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Annahid Dashtgard, "Fire and Silence: A Roadmap for BIPOC Leaders" (Dundurn Press, 2026)
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- [00:02]
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- [01:14]
Anahid Deshgard
I was groomed to become one of his wives. This week on Disorder, the podcast that orders the disorder, an Epstein survivor tells
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New Books Network Announcer
me her story and what justice looks like for her.
- [01:27]
Anahid Deshgard
I want to see action and I am demanding action. Do not just talk the talk. You need to start walking the walk now.
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New Books Network Announcer
It's one of the most powerful interviews I've ever done in over 20 years as a journalist.
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Anahid Deshgard
Search Disorder in your podcast app to listen right now. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:50]
Holly Gattery
Hello everyone and welcome to nbn. I am your host, Holly Gattery and I am thrilled to be joined today by Anahid Deshgaard to talk about her incredibly powerful new book, Fire and Silence, which is a roadmap to leadership for BIPOC people. Welcome to the show. Anahid.
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Anahid Deshgard
I am so happy to be here.
- [02:17]
Holly Gattery
Oh I am excited to have you and I can't wait to get into this book. I so enjoyed your your online launch and the energy and power and love in that launch. But we will get to all the good stuff. Let's listen to what our audience needs right now which is a little bit more about you in this book. So this book is has necessary tactics for BIPOC leaders to navigate from survive to thrive in these politically fraught times. Organizations need strong leadership to help navigate uncertainty and complexity. A crucial yet overlooked group of leaders are also racial minorities who often move into positions of influence with little support or acknowledgement. If you're one of these leaders, or hope to be, this book is specifically for you. Fire and Silence offers a roadmap to leadership using compassion instead of trauma, authority without victimhood and strength inclusive of vulnerability in ways that are fair to all. From the trenches of social activism to coaching boardroom executives, Anahi Jasher offers proven strategies in real world stories alongside practical tips and tools to support growing numbers of BIPOC leaders in achieving the impact and recognition they so richly deserve without having to sacrifice who they are in the process. Anahi Deshgart is a CEO of I Panama leadership of Racial Justice Consulting firm. Over the last two decades she has worked with hundreds of organizations and leaders to create a more inclusive workplace. Her first book, Breaking the A Memoir of Race, Rebellion and Reconciliation, met Ray Reviews Toronto is her chosen home Anahi, let's dive right in. Where did this book start for you?
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Anahid Deshgard
Oh, what a great question. I mean, you know, the longest answer would be, I mean all the way back in the bones of childhood of the experiences of after immigrating into a very small white conservative town, being one of the minority of people of color and experiencing racism and discrimination exclusion for many years, that really went into a place of trauma for me. And as you said, I wrote about that in the first book, the memoir and those experiences like for many of us, really informed my chosen work in later life and over the last 20 years and beyond. Certainly since I've been at the helm of ANIMA Leadership and we work within organizations, it was a pattern of racialized and other minoritized folks coming to me at lunches or breaks or at the end of the day or of an in person session. Back when we were doing a lot of mostly in person sessions and sharing their experiences that catalyzed me about five years ago, setting up a BIPOC leader lab and I've been running that for four or five years and that's been an incredibly powerful space where those stories, shared patterns and stories have really come to the fore. And I would say the most immediate catalyst for the book was after Trump got elected for the second time. And I just thought, you know, we have so many resources in place for women in the workplace, mostly white women, let's be honest. But there is very little to support the particular experiences that racialized leaders have. And I'm going to put this out in the world because it is needed now more than Ever. And so that is. That was. You know, it kind of lit a fire under me. And I just wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and got this out in. It came out a month ago.
- [06:03]
Holly Gattery
One thing I loved about it is, while there are very practical tips and there's a lot of guidance in this book, it also had that deeply personal memoir feel. And I was wondering if you could talk about balancing those two. I mean, you could call them distinct narrative voices, but with you, I feel like it's rooted in care and compassion, and it feels like almost the same thing for you.
- [06:29]
Anahid Deshgard
Yeah, I think that the measure for me, of someone's, I guess, expertise or knowledge is not how much they know on an intellectual level, but how deeply have they walked their talk. And I think it's also part of us decolonizing the leadership and literary canon, which is, you know, back to enlightenment. You know, the idea that intellect is superior to emotion, the mind is superior to the body. And then that being an argument that really sort of allowed the colonization and the destruction of many indigenous feminized communities that were rooted in emotion and body and connection. You know, a life philosophy of interconnectedness. And personally, I only trust authors who talk about their own experiences with what they're writing, because otherwise, I just feel like. I mean, it would have been easier for me to have written an intellectual book where I'm quoting research and talking about best practices, and I'm in a room and I saw this person struggle with that. But that means that I'm above the fray. And I. As I'm kind of talking about. I think that's the whole problem that we're dealing with in Western, white, dominant, capitalist, informed society. I am. I have done. You know, I feel like I do have a measure of expertise, but that comes not just from what I know. It comes from really having worked my shit. And so it really felt important to write from a personal perspective, to let people know, like, hey, I'm at a certain point on this journey, but I've also walked this journey. Every part of this book has come out of tears and blood and bone. And I want you to feel that so that you not just get effective tips and strategies, but your experience is informed, that you can feel visible and know that it's possible to make it through. And I'll just finish. I got an email with an acquaintance of mine, a client, someone I'm connected to, and they sent me this. I'll just exert it about a couple weeks after the book came out. And it was the most Meaningful thing I could have received. And they said they hadn't even put your books on the shelf yet. It was still in boxes. I bought it anyway. I sat in my car holding it. And I don't know how to explain it, but. But it felt like the book could hold my pain. And hale that. I just felt like if I get nothing else, that that is the reason that I put this book out there.
- [09:25]
Holly Gattery
I. I love that. I love that answer so much, I got goosebumps. I. I had a similar experience, and I also had the experience reading your first book, Breaking the Ocean. And, I mean, that's where I kind of became an anahid fangirl. And it was so close to my heart, the voice. And there's. There's like, a justified anger and wanting to make things change, but it's just also the empathy and compassion, and not only for racialized, marginalized people, but for everyone who is trying to do their best. And when we were in your launch and also while reading your book, I remember thinking about how I have been in several bipoc spaces, and something has been said along the lines of obviously paraphrasing in multiple spaces, not all of them, where somebody has said something like, okay, this is where we can feel safe, which is a good thing, but then added bashing white people. And it's not just because I am mixed with white, but just in general. I found that to be like. It felt like somebody had punched me in the chest. And your book talks about that. And in the launch, somebody asked a question and you did answer about, like, when somebody. When. When a. When you're in a space and let's say a white person makes you feel uncomfortable or devalued or delegitimized or unseen. And your response led with not only compassion to the person voicing this question, but compassion to everybody. And I was wondering if you could talk about that as, like, compassion. And, you know, seeing us means seeing everybody. And. And, you know, everybody is a victim of colonial mindsets, and everyone's a victim of white supremacy. Everybody, whether white people choose to see it or not. They are. And I. I found that so incredibly powerful. But also it felt like somebody. Like, if somebody punched me in the chest when I was in those meetings in those bipox spaces, I felt like your book, like somebody had, like, given me a trach tube and I could breathe again.
- [11:39]
Anahid Deshgard
Oh, that's. I appreciate hearing that. Yeah. I think that, you know, it would have been easy again, it would have been easier to write a version of this Book that was rah, rah, rah, racialized people, minoritized people have to rise up and own their pain and conquer the world in the workplace in X, Y and z ways. But that is not the book I wrote. The whole last section is, you know, I think it's the trickiest for people that have not or are not willing to confront their own hurts is about how we change the rules of the game. And how we change the rules of the game is really about, especially if we're in positions of influence, taking the responsibility to separate our own wounding from what is happening in the present moment. And it's not that we don't hold white leadership or white dominant systems to account, but it means how do we hold them to account in a way that we are not dehumanizing others, white people in the same ways that we have experienced ourselves. Because if we do that, Jole, what ends up happening is we sow the seeds of oppression for the next generation. And to me, the end game of leadership, of addressing oppression isn't that, oh, we have more racialized and indigenous folks in positions of leadership and then we white people or other minoritized folks are now on the bottom rungs of the ladder and experiencing what we experienced back then. The end game for me is that we develop enough awareness and do the inner work so that we actually create systems where, you know, people take on different roles, but everybody's roles are respected for what we bring to the table. And we are not treating each other in these extractive, transactional, wild one upmanship, I'm better than you, you are less than me ways. And so the last section of the book is really addressing what we need to do to change, I call it change the rules of the game and use power differently than we ourselves experienced. And in fact, if it makes sense, just read a short excerpt from the chapter in that section. One of the chapters in that section that's about using power.
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Holly Gattery
Well, I'd love that, thank you.
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Anahid Deshgard
Well, actually, you know what I'm going to just read, I'm going to do it this way. I'm going to read it that each chapter begins with a story. Like as you said, I think story is the if theory is the tool of, I think like, you know, this divisive top down culture that we're part of, then story is, I think one of the ways we speak back to that. Because story is about connecting head with heart and story is about bridging me with you. And so I'll just start with this. Each chapter starts with a story, and I'm going to read the one that starts a chapter on forgiveness because it really speaks to that moment that you described of being in this room of racialized folks. And it's so easy to weaponize our anger into a form of resentment, hatred or revenge against white people, which is antithetical to the goal of undoing oppression. So this story. A few years ago I was brought in to offer a two day equity training for a group of union leaders, 80% white identifying and 20% BIPOC. We went through the full first day without incident, in which people were connecting, listening and actively applying how bias and identity affect their work. Day two went on to address systemic racism. Halfway through the statistics, a senior white woman shared that it was heartbreaking to know the history of different racialized groups and then proceeded to break down in tears. Right away, one of her black for many of us that have been in these environments, this is a very familiar pattern. Right away, one of her black colleagues in the room responded, this is not news to us. Spare us your tears, please. Other BIPOC staff darted around the room, nodded in agreement. The white woman froze, as did the other white people in the room. We were right in the trenches of where so many conversations about racism get stuck. You are wrong, culpable and ignorant and we are right, justified and the experts on this. Of course there's validity to the reaction of the BIPOC participants. Too often when the realities of racism are expressed, the feelings of white people get focused on while the impact on bipoc people is again overshadowed. But how such moments are handled determines whether there's bridging or breaking. What would have, what would it have been like if the response to the white woman instead had been I hear that it's hard for you, but please know that for many of us in this room who are non white, this isn't new information. We've lived this reality for years. That response communicates the same boundary without shaming. But the white woman who said it forgiveness is the ability to remember the humanity of others, especially when we feel they've wronged us. Perhaps acknowledging that we in their shoes, may do no better.
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Holly Gattery
That was so incredible. Again, goosebumps. I mean, a lot of this book, a lot of your writing in general, I mean you've written other books, has the same effect on me because it's acknowledging all of our multitudes, complexities, complications. And it's not oversimplifying how difficult any of it is because I, I know that I want to feel angry I mean, I've. I've had surgery because of things that white people have said to me to look different and. And look less Iranian because of horrible things that were said to me, especially when I was younger and a teenager. I want to. I want to feel angry. I do. But, I mean, I. It, as you said, it's antithetical to. And what I believe. What I believe. And then I hadn't put it into the eloquent wording that you had, which was, I think, where a lot of racialized indigenous people might read this and just be nodding because it's maybe something we feel, but nothing that we've been able to articulate as well, and with much evenness and thoughtfulness and incisiveness as you have managed. So I do want to thank you for that, because just describing that scene when you said, you know, I remember reading that and thinking, oh, this, this, this, this white woman, just be quiet. Why would you say that? And then the. The black person's response, I was like, why would you say that? Like both of you, I felt like I'd been slapped twice in quick succession. And your very even response to it was so refreshing. So my next question for you is about that. Is about your ability to bring that evenness to play in at least your outward representation and expression. Like, what do you do with the rage you must feel?
- [19:01]
Anahid Deshgard
Yeah, I mean, I. And in fact, I. Well, you were there at the launch, and I think it is one of the questions, because nuance. I mean, we live in a. We're in a time, especially now, where everything is so polarized. You're on one side or you're on the other. And one of the questions that came up in the launch when I mentioned the word forgiveness is, well, isn't that letting white people, white systems off the hook for the patterns that happen over and over again to me or to other folks of color? And the answer is no. Forgiveness or, you know, isn't about. It actually isn't about the other person. It's about liberating ourselves from carrying the burden of their response. It's about us working through our anger so we can humanize the other side. So when we do act and hold them accountable, we're actually able to do it in a more impactful way. I mean, often hole. My first response when ignorance comments are made in a session or after the session or in a client meeting is. Or in other spaces, God knows, is anger and sometimes even rage. But I know enough by now that that first response, as Loretta Ross, the Incredible. Activist, US Activist, founder of the whole reproductive justice movement, said, my first response is often the trauma response is my second response that is more impactful. And the second response, the difference is that I figure out what is getting touched inside me that isn't just about this person's comment, but is a whole history that is getting triggered. And that I can regulate myself so that when I respond, it's coming from a place of strategy, from humanizing the other side, rather than just lashing out and dehumanizing them because it feels good. And ultimately, when I can operate from that place, that second response, it just has more impact because it's more inclusive. I'm actually embodying what it is I want the other person to do for me. And so it's less energy for me because I'm less invested in them agreeing with me or doing something immediately. And it has more impact. So. But it's not the easiest thing. And it is, you know, I'll just. I'm gonna. But I do think especially for those of us. Well, I don't want to say especially, but for those of us, including those of us that are racialized or minoritized and have been wounded for so many years by the misuses of power, you know, because we know what it's like, we have almost additional responsibility when we get into positions of power, positions of influence, to use power differently. This is. The other little piece I want to offer, is from the chapter on using power. Well, thriving is a practice. It starts with learning to get comfortable and feel empowered in our own authority. Feeling entitled to inhabit authority without over justifying, over explaining, double guessing, apologizing, holding back, coddling, or other undermining behaviors. And can be challenging for many leaders of color because we're taught early on to trust the instincts of others over our own, namely white authority figures. But when we occupy leadership roles, we have daily opportunities to adapt and develop our ability to use power well. Choosing the right form of power at the right time with the right people. Those of us intimately familiar with a misuse of power are best positioned to model how to use power constructively in the ways we use our influence to advocate for, support and lift up other folks of color. And the ways in which we prevent any person or group being depicted or treated as inferior. As we look into a future full of all kinds of uncertainty, the ability to model how to use power for collective benefit rather than just individual gain is more important than ever. Are we in relationship or controlling our relationships? Are we consulting our people or dominating them? Are we good at creating accountability or does the most outspoken person or group win? Our answer to these questions confers more dignity to people or strips them of it. We can reinforce or we can repair how power is too often misused by those in positions of authority. So listen up, folks. Learn to recognize the power you have access to and use it well. And man, is that hard. It is an ongoing practice. But, you know, I will just say lastly, I think one of the things that helps me stick to the practice, Jole, is that I know a lot about race and gender because I've lived it and I. I've studied it. But when I was first learning about trans identities, like, you know, a decade ago or years ago, it was constantly humbling how much I didn't know the language to use, what pronouns meant, how to frame introducing myself with the right pronouns, how to frame issues in a way that was trans, inclusive. And I think none of us have the territorial rights to understanding all forms of marginalization. I'm constantly humbled by my own learning around identities that I am less familiar with, what it means to be sick or Jewish, and the forms of antisemitism that happen and Islamophobia I'm a little bit more acquainted with. But I'm just saying it's constantly humbling. I don't. None of us. So it helps me in teaching people who don't know about racism, because God knows, people are not taught this in school. And there's so few places in our society where people can learn without being punished or shamed. And so again, when we're in positions of leadership as racialized, minoritized folks, we gotta do this in a way, we gotta do this better, for God's sake. I know it's not easy, but yes, we can, because we know what it's like to not get it right.
- [25:20]
Holly Gattery
I love what you say about humility. I find it's so important. And I mean, on a daily basis, I'm saying to myself, and I'm saying to other people, I need you to humble yourself on a cosmic level.
- [25:33]
Anahid Deshgard
That's a T shirt slogan.
- [25:37]
Holly Gattery
Whatever you think is so important right now, or whatever, you know, false God you're holding up as the pinnacle of your happiness, I need you to humble yourself. And again, I work in publicity, so that's probably why. But I. I also have children. I'm all. I'm also me. I again, I have to tell myself this as much as anybody else. I was also thinking about how reading this book and, you know, full disclosure, I didn't read it in the order you wrote it. So I do have a question about that now. I feel like I very often have to open books and read them start to finish. So when I have poetry or essays or a book that's broken up like yours, I take clothes pleasure in disrupting the order that's been laid out for me. So I do have a question about how you structured the book. But reading the book, I got an email recently and it was from a white author who wanted me to do something for them and was upset I had not done it. To be clear, I'm not like, this person is not my client. I don't even know them. But they were, they were very upset with me. And I write that I hadn't done something they thought I should do to further their career. And I'm glad I read this book because number one, I just didn't reply. Like, no intention of ever replying. But if I'd let my anger lead, I would have replied and I would have set in motion a chain of energy. I would have felt compelled to feel follow. But by releasing myself from any obligation to even acknowledge this, I. It was such a. It was a kinder thing to do for me and ultimately it was probably a kinder thing to do for the author because it would not have been as justified as it is as justified as my rage is. I mean, one of the things I'm very proud to be the co chair of the League of Canadian Poets BIPOC Committee and one, one of the things that we discuss in that space and many bipoc spaces I'm in is how a lot of racialized, marginalized indigenous individuals are constantly asked for free labor. Yes, constantly. And it like disproportionately too. And often a lot of us are still in the workforce as well when we're being asked these things. And often it's by demographics who are not in the workforce anymore. And it feels like, how do we deal with this? And that's exactly what this exchange. What was an exchange? Because I didn't reply. But what this was for me. And I was thinking, thank goodness I read Anahid's book because it made me less reactive and I wanted to be reactive. I almost felt like a gleeful glimmer of Vigo the Carpathian vis a vis Ghostbusters 2 evil ripple through me. And I had to like, wash it. I was like, nope, you're not doing that. You're not going full zigo right now. And I was so glad that I'd read Your book, because I actually feel better about it. And it, like I said it would have taken up and as reading your book showed me, it takes up more energy. It's carrying around grudges and not offering grace is really draining.
- [28:58]
Anahid Deshgard
Yeah, it hurts us as the, like you said, the kind of, first and foremost, it hurts us because we carry it around and it affects the body physiology and all that stuff. And you know, Holly, I wanted to say, you were talking earlier about, I think that I work a practice of humility, maybe because I'm a publicist or this or that, but I want to say, I think part of the reason, as a poet, I think you kind of, it's part, it seems one of the tools you kind of have to. Because poetry is this like, transmorphing of pain and suffering and seeing that everybody is subject to that in different ways and forms. So I think that your foot in the poetry camp gives you that unique perspective where you don't, you can see the other side as well. Not that all sides are equal, but that you can, it's harder to be polarized. And I, it's really powerful.
- [30:00]
Holly Gattery
I also have to give complete credit as well to your book to David Suzuki and I, I signed up for one of the kind of mini lessons on how to talk to people about climate change. And what, what do you do when people come at you with, well, I don't believe it exists. And you know, I mean, like, what do you do? And one of the lessons I learned was you, you don't download your superior intellect onto this person. Ask questions, ask why, you know, and, and it's difficult though. It's, it's, it's, it's difficult because, you know, like I said, I do understand why people are angry. And I, I, I 100 understand. And it feels like such a justified righteous anger sometimes that it, it, it did take me a while to deprogram myself. And I really do credit your book with a major step for me in, in the right direction, which, which does lead to one of my final questions, and that is about the structure of the book because again, full disclosure, I did not read this book in order. So I read the last part, for instance, first, which maybe puts me at the disadvantage where something would be very obvious to me if I read it in the sequence you presented it in. But I was wondering how you thought about structuring the book and if there's any, I mean, I'm sure there is reasons that you can give us about why you chose to put certain parts first. And then end with other parts.
- [31:27]
Anahid Deshgard
Yeah, that's exactly, exactly. Well, I had initially there were, I don't know, something like 49 mini chapters. And so part of the first major round of edits was really trying to figure out what are topics that are unique to this audience that are not going to be talked about in other leadership books. So I whittled that down. But really the through line for me was reflecting on my own journey, what I know about. What I know about leadership trajectories in general, because we do a lot of leadership development stuff through anima and really charting it out as a journey. And so the first part of the book is identifying workplace racism, because we can assume those of us that have done a lot of work around racism, that it's obvious. It is not obvious. One of the biggest surprises for me doing this work, work and workplaces is how even talking about basic patterns of racism that happen, for example, you know, people of color being often scapegoated or undermined or infantilized or more easily dismissed, how those basic patterns are unknown to folks. And so the first part of the book is really giving people a language and signposts for what's going on so that they don't feel like they're the problem. The second part is really talking about strategies to navigate, like, how do you influence rather than just speak, what is the importance of purpose and how do you know if you're in the right role? The third part is, which I think is really is not contained in many leadership books, but I think is the most essential thing to having influence is the importance of healing and knowing where we ourselves have been wounded and being able to separate past from present, individual from the system like that. And what that, you know, coming to terms with racial trauma and what our triggers are and what it means to work with emotions in the body. And then the last part is how do we change the rules of the game and have impact? Which is, like you said, it's some of the deeper, almost spiritual stuff. And I don't mean that in a religious sense, but I think any people that have really change systems throughout history, like Mandela or. I don't want to just go through the usual pantheon, but any of them or just individuals that we know in our own backyards have a deeper spiritual grounding. And it really is like a coming, a reckoning with ourselves and community and what we want to ultimately the future we want to leave behind. So the last stage of the book is really like talks about impact and going deeper and thinking about the end game of all this and you know, the invisible, like power in the multi, multiple forms of power. So it is a journey. But you know, I think ultimately we go where we need to go as well.
- [34:23]
Holly Gattery
Yeah, definitely. And I think what's something that's really interesting to me about the book too is when I lost the book for a bit after I got in, it turned out that my husband had taken it to read on lunch break in his car. My husband, the white guy. The white guy, the poor guy. Is that how he's known? Yes, it is how he's known, but he was reading it and he was getting, he was having takeaways and it was, we were actually talking about how he notices that when I talk about being mixed race, for instance, I'm very specific that this is the way I mixed and this is the experience I'm going to talk to. But I don't want to, I don't necessarily feel qualified to talk about other mixed race experiences because while there is, I suppose, a certain universal grounding of mixed race experience, everybody's mixed race experience will be so different based on a variety of factors and ethnicities and you know, you know, just your, the demo, your demographic, your socioeconomic class, all this stuff, it's going to be so different. And he was saying something that you said earlier, which is like he felt humbled, but humbled by. He considered himself so well versed because of again, being married to Viggo the Carpathian, you know, and how much I talk about this sort of thing, but also realizing how much I don't talk about and how much I don't, because I don't know. And how much he thought he had a really solid handle on certain things because of his proximity to me, but understanding that basically I don't have a solid things and that I have one experience and there are so many he has to think about and he should be thinking about as well. So I really want to encourage any people that in the audience who are thinking, oh, you know, this is for bipoc leaders. No, but it's not. It's for anybody, I would argue, who wants to make their workplace, their world, their house, their communities better. So my next question for you, Anahid, is yeah.
- [36:26]
Anahid Deshgard
Because I do think it can be illuminating for white folks and other demographics as well. And I just want to say your husband I've met is so lovely and what a lovely response. Just even the impetus to pick up the book and come back to you and reflect back some of the things that he learned, like What a. Such a beautiful micro moment of what we need a much other. Like many other levels.
- [36:50]
Holly Gattery
Well, yeah. And I, I do if, if Matthew listens to this, I, I do want to point out that he did not take the poetry book I recommended. He take. But he did take that which I did not offer as I was reading. So I, there was an accusation of him colonizing my TBR pile. But that's fine. I was like, I was, like I was, I was reading that. You just took it from me. How dare you. But he was interested, of course. Like he, he didn't get to make it to. He wasn't at your launch. He didn't even make it to my launch because he was 6. He didn't get to talk to you then. But yes he was. He, he's, he's read your first book and he, he was interested in this one too. So I have now officially lost the book to the his glove compartment for his lunch break reading. Which is fine. But my next question for you is how can someone become involved? Because again with you specifically with Anima, beyond buying this book because when I was in your launch, which was a virtual launch, it was such energy and I have never encountered energy like that in a virtual space before and it's electric. And I think anyone who can should get involved. How can someone do that? What's an easy first step?
- [38:06]
Anahid Deshgard
Well, myself and Shaquille who co founded Anima back in the day, I think the Anima kind of and we do have a community and we come from both of us backgrounds of community organizing and our first love or passion in doing this work was never about money, it was social change. And I think that. And relationship building and I think that that DNA is in every like all of what we do and part of our commitment to community and providing those spaces that I talked about earlier where people can come and feel included no matter how much they or whether they're going to get it right is we always have free offerings. We hold a monthly Anima Cafe on different topics. It's an hour long webinar. People can come and we always have open conversation as part of that. And again anybody is welcome to bring anything they're dealing with and can be. It's a space of learning, not perfectionism. So we have those monthly, monthly things we often. We also have other free offerings like so people can go to the website Anima. It's a N as In Nancy, I am as in mother a leadership.com and you know, I and then people often like 90% of our clients are people that have like been with us and come to offerings like for, you know, 15 years or 10 years. And that's incredibly meaningful because there really is a shared sense of community. So I'd say, yeah, come and plug in and join one of the free things. I think the next thing is, gosh, I don't know. April 22, I'm having a conversation with Daniel Kwan Watson, who was the first deputy minister in Canada of Chinese descent, and he talks openly about his experiences of what that was like and how he got through and fascinating insider conversation. And then the next one is going to be on, you know, it'll be in May. So you're welcome to join us.
- [40:12]
Holly Gattery
I, I think you're welcome. Should be. I love that you're welcome means to things like come and also a response to thank you, which feels like such a sitting vibe for the entire space that you occupy, which is of gratitude and community. And I, I love that. That's, that's the Holly's poet brain talking to everybody there. I'm sorry you're not going to get rid of it. It's, it's constantly working overtime whether I want it to or not. My last question for you, Anahid, is what are you working on now? If anything new, you're taking a well deserved break from, I mean, a break as much as you can. You're constantly moving and shaking.
- [40:54]
Anahid Deshgard
Yeah, I am. I am. The next book is something around grief. I always felt like there's four books and so the specter of the fourth book haunts me. But I don't quite yet have the form, which is hard for me because I've been constantly in some stage of writing over the last 11 years. But I feel so full of grief on so many different levels right now. I'm just trying to work my way through it and somehow I feel like the next and probably last book that I write will be around that.
- [41:27]
Holly Gattery
Thank you so much for joining me today on mbn. Anahid, everyone. You can get Anahid Dash Dart's incredible book Fire and Silence from anywhere books are bought or borrowed. Anahid, I hope I have you back to talk about this fourth book whenever it materializes for you.
- [41:46]
Anahid Deshgard
Halei, I have to. I love speaking with you whenever we get the chance and huge call out to you for your writing and also all that you do to support the diversity of Canadian writers in all their forms. It's been a pleasure being here.
- [42:03]
Holly Gattery
Thank you so much.