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Angela Jones and Barbara G. Brents, "Sex Work Today: Erotic Labor in the Twenty-First Century" (NYU Press, 2024)
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Marshall Poe
Hello everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go. Go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [02:07]
Michael Johnston
Hello and welcome. My name is Michael Johnston. This is another episode of New Books in Sociology, a channel on the New Books Network. And Today I have Dr. Bernadette C. Barton from Morehead State University, Dr. Barb Brentz from University of Nevada at Las Vegas, and then Dr. Angela Jones from Stony Brook. Welcome to the show today.
- [02:26]
Dr. Bernadette C. Barton
Thank you.
- [02:26]
Dr. Barb Brentz
Hey, thanks. Awesome.
- [02:30]
Michael Johnston
Today we're discussing sex work. Today, erotic labor in the 21st Century, an NYU Press book published in 2025. And I guess what I want to start off and ask is, how did you come about writing this and doing this collective volume, this edited volume for NYU Press? What inspired the book?
- [02:50]
Dr. Bernadette C. Barton
Well, thank you, Michael, for having us all on the show today. We're all big fans of new books in sociology and really appreciate your contribution to the discipline, having all these conversations with authors. I'm the one that initiated sex work today in that it was my idea, and I reached out to both Angela and Barb to get on board with the project. The original ideas for the project began, you know, in the late 2000s. I was teaching. I proposed and taught a new course called Sex Industry Perspectives at my institution, Morehead State University, just around the time my first book on exotic dancers was coming out. And then I continued to teach that course over the years, usually about once a year. And it's cross listed with criminology and with gender studies, and it sort of attracts a lot of students. And I, you know, have been piecing together the materials for all these years. And finally, I just thought, you know, it'd be so great to put together a text that I could use in the classroom. So I reached out to Angela and Barb, as leading scholars in the field and folks that I know and appreciate who I thought I could work with, and they both responded enthusiastically. And my press, New York University Press, was interested in the project. So we began in 2019, and we ended up working on the project all throughout the pandemic. So this was really our pandemic baby project. We all share a professional and personal commitment to improving the lives of sex workers, but we do not sugarcoat the issues. In this volume, we look at the experiences of sex work through a critique of capitalism, white supremacy, heteropatriarchy, and so forth. And I just want to conclude this question by saying we really appreciate one another as a team. Creating this edited anthology was a different kind of work for me especially, and I appreciated my comrades in arms throughout.
- [04:46]
Michael Johnston
Yeah. And one of the things that I appreciated about this book is that while all three of you are sociologists, I think your work varies just slightly from one to the next in writing. And then this book also looks beyond just a single scope. It broadens it to social, economic, and political frameworks. So that being said, what do you see as being the most significant shift in how erotic labor is structured in the 21st century?
- [05:12]
Dr. Bernadette C. Barton
And.
- [05:12]
Michael Johnston
And how should we, as sociologists, respond to that shift?
- [05:15]
Dr. Bernadette C. Barton
Ooh, that's a big and Important question, and I think the most obvious answer is the Internet. Is the Internet that digital forms of erotic labor have really expanded sex work markets, both by increasing the ways that people can do sex work and changing how sex workers interact with professional client, with clients. But if we look at like changes, changes in technologies and sex work, we, we could just look at porn, for example, and trace the way porno pornography has changed from the late 19th century with photographic images, through silent films, through XXX films, through the birth of Playboy and magazines, and then the, you know, DVD, the video DVDs and then Internet pornography and then tube sites. So we can just see how not only does technology adapt to sex work, but sometimes the sex industry can drive technology. So what we see now is platform based types of sex work. On places like OnlyFans. We also see indirect sex work, which is sex work where there's not any physical contact with the client, happening through camming. Um, we're also seeing right now the rise of sex doll brothels and you know, just chatbot AI kinds of sex work. So sex workers who see clients offline also use the web to advertise, market and sell services online and to vet and screen clients. The web also, as one of the essays explorers in the volume, democratizes erotic labor by allowing those who are locked out of studio porn because of the racism and cissexism and ableism and fatphobia to make a living. So but at the same time, working online requires more administrative labor. It can involve for sex workers managing content on multiple social media and fan sites. But at the same time that there's a democratization of labor, the platforms can also reproduce social inequality through algorithms that shadow ban darker skinned and larger sized workers and other kinds of discriminatory, discriminatory practices. Finally, if we just look at work altogether, we're seeing of course a rise in gig work, contract work, part time and temp work, meaning lower wages, fewer benefits, and less connection between employees. I know that this semester and pretty much every semester that I teach the class on the sex industry, when we talk about these phenomenon, the students bring up the fact that their friends joke about getting an only fans account and getting a sugar daddy. I mean, I would say 75 to 100% of students know someone who has joked about this. So what does that mean? Like, is that a reduction in stigma with sex work work? Is it like some kind of effect from raunch culture? But I actually think it really says more about the labor market than it says about sex work. So I mean, as sociologists, I Think we want to be working toward an economy that reduces income and wealth inequality, that bolsters the safety net, and work on getting universal basic income for everyone. So I also would love to see the pursuit of profit being reframed into a kind of disordered thinking destructive to humankind.
- [08:48]
Michael Johnston
You know, one of the things that I appreciate about the dancer and about the book in general is it doesn't take an either or approach to understanding sex work as either being exploitative or freeing to the individual who participates in it. It's an and both. And in some ways, it's looking at macro structural elements that can be very exploitative, while also looking at the micro perspective that can be very freeing at the individual interactionist approach.
- [09:16]
Dr. Barb Brentz
So.
- [09:16]
Michael Johnston
So, thank you.
- [09:17]
Dr. Bernadette C. Barton
Yes, exactly. So thank you, Michael.
- [09:19]
Michael Johnston
So the next question that I have is, across the book, you draw attention to the diversity of sex workers experience, from cam models and escorts to sugar babies, Sugar Daddies, and OnlyFan creators. How do the three of you go about navigating this complexity without flattening the field or reinforcing hierarchies within the sex industry?
- [09:38]
Dr. Angela Jones
Thanks for this question, Michael. I feel excited to jump in on this one. When you look back, maybe, I don't know, even 30 years ago, there wasn't necessarily a lot public published on sex work. And today there's just such a high volume of scholarly work, work that's coming out of sex worker communities about sex industries. But one of the things that I think we found when you look at a lot of this literature is that it often focuses on one segment of the industry. So if you look at monographs, if you look at published journal articles, a lot of that published work is going to look specifically at full service work at, specifically my own work at camming work, Barb's work, full service work in brothels.
- [10:23]
Dr. Bernadette C. Barton
Right.
- [10:23]
Dr. Angela Jones
And so one of the, I think, really wonderful things about this volume is the way that it takes seriously the wide range of forms of sex work that now exists. And going back to something that Bernadette was just talking about is that in part, a lot of this has to do with the Internet and the ways that the Internet has diversified forms of sex work. But even if you look at some of the language that scholars will now use, such as online sex work, there's a lot of interesting nuance and differences in the structure of those different markets that's important for us to capture. So even if, at the end of the day, all sex workers are gravitating towards these industries for the same reason that anybody seeks out any job, it is work, and they need income. But their experiences within these different industries are going to be very different. And those segments themselves are going to have different structures, different rules of engagement that perform that workers themselves, especially in online markets, are going to carve out individual strategies for navigating those markets. And so, again, one of the strengths of this book, I think, is the way that we're really taking seriously all of these different industries. And one of the things that I really appreciate about the diversity of authors, and especially we have a lot of authors who have lived experience in sex industries. And I think one of the things that a lot of our authors are attentive to is what sex workers call the whorechy. Right. So understanding that, we could argue that all sex workers face, I mean, I would personally argue high degrees of stigma. But I think, as Bernadette again was alluding to before, you know, that the forms of stigma, the forms of structural harm and violence that sex workers endure and resist, are different depending on what segment of the market you're working in. So those distinctions. And as your question implied, Michael, it's important not to flatten those differences because. And again, when we talk about the hierarchy, whether somebody is working in full service markets, right. And they're selling direct services to clients, maybe with a very robust offering of services, is very different than somebody, for example, who is working as a cam model. Right. One of the things that I also want to point out, because I've gotten this question myself a lot in relationship to the camming industry, is that what I think is also important is that when you're thinking about these markets, they're really precarious. And so increasingly, sex workers are hustling. And there's a lot of attention to that across the essays. So sometimes I think that there's this idea. I would often get this question about cam models. Well, this is such a privileged form of labor, and cam models are so privileged. And I'm like, wait, maybe.
- [13:11]
Dr. Bernadette C. Barton
Yes.
- [13:11]
Dr. Angela Jones
And in that a lot of the cam models that I talk to, for example, are working across industries. And so you might also be working as a prodom in a studio. You might also be. You might also have a fan site and be posting content on OnlyFans. And so I think the essays in this book really attend to all of these different types of nuance because again, it's really important to understand, again, what this. What sex workers call this horror key, such that somebody who's working as a prodom, whether online, offline, or both, somebody who's Working in full service markets, somebody who's creating their own porn online, somebody who's working as a sugar baby. Right. That they're all going to have different experiences of labor, different experiences of stigma, different experiences of the various forms of exploitation, racism, cissexism, ableism. That the industry segment in which somebody's working is really going to shape those labor experiences in really profound ways.
- [14:09]
Michael Johnston
So understanding the intersectionality of the situation, I think like Purdue and positionality within the field and how much social capital has. But I think, Angela, what you're picking up on here is to see how dynamic sex work is and how there are a variety of different positions that one can hold within the sex work industry and how one carries themselves out. And I think it becomes very complex when we talk about formality and whether it's an informal position or a formal position, whether it's legal, illegal or legal, or whether it's has been corporatized or not. And all of this is very interesting and very complex. So I agree. Flattening. It would be quite dangerous to see it as being uniform one way.
- [14:54]
Dr. Barb Brentz
Absolutely.
- [14:55]
Michael Johnston
My next question is one of the central themes in the tension between empowerment and exploitation. One of the central themes is the tension between empowerment and exploitation. How do you suggest we move forward beyond this binary and public discourse, especially when it comes to policy and labor rights?
- [15:13]
Dr. Barb Brentz
I'm happy to take that question. This is Barb. Excuse me, I'm getting over this cold. But yeah, so the whole empowerment, exploitation debate, scholarship has moved way, way beyond that. And I think that the one last place that remains is in some policy discourse, especially among those who are advocating to blur the lines between trafficking and sex work, who really want to get rid of the industry. But I think even policymakers are starting to pay attention to this. Certainly people in the field are paying attention to the complexities of people providing services or paying attention to the complexities of this. I think what was so great about our book is that we had voices from both sex workers and academics and sex working academics. And I mean, you know, the line between the two is just sort of less important anymore than it used to be in some ways. But sex workers have, have started really speaking out instead of having to feel like they have to descend the industry every time they speak now are saying, hey, things are going on, things are different. And a lot of the articles in our book speak to that. And like we've said before, it's really a labor issue to a large extent. Yes, there's crime that happens and we have laws against Crime. And because of the stigma, sex workers, when they're being exploited in really bad ways, have a lot of trouble going to the police to deal with it because it gets all thrown into this one category of trafficking. And because in the US what they do is illegal, they get thrown in as criminals themselves and are weighed in that kind of a context. So this, on the one hand, the policy doesn't help us that we're currently at deal with the exploitation that exists because it's a one size fit all kind of an approach to oh, all sex workers must be exploited. What I think the book is pointing to is that we need labor policies for all workers. I mean, on the one hand, we've got sex work that's highly stigmatized, as diverse as it is, as Bernadette and Angela have just talked about. On the other hand, all work is both exploitive and empowering. I mean, being a sociologist is both at times exploitive and at times empowering. And I think the more we start to recognize that in policy, the more we can help the situations where exploitation occurs. This one size fits all. In the book, we have a lot of writing from folks in other countries with different kind of experiences in different legal contexts, and I think that's super helpful. So we need to move thinking about sex work outside of just criminal legal arenas and start thinking about discrimination and other labor policies. And this country is piss poor dealing with labor issues for everybody generally. And I think we can find allies to work together on that sort of thing.
- [19:00]
Dr. Angela Jones
Can I just jump in and add one thing? Because I want to ditto everything that Barb just said. But I also want to say one thing that I think a lot of the authors in the volume underscore so well is something that I think we're continuing to hear so much from sex work. Sex work does not have to be empowering to be a legitimate form of labor or for sex workers to deserve rights. I think that many of us understand politically and strategically why this kind of framing of sex workers empowering happened. Right. To understand the diversity of experiences that workers have. Right. But at the same time, again, it's very important to underscore that sex workers can hate their jobs just the way that a lot of other people hate their jobs. And it doesn't mean that folks are not entitled to the same labor protections as people in so called vanilla or non sexual work. So I just wanted to chime in there.
- [19:58]
Michael Johnston
Oh, and telling somebody to go find a new job isn't the answer to the isn't the solution to the problem. It's interesting that oftentimes the lowest paying jobs are the ones. The people who are working in the lowest income positions are the ones being told to find a new job and the ones in the higher income areas are being told to, well, find a way to enjoy it. So this work draws from a wide variety of scholarship. It seems to me that there's always several brilliant scholars out there who want to contribute to an edited volume. And there's only so much space in an edited volume that allows for so many of those to be produced in the final product. So would you be willing to take a moment and share how you and your colleagues came to produce this final manuscript for the edited volume and cultivating it into a final version that we have in our hands today?
- [20:46]
Dr. Barb Brentz
First, you know, I want to thank my two co authors here who are co editors, who are amazing, well, well known, well connected. And when we started to advertise for this, we had so many abstracts come in that we decided to actually do two books. I think intelligently that got changed and unfortunately we had to drop a number of chapters. But honestly, I think it was. On the one hand, it was a logistical nightmare. And I'll say this for anybody thinking about editing a book like this to keep track of everyone who'd submitted and what stages these are all in and that. But it was relatively easy to sort of tell the difference between ideas that we felt like would develop into an interesting paper and those that weren't quite worked out yet. But we ended up initially, if memory serves me right, accepting a large percentage of the papers that were submitted. And it's in the course of editing and developing that some began to drop out. But as it all, you know, we were, we were lost in the weeds and, and, but as it all started coming together and we started organizing, getting to the final drafts, I know I felt this. Holy smokes. This is going to be a. This is an amazing book. And I can say that because I'm only the editor. I'm not the one writing a lot of this stuff. I was just blown away by the quality and the ways in which it all hung together to, to present a picture, a snapshot, I guess, of, of what sex work is like today because it came from so many different people and so many different perspectives, you know, so I am. We had a great editor. Eileen Kalish at NYU Press is awesome. And these two are not only brilliant writers, they're brilliant editors. I don't know, I can't say enough about this was, this was an amazing experience, and I'm really thrilled and proud and happy to have been a part of it. Yeah.
- [23:12]
Michael Johnston
And one of the things that I noticed about this book is not only was it sex work, but it also looked at the intersection of society. And you considered race, gender, sexuality, and class as being structural forces in the erotic labor market. So how did these intersections shape this book and also shape even the larger industry as to who is seen as legitimate, desirable, or even safe in the industry today?
- [23:38]
Dr. Angela Jones
Thanks for this question, Michael. That's a really important one. And in some ways, I'll also kind of speak to the question that you and Barb were just talking about when we were editing the volume. And so also in mind, people who might be listening, considering editing a volume, I think for us, we, you know, we have such a high, you know, volume and such a wonderful reception and response to the call for papers. We had a few core goals. We wanted a book that was intersectional. We wanted papers, we wanted essays that were using intersectional frameworks. We wanted papers that were using transnational frameworks and looking at connections across the world. Right. Thinking about the way that capital flows across the world, and especially given that we're talking about sex industries are transnational economies. Right. And so we had these very specific goals. And again, one of them was looking for essays and people who were really applying intersectional frameworks with precision. You know, Bernadette set us off talking about kind of classroom experiences. And I know you're talking to three people right now who are highly engaged teachers. And when I teach my course on sex work, you know, I would always tell my students, understanding sex work and sex workers, labor experiences, we must do this through an intersectional frame. And understanding the way that, as you noted, race, gender, sexuality, class, ability, nationality, the way all of these different aspects of our subjectivity show up, play a really profound role in shaping, whether it's experiences of exploitation or pleasure or empowerment that, you know, going back to when we were talking about this kind of exploitation empowerment binary, you know, I think there's a lot of research that suggests, you know, who's more likely to describe their work and their sex work as being pleasurable. Right. And how does your race, the racism that you face, the. In institutionalized cissexism, and the way that trans misogyny or the way that misogynoir shows up in these industries is really important for understanding a whole set of outcomes. Wage disparity. Right. We now have. There's chapters in our volume. There's now, I would say, pretty wealth of empirical data that shows us that race and gender in particular shape how much people are earning, the rates that full service providers are charging, how much people are making on platforms like OnlyFans. You know, I always say Horatio Alger dies hard in a lot of these online industries. I think there's increasingly this idea that anybody's just going to show up on any of these platforms, you know, and walk away making, you know, lots and lots of money. And sure, a worker's, I don't know, ingenuity and innovation certainly plays a role in how well they do, but so does their race and their gender and their age and their body size. I love that there are essays in a couple of essays in our volume that deal with disability and how ableist. Right. And how ableism shapes these markets, shapes vanilla markets. I'm thinking of a specific chapter on body size and fat phobia. So it's really important to be thinking about how all those intersections shape people's experiences of labor. Again, whether it's in relationship to their wages, the availability of work, how much time they spent working, especially in online industries. There's a lot of talk about workers, like other gig workers, really searching for autonomy. So thinking just about how these factors shape, you know, who is putting in 60 hours a week and who's putting in 10, who's facing forms of violence. Right. So they're really important intersections to understand when we're thinking about people's experiences in these industries.
- [27:37]
Michael Johnston
Well, it could produce meaning for a variety of different people. I think one of the things that I worry about in my classroom is when I talk about something, I have the student who's like, well, why aren't they talking about me? Or worse yet, this couldn't be me. It never could be me. I would never be subject to something like this. And it shows the possibilities. Introduction to criminology is one of the classes where I bring this up. It could be you who could be a criminal. Well, anybody given the potential opportunity that, you know, given the right situation. So I appreciate that this opens up the door for giving meaning to almost anybody who reads it. Barb, you had something to add, I think.
- [28:12]
Dr. Barb Brentz
Yeah, I just want to underscore what Angela has said and especially underscore the point about disability. I think sociologists have given short shift to the impacts of disability in some arenas, especially with sex work, and it has an impact in the labor market generally. So the specifics in these articles that are in this book are good in that way. And this also speaks to some, you know, we are sociologists, and as sociologists, we're concerned about inequalities and their array of inequalities. And I think that in the field of sex work, we haven't paid, especially at the policy arena, enough attention to these broader themes that are core to sociological research and teaching. And these are. I mean, I think in a lot of ways this book is good not just for people interested in the sex industry, but also for anybody wanting to teach the impact of inequality across the labor market in different jobs. Just sex work is just one example of this. The other thing I wanted to say was that going back to putting together an edited volume, we didn't. On the one hand, it wasn't just that we said, okay, we want something on sex work and we want to be inclusive. But as we said, it's also that we wanted to have. Have these inequalities and intersectionalities be central themes in it. And that's what we spent a lot of time pushing our authors on. It was sort of a natural pushing from, for most authors. But having that kind of a theme helped bring this edited collection, I think, together in a lot of important ways. So I'll just say anybody who's trying to put together an edited volume, a good theme helps. Yeah.
- [30:12]
Dr. Angela Jones
And I was just gonna add Barb, I think in terms of anybody who might be listening, again, you don't have to be teaching a course on sex work or sexuality for this book to be relevant, certainly to people teaching courses about work and labor. But I was also thinking about the book's kind of intersectional contributions around gender. You know, even if I look, for example, at the literature, the excellent literature and sex work, you know, if there's so much focus and even just in public discourses to cisgender women in these industries, and I would say, especially in empirical research, there's a lot of focus on trans women too. But what you're going to find across these essays is that there's really a lot of attention to the fluidity of gender. And so there are papers that include the experiences of non binary workers, people who are trans masculine, people who are trans feminine. And I think that that could have a lot of value for people teaching gender studies more broadly.
- [31:09]
Michael Johnston
Yeah, there's a whole, I think, maybe even ethics and morality and something like that with religion, society. I mean, there's so many different perspectives that can be brought from the topics to bring into the chapter material of any given course. So that's one of the things that I like about the intersectional approach to this edition. Well, thank you again for being on your books in sociology to talk about sex work today, erotic labor in the 21st century. Thank you, Bernadette. Thank you, Angela. And thank you, Barb, for being here today. I am all out of questions, but there's one dying question that I have to ask you before you all leave to me today. And it can either be on the next big project that the three of you are working on together for another edited volume, or if you're working on something independently. I'd love to hear what you're working on these days, Bernadette. Sure, go ahead.
- [32:02]
Dr. Bernadette C. Barton
Sure. I'm working on two projects right now. I just submitted a book to the University Press of Kentucky that's exploring the events that happened in 2015 in Rowan county with the county clerk, Kim Davis, who refused to issue marriage licenses. So I have a book project that looks at the activism that took place and her response and looks at religious freedom. So that book's really timely. And I also have a set of interview data exploring what trans people, trans and non binary people, how they experience gender alignment. So that is kind of in the. I have the data collected, but I'm in the progress of sort of sorting through that data, and that's also a very timely project.
- [32:44]
Michael Johnston
Angela, what are you up to these days?
- [32:46]
Dr. Angela Jones
Thanks for asking. So I'm really excited. I'm actually in the copy editing stages waiting on mock ups for a new book cover for my new forthcoming trade book with Seal, which is an imprint of Hachette. And the new book is called Sex in the Transformative Social Power of Our Erotic Lives. And as much as I love publishing for academic audiences, this one feels really exciting for me. I mean, listen, I hope that folks are still gonna sign it in their classes and that academics is still gonna read it, but really, to be writing for a mainstream audience feels really awesome. And I think this was something that was also really exciting about sex work today, was that, you know, I think the accessibility of our volume was really important. I know that didn't come up today, but I think having short, crisp essays that are written intentionally in an accessible style is really important. Anyway, so I'm over the moon. I'm really excited about this book. This book, there's quite a bit of autoethnographic content in it. There's a lot of science in it. I think there's things for lots of folks. Folks to love, but it's probably the most vulnerable thing that I've written.
- [34:02]
Michael Johnston
I know somebody who you could talk to about that. If you want to. But think about it. And I'd love to have you on the show to talk about the book once it's out.
- [34:10]
Dr. Barb Brentz
Thanks.
- [34:11]
Michael Johnston
And Barb, what are you up to these days?
- [34:13]
Dr. Barb Brentz
Well, I recently retired, but I seem to be busier than ever. I'm in the middle of. We just published this year another book called Voicing Sex Workers, Sexual Violation and Legal Consciousness Across National Contexts. And it's a project with scholars in the UK and in New Zealand. And we surveyed sex workers and legal personnel, lawyers and it's all about an attempt to try to compare the impact of these different legal systems on sex workers abilities to voice consent in the course of their, their work. And so we've got the book came out, it's open access with Paul Grave. So I would urge anyone listening to look it up. Voicing Consent and then we're publishing a number of articles that that book actually only used a portion of the data that we have. So we're in the midst of publishing articles on that and trying to make the data available to policy makers and other folks that are interested in evidence based policy. And in addition to that, I've got a number of other projects going. I don't even remember what they are, but one of the ones that I'm really most excited about is I'm going to copy Angela. I hope it's in such the early stages that I, I'm like speaking it so that it comes true. But I want to, I want to write a historical. But I think the history of the development of this current policy situation regarding sex work is so interesting because a lot of our, our thoughts about what pleasure is and isn't historical roots as we came to a society that disciplined human action into this is work and this is play. And that kind of separation has a lot to do with our feelings about sexuality and erotic life. So I want to, I want to write a history on that and I want it to be trade. And given that I'm trying to pretend to be retired, I think it will take take a number of years to play with this and enjoy history, which is one of my favorite side projects.
- [36:44]
Michael Johnston
Yeah, it's interesting. I look forward to seeing that book once it's in because even when you talk about it, I think of things going back to the one drop rule and things like that, which weren't really necessarily about sex as much as it was about labor and as much as it was about ownership of property and things like that. So. But as you write these books, please let me know if you'd like to be on the show again for all of these projects sound wonderful, and I enjoy reading all of your work, so thank you, thank you, thank you for.
- [37:18]
Dr. Barb Brentz
Allowing everyone an opportunity to share their exciting work.
- [37:23]
Michael Johnston
Well, thank you. And again, this has been another episode of New Books in Sociology, a channel on the New Books Network, and I look forward to talking with my audience again here soon. Have a great day.
- [37:48]
Marshall Poe
And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [38:03]
Dr. Angela Jones
Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
- [38:06]
Marshall Poe
Cut the camera. They see us.
- [38:08]
Michael Johnston
Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty. Liberty.
- [38:11]
Dr. Barb Brentz
Liberty.
- [38:12]
Michael Johnston
Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.