, knew when I learned to read because she just thought I had all my books memorized. And then I was in the car one day and I said, oh, look, what does Body by Fisher mean? And she said, where do you see that? I said, right there. So then she. She took me inside and got a book that she hadn't. She bought for me but was going to give to me later as a present, I sat down and read the whole thing. So she doesn't know where I came up with that. So. I've always loved reading and of course I wrote a ton when I was a kid. And it's interesting because I feel like people go into editorial, go into agenting a lot of people because they want to write and then they find out that they actually don't want to write. They really find their creative pursuits in editing and agenting, which is the camp I was in. And then you find a lot of other people who go in to editing and then decide they really just want to write and then they become writers.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So you went in the opposite direction. You wrote and you wrote and then you said, oh, it's much more fun helping other people with books.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes. Yes. I went to college for writing. I went to Kenyon College. My main takeaway was that I was terrible at writing short stories. But I really, my. My real takeaway was that I learned how to edit because we had to do a lot of editing of other people's work. I was also very fortunate. I was there when they started what was called the Kennan Review Student Associate Program. They started my sophomore year, so I got to read a lot of Manuscripts very different from picture books, of course, but for the Kenan Review. And then my senior year, I was in charge of the associates. It was just a really great experience. And then I also did. When I was little, my. My main goal in life is that I wanted to take over Kent L. Brown Jr. S job at Highlights magazine. That was like, really what I wanted to do. So I, as a sophomore in college, I had written the Highlights, and they said, wanting to be an intern, and I could only do it for a week. They said, you have to do it for three weeks and you have to be a junior. So I said, okay. So then I wrote back and I said, okay, now I am a rising junior. I can do it for three weeks. And they said, okay. So I went and worked for the children's magazine three weeks, and I got to meet Ken L. Brown, Jr. I did not ever take over his job, but it was just really so special to be able to be there. And that was my real first foray into publishing.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Amazing. You know, I have to go back to your. To your early childhood with the Playpen because it's so darling. It reminds me of a Golden Book Song story when I was 4 or 5 with Br Rabbit.

[Rachel Orr]

Oh, yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. And Tar Baby.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And don't. Don't throw me into the. Into the brier patch.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, yes, I remember.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And yeah. And you're like, don't put me in the playpen. Don't put me in the playpen. That's really where you want it. Really where you want it to be. Fantastic.

[Rachel Orr]

Yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So. So you were an editor for. For, I don't know, eight years or so at Harper Collins, and then you decided to become an agent.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And so what I wanted to ask you, and I can only ask people who were both editors and agents is who are the real gatekeepers? The editors at the publishers or the agents trying to sell them the manuscript?

[Rachel Orr]

I mean, I'd say ultimately the editors are the gatekeepers. Right. They have the final say in actually buying the book. But what I love about being an agent is I. I loved editorial too, and I learned a ton at Harper. But if I would take a manuscript into a meeting and then, you know, someone had a bad day and they said no, it wouldn't have been because the manuscript was bad. It only would have been for exterior reasons. But if they said no, then there was. There was nothing else I could do. But I love as an agent, I can. If Harper says no, I can send it to Little Brown. I can send it to Simon And Schuster.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But Rachel, that means that you are the real gatekeeper.

[Rachel Orr]

Oh, no, I would love to be, but. But I'm not the final one. There are so many manuscripts I'm going to.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But I want to now to prove to you that you are the gatekeeper. Okay. How are you open for submissions?

[Rachel Orr]

I'm always, I'm never closed for submissions. I do have a lot of clients right now, so I have to be very, you know, particular opposite.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. Okay. So as a special offer to all the people watching and listening today, Rachel is open for submission. Incredibly, yes. Till midnight. Till midnight. So you must get hundreds of manuscripts a month.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, probably, yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Which means maybe five or ten thousand or more manuscripts a year.

[Rachel Orr]

Maybe. Oh, it sounds a lot if you think of it like that. Yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

When I was a scientist once they told me not to write that into my query letter, though. We'll go there in a minute. But if you make a simple calculation that Rachel Orr sees 10,000 manuscripts a year and chooses three new clients a year, the chance of a manuscript becoming an actual book is 1 in 3,000.

[Rachel Orr]

Yeah, that might be right. Yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So you are the hatekeeper.

[Rachel Orr]

I guess I am. I'm a gatekeeper.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yes, but keeping the gatekeeper because it's like Emily in the doors, you know, if door a book you say, you know what, okay, there's other doors, not Emily. And then you go knocking on another.

[Rachel Orr]

I do a lot of knocking. Sometimes I feel like my knuckles are bruised from knocking. But then other days, I don't know, like now, I don't want to jinx it, but this, this week, it seems like everyone is buying manuscripts for some reason. I don't know, maybe it's this, the sunshine we're having here or.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Rachel, you're segueing to all my, all my questions. I want, I was going to ask you, how many manuscripts do you sell a year?

[Rachel Orr]

Oh, and I, I don't have that exact, exact number. I did make a list here.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I want an approximate number, if you will.

[Rachel Orr]

I feel, I think this, this is. So far I've sold maybe 13 this year. 13 to 15. And then I have three going to editorial next week. And so it's. Yeah, so I don't know, so maybe 30. If you roughly double that. We're about halfway through the year, so. And it's, it's also. That's including some. I was just counting those as single books, even if I sold like a two book deal. But then a few of those, I was lucky enough that it was. Someone said, oh, we've already published two of these. We love them. We want to publish one or two more, especially in the chat for Book Realm.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Fantastic. So as the, as the chief gatekeeper, people who are in the trenches fret endlessly about the query letters.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Which I call query letters. Maybe because I grew up in Canada. I still remember the query or query letters. And you, you've been on record as saying that there's only maybe one important thing or two about a query letter and that in picture books, the manuscript is king. Would you elaborate, please?

[Rachel Orr]

Yes. Yes. So basically, I don't. I know I feel bad because I feel like a lot of people really, like you said, they fret over this and are worried they said the wrong thing or that there's a slight typo, but that that's not going to make it or break it in the end of the day. Like really the manuscript is what's important. I like it personally just to be as short and succinct as possible. Just tell me your name especially it's important if I've met you at a conference or you heard me speak somewhere. Mention that. Very short. Tell me about your book. Tell me if you're involved in different scbwi, etc, different organizations. Thank you for your time. Boom. Very, very short. A lot of people worry about comp titles. I, I am terrible personally with coming up with comp titles. So if it's the right one, then I will include it. If it's not, some. Sometimes what I found is people will include a comp title and I've never actually heard of it before. And I think, oh, well, that's fine. It's a fine line. Right. Because you don't want to just list all the best sellers. Although I did have a client that when I was reading her query letter had basically said this is like. And then went on to list like every bestseller. I was like, oh, okay, maybe it is. And so that was fun. I don't, I don't know if it actually was like all those. But yeah, I feel like if, if there's something to compare it to, fine. But also if it's something like so with Susie Lovinson, Dinos that drive. That is something that speaks for itself. You don't really need to prove dino books are popular and vehicle books are popular. It just is clear that these are popular.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, so don't fret about the comps.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, exactly. Don't fret at all. But especially don't fret about the cops.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, but, but like, should people refer to you How. Hi Rachel. If they don't know you. Hello, Ms. Or. And is that important to what extent do people who haven't met you need to try and make this personal?

[Rachel Orr]

Yeah, I mean I. Anything is fine. Miss Or Rachel. Either. Either one is fine with me. I don't like it if people are like super friendly. I mean just write it as you would like.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Hey. Hey, Rach, how are you doing? How's life?

[Rachel Orr]

Yeah, yeah, sometimes I do get some of those.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But what is, what is your nickname?

[Rachel Orr]

Probably Rach Ray. If my.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yes. So. So to all the listeners and viewers, do not write a query letter and say, hey Ray, Rach, how's it going?

[Rachel Orr]

Yeah, exactly. Sometimes I will get Rebecca because they just pick on our name from the Old Testament. But it's probably better than Rahab. So, you know, you never, you never know. But yeah, just, just thinking of it like you would write for any. If you're applying for a job, you're not going to be like, hey, Bobby B. At the bank, you know, like you're not going to do that. It's just, just regular. You don't need to be super stiff and formal, but just professional polite. The shorter the better. Right? If I just see just, just especially for a picture book, if it's a novel then you can attach a synopsis and it can still be short and sweet. But yeah, just. But I think the most important thing is not to fret over it and also not to just sit. Refreshing your email. Refreshing your email. I do this of course when I know a book is going to acquisitions but just, just move on to the next thing I feel like is the way healthier approach. That's because that's what I have to do. I do have to like send the manuscripts out and I am. If I know what's going to editorial acquisitions, I will be a bit more focused on it. But if not, I need to just keep doing the next thing. Yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's always good to have the next date.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, exactly.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So if somebody writes you a manuscript that you do like, what is the next step? How many manuscripts should an author have ready to send you in this lucky miraculous event? Would you like to start?

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, I would say around. I will usually ask for three picture book manuscripts. It's probably good to have probably six in your back. Six polished manuscripts. So one, you're sending out five more in your back pocket. I also like to see and this is something that can go in a query letter. If you send me something in verse saying, oh, I also write in prose Or Lauren Glatly actually had said, oh, I also write YA novels. I have a YA novel. And in fact, the reason she had queried me, she was really focusing on her YA novel, had written the picture book of Prepper Badger just as something to work on while she was waiting to hear from YA agents. And so that's kind of how that came to be. But the query letter is the place to say I have other her picture book manuscripts upon request. I write novels. So if I really.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But not. But not. I play cimbalo and dance Irish jigs.

[Rachel Orr]

No, unless your picture book is about Irish jigs, then definitely say that. Yeah, you don't need to say. I loved writing ever since I was a child. Everyone loved writing as a child usually. So then I'll write to them and say, oh, I really like this. Do you have anything else you can show me? And that's your chance to show me maybe. Oh, I have one in nonfiction in fact. So as an example, this was somebody I'd met through an SCBWI conference and I loved her picture book manuscript, Claire Wren Barbro. And I said, oh, I love this, can you send me more? So she this, that was a picture book, just straightforward picture book which we actually sold to Sourcebooks and is coming out in October called Party Pony. But I said, okay, can you, can you send me three more? So she sent me a non fiction book called Cowboys at the Ballet. She's neither a ballerina nor a cowboy, but you know, that worked. So we, that actually just came out from Simon and Schuster last month. She sent me that one. She sent me a board book about bumblebees, when bumblebees go to sleep, which actually just came out last year from Sourcebooks. So she sent me nonfiction, a board book. And then I think she sent me like a lyrical picture book in prose which is very different from, from the original short, punchy prose she had sent me. So I had a wide variety. And then as you can see, we were actually really successful with all of those, so. Oh, except the lyrical one. I don't think we ever ended up sending that out at all.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Are there any misses that you are ready to mention where you passed on a manuscript that you shouldn't have? Like Harry Potter or something?

[Rachel Orr]

Oh, I don't know. Sometimes after I read a book that's that I really like, sometimes I'll look through my inbox and see do they send it to me?

[Mel Rosenberg]

Oh really?

[Rachel Orr]

Either way is bad because if they did send it to me, then I'm like, oh no, and if they didn't send it to me, then I'm like, why didn't they send it to me?

[Mel Rosenberg]

So I have to look at my inbox and see whether I ever sent you this one.

[Rachel Orr]

I know, I know. I do do that. Or sometimes I'll see that I really like someone's stuff, and then I'll look back and I'll see, oh, they did send to me before. Okay. But Mrs. I don't know. There's nothing.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Rachel, if it's not on the tip of your tongue on Harry Potter, then it's okay.

[Rachel Orr]

Yeah. I will just say, when I was at Harper, that was actually the best. If there was something I really liked and then I couldn't get it through, but then it became successful elsewhere than that, I was like, see? You should have listened to me.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Did you hang a poster in your office?

[Rachel Orr]

I know. I should have. I should have.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So we're coming to the end of our time, and this has been wonderful. Well, the reason is because I want to invite you back for the 20th anniversary. Okay. And so we can't talk about everything today, but is there anything key that we've missed when you message. Message for the troops.

[Rachel Orr]

I think message for the troops is just to keep loving what you do, keep writing, but also remember it is a business. And I think it just goes back to it is a business. And not to get too. Too emotionally attached to everything. Right. Like you should. You should be passionate about it, but you kind of write it, do the best you can, move on. And of course, just keep getting connected with conferences and different opportunities. Like that is always. Is always great. Just getting feedback and just keep going, keep persevering. And the bottom line is one thing I really love that I heard in SCBWI conference in Alabama in March when I was there, is Randy Pink, the YA author. She said, oh, the thing about publishing is it's like an axolotl. It's pink, it's grinning, and it keeps regenerating itself. And I love that because I think that's true. No matter how, you know, it seems like rough times, people are laid off, the economy, AI. But like I said, people are still. They're buying books. So just keep a positive attitude.

[Mel Rosenberg]

That's the. That's the best advice. Keep plugging. I could be. I could be a poster boy for perseverance. I started taking this seriously about 12 years ago. I was rejected 300 times.

[Rachel Orr]

Oh, wow.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Probably by you as well. But I never did give up. And it's very difficult, but I really think that this is the most important thing. Keep writing, but also keep improving and going to meetings and having editors and people look at your. Your, you know, query groups and partners and buddies and cookie groups are so important.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes. And I would say, too, even. Even after you land an agent. I've had a few clients where I took them on. I saw their potential. We were submitting, submitting, submitting. Nothing was getting sold. And then suddenly something clicked. And I could see in their writing, sometimes it was shifting from a picture book to an easy reader format. Sometimes it was just keeping at the picture book format. And now they're unstoppable. So it's been really fun to see.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. So never, ever, ever, ever give up.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, exactly. Ever.

[Mel Rosenberg]

That's great. There should be a story like that. So, everybody, we have to go. We're going to say goodbye to everybody. Rachel, come back into the link so you and I can have a little. And to everybody else, you have been witness to a marvelous person, a wonderful agent, and a great honor for me to interview you today. So, Rachel Orr from Prospect. Prospect Agency. Not Prospect Literary Agency. And I am, before I forget, Mel Rosenberg, the. What am I? I'm the host of the Literary. I'm a host. I always get this wrong. Rachel, I should paint this. I'm the host of the Children's Literature Channel of the New Books Network. I've done that 300 times and I keep forgetting. Rachel, we're going to say goodbye to everybody. Rachel, my great pleasure. And, Rachel, briefly open to submissions to people who are watching us and to everybody else. But make sure you send her a fantastic manuscript.

[Rachel Orr]

Yes, absolutely.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And if you are a sword swallower and your book is not about sword swallowing, don't have to mention it.

[Rachel Orr]

Right.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Thanks. So I'll see you in a minute. Bye. Bye, everybody. Have a great week. Bye.

[Rachel Orr]

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